As always, when I embark on a Today in Morons piece, I’m loathe to send links in the direction of pieces that are lazy, or disingenuous, or otherwise completely miss the mark– especially when, as in this case, it’s really fucking long, and it features a good old straw-manning of a misinterpretation of something I’ve written– but there’s just so much juicy fucking wrongness in the debut diatribe from The Five Tools, and so much that gets repeated by his or her (or, let’s be honest, his) ilk that I can’t not tackle it, even if it’s going to take about fifteen billion interjections.

You see, folks, the Five Tools is worried. Worried that there “is a growing disconnect between the opinions of some in the media in this city and the sentiments of a fan base clamouring for the team’s corporate owners to spend money and bring in the kinds of players that can compete with the Curtis Grandersons, the CC Sabathias and the Adrian Gonzalezes of the world.”

Oh heavens!

What he’s not worried about is that he’s going to mangle a half-assed application of his first year liberal arts major’s understanding of Noam Chomsky about 5000 words into this sucker, and pretty much everything else along the way.

He’s also not worried about kicking things off with a bang, impugning the objectivity and professional ethics of Jeff Blair, Mike Wilner, Bob McCown, anyone who works for a Rogers-owned company– and, now that they’re in cahoots with BCE on the MLSE deal, anyone who falls under that group as well. “Concerns that they might be slinging propaganda for their bosses have been voiced by fans,” he writes– failing to add “who are fucking morons”– “in various forums.”

Wilner certainly seems to have a favourable view of what the club is doing, but has this guy ever actually listened to Blair or McCown? Where is this nonsense possibly coming from, except perhaps the mind of someone who has decided– y’know, if we’re speaking about biases– what he wants to conclude, and objectivity be damned, he’s gonna get there. The media is in cahoots with the theives!

“The purchase of MLSE by Rogers Communications and Bell has created a situation that is really without comparison or precedent in professional sports,” he writes. “These two conglomerates are the poster children of media concentration here in Canada and the vertical integration of the sports franchises with the news media reporting on these properties ought to raise concerns for fans of these teams. Rogers and Bell have a stranglehold on the sports media in the Toronto market, through specialty cable channels Sportsnet and TSN, radio stations Sportsnet 590 The Fan and TSN Radio 1050, and print the new Sportsnet Magazine. Bell also owns CTV and the news programming on this station, while Rogers runs CityTV, an important source of local news for the GTA. Bell and Rogers are also this country`s largest Internet and wireless services providers, which are quickly becoming the new frontier in sports content distribution. It is of great importance then that we understand how Rogers manages the Blue Jays payroll going forward, to ascertain for ourselves whether the corporation`s investment into the team is a good faith attempt to field a winning team.”

Wait… what???

Shitty thing is, he was going somewhere interesting there, and then tosses up an absolute unnecessary curveball at us. Yes, the oligopoly that controls sports teams and the media that covers them in this country is a pretty interesting subject for exploration– not that I’m exactly comfortable talking about it in terms that make it sound actually, y’know, important– but how the fuck does it follow that it’s of “great importance” to determine if Rogers is acting in good faith on the Jays?

And let’s stop right there for a second, because there is an implication within the question that I think is false. There is a horrifically naive conception of “payroll” that some fans have, where it’s expected that it can rise and fall absent of external factors. “We need a bigger payroll!” fans shout. OK. How are you getting from here to there? Who are you spending it on? Who are you going to convince to take your money over someone else’s– over a club with a chance to win, closer to home, a better environment, freer travel? How does the increase in payroll now impact what you’re going to want to do in the future– when some of the young players you’ve been meticulously cultivating start needing arbitration raises and extensions? Will dollars committed from ownership rise as needed, or would positioning ourselves closer to the payroll ceiling simply be limiting our future flexibility?

The answer to the question of why the club didn’t spend this off-season is far more complex than “because Rogers are cheap motherfuckers.”

The Five Tools continues on with another series of canards.

“The idea that the Blue Jays will be able to become ‘perennial contenders’ in the American League East, which Anthopolous has consistently stated is his goal for the team, with a payroll of 70-80 m (projected) is simply unreasonable,” he asserts. That’s probably true, but that’s not what the Jays are attempting to do. Already their payroll is at about $85-million, reportedly, and due to see almost $8-million in raises for 2013 for Ricky Romero, Brandon Morrow and Sergio Santos, not to mention raises through arbitration for guys like Colby Rasmus and Brett Cecil.

More importantly, the 2013 Jays will see young, cheap, talented guys like Travis d’Arnaud, Drew Hutchison, Anthony Gose and Adeiny Hechavarria start to make their way to the big leagues. Is the club being cheap by letting those young potential stars take up spots and not finding someone else to pay to fill out the roster, or are they being completely, inarguably responsible?

These are questions that, apparently, shouldn’t get in the way of a good conspiracy-laden rant.

The Rays

Next we get treated to the old saw about how “yes, the Tampa Bay Rays have a payroll of $41 m, but they’ve only been competitive in the last three seasons after a decade of abject futility. It is true that Andrew Friedman is an excellent GM, but Tampa Bay’s recent successes are mostly the product of being the single worst team in the league for close to a decade.”

We then get the list of high picks who’ve helped Tampa succeed over the last several years, and– of course– no mention of anything that deviates from the hypothesis. Ben Zobrist? James Shields? Matt Moore? Jeremy Hellickson? Wade Davis? Desmond Jennings? Carl Crawford? The 2008 bullpen? Casey Kotchman? Carlos Pena? Edwin Jackson? Matt Joyce? Kyle Farnsworth?

Who are those guys? Everybody knows the Rays are Longoria, Price, Upton, Niemann, and whatever is left from trading Delmon Young.


Our long-winded friend then gets to the real nut of his argument, titling his next sub-section “The Apologists,” referring again to Wilner, McCown and Blair– who inex-fucking-plicably gets stung with this tag because of something Paul Beeston said while being interviewed on the radio.

You see, if you’re not criticising Rogers, you’re apologizing for them– the implication being that you know full well that what you’re doing is dirty and wrong and smothers babies to death in their sleep, but you do it anyway, because… because… because you’re a shill for your employers, or just a big meanie.

“Apologist,” the calling card of the twat who’d prefer it if you don’t use your brain to see how someone else’s ideas differ from his own! (OK, so maybe “moron” is a similar pejorative, but at least I’m trying to air this guy’s actual “arguments.”)

The contrast to the “apologists” are the Toronto Star and Sun writers who have questioned management’s willingness to spend. Sportsnet personalities are the only ones getting access to Beeston and Anthopoulos, we’re told, because long-form interviews are all that count, apparently, and the numerous media scrums and conference calls in which these reporters all participate mean dick all.


Oh, look! Horseshit!

“There are no more Moneyball inefficiencies to be exploited,” we’re told. “GM’s don’t discount walks any longer and they all employ nerdy statisticians compiling esoteric and exotic mathematical formulas to assess the value of players.”

I think someone needs to re-read the definition of inefficiencies!

“And the last CBA has all but eliminated Anthopolous’ other two strategies of gaming the compensation system to pick up extra sandwich picks in the draft and his high risk strategy of paying over slot money for difficult-to-sign draft picks,” he adds, which is true, and which was planned for, and which was never meant to be a strategy Anthopoulos employed in perpetuity. But hey, good line! Stick it to ‘em!

We’re then given some misinformation about the international free agent market (there are limits there in the new CBA too, champ), and reminded that the Jays could have got Michael Pineda for Brett Lawrie, but that he was too important an asset to part with, so the Yankees swooped in with their offer of Jesus Montero. “The Yankees don’t need Montero’s bat because they already have a $100 m in bats in their lineup,” we’re told.

Right. But… in what world does that demonstrate that expendable assets are only created by giant payrolls? No, the Jays aren’t there yet in terms of asset acquisition, but like so many frustrated fan diatribes The Five Tools is making the ridiculous error of assuming that something that isn’t true in the present will never be true in the future. Sure, statements like that ring hollow after all these years of contention being just outside of the club’s grasp, but it turns out fans are actually allowed to use their brains to think about all the reasons why, in this instance, that statement might be true, instead of instantly tuning it out as their minds fill up with inchoate rage.

The Sky Is Falling

Still going! Next up we’re told to contemplate the absolute worst possible disasterfuck of a season. The club is .500, prospects stop developing, Lind and Snider and Thames bust, every starter’s shoulder explodes, we have to face the prospect of trading Bautista?


“And if you’re excited about the talent on the farm,” we’re admonished, “I would remind you that in the mid-1990’s the Jays had Carlos Delgado, Shawn Green, Michael Young, Roy Halladay, and Chris Carpenter all coming up together through the Jays minor league system. Why didn’t we win with this group?”

Um… because they pissed away three of them?

Wait, no! It’s “because the development curves of prospects are notoriously fickle and if you add in the propensity of pitchers to blow out their elbows and shoulders, it becomes positively a crap shoot.”

Well, good thing the current Jays have more than five prospects, right? No! Because “if you`re looking to Drew Hutchison or Noah Syndergaard, Deck Maguire or Chad Jenkins to put this team over the top, it likely won`t be with the current core of players. And if we are watching these pitchers trying to develop at the major league level as the core of our starting staff, it`ll mean that we`ve just suffered through another half decade of painful mediocrity.”

Because, y’know, Romero and Morrow (and Alvarez) aren’t already there. And because young pitchers always take forever in developing. And because, since they haven’t spent on a big free agent pitcher yet, they obviously never will!

Jesus fuck!

The Budget

And then we get to the budget– including another stop in horseshit land, which is the Jays’ supposed $70- to 80-million payroll, and whether this is an acceptable number, regardless, as always, of what additional money could have been wisely spent on– and bullshit about market size, bullshit about TV broadcast rights money.

“Rogers can frame the accounting of the revenues they derive from the Blue Jays to say pretty much whatever they want and the company hasn’t been forthcoming about the team`s finances and likely never will,” he writes. “If you consider, however, the market size and the ratings numbers for Jays games on television and radio, when you factor in all the cheap programming Rogers is able to create around the Jays broadcasts, the national audience the Blue Jays have access to, when you consider the value add of free streaming of all Blue Jays games for Rogers Internet subscribers, when you add to the ledger, or count all the traffic this team generates for Internet properties like, and so forth, you don’t have to be a forensic account to see that Rogers is making out like bandits from the Blue Jays.”

It’s not an unfair conclusion. It’s just… so what? Yes, Rogers has money. Yes, they make money on the Jays. Yes, you want them to spend it. Problem is, you want them to spend it in some kind of fantasy world vacuum where money goes in and a great baseball team comes out the other side and nobody has to worry about what happens if Anthopoulos Ricciardis the money into bad assets and Rogers won’t let spending spiral out of control to fix it.

Worst case scenarios are only good for putting apologists in their place, apparently.

The Cart and the Horse

Ahhh, and we finally get to me. (And let’s be honest, that’s all this was really about anyway, right?)

“Andrew Stoeten of Drunk Jays Fan fame, unabashed imbiber of beer and writer of a profanity laced and oft entertaining Blue Jays blog, has come up with a rather curious analogy to refer to management`s logic on spending and attendance, referring to the problem as ‘putting the cart before the horse.’

Go on…

“In this analogy, it is the fans, apparently, that are the horse pulling the ‘cart’ of the team, or as he put it ‘the revenue horse driving the money cart.’ In other words, arguing that the team should invest to improve the team is like putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

Um… no. Thanks for playing. Nice try.

For one, I don’t know where I said “the revenue horse driving the money cart,” but a Google search of that quote turns up nothing. Regardless, the notion is far more complex than what’s being presented, because the notion of “revenue” when it comes to the Jays is, as we’ve discussed, complicated. It’s not about waiting for gate revenue, that’s for sure, because it’s just not that big of an income source. The idea behind using the idiom is to suggest that it’s unwise to start asking Rogers for huge outlays of cash without a roster in place that can ensure ownership’s money is well-spent. If Rogers spends $200-million on a player and it doesn’t get the Jays into a pennant race, doesn’t fill the Dome from mid-season onwards, does that not impact the company’s willingness to spend further later? Does that put a rope around Alex Anthopoulos’s neck– perhaps sooner than he needed to? Does it not immediately make the near-term his focus, at the expense of the long term strategy he’s employed to this point?

Maybe in the fantasy world where Rogers is the club’s benefactor and not the primary shareholder it does, but that’s about it.

“Apparently, according to Mr. Stoeten, the fans of this city have to collectively decide en masse to start spending their hard earned money to attend Blue Jays games in order to give Rogers the wherewithal to improve their product.”

No, they’ll do that naturally as the club gets better– as it has been, immensely, under Anthopoulos. Just because they haven’t improved at a fucking crybaby-approved rate of instant gratification doesn’t mean they’re not far better than two years ago and still on the rise.

“Even when Rogers fields a team consisting of the likes of Jayson Nix, Corey Patterson, Dana Eveland and Jo-Jo Reyes? Really Mr. Stoeten? Even if the team has no real chance of making the playoffs? Even when the franchise hasn’t sniffed a playoff or division title since 1993?” According to this logic, we can expect before long for Rogers to start berating the fans for forcing the company to put a crappy team on the field.

Oh, fuck off.

“Alex Anthopolous expressed similar sentiments in his January 12th interview with Bob McCown in which he confirmed that more money would be put into the payroll once the teams starts winning. But doesn’t this only bring us back to the same fundamental question – how do we start winning without spending?”

By being patient you fucking mope!

Big Words, Little Logic

Mr. Stoeten is also of the opinion, for some inexplicable reason, that the fans should not expect Rogers to reinvest their television revenues into the team simply by virtue of the fact that Rogers purchased the team:

“ it’s hopelessly naive to expect Rogers to undermine the entire point of their ownership by handing the Jays a cheque comparable to ones being given out by regional TV networks south of the border.”

So by this logic, a person could purchase the New York Yankees, reduce it to a Triple A team roster, and pocket all the profits simply because he owns it? Owners owe nothing to the fans or the city? There is no ethical obligation on the part of Rogers to reinvest earnings into the team and make a good faith effort to win? Is this because Rogers is a cable company and cable companies possess some innate right to make obscene profits? And why precisely would it be hopelessly naïve to think so? What prevailing business logic is Mr. Stoeten alluding to here that the rest of us are apparently unaware of? Or is it that Mr. Stoeten has simply been given a privileged glimpse into the ruthless mendacity of the business culture at Rogers and is merely sparing us the futility of expecting Rogers to behave like a responsible corporate citizen?

Good lord. First of all he’s missed a crucial point, which is that I didn’t say it’s naive to expect Rogers to reinvest TV revenues into the club, I said it’s naive to expect them to hand the Jays a cheque equivalent market rates for broadcast rights.

Second of all, holy shit. For someone about to start pulling Noam Chomsky out of his ass, The Five Tools sure doesn’t have a handle on how corporations work. I’m no economy talkin’ guy, but no, there’s no ethical obligation for Rogers to put a winning fucking baseball team on the field. Their obligation is to the bottom line of their business. You don’t have to like that, but it is what it is– and it ain’t rocket surgery.

Also: bravo to the shit dribbling out of your mouth in the form of that last sentence, my friend. Bra-vo.

“Manufacturing Consent”

“Andrew Stoeten isn’t in the employ of Rogers (he works for the Score) but his bizarre defense of Rogers’ management of the Blue Jays is revealing of the lengths one is forced to go to in order to justify this team’s current payroll.”

Air. Tight.

Never mind that I actually think Rogers should spend more, and was in favour of signing Fielder in a perfect world. But sadly, that world is one where if the contract turns sour ownership will be loose enough with payroll to not let it inhibit future spending, and like the skeptic that I am about Rogers, I’m not ready to believe that world exists, and I certainly can’t kill Anthopoulos and Beeston for not being ready to believe that world exists.

Yes, friend, I too have massive doubts about Rogers’ willingness to do right by this franchise in the long-term, which is why I can get behind a strategy that insulates the club’s operations from relying too greatly on Nadir Mohamed giving the thumbs up or thumbs down to doling out more investment capital. The thriftier they are, the more prudent they are, the more strongly they build up the core of the franchise, the more likely it will be that, a) they will become competitive via a Rays’-like model, b) free agent players will want to come here, and will do so without huge overpayments, and c) Rogers will be willing to spend the money, and spend more still when it doesn’t work out.

Upping the ante now, bringing on genuine internal pressure to start seeing results– not bullshit posturing fan and media pressure that will evaporate with the next string of victories– isn’t really in Alex’s best interest or the long-term interest of the project he’s embarked on– the one he sold Rogers on when he took the job. Sure, it’s in the interest of the fans who want to see as good a club as possible as soon as possible, but those interests don’t necessarily have to overlap, not because anybody is making excuses for Rogers being cheap pricks, but precisely because we’re concerned they’re going to be down the line– especially if they’re asked for a huge outlay of cash at this point in the process and get discouraged by the return on that investment.

Is it possible that the journalists are beginning to behave like their nightly news counterparts, manufacturing consent as it were, doing their masters bidding while the parent company packages us, the fans, together like so many flocks of muttering sheep, to sell to their advertisers, reaping untold profits?

Um… no?

And… ya, he goes on, gets a bit wistful, talks Leafs and Raptors, before finally wrapping the damn thing up. And… holy shit, I can’t do this anymore. My post is as massive as his– and frankly, it kinda makes me respect the effort The Five Tools put in, even if I would have preferred my position not be misconstrued and to have been given something more than the typical off-season furious commenter blather.

Comments (135)

  1. Well played, sir. Well played.

  2. That really wasn’t worth all of that time and effort on your part, was it?

  3. Wow. slow clap. Im surprised i made it the whole way but glad I did

  4. Holy motherfucking Christ. I’m glad I didn’t have to read the original text. Stoeten… I hope you can heal from this, quickly.

  5. No mention of him calling Pineda “Pinero” no less than three times?

  6. Just curious is Stoeten giving credit to the “Tampa made the playoffs 3 of 4 years with sub $50 M payrolls so why can’t we?” argument or not. I can’t tell which side of the sarcasm fence he’s on there. I know that they endured a decade of futility but in that time we were in the same amount of playoff races as them – 0.

  7. is it written by five guys who already know that they are tools?

  8. So fucking tired of the off-season 

  9. Is “The Five Tools” blog title a reference to the number of authors of that tripe (ie. three musketeers, The Four Tops (definitely not bottoms, heyo))

  10. That was certainly a lot of words.

  11. I feel like I’ve read this before…

  12. [clear throat] Ladies and gentelemen, please welcome to the stage . . . The Five Tools (Casper, Jasper, Lippy, Trog and Bo).

  13. Why the fuck can’t we just be excited for the 2012 season? 

  14. Agree with most of what you said, but I greatly disagree with your comment AA’s draft exploitation. You said that AA planned to not continue to do this in perpetuity. What makes you think that? If the CBA stayed the same, why wouldn’t AA have kept rolling over the bullpen to gain compensation for type-B free agents?

  15. lol you should feel impressed that he’s created a brand new blog to argue his points with you.

  16. AA said last night that they loaded up on draft picks for the past couple years because they knew the CBA would be changing, and they wanted to load up on prospects while they still could.

  17. I have to ask how did you know the blog was there? Did he send you a link?

  18. Occupy the skydome

  19. Agreed and you have to look at the context he was able to acquire all those picks. If they are going to contend with a young team and a large group of core players the picks would have dried up all on their own in time.

  20. Can’t be, tools are at least good for something

  21. We’ve definitely got enough fans who support what the Jays are doing, but they don’t really feel like buying tickets yet.

  22. While I certainly agree with Stoeten’s position on the whole “need for instant gratification” point, I think there is a practical reality that is overlooked. As incredibly annoying as all of the whinning and sniveling about the payroll is, the reality is that is can really only help and not hurt. While Rogers bottom line is only fractionally tied to gate revenues, there is no denying that they are at least aware of their perceived public image and have an interest in improving that image. A company like Rogers, who sells a separate product and relies on goodwill,  has more to lose from a tarnished image than a franchise owned by a private citizen. Public outcry over spending can therefore only encourage them to spend more. How much encouragement it provides is ultimately tied to the dollar figure they attach to that public opinion and goodwill. It should not be forgotten that copanies invest millions in forstering goodwill.  It is difficult to imagine a situation where encouraging them to spend more is a bad thing. The exception, as Stoeten points out, would be if that encouragement would lead to albatros contracts that cripple the teams flexibility and re-tighten the purse strings. The ultimate question then, is whether AA can make the right deals with an increased payroll (unlike past GMs who need not be named). I, for one, would trust AA to not spend found money foolishly.
    If you agree that Prince Fielder would have been a positive signing then you can’t really complain about the public outcry over the lack of spending. That outcry reminds Rogers of the benefit of investing in the team. It certaintly does not make Rogers any less likely to spend money.
    Cite the annoyance of the impatience crying all you like, but don’t suggest that it is hurting the team.

  23. AA just remember: If you listen to the fans, you’ll be sitting with them. It’s fucking simple, spend big money on every mediocre free agent you can and you end up like the O’s.

  24. Okay, that’s it.  I’m tapping out.  I’m sick of the Roger’s isn’t spending enough, the MSM media doesn’t get it, the bloggers are apologists, fans are too patient, fans are too stupid, blah, blah, blah, blah discussion.  It was fun and interesting for a while, and all the talk and coverage is great, but I just want them to start playing the games.

  25. Look, I get you Stoeten, and I agree with a bunch of what you’re saying, but here’s the problem I have, “
    there’s no ethical obligation for Rogers to put a winning fucking baseball team on the field. Their obligation is to the bottom line of their business. You don’t have to like that, but it is what it is– and it ain’t rocket surgery.”
    Yeah, fine, there’s not ethical obligation for them to put a winning team out there.  But why the fuck should any of us spend any of my time, money and effort on the Jays if I didn’t think that they are eventually going to open up the purse and spend the money.  Because that’s what its going to take for them to put together a winning team in the AL East.  If I think that Rogers is only concerned about their bottom line and that they’ve figured out they can make more money as a 81-81 team with an $80 million payroll than they can with a playoff team with a $120 million payroll, then shouldn’t I just stop and pick a new team right now.

    I’m not saying that’s true, Beeston and AA have said the money will be there when we need it, but its hard watching a winter where it sure looked like we needed the money, and it sure looked like there were the type of players who could help available to help both next year and going forward, and not a damn thing happened.

  26. I stopped a ways in but was that post all about that one guy? Some guy, who until just now, I had no idea existed? 


  27. I just read both the DJF post, and the offending text.  Stoeten makes a great point when he talks about the “fantasy world vacuum”  that people seem to think exists when it comes to a higher payroll.  Money does not necessarily equal on field performance.  VERNON WELLS for Christ sakes!   A “win now” move like signing Fielder or Darvish is a bad idea when you have arguably the best farm system in baseball.  Put another way, we as fans want a $130 million dollar payroll because we think it will mean $130 million worth of performance.  Take $24 million of that payroll and assume that years 6-9 of Fielders contract you get about $8 of performance.  That’s $16 million you can’t spend to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox in 2017-2020.  

    The farm system has been lauded this off season, and that is something to be excited about.  The team is young and full of talented players, several of them have struggled to live up to the potential many independent baseball commenter’s have suggested they possess, read: Snider, Rasmus after he got to the Jays, Morrow, but also consider the fact that it takes guys different amounts of time to figure things out, so it’s very possible that there is some great play about to happen in Toronto.  
    I am often shocked by the short-sightedness of people who criticise where this team is going. We should all be excited about how much fun it’s going to be in spring training to maybe see or hear a little about the prospects.

    Today at work I said with excitement, “Tomorrow is February 1st, and pitchers and catchers report in February”.

    I’m checking the mail regularly for my Season Pass.  

    I’m staring out the window, waiting for spring.

  28. While I don’t know who this guy is (and I haven’t bothered to read that enormous diatribe …at least not yet), I do appreciate both the effort and the sentiment. More people should be questioning and criticizing what Rogers has done with its baseball team over the last decade, not fewer.

  29. I understand the realities of corporate ownership but why does Rogers have to get good value from their investment before the fans get good value from theirs? I wanted to puke reading about season ticket holders who seemed ecstatic the Jays didn’t make any major steps to contend this off-season. 

  30. Never mind that I actually think Rogers should spend more, and was in favour of signing Fielder in a perfect world.”

    Stoeten, quit being a bitch. Every fucking day you take a laughably condescending attitude towards anyone who hints at Rogers spending more than the absolute minimum, and to say you were even REMOTELY in favor of signing Fielder under any conditions makes you a fucking liar. Don’t get mad because your consistent and transparent trolling (“Halladay sucks!”) has some people thinking you really are that stupid. 

  31. Geez Stoeten. You really got wound up over that one.

    I only have one argument to make. I take issue with the statement that ‘what happens if Anthopoulos Ricciardis the money into bad assets and Rogers won’t let spending spiral out of control to fix it.
    Equating spending more with a Riccardi-like outcome isn’t fair. In fact I would suggest that AA deserves better from you. Why would you believe or fear that if AA was told by Rogers to expand team salaries to $150 million (as an example) that he would follow the same path that JPR stumbled through? Isn’t there another potential outcome? One where a smarter and more capable GM becomes free to acquire a better calibre of player?

    Other than that it was nice to see your passion. To write that many words on your Apple I-pad must have taken a fair bit of work.

  32. He would be in favor of signing Prince in a perfect world but it is not a perfect world so he insults anyone who thinks it might be anything close to a perfect world (“perfect world” meaning an owner who cares about winning as much as the diehard fans)

  33. Bet you’ve been looking for something like that to pick apart for a while, congrats.

  34. The other part that amused me was Stoeten getting all butthurt because The Five Tools correctly pointed out that he agrees with Beeston that the fans must show up in greater numbers before additional payroll is sent. He clarified his stupid fucking opinion and that he was in sloppy lockstep with Beeston less than 36 hours ago, but I guess he was “trolling” then, too. 

  35. 9 years and 214 milllion.
    IF he accepted it.IF he wanted to play for the Jays.IF he wanted to go to a team in the middle of a rebuild.
    The price would’ve come at  a premium. Think 10 at 250.
    Possibly hindering the resigning of players in the future.
    And how much crying would you be doing if the Jays missed the playoffs again.
    I can hear it now.
    “oh no they’re wasting Prince’s good years”"sign more FA’s before both Bautista and Prince demand a trade”
    With the Jays record of the last two years,do you really think they are only one or two players away?
    Use some common sense.

  36. dude, you just beat up a child. i know he made you mad, but . . . you let that madness blind you! in future, save it for the real douches – the ones who work for ESPN, and Damo.

  37. If the Jays are an 85 win team as it stands right now (and even the biggest Tampa Bay Rays-obsessed, Jose Bautista-doubting rebuilding fanatic in Dustin Parkes suggested today that they were), then yes, the Jays are literally one of two players away from being a contender.

    At this point, with their cost-controllable talent scattered across the roster, contending for the Jays isn’t a matter of capability, but of willingness. If Rogers wanted to spend the money to push the team over the top, they could have this offseason.

  38. AA says lots of things… but do you really believe that he’d stop manipulating the system? They may have suspected this would happen eventually, but AA was most certainly going to continue to get free draft picks as long as he could.

  39. First, although we have disagreed before and respect that we have a difference of opinion.
    NEVER use Parkes as support for your side of the discussion.
    It kills your credibility and pisses me off.You can’t be fucking serious as to use Parkes opinion to justify a point of arguement. Do you realize how many times he’s been wrong? How little he knows about the game?

    That leaves your opinion that the Jays could’ve spent their way to contention, after being an 81 win team.
    In my opinion, your opinion is wrong and misguided.Blinded by your obsession with payroll and without regard to the players on the field or the sophmore manager who’s still learning on the job.

  40. Oh mother of fuck. Please, please, please pick a new team. Agonizing.

  41. hmm…..

    Regional TV revenue vs. CBA Revenue Sharing rules:
    1.  If Jays wanted to continue to receive revenue sharing payments their Regional TV rights deal would need to be vetted +validated by MLB to ensure rights are not below market value.  
    2.  Current benchmarks Angels $3B and Rangers $1.5B…..Rangers are receiving $1M per game for regional TV rights from FSN with a market much smaller than Ontario (not counting national Cda TV audience).  $80m/yr for 80 games.
    3.  Toronto opts out MLB revenue sharing program as part of new CBA, regional TV rights excluded from inspection of MLB.
    4.  Rogers broadcasting 162 Jays games in 2012.
    5.  Debt free stadium ($25M).
    6.  Capital appreciation franchise $150M -to min $500M+
    7.  Additional revenues concessions, merchandising, attendance/gate, Radio advertising, Print advertising.

    Wish someone asked Beeston/AA re: above before going down the increased attendance =  increased payroll rat hole. 

  42. Yes, I realize that he’s wrong more often than he’s right and recognize his level of knowledge of the game. The point, though, was that even one of the biggest Jays cynics believes this team has 85 wins in them.

    Considering their 81 win total with a bunch of scrubs on the team for half the season in 2011, I don’t see why anybody would think that 85 wins wasn’t a significant possibility. My personal projection (assuming no other additions) at this point would be 84.

  43. So mind numbing. Even if the team was owned by one person the strategy at hand is fucking perfect. The most beautiful rebuild in recent memory sans any fucking need for Prince Fielder or Mat Latos or any celebrity ball player you can name right now. You buy the over priced rock stars at the end of the very end of the rebuild.

  44. You think it would take $250 million for the Jays to sign Prince? You’re out of your goddamn mind. Pujols got $254 over ten years. You think players hate Toronto that much?
    I, apparently unlike you, do not fucking work in the accounting department at Rogers Communications. I think like a fan. I’d rather have Prince at first than Lind. If the Jays can’t resign players in the future it would be because they are fucking cheap.
    I will cry like a baby when the Jays miss the playoffs this year. I actually care whether the Jays are competitive this year. I’m actually a fan who isn’t okay with the uncompetitive loser mentality that so many fans seem to think is just super.
    Maybe the Jays aren’t one or two players away right now but wouldn’t it be great if for once, management said, “alright, this is the year. We’re making the playoffs this season.” Instead, you can hold on to Beeston’s empty promise that the Jays will make the playoffs a couple times in the next five years. Those are the quotes champions are made of.

  45. Rebuild? Live in the fucking now, man.

  46. Ladies and gentlemen, one of The Five Tools. How are so many thick skulled, ADD
    addled neanderthals attracted to such a smart ball club, especially
    when their lives would be so much easier if they’d simply dawn the
    straight brim Yankee glitter cap they were born to tilt to the side of
    their head? Mother fucking confounding.

  47. Everyone was saying Fielder would not get a deal over 6 years this late. Yet he got 9/214 with a contending team.  What do you think,oh great wise one, it woulda taken to get Fielder to play for the Jays.It would need an offer above that,don’t you think?
    And not a little bit,a lot a bit.
    You’ re a fan who’ll cry when the Jays miss the playoffs this year?
    Good for you.
    I’ll be the fan enjoying the rebuild. Enjoying the young stars emerge.Enjoying the Jays competing maybe not just this year but EVERY year.
    When the jays won in 93 they had 7 different players than the 92 team.
    When Gillick was asked which was his favourite team,92 or 93. He said neither.
    His favorite team was 91.
    Year after year from 85 to 93,you knew the Jays had a chance to be there at the end.
    That’s what I want. Year after year of excitement.

  48. I want year after year excitement too. I just don’t care whether it’s done on the cheap.

  49. Ah the paradox of baseball.
    Would Fielder produce better than Lind?
    Would he produce the extra wins needed? Does fWar translate into genuine wins?
    Doubt it.
    Fielder adds extra pop with his bat but not so much additional with his defense.
    The Jays had that extra pop when they led the league in homeruns in 2010 and finished 4th.
    They needed pitching.They might have it this year,they might not.They should have it in the next couple of years regardless.
    Until that happens, having the extra pop that Fielder provides, is a waste of time and money.
    It’s like pissing in the wind.
    Just my opinion.

  50. Hey, it’s Roy Hobbs guy!

  51. Stoeten, you sound like an apologist for Rogers. They’re making a ton of cash off the Jays. Good for the mainstream papers like the Star for ripping them. This apologizing for one of the wealthiest fucking corporations in North America is exactly how some dipshit like Stephen Harper gets elected. Rogers doesn’t have our home budget. This isn’t your fantasy team. Holy shit, it’s like cheering for the Bills and their dipshit greedy owner.

  52. holy shit that’s a lot of words that really isn’t worth reading

  53. So, there’s that.

  54. That makes absolutely no sense. You speak as if spending big money on a free agent guarantees wins or is a guaranteed improvement of the team, but that is not ever the case is it? Would spending god knows how much on Prince or whoever guarantee the Jays make the post season? I say no, particularly considering their immediate competition. and I say that through the shrewd moves AA has made so far, he’s earned the right to see his vision through for another season at the very least. Just because the collective fan base is bitter that they had to endure Interbrew and the payroll slashing that went on there and then 7 years of Riccardi doesn’t mean AA should alter what he is doing one bit. As fans, we should enjoy the ride… watching these young players develop. That’s part of the romance of baseball. That’s what will make it sweeter when you eventually do start to win.

  55. We keep running into dichotomies this offseason and there seems to be a level of insecurity that makes it difficult for either side to acknowledge a valid claim by the other.
    A lot of what Geoff Baker spews might be bullshit, but there absolutely is some truth to his arguments. His assertion that certain people on the interwebs give the impression that they want a cost efficient team more than a contender so they can play along on their blogs is apt, in my opinion. Explicating the minutia and turning it into something more complex than it is seems to be is the basis of a cyber career.
    Fullmer Fan consistently makes good points, yet many of his arguments are overlooked to fit a narrative that suggests continually eviscerating Rogers is misguided. Yet it is because of this redundancy that certain people have evolved their opinions to something closer to Fullmer Fan’s, in my opinion. Does he not deserve acknowledgement for this?
    All this is to say that The Five Tools is a fucking idiot and working backwords from his or her pre-conceived manufacturing consent premise produced a fucking illogical asswipe of an article.

  56. Typically, I think the book of moron posts work better in criticizing something stupid that someone says on a national level about a purely baseball related topic. This kind of comes off as two bloggers throwing shit on each other about the stupid dichotomy that’s emerging about feelings on Rogers owning the team. 

    That said, as someone who comes down more on the Stoeten side of things than the five tools side of things, I think Stoeten is generally right when it comes to pissing on some of the more egregious leaps of logic and wankery that the five tools post has in abundance. 

    Just a suggestion though, could we maybe cool it on suggesting anyone is impatient here? If someone gives a shit about the Toronto Blue Jays in 2012, whether rationally or irrationally, they’re not an impatient person. 

  57. I strongly agree…while he may be “wrong” in some of the things he says, it’s definitely essential to have people questioning an ownership. It sparks interest, it keep ownership on their toes, and he does make some decent points. I agree with many (most) of your points as well Stoeten, but I see great value in being able to view the team from both sides of the fence. He did seem to go at you pretty hard though lol, you guys should settle it up in the street!

  58. Coming this season from the CBC – Blogger WARs! Dueling banjos and cutting wit while decked out in the latest hipster fashions

  59. I don’t really have a dog in this fight but Rogers is one of the worst offenders in the vile telecommunications industry of this country. They’re vermin supreme and they’re more likely to crush and swallow AA’s soul then he is to build a contender. 

  60. Ahhhh, Señor Stoeten.

    I’ve yet to digest this new and greater anti-Rogers fervour – though I’m sure it reached a new depth some time before the Darvish devilry – but I do feel some discomfort at your position on the ownership. I can object to a pair of your points straight away, though:

    “– not that I’m exactly comfortable talking about it in terms that make it sound actually, y’know, important –”

    First, this stuff is important, at least to all of us. I’d say you are being disingenuous in implying otherwise. Yes, there are potentially more grave consequences to this kind of media concentration, but sports remain a touchstone in this society and rather symbolic of the wider ramifications, I’d say.

    Amidst all the lionizing of Anthopoulous that does occur on this forum, I’d be cautious about using terms like “untradeable” around free agent contracts. Vernon Wells for Christ’s sake, and so on.

    Interesting times.

  61. Perhaps, when you spend so much time pursuing a passion, only to profess discomfort at its lack of importance, you have managed to define “hipster”.

    (Stoeten, be who you wanna be. But when you feel that trolling urge to bash Leafs fans, who comprise a fair number of this blog’s readers, I think we need to take the piss out of you…)

  62. It’s healthy to question the motives of the owners of your favourite team, especially with the Jeff Lorias and Donald Sterlings out there. However, just simply complaining about them not spending money like drunk sailors on long-term contracts without using any real arguments to back up otherwise is stupid. Stoeten is not defending Rogers as a corporate entity. He’s simply giving arguments as to why it’s extremely short-sighted to ask your owners to spend wildly when there’s no guarantee that it will take an 81 win team to the playoffs this year. It’s true that Rogers are fucking greedy pricks, but I would much rather have them open the wallet later rather than now, followed by a puckering of the asshole in two years because adding Prince Fielder and Yu Darvish didn’t get them to 91 wins. This Five Tools guy has every right to question Rogers and there’s no arguing that. However, if he’s going to write a 5,000-word Greek tragedy outlining the ills of “Vertical Integration, Baseball and You” then he better come with better, more sound arguments than “if everything goes wrong, the Blue Jays will be bad”.

  63. It’s just becomming increasingly less and less fun reading about the Jays this offseason. I mean, any media coverage for the Jays in January is always good news and it seems there has been more interest in the jays this off-season than there has been in the last few, but isn’t there anyone out there that actually looks at what we DO have and gets incredibly excited??

    If AA pulled the trigger on the trade for Colby Rasmus in say november instead of August we’d all be sitting here saying what a great offseason it’s been, instead people want to dismiss that move as garbage because the guy performed poorly in 35 games against arms he’d never seen with an injured wrist all the while watching his former team rip it up in the final month of the season…isn’t it fair to say, playing for a non-playoff team at that point, justifyably his head wasn’t in the right place? And now we have him on a 1 year deal where he has to prove himself to get his pay day…I smell break-out.

    Morrow and Cecil and Drabek were notorious fly ball pitchers last year and I can’t tell you how many plays I watched Patterson or Davis botch costing us runs and inflating the ERA of the back end of our rotation. Doesnt the fact that Rasmus has top tier defense and the fact that Jose does n0t have to switch from 3rd to RF constantly not greatly upgrade our outfield defense, thus increasing the confidence of our young pitchers?

    Brett Lawrie will man 3rd base all season this year so I don’t think I have to mention what an upgrade that is over Johnny Mac/Mike Mccoy/E5. A full season of Kelly Johnson is an upgrade on Hill as well, I know some of you will point to how much better Hill played for ARI but that point is moot because what he was doing for us was not pretty (and certaining not worth a guaran-fucking-teed 16 million)

    The bullpen, as volatile as bullpens are, sure looks mighty deep on paper and juding by what AA was able to get for the likes of Frasor, Rauch, Dotel, Fransisco when the season was over, it’s pretty interesting to think of what he may fetch from a desperate team with a weak bullpen and playoff hopes for the likes of Cordero, Frasor, Oliver etc especially when teams consider how well that works for St. Louis last season.

    As for payroll, please will everyone just shut the fuck up about the money Rogers is or isnt spending? Everyone was ready to burn Riccardi at the stake because the big dollar signings he made, in hindsight, were awful but at the time he was lauded for finally enticing big name free agents to sign here which culminated in what? we got 2nd place one year and to me that 2nd place finish was no better than 4th. We are building in a similar way to Rays but the diference is when our hot young players become eligible for big paydays Rogers will be there to spend the money to sign them thus likely increasing our payroll to the 120-140 million Beeston has mentioned.

    So people, just fucking relax, it’s January and we can all thank the lord were Jays fans and not Leafs fans drunk on false hope that because their team is on the bubble of the playof race this year that theyre ready for a cup run.

  64. but we did make major steps to contend this season….or havent you been paying attention….Sure Prince looks good in any teams uniform, dont get me wrong Id have crapped myself daily if we signed him, but we were able to adress two major weaknesses from last year, the bullpen and the outfield defense….and we did it without blowing the bank or giving up our valuable prospects….what more do you want? Were building some serious team chemistry which is crucial if you want to win (just ask Boston) If you want your team to blow the bank every offseason, for better or worse, go cheer for the fucking yankees.

  65. As we all know, facts don’t ever sway people’s opinions…. rather, emotion does. Nobody ever reads the fine print, or realizes what a “straw man” argument is. The fan base it restless, and you have people stirring the pot.

    Stoeten seems to be caught in the cross-fires.What this means, I don’t know, but I’m sure that it is something Rogers and the Jays brass is aware of  based upon their comments. 

  66. well said…hey I think I saw that play out somewhere before???…..oh yeah the 85-93 BLUEJAYS!!!. There was a reason we made smart trades and drafted well from 85-90 and learned alot from getting close and losing and then topped it off adding peices like Molitor once we were ready…..and hey wasnt there a guy named Beeston around at that time calling shots too? Weird……

  67. Wow Stoeten, you have shown yourself to be a great writer. As in the Burns documentary baseball reflects modern life. I believe this is true with all major sports leagues.  It’s the elites sucking us dry, cable ,internet etc. masking as entertainment while we sit on our asses and not deal with the real problems facing us.

  68. we did that in 2006 and made big free agent splashes and got to 87 wins and 2nd place in the AL East and…..didn’t make the playoffs.

  69. I was just waiting for someone to try and connect the lack of spending of Rogers to the election of our country’s leaders…Bravo….you are officially the moron of the day.

  70. I dunno.  I know it’s the off-season and we’re all bored to tears.  But that was kind of like taking an axe to a meringue.

  71. Methinks that the lady doth protest to much.

  72. Full of win. That’s all I should have to say about this post. Liberal arts majors who want to get their Chomsky on while simultaneously throwing abso-fucking-lutely everybody under the bus deserve an e-donkey punch. That said, I do have to step back and admire the staggering and willfull ignorance it takes for Mr. Tools to so completely misrepresent so many people all at once. It takes a special kind of intellectual self-groper get that done.

  73. Stevo, I’m sorry you can’t make the connection between a government that protects big business by having people focus on shit that doesn’t matter and one of the richest fucking corporations in the world not spending more money – when they’re making a shitload off the team — by having fans apologize for their small budget by talking about spending the money “wisely”. It’s brilliant, but it’s bullshit. Holy fuck, binary, go back to your ignorant school of 1′s and 0′s. If you can’t make a simple connection like that better for you to go back to kindergarten. We can’t trace everything for you. I’m certain that you think literalism is smart, but really it just means your brain hasn’t developed beyond that of a normal 13-year-old. With idiots like you, no wonder we a) elected the biggest shit-for-brains, neanderthal in Rob Ford b) have people apologizing for an owner happy to fuck the fans. The anti-Mike Illitch. And I’m the moron? Go fuck yourself and get a clue. Maybe read something that doesn’t have pictures in it. 

  74. So because Rogers makes (a lot of) money they are somehow beholden to spend great gobs of it on the Jays roster right-this-fucking instant? Ridiculous. Not to mention that they’ve already gone the piss-poor spending route and it got them nowhere. I also like the grab bag of fallacies you’ve reached for there to inject a little emo into your response. It’s actually kind of Deathwish – you’ve got a sock full of fallacies and bullshit and you’re going to beat the ‘guilty’ to death with it. It might hit a little harder if you took out the grade school name calling though. Just saying…

  75. bahahahahaha … you are hilarious. I am assuming your post was a big joke, right? Right?!?  Well, either way, that shiny tinfoil hat really looks good on you.

  76. this is the rub.

    it’s so painfully obvious. it’s ridiculous the contortions that stoeten and his acolytes go through to explain away the lack of will to compete for a championship.

    oh well. we’ll see 2014 where all this ludicrous hyperbole about ‘prospects’ nets out.

    my guess: 85 wins.

  77.  exactly! DJF is like the stephen harper of jays blogs.

  78. pollyanna much?

  79. Open forum. Posts with intellectual rigour trump reactionary posts that do not. 

  80. Keep building and get a real manager like John Madden from Tampa Bay. The new owner for Buffalo Babres spent alot of money on FA ‘s and the team goes in the toilet.

  81. I too am getting sick of the Rogers bashing, mostly because there is no reason for them to spend their money right now.  Many out there seem to believe that this team is one piece away from the playoffs.  They aren’t.  As constituted, the team is very much capable of making the playoffs if a lot of things go right, and is very capable of being a sub-.500 team again if things don’t go right.

    Notably, in the rotation, Morrow and Alvarez need to develop, Cecil’s improved fitness needs to translate into performance, McGowan needs to be healthy (and/or Drabek or another youngster needs to step up).  In the field, Lind needs to be physically prepared for 162 games at 1B, Johnson needs to play like he did in 2010, Rasmus needs to get a grip and harness his tools, Lawrie cannot regress, and one of the two LF candidates needs to break out.  The bullpen was the major sore spot last season, and it has been the main focus of the offseason, as it should have been.

    With all of these question marks concerning player development, where should Rogers be spending?  Which players should it be giving up on?  Which free agent this offseason would have transformed this team into a champion?  And at what cost? 

    Let’s face it, most contenders have been built in the model that AA is following.  The Yankees of the last decade and the Red Sox after their two WS wins are the exceptions to the rule.  Even the great Yankee teams of the late-90s and early 2000s were populated with home-grown talent and shrewdly acquired talent via trade and free agency.  Only with the Giambis and Arods did they begin over-spending like drunken sailors.  The last two WS winners — the Giants and the Cards — were populated with home-grown talent and shrewdly acquired FAs and mid-season trade candidates like Aubrey Huff and Lance Berkman (on reasonably salaries).  They weren’t put over the top with a crippling Fielder-like contract.

    The model AA has been following, like it or not, is proven to work.  Develop a solid, dependable, affordable core and then augment, when ready, with talented veterans.  In 1985 the Jays broke through on this very same model, and had almost a decade of success.  When assets built up at a position (Fernandez and Lee at SS, McGriff and Olerud at 1B), they were parlayed into assets at others (Alomar and Carter). 

    When the team had reached as far as it could as constituted, veterans were brought in to put it over the top on reasonable, short-term contracts.  The Jays of 92-93 didn’t splurge on 10-year mega contracts for 27 year olds with poor physiques.  They spent wisely on vets like Winfield, Molitor, and Morris who were at the tail end of their respective peaks, but could still perform at the highest level. 

    Jays fans allowed that process to happen.  We should allow this process to happen as well.  Complaining about how slow the process is won’t change AA’s mind, and if it does, he’s a worse GM than he is being made out to be.  The last guy in the role bent to the pressure of having to win now, changed his plan, overspent on Wells, Ryan, Thomas, etc., and allowed the team to waste the best years of a supremely talented Roy Halladay.  I won’t be complaining about how cheap Rogers is until the team reaches the point where AA knows what he has, has done what he can do, but fails to acquire those few extra pieces to make this team a champion.  That’s the vision he and Beeston laid out, and it is a sensible one.  Given that most Jays fans refuse to attend the games until there is a winner on the field, I suggest that they should shut their yaps and allow that process to continue.   

  82. You shouldn’t spend your time, money and effort if you’re unhappy with the Jays approach.  If you don’t like what’s going on, then don’t support it.  Move on, find a new apple for your eye.  That’s completely legit. If you (like me), believe they’re on a clear path forward to some place better than the recent past, then stick around and see if it works out.  Souffles take a while to bake, but damn are they tasty.

  83. Whats with the hate? You’re really making yourself sound like a conservative. I, like you, oppose the policies of exclusion that are wreaking havoc on our society that are used by the Ford’s and the Harper’s. I did not vote for Ford nor did I vote for Harper because I dont beleive in them as leaders. But for you to automatically assume I’m  a conservative simply because I disagree with you on a forum related to baseball makes you sound, well, rather conservative because that’s what they spend all their time doing is hating those who have an opposing oppinion instead of agreeing to disagree and politicizing even the most trivial things.

    My comment was related to the fact that, why do you have to bring federal politics into a discussion that is revolving around a baseball team and who they did and did not sign. We didnt spend big bucks on Feilder or Darvish and because that makes you angry, and ignorant of the actual goals the GM and President are trying to accomplish I might add, you connect that to part of the reason why Harper got elected? Give me a break.

    If you think Stoeten is making appologies for Rogers thats fine, thats your oppinion and in a way I see your point, but if anything,  he’s making appologies for how Rogers operates their baseball team not how thier corporate dollars impact our political landscape.

    Why are we even having this discussion in a baseball forum was my main point?

    Don’t talk to me about Rogers being the Anti-Mike Illitch either, ive been a die hard Wings fan since the day I was born and have lots of family in the Detroit area so I completely understand the impact he has on the community there and what that family has done for sports in Detroit but don’t make it seem like he’s some all knowing powerful sports management god that doesnt give a shit about making a profit, because he does, and the bottom line in his franchises matter to him just as much as they matter to Nadir Mohammed at Rogers.

    You accuse me of not comprehending above the level of a 13 year old or being of a “kindergarten” mindset but yet it’s you that resorts to cursing, name calling and the like over the internet.

    I work in Transit Expansion in the city of Toronto so may day is filled to the brim with political discussions, I follow sports and the Blue Jays in-particlar to escape from that crap but it’s people like you who have to politicize everything and somehow find a way to take the shortcommings of the management of your favorite baseball team and apply them to everything else you aren’t happy with with our society. Typical “sky is falling” conspiracy theory bullshit that assumes that everything that you don’t like is directly correlated to everything that is wrong with the world for no other reason than you dont agree with it. And you lack the capacity to see it, or at least understand it from any other perspective.

    If you ask me, it’s people like you who are the real problem, with a lack of capacity to understand and can’t engage in a reasonable discussion without resorting to childish name calling and the like and that’s how some of these far right wing conservatives get into power in the first place, because people get tired of the lack of meaningful debate and want change.

  84. I’m amongst the biggest of Rogers haters, but I have to give credit to Andrew.  His stance has morphed a bit through the years, but for the most part lately he has been consistent.  He doesn’t say that Rogers shouldn’t spend more on payroll, he just says that if this is the frame work that the team has to work in (which isn’t going to change any time soon), then he can understand in SOME cases why they chose not to spend money on certain players.  Not only is that a reasonable, rational approach, but it is also the only attitude we can enjoy baseball in this city right now.  This is a far cry from the Parkesbot that used to post here who tries to defend Rogers actions, rather than AA’s actions.

    My only criticism is saying that the team’s improved based on talent acquisition (which really is in perception rather than results on the field at this point) somehow defends the approach they are taking.  It’s not enough to just improve, many teams are improving, if you want to get ahead you have to gain on your competitors or else when the win loss numbers come in you won’t have improved at all.  The Jays roster may be more talented than it was last year, but it is yet to be determined whether or not the team is improved.  Judging by what was done in the AL by other wild card competitors, I think we know what the answer will be.

  85. Who hits free agency next year?

  86. You’re a Buffalo Babre

  87. i have a general question:  doesn’t revenue(TV, advertising, whatever..) generated by a particular team go into the league “pot” ??? Why are teams like Texas licking their chops and talking about major spending in the near future, if their new TV revenue goes to the league ??  Anybody ??

  88. first basemen are mostly long in the tooth…..

  89. All I’ve learned from these comments is that Stephen Harper is a hipster.

  90. Ok, so here’s a completely unrelated question. But maybe someone here can help explain it to me.
    Why are Blue Jay fans (in general) so unforgiving towards Adam Lind, but not towards Brandon Morrow?
    To me, they are very similar. They have both shown small inconsistent flashes of brilliance but have both performed very poorly overall for the past 2 years. Yet the general consensus for Morrow is “thank god we locked him up for cheap, its just a matter of time before he puts it all together”, whereas for Lind its more like “we have the worst 1B in the majors, he needs to be replaced now”. I don’t really get it.
    Is it because Morrow has a high strikeout rate? Is it because his FIP has shown he SHOULD be better?
    Why is it that you look at a few awesome games by Morrow and get a hard-on for how awesome he could be, yet you look at Adam Lind’s 1st half of 2011 and not get that same hard on?

  91. Shut up; go reunite with Chris Cornell.

  92. Ya, not a lot of good FA position players. But the potential SP and RP free agents is intriguing.
    I’d love to see AA package a few of our young arms for a top of the rotation guy around the trade deadline and then go out and sign another one via free agency. We could go into 2013 with a killer rotation, super-bullpen and high scoring offence. 

  93. Stoeten, great piece as always.  A couple of things that I continue to question though.  You are right about gate revenue no longer being the key source of revenue, however Rogers’ mouthpiece and AA’s gatekeeper continues to believe that it is and claims that as gate revenues rise, so will payroll.  I believe this is out of simple ignorance of the true value of the Blue Jays as content to Rogers and that if Beeston could wrap his mind around this value, he would argue for more payroll. 

    Secondly, we simply don’t know if AA would have made significant upgrades if his parameter was say $120mm instead of $85mm.  We don’t know what bad contracts are out there that other teams are willing to give up controllable talent to move.  My bet is that they are out there though and AA would be able to improve the team both now and in the future with that extra payroll flexibility.

  94. Please don’t reference US rights deals when talking about a Canadian context.
    The markets are totally different.
    The Blue Jays #1 revenue source today is ticket sales – not broadcast revenue. The problem for TBJ in Canada is that there is no one to ‘bid up’ rights. TV and radio is basically a duopoly, advertising and sponsorship rights fees are dwarfed by the US numbers. I suggest that before you go down this road again you get yourself a subscription to Sports Business Daily. When you talk about stadium concession revenues you have to be kidding. Stateside the #1 driver of revenues in stadium is beer. As you may be aware, the Jays are in a market which doesn’t allow for free market competition – which means that the concessionaire actually buys their beer from the LCBO above retail. The stadium is ‘debt free’ – have you any idea what they’ve had to sink into capital improvements – and what the annual operating cost of a half empty building is?
    Rogers can’t be making a dime on this – not a chance. But that’s NOT the point.
    Ultimately if enough people decide not to support the team by buying tickets or merchandise or by not watching TV or listening to radio broadcasts, revenues will continue to decline. That’s what happened in Montreal. Increasingly even really rich assholes are getting out of sports because the payback vs. real businesses just isn’t there.

  95. I can’t relate to Fullmer Fan because he lives in a Fool’s Paradox.
    Rogers are a corporate entity – not some rich, kindly, community focused individual (like Webster was) – or an driven billionaire ( like George was).
    They are in business to deliver a return on shareholder value, full stop. Ted Rogers bought this team.
    As much as I think Rogers are a bunch of money grubbing monopolists (nasty ones at that) – they beat the fuck out of the Belgian assholes who just kept trying to bleed the bone out of what was once a great franchise. Hate Rogers? Think their assholes? So stop buying their shit, don’t use their phones, cut-off the cable, etc. etc. Did Fullmer Fan notice whose been winning the World Series recently? Not the fat cat teams buddy! St Louis! The Giants!

  96. Who’s Chris Cornell?

  97. It might be a good time for readers here to look the Yankees’ development from 1986 to 1995.

  98. Hey, dumb shit, the Cards and Giants winning the WS doesn’t mean that the best way to guarantee getting into the playoffs is to sign some free agents. The playoffs are a fucking crap shoot. What matters is getting there. 

    You’re really fucking stupid and I hope you die.

  99. I think that you made a tactical error by even acknowledging the existence of The Five Tools.

    When you are one of the lead dogs (which this blog is in the world of the Blue Jays blogosphere)  you don’t aknowledge the criticisms of those nipping at your heals trying to make a name for themselves. By linking to his (her?) blog and spending all of that effort to prove why his views are bullshit you have inadvertently legitimized his blog and made it all worthwhile for him.  It would have been much more advisable to have completely ignored him. Had you done so, I’d bet that 99% of the people who read his blog would never have done so.

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