Aaaaand… here comes the underlying reason for all of yesterday’s doom and gloom: it’s the rematch between Yu Darvish and Kyle Drabek– a match that the Jays’ young right-hander wasn’t able to win, even when at perhaps the best we’ve yet to see him, back at the end of April. And one that features the Jays rolling the dice with a truly shittacular bullpen.

The overlying reason for yesterday’s city-wide gut rot and parade of almost-unrelentingly clueless Wilner callers? The nature of fandom, I guess. I mean, it was a tit-punch of a way to lose a game you’d spent five hours watching and had felt finally in the 13th that your team had actually done what seemed on Friday to be the impossible, so… yeah, people are going to be a little bitter.

It was also, apparently, a second-guesser’s wet dream– even if Brandon Morrow wasn’t at all a realistic option to pitch, Ryota Igarashi should have (as Wilner put it) been reliable enough to get through 13th without compiling an ERA of 18.00 (and if they weren’t supposed to think he wasn’t, why the fuck did he get called up here in the first place?), and Josh Hamilton came into the game having not homered in 90% of his plate appearances, and having gone 11 games without one (putting up a .732 OPS over that span) before running into Carlos Villanueva on Friday.

Ahh, but… whatever. People think the Jays have a legitimate shot and need to start trading for the final puzzle pieces when they play well against the Yankees, and they’re ready to blow up the whole squad and start over when they lose to the Rangers and Rays. The truth of what these Jays are lies somewhere in the middle– which I’m pretty sure anyone with half a brain, including the vast majority around here, has known all along.

The Jays can still absolutely surprise this season, despite what the moaning fuck brigade will tell you, and hearing their pissing slough about how we can’t beat good teams or don’t have the killer instinct should make your eyes roll back in your head so hard you nearly topple backwards. It makes for an easy daily narrative and a nice escape from what must be an infuriating fact for those who can’t stand not to know on gut instinct the game’s mysteries: that a baseball season reveals itself like an onion.

For the sake of our sanity, however, let’s please keep reminding ourselves there remain a lot of good layers to be uncovered. Shit, Rasmus seems like he’s coming around, Bautista is practically full-on himself, Lawrie and Escobar can’t get much worse, Vlad’s coming (which is probably not as big a deal as every fucking insufferable media piece on him is begging casual fans to think it is), and Thames will probably only be here for as long as Snider’s hurt.

The season is not spiralling out of control, and this shitty feeling is nothing that a few wins won’t fix.

No one’s asking anyone to jump for joy at a loss, or to not feel a sinking feeling that club hasn’t raced farther past the Yankees and Red Sox as they struggled, by their standards, early on. But, did anyone really think there was a chance they’d just roll over? Do as many supposed baseball fans as I feel do actually need to be told again that the best teams lose upwards of 70 times, to both good teams and to bad? I mean, the Orioles are still in first place, and we’re a little over a year removed from the non-playoff Indians being 30-15 with a seven game lead, for fuck sakes.

So, basically, what I’m saying is… relax. Even if they get Darvish’d today: Relax. Enjoy the ride, it’s a long way from over.

TV: Sportsnet

And now the lineups, by way of the live box score at And for those of you who’ll be out and about, be sure to follow all the action on your phone with Score Mobile

Toronto Blue Jays

Y. Escobar SS
C. Rasmus CF
J. Bautista RF
E. Encarnacion DH
E. Thames LF
J. Arencibia C
B. Lawrie 3B
D. Cooper 1B
O. Vizquel 2B

K. Drabek RHP

Texas Rangers

I. Kinsler DH
E. Andrus SS
J. Hamilton CF
A. Beltre 3B
M. Young 2B
D. Murphy LF
N. Cruz RF
M. Napoli C
M. Moreland 1B

Y. Darvish RHP


Image via Rick Yeatts/Getty.

Comments (267)

  1. This team is doomed


  2. I feel the I’m in the twilight zone.
    I actually agree with Stoeten’s post.
    Gotta go to the doctor to get this checked out.

    BTW Stoeten.

    Nice job on 590 last night.
    You’re getting better at this stuff,much easier to listen to.

    • Thanks, I think.

      There was a crazy echo on my phone that was really distracting, so I was kinda figuring it probably sucked.

      • Dead serious Stoeten.
        I know you’re not accustomed to it.
        Gotta give credit where credits due.

        You were more direct,didn’t ramble as much and didn’t over explain your points.
        Informative and well done.

  3. That post is why I read this blog every day. Bang on, man.

  4. As long as Chavez y Chavez is on the squad the jays will win

  5. This team is what it’s supposed to be in this division. Yes as Stoeten said there’s upside but I wonder if the whole ump thing isn’t going to dog them adversely for the rest of the season and what that’s going to do to the hitters and pitchers mentally. Hard enough to play the game at an elite level but if you think you’re getting squeezed unfairly by the ump I’m sure that’s going to play havoc with a players approach.

    As for the umpires themselves it’s a bit ridiculous that they are allowed to subvert the game for personal reasons and get away with it.

  6. Release the lions!

  7. is there a chance that chavez goes down after todays game and a different call up occurs?

    • No

    • I think so. These guys aren’t exactly in the club’s big league plans. They were behind Igarashi on the depth chart, for fuck sakes!

      But they may keep them longer, depending on how the bullpen looks going into tomorrow.

  8. So if this series is the reverse of that Mets series, then we’re supposed to win this game in a nail-biter.


  9. and I, get sick when I’m around, I, can’t stand to be around, I, hate everything about Yu!

  10. Ahhh, this team could suck less.

    But at least Hill and Lind are gone.

    So there’s that.

  11. 6 straight balls and colby’s swinging?

  12. What the fuck, Colby? Make him through a strike before you swing.

  13. A missed opportunity.

  14. No infield fly rule there?

  15. I didn’t watch the game but caught the replays.. the thing that rubbed me the wrong way was Alvarez getting thrown for pitching inside…fucking umpires are rediculous this year

    • It was a very weird decision by the ump for sure. However, the idea that umps are worse this year is the same sort of bullshit myth as whining, “Oh, the kids today!”

  16. Cannot figure out the strike zone today. Pitches on the corners seem to have a 50-50 chance of being either.

  17. Jeebus Drabek’s control is terrible. Iy yi yi

  18. i’m out! There’s no point in watching the rest

    • Dude, you say the same thing every game. Why do you even watch in the first place?

      • Because it bothers individuals such as yourself

        • I never comment but always read these threads just for laughs and I always notice this guy called “it’s all over” saying he’s “done” and then “never gonna watch again” but he’s always here the next day saying the same thing. Grow up.

  19. This is just brutal.

  20. Could see 3-4 innings of Chavez today.

  21. I just puked in my mouth a bit.

  22. Brutal squared.

  23. “Thames missed the cut off man”

  24. This is pretty embarrassing.

  25. Ladies and gentleman, your starting left fielder: Eric Thames!

  26. Thames is just brutal.

  27. That’s it! A warm corpse is a better option than Thames in left.

    He’s just not good enough.

    • I mean it wasn’t even the missed catch, that was a relatively difficult play. It was the confusing shitshow after with misplaying the ball and missing the cutoff man.

  28. Well this game is over.

  29. That was pretty fucking disgusting to watch Texas reigns supreme

  30. Should have got Gino Gonzalez.

  31. Lol, now it’s just funny.

  32. Alright Texas, take it easy, please?


  34. “Thames missed the cut-off man, drabek continues to miss the strike zone, the rangers are jumping all over the blue jays early” this game has gone EXACTLY as expected

  35. join me!

  36. Might as well have Chavez pitch the rest of the game and save everyone in the pen. Even if it takes 150 pitches.

  37. More more more more more!

    • What happened to Drabek staying between the lines? They might as well leave him in there till he hits 100 pitches. No point wasting the bullpen on a blowout loss.

      • So much for that great starting pitching we have.

      • Yup no point in wasting the pen, just focus on O`s after this.

        • I got some bad news for you — we’re going to get swept by the O’s.

          • I don’t think we will get swept by the O’s at home . We shold win at least 1 game.

            Why does Drabek keep falling towards first base when he pitches. He was supposed to stay in his lanes. Very frustrating.

  38. I love the Jays. Go jays!! They’re my favorite squadron.

    • This team is the fucking joke of the league.

      • I’m pretty sure all this is the umpires fault.

      • I think you’re thinking of one of the dozen+ teams that are clearly worse than the Jays

        • Jays aren’t even as good as the Cubs. At least the Cubs have one pitcher than can handle the AL bEast.

      • ummm right.
        above .500?
        playing in the toughest division in baseball?
        joke of the league?
        fucking troll.
        get offline and cry until hockey season you pathetic douche.
        fucking toronto sports fans don’t have a goddamn clue how to “support” a team
        fucking instant gratification needing entitled douchebag trolls

  39. I’ll laugh in two months when the jays are in a playoff spot and all the trolls are gone

  40. Maybe we should all just join parkes and cheer for the rangers today… it looks like the bandwagon to be on

  41. Thames K incoming!

  42. I wonder if the Jays want to give D’Arnaud a full year at AAA. I fully believe he would already be a better option than JPA. I guess it depends on the trade market for JPA. It’s a shame that the DBacks signed Montero. That’s one less team that could be interested.

    JPA and Thames are black holes when it comes to smart hitting. It’s painful to watch them.

  43. does drabek get sent down to AA or gets skipped a start for chavez/charlie v?

  44. Yes Thames SUCKS, but why did I just read a bunch of posts about his missing the cut off man after Drabek walked 3 batters in a row? Drabek is fucking garbage and should be sent back down until he learns how to throw a strike again. He should also be made to go at least 5 today, no matter if he gives up 20 runs. I think the reason I’m so pissed off is because of all the swag talk by these fucks. It is literally hilarious that they could talk so much shit and just go out and get owned. Jays will be in 5th place after today and it’s only going to get worse.

    I blame the coaching. Not Farrell, but Dwayne Murphy and the pitching coaches. CLEARLY there is something wrong there when we lead the league in walks an our offence(se?) is horrid. Anyways…fuck off.

    • Unfortunately, that’s a function of the talent that’s on this club and that’s got very little to do with the coaching staff. Drabek has always had control issues end of story. It’s not Farrell’s fault he’s stuck with him nor is it Farrell’s fault he’s stuck with Thames right now. All the Jays pitching depth has evaporated. From Cecil shitting the bed to McGowan being injured and to the 2 fucking first round picks shitting the bed in AA – McGuire and Jenkins. Sure Farrell has made some questionable decisions of late but at the end of the day players gotta play and execute or it doesn’t matter how good the coaches are.

      I’m amazed that people forget about last August and September so quickly. This is essentially the same team that was below .500 for those two months. You’ve got some improvement in the starting pitching but there’s regression in other areas like Lawrie and Thames bats. Rasmus has improved in my opinion but he’s had horrible luck for the most part. The pen has been mediocre to poor with the exception of Oliver and Perez.

      • The coach’s fucking job is to develop this talent. How come Dwayne Murphy has the fucking reverse midas touch? Get rid of his ass.

        • The coach makes tweeks here and there that’s it for the most part. By the time a player gets to the majors he is what he is. Ultimately it’s the players jobs to incorporate said tweeks or coaching or whatever and make the adjustments.

          You mean guys like Bautista, EE, Scutaro, Buck and others haven’t improved under him or had their best seasons under Murphy? Or are you one to believe that those AAA numbers are what guys should hit at the major league level?

      • I said I don’t blame Farrell man! But I do blame the other coaches. It’d be different if it was one guy failing, but the whole team is shitting the bed in all the same ways! I will be so happy the day Murphy is canned, he is riding Bautista’s ass to the retirement home!

    • Fucking Murphy…piss me off…guy should’ve been gone with Cito.

  45. Drabek is the exact same guy he was last year. Just getting luckier on balls in play.

  46. Anything has to be better than Thames at this point, that ball off the wall should have been caught, that’s 2 runs right there he could have saved for sure and possibly 4.

  47. Good job Drabek. Nice pitch.

  48. Fuck if I EVER hear that ASSHOLE theme from “The Natural” again ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

  49. One of the primary reasons I read this blog, is that while you might be drunk, or perhaps because you are drunk, you’re a source of level headed punditry on the Jays (well, that and the amusement I get reading you swear at morons), and this piece was no different.

    So, while intellectually I know that you’re right on, there’s something that makes me want to say, “f*** no, this team sucks balls.” Maybe it’s the sting of last night, maybe it’s that the team is once again batting Thames 5th, or maybe it’s that while reading your piece I was watching an inning that went: single, WALK, pop out, WALK, WALK, double, Eric Thames created double, pop out, HR, double, ground out.

    Ughhh… it’s ok though, because Vlad will be here soon to save the day…

    • Seriously Jason, lose the asterisks. You’ll immediately feel much better.

      • I don’t know, I once saw an un-bleeped episode of Arrested Development and thought, ‘huh, it’s actually kind of funnier with the bleeps.” It doesn’t really translate to print, but I bleep all the same.

        • I’ll admit that I never considered that angle. I suspect you’d have to bleep out many more words than one to have any hope of succeeding though. Bleep away, my man.

    • This team does suck balls. Their hitters cannot take a fucking walk, and their pitchers give up way too many of them. Address this problem first.

    • Vladdy may be here by June 5th as per the Toronto Sun.

  50. Wonder how Mike Wilner will rationalize today’s game? It’ll be interesting to hear him attempt to even defend the Jays after today’s showing.

  51. Unfortunately, this series just turned into the same thing Boston did to us last summer – a complete and total ass raping.

    If Boston hangs on welcome to last place Monday morning with the division leaders up next and your very young rookie pitcher due to start lol

  52. Some of the Rangers hitters should be sending kickback cheques to the Jays pitchers for making their stats look so good come contract time.

  53. lol wilners getting pissed on twitter

    • I hope he gets blasted on jays talk. Jays will soon be a 500 team on target for 81 games. He kept bragging that we are on pace for 90 plus wins last week.

  54. I’m definitely am not gonna get to upset about this series. But I think it’s a good time for us Jays fans to take a step back and realize we are a few bats and a couple pitchers away from being a legitimate playoff team.

    Lets not sell the farm Floyd or Gino Gonzalez because, quite frankly, we’re not that close.

  55. Mini rally about to be snuffed out by Thames

  56. rally caps on. fuck, lets go jays…. remembre when we were fans and not haters round here?

    • Last weekend we lost winnable games to the Twins. At least we are losing to top level talent.

      • actually last weekend they played the mets and only lost one game. but thanks for comin out.
        and all games are winnable before the first pitch. by definition a game is a contest between two or more opponents (even if one of them is simulated or, as in golf, your own statistical history) in which one or the other can win. as baseball games cannot end in a tie, they must therefore be won, and therefore are possible for either competing party to win, even if a disparity in talent level makes it more likely for one side to do so. even at this point in this game this game is still “winnable” for the Blue Jays… even if that outcome is unlikely.

  57. Gose up to .292 with 2 more hits and 2 more SB’s.

    d’Arnaud hit his 11th.

    • d’Arnaud hit another homerun today? Holy fuck. That’s like 8 in the last 11 games or something crazy.

      • Vladdy hit one as well in A ball.

        Gose hitting .351 for May so far with 11 extra base (6 2b, 2 3b, 3hr) hits out of his 33. 11 BB to 17 K’s.

    • vegas vegas vegas! but I would love to believe that d’arnaud is almost ready to force JPA to first or DH, not because I hate his D, but because we could use the bat. question though, bcause I’m too lazy to look it up right thus moment: how many strikeouts does gose have, and what’s his babip… and hiome and away splits would be nice too.

      • I’d rather have Lind at 1B or DH than JPA and I hate Lind. JPA is not an MLB-caliber player at any position other than C.

      • Well gosh Paul, I’ll have my people get right on that for you, I mean seeing as you’re too lazy to do it yourself. Just bear with me…

        • according the B-R
          He now has 59 hits as of today in 203 at bats, and at least 51 strikeouts, to only 23 walks.
          not sure what his splits are, minor league splits seem to be harder for an amateur like myself to track down just the k to walk ratio, or the fact that he’s striking out in a quarter of his at bats in a league not known for its pitching, especially in terms of breaking pitches, speaks to an approach that may not quite be ready for the bigs.
          That being said, I am not a scout, I’m a fan, and I’d fucking love to see our very own homegrown devon white get up here as soon as possible… just so long as he’s not given the Travis Snider Yo-Yo treatment.

          • his BABIP (before today’s games) was sitting at .369, which isn;t unreasonable given his speed.

          • Seriously, why would you bring him up early (as in the organization’s estimate) and then insist on not sending him back down if it doesn’t appear to work out (no yo-yo.) (Especially when our present CFer is flat out great defensively, and just hit another homer as I type. Cletus is heating up very nicely.

  58. can someone poke my eyes please? i just read simmons in the sun.gagging

  59. The composure problem that has dogged this team didn’t just surface this year. It was present all of last season.

    This is where a manager really comes into play, beyond all the usual mumble jumble about leadership. /Manage/ a cluster of players who aren’t acting like grown-ups.

  60. Thames and arencibia are such fucking garbage hitters. Thames threw his fucking hands up like “what can i do?” Howabout TAKE A FUCKING PITCH you undisciplined piece of shit. Darvish is clearly wild so thames decided to help him out by chasing the first pitch. Same goes for arencibia.

  61. ive got a nice virus or something on my comp. someone posted a livestream on friday on here and i bit. computer is fucked right up now

    • you only have yourself to blame.

    • It behooves me to recommend downloading and scanning with Malwarebytes (, and Microsoft Security Essentials ( If you scan with both of those and you’re still fucked, all’s not lost, but it’ll take longer to to fix than is going to happen in the DJF comments section. Oh, and if you clean it up, try Secunia PSI ( to keep your system up to date. /IThelp

  62. Extremely thin silver lining to this shit-show: Chavez might not suck.

  63. I guess I’m an extreme optimist because I’m looking forward to the Baltimore series. When we sweep them, remember I called it.

  64. I’m half watching the game. What happened to Yunel?

  65. Rejoice Jays fans! Thanks to another Boston blown save in the 9th we’ve been spared last place for another day or so lol

  66. Why is Lawrie playing SS?

  67. Omar Vizquel drinks Sprite? Omar Vizquel drinks sprite!

  68. I am sanguine about the future of the team. But I want this manager gone.

    It’s very apparent after eight months of watching him work that he just doesn’t get it.

    “Hey, we tried and it didn’t work, John. You are free to go and we thank you for your effort.”

    Let him go back to Boston. It would be great to see what Shrieker Nation thinks of his managerial tactics.

  69. Farrell’s use of the bullpen left us with stems and seeds today and we’ll see how our rotation looks in August with him burning those bearings.

    Fire him now.

  70. Tabler: “It’s quite apparent this Texas team is built on starting pitching”

    That could not be further from the truth, you fucking dolt. Texas is built on their awesome offence 1-9. The starting pitching is a bonus, but is not the foundation (ala, Tampa Bay).

    Fuck, this guy is so clueless when it comes to this game. He blows my mind every game.

  71. Fat rob ford

  72. Fire Farrell hire fasano

  73. The multitude of idiots that call into Jays Talk and the blathering comments regarding who should have been brought into the game in the 13th inning yesterday undermines legitimate criticisms of the Jays by actual clued in fans. It makes it too easy for people like Wilner and Stoeten to pain us all with a broad brush of being fucking morons.

    I am willing to take a stand for the non moronic critics of this team.

    For example, yesterday the guy who SHOULD have been brought into the 13 th inning was either a starting pitcher on his throw day OR a starting pitcher scheduled for the next game or for Monday’s game.

    It is not conventional thinking but it is a better mode of operation than using ineffective, tired pitchers.

    it would have taken some foresight by the manager in terms of getting a guy mentally prepared at some point (oh, I dont know…maybe the tenth inning) to go in..and then getting him warmed up.

    There is a chance it would not have worked, of course. It was only a two run lead. But the chances were far greater of it working than running out pitchers with nothing but fumes.

    In fact, I question Farrell even going to Frasor in that game. If he was unavailable, then winning one game is not worth jeoparding the pitchers health.

    But what we have seen from this regime (AA/Farrell) is constant plan changing and player rushing. Putting players in positions that are not necessarily in their best interests and then justifying it with nonsensical verbiage

    Hutchison and Alvarez should not be up here. There is no way Alvarez should have to actually LEARN pitches at his age at the big league level.

    Hutchison’s ETA for the bigs SHOULD be two years from now..not now.

    So go ahead and SHIT on the jays fans for being reactionary and angry.

    But we are not the ones fast tracking people to the bigs to the detriment of their own development. That would be the worlds greatest GM.

    • completely agree with what you said. Both on starting pitcher for the 13th inning and rushing our prospects. I remember last year Angels did that against Blue Jays in the 14th inning when they brought in Dan Haren.
      One thing that pisses me off is the fact that they were couple of inning eater free agent available but instead they tried to fill in the roster with prospects. At some point fans will realize that thing aren’t on the riht track as much as they thought.

    • With that being said these callers who call in are ridiculous. They don’t even know the players name and all they claim is that they were watching the Blue Jays since 1979.

      • These “Callers Who Call In” are the new Knights Who Say “Ni.” Appease them with a shrubbery.

    • Well said.

      This team is worse than any of us feared, and nowhere near being ready for primetime.

      It’s time to admit that and throw in the towel on the next 2-3 years. The best/only hope for the Jays is to build around the youngest guys in MLB (Lawrie, Alvarez etc.) who are about the same age as most of the top-tier prospects coming up (Gose, D’Arnaud, etc.). If a good number of those guys turn out and peak all around the same time we could be pretty good, but that won’t happen for at least 3-4 years.

      Guys like Bautista, E5, Johnson, and probably even Escobar are going to be way too old/expensive by the time we’re ready. Trade them now for guys at the A+/AA level who will sync up well age-wise with our core.

      I would even endorse trading some of the “older” young guys like Rasmus and Romero except for the fact that they’ll get garbage in return. But the plan should be to wait until they get reasonably hot and then deal them.

      This is the only way to win without spending money, which we know Rogers won’t do (except maybe on a rental player, and even if this plan goes perfectly we will probably still need one or two of those). It’s too bad that it doesn’t work very well with AA’s “building” narrative and the club’s desire to show progress to the fans, but the alternative is just more of the same old JPR good but not good enough seasons. Sadly I fear that’s what we’re going to get because Beeston won’t want to trade a marquee player and see attendance goes down, and AA is incapable of admitting his mistakes.

      • “It’s time to admit that and throw in the towel on the next 2-3 years. ”

        You MUST see how idiotic a thing that is to say based on a 4 game losing streak in May that puts a team at .500. and about 2 games out of the playoffs.

        Some part of you must see that, right?

        • Or 5 games now I guess. Ugh.

        • It isn’t based on a 5-gtame losing streak; it’s based on looking at the current composition of the team vs. what will be necessary to win in the toughest division in baseball.

          This is a .500 team AT BEST. That doesn’t get you anywhere unless you play in the AL or NL Central divisions. Which we don’t.

          The way I see it the Jays have one of three choices:

          1. Stand pat and win between 70-85 games each year over the next 3 years or so. In the meantime, E5 leaves, Johnson leaves, Bautista leaves.

          2. “Go for it” and trade all our prospects for Hamels or Greinke and/or a bat. That MIGHT be enough to take our current 81-win team (at best) to an 85-86 win team. We still miss the playoffs, Johnson and E5 still leave, and we now have nobody coming up to fill the holes.

          3. Sell our high-priced talent for controllable young guys who will be maturing at the same time as the core we have. We probably will still not be able to make the playoffs, because realistically speaking Anthony Gose in his 2nd or 3rd year is still not going to be as good as whoever the Yankees and Sox pay $25M per season to replace their guys who retire or start shitting the bed. But it’s our best shot to do what Tampa did.

          #2 is just ridiculous and won’t happen, both because Rogers won’t spend the money now and because AA knows this team is not good enough.

          I would rather go for #3 and delude myself into thinking we could pull off a Tampa miracle than go for #1 and delude myself into thinking this team is better than it is.

          It seems like most of you guys have chosen #1, and that’s fine. But 2 games out of the playoffs means nothing. It’s a .500 team, at best, and that isn’t good enough.

          • There is, of course a 4th option. Fill in the gaps with free agents, which will let your young prospects learn at the proper level.

            Of course, that means spending money, and as long as the TV and radio listener-ship is as high as it is, Rogers sees no need to spend any more. Winning won’t make them any more money.

        • The sentiments of a lost year can be based on the body of work so far. James this road trip, by itself shows just how poorly the Jays stak up against their peer rivals – we call this a microcausim. We all know that 1-5 recent record isn’t the whole season. We have to fix Left Field, starting pitching, get a big bat, get a first baseman, and fill in some holes at SS and Second right now. These are big problems Jimmy

      • Fuck that, I for one would be irate if they folded instead of ponying up and getting some depth for pitching via the free agent market. Tell me again how $4 million for Frasor and Coco each is better spent than the same money for a Bedard or Jackson for a year each while guys like Hutchison, Alvarez and Drabek continue to develop especially when you had Carreno and Beck ready to start the year in the pen.

        People can say all you want about not winning by building through free agency and for the most part I agree, However, having said that, it does give you time for prospects to develop at the proper pace and might give a decent team with a good core group a better shot at winning.

        This isn’t a horrible team by any stretch of the imagination despite what we saw here today, it’s just not as good as the hypesters led you to believe during spring training. Again it’s essentially the same team from last August and September with some improvements in areas and regressions in others. Maybe it’s not going to be until 2013 where guys like Lawrie, Snider or any of the really young players put it together. All I know is that without significant upgrades there will be no playoffs this year or even next but it’s certainly better to try and get them than blow up the group we have and start all over again.

        • Imagine the Jays had been able to acquire Beltran and Uehara? As they supposedly pushed hard for?

          Would have been worth a few wins at this point, I’d say!

        • All along I’ve felt that this team will probably win 85 to 88 games.

          All I’m really hoping for this year is the continued improvement and development of the young core/prospects, and meaningful September baseball with an actual playoff race. I’d guess the 2nd WC could be had with around 88 to 90ish wins, so I think that’s pretty feasible. Anything beyond that is gravy.

    • + 1

    • completely agree here. well said.

  74. At least Rasmus is hitting well

  75. Wilner is such a fucking hypocrite. Snider was brought up too early and it resulted in stunted maturity.

    BUT, its better to have 21 and 22 year old pitchers who are clearly not ready for the big leagues pitching in the big leagues because they can learn on the job and have high upside?

    wtf is this shit?

    • Hutchinson is the only starter I would argue may not be ready … and it’s not like he’s been Josh Towers out there.

      • Really? have you looked at Hendrson’s advanced metrics? He is the least able pitcher in major league baseball to miss bats.

        His secondary pitches are nothing more than show me in nature.

        You dont take a 21 or 22 year old and throw him into the bigs and have the mistakes he makes developing these pitches end up in homers.

        its not good for their development or else the majors would be FULL of 21 and 22 year old cheap ass pitchers.

        • Yes, I have seen that he doesn’t strike anybody out. I get that will probably catch up to him.

          But his first twenty starts in the majors have been a pretty fantastic first twenty starts, innings pitched/earned run wise.

          So even if he regresses a bit I’m not sure it will be so bad that shouldn’t be pitching in the majors.

          I mean, definitely possible. But maybe we should wait for the league to start capitalizing on his poor peripherals before declaring him not ready.

    • Wilner was bragging tonight that with everything going wrong were lucky to not be below 500 & only 2.5 games out of a playoff spot!

      He told one caller that the Jays should trade Drabek for Wells if they want to increase payroll.

      He argued with another caller about using Frasor in a blowout on Friday when he could be needed for Saturday.

    • it’s pretty obvious that wilner isn’t worth listening to. never was really.

  76. So now “getting your but kicked” is NOT THE SAME as “being overwhelmed”

    this man will stop at nothing than to say that perhaps the jays plan of running out not ready for prime time starting pitchers get their ass handed to them.

  77. Fuck guys.

    Well this has sucked.

    Lets turn the page. Come home, try to have a good six games against Baltimore and the Sox. It’s a long season. Lets not go all Sons of Sam Horn in here.

    • Im actually advocating for them to NOT “go for it”

      Im advocating for a measured approach in which they do not rush prospects to the bigs and they stick to their long term plan rather than doing shit like rushing alvarez and rushing hutchison.

      • Yeah, it’s a tough call. I agree it’s definitely questionable.

        I guess the question is, is any harm being done to either guy? So far it doesn’t seem like it to me…

        • I dont see how you can tell. Alvarez has actually regressed vs last year if you check out his metrics. I know some of this has to do with the league being more familiar with him, but I think the drop in his k’s / 9 ip is a worrisome thing. he needs time and space to work on these secondary a place where it doesn’t mean shit if those pitches get tatood while they develop

          • I agree that Alvarez needs to work on improving his strikeout totals.

            But, he’s not getting tatooed. Not even close.


            I’m not a coach, but I don’t see why he couldn’t work on that while in the majors. At least until he starts looking overmatched.

          • Unfortunately a bunch of factors have left the Jays kind of fucked for pitching depth this season and they’re screwed because they NEED Alvarez , Hutchison and Drabek to start. The depth has evaporated due to injuries and shitiness. How good would a Bedard or Jackson look for this rotation right now? Hutchison could have been in the minors this entire time and Drabek could go back down for a stint if needed.

          • Secondary pitches ..check!!

      • well, on the plus side Alvarez and Hutch are arguably two of the lower ceiling, higher polish type prospects in the system, so it’s not like we’re watching gold turn into lead here.

        And hell, a good home stand with a little help from around the league could see us a game up in the division by next sunday… ok that’s a great week and a lot of help. But still, it’s all in the Jay’s hands, and we don’t face the rangers again til August. So make hay while the sun is shining.

        • Yeah the only problem with all the higher ceiling guys is that they are 2 years away at least. You could possibly get Stilson here by the end of next year but even by the beginning of 2014 Syndergaard and Sanchez will only be just turning 21.

          With Jenkins and McGuire shitting the bed the internal depth/bridge to those guys collapsed.

        • @night manimal – I totally agree particularly on Edwin Jackson.

          That was a pretty fucking reasonable deal he signed.

      • Play the kids makes more sense han having Dana Eveland or JO Jo Reyes pitching here.

        • Couldn’t agree more though I’d prefer them to be perfecting those off speed pitches in a different environment. Just goes to show how valuable a veteran starter would have been to the clubs progress.

      • Much prefer seeing Hutch and Alvarez earning their spurrs at the MLB level than to see duds like Jo-Jo. Drabek’s outing vs. Texas was a shit show but he maintained his composure.

        Its a long season. And remember that AA has a secret weapon. He’s retained that Robert from Scarborough guy as a special advisor. PJ Wilson! Fucking book it!

  78. As for Thames I’m not sure how many more runs defensively he has to cost the Jays before he’s never allowed in the outfield again. A good defender had a pretty good shot at catching that ball off the wall in the 2nd just as Gentry robbed us.

    • the ball landed to his SIDE..not above him. not only that, but then he misses the cut off man.

      ALSO, what people dont remember, kinsler hit what should have been a single but moron , for some weird ass reason, threw to third base and allowed kinsler second base. not a big deal as it turned out, but in a more important situation, he will do the same stupid shit.

  79. I have a feeling the Jays will have a really good homestand. They’re about due now to go on a run and get ~5 games over .500 again before falling back.

    Other plusses:

    No more Rangers till August. No more Rays till August. They don’t even play the Yankees till after the ASB.

  80. I was more hopeful for this team 3 years ago than i am now. I dont see the “upside” . remember the .500 team with upside argument? not seeing the upside……
    2012, another lost year.

    • There’s still plenty of upside imo. You’ve got some nice core pieces and talent. With some luck or good breaks this team could easily go on a nice run.

      • That is the irony of it all. The jays have never had issues with core talent players. Delgaodo, Halladay, Wells (in his prime years) were great playes. The jays problems in the last couple eras have been filling out the roster with players who did not absolutely suck ass. We had the stewart, mencherson debacle a few years ago when a fucking average MLB LF might have allowed us to get into the playoffs.

        now we have the core of jose, lawrie, rasmus, JPa..but will be held back by the shit we have a dh, lf…

        the pieces keep moving and shifting but we never seem to have enough.

        • The DH isn’t crap. Edwin is having a good year. We need 1 more bat. Vladdy can help.

        • That’s more on Rogers than anything else, A, for not spending on development and B, for not spending on veterans to fill the gaps where needed.

          We’ve corrected problem A but it takes time to show results. Problem B could have been much better.

          As for the core, I see it as Yunel, Lawrie, Bautista, Rasmus, EE and KJ (if they’re smart enough to resign them) on offense. As for pitching you’ve got Romero, Morrow, Santos, Janssen, and Perez. You could easily add Alvarez, Hutch and Drabek to that bunch with some more seasoning. All three have shown they can pitch very very well at the major league level already so it’s just going to be a work in progress.

        • I think the jays have put faith in the wrong players as core pieces. They overrated their own players.Wells in his prime was not that great of a hitter. He was good, not great. Defensive wise, yes he was great. Delgado also has his flaws as a hitter. However, this is a team that considered josh phelps, orlando hudson, and eric hinske as core pieces at one time. Currently, I see some of the same. J.P arencibia is not core piece nor should he be considered a core piece. He really is not that good of a hitter even for a catcher. For a catcher defensive wise hes ok but nothing special. Hes a very undisciplined hitter. Im going to reserve judgement on lawrie for now because hes very young. Escobar seems like a headcase and Im not comfortable calling him a core piece. The only justitified core piece on the roster now is bautista. The rest are question marks.

    • You were more hopeful for this team in 2009? When they had one of the worst farm systems in baseball and had to trade Roy Halladay?

    • easily the dumbest comment in here. and thats saying alot today

    • johnnyballpark don’t know shit. On this (if nothing else) we can all agree.

      • Spud, when did you start with the low blows. Johnny has a point. This team won 1 game on this trip. There are holes everywhere you look suddenly. It is impossible to have confidence in this pathetic group of underachieving cry-babies. Use all the stats, and histronics you want, but why would anyone pay to see these guys. BTW Good luck on 86 wins – don’t lose any money on that bet.

        • “This team won 1 game on this trip. There are holes everywhere you look suddenly. It is impossible to have confidence in this pathetic group of underachieving cry-babies. ”

          The point isn’t that the last 5 games haven’t sucked. They have. It’s been garbage.

          The point is to have some perspective, because it’s a 162 game season and literally just about every team in baseball goes through stretches like this (including the Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Phillies, and Angels already – and I’m not sure I’d write any of those teams off just yet).

          • James you are reiterating the same point as before. The holes are serious, we don’t have a 1st baseman, left fielder, SS and second are at best day to day, CF is a queswtion mmark, 3/5 of your starters have less than a year of experience, we have no #1 starter (sorry Ricky), our closer is hurt and the rest of the pen is either just up from AAA, or over-worked. Oh yeah, we need another big bat. All the upside chat about the farm, and there is no one in sight who can help this year or next. You wait the balance of the schedule and wait to see what this teams got. Well for starters here come the Red Sox and O’s. If you think we can win more than 2 games here, I’ll take your money. By the time the next to series are through you’ll be at least 2 games under .500 and we are in June then. Good luck on getting to 86 wins then.

  81. Love the histrionics.

    It’s great.

    We’re DOOMED! Sell everyone! Fire everyone!

  82. The ship is sinking!

    Play for yourself

    Play for your contract

  83. So how long can they keep D’Arnaud in AAA this year if he keeps hitting like this? Do they just keep him down there to keep him down there? He is 23 years old and is likely already a better overall hitter and defender than JPA (despite his two homeruns today).

    Let’s say they dont bring him up this year at all. (until september). Let’s say they wait till next. Then what? Does he sit behind JPA? Hell no. Does he move JPA to DH or 1b? I shoudl think hell no .

    so that leaves us with two JPA or trade D’arnaud.

    • I’ll say this: Snider, Lawrie, Thames, Cooper and even Gomes. All have had out of this world PCL stats just like d’Arnaud is starting to produce now. You could probably add Hechavarria and maybe Gose to that list when you compare it to their AA numbers. For all the hate that’s being directed to JPA his numbers are vs the best competition while catching at the major league level. The others on the list have all come back to earth and produced sub par or average numbers at the major league level. There’s no need to rush making a move with on or the other. We’ve all seen how our supposed depth in certain areas has evaporated in a blink of an eye before.

      • Add Mike McCoy and Jarrett Hoffpauir to the list of guys who have OPSd .900 in Vegas. That, and the fact that Lind currently looks like the second coming of Babe Ruth down there, should tell you everything you need to know. There is literally zero correlation between success in Vegas and success in MLB.

        I’d like to see if JPA can hit 30 HRs this year (he’s on pace for that, or close). I think the Jays could do really well trading him in the offseason if he can do that. If they traded him right now, probably not so much especially given how badly he sucked for most of April.

        They do need to trade him though because his bat doesn’t play anywhere else.

  84. Not saying we are doomed because of a 5 game losing skid just saying 3 years ago, i had much higher hopes…..not of the 2009 or 2010 team, but for the future. In 2009 I thought that by 2012 we woudl be competitive. I Thought we would have one of the best starting rotations in the league…the prospect of drabeck McGowan etc…
    Many holes need to be filled. If this season was a develomental season, and one could see that next year could be a competitive season i wouldnt complain, but without some major deals, i dont see next year being competitive either.
    When AA arrived he had a plan to develop talent, wait until the team was ready to make a run and then ask Rogers for some extra money to sign a couple players to put the team over the top….
    For how many more years will we hear, its good development, wait for a couple more years??
    I am dissapointed in the team.
    As the team is, the 2012 Jays finish under 500

    • we cant help you if you have stupid expectations and lose perspective and buy into everyone but the people that run the team and when things should happen. If you were more hopeful 3 years ago thats because you knew even less and were happy because you could dream in your own fantasy world. You are disappointed because in your dream world Rogers was going to magically spend twice as much and make a run at all these free agents. But as we know now its not a fantasy league, players and agents have a say in where players play and owners have a say in how much a marginal win is worth to them and GM’s have to deal with real world situations and restrictions fans dont always fully understand or consider or want to be bothered with. This year was still suppose to be a reveal year and the team was looking to “stay competitive” for band wagon fans but very few thought they would be true contenders until 3 teams that were suppose to blow everyone away fell flat. No GM in their right mind would start shipping off useful pieces yet so wait until deals can be done before everyone cry’s the team should be trading for players. The Tigers were suppose to be better than the Jays without Fielder. They now have fielder and he hasnt carried them to a great record yet…so why do Jays fans think he would have made the Jays 90+ win team? And would darvish be winning all the game he is if he wasnt on texas. Sure hes still good but its not like there are and will be other just as good or better for cheaper and easier to negotiate with.

      • You know Gus, at some point Rogers has gotta spend some dough to get us to the promised land. The wait, and see approach, the belief that if we just let these upside prospects develop is flawed. As the kids come in, the veterans skills erode. You will never win this way. The bloggers here who suscribe to waiting will never commit to a date that success will happen, becuase it never will. Of corse you will never be wrong in your assessment because success is always developing. The Toronto Cubs

  85. What I learned this weekend:

    Texas is the Best team in the AL
    The Blue Jays are not.

  86. A poster by the name of Xalvion made a post that got a lot of other people talking. It’s regarding Las Vegas 51′s and them being in a “hit friendly” league and how that may be sending the wrong signals to Blue Jays scouts and management.

    “Alright, something is really beginning to bug me.

    Yes, this past series in Texas was beyond annoying, but that’s not what I’m talking about.

    It’s the PCL.

    The Jays have had their AAA affiliate in Las Vegas since 2009. Prior to that (and dating back as long as the Jays have existed), their AAA team was in Syracuse. Syracuse plays in the International League, while the 51s play in the Pacific Coast League, a league that is rapidly becoming (in)famous for being a hitter-friendly circuit (to put it mildly).

    And therein lies the problem.

    Eric Thames raked in the PCL (.354 with huge RBI production) and everyone figures we’ve got a phenom on our hands. He’s promoted to the Jays and *pffffffffft*.

    Travis Snider destroys PCL pitching routinely, but struggles to be consistent in the majors.

    Now, Adam Lind (who can’t hit the ground falling out of a hammock while with the big club) is sent down to Vegas and is immediately transformed into Babe Ruth (3 HRs and 9 RBI in 8 games).

    I’ll acknowledge that this little stint in Homer Heaven will likely do wonders for Adam’s confidence level (at least for a while) if he returns to the Jays, but I have to wonder whether anyone in the front office really knows whether his problems have been corrected or if he’s just benefitting from what is obviously a skewed set of circumstances.

    I’m beginning to think that Toronto’s affiliation with Vegas and the PCL is misleading at best and, at worst, counter-productive when it comes to evaluating our talent. When a player is promoted from the minors after spending time there, do we *really* have a clue what we’ve got?

    Granted, that’s always going to be true to a certain extent, but shouldn’t you as least have a decent idea? If you’re evaluating talent based on flawed, tainted or even irrelevant data, how are you supposed to make sound decisions? Maybe it’s time to cut ties with Vegas and come back home to the IL.”

    • If you are reading that post and didnt already know this stuff I dont know what to say. Yes everyone know stats are skewed in the PCL.Yes the front office knows the stats are skewed and actually employ people to adjust these stats. Yes the front office wants a different affiliate. Getting a different affiliate is not easy and a team has be available or not renew with a different affiliate. The Jays can just come in and say “I want that team” Syracuse didnt disappear they are now with the Nationals I think, dont think any team will gladly break ties with their team to get the 51′s location….but thanks for the long write up…hope you enjoy mine.

    • Whoa. That’s some real cutting edge stuff, right there.

      In all seriousness, the Jays are acutely aware of what the PCL does to numbers. See the post on Jays Journal (referenced in a DJF post on Friday) and LaCava speaks to Vegas and inflated numbers.

    • In addition to what Gus and allisauce said, I don’t think anyone viewed Eric Thames as a phenom.

  87. A little thing from Twitter that bugged me last night… Lawrie gets on the plane and tweets if anyone knows any good tattoo shops in Toronto. Some guy makes on offhanded comment (and not completely undeserved I might add) that he might want to hit the batting cage instead of a tattoo shop.

    The ultimate cringe Joanna from Hum and Chuck tweets Brett calling him “dear” and don’t worry about all the Leaf fans being bitter. She then proceeds to list a bunch of tattoo shops for poor Brett thinking she is doing him some service and saving him from the frothing masses, thinking Brett is naive enough to follow her every tweet such as “ew”, “I lost my phone” and fifteen “Ump that was not a strike” tweets not even understanding how camera angles are misleading when watching balls and strikes on TV.

    I know, just unfollow her if you can’t take it but to me she is like driving by a car accident, you have to watch just for the morbidity of it all.

    I’m not saying a player needs to pout and skulk around after a beating, and keep in mind, no matter how you spin the weekend, the Rangers beat the Jays like rented mules. But a little perspective might be in order as to where your head is really at after coming off a bad series.

  88. ok my 2 cents

    last year the jays pitching was second last in walks, most in blown saves, second most in HR allowed

    this year last in walks by a wide margin, most in blown saves, 3rd most in HR allowed.

    See a fucking pattern? so when half the pitching has changed and you still have the same problem then it’s clearly time for this dipshit pitching coach to be fired. hentgen anyone?

    • they do not have the most blown saves and 5 teams have * blown saves (the actual number of blown saves) and there are 4 teams with 9 and one with 11. but yes they give up 3rd most Hrs and most walks. They have 36 shut downs (where the pitcher actually improved the teams chances of winning thats good for a tie at 9th, and they have 18 melt downs where the pitcher decreased the chance the team wins. Thats 6th best. Blaming pitching coaches for pitchers execution is ridiculous, do you know what the pitches coaches are telling them? Do you really think Bruce Walton is telling them to go out there and huff it over the middle and let teams jack it and walk the ones you dont want to let pad stats? Fucking seriously?

  89. Hey Stoeten, thanks for all the updates.

    Do you think it is time for a Dear John letter? I mean Thames batting 5th? Thames still on the ml roster?

    The team really needs some help in left field.. and bullpen (although impressed with Chavez sorta… and major help putting together a lineup.


    Davey Beers

  90. We can debate all we want about whether the Jays should be contenders by now or if they will contend in a couple years, but one think I think is obvious is that there have been some dissapointments this year so far.
    I had more expectations for Drabek, would have liked to have seen Snider up with the Jays, Bautista has cooled. Lind was never able to regain form.
    Romero hasnt been the ace they need lately. Cecil looks to be finished. Drabek continues to shit the bed after having a decent outing in his first match up with Yu Darvish. The closer situation was a mess when Coco was trying. Casey seems to be doing better for now.
    Granted I dont know as much about baseball as some of you so here is my question to the knowlegable posters.
    Who are the core players in the current lineup that will be with the Jays when they are contenders down the road? And who are the prosepects they are banking on to help them contend down the road?

    • The real answer would take hours.
      The short answer is nobody knows.
      The players who might be your core are the ones who have the ability to change and adapt,without physical breakdowns.
      If Lawrie can adapt to the way the pitchers are starting to pitch to him and then adapt again when they change again, then maybe he’s a core player.
      Prospects are even harder to predict.
      Stats tell us that 1 in 10 players drafted will have any impact.
      Out of the fab 4 in Lansing,maybe 1 becomes a stud in the Show.Maybe none.
      Morrow threw what experts call maybe the second best pitching performance in baseball history,yet he can still have his not so good days and is changing the way he pitches.
      This is what makes the simple game so hard.
      Adapt or die.

      • Thats part of my point. Everyone seems excited about the prospects and the development of the team, but with the odds of a prospect becoming a star being so low is it really something to get excited about? I know its part of the fun of baseball to watch the development but I think I would have been more excited about the signing of Yu Darvish than I am about the prospects of travis d’arnaud for example.
        From what you see, do the Jays have a reasonable prospect of competing in the near future (1-3 years) with the current players they have in the show or minors, or is Rogers going to have to poney up and start putting out some serious cash?

        • @ johnnybp

          You need all of the above.
          Teams rarely compete with the same roster for a full year.
          Typically they go through 7 to 8 starting pitchers and several position players with some good bench players as a backup.
          You need a strong farm system to provide that.
          The Jays were ranked with the 27th farm system in 2009, now they are approx. #3.But most of that is in the lower levels.
          People worry about excellent players getting blocked by major leaguers.If they’re that good they get traded for major league talent or the major league talent gets traded.But ya gotta have the talent to trade.What you can’t trade for, you buy on the FA market.
          I was mocked, when I mentioned minor leagues winning.But I want the major league players to be pushed by the AAA talent and that pushed by the AA talent.
          The Jays have also changed their on field philosophy when they changed managers.
          From aggresive,first pitch,power hitting to taking pitches,get the starter out,small ball.

    • On the hitting side, Id say bautista definitely and hopefully lawrie are core pieces. Pitching wise, Im thinking romero will turn it around and maybe morrow if he can find some consistency as core pieces. The rest are question marks. Rasmus can get there if he starts hitting better. Same with alvarez if he can do more k/9 than jeff mathis.

      • You really think Bautista will be a core piece by the time the Jays are ready to compete? He is already 31, is he still effective at 35?

        • if the jays were able to turn to near contenders now.. (just leass than 3 years into a franchise overhaul) considering they are only 2 games out of a playoff spot..why would it take 4 more years to become a contender? So I guess yes Bautista can be considered a core player and no that doesnt mean he will 35..he could be 32, 33, and 34…

      • Alvarez is an enigma. I liken him to the honey badger. He just throws strikes and says, here it is, hit it. I don’t give a shit.

        The honey badger likes to eat. The honey badger doesn’t give a fuck if he has to rattle a bees nest to get him some sweet honey. And he will go toe to toe with a snake for some delicious venoum infested protein.

        Alvarez likes to eat too. Only he eats innings. Give up some hits? Alvarez doesn’t give a shit. Just give me some innings and Avlarez is a happy honey badger.

        Strikeouts? Alvarez says that they are for pussies. A honey badger is not a pussy. Alvarez will ground ball you to death. Fuck strikeouts.

        Alvarez can pitch for my team anytime.

        • I would say Alvarez as an enigma is being figured out. He continues to not strike people out but he also gives up a fuck ton of dingers. Weird combination of a ground ball / gopher ball pitcher who doesn’t strike people out. sounds like a recipe for success to me.

  91. eric thames is a core player

  92. Here is a golden quote from the Toronto Star article written today by Mark Zwolinski.

    “That’s without mentioning the overextended bullpen — which needed an injection of fresh arms from Triple-A Las Vegas in Jesse Chavez and Chad Beck — or the fact that leaders like Brett Lawrie and Eric Thames have been silent for too long.”

    Eric Thames is a team leader? In what alternate reality is this true? Last I checked Thames could lie bleeding to death next to his teammates and they wouldnt even apply simple pressure to stop bleeding.

    Eric Thames as a team leader is so far removed from reality it really calls in to question the legitimacy of the writer’s position

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