Now it’s time for all the stuff I don’t figure on making full posts out of, with the spiffy graphic by Matt English (aka @mattomic). It’s your Mid-Afternoon Snack…

Craig Robinson of Flip Flop Fly Ball is taking his awesome work to Getting Blanked, debuting his biweekly fortnightly infographic extravaganza yesterday with a decidedly non-graphic infographic on the cubic capacity of Rogers Centre.

Catch Craig on the latest FanGraphs podcast, as well.

Seems like yesterday I wasn’t the only one being cranky, as Parkes refuted the sportswriter’s favourite old canard, “it’s not your money,” at Getting Blanked, while in that same corner of the interweb, Drew thanked Geoff Baker for his concern, with enough sarcasm that, if it were beer, would have filled Rogers Centre– an impressive feat (see above).

Could it be that the MSM wailing about Rogers from Cathal Kelly of the Toronto Star and Steve Buffery of the Toronto Sun was partly to blame for our fits? In a word, yes.

Jonathan Mayo of isn’t terribly high the Jays’ high-end prospects, with just four among his top 100: Travis d’Arnaud (25), Anthony Gose (57), Jake Marisnick (58), and Noah Syndergaard (95). The Jays didn’t rank among the top ten teams, based on his “prospect points” system, which awards 100 points to the team with the top prospect, 99 to the team with prospect two, and so on.

John Sickels of Minor League Ball looks at Mayo’s list and waxes on a few points– one of them being the one that immediately struck me: what the hell is Manny Banuelos doing at number 13?

All week I’ve been meaning to do something with the just-released ZiPS projections for the 2012 Jays, which are available at Baseball Think Factory, but since nothing has materialized yet, I’m just gonna go ahead and at least link the damn thing for you.

Kevin Gray of the New Hampshire Union Leader and insisting Yu Darvish was a Jay has a Q&A with hot prospect Jake Marisnick at Gray Matter.

Bluebird Banter brings us parts three and four of their interview with Jays’ pitching coach Bruce Walton.

Normally my eyes glaze over at over-long serialized prospects lists, like Jays Journal happens to be doing at the “moment” (read: over the next several weeks), because I just couldn’t possibly be bothered to give a shit about the background of guys who will be lucky to one day make it to double-A. I’ll catch up when it maybe looks like they’re going somewhere, thanks. That said, Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus called Jays Journal’s number 41, Eric Arce, his sleeper, so I figure it’s worth a read.

By way of NotGraphs, it’s Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun on TVO’s awesome The Agenda with Steve Paikin!

Late addition: here’s the Jays 2012 promotional schedule, for those of you who give a shit about bobbleheads.

Lastly, depth moves! MLBTR tells us that the Jays have signed right-hander Tim Redding, left-hander Bill Murphy and catcher Kyle Phillips. Cue repellant asshole making a sarcastic remark about this being all the Jays could sign this off-season.

Comments (90)

  1. Baker is right though — I mean, the signings of Beltre and Sexson put the M’s back in the discussion for winning the AL West….and then spending money on Figgins and Lee continued that talk…..but it was only talk..alas

  2. Re: Eric Arce. Can you please clarify the correct pronounciation? Humour me, I Irish and a full 90 minutes away from my first Friday Beer.

  3. Unfortunately it is “R-Say”

  4. Close enough for the immature amongst us

  5. Why does Baseball Think Factory call Darren Oliver Buzz?

  6. Cue repellant asshole making a sarcastic remark about this being all the Jays could sign this off-season.”

    Well at least you didn’t let them get into your head this winter.

  7. The Jays’ organization is clearly expecting higher attendance this year with most give aways going to the first 20,000 fans instead of 10,000 like most previous years.

  8. Cue repellant asshole:

    That’s ballshit man, freaking ballshit!

  9. Try providing a link sometime, you fucking imbecile.

  10. And just think….if they had spent big on FAs, there wouldn’t have been enough money left over for the extra 10,000 Brett Lawrie bobbleheads. That’s like an extra 50 grand right there….at least!

  11. Just throw Mayos list away. Jays have a top three system perhaps consensus number one. Feel real fucking happy today!

  12. Imbicile? Take a look in the mirror. There’s a link at the end of this very blog post courtesy of Stoeten. RTFA next time, asshat.

  13. Yikes dude it’s about bobbleheads….lighten the f*ck up!!!

  14. I’ve never cared for Mayo’s prospect lists since‘s quality of all-around journalism is shit, and this top 100 list just solidifies that belief. Banuelos shouldn’t even be in the top 30, Alonso shouldn’t even be in the top 50, and I don’t see how Dellin Betances even made the list with his insanely high walk rates and average FIP’s.

    I was a little disappointed that Syndergaard was ranked so low, but if he has another big year, he could easily skyrocket into the top 20, for what it’s worth.

  15. And why is Shawn Camp still there + other minor leaguers not in our system anymore?

  16. oveall the promotion seem less cool than last year. There were nice red Jays shirts on Canada Day last year.  Nothing this year. Bobbleheads are OK.

  17. Good to see we’ve got a 5th starter with Tim Redding signing.

  18.‘s Gregor Chisholm doesn’t think Manny Ramirez is a fit with the Blue Jays, as the Jays weren’t interested in Ramirez last year since they want flexibility with the DH spot.  Toronto did send scouts to see Ramirez hit in an indoor cage earlier this month.”

    …FulmerFan #pissnshitpants

  19. Steve Buffery basically does the journalistic equivalent of Peter
    Griffin’s “What Grinds My Gears”. Wouldn’t put any more thought into
    reading his articles as he put into writing them, which is to say none
    at all. It’s like he dropped out of high school and we have to put up with the mush brain that resulted.

  20. Yeah, those red shirts were pretty nice really. Though, IIRC, they didn’t advertise those before the season started, so that sort of thing may happen again. No doubt the Jays see the bobbleheads as a goldmine. 

    I am disappointed to see Tweeting Tuesdays is back for yet another season. It’s annoyingly loud for the sake of promoting nothing really. It would be interesting to see if attendance was actually improved on Tuesdays because of it.

  21. for the sake of seeing Manny in a Jays jersey I hope this is wrong, but it’s probably for the best. He would be the closest we’ve come to getting protection for Bautista though, but barring a season like he had with LA (rather than the Rays) it wouldn’t be much.

  22. We all agree the Jays should invite Jose Canseco to camp right?!/JoseCan

  23. Selig said they are likely to add the extra playoff spot for 2012. I wonder if that changes anything for AA at this point.

  24. link?

  25. I doubt it changes anything at this point. Might change his approach a little bit at the trade deadline. Depending on how the club is doing at that point, how key players are performing (i.e. lind, snider/thames, KJ, JPA, rasmus, new bullpen pieces, entire rotation outside of Romero….fuck we have a lot of question marks, eh?) maybe he gets a little more aggressive in acquiring pieces to help now.
    that being said, everything AA has done since taking over has been calculated and consistent with his overall plan so I dont see him jumping the gun and going into win now mode even if everything seems to be going right 3 months into the season.

  26. I doubt it changes anything at this point. Might change his approach a little bit at the trade deadline. Depending on how the club is doing at that point, how key players are performing (i.e. lind, snider/thames, KJ, JPA, rasmus, new bullpen pieces, entire rotation outside of Romero….fuck we have a lot of question marks, eh?) maybe he gets a little more aggressive in acquiring pieces to help now.
    that being said, everything AA has done since taking over has been calculated and consistent with his overall plan so I dont see him jumping the gun and going into win now mode even if everything seems to be going right 3 months into the season.

  27. Sorry bout the double post….disqus not being friendly for me today

  28. Agreed.  Based on what those GMs were saying in the article, it seems like they’re trying to make the division title and then 
    “If that doesn’t work, then you make your adjustments.”  Adjustments like adding effective relief pitchers at the deadline.  AA should have at least two shippable relievers at the deadline. If we’re not going to be very close, likely we’ll sell those guys for prospects or young/controllable guys or combine them with some other players and make a splash.  

    Having those 1 year special relief pitchers doesn’t really have a negative impact except for the money and if you’re keeping young arms out of the pen.  But it doesn’t look like the young arms will be ready for anything but a September call up this year anyway.  

  29. Tweeting tuesday is a waste of time.

  30. According to MLBTR, Edwin Jackson has multiple ’3 year offers’.

    That’s not as bad as I thought (I figured Boras would get him 5… which he still might)

    I guess we can probably assume the Jays won’t be in on him (since they don’t seem in on any multi year free agents this offseason).  But on a 3 year deal at 12 or 13 mil a year?  He might be a bit overpaid, but I’d think about it.

    I don’t think he alone would put the Jays over the top by any means, but you could probably count on him as a middle of the rotation 200 IP guy.  If some key players step forward, that could be invaluable.

  31. Slightly off topic but, if the Dodgers are going to be worth 1.5 B. What do you think the Jays would be valued at?

  32. Don’t forget there’s something like $500 million in debt that’s included in that purchase price.

  33. Well it looks like AA is done for the winter.  I can’t help feeling disappointed with his performance thus far.  He missed multiple opportunities to dramatically improve the club without depleting the Jays crop of prospects.  Failing to make a competitive offer for Darvish and Fielder is unacceptable.  One has to wonder if Rogers will ever provide the Blue Jays with the necessary funds to compete with the Yankees or Red Sox.

    Although it is possible for other teams to compete for a pennant with a small budget that is not applicable for the Blue Jays.  They play in the AL East and over a 162 game regular season the teams with a combination of good management and high payroll will ultimately prevail.  It’s true the Jays do have smart management but I seriously doubt the ownership will ever give the GM the money needed to win.What is equally disappointing is to read Stoeten tow the company line.  Anyone that regularly listens to the Getting Blanked podcast knows that Andrew was singing a different tune last September.  In fact, his opinion was very similar to those of us who he has thoroughly eviscerated for craving instant gratification.  During one of the parting shots he opined that if Rogers is willing to spend the money you have to think that Fielder would be the ideal place to start.  What happened Stoeten?  What changed your mind and why have you been so eager to criticize those who shared your very same opinion?

  34. Shut up. 

  35. I think AA gets an A plus this offseason.  The new CBA changed the parameters for everyone (extra playoff team, caps on draft, int’l FA, no comp for Type B free agents) and he adapted swiftly and brilliantly to the new system.  So what did AA do?  He adapted and made the best of it.  Think about it for a second.  If you’re going to take the position that the Jays are not going to win the division this year nor compete for a wild card(s) what would you do?  Clearly your only option is to best position the team so it can acquire cheap controllable talent for the upcoming years.  With no ability to work the system by signing players which would likely be Type B the following year, AA had to do something.  He signed and or acquired a ton of relievers on short deals hat would be easy to move at the trade deadline.  That was the best strategy going forward.  Come Mid-July, with the added bonus of a second wild-card team, there will be alot of teams in the hunt looking for bullpen pieces.  Guess who has the most pieces in play, the Jays.  Almost everyone in the pen is expendable and on a short deal.  Its a perfect storm in the making.  Remember, AA can no longer stockpile young talent through the draft, so he will have to trade for it.  Best time to do that is not now, its at the trade deadline.  Only thing I can fault him for is not signing Madsen, but who knows if he wanted to come to the AL East on a one year deal (I wouldn’t in his position).   All the guys in the pen have potential to have big years, and that could be worth a lot.  If Santos is as good as I think he is, he could fetch a ransom at the deadline ( a lot more than what AA gave up).  If Jannsen regains that All Star form, think what he could net you.  Trades are really his only way of getting a windfall of younger players and he has put the Jays in the perfect position to do so in mid-July.  

  36. I agree. The other thing he gives you is competition for the rest of the rotation. At the moment you’d say Romero and Morrow are locks, Alvarez is pretty comfortable and Kyle Drabek, Brett Cecil and Dustin McGowan are competing for the last 2 spots, none of which are approaching sure things. You add Jackson and suddenly it’s Alvarez/Drabek/Cecil/McGowan competing for 2 spots with Hendo having the inside track on one and the other three competing for the final spot. Really increases your chance of having a solid, consistent rotation since only one 50/50 type guy in 3 needs to pan out and if Alvarez really struggles (which given his age it’s a real possibility) they’re a bit more insured.

  37. Yoenis Cespedes is still available.

    just say’n

  38. Yeah.  I mean, he’s not ideal..  But the Jays rotation just has so many question marks.  And since the price of acquiring young starting pitchers through trade seems to have gotten crazy expensive this offseason, Jackson might be an OK option.

    If enough clicks on the team this year, I think they could win 85 to 88 games and maybe get within striking distance of a second WC (emphasis on maybe).  But there’s just so much uncertainty in the rotation, it would be nice to see another guy in there you should be able to count on for 200 IP.

      I’m not worried about Romero or Morrow.  But to me the 3,4,5 spots are HUGE question marks.  I definitely think it’s possible that three of Alvarez, Cecil, Drabek, McGowan, Litsch, Deck, Hutchinson etc will serve as passable 3,4,5s in the rotation.  But it’s a big IF.  And if that group doesn’t really step forward, then the rotation could easily be terrible.

  39. hey Indestructible,

    i haven’t talked to you since you shat on my notion of the jays signing  Francisco Cordero.


  40. Still shitting on the notion.

  41. to me, that appears to be a waste of perfectly good fecal matter , but i guess we’ll find out soon enough.

    btw, what kind of results would you have to see from Coco (conceding of course that some of his peripheral stats will be ugly due to his new found ground ball veteran savy) to make you like it as a one year set up/depth bullpen arm deal?

  42. I’d take his 2009 season with a better walk rate. He doesn’t need the really low ERA though for me to like the signing. Something like:

    K/9 rate of 7
    BB/9 of 2.5
    ERA of 3.00
    WAR over 1
    HR/9 under 0.5

    It’s also natural to assume his LOB% and GB% to come down in 2012, which would result in that ERA coming up.

  43. What’s not ideal about Edwin Jackson? That the team might have to spend something close to the market value to secure his services? He’s been one of the best pitchers in baseball over the last 3 seasons.… 

    I understand all the rambling about being fiscal conservative and whatnot, but when people like Wilner poo poo the notion of Edwin Jackson on a 3 year deal without even being told a price I wonder what the heck this team is doing holding on to Jose Bautista.

  44. It’ll be funny if the Jays do sign Jackson, and we get to watch Wilner flip-flop and call it a great move.

    But then who am I kidding, E. Jax is too expensive for a poor mom-and-pop operation like Rogers.

  45. No, he’ll remain cheap.

  46. That’s the thing: he can disparage a Jackson signing because he knows it would never happen.

  47. Yeah I know and that’s too bad.

  48. Forbes says around 350 million, but to BCE with TSN, they could buy it for 450 million.

    It depends on the owner if they want synergies from broadcast revenues.

  49. Agreed. I was baffled by the PODCAST. I think Parkes was complaining about other Rogers divisions subsidizing the Jays. Stoeten said Rogers bought the Jays to get cheap content for Sportsnet.

    They seem to be confused by business models.

    Rogers used cable monopoly revenue in the 1980′s & 1990′s to subsidize the development of cellular technology which was not profitable at that time.

    Now the cellular divison subsidizes investments in other divisions.

    While each division has an expense budget, some operations are more profitable than others.

    With respect to the hidden money by Sportsnet & the TV contracts, Rogers as an organization as a whole is more profitable because it has access to cheap content.

    The value of the content depends on the competitive nature of the team. If the team had 10 years of 65 wins, then no one would watch the team nor attend the games, so revenues would drop.

    Rogers can choose to pay a nominal amount to the Blue Jays for the broadcasting rights, so that the Jays look poor & qualify for equalization money.

    The Jays could also use it as an excuse not to pay players.

    However,  the tax dept & the accounting community would assign a FMV to the broadcasting rights so that the financial statements make sense.

    If Rogers is serious about the Jays that FMV of broadcasting rights would be allocated to the team, and the team would have a proper amount of revenue that it could spend on payroll.

    Asking the Jays to use nominal broadcast fees to compete with other teams is illogical.

    Gate receipts are 40 million vs 120 million of other revenue, so if the Jays doubl gate receits, they still wouldn’t be able to compete.

  50. Forbes has been proven to be drastically short in it’s valuations of late.


    Good article by Cameron regarding the modern day bullpen. I wonder if the Jays would be better served by the extra bench spot instead of the 7th reliever especially when they have candidates like Litsch and Villanueva that can go multiple innings and be effective. Would it make sense to upgrade a pretty weak bench with another right handed bat?

  52. Isn’t everyday tweeting day?

  53. Off topic here, but any of you guys driving down to Clevelnad for opening day? My gf and I booked our days off and are heading down for Thursday and Saturday games and then driving back in time for Opening day at RC. Boom! Just curious, are autographs and/or pics easier to get on the road? Obviously it’s impossible to get anything signed at the RC because they don’t let you in for fucking batting practice…that drives me fucking insane.

  54. oh hey your going to cleveland, with your gf to boot? make sure you and he hit up east 40th street. pretty damn gay-friendly with cheap booze to boot.

  55. http://seattletimes.nwsource.c

    lol another good article that could be used to describe what’s going on between Jays fans and Rogers/Jays management.

  56. Amazing!  Change the word ‘Mariners’ to ‘Jays’ and you have an identical scenario unfolding.  

    Since I’m partial to the Ms since they arrived in MLB at the same time as the Jays, I wish ‘em well in their rebuild.  And I hope both sets of front offices and GMs know what they’re doing!

  57. Except the Mariners do fucking suck.

  58. It will be tough for the Mariners to beat the 2 powerhouses Rangers & Angels.

    It will be tough for the Jays to beat 2 powerhouses, Yankees & Red Sox.

    It’s up to Rogers whether or not they will allow to fill in gaps if  the prospects don’t turn out.

  59. Wilner quotes Jackson’s recent WHIP #’s as being his reasoning against, fwiw.

  60. They are just where the Jays were a couple of years ago.

  61. Excellent detailed payroll analysis of all of Rogers spending including draft picks, DFA’s etc.

    Overall spending is the same in CDN dollars in 2011 as it was in 2000.

  62. There’s a reason MLB has taken away the tens of millions of dollars in revenue sharing from the Jays in the future, and it isn’t because they’ve been barely making a profit, as the apologists would have you believe. It’s because MLB finally realized that Rogers is making money hand over fist from the Blue Jays and isn’t entitled to any more handouts.

    The whole put the cart before the horse concept would make sense if the Jays weren’t already raking in millions of dollars a year. Attendance and the MLBAM $ alone covers the cost of the Jays payroll, and the other avenues of income (revenue sharing, TV worth, merchandising, luxury suites, in stadium advertising, etc.) do a lot more than cover the cost of running the team; they put the team squarely in the black.

  63. Isabella, how often do you get your anal bleaching done?

  64. His numbers are a little off but it does show that in historical terms they aren’t spending nearly what they were a decade ago when you look at  total dollars. Put that into the context of the much higher revenues the Jays have now and you scratch your head as to why they come up with these attendance caveats. The only reason I can think of for them to say that is the revenue sharing hit they’re going to take over the next four years.

    That said, in 2010 on a revenue per fan basis they spent pretty much the same amount on major league payroll as they did under JPR  in 08 and 09 and even slightly more when you factor in the additional money spent on the draft and international  signings. In 2011 it dropped by approximately 20% year over year but still managed to come close to 2009′s rate once bonus money is factored in.

    It will be really really interesting to see if Rogers is going to eat the revenue sharing loss one way or another in the coming years or if that’s going to negate any expected gains in payroll based on improved attendance. By my reckoning, if they followed their rate of spending per fan of the last 3-4 years it would take roughly 1 million additional fans to make up for that lost revenue sharing money by the start of 2015.

    Without additional input beyond today’s current spending rates you’re still going to be looking at a payroll in the mid 80′s. Personally, I ultimately don’t see them completely flaking out on the Jays, but I have trouble see how they get to the $110-$120 million range without a change in how Rogers has operated since they took over. Pre CBA, a payroll of $110-120 million in 2015 would be roughly$145 – $155 million when you factor in what they were getting from MLB.

    I guess a lot of people haven’t taken into account just how much of a blow the new CBA will be to teams like the Jays. If anything it’s a big win for teams like Boston and New York because Toronto will have to play by the same rules. The competitive equalizer that revenue sharing afforded them will be gone. Spending large in the draft to make up for any payroll differences will also be gone. All that remains is for Rogers to dip into the Jays pockets less than they already do. As fans all we can do is wait and see if that comes to pass.

  65. About as often as you get laid.

  66. Ooooooooh

  67.  its a little over simplified to equate subsidizing cellular technology with subsidizing the jays. The cellular technology department was subsidized to expand and grow a profit centre for the company whereas the jays department is not a profit center but a means to greater profitability for another department (Media). Subsidizing the Jays would provide nowhere near the return on investment for rogers when compared to other departments like cellular technology that have much more potential for growth.

  68. Very good point. The analysis puts an end to the smoke & mirrors that Beeston tried to do in the offseason. Yes, the Jays have doubled spending on the draft, but in the overall scheme the team is spending less than 2010.

    I agree that the MLB has caught on to the Jays. No more gaming the system with draft picks or paying kids over slot.

    The Jays will have to learn to spend money on free agents whether they like it or not.

    The good newsis that fans don’t have to wait 3 or 4 years from the day of the draft till they day they appear at Rogers Centre to find out if they can play or not.

  69. Agreed. We should know by 2014 whether this team is serious about competing.

    I assume Rogers would be smart enough to spend some money on the team in 2013 & 2014 when they make a competitive run at the playoffs & sell half the team to MLSE ( tsn) before the effects of the new CBA take effect.

  70. An additional  minimal investment in the Jays say 20-30 million US per year, would raise revenues by a similar amount to the other divisions, Sportsnet, Rogers cell bandwith etc…

    It makes no sense to me that Rogers was willing to buy MLSE at 20 times ebitda yet are afraid to invest in teh Jays at a much lower ebitda?

    They must realize that sports teams have value.?

  71. It’s not than they aren’t investing, because obviously they are, it’s just that I think it’s silly to tie attendance to increased payroll going forward.  If the time comes for them to get the player and the attendance isn’t there next year are they really going to let the chance slide? That’s what gets me more than anything. It’s not about the way AA is doing the rebuild and it’s not necessarily about not going after guys like Fielder when there is so many questions. Those are completely understandable under the conditions of the rebuild. Just have a real problem with them asking fans to put out first.

  72. You just love making stuff up to suit your argument, don’t you.

    First of all, the Jays did increase payroll this year by 14M … so they were 6M behind this “minimal investment” you are suggesting.

    Your comment about this team spending less this year than in 2010 is just nonsense. Payroll this year is 84M, and was 78M that year. Unless you are predicting the Jays deciding not to spend on IFA’s and the draft this year (which is ridiculous), or to suddenly cut their front office staff (which has been recently grown), then you are just talking out of your ass.

    Why was Rogers willing to spend so much on MLSE? Ummm .. maybe because it is worth that much? I don’t understand why people think the purchase of MLSE is any way whatsoever connected to the Jays.

    Finally, Rogers HAS invested in this team. In 2008. And the team did horribly. So now they are demanding the Jays front office have their shit together before spending big with a proper core and talent pipeline to actually compete.

  73. Rogers has to take some blame for the eventual failures once they decided to spend again starting in 2007. Five years of neglect in terms of payroll and the bare minimum on scouting and amateur development was bound to take it’s toll. Sure Ricciardi implemented those plans but  he was following Rogers parameters when it came to payroll.

    When they did spend there wasn’t the core to supplement those players they brought in. People can’t have it both ways when they defend AA and the current rebuild and not place a large portion of the blame on Rogers for most of the 00′s. Obviously AA is going about things the right way and when all the dollars are added up he’s actually going to have more money than JPR did.

  74. 2008 the jays were 13 th in spending on opening day. That’s not exactly spending big more like average or middle of the pack.

  75. This year they let Darvish & Fielder go because the time wasn;t right. They didn’t wantto sign any big bats to help Bautista. At the very least, I thought they would sign David Ortiz for 2 years. Putting your hopes on E5 & Lind is scary.

  76. In 2008, the team had a rash of injuries to key playes so they didn’t win.

    The money spent on MLSE based on EBITDA shows they are overpaying for sports properties.

    If the Jays wre to receive FMV for the broadcast rights, they could sell the Jays to TSN/Bell for probably close to 500 million or so.

    The overall spending by the team using the COTS figures between 2000-2011 show the team spending about the same in CDN funds. The team generates its revenue in CDN dollars except for revenue sharing which is in USD.

  77. The Orioles are pursuing Koji Uehara of the Rangers as well as McClellan, tweetsKen Rosenthal of FOX Sports.  Their pursuit of a reunion with Uehara could complicate the Cards’ plan to clear money to sign Oswalt.”

    Could there be a more OriLOLes thing than them giving up more to re-acquire Uehara than they received when they traded him?  I can’t be the only one who wants to see this happen.

  78. Ortiz was never even a free agent – you know that, right? He accepted arbitration from Boston.

  79. Ricciardi brought in his own ideas from Oakland as far as drafting and scouting. His vision of college players getting to MLB quicker, and providing less risk vs. HS got him the job. Not the other way around. The 2007 influx of picks/expenditure came due to the free-agent compensation when Catalanotto, Speier and Lilly left.

  80. Ortiz was a FA for over 5 weeks – you know that, right? He accepted arbitration because nobody made him an offer great enough to go elsewhere.

  81. The Jays went out specifically and sought someone who could duplicate what was being done in Oakland with their moneyball philosophy. They wanted a team on a shoe string budget and that’s what they got. It wasn’t until Rogers bought the dome and Ted Rogers himself decided to spend that the Jays got additional money.

    I had a link from an article that has Godfrey stating all of this but it didn’t get saved to my bookmarks when I came across and I’m too tired to find it again. If it wasn’t Ricciardi it would have been another moneyball disciple. The selling point for Rogers was anyone that could do it cheaply and effectively. The less risky college picks got less bonus money than high ceiling high school guys who had college as leverage. It was the efficiency of the day when there wasn’t big money to go around for amateur talent and yes when you needed to get guys to the majors in a hurry because you had no coin for decent free agents.

    Anyway found the article:

    “Things started to change for J. P. when he had more money,” Godfrey
    said. “J. P. performed less efficiently with more money than he did with
    less money.”

    Gord Ash had been fired in September of 2001. The Jays finished
    2002 with a team payroll of $78 million US, $2 million over budget and
    if the Jays brought the same team back, Rogers Communications was
    looking at a cost of $85-to-$87 milllion. That wasn’t going to happen.

    “I had to find a GM, basically, to follow the Oakland A’s
    philosophy of competing with a club with payroll of about $50 million,”
    said the former Jays president.

    “I interviewed J. P. knowing full well that Rogers wanted to
    lower the budget. I wanted a Billy Beane duplicate who could try and
    produce a winner as the team developed its farm system.”

    So, Ricciardi slashed payroll.

    “He came in with a lot of promise,” said Godfrey the day after
    Godfrey’s successor, Paul Beeston, interim CEO, fired Ricciardi Saturday
    in Baltimore.

    “I think in the first few years we followed the plan, between
    2002-05, except for the catastrophic year we had in 2004 due to
    injuries,” Godfrey said.

    The Jays won 78 games Ricciardi’s first
    year and he was given a three-year extension. The next season they won
    86, then they fell to 67-94 in 2004.

    In February of 2005, Rogers Communications bought the SkyDome and
    Ted Rogers pledged to spend $210 million over the next three years.

    “Ted was concerned about buying the dome and not spending,” Godfrey recalled.

    All the free agents had signed by then. The Jays jumped from $45
    million to $71 million in 2006 as B. J. Ryan signed a five-year,
    $47-million deal and starter A. J. Burnett a five-year, $55-million deal
    with an opt-out clause after three years.

    “The opt-out was last minute, suggested by Burnett’s agent,”
    Godfrey said. “You find out after, but we were told St. Louis was
    offering five at $50. We didn’t think we’d get him, so we bumped our

    Godfrey found out later from the Cardinals that they were only offering four years for $40.

    “J. P. was under pressure; he continually talked winning in five
    years,” he said. “J. P. came as a disciple of Billy Beane but he proved
    not to be a disciple of Billy Beane.”

    That pretty much says it all. It was Rogers idea to spend much less first. JP came second. As Godfrey said JP did ok until he got more money. However, as everyone here claims spending on an empty shell was a wasted effort doomed to fail. Rogers gutting of the payroll and the rest of operations the previous 5 years left them in a hole and that I believe was my original point. I never said JP wasn`t without blame, just that a large portion of it falls on Rogers because of their cheapness during those few years. 

    BTW I love the last line of him not being a disciple of Billy Beane. It shows how misinformed everyone was at the time regarding moneyball in general. 

  82. Opps crappy copy and paste results. Sorry folks.

  83. I  didn’t recall it evolving this way. I recalled the Doug Melvin, Dombrowski and Terry Ryan names all being menitoned at the time as people Godfrey was looking at before coming across Ricciardi and his sales pitch. But to thumb through an online copy of  ”Moneyball” and use it as proof I guess, Michael Lewis does put it into these terms. Other GM’s or Exec’s wanted to be able to spend with the likes of the Yankees, and other exec’s told him he should look into Oakland’s model. I recalled it as him just stumbling across him in the interview process. Seems not so. So in hindsight they both got what they asked for/deserved. I don’t remember it ever being said anywhere that Oak/Tor selected college players instead of HS players because of bonuses, I always recall it as quicker ascent time, and better % of turning into useful players, but whatever, no biggie.

    I recall this article i’m pretty sure, but didn’t recall a time ever where Godfrey made digs about him. Which paper and author is it? (edited add-on) …Ah yes, the Bob Elliott article Oct/5/09…. Yes, obviously their relationship had soured by then. Didn’t recall that anymore. What a disappointing and at times ugly tenure that became. It started out so enjoyable and prosperous.

    (You know, you can go back in with the edit feature and clean up whatever you wish eh)

  84. Yes, but there was a period when the Jays could have called him or let him know they could make him an  offer before he accepted arbitration.

  85. Dear “I just wish the Jays had taken the money they’d spent on Oliver/Coco/Frasor and put it towards Oswalt” guy/girl:

  86. State of the Franchise today.  Should be fun.

  87. Anyone on this board going?  I can’t make it and I really really wish I could :(  I would love someone to ask Beeston and AA about the payroll/attendance thing.

  88. I’m going, Izzy. Keep using that cream.

  89. It’s really a great and useful piece of info. I’m satisfied that you just shared this helpful information with us.
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