Holy shitballs, who knew that Jays fans were so full-on thirsty for the opportunity for some good, old fashioned, staggeringly-moronic pants-shitting panic?

While there remain a lot of completely reasonable folks out there beating back the trolls with cool-headed logic, things sure have gone shit ape bonkers in the comments on this morning’s post about Eric Thames’ demotion. Because… y’know… what reason isn’t there to lose one’s mind after the completely reasonable and expected demotion of a guy who’d barely scraped past an at-his-worst Travis Snider on the depth chart, coming– as it did– on the heels of a great pitching performance from Drew Hutchison, a shitty road trip in which the club was two extra innings losses away from going 3-3 against very possibly the two best teams in baseball, and the thoroughly sane decision to demote Adam Lind, after the defensible– yet admittedly questionable– decision this winter to give one more go at squeezing some value out of what could have been an eminently team-friendly contract, had Lind ever managed to regain his 2009 form.

Thing is, I find it hard to entirely blame the casual– or dim-witted hardcore– fan for losing his or her shit when the ridiculous “Jays in Crisis” meme is being endorsed (read: milked for all its worth) by the mainstream media likes of Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star, and Steve Simmons of the Toronto Sun– who fills his piece with enough screaming idiocy to get it shit on by Toronto Sun readers and to make Griffin’s essay look rather quaint by comparison. These guys could combine forces to write as “Richard Simmons” and would still have trouble churning out this kind of panicky fucking dreck– but I bet they’d look fabulous doing it! HEYO!

“The buoyant optimism of spring training, the optimism of even a week ago, is guarded if at all apparent,” writes Simmons, as I begin gargling back the puke. “And just as troubling, has been the body language of several Jays players. Too many acting entitled, too many showing too little respect for the game, too many talking a better game than they have played.”

“Rather than talk like contenders,” he adds, about to drop a fourteen tonne shithammer onto our minds, “the Blue Jays have to play like them.”

Whoa! And apparently that has to start NOW, because, as Griffin says, “the result of Romero’s start on Tuesday will be huge for the Jays.”

“This series and this homestand are crossroads for the Blue Jays,” he tells us.

A crossroads!!! Good lord.

I mean, he creates terrific theatre for a throwaway series, I guess, but he sure as fuck is playing fast and loose with anything resembling the truth. This is a crossroads? Seriously?

It isn’t… I don’t know… kinda exactly where you’d expect a halfway decent team to have muddled their way to at this point in the year? I mean, this kind of doom and gloom might make sense if the Jays had been forecast to run away with the division or something, but when did they not have the look of a club that was going to be OK enough to keep their heads above water, hoping for some young players to over-perform, or to come up and give them a boost in the second half, to catch a break in the form of some poor play from their division rivals and maybe sneak into the second Wild Card spot? And how the fuck is that not still totally the case?

It’s not a sexy position to be in, granted, but they’re doing the best they can to find a combination of talent on the 25-man roster that works– and don’t get confused by Mike McCoy or David Cooper (or Rajai Davis against right-handers), because Vlad Guerrero and Travis Snider will be here as soon as they’re ready, and the knocks on the door from Travis d’Arnaud are getting louder with each passing week.

Yes, it’s easy for certain fans to get sanctimonious about the club not having done enough in the off-season to load the roster with talent, but that brick wall of an attitude is, I think, going to have to be run into over and over and over again, no matter how many times people are reminded that the Jays were spurned by some free agents, rightly felt other contracts being given out were absurdly bad, similarly felt the price in prospects was too rich for some trades, or didn’t have the MLB-ready pieces coveted in others.

It happens. And this ain’t sexy either, but it’s true: doing nothing is better than doing something stupid. Besides, the Jays did much of their roster construction in the twelve months previous. And clearly the club will continue to look to the trade deadline, when more teams will have pieces on the market than did over the winter– if maybe not as many as in previous years, thanks to the additional Wild Card berth in each league. If they feel they have the opportunity to make a September run, they’ll have the resources to upgrade the team, and if they don’t, they’ll be able to continue adding to their excellent young talent base by potentially offloading free-agents-to-be like Kelly Johnson, Edwin Encarnacion, Francisco Cordero, Jason Frasor and Darren Oliver.

They can’t really go wrong either way, so unless, for some inex-fucking-plicable reason you’ve decided to put all your cheer-eggs into the 2012 basket, there isn’t a whole fuckload to worry about right now. Frankly, they’ve probably done better than they should have so far, with Romero having not been his best, and three-fifths of the rotation made up of Kyle Drabek and two guys born in the 90s.

The Jays remain a team with holes, yet a pretty good team, with lots of guys who can get better, and the honest-to-fuck ability to maybe hang in the race long enough to really get rolling, get some help, and possibly even make some kind of an unlikely run.

That would have been true if they’d managed to beat Texas in extra-innings on Saturday, only I’m pretty sure nobody would have been going off the deep end far enough to make it necessary to fucking say so.

Comments (147)

  1. Yeah

  2. WELL PUT.

  3. Amen. I fucking hate Steve Simmons….my God, how does that guy have a job in professional sports?

  4. I don’t want to off-load Kelly!

    • If Kelly and the Jays don’t agree to a long term deal, do you think the Jays offer him the 1-year $12.5 million-ish qualifying offer to potential keep him around?

      • I think they might. Was asked this last night on Twitter, and I just honestly have no clue. It’s not a terrible strategy, because I think you probably get close to enough value from him for that price, if he says yes, especially considering that you don’t have to go multi-year. It’s probably an overpay, but a reasonable overpay in exchange for fewer years. Same with Edwin. And if they say no, you get the picks.

        What I wonder, though, is if they might rather trade them mid-season for something closer to the Majors. Of course, that all depends on what anyone is offering, and it’s kinda uncharted waters for rental player trades, given the new CBA.

        • If you could get someone close to the majors who is a top prospect or maybe even a struggling young player (Belt, LoMo), then I would do it.

          I actually like the idea of overpaying on short-term deals rather than being locked in long-term. They are way less risky, and more easy to move.

          • Now I’m just gonna go off dreaming, and envisioning the Jays trading Edwin for Belt, then signing Ortiz in the off-season…

        • It would be a pretty safe risk if the player is intent on getting multiple years and more money. Personally I’d prefer they sign him as I just don’t see Hech’s bat cutting it right now. Let’s face it, every single Jays hitter brought up the last two years who has had great AAA numbers at PCL has been an eventual bust at the major league level as far as first go arounds. It amazes me how so many are quick to jettison guys like KJ, Escobar and EE when they’ve proven they’re good major league hitters. Those kind of hitters don’t grow on trees. If those guys are let go then you’d have the makings of a team that’s very similar to the 2008 Toronto Blue Jays team that had decent to very good pitching and sucked balls offensively. FFS people complain enough about our hitters and yet they want to throw 3 good ones away and go to the unproven kids with fantasy inflated PCL numbers.

          • It’s the lure of prospect porn and it is easy to get sucked into it.

            I completely believe Johnson is worth a three year deal and give the guy some fucking money. Keep Edwin for three as well. Proven players that can play and if the prospects work out, then you have two pieces and the need for only one, so you have ASSETS, which can be sold for pieces you are missing like a first baseman (because I don’t see one in the system on any level).

          • Just realized I said “proven” players in the case of EE that might be premature. Still better than the unknown imo.

          • I agree that Johnson and EE shouldn’t be jettisoned so quickly, but there’s a risk of losing them for nothing, and that absolutely can’t happen.

          • Agreed. I am shocked that the team would let Edwin go now that he has finally figured out to hit & play passable defense at 1B. The Jays had to endure his growing pains in 2009,10 & 11, so why get rid of him?

            It’s not like the Jays have another big bat hanging around.

            They have a better case with bring up Hech later in the season, but I would be happy f they signed Kelly Johnson to a 3 year 25 million contract. He is a big upgrade over AAron Hill.

          • exactly

      • The more I think of it, the more I see why the Jays might be hesitant to extend Kelly right now. I want them to in many ways, but they still have Hechavarria coming possibly, if he figures out to hit somewhere without inflated Vegas stats. He and Escobar — who also isn’t going anywhere anytime soon I would hope — might be our middle infielders for a couple of years. MAYBE.

        I’m not much of a gambler, however, and I’d prefer we stick with Kelly for now seeing as Hech is definitely no guarantee.

        Also, it’s probably not a good idea to extend every damn player who puts up a couple of good months. People want KJ and EE extended — and there are good reasons for extending them — but we all know what a fluke year might earn a player who has no business earning an extension based on their shitty play in the future (Lind, I’m looking at you.)

        • KJ for LF!

        • EE has done his hitting over the better part of 2 different seasons now. I think if it was just a hot streak or a fluke we’d have seen so by now.

          As for the risk of losing KJ and EE, to me that’s easily manageable by Rogers by putting up the cash. Surely it should be easier to extend guys already with the team than players from outside the organization that really don’t know anything about the club or the city.

        • KJ has had a pretty steady career except for last year.

          Edwin is finally free of the demons that plagued him at 3B

        • Johnson isnt a gamble. The guy has hit over 20 HR’s in the previous 2 years and is on pace this year for close to 30. Very few other 2B’s come close. And his glove is above average.

  5. More important than wins or losses, I think it’s reasonable to focus on whether the development of key players is moving in the right direction. I think Drabek, Hutch, and Alvarez have been slightly disappointing in aggregate while still showing that each might have decent futures. JPA has been solid since the first 2 weeks. Lawrie has disappointing – when did he become Wade Boggs – and 1B/LF has been a disaster. But remember, this time last year Juan Rivera, Corey Patterson, Jayson Nix, JoJo Reyes, Jon Rauch and Mike McCoy were all on the roster. Until this afternoon, we’d cleared them all off. So, stay the course, and hope Joey Bats remembers how to knock in more than 2 runs in a game (he hasn’t done it yet this year).

    • I don’t think its fair to say that those three pitchers have been disappointments.
      They are all 24 and under and have about 50 starts in the majors between them.
      There are going to be more bad days but hopefully we get to see them develop and improve.
      I’ve been very impressed with Alvarez and Hutchinson so far considering where they were this time last year.
      Drabek has the talent it just remain to be seen if he can become more consistent.
      It took Morrow and Romero a while to get to where they are now so no point cutting bait this early.
      The future is bright.

      • I would rather see our 3 kids ( Alvarez,Drabek & Hutchison) on the moud than having to endure spot starts from Tallett, Eveland & Jo Jo Reyes.

    • “I think Drabek, Hutch, and Alvarez have been slightly disappointing in aggregate while still showing that each might have decent futures.”

      I think that’s a bit harsh. It’s definitely fair to say that our #3, #4 and #5 starters have been a bit disappointing, but that’s mostly because they were meant to be Alvarez, Cecil and McGowan.

      Drabek has been disappointing compared to his early season form, but that’s only because that great form came out of nowhere. He has at least shown that he can have success in the majors if he can get his command together. Hutch has been pretty good given that he has been rushed. I was hoping for more from Alvarez. His secondary pitches don’t seem to be progressing.

  6. But Parkes has already deemed the season to be over. He has a stat that proves it’s pointless to carry on and play the full schedule. And he’s definitely not a troll right? Right?

    • Parkes is wrong about the season being over. Doesn’t he know what the Rays & Cardinals did last year to get to the playoffs?

  7. Stoeten, always the angry and profanity-laced voice of reason.

  8. At some point (probably because of the ridiculous spring training record) a lot of people forgot that this was not a team ready to seriously compete. There were a lot of questions to be answered regarding this teams needs and we are just finding out these answers now and the team will be in a better position to move forwards.

  9. Panic is the currency of the news, why should we even be surprised that the star and sun would print that kind of bullshit. And well there is no excuse for people in the comments sections..sometimes it is just fun to type havoc…saying that I don’t think that sending Thames down is that big of a deal. So what they get another guy to come in and do some damage…and say what you want about Cooper not being a power bat at first base.. if he is hitting clean up with 3 guys on the bags and hits a single into right, well hell i would still take the 2 runs. Still lots of baseball against shit teams, and this season is way too young still to be wearing dooms day signs.

  10. I think the equation goes something like this: Terrific spring + middling start by the New Yorks and Bostons x the first placiness of the Baltimores + the square root of getting kicked in the spheres by the Texans = much pants soiling in Blue Jays Nation. I recall last year the Blue Jays getting thoroughly dominated by the Red Sox (the best team in baseball at the time) over a three game series and the season didn’t disappear up Steve Simmons’s ass. I just try to enjoy it for what it is. May I make one humble request of my favourite baseball team though: STOP WALKING THE WHOLE FUCKING BALLPARK!! Just please, make it stop.

    • +1, and I would humbly add, AND MAYBE DRAW THE ODD FUCKING WALK

    • That was the worst series ever. It hurt so much to watch it.

      Texas last week was a fucking honeymoon by comparison.

      We not only had two extra innings games, but we led in extra innings in one of them. In fucking Arlington.

    • Very good point. I think expectations for the team were raised with the record spring training performance.

      The decline of the yankees & red sox give the Jays hope because the second wild card was supposed to be won by the Laa Angels, who are still weak.

      Brunt & Mccowan said this is the year to take advantage of the relative weakness of the other teams & go for it.

      Brunt is a rationale person.

  11. DEAR ALL JOB SEEKERS: Steve Simmons is proof-positive that the best, most-qualified, or smartest guy does not always get the job! Darwinism is a lie!!!

  12. Before the Ranger’s series, we were only three games back from them. As truly heartbreaking as that series was, it’ll happen against the most dangerous lineup in the MLB.

    This season has been fun so far. I hope we stay entertained for the rest of it, too!


  14. The fact that there are over 200 comments about the demotion of struggling 4th outfielder type is what really has me bamboozled.

  15. is the argument even about 2012??…which, IMO, was a pretty foregone conclusion when they didn’t act in the off-season. From the start of this year my mind moved to 2013 or 2014.

    But what concerns me now is whether we’re even on a path for 2013/2014 or whether they’re going to cop out again and say ‘uh….contend in 2014/2015 folks!’

    i’m a bloody broken record, but my concern is that you have to find a way to align the emerging talent of your farm with the still-strong performance of the veterans (even if they’ve got only a couple years in the majors).

    i’m concerned that 2012 is showing signs that AA’s roadmap isn’t going exactly as planned…that his existing chips and traded chips are under performing and the folks he thought would likely be trade-bait (EE, Johnson) are giving rise to questions about whether we’d better hang on to them.

    I’ll further bet that the hope was that at least 1 guy like Thames (or Viz or Oliver or Cordero or Lind) would perform well enough to act as lesser trade-bait. That didn’t/hasn’t happened either. Who the hell wants those guys? Well, not for anything of the level that we need.

    So now we’ve got a bunch of guys who we thought maybe would be part of something in 2013 who are, as a group (ie i’m sure it wasn’t assumed they’d all have great years) under-performing (Rasmus/Bautista/Escobar/Romero/Draybek) and then we’ve got some guys that a WS seeking team probably doesn’t really want – Thames/Lind/Cooper/etc. that we’re not going to get lucky flipping, and then we’ve got a promising farm group that we’re not yet sure about whether some or all of them will develop into the kind of high level talent needed to win a WS.

    so the question isn’t about 2012. Its about whether we’re on any sort of reasonable course to contend in 2013 or 2014…or whether we’re rather on a course that at best is going to keep us performing as a .500 club in the toughest division.

    …which probably ain’t likely to be good enough…

    so the panic button is more like ‘uh…someone should do some serious evaluation of the course here’. ie set a timetable for bringing up the farm and see if that shows promise. Otherwise maybe AA needs to change course a bit?

    • why are people now spelling Drabek with a Y. How the fuck does that start happening?

    • Do you think they just sit around and get drunk at the Jays office?

      Do you really not think they have plans and contingencies?


    • Oliver and Cordero certainly will have trade value.

      Also… holy fuck on everything else you wrote.

      • I think that’s a little harsh. Aside from the theoretics I quite agreed with the gentleman. His timetable is much more realistic to me than any I’ve dreamed up.

    • I think the Jays have to decide whther or not they want to compete for 2013 or 2014.

      It’s hilarious to see the ad with Lind & santos& Dustin Mcgowan during games.

      Will Santos pitch before Canada Day? Is Dustin a september callup?

      • yes, that’s kind of what I’m wondering.

        if they’re still thinking of contending in 2013/2014 then that’s why it might be suggested that they ought to take a look at the farm at majors level in the next while to get a sense of whether that’s going to be realistic. Having the same questions come next spring is going to put them in a situation where they just don’t have the flexibility to react to anticipated results being out of sync with the actual results.

        if they’re no longer thinking of contending on 2013/2014 then, and this really bums me out, it might be such that they have to let go of some of the on-field talent before it loses too much value – Romero/Bautista/Morrow for example. If these guys productive years are not going to align with the timeframe to contend, then the sad reality is that the club gains nothing from waiting until they lose value. At the moment that happens it will again be the same situation where they can at best field a fairly quality .500 team, but one that realistically cannot contend in the most unforgiving division in baseball.

        personally i’d rather them find a way to stay the 2013/2014 course..but i know that this is me being partially part of the ‘win now’ slobbering masses…its just that Bautista and Morrow and Romero are such exciting likeable characters that as a fan you want to see the team succeed while they’re here.

        it just doesn’t really look like the team is currently set on the 2013/2014 course. Not unless the farm is going to prove to be as electrifying as some claim and that they can get some experience in prior to a full season of making a real go at contention.

        It is beginning to look risky to assume that Bautista/Morrow/Romero/Escobar are going to still be producing enough beyond 2014 to be part of a contending team.

        Starting pitching is everything and the best we’ve had was when it was Marcum/Romero/Cecil/Morrow. From that point on its becoming a bit of a see-saw where new talent shows promise while existing talent declines a bit.

        who do you think is going to be the front end starters come 2014? Do you really think Romero/Morrow are still going to be there?? Do you think the front end is going to be some 23 year old??

        the path is really unclear the longer they extend the timetable. each time they extend it, the controlled on-field chips start to look out-of-sync with the controlled farm/prospect chips.

        IMO it would seem that gap would have to be filled through trade/free agency acquisition. And I might argue that the jays were 2 players away from a solid Wild Card contending worth team this year – 1 starter, 1 bat.

        I’d argue that extending the timeframe to 2014 is going to mean that they might find themselves requiring 2 starters, 2 bats to plug the gap between decline of Bautista/Romero and call ups of high ceiling starters and fiedling/bats like d’arnaud and Hev.

    • Dumbassery isn’t appreicated.

  16. sigh. the fucking wilner-ites are drinking the kool aid.


  17. Couldnt the jays have used Roy Oswalt?

    • You are thinking of Cole Hamels and we already have his exact copy in double AA, or wherever Cecil is playing.

      • No Im sure hes talking about roy oswalt, Since he is still a free agent last I looked. Not sure how good idea or if it was a possibility but Im sure he was siting the ight guy

        • He was never coming here. He rejected Boston and LA too, apparently. Wanted to play near home.

        • Did’t want to come to Toronto. Told them no go in the offseason. And he signed with Texas today…

  18. I like the wordsmithing craftsmanship of “pants-shitting panic”, combining as it does elements of both alliteration and assonance. So +1 for that. However, why worry about the phenomenon itself? Is it not an integral part of the culture of this site? If there weren’t posters on here ready to blow up the whole team and fire AA and Farrell every time they lose a series, I’d think I was in the wrong place.

  19. LOL @ this delusional bearded hippie who thinks he knows more than people who’ve been covering the game since before was shat a diaper.

    The ‘TO-teams-in-crisis’ theme comes to the surface very quickly in this town, and anyone with half a brain-cell knows that. It also comes with good reason, as most TO teams have outright sucked, especially the Jays (when was the last time they made the post-season)?

    • By that logic, since you’re probably younger than me, who gives a fuck what YOU think? #owned

    • The depth of development that has taken place within the Jays organization over the last two years is the envy of the major leagues. Fact. It’s been 20 years since the Leafs could even come close to making a similar claim. Note to hockey fans: Baseball requires an attention span.

    • @ CJF

      Stoeten’s right this time. For both Simmons and Griffin to hit the panic button after 1 road trip is silly.Before that everyone was celebrating a sweep of the Yanks and a series win over the Mets,putting the Jays into the playin spot.
      So which is it?
      The crossroads of a season that defines the balance of the year?
      I don’t think so.
      Are they WS bound?Were they ever?No, not likely.But not horrible either.
      Too many games left,many more roster moves to make,etc.
      It seems the memory of last years WS winner and their late season comeback has faded.
      BTW. I turn 89 next Thursday and I still read the “delusional bearded hippies” opinion.I even agree with him sometimes.
      ( don’t let him know that,I have my image to uphold)

    • Espcially the Jays? The Jays have been the best of the bunch in recent history. The lack of post season appearances has a lot to do with the fact the bar is a lot higher in baseball. And they play in the toughest division.

      I keep bringing this up to the troglodytes who just mindlessly repeat the “The Jays suck cause they’re never in duh playofffs!!!” meme, but if the contexts were the same, and MLB had the same playoff set up as NBA or NHL, the Jays are an annual playoff team. Even though they’d actually be the exact same team as they’ve been. So please stop bringing up playoffs as a means of evaluation without adjusting for context. It’s unfair and doesn’t tell you much.

  20. Jays are also still in the middle of one of the toughest stretches of the season in terms of opponents, other than the Mets.

    • you call the oriels tough? pfft. you can’t expect to let up on the gas peddle and win.. thats what happened the last two times they played Baltimore.

  21. There’s still plenty of upside left in the season and more so if they are able to upgrade at the deadline imo.

    As I said above, I certainly hope they are not sellers especially of guys like EE and KJ. Considering what’s out there and what we’ve got in the minors as short-term replacements it would be an epic mistake for the clubs fortunes in the next 2-3 years if those guys were allowed to walk. People need to understand that each of those guys is an above average hitter at their positions while Escobar and Johnson supply pretty good defense as well. You’re not going to get that with infield prospect at AA or AAA anytime soon. GM’s always talk about building for strength up the middle and this team has it in spades. Why on earth would you want to tamper with that? Hechavarria should prove himself as a utility guy first and foremost.

    I think this team has turned the corner in the pitching department or is certainly on it’s way. The core is there for the position players but with Rogers cheap fuckery during the JPR era there was bound to be a gap imo and we’re starting to see it a little bit with failures of some of our latest 1st round picks and lack of depth in other spots. AA’s repair job is going to take another couple of years to start showing the real fruits of his labour.

    It’s kind of disappointing that EE’s agent is saying there’s been no negotiations on a contract extension. I really don’t understand what AA’s waiting for. Check out his last 6 months of numbers (couple days short of a full season’s worth):

    89 R 34 2B 32 HR 110 RBI 56 BB 92K 13 SB . 277 AVG . 346/.523/.869

    You’ve got Bautista as example of a guy who turned it around at a similar age and there’s one more player people should look at and that’s David Ortiz. He made a similar jump in stats albeit a few months earlier starting in his 28th year. Yes EE probably isn’t going to put up numbers quite as good as Papi in his prime but anything north of an .850 OPS in the majors where offense in general is on the decline is prime and shouldn’t be tossed away. EE is also a lot more athletic than Ortiz and can help you out more in a pinch.

    In EE and KJ’s situation I’d definitely say Rogers needs to pry that wallet open and spend now before those guys get really expensive.

    • Well argued, Manimal. Well done.

    • Your realization that the timelines in baseball are staggeringly long and complete refusal to resort to ad hominem attacks disgusts me, sir.

    • Good points. Ortiz, Bautista & Edwin are all from the dominican republic.

      I think Eddie likes playing here now & I think AA will make him an offer.

    • I think this has been mentioned on this blog a number of times, but the “Rogers needs to open up the purse strings” argument doesn’t hold water. I don’t think AA is handcuffed with respect to EE and KJ extensions. It’s a simple formula: If the Jays think they’re worth an extension, then they should try to extend in-season for less than $12M / year (likely 3 years + an option as a max). If EE or KJ want more, then the Jays make a qualifying offer of 1 year at $12.5M in the off season and take the 1st Round pick when they walk. If they come back at no long term risk, great.

      It comes down to AA and the organizations evaluation of both guys. They may get deals done for much less than $12M / year – who knows?

      • I can’t see another reason for them not to resign those guys other than money when you look at what we have internally or what’s available externally. So to me that puts the onus totally on Rogers. Maybe the money is already there who knows. I just would really hate to see them walk because of dollars. That would send a bad message imo for a team that’s supposed to make the playoffs 3 out of the next 5 years.

        • Why do they need to send the right message? They’ve built a competitive team with nothing but upside… Why dedicate long term deals to players entering their decline? No doubt they are fine players, but overpaying just to keep them isn’t the answer.

          The key is to get the best return:
          1. 1 yr of a player at the right price
          2. Multiple yrs of a player at good value
          3. A 1st Round compensation pick
          4. A solid prospect (or 2) from an in season trade

          Who the Jays have currently to replace EE and KJ shouldn’t really factor in. If they get a solid return, they can replace these 2 players by moving other assets.

          • Because you have to overpay at times and if you want to use FanGraphs $/WAR calculation for free agents, the deals I’m thinking about don’t come anywhere close to overpaying them.

            It’s not always an economics exercise as much as some pretend it is especially when you factor in cost of opportunity. The opportunity is now and the next couple of years for this group. Both are proven and among the best at their positions right now why create more holes for yourself when a relatively small outlay on a yearly basis will get you both. By your reasoning we should have let Jose walk.

            The days of getting draft picks with any kind of ceiling for rental players are gone. Have a look at the new CBA, you’d get modest returns if you’re lucky for a rental of EE. As for any compensation pick for KJ, again who knows what you’re going to get and how long that pick will take to produce. AA has said that his goal isn’t to permanently be in prospect acquisition mode. With the new CBA making things tougher to get higher ceiling guys to fall deeper in the draft it’s not going to be as likely you’ll score a Sanchez as a sandwich pick.,

            By letting PROVEN talent go for mediocre prospects you’re just increasing your risks and pushing your timeline for contention further down the road with no guarantee when the time comes you’ll be better off all to maximize every last penny in a transaction. Sounds more like you’re a bean counter for Rogers than anything else.

            Also what’s it going to do to the fanbase when you’re A) trading off the teams best hitter this year for prospects, B) letting a top guy at his position go for money reasons.

            You worry about overpaying, by offering Johnson the $12 million there’s a chance he could take it (though small) and you would have just overspent by possibly $3-4 million.

            And yes it certainly does matter who will replace those guys because next year you have to play and compete, the fans don’t want to hear about stocking up on prospects again especially when none of them will bring the quality of what the Jays got for Halladay. Since the goal is to continually to improve the smart thing is to add to what you have with your prospects as one of the assets to facilitate that. The goal at this stage of the game is to not take two steps back be worse in those positions and hope the prospects you get can be moved to equal what you had already had.

            As for the age thing both are still relatively young with EE being 29 and KJ just turned 30. If they were both 31 or 32 it would be another matter especially when you’re only talking 2-3 year deals (at least I am)

          • Letting Jose walk is crazy (plus he was still in his arbritation years, so he wasn’t going anywhere). And, hindsight being what it is, he’s a steal at $14M – no matter what position he plays.

            I think the only difference in our reasoning is that you think the window is over the next 2-3 years, and I think that the window should be open indefinitely. It’s always going to take some luck to win this division, why limit your timeline?

            You don’t need to replace a 2B with a 2B or a DH with a DH. They will find guys to play those positions. Especially DH. They likely won’t find a guy who is mashing like EE is now, but they may bring in an up-the-middle player who adds considerable value elsewhere.

            And, $12M for 1 year of KJ is not an overpay. I think that 2-3 year deals for KJ and EE are both good ideas. But to sign them BOTH for multiple years with an annual salary over $12M/yr doesn’t seem like a smart business decision. There are likely other factors that we won’t hear about, but if both players want to come back then the team’s goal should be to maximize their value, not to overpay them.

  22. If only all Jays fans/reporters had your common fucking sense…

  23. At least the fan base isn’t apathetic.
    Gotta love all the passion for the Jays.
    Even the DJF facebook is gettin more licks everyday.
    Let chaos reign.
    Better than silence.

    • That’s true. Someone upthread was wondering why all the hullabaloo about a fourth outfielder type being demoted to AAA. It shows that there is a large, interested fan base out there.

  24. I still expect an 85 win season. Anything more will be awesome.

    People’s minds assploded when the Jays had a good spring. And then they assploded again when Texas beat the living shit out of the team this weekend.

    Get over it folks. Lots of great baseball to come!

    Fuck I love this sport!

  25. Ladies who work inside prison walls are told to shit and piss themselves at the start of rioting. Lot of Jays fans could work inside the walls, they have the trouble reaction already down.

    • “Ladies who work inside prison walls are told to shit and piss themselves at the start of rioting. ”


      • Jeez Stoeten,don’t tell me that’s turning you on.
        More than a little kinky, even for a “delusional bearded hippy”.

      • Reduces odds of being forcibly raped. Takes the lead out of even the most ardent pencils.

    • Wow. I have learned lots on this blog, but never anything like this.

  26. So back to square one.

    Don’t expect much more than a middling team from here to eternity until Rogers ups the budget and can augment the home grown with some FA’s

    …only if fans come out

    …and only if the team proves to AA it’s ready to win

    After 15 plus years you’d think the Sheep-ple would be on to this never ending game

    • Some pigs never learned. We have the majority of the sheeple kept in playful ignorance.

    • This argument wouldn’t be nearly so dumb as fuck if the Jays hadn’t upped the budget precisely how you scoff that they’ll never do about five years ago, or if cheap old Rogers hadn’t been spending more and more money on this team every year since AA took over, eating money to facilitate better deals, extending their own talent, actually increasing attendance without papering the house Godfrey-style, creating a farm system that’s the envy of the league, or if it weren’t blazingly fucking obvious how tough it is to actually hit on a giant free agent signing that doesn’t blow up in your face– if they’ll even sign to play here in the first place.

      Other than all those things, you got a nice little piss stain of an argument on your pants.

      • +1 Stoeten

      • Our farm system is the envy of the league? Some nice peices, but nothing that will give us a WS win in the future. AA would love to read this though. Not all of us have swolled the coolaid just yet. Hey Andrew when are we going to win?

        • It would be nice to see the Jays farm system produce some position players.

        • Lol you’re an idiot, if you actually knew what was in the farm system you wouldn’t be saying this shit.

        • “One of the many reasons criticism of Rogers Communications, the owner of the Blue Jays, for being stingy with free agents is so ignorant is that the club has spent aggressively in the amateur markets during the past three years, grabbing high-ceiling high school players and Latin American prospects by stockpiling picks and paying whatever it took to sign those players. They are the organization most likely to be No. 1 on this list next winter.”

          K.Law, on his way to ranking the Jays farm system as 3rd best in MLB.

          Just one of many experts with similar opinions on the Jays farm system.

        • Brett Lawrie technically was in the Jays farm rankings, just not necessarily homegrown. Not to mention d’Arnaud, Gose and Hech are all raking at Triple-A and 2 of the three are this close to making the majors.

          I called you an idiot cause you sound like one, you totally lambast the farm system without any actual info to back it up your opinion of why you think the farm system isn’t good.

          • “We will win the AAA title for sure”

            You really have no idea about anything outside of the MLB, do you.

      • And round and round we go…the convenience of talking out of both sides of your mouth while trolling to boot

        Oh by the way what flavor kook aid is that?

        To expand on the earlier point. A 60-80MM payroll and good farm mgmt in this division will net you 81 wins +\- 5

        The fandom will remain on the treadmill of hopes and ifs and buts. To really compete there needs to be selective augmentation with FA’S. Wouldn’t have FA been better than Mencherson in 08? Or a number 3 starter in behind Halliday and Burnett.

        Wouldnt a 2 or 3 starter stabilized things this year, how about anyone of a cf, lf, 1b or dh?

        You argument of lambasting the FA is the equivalent of trying to compete with one hand tied behind your back. And treating this sport as an exercise in financial management firstly is curious.

        The object is the acquire first rate talent by any means possible. Why give ownership a constant pass and lack of accountability on the one glaring area in FA absentia

        It’s pretty closed minded view IMHO unless, of course your are indeed trolling by talking out of both sides of your mouth….ala Wilner

        • beacuse the team does not exist a in a bubble or vacuum and there are other teams that also compete for free agents. You base your argument on the fact that no signing means they didnt try,and not signing one at all cost is inexcusable, not that no free agent signing meant they either priced themselves to high, or just didnt want to play for the Jays. until you can prove that they balked on a FA that was willing to sign for a market value price and the jays refused him than you are just evaluating the issue with blinders. Which free agent has carried their team to a better record or better standing than the current jays? I can safely say the angels, and tigers were both considered better teams last year than the jays and would be considered better teams even without pujols and fielder but they are not in first in any of their divisions. So what would that look like here?

          • Hey Gus, can I try this one…how about a FA pitcher wirh some pedigree (no not Darvish), arounf the 8 to 10 Million mark and putting Drabek back in AAA. If your 87 wins is correct and our FA Pitcher is 3 wins beeter that Drabek, its wildcard time. 1 Game win over Tampa, and into the ALCS. Cherry koolaide all around

          • hey bird dawg name the fucking free agent pitcher that they didnt try for? You make it sound like they didnt try not that the didnt succeed. Not disputing they could use a pitcher..but what free agent pitcher are you thinking of genius?

        • Wouldn’t an FA been better than any of these guys? even though you had no idea who was available, and if they were even worth it?

          Did the Jays not throw the most amount of money to Carlos Beltran this year? Of course you didn’t consider that either, cause you just came here to whine and complain.

    • Holy fuck back the fuck away from the keyboard.

  27. The McCoy move is a short term one indeed. However it pains me to think we are going to have to watch HACK ART Rajai Davis take a regular turn vs righties in the next week.

    Well at least the defense out there will be improved.

    I have noticed that Rajai’s arm varies from extreme shit to quite strong from throw to throw.

    • Agreed, hopefully it’s as short-term as we’re being led to believe it is. Hopefully the pitchers are in a better frame of mind knowing that Thames isn’t likely to butcher a ball hit his way. Maybe they’ll trust their stuff more.

  28. No one has mentioned the real reason behind Thames’ miserable season at the plate:

    The Umps are out to get him and they tried their hardest to screw him over.

  29. Im not pushing the panic button yet. But Im certainly on suicide watch, but no-one’s really watching me.

    Thats okay, because I believe. Believe that there’s a shot at getting Roy Hobbs off waivers.

    What I’m scared and frustrated about is how downright sinister this division has become. No-one is below 5 hunny, and I really think thats how it will end. This division is like a pack of midgets showing up at a Brooklyn pickup game of basketball, but Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Nowitski, and Nash are on the other team. Its just un-fukin-fair.

  30. The Jays havent been as good since the “Man in the White Shirt” Controversy.” huh huh? lol

  31. Im not panicking, just trying to enjoy the games, but how many years or how many losses would it take before you ran out of patience with the team and got dissapointed?
    Just wondering

    • Who me? Im in until the bitter end. No matter what the record.

      I just like to vent once in a while and say things like cocksucker, and twatlips.

    • most are loyal because they grew up cheering for the team or because they are a canadian team. others liked some era that grabbed them. If you rationally pick the Jays as your favorite team based on current players and management, they wouldnt be that disappointed. If a fan of the team is going to constantly want the Jays to be just like some other team, why not just like that team than? Do you give up on your country everytime a dumb as politician gets in power? if so we dont need those types either.

  32. It will be worth watching the attendance in the coming weeks. If the media is telling the average fan that the bloom is off the rose I hope that doesn’t affect attendance.

  33. Well I can confidently say that with the Rangers now having Oswalt signed, whatever delusions I had of the Blue jays winning the World Series this year just got terminated.

  34. I am highly anticipating Vladdy joining the team, he is such an improvement over guys like Cooper and Lind. Ultimately I’d like to see Ben Francisco gone, thames gone… vladdy/snider/gomes

  35. No panic button yet. Besides, the O’s are starting to fall apart. Two weeks from now, the standings could be very different. Thames demotion was a good thing, his defence isn’t that great, his hitting sucks, like Adams did. Whatever, this is my team…the only team of any sport I will ever follow, this team, for the most part, has a great starting line-up that usually gives this team the chance to win. Had luck gone the Jays way a couple times, a couple blown saves not having happened, this team would be in first place…GOJAYSGO!

  36. I’d just like to applaud you (Stoeten) for the term “cheer-eggs”. Bravo.

  37. I think you guys have beaten this straw man to death in previous posts, no need to keep posting the same 10 paragraph faux rants again and again.

  38. Holy fuck, the Jays have one good game in their past week, no – hit McCoy is here, re-tred Vlad is on his way, that good -for-nothing; nobody likes him anyways Thames is gone, Cooper the great is here, we like Rasums for now, DJF’s have no expectaations other than who can be patient the longest, and we all torch anyone who dosn’t fucking agree with our brilliant collective mind-set, and yes BJ’s are on a grat roll. Is there anyone here that wants to win in 2012?? No panic if we don’t have to win. No wise ones that dosen’t mean we don’t need to spend billions on Darvish, Fielder and Pujols.

  39. JPA’s stock is pretty high right now, would it be fucking crazy to trade him for now (fora #3 SP) and bring up d’Arnaud? I think TDA’s time has come, I for one am stoked to see this kid.

  40. Stoeten hit the shit-nail on the shit-head, again.

  41. No reason to panic – it’s still way early! I’m on board and not going anywhere!

    • When does it stop being way early here?

      • when there is no time to make ground or realistically change and head in the right direction. If you think every team has shown who they are and everythings already sorted…than thats not something we can help you with. what is the record we would need to have an 87-90 win season for rest of the year. until that seems completely hopeless, why give up hope?

        • Is 65-48 possible for the rest of the year? will boston win more than that? will NY? will Baltimore win 60+ more games. Guess thats why they play the games.

          • Jays 65 – 48 from now, no way. This prepostourious predicition cannot be substantiated in any way. The panic button would already be pressed if this were possible. You have a .500 team here pal.

        • If the Jays could win 87 games then Management has mad a horrible miscalculation. 90 wins and its a wild card spot, so 1 really good starter and we would make it. AA didn’t think we are that close, and the Jays won’t play 5 games over .500 the rest of the way to make your call true ( good for you for making a prediction though). So, we are less than 87, how bout another .500 season. No need to panic and no we will never win.

          • what are you fucking talking about? I made no prediction for you to get your ass up. I made a statement. I stated the Jays would need to win 65 games to be a 90 win team, which would put any 90 win team in a potential playoff spot. all teams in the AL east are within 5-6 games. so Baltimore would have to win 60+ and Red Sox would have to win 65+ I actually thought 87 would be a good year for Jays. But I at no point claimed the team was a 90 win team so drop the over reaction bullshit. Even with the team at 85-87 wins which would require 60 more wins.

          • Right you are. A true DJF, declare nothing, pontificate on everything. Yes if the Jays win 90 games they should make the playoffs – rivitting stuff. 87 would be good, but not anything you would predict. Can I quote you on this?

          • “so 1 really good starter and we would make it.”

            Name me this very good starter the Jays should’ve got…

          • Gus, let me first apologize, re-read my post to you and the tone was too strong. I would now like to answer the good pitcher question. It is AA’s job to get the guy, and he has the inside dope on who will come to Toronto and who won’t. ButI won’t hide either, so here you go run wild with these suggestions. Hypothetically, from the start of the 2012 trading season Burhle, Oswalt, Gavin Floyd to name a few

          • Oswalt was only gonna play close to his home, the White Sox weren’t gonna deal Floyd for anything reasonable, Buerhrle would’ve fit your agenda, but the guy was 33 coming into the season on a 4 year deal, and the guy’s FIP and K numbers don’t play well in the AL East.

  42. Using Tango’s quick and dirty double and add .500, the Jays will end up 82-80.

    An unlikely hot streak now would do wonders.

    If the Jays are still hovering around .500 at the beginning of July, I say deal EDH and Johnson if they won’t sign reasonable (to Alex) extensions. It takes the pressure off of deciding a 12 million option if they won’t extend. The bidding for players might be at it’s highest this season because so many teams will be in the hunt with the extra play in game.
    If the team isn’t going to win this year, at least it needs to set itself up to be better later.

  43. Also, Stoeten, your use of brackets in the title is interesting.

  44. One thing I’ve noticed is this blog consistantly preaches apathy. Everything the Jays do or do not do should roll off your shoulders. Passion is not tolerated.

  45. as halladay goes down for 2 mths the phillies will be in play for a trade. they are kicked in the nuts as there manmeat pitcher was their hope. they will decide to part with victorino?somebody start looking for some cheap meat with upside in their organization for AA to tackle into canada.AA is starting to come out of hibernation. i know farrell seems like a very nice gentleman but i am getting tired of his limited use of the english vocabulary or is it his explanation of his thought process.

  46. Stoeten, you gotta stop with these pre-emptive missives about what people can/cannot say on any given topic. You get the slightest whiff of dissent and then bust out with the dire warnings and cutting remarks. You’ve done it time and again. Doing so makes you sound like an apologist, like some knee-jerking, overly-defensive hack.

    Seriously, take a knee.

  47. I can’t believe how stupid people are. NO alex will not offer edwin or kj the qualifying offer. that is grossly overpaying them. edwin is prob worth 5 mil and kj 7 mil. why would you offer kj 12.5 mil when you could just offer him 2/15? this is a guy who couldn’t get a long term deal last year suddenly he’s going to get uggla money?

    alex has shown that if he wants to keep somebody he’ll sign them before free agency. now is too early. wait till the all star break and see where they are.

    I see him offering 3/15 for edwin and 2/15 for kj. anything more and you might as well play them in free agency. neither of these are highly sought after players. however alex can bluff kj’s agent and say hey if you don’t accept our offer we’ll offer the qualifying offer instead. that would devastate his ability to get a longer term deal

  48. Bingo. Apparently everyone’s forgotten how the team was built in the 1980′s and all the traumatic bullpen stuff of those years like expensive ‘Big Name’ Bill Caudill. And then the closer for most of the glory years, Henke, is someone else’s discard. Patience.

  49. I like that, although you still referred to a large portion of Jays fans as morons, you didn’t give ALL Jays fans that moniker and you finally acknowledged that some of us are not Chicken Little idiots. Thanks, Stoeten.

  50. Keep it up Andrew. The Toronto Scum is so utterly worthless. Anyway this team is right where everyone said they would be including, really, AA.

  51. Why does this article need to be written in May? two months have been played! my god!

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