And the Comments Go Nuts

We lost a lot of good minds out there yesterday. Over an injury to Kyle Drabek???

Seriously. Check the comments on the post about it.

I don’t quite know why that was the catalyst, but combined with a sweep at the hands of the Washington Nationals, Brandon Morrow’s injury, abandonment by Vlad Guerrero and the creeping sensation that this is just another season to be swallowed whole by the dark cloud that is the Jays’ Mediocrity Era, a lot of commenters began to come absolutely fucking unhinged.

Granted, those who comment here make up a pretty tiny portion of overall readership (sorry, RADAR), and many who do were fighting the good fight against the tyranny of saying ball-gobblingly absurd things, but given that Wilner has similarly felt the need to address the mood of the room in his latest at Sportsnet, I think it’s safe to say a lot of people are having these same feelings– these same ridiculous feelings.

Thing is, though, quite honestly, it makes my fucking head hurt to even contemplate going back into it more than I already have today– all this past winter’s battles about Rogers, payroll, timelines for contention, laughable horseshit who’s an apologist, saying fuck it and trading Bautista, and…

Good lord, it’s not that anybody is wrong to feel fucking sick of being told to wait until next year again, but it would be nice if a lot of people– before they commence wigging the fuck out, shitting on Rogers, on Anthopoulous, and on people telling them things they don’t like to hear– could take a second and think about all the reasons why  it makes sense to be building the Jays the way they are, and why what we see and hear may not constitute more helpings of the same disgusting, unsatisfying Rogers-brand gruel we’ve been fed for years, not to mention that you might just have to live with some manner of ownership-created profit-based paramaters within which the front office must operate– you know, like every other fucking sports team ever.

It’s disappointing to think that the season may already be slipping away– especially feeling, as most of us do, that there’s truly enough talent on the Jays to at the very least, if they catch some breaks, hang around in the division and force baseball operations to acquire help for them at the trade deadline– but what this post presupposes is, maybe it’s not? And even if it is, maybe it doesn’t mean we’re resigned to eighteen more years of mediocrity?

I’ll let commenter El Duderino explain…

Your internal goal is your goal.

AA has steered clear from picking a year where the Jays will contend. You can make up your own goals but that does not mean it will happen. If the Jays don’t contend in 2013 then that means they won’t contend?

To say that it is not about the minor league system is a ridiculous statement in so many ways. It is about the minor league system. Building a strong system from the ground up with high ceiling talent generally produces good major league players. It goes hand in hand and eventually all that hard work will lead to success in the majors. It took all of the 80′s to build the Jays, it took Jon Daniels 5 years to turn the Rangers into a playoff team. It took the Rays and Nationals years of futility before they became good. And whats the common reason why each of these teams became good – their minor league system had high impact talent.

There is no easy fix here. JPR left the cupboard barren and the team full of really bad contracts. Its taken AA three years to climb out of that rubble. And yes its been 20 years of so called rebuilding but its also been 20 years of bad trades, poor farm systems and general mismanagement. AA deserves a little rope here given how much high impact talent he has added to the major and minor league roster in the last 3 years with 2 more high ceiling talents ready to take over in the next few months (Gose and D’Arnaud). Just to put it in a little perspective – the Jays got Morrow, Rasmus and Escobar for peanuts. The Jays called up a top 10 minor league talent last season (Lawrie) and they now have a top 5 minor league talent in AAA ready to be called up this year. When was the last time that happened?

Yes it sucks right now to lose, but there are lots of good things happening which eventually will turn Toronto into a contending team. I don’t know when but I do know know that the way its being done is the right way of doing it.

Um… right???????????

Comments (322)

  1. At least its better than following the Leafs…

  2. I’m the “top 5 minor league talent in AAA ready to be called up this year”, right?

  3. Hear, hear.

    Let’s all take a step back from the ledge.

    • Stupid fuckin leaf fans and their bandwagon tendencies. The world, and season is not over.

      • Leaf fans, bandwagon tendencies? They can loose 20 in a row and all sports bars in the cities will be packed with people in leaf jerseys on game nights.

      • The season is over… I guarantee. Trade deadline should be interesting.
        Who will AA go after to help this team in 2013, has to be someone with perceived attitude problems. So I’m thinking he tries to trade for Vlad the Impaler, or Travis lunchbox Snider… oh and Adam the cat Lind.

        • Actually there are more than 95 games, and several months, left in the Major League Baseball season, plus the playoffs.
          The Toronto Blue Jays, being a franchise of Major League Baseball, must therefore have more than 95 games at a minimum left on their schedule to be played.
          Therefore, the season is not, in fact, over, and your guarantee has been broken.
          I shall therefore be reporting you to the better business bureau’s troll department.
          Have a Nice Day.

          • Season is over in regards to playoffs for 2012.
            But don’t think I’m just stating this now, because the season has been over since march… for playoffs.

      • Leafs fans are some of the most dedicated ever, far from bandwagon fans. When one of the worst teams in hockey has one of the highest number of fans you can hardly call them bandwagon fans.

  4. Can the term ‘Rogers Apologist’ be banned? There is no such thing. Seriously.

    The people who have liked AA’s approach, are not doing so because they love Rogers or some fucking stupid thing. They just like AA’s approach.

  5. Its? ITS!?

    It’s fucking “it’s”! That was a clown comment, bro. Flat out.

  6. If the plan isn’t to contend in 2013 (and it very well may not be with the necessary MLB improvements that will cost either money or prospects, both of which the Jays have been reluctant to part with in the past), the Jays should probably consider dealing Bautista right now. There’s little point in wasting his prime like this, especially with as much value as he has on that contract.

    If we’re really pushing back that window to when AA’s prospects are ready to come up and contribute, there’s no good reason to keep him here.

    • I don’t buy into your belief that Rogers is never going to spend.

      HOWEVER – lets say you’re right.

      With the prospects coming up (and particularly the log jam were going to see at CF, SS and C), there is absolutely no reason why the Jays couldn’t make additions through trade that would give this team a shot at contending in 2013. Not saying absolutely, but at least a reasonable expectation to. (Don’t get me wrong, it’s pretty early to look toward that, but I’m basing it on the core of the team, and the signed players).

      I don’t believe we’re in the days where it takes 95 wins to sniff the playoffs anymore. If you can win in the high 80s, you’re right there.

      • For the Jays to contend in 2013, they’d need to serious commit themselves to winning and make several additions (1B, LF, SP) to do so. That would be costly in terms of both money and prospects (and the Jays haven’t shown a willingness to accelerate this process at all since AA was hired). They’d also have to probably keep KJ and not downgrade at 2B with Hech, which would also cost quite a bit of money. Do you really see them doing this by next year? Realistically, I can’t.

        • You seem to suggest that because they haven’t used money or prospects to acquire talent yet that those things aren’t most definitely on the table, or won’t be as the prospects get closer to the majors and the club gets closer to being a viable destination for a free agent willing to take a fair deal. I refuse to believe that.

          • I’m not saying that they won’t eventually spend or trade prospects to improve (although I’ve always had questions about the spending part of that considering Rogers’ history of ownership with this team), but it would surprise me if AA accelerated the process suddenly and made all of those improvements this offseason. They obviously need quite a few to make themselves a realistic contender for this division. Some of the best teams in baseball are in it (and the Jays are not one of the best teams in baseball as currently formed).

            If he’s not ready to commit this team to that kind of a change soon, I don’t see any reason a Bautista trade shouldn’t be considered. The guy isn’t going to hit at this level forever.

        • Fuckin right dude! trade me cause this team is gonna fold

    • Have to keep selling tickets though. If you make it public domain that you’ve no interest in fielding a team right now then you lose casual attendance which kills revenue which creeps in to the minds of Rogers accountants when AA then shows up looking for the cash when its needed.

      Despite the hysteria, general public perception and support of the Jays is as high as its been in a decade, unless you get back a legitimate superstar with name recognition you’re going to do damage to that by trading Bautista right now.

      • Very well said, Confido.

      • I see your point (and that’s why it’s difficult to see such a thing happening). But AA is a value maximizer, he’s never made any moves based on ticket sales (nor should he). If maintaining revenues and building public perception was that important to this management group, they likely would have just kept Halladay in 2010 and never bothered with a rebuilding period like this in the first place.

        • I wonder if AA has thought of trading Bautista in this offseason. If the prospects he could acquire would be better for the team in the long run, would he be willing to do it??

          Would the Jays be prepared for the fan backlash?

          To what extent would Beeston or any Rogers executive have Veto power over that decision.

          I recall that Beeston tried to convince Halladay in October or November 2009 to resign with the Jays evn though Hallady had said he would not sign an extension.

        • To be fair to AA, Halladay made it clear that he wanted a trade or he would walk, whereas Bautista seems to love it in TO.

          • Agreed. If Bautista did request a trade after next year, I assme AA would do it quietly unlike Riccardi ho made him available publicly at the all star game.

    • I agree if not this year and not gonna spend this off-season, then now is the time to trade Jose…. go get some good prospects that will play A ball with our other studs…. At some point Jose might put a Roy Halladay…

    • Why do you hate Jose Bautista?

      • Jose Bautista is one of my favourite players in baseball. I’m just unsure what the point of him being on a mediocre team is when you could trade him and bring back value for when you actually intend to contend.

    • I think the basic premise of your argument is flawed. The core element of the team’s development and management philosophy, at least publicly, has been that the team will tell management when they are ready to compete. Which is why all this angst is so ridiculous in the first place. If the team isn’t at a level where AA and the front office brain trust feels that giving up minor league talent for “proven veterans”, as so many of the win now crowd think is prudent, then they won’t do so, as that would merely be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

      Conversely, and more to your point, it is impossible to say (especially with the team showing that they are reasonably close, if not quite there yet, to being contenders) that the “plan” is not to compete in 2013. How do you know that? How does anyone, really?

      This team’s development isn’t about players entering into their decline years, where poor performance means a window closing and opportunity lost, thus necessitating a sell-off of all available assets for players whose development is years away but provide fodder to restock a depleted farm system. The Jays have gone through that phase, albeit at a measured pace.
      The Jays are in a position now where they have a very good talent base moving up through the minors, which will hopefully start producing waves of long-term, high ceiling starters over the next several seasons, and are looking at the major league level to address positional needs slowly but surely in such a way that it neither costs them more than it should nor blocks the development of their younger assets.
      Trading Jose Bautista, a premium talent slugger with a very team friendly contract (13 million a season for what seems, thus far, to be his peak production years), and one whose profile (high walks, power numbers) is not replaceable easily either within their system or on the open market, would seem to be counter productive to this process at this point. The value they would receive in return is likely to be more prospect lottery tickets, none of whom could provide the value over the next couple seasons that Jose is likely to (unless their names were Harper, Trout, Profar, Lindor, Machado etc., and the likelihood of that happening is approximately 0)
      The teams likely to be sellers at the deadline have little to no valuable major league pitching help, and are extremely unlikely to want to take on more salary in order to acquire an older player for their young talent. The teams likely to be buyers are the Jays direct competition for both their own division and the Wild Card slots over the next several years, guaranteeing that Bautista will negatively impact they Jays chances of making the playoffs.
      Thus, the very idea of trading Bautista does not seem to make any sense due to his value, the value you might receive in trade, and the team’s organizational philosophy.

      Finally, there’s the fans perspective. I, as a fan of this team, really and truly don’t give a hairy horseshit whether the team is or is not going to make the playoffs this season. That isn’t to say I would not be thrilled if they did. It would be fucking awesome to go to another parade, and to feel that playoff atmosphere in the ‘Dome again (I got to go to a ’92 ALCS game, and one of the ’93 Series games… god bless parents’ clients’ seats!).

      What I mean is, this is fucking baseball. This is a game that is beautiful to watch, a bare minimum of 54 battles between pitcher and hitter, of balls, strikes, hits and outs. That’s why I watch the games. I watch because I love Toronto Blue Jays BASEBALL. Not the Toronto Blue Jays instant-gratification-make-me-feel-better-about-the-leafs-and-raptors-and-tfc-sucking-so-give-me-pennants-now machine. Fuck.

      So don’t try to tell me in June, with the team a single game under .500, full of good young talent, experiencing its first real adversity of the year, in a season where contention was never more than a possibility (not a likelihood or a probability), that we should sell off the team’s best player. Because, as a fan, I want to watch Jose Bautista hit homeruns, hose young cocky superstars down at third base from right field with his cannon of an arm, argue with umps, and continue to be the presence of veteran leadership on a young team that is still developing.

      Because this whole sports thing is supposed to be about entertainment, not the vicarious fulfillment of life’s frustrations through the actions of millionaires on your TV screen.

      Rant concluded.

      Have a nice day.

      • Ok well here’s a rant for you. I am sick of hearing on this board that I’m not a real baseball fan because I care a lot whether the team wins or not. This is a competitive sport not a fucking ballet dance. If I just wanted to watch beautiful baseball I wouldn’t be watching the Jays at all because they aren’t playing all that beautifully and haven’t since 1993.

        • Well said. The team isn’t that fun to watch these days. It seems that the team gets a solo HR or 2 per game & a few failed rallies.

          I wonder how fans in other major markets would react to not being in 1 pennant race since 1993.

          We are told be patient through multiple rebuilds, philosophies etc..

          Does the lack of media & fan pressure on the organization encourage complacency by the team owners?

          • I think what encourages complacency more than anything is the amount of money that Rogers is making off the team and its cheap TV rights. If you’re making money without having to spend a huge sum of money on winning, why would they change anything from their perspective?

        • I’m not saying you’re not a fan. All I’m fucking saying is that I, personally (as I repeatedly emphasized in my comment) don’t seed this as a zero sum game. Just because the team isn’t going to make the playoffs doesn’t mean we should blow it the fuck up, rebuild. And who said the season’s even done? There are few reasons why the Jays cannot at least be in the conversation about the playoffs in September.
          I also care, a lot, whether the team wins or loses. Ask the dent in my plaster wall beside my couch how I feel about CoCo Cordero’s blown fucking innings.
          All I’m saying is that I want to watch baseball. I didn’t say anything about beautiful baseball. I just said baseball. Entertaining baseball.

      • I didn’t say that the plan wasn’t to contend in 2013. I don’t know what the plan is. What I do know is that this team still needs to make significant improvements on this roster in order to realistically contend next season and making those improvements will either cost money (which Rogers’ has been reluctant to part with over the last 12 years) or prospects (which AA has been reluctant to partt with at this stage of the rebuild).

        If the Jays aren’t ready to make those improvements, it makes little baseball sense to keep Bautista around when you could potentially trade him for value that will help you when the team is actually ready to contend in a few years time. It’s exactly the same principle that led to the Halladay trade. Why wouldn’t it apply again?

      • +1

  7. Im a lil dissapointed with this season but im not ready to shit on the organization or AA. i guess a lot of fans expect more from the team perhaps cuz they see the talent thats there and what they are truly capable of but i mean it hasnt been all that bad imo

  8. Deep breath folks…

  9. I’m not going to jump the ledge because these injuries will be opportunities for Jays to do farm call-ups. Well, for starters we will have to see Chavez and Laffey first, but then it might speed up the Adieny H, callup… I think Drabek’s injury is a small blessing in disguise, the kid still needs a lot of work to improve because he’s still got many mental blocks to overcome (with two outs in an almost clean inning, he can’t close the deal with a final batter and he allows a big-inning to happen).

  10. Umm last time I checked it is all about the major league team. The minor league system is important no doubt but there are no guarantees on any prospects no matter how BA ranks them. Just because you have a strong minor league system doesnt mean all of them will become studs at the MLB level and lead this team to contention. All of them could be great or none could be great. The jays were never bad enough to get the Harpers, strasburgs, longorias and price’s of the world. You can still get studs later in the draft but those 4 guys I mentioned are as close to guaranteed studs as possible. Bottom line, Rogers needs to start spending some fucking money on the MLB team and not the Dunedin Blue jays. The jays make it seem like its a big deal to spend $ on the minor leagues which is complete horseshit. They use it as a selling point because they never did it before AA got in charge.

  11. Again, it’s totally fucking obvious that this franchise is hopeless and causes retinal cancer. Why we’re keeping Bautista is crazy. We should trade everybody for Felix Hernandez and a phone call from Prince Feilder.

  12. Dear Leafs Fans of Summer: Go to your local bookstore, buy The Extra 2%, sit down, shut up, read it, and then apologize for clogging the airwaves with your alarmist nonsense.

  13. Pitching wins championships, so one can track the timeframe to contention by following progress of the current Lansing pitching staff. Syndergaard, Sanchez, Nicolino and DeSclafani together with Wojciechowski, Stilson and Nolin (one level above at Dunedin) will the first talent wave from the minors.
    Even if promoted aggressively, they are not going to reach AAA or MLB before 2014. While Blue Jays might luck out and make it into the playoffs before then, they are not planning on being competitive until 2015. Until then they will look to accumulate as many assets as possible while trading spare parts, like relief pitching.

    • The Jays will be lucky if 2 of those guys become Shaun Marcum.

      • When did Shaun Marcum become the bellweather for good pitching?

        • Isn’t he an appropriate bellweather for good (i.e. slightly above average) pitching? That’s all I was getting at.

      • Really? You base this on what? It is indisputable that winning teams all have strong pitching. AA has focused on bringing in many high ceiling arms to JOIN Morrow and Romero and to use as chips. One to two years from contention.

    • Jays have the starters as it is imo sure another good one would be nice but they have been very good overall this year as the numbers show and they are doing it at the average age of 24 and change. The pen will be better sooner rather than later just from what we have internally.

      I think all we need is another arm to bridge the gap to the arms in A ball. Whether that’s a big name or a decent veteran remains to be seen. Obviously as this week has shown there’s rarely enough depth.

    • In 2006, was there similar hype about the prospects the jays had at that time.?

  14. Drabek’s injury wasn’t the catalyst for the conversation. If you haven’t noticed the comment section takes a life of it’s own,it’s not always about the post content..Please keep the ego in check every once in a while.
    We had a good time, shooting the shit about the Jays.

    And whatdaya mean? There’s more than 5 people who read the comment section?
    I keep forgetting bout that.

    Anyway, your apology is gracefully accepted.( What?It wasn’t really an apology?Well suck me dry and call me Dusty)

    • Agreed–Folks just happened to vent in the comments thread on the most recent one up.

      A Jays-game-less evening, following a series sweep in which their most successful pitcher so far this year hit the DL indefinitely…

      Perfect storm.

      • There are philosophical differences about how a franchise should be run & the best way to build a winning team in the AL East.

        It seems that those fans who do not fully support AA’s plans come under attack.

        At what point during AA’s tenure will it be safe to comment on whether or not his plans are working?

        JP Riccardi was able to stay GM from 2002-2009.

        I am sure there were enough fans & media that supported virtually all of his decisons up until the very end.

        AA’s approach is more long term oriented & it may be work.

        However, if it doesn’t will the next GM do a 180 degree change ?

    • True, like I said yesterday “with Morrow’s injury people thought the season is over”. “But with Drabeks injury the season could just be getting started”.
      Time traveling Jays fan said : ” Yeah I think those two cancel each other out”.
      Let’s hope it does… long season.
      In all seriousness Chavez or Cecil will be fine for 6 weeks, we’re not contending anyway.
      If AA maybe found a LF, 1B and maybe clued in our starting rotation doesn’t look fucking great, maybe we could have been contending.
      There’s always next year… It’s Just a sport… what could have been.

      • I say what could have been because of the way the Yankees and Redsox started of this year. In 2013 not so sure the Yankess, Rays and Redsox hang around with the Jays and Orioles this long.

    • Wilner was talking about all this negative bullshit too, and there was a tonne of it on Twitter, and it was happening after the loss and the Drabek injury. So… tell me again who needs to keep the ego in check?

      • Normally I find the blog entertaining, but the past two days it’s been somewhere between depressing and aggrevating

      • you. seriously man, sometime you can get pretty pompous, looking down on those who dare show disappointment in the team.

        don’t tell me how to think, just blog about the fucking Jays man. ive been noticing the condescending tone much more since the move to the Score

  15. I feel bad for all those stupid and unhinged fans who actually thought the Jays had a chance to compete this year (or next…). If only these simpletons understood the secret to real happiness is to have no expectations for the present and limitless optimism for the future. Its so fucking rock and roll, baby!

  16. Trade bautista, ee, kj, and whoever else is over 25.

    build the team around morrow, lawrie, d’arnaud, gose, etc.

    • And go through losing streaks like you’ve never seen.
      Jays lose 4 of 5 and the world is coming to an end.
      Can’t imagine what would happen playing all the prospects.

    • Trade whoever else is over 25? Okay let’s see who that is:

      Morrow (you fucked up already), Romero (there goes the starting pitching staff) JPA, Rasmus, Davis, Thames (not that I care that much), Francisco (goodbye to OF), and the other 3 you just mentioned. So who does that leave on the current starting roster: Lawrie. Dafuqareyouthinking?

    • Morrow is over 25

  17. I don’t know. Life is tough. Economy sucks. Work too hard for too little money and then you come home and your team sucks shit. People just get unhinged as its acceptable to rant about sports but its not really sports. I mean why would you get so upset about guys you don’t even know making millions playing a game badly?

    Far be it for me to tell people how to feel about sports but between the Jays and the Oilers I’m about as apathetic as you can get about sports.

    • Hear hear!! My 2 faves are the Jays & Oilers. It’s so hard to be a fan these past few years. I do think AA is doing things right. I just at least now add a veteran pitcher via trade like Dempster maybe just to help stabilize the rotation. There are prospects to spare and you don’t want a losing environment. Also there’s also a chance anyway. Stay close, hopefully have a nice hot streak and players come back from injuries rather than suffering them just make the playoffs and at that point anything can happen. Just look at last year

  18. Why are we talking about the minors and rebuilding the “right” way again ! The pitching prospects are years away from the majors and we have zero impact power bats in the system and that is what the big team needs TODAY ! Nevermind regurgitating the same old crap like it’s gospel ! Gose and D’Arnaud aren’t going to be lights out when they get to the majors they too will need time to adjust to major league pitching. There is another year or two gone. Then a couple pitchers might make the bigs and they will need time? In the meantime you need to field a winning team and that means trading assets for major league players to keep butts in the seats. Some prospects will never have as much value as they do when they are just that prospects. So walk the tightrope project who is most likely to make it and trade the others for big leaguers and yes keep replenishing the minors through the draft and trades.

    • Oh and AA knows the timeline of when the jays will compete but he is never going to say it publicly as he also knows fans would freak out to hear 2015-16

      • Really the Jays have no impact bats in the minors.

        I can assure you that D’Arnaud is not an elite talent because of his catching skills.

        And AA has shown that he is not afraid to trade assets to get impact major league talent. That’s how the Jays got Rasmus, and Santos.

        • Santo’s has been just stellar this year… joke injuries happen.

        • I knew someone would jump on that…. I said impact POWER bats and if you think D’Arnaud is coming to the majors and gonna slam home runs in the cleanup spot please send me some of the weed ur smokin

    • Good points. Look at Matt Weiters he was written off as a bust when he came up and struggled his first year, and now he’s one of the best catchers in baseball. But It took almost 2 years for that to happen. d’Arnaud will most likely go through the same thing.

      Still like the approach and strategy by building up the farm, but thinking next year or the year after can be competitive years is highly wishful thinking if no money is spent on supplementing the big league roster with established talent. Not saying that won’t happen, but there will be no competing if it doesn’t.

    • Because the Rays are doing soooo poorly without consistent power bats. What butts in the seats?
      You’re ridiculous.

    • Watch out! It’s OK to be wildly optimistic about prospects , but signing free agents is always bad:))

      Expecting d’arnaud, Gose & everyone else to set the baseball world on fire is also unrealistic.

  19. I’M BALD I’M BALD I’M BALD I’M BALD

  20. Whoopee dee! Toronto has talent labeled “high impact” gumming up every roster in the organization except the one they put on TV nightly. Just wait until all that finely tuned high impact stuff gets to southern Ontario! Maybe they’ll all OPS .709 with good AGGRO like last year’s high impact piece.

    • That may be because you don’t draft 26 year old fully finished prospects you fucking numbnut. It takes time time develop young talent into major league talent. Go back to Russia.

  21. Hey I made the front page. Awesome!

    Thanks for giving my post a shout out Andrew. That really made my day!

  22. Two things.

    1. I doubt the execs at Rogers spend all day sitting around a boardroom discussing baseball. They hire others to do that. There is no corporate baseball conspiracy by the telecom giant. The baseball budget is a comparitively small part of their business. The Jays win, viewer numbers go up, ad rates go up. Pretty simple really. Does the increase in revenue from winning exceed the expense of signing the high-priced FA or not. These execs do not sit around that boardroom lighting their cigars with $1000 bills and giggling about how they screwed the little guy again. Grow up. This is not some kind of Good vs. Evil fairy tale.

    2. The 2 biggest free agents by far this past off season are now on teams that as of today would not be in the post-season. You can not buy a WS. Please stop with this “if only Rogers weren’t such a bunch of greedy cocksuckers then my team would win” bullshit. It’s tiring and it’s too easy. How did STL win last year? How could the Yankees ever lose? Would you rather be a Yankees fan? Once again, grow up. We got swept by a good young Nationals team. Get over it. We win 2 in a row from the vPhils and you guys are all back on the bandwagon. Don’t worry – I’ll save your spot.

      • Without Rogers we may not even have a MLB team. Blaming Rogers for the Jays is like an alcoholic blaming the LCBO.

        • I blame the lcbo for lots of stuff I see on here lol

        • It’s possible the Jays would have left town without Rogers but that doesn’t mean we need to start sucking them off about what great owners they are or how they ‘saved’ baseball in the city. That would just be fucking ridiculous and ignore the previous poor ownership, bad baseball decisions, and the 1994 strike, that nearly killed baseball in Toronto.
          I know we’ve heard all this bullshit that Ted Rogers was not much of a baseball fan but decided to `save` the Jays as some sort of civic gesture. That story really warmed my fucking heart and it might be somewhat true, but there`s no way Rogers buys the Jays if they don`t think they can make any money. Oh, and what do you know? Rogers happens to own a sports cable channel that was desperate for programming to compete against the dominant TSN. What a coincidence. It must also be a coincidence that Rogers was later able to purchase Skydome (which cost $913 million to build) for $25 million.
          Your comment really takes the defense of Rogers to a whole new level. Instead of legitimate complaints about the way Rogers runs the team we should all just be thankful Rogers bought the Jays and have given us the privilege of watching a mediocre team while eating crappy food and overpriced beer.

          • Yes. That’s exactly what I said. Thank you for paying attention. I definitely implied that felatio was the only logical response.

            I said I was tired of the easy blame that is applied to ownership when ever a guy strikes out with men on base or gets caught stealing. I’m tired of hearing how money should always be thrown at every problem and when it’s not that this can only mean that there is some kind of dark conspiracy.

            So blow me.

          • Linz:
            I didn’t give a shit about your first comment but was only replying to your comment that “Without Rogers we may not even have a MLB team”. Good luck defending that.
            I also have no idea who claims there is a ownership conspiracy or even what they fuck you mean by that. Ownership wants to make as much money as possible and that is neither a secret nor against the law.

          • and sometimes the other team is very good and you get to see their stars play too.

          • That sounds about right. It was a profitable to move for Rogers to buy the Jays.

        • I see your point, but I don’t believe there was a real chance the Jays would have left without Rogers.

          Look at Tampa Bay and Oakland now. Or how long it took the Expos to move (and they were ownerless for years, with no games on TV etc).

          There aren’t really any viable, available MLB markets to relocate to since DC got a team.

    • +1 condescension

    • Linz:
      I didn’t give a shit about your first comment but was only replying to your comment that “Without Rogers we may not even have a MLB team”. Good luck defending that.
      I also have no idea who claims there is a ownership conspiracy or even what they fuck you mean by that. Ownership wants to make as much money as possible and that is neither a secret nor against the law.

  23. Life’s a lot easier when you don’t read the comments sections of blogs. Hence why I’ve posted on DJF all of 4-5 times in the ~2 years I’ve been reading this blog.

    • Thanks for that insight. See you again next year.

    • There’s a lot of information from various sources, in the comment section. Even Stoeten gathers the info from here.I’ve seen trades 48 hours before they’ve happened In the comment section.I’ve seen debates that have changed my opnion.Different points of view that expand my knowledge .

      So keep your head in the sand and your mind out of the comment section.

      You life will be easier ( and your life duller)

      • I never said I DON’T read the comments sections, just that I’m a happier person when I don’t read them. I have other places I go for debate and intelligent discourse. Of course there’s a lot of good stuff here, but I have to filter through the moronic drivel to get to it. And for the record, the comments sections at other blogs/news sites/etc are waaaaay worse than DJF. Comments sections on the internet in general are places to avoid.

        But hey, I post one comment, and get two snarky responses. Way to make a brother feel welcomed! I guess I should just go back to enjoying life with my head in the sand.

  24. Jays arent that far off at all. Trading Jose is stupid. he is what, 30? He can still be as good as he is today for 4 seasons. Maybe more. Its too bad Aarron Hill and Lind proved to be one year wonders because if they actually lived up to their 2009 season, this team would be in first place right now.

  25. El Duderino’s comment was fantastic. It was dead on and actually consisted of intelligent thought, which is sorely missing around here.

    I’ve found that my interest in commenting has dropped at about the same rate as the level of discourse. I just can’t fathom anyone thinking that they would know what was going on in the Jays board room, and then spewing it non-stop for comments on end. Why anyone would commit so much time and energy to something they don’t know and can’t prove is beyond me.

    I also don’t know how anyone can shit on AA’s plan for this team considering everything he’s done in a couple seasons. The guy even managed to get rid of one of the worst contracts in baseball history. Could you imagine how bad this team and its future would be if not for his boldness? Hell, just seeing Rasmus on this roster provides me with a lot of solace that we’re fans of a good organization headed in the right direction.

    I actually think one of the biggest contributors to the noise is the lack of “like” function that used to be found in the old comments. The comments today are confusing enough, but I feel like the smart comments get drowned out by the dumb ones, and eventually quantity takes over. At the very least the ability to see people “like” smart comments would renew my faith that people aren’t this dumb.

  26. I don’t give a shit that the Jays are losing.. maybe I do, but I don’t give two shits for sure. I do, however, give a shit that the Jays aren’t even fun to watch while accomplishing said losing.

    Blaming Rogers is fucking stupid.
    Blaming Anthopoulos is fucking stupid.
    Blaming John Farrell — 99% of the time — is fucking stupid.

    Blame the players. In most cases, they’re the one’s not performing up to their standards. Also, don’t blame players for being injured. Injuries happen. Deal with it.

    Seriously. I’ve seen more intelligence out of a cannoli compared to the thread from last night. Tone down the expectations of a young team, and accept that the Jays are a .500 club, and not because of previously mentioned Farrell, Anthopoulos, Rogers tandem, but because of injuries, and most players under-performing, in some cases badly.

  27. AA is God. Do not question, only believe.

    • Were people ths supportive of JP Riccardi 3 years into his mandate?

      Was there a lovefest when JP signed BJ Ryan & Burnett?

      Did fans support the signing of free agents back then?

      This blog did not exist then, but were fans furious that the Jays were taking the quick way to trying to win the division.?

  28. Since El Duderino’s comment was directed at one I made, I’m going to say this:

    I’m well aware that my internal goal is my internal goal.

    That doesn’t take a genius to figure out, and it’s why I qualified the statement. At the same time, I consider my self a pretty rational fan. I’m not someone who wants everyone traded at every loss, wants the hitting coach fired (though 2 on the team wouldn’t be a bad idea) , I don’t think there’s anything necessarily wrong with Rogers, nor do I want Coco DFA’d, etc. etc. etc. In fact, I had no expectations of the team competing this year.

    I’m also completely aware of the time it took for the Rangers to build to where they are now. Frankly, I prefer to use the Rangers as an analogue to the Jays, rather than the Rays & Nats. There’s a lot of similarities: Building a core through drafts, risky moves and trades (Texeira in 207 netted Andrus, Feliz and Harrison), then supplementing with FAs. I tend to view the “start” of the Rangers rebuild with that Texiera trade, personally… you may disagree.

    My point with regards to the minor league system isn’t a ridiculous statement at all. Building a team *isn’t* just about a minor league system. That’s certainly a massive part of it, and (as I said in my post) I think AA has done a fantastic job rebuilding it thus far. However, there’s a big league team to think about too… and that was my point. At some point the primary focus has to shift from one to the other. That doesn’t mean you abandon one for the other, but you have to shift the focus. AA certainly thinks this is the case. He’s made a statement somewhere (can’t find it right now, but it’s out there) that he felt he’d start doing that this year.

    Finally, it’s pretty apparent to any sane human that if they don’t contend in 2013 it doesn’t mean that they won’t in the future. My *personal* view (perhaps saying “personal goal” was a poor choice) is that 2013 is the year they need to start competing, for the reasons I laid out.

    The future is very bright for this team, regardless of this year’s results. I just tend to think that 2013 should be a focus year.

  29. I hate you and guess what my mother she hates you too

  30. When I look at the Jays team this year, I see a way better than .500 team. I have no clue what’s going on.

  31. Farrel preaching patience and Murph advocating the grip and rip philosphy, Who is going to win?http://wap.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/06/14/dwayne_murphy_blue_jays_hitters_approacvh/

  32. Right on the money. You can theoretically do everything right and still not get the result you want. But it’s about process. The Jays are building the team the right way and if they stick with it they will produce a good major league team. Also it will be a good team for a long time, not for a season or two before it disintegrates into irrelevance. It’s beginning to look like it won’t happen this year and it may not even happen next year but it WILL happen. Keep the faith.

  33. I would foul the comments section even more than i’ve done already but there’s good soccer to watch and the US open to watch on the other channel. Doing 3 things is beyond me as chewing gum and walking is hard enough.

  34. I don’t know whether this article is Zen or fascist.

  35. I’ll admit I was pretty depressed last night about the state of the team.

    I really thought we might make the playoffs this year, so to have it snatched away was depressing.

    But even then, this franchise is still on a pretty good path, even if AA’s second straight bullpen rebuild failed. In a season or two all those arms from New Hampshire should be up here dominating–okay, “some” of them–and once that happens we shouldn’t rank 10th in the AL in runs allowed, and all should be well.

    Still, playoffs this year would’ve been awesome. For me some of my earliest memories are watching Joe Carter hit one out. Wouldn’t mind something more recent than that.

    • Maybe that’s the problem. You guys, due to your birth year, started watching the Jays when they were at their peak. No where to go but down. I’ve watched since day one, due to my birth year, so I’ve experienced the sucking more than you. A true fan sticks with it – thick and thin. I love this blog because it’s primarily visited by true fans. Hang in there. GO JAYS!

      • i love it when angry people rate being a fan. True ,loyal, or fucking whatever i am a better fan than you bullshit. the old i have suffered thru worse than you or i have spent more money. fuck off, it is just a fucking game and take the pickle out of your arse

      • Fuck off with your holier than thou bullshit. Fandom is an individual thing. I personally don’t understand the people who think the sky falls with each loss, but what the fuck. Everyone loves the team in a different way, and it’s their prerogative. Who are you to judge. And how the fuck do you know the individual, or even median, ages of the people on this board? How do you know how old I, or RADAR, or Brad Fulmer Fan, or any of the other pseudonymous folks around here are.
        You presume too far, troll, too far indeed.

    • How can you say the bullpen rebuild failed when it’s June, we haven’t seen a healthy Santos, Oliver is being underused, Cordero overused, and Janssen and Frasor have been as solid as expected, or maybe better in the case of Casey. Yes, they’ve been taxed by a few short starts and injuries and had to call up and roll out few shitbags, but all things considered, I’m still taking this bullpen over most others. Results matter, but so much as to outweigh talent, especially not, in my view, when you’re talking about 60 games of a bullpen.

      • I think the bullpen ERA was the highest in the AL as of last week. Most of the failure is due to Cordero.

        Is there a reason why Oliver is used so sparingly? I know he is a lefty specialist, but is Farrell worried about him getting hurt ?

  36. For me, I am just sick of the limbo. I see three options.

    1. I undrstand the goal of building the team from within and developing great young talent, BUT in the meantime for the sake of making money and keeping people interested in the team, sign some guys to help the team compete now so the fans dont get frustrated. Dont trade any of the young kids, just pull out the rogers check book and buy some pieces capable of keeping the team competitive. Some starting pitching and maybe another bat. This way, prospects dont have to be rushed like in other organizations that operate that way. Prospects come up when theyre ready, they go in toes first and nothing much is expected of them from the fans right away.

    2. Trade the big names and valuable players for a massive hoard of prospects and hope to god they pan out.

    3. Trade prospects for big names and hope they pan out

    Thats the way I see it, personally, 1. is the best option and I dont see why The Jays cant do it.

    • I personally see this team in the spot between “crappy” and “great”. They’re good, playing worse than their ability. Injuries won’t help the record. I don’t think they’re far away, given some internal improvement and outside help.

    • Up until the morrow injury and the nats sweep they were three and a half games out of the wild card with a better than average rotation and better than average lineup, projected to get better with prospects coming and holes slowly being filled. There was every reason for AA to be a shopper at the deadline. The injuries and the sweep have likely cost the team.
      But how much? 5-8 morrow starts are a big loss, but potentially could only mean 2 or three fewer wins. Plus the rest could means he’s sharper in September. Who knows? The team is one game under .500, yes. But by the end of the weekend series against the Phillies (the perfect example of the cost of trading away all youth for “proven” talent… and of a manager worse than JF for the fire Farrell crowd.) they could well be back to 2 games over .500, and only a few games out of the WC again.
      It’s a long season, and a crapshoot when the league is so bunched up.

      There is, therefore, a fourth option: Stay the course. Let AA continue with the plan he’s set in motion. Let the prospects evelop and fill the holes on the team organically. Trade some over time for positional help where the deal is advantageous and the system weak. Stop wishing for a contender and trying to build a castle on sand, and slowly build it on a solidly developed foundation of talent at all levels instead.

    • Attendance and TV ratings are up, I’m pretty sure– though don’t quote me on that, they certainly FEEL up– so I’m not sure where the impetus to start pissing money around just “for the sake of making money and keeping people interested” is. Don’t you worry about Rogers’ bottom line, they’ve got that under control.

      Of course, what I suspect you’re really saying is, why don’t they throw us a damn bone and piss some money away for our entertainment? I get the sentiment, but honestly, we saw when Ricciardi’s budget was increased that if Rogers opens the purse strings, they’d better see results, or spending is going to start to be reined in. It may not seem fair to fans, but that’s surely not how shareholders see it, and unfortunately, we’re playing on their turf.

      “Moneyball” didn’t work because they were too behind the curve, and the cheap players the Jays coveted started being sought after by more and more teams, so the only conceivable way, or the best conceivable way, to build a competitive team here is to so so within the framework created by Rogers, which means operating pretty much exactly as Anthopoulos has operated, accumulating high ceiling assets for low cost (relative to baseball’s economy) and eschewing lavish expenditures that not only assume a shit-tonne of risk in their own right– especially on the back-end of deals– but force the club into a pattern of throwing good money after bad if the desired results don’t come.

  37. can someone put a name on one of our so called minor league superstars that will come up and win us 20 games without batting an eye. We have no real superstars coming up some good players is all. No 19 year old Harper in our tickle trunk is there.When a company owns the team and the media easy to blow smoke up ones ass isnt it. who really believes we had a bid on Darvish.

    • Well, shit, I guess the Jays better tank and finish dead last because we have no 19 year old Harper in our tickle trunk, and cause more hysteria.

      Stupid comments are stupid.

    • How many Harpers do you think are out there? Check to see how long it’s been since a 19 year old made an impact in MLB. Fuck me! Also, please fill us in on your inside info regarding the Darvish bid. Do tell.

    • 1. Pitcher wins are an obsolete and ridiculous stat totally dependent on the other players on your team.
      2. Most prospect reports come from American evaluators with no vested interest in the Jays in any way, shape or form.
      3. Bryce Harper is a generational talent. There is one team in baseball with a Bryce Harper. We just saw them for a three game series.
      4. Bryce Harper will never be a 20 game winner. He is a position player.
      5. I personally do believe the Jays made a bid on Yu. No one will ever know what that bid was outside of those involved in the process. All we know for sure is that the Rangers won the process.
      6. Even taking into account the uselessness of pitching wins, there are maybe, at most 2 pitchers in the average year who win 20 games. and they seldom do it without blinking an eye

  38. I still see the 2012 Jays as an 85 win team in the toughest division in baseball. And I still believe that if a few things go right (like simply having a .500 record in one run games instead of going 3-11) they Jays will, at the least, be in a race in September for the 2nd wildcard. And I believe a September race will increase attendance and stretch out the 2013 payroll parameters.

    That said, it’s not the worst thing in the world to be a .500-ish team right now because I think it makes it easier for AA to make long term trades. The fanbase doesn’t really expect the Jays to be buyers at this point. If they were 8 games over .500 (you know, by merely going 7-7 in one run games), there would be pressure for AA to buy. and possibly overexert himself.

    I’m okay with AA “selling” if, for example, he can do something like JPA & EE for Logan Morrison and then call up Mr D’arnaud. That kinda trade might be perceived as a “selling” trade, even though it’s more of a “building” trade and could easily improve the Jays’ 2012 chances as well.

    So, yeah, we can suggest that 2013 is an “internal goal” but this team clearly has enough talent at every spot other than LF, 1B and one spot at the top of the rotation to continually run shitbags out there.

    And, yes, I will be supremely pissed if there isn’t an increase in payroll after attendance and interest have gone up and the team is close enough to contention where money can be the difference. And it doesn’t have to be crazy $200 million contract money either.

    I’m all for a good process and building up the minor league system. But that process shouldn’t supercede winning at the major league level when it is realistic.

    • “I’m all for a good process and building up the minor league system. But that process shouldn’t supercede winning at the major league level when it is realistic.”

      Bingo.

      • Count me amongst those who could handle the lack of spending this past offseason. But I don’t consider it acceptable for this upcoming offseason. There is enough talent in the premium positions to spend a little to fill 1B/LF and the top of the rotation.

        It’s not all or nothing. Personally, I hope the Jays don’t bother with Hamilton, Greinke or Hamels if the prices get insane – which they likely will.

        But guys like Beltran should be targetted again. It sounds like AA made a concerted effort to bring him in, but he didn’t wanna play in TO. That’s fine. I accept that.

        It’s not acceptable, imo, to run replacement level players at 1B and LF for ANOTHER year when our premium position players can compete with contending teams.

        It’s not acceptable to essentially put 3 wildcards behind Romero & Morrow and hope for the best for ANOTHER year.

        This is not on AA. It’s on Rogers. There was a promise that spending would increase with attendance. The fans are doing their part. The ML payroll should be over $90 – $100 milllion next season which should give AA enough to fill these areas without relying on so many wildcards.

  39. Not blaming AA on this, but it seems so far a lot of things have gone wrong this season:
    -Bautista horrible start
    -JPA lack of improvement in plate discipline
    -Escobar .077 ISO (70 wRC+)
    -Lawrie 90 wRC+
    -Lind sucking
    -Thames sucking, Snider not being available to replace
    -Santos injury
    -Cordero shittiness
    -General bullpen shittiness
    -Farrell still in a learning curve

    It’s a pretty nasty storm of bad scenarios. In a way worst-case scenarios (injuries to Romero, Bautista, Lawrie) would have been better because it would make sense to the commentariat. Instead we just have a whole bunch of bad.

    • To be fair AA should have known the following.
      Jp has power… That’s it.
      Thames… sucks
      Lind… sucks
      Cordero in Al East…. Good chance of sucking.
      Drabek, McGowan… Good chance of injury and suckage.
      Alvarez… good chance of power feast… Throws nothing but strikes… wait for your ptich.
      Lawrie, Escobar…. decline
      Rasmus, EE… thank fuck we have these two.

    • Really? Thames sucking and Lind sucking were unforeseeable events? Those two events had a higher probability of occurring than not occurring. It’s not like they just put their best in a position to succeed and they didn’t. Thames should have never been up here. Lind should have never been given the starting job.

      As far as general bullpen shittiness, the signing of a declining cordero was faiirly easy to see as possibly resulting in disaster. His peripherals last year were down right terrible despite what meaningless stats like ERA tell you about a reliever.

      • I didn’t say any of these things were unpredictable. But none of them were inevitable either, and it was not unreasonable to expect better. Had Lind or Thames or Cordero or even Cecil been ok, you would have said it was a nice thing you didn’t expect but at the same time not a total surprise.

        My point is just that there is a storm of the non-best case scenario, predictable or not.

  40. to hell with this, I’m gonna be an oriole fan

  41. Series won: Cleveland, Red Sox, Royals, Mariners, Rangers, Angels, yankees, Mets, O’s, White Sox,

    Series lost: O’s, Rays, O’s, Rays, Rays, Rangers, Red Sox, Braves, Nats

    Series Split: A’s, Twins

    All of the series we’ve lost have been against teams playing very well minus the Red Sox (although I think they were playing better when we faced them). We have won some series against some teams playing well and some piss poor teams. Basically we’re tied for last because we crapped the bed against the O’s & Rays 5 series this year already. It’s almost like you have to beat the teams in your own division consistently to not be in last place. Funny that, hey?

    Aside – anyone else think it’s funny that SN is advertising the upcoming series as the Jays battling the “struggling Phillies”. Ummmm, you guys know that the “struggling” Jays really aren’t playing that much these days, right?

  42. where am I? I feel like I’m in an alternate reality. There is nothing but darkness here. I have dreams of warm summers sun splashed on the Eastern Shore. But I feel this is nothing more than a dream within a dream.

  43. they should have bought out Darvish.

    they look like colossal fools on that score now.

    working the farm is good. but what is the real percentage that those drafts turn into something that is top tier level? you could probably get some stats on that…could you not? its a bit laughable that no one seems to have done that.

    seriously…if teams, and the jays, are being run by such sab metric inclined individuals..shouldn’t they (maybe they have?) go the next mile and run some stats on successful teams, WS teams and find out what percentage of high end prospects develop into talent…and also what the stats say about the tendencies for WS/successful teams to aquire talent through trades or free agency?

    wouldn’t that say something about how you might think about building a successful team?

    i’d like to see the results of such an investigation and how the running of the jays currently matches up to that.

    because…AGAIN…it would appear to me that thus far the running of this team is out-of-sync in terms of the expectation of its prospects to come up at a time that its current bonafide talent is still productive.

    further, that i’d be interested to know whether the team’s expectations of its farm development is playing out or whether the reality is actually that the farm development is under-performing compared to expectations and statistical analysis which might inform what level it needs to be operating at in order to develop into a contending team.

    apologists also keep saying every year that the current team is better than the previous team…but this is actually untrue.

    the 2010 > 2011 > 2012 in terms of results. if i’m wrong, prove it statistically…but I’ll throw out a radically uninformed guess that when looking at all available stats that you’ll find that the 2010 was actually most productive when taking into account the total available measures.

    but the apologists don’t want to look at this…because if they do they’ll be answering the next questions like ‘ uh…so to what extent does Cito Gaston play in the 2010 results’. and if there is one thing that the apologists hate more than their beloved white boy Morrow failing its any sort of value for Cito Gaston…..

    end of story.

    • Darvish has a 4.59 FIP in May and a 4.86 so far in June, so no, they don’t exactly look like colossal fools on that front just yet.

      As for the other shit you’re shovelling, even if Cito did the very most a manager could do for a team, it’d probably be worth only a handful of wins. Managers just don’t have that kind of impact, and what Cito did outside of wins– the handling of young players in particular, made him a negative value skipper. Sorry. But thanks for moronically bringing race into it.

      And the 2010 Jays won 85 games, yes, but that’s about where their talent maxed out (pythagorean wins were 84), and that wasn’t going to be enough. Anthopoulos has actually brought us the promise of increasing talent levels year by year, rather than more shuffling of the deck chairs the way Ricciardi operated in the last years of his era. The results may not again reach 85 wins this year, but the team is better, and the ceiling for the organization as a whole is much, much higher.

      • Stoeten, I can’t believe you passed up on the first sentence: “They Should Have Bought Out Darvish”. Grest opportunity for a Griff-bag-esque “I stopped reading after your first line” response
        How in the fuck can you possibly say that losing a blind bidding process makes them look foolish. They made a bid. Another team made a bid. Said bids were unsealed. The other team’s was higher. End of story.

      • the fuckin manager has the biggest impact.farrell has fucked at least 5 games already and its only 60 games in. sorry if you were born with more than 5 digits per hand. you didnt say. if you are going to point make sure you point right

    • Wilson would have been the better bet and I said so in the winter. He was going to be cheaper than Darvish and had the proven track record.

  44. Are you still beating your wife?

    • Haha that interview and comnent by Stern was awesome.

      • I’d say more idiotic than awesome.

      • Except that Stern is spouting gibberish. The “Are you still beating your wife?” is the classic example of the “begging the question” fallacy by stating in the question that someone did something wrong (i.e. the difference between “have you ever beaten your wife?” vs. Stern’s comment). Rome did not imply that Stern fixed the lottery, he flat out asked him (teehee flat out). Stern got this “begging the question” fallacy mixed up with, well, asking an “insulting” question.

        • Please, Rome is generally a fucking tool. Stern’s question was rhetorical in nature and was used to prove a point at how ludicrous Rome’s repeating of the question was.

          • I agree, Rome is a fucking tool. But it was a very poorly chosen rhetorical question, if that’s what Stern intended. How the heck does asking, “Are you still beating your wife?” prove anything about Rome’s ludicrous question? If he wanted a ludicrous question, he could have asked anything silly, including the more sensible (in one fashion), “Do you beat your wife?” (here it fits more Rome’s tone: “Did you fix it?”) It seems clear to me that Stern essentially just got his logically training mixed up a bit. So, really, not a great comeback.
            Though, yes, yes, yes, Rome is a tool.
            (course my argument all goes out the window if Rome is a known wife-beater. In which case, well played, Stern.)

  45. If we wanted Darvis he wouldve been here.Funny how it was Rodgers media saying we got him we got him. Why wont AA at least have balls to say how close we were. smoke and mirrors face it

    • That is absolute bullshit. Poorly spelled bullshit as well, but that’s besides the point. First off, it was reports from Joel Sherman of the New York Post and Kevin Gray of the Manchester whatever the fuck its called who led the charge on the Jays have Yu bandwagon, not Rogers owned outlets. They were cautiously optimistic, but mostly saying that no one could possibly know. Wilner said that exact phrased so many fucking times I think its burned into my eardrums.
      Secondly, Ther eis no, repeat noi, way, short of spending some ridiculous amount like 100 million on the posting fee, that the Jays could have guaranteed winning the posting process. They made the bid that they felt reflected the value of the player. It was insufficient.
      Get the fuck over it.

      • Paul -

        Agreed on the “we got him” piece about Sherman and Gray…

        But 590 having an hour long Yu Darvish posting special the night of the bid reveal didn’t do anything to temper expectations that they’d bid heavily.

        From a fan’s perspective, why would they put a show on the radio and spend the money to bring in “baseball” people on over time to live broadcast the results if they didn’t think they got it?

        That part still kinda confuses me.

    • AA’s interview with Mccowan in january implied that the Jays bid far less than 50 milion. Perhaps as low as 25-30 million. AA did not want to invest 100 million in one player, with the bid & contract cost.

  46. “working the farm is good. but what is the real percentage that those drafts turn into something that is top tier level?”

    You are actually proving the point of the importance of a strong minor league system. A strong system is laden with toolsy prospects and high end talents for the very fact that a small percentage ultimately have what it takes to play MLB at a high level.

    You need as many tickets in the raffle as possible. Sure, only a small percent will make it…but you offset the low percentage chance with sheer volume.

    • absolutely! but the argument I’m making is that the apologists seem to think that this is the way to go to the exclusion of traditional methods or the methods of other teams which spend in addition to draft/develop.

      and my argument is that at some point jays have to come to grips with the idea that while this might be a great way to field a consistently performing .500 team in the hardest of divisions, it will not likely yield a post-season / WS contending team.

      the output of the development ‘ticket’…meaning ok you got 50 tix to that ‘raffle’ and maybe 1-2 turn into contender-calibre material per year if you’re lucky.,,,well that’s got to match up in a way that you can field a what 25 man roster that can do it?

      so where’s all that other talent going to come from? previous year prospects, yes, but what I want to know is, what is the likelihood / stats / info on rate of decline…rate of replacement in order to at some point field the BEST possible team you can?

      and if you’ve based that ‘idea’ on 2-4 prospects developing into something great…then if your results show 1-2 instead….is your model working?

      so like…did the jays base their intent to contend on Lawrie/Drabek/Snider working out? And of Cecil hanging on longer? On Rasmus coming in blazing? On Romero holding up a bit better?

      its kind of looking to me like they *might* have estimated that more of this was going to happen than it did. In which case their model *may* no longer be appropriate.

      in which case you can only get back on target by moving your timeframe / altering your model.

      maybe they were unrealistic in thinking that so many things would work out. Maybe their anticipated rate of production from the farm is a bit out of whack. Maybe they have to consider that some of the talent needs to be acquired by means other than the farm/etc.

      because right now its looking to me like in the next year or two they could very well lose productive use from Bautista and Romero (not to mention ? marks surrounding EE and Johhson) and as such they will suddenly have a pretty vacant hole in the on-field talent. I don’t think they have enough in the farm to fill this gap.

      • The only major talent the Rangers brought in via free agency has been Adrian Beltre. And they’re fucking terribly mediocre, right?
        Fuck right off.

        • so then that in itself would serve as criticism for the jays supposed prospect development…which again if you compared side by side the prospects on other teams with the jays you would find players coming up and making impacts consistently whereas the jays prospects so far are either inconsistent, not nearly as productive, or plain busts.

          so, if that is the case, then you can’t argue that the jays method would put them anywhere near the results of the rangers, even longer term. you are actually confirming my argument. the rangers don’t NEED to find other ways to supplement their team’s development via prospects.

          but the jays thus far haven’t found / (been lucky enough to find?) their prospects developing into the same calibre of player. so somewhere along the line you have to change the approach otherwise its .500 year after year because you haven’t set up a system that is going to create a situation where enough contention worthy talent is all on the field at the same time.

  47. Look, AA is doing an excellent job. I have no doubt of that. Love the long term plan and it takes time to correct the errors of the past. A lot of time for a lot of errors. But…most of the comments in the Drabek post are about THIS year. Anyone that thinks this year is going to turn out well is deceiving themself. That’s the point people were making. Just look at our current rotation. Morrow is a huge loss to a team with only one other championship level player. JPA and those like him will make for a rough 2012, and 2013, and….. It’s great to look forward but can we at least have a post calling like it is TODAY, or is honesty too difficult?

  48. First and foremost any of us who thought the Jays would waltz into the post season have some jaded views. Yes i am one of the many hopefuls, have always been an optimist when discussing my beloved Jays however the common sense in me says this is not the year for such. I am elated to see our minor system moving forward. Yes it is imperative you have a strong minor league team to achieve success year in and year out. Yes you do not need a strong minor league team to win it all (see Florida Marlins championsip years) however I am not interested in watching eggs go in one basket, try to win, then deal with some more years of futility.

    AA and the Jays are in the cross roads – a reoccuring theme, the June Swoon, if occurs (still half a month left) would make life easier for the brass but if they compete then their hands will be forced. I want to see us win but not at the expense of up and coming talent. Yes some should be traded for solid pieces (hammels, grienke anyone?) however I would almost rather they continue on their existing path – missing the playoffs. This way we can say good-bye to our new found strike out king, and a few others. KJ is solid defensively however if i watch him continue to hack away and k out, i will loose my shit soon enough… there is no way we can compete with our current roster (ie Morrow out for at least a month and Santos still building strength) Our bullpen is better then last year imo however Cordero needs to go, as well we need a stronger arm or two down there. We are lacking a top tier starter, lacking consistency from our catcher, lf, 3b, 1b, 2b, and our bullpen. Too much holes to fill for this year. We all know it, we just don’t want to believe it. Don’t get me wrong, baseball is an incredible sport and some of the weirdes things happen so you never know we may do it, however the chances of such with our existing roster does not look hopefull…. On that note, lets sweep the Phillies and put our minds back in a happy state. We are just under .500 and not all is lost….

  49. As sucking at golf as taught me, it’s all about managing expectations, which apparently a lot of Jays fans have a hard time doing. All you had to do was look at the opening day roster to see that this team would struggle to be over .500

    Starting pitching:

    - Romero was a fairly reliable #1 (not ACE, just #1 on this team) but the high foreheads here (Stoeten & Parkes) predicted a regression based on the peripherals.
    - Morrow had only shown maddening inconsistency – his breakout has been great
    - After that you had Alvarez, who everybody predicted would struggle if he couldn’t figure out how to miss more bats and who hadn’t gone even once through the league yet. Drabek. He is what we thought he was. They were actually planning for McGowan to be in there too – how likely was that to work out? Props to Hutchison for being pretty good for a guy with 32 innings above A ball.

    Bullpen:

    Once again cobbled together with spare parts. There was promise with Santos but so far he’s contributed nothing, and CoCo has been what everybody thought he would be (except John Farrell, apparently).

    Lineup:

    - Nobody should be surprised that Thames is back in the minors – I doubt we will see him again.
    - Rasmus started where he left off. Nice to see him coming around but you couldn’t have counted on that
    - JPA appears to be all about the 3 true outcomes (without the walks). I thought (hoped) he would be better.
    - Adam Lind!
    - KJ overall has been OK
    - Escobar had a crappy April but a better May.
    - Nobocy sould have reasonably suggested Lawrie would maintain the production he had last year. In fact with his poor baserunning he has probably hurt the offense more than helped.
    - Bautista is back to raking and the numbers we expected will be there in the end
    - anybody who predicted EE putting up these numbers to date is lying.

    I just don’t see a contending team with that lineup. I don;t even see the core of a contending team – there are just too many holes. A big-ticket free agent was not going to fix that.
    :

    • right. but see here’s the thing…everyone, apologists included seem hell bent on portraying these arguments about contending THIS year.

      the real concern being raised here is that the blueprint being used isn’t going to bring us anywhere near contending in any of the future years either.

      you are exactly right that the current lineup does not show indications of a contender at all. In fact..the parts that seem to be working are mostly:

      Bautista, Romero, Morrow (i know there’s a bit of luck happening this year), EE.

      And those are SPECIFICALLY some of the pieces that will be LEAVING or DECLINING in the next years. If we are looking at a 3-5 year timeline you could argue that none of those 3 above can be %100 expected to be producing at contender level. Its just too many years in the future. Morrow has the most basis for being a productive element in 3-5 years time…but he will be 30-32…so it becomes less assured.

      in order to argue that this blueprint is working we need to see progress and production from this farm. We’re not seeing it. Apologists will argue for Johnson…but he’s a ? mark. Are you seriously going to point to Lawrie or Rasmus or Escobar as evidence that the team is moving towards contending? Hardly. They’ve been great during stretches and shown talent, but not consistently and not to the level required to contend.

      apologists argue the team is improving. To my eyes its the same 2-4 dudes (Romero/Bautista + any combo of Marcum/Morrow/EE that is producing in a year) carrying the team every year.

      what is the roadmap here? do you seriously see evidence of this??

      just look at the other goddamn teams and tell me that we’re on the same road.

      - Strasburg
      - Harper
      - Orioles Jones
      - McCutchen

      and you could look at histories for other teams:

      -Butler
      -Cano

      and on and on. any other number of prospects on other teams that have come up and in and made an immediate and reliable impact on their teams.

      Have our prospects come in and made a consistent and reliable impact on our team? NO.

      what’s the last prospect to come up and make a consistent impact for the team?

      seriously…what’s the last one?

      Drabek / Snider / Lawrie / Alvarez are all not anywhere close to putting up the kind of contributions of those players listed above.

      so what is the roadmap here…for real?

      • This would be a great comment if you weren’t a complete idiot.

        • i am going to LOVE the explanations you are going to come up with in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 when the team is nowhere in contention again.

          either that or you’ll fold up shop here rather than try to fool yourself into rationalizing some argument as to how the rebuild isn’t over or the team was just ‘unlucky’.

          • The rebuild only began 3 years ago – with no farm system and horrible contracts to jettison. Did you even read the article you mouth-breather?

          • yes I did. and I am still going to argue till i’m blue in the face that assuming you will be in a contending position when you know its likely that Romero and Bautista and Morrow are not going to be at their most productive is unwise. unless you actually think you’ve got that kind of talent in the farm system. which so far, they do not.

            they haven’t had a single guy come up and contribute in the way that many other teams top prospects have.

            a lot of people are drinking the koolaid alright. but the kool aid is that these prospects are really ‘all that’. we will see if we get a mccutchen or a cano or a harper. But its not looking like it so far.

            and they’re willing to risk/waste productive years for bautista/romero/morrow to test it out.

            they should be putting the eggs in all the baskets – 2012 2013 2014 2015. Not some imagined point where suddenly a team of all prospects is going to sweep in and do it all. that’s not going to happen.

    • The Jays refuse to commit to a year in which they will contend. The rhetoric continues—we will know when the time comes. But what if it doesn’t come? Will we receive the same rhetoric? Will every year be about growth and development and potential? And will the next year continually be about taking the next step? But what is the next step? It never seems to be a step into contention.

      Rogers Communications owners for 12 years.

      Results?

      Zero playoffs.

      Promises, excuses, blah, blah, BS.

      • Do you even read this horseshit you write? You’re talking about the slippery slope into an Orwellian Blue Jays future?? For fuck sakes, man. I know it’s scary that they can’t tell you for 100% certain that what they’re doing is going to work, but it’s a damn solid way of going about it if you’d just take the two minutes required to get your brain up to speed on how it’s all supposed to work. Are you Glenn fucking Beck here, with your horseshit fear-mongering questions? It may not work, but for fuck sakes, take a step back, relax, and think about it for a goddamn second without all these grand proclamations that say absolutely tits all.

        • Don’t attack me. I am not the company driving the Blue Jays into the ground.

          Your vitriol should be spent giving shit to Rogers.

          Why are you defending Rogers Communications anyway?

          I am just calling a spade a spade.

  50. I’m wondering what was Stoeten’s motivation for posting this troll? Slow day due to no game? Trying to burn out the unintelligible commentary before the next game threat? Is there some incentive that if you keep the outlandish comments rolling this blog will get more publicity, leading to more viewers, leading to more leverage for Stoeten negotiate his salary/contract with theScore?

    • I assure you, shitting on such a wide segment of my community of readers isn’t viewed as good for business. But thanks for trying, little man.

      • Lol and lol. I disagree with you on some things but I’d never question your motivations. Good article.

      • And here I thought I had figured out the Internet.

        We’re all little compared to you Stoeten, beardwise.

    • I enjoy a heated debate over the future direction of the team.

      It does get out of hand when people resort to personal attacks & racist insults.

      It seems that some of AA’s koolaid drinkers are becoming “unhinged” that not everyone approves of the mediocity produced so far this year.

      The other teams in the AL East have had severe injuries as well , yet they continue to win games.

  51. Yankees went through Braves in Atlanta like shit through a goose. That doesn’t help the psyche when you’re getting a Nats beat down. A bad weak. A bad month. A bad season. A bad decade. It’s no crime to be pissed by poor performance. Prospect porn only provides limited salve.

  52. Don’t tell me to step back from the ledge. I’m a fan. You know, short for “fanatic.” Let me act like Randy Quaid in Major League II. It’s fun.

  53. The Jays are doing about the same as they have been for several years now.

    The difference is they are doing it on significantly less money.

    And they have real prospects coming up instead of… Russ Adams.

    For all the signings they avoided and the lower payroll, they have obtained many years of potentially great service for cheap. Guys like Bautista, Morrow, Santos, Rasmus, Escobar. And the Lawrie’s, Gose’s, D’arnaud’s will be kept around as long as AA wants them.

    Bunch of kids whining for Christmas on Christmas Eve.

    • There’s a lot more money than there was during the majority of JPR’s tenure when you look at the total expenditures between the major league club and what’s spent on the amateur and international players.

    • They’re doing it on significantly less money in the MLB payroll, that is.

  54. so I love the way every year it\’s a different excuse

    2007 see we can\’t compete in the AL east. look at baltimore and tampa see?
    2008 yeah well tampa just got lucky they wont do it again
    2009 yeah well tampa was bad for 10 years see?
    2010 yeah well tampa is going to lose their free agents, the jays have lots of money to keep their star players
    2011 see next year there\’s an extra playoff spot so we have a great chance!
    2012 oh wait we\’re back to rebuilding again, we never said we were contending, baltmore just got lucky

    you see the jays are the envy of the league, they never make the playoffs but hey everyone is jealous of us, we are going to be perennial contenders just trust us.

  55. Well, you can slam people for overreacting, and they probably are, but isn’t that what the point of being a fan is? Would it be exciting if none of us had any immediate hope, or any insight into the teams actions? I have total faith in AA and the organization getting better, but I’m expressing frustration with the current situation, as I think many have the right to do. Venting feels good, and it obviously provided you with something to write about today, and something for Blair and Wilner to discuss. We’re fans, this is what we do.

  56. Would have to strongly disagree with the notion that JPR left the cupboard bare.
    Bautista, Lind, EE, Romero, Jansen, Snider, plus all of the assets that it took to acquire Morrow (League) Rasmus (Zep, Zach Stewart) Escobar (Pastornicky) and Lawrie (Marcum).

    I believe his draft choices were also Marisnick, Hutchison, Cooper, Thames, Arencibia, and Sydergaard was an extra pick in 2010 for the Jays not signing Paxton in 2009.

    So even though AA has made some great moves and acquisitions, you can see this still is very much JPA’s team

    • You’re using Lind to say the cupboard isn’t bare? Shit, and Snider?

      And what’s with “ALL” the assets it toook to acquire Rasmus and Escobar– I kinda remember other guys in those deals too.

  57. It wasn’t that JPR left the cupboard bare but what is there is decidedly major league average to below average for the most part. He did better with trades but the drafting record was pretty horrible. There’s little of nearly a decade’s worth of drafts producing at a high level. The more recent picks like Marisnick and Hutchison were after he changed direction for a third time and started to go back to the traditional methods of lots of scouting and going for higher ceiling guys. To me the bulk of that should be laid at Rogers feet for the amount of money they allocated to JPR early on.

    I don’t buy that JPR should get much credit for guys like Morrow, Rasmus or Esocbar as he wasn’t one that engineered the trades. We don’t know if other prospects or players would have been acceptable to make those trades happen.

    • True enough, his first round picks were pretty dog shit.
      Seemed to have more success in later rounds with guys like Marcum, Lind, Jansen, and Hutchinson.

      I think the moral of the story here is that even JPR’s drafts and none of them were very monumental have produced a significant amount of major league talent and assets. So when you look at the last 3 drafts by AA that were filled with a ridiculous number of highly talented prospects I think everyone just needs to chill the fuck out and give these players a little more time to develop and then it’s going to be a perennial shit storm of awesome young players coming up through the system every year.

      • That has been my point all along. AA is digging out of a pretty massive hole when all things are considered because of the fact that Rogers cheap ways during JPR’s tenure resulted in a lot of badly scouted, lower ceiling, safe and signable guys being drafted. The talent that’s leftover isn’t all that stellar. At least JPR had the benefit of having high ceiling guys left to him by Ash along the lines of Halladay, Wells and Rios.

  58. Wow if you want to hear doom and gloom just listen to McGowan and Morosi at 6pm. My ears are bleeding.

    • I just listened to that interview. Morosi said AA is being to safe & has to make big move this offseason. Mccowan said the clubhouse must be getting tired of losing. There was talk of getting Cole Hamels and other free agents. Damian Cox said the AA honeymoon is over.

  59. Do you really win with prospects?
    Dont they just grow up to be money hungry free aganets who you cant afford anymore so you just end up trading them for more prospects? Isnt that the best way to stay a 500 team?

    • You often win with a core of young, cheap, controllable players, yes.

      Yes, a lot of players end up hitting free agency, but in actuality, a lot of guys hit free agency because their team either didn`t have the foresight to sign them long-term when they had the opportunity to do so at a discount, or they balked at the asking price for a variety of factors– sometimes involving their own budget, but sometimes because of red flags on a player, too.

      The best way to stay a .500 team is to overpay a bunch of declining players and have to fill in roster spots with fringe guys– the way the Phillies are on the verge of being for years. And yes, we`d take a few .500 years in exchange for how good they`ve been in the last few, but hang on, how did the now-mismanaged Phillies even become a good team in the first place?

      Howard, Utley, Rollins and Hamels were homegrown, Victorino was a Rule 5 pickup, Lee was traded for the first time, in exchange for a bunch of prospects. The Thome deal, which came about because Howard, the prospect, needed play, brought Aaron Rowand and Gio Gonzalez– who was moved, with the homegrown Gavin Floyd for Freddy Garcia, which didn’t pan out but speaks to what their system was producing under Pat Gillick– a guy whose patterns AA is following. Ruiz and Burrell were homegrown keys to the ’08 team. Blanton was traded for out of prospect depth– and so was Roy Halladay. And while it’s hard to count the deals made with the Astros, frankly, the Phillies’ acquisitions of Lidge, Oswalt and Pence were built on that too.

      So, yes, prospects are a little bit fucking important.

      • I know, obviously that prospects are important, but just wanted some explanation on how it works when a club invests so much time and patience into a young prospect only to have the prospect demand an outrageous salary and you end up losing them anyways. Seems like it would be a huge let down to follow a potential superstar all through the minors, have him come up to the bigs and do amazing, only to lose him in a couple years. Thats what my concern was. wasnt an argument.

        • See Royals and pirates.
          Royals have changed their ways it seems?

        • You still get them for 6 years before free agency. If they are decent and the club does it’s job you might be able to get a couple more out of them on the cheap. Just have to look around at the extension craze that’s been sweeping baseball the last two years. More and more teams are buying out the first couple of years of free agency, usually at a steep discount. Morrow and Romero are perfect examples of that with the Jays and Longoria is one with the Rays.

  60. The majority of you are reactionary idiots. IT’S JUNE PEOPLE. SERIOUSLY.

  61. I think I would be more concerned if this was 2016 and the Jays were back by 5 games. In 2016 with a more seasoned team, with the talent the Jays have, they should be pushing hard for first or leading by 5 games. I would encourage everyone to be less short sighted, and enjoy the ups and downs. As for the gamblers, well you may want to wait a couple of years. But who knows, maybe this team will surprise us and go on a 20 game winning streak…we will just have to wait and see.

  62. “Get rid of some of the studs in the minors to fill holes in the major roster now”….Dumbest. Comment. EVER. The only teams that should ever consider adopting this philosophy are the teams that are LEGIT contenders – Most of them (aside from the Yankees) built by growing their prospect pool then signing a few key UFA’s or traded their youth AFTER they already had very good Major League rosters that needed one or two key players to become champs – such as an extra starter and a quality bat…not a shit-load of players like the Jays need in order to compete today. AA needs to stay the course. Keep making those trades that bring in 2-3 young guys for an older experienced player in the down-cycle of his career (Wells). Keep looking for amateur talent like Adeiny Hetcheveria (sp?) That doesn’t cost them a roster player. Snuffle-Anthopolous is doing it the right way.

    • Lets not forget a good percentage of the ‘Studs” end up becoming duds in this fantastic game. Sometimes the proven player can give a team that warm fuzzy confident feeling but hey if it takes another 10 years so be it, I’m sure the fans will still be packing the place as always.

  63. hey everyone ,notice the bank of canada sent the warning shot today about the economy going for a 3 times bigger fuck than 2008? how about rogers is playing smart with their money just in case seeing they are already in for 100 million with the jays. sometimes real world factors into financial decisions in sports teams. fans never plan ahead for rainy days. and oshawa 905ers are losing 18000 good paying jobs.think that will impact the jays?fuckin right it will. defaults are gonna triple but the money amount is enormous. expect 5 times worse than 2008 or more.maybe rogers is smart.sick of whiny fuckin fans.enjoy the game for what it is.

    • Fuck Rogers Communications, they can go to hell.

      Revenue CAD$12.42 billion (2011)
      Net income CAD$1.74 billion (2011)
      Total assets CAD$18.32 billion (2011)
      Total equity CAD$3.57 billion (2011)

      • looks like they know how to run a business profitably and long term. i am sure if we hit a depression the profits are gone.school kids and business wont have cellphones when they dont have food.

      • Wow a big business has big numbers. Quick let me find my pitchfork. You guys are so stupid. If Rogers didn’t buy the Jays they probably would be in the US now. Grow up.

  64. Stoeten, just wondering, who would you be more pissed off at in 2016 when the Jays are contending for a wolrd series? The fans that are bitching right now they want a winner or the fans that dont even watch until 2016 when the Jays are winning?
    Because I have a feeling you will have an i told you so attitude if the jays can pull it off in a few years.

    • That’s the beauty of Stoetens arguments. He doesn’t list a year when he thinks they’ll compete, so anytime past 2014 he can claim he was right.
      So in 2021 expect this hippie Stoeten to say; “I told you so”, when the Blue Jays win the world sereis… in his new blog called: “I Don’t drink anymore, but I’m still smarter than you”.

      • Excuse me… world series. I mean nothing by the hippie remark by the way.

      • Wait you mean he can’t predict the future?? What a fucking scandal. STFU. Are you a fan or not? I can’t believe how many people here admit to being complete bandwagoners.

        • Bandwagon fan : Anyone who claims they are a “fan” of a particular sports team, even though they had no prior support for/interest in the team until that team started winning.(Blue Jays haven’t won shit)

          Bandwagon fan: Switches support to whatever team/game/allegiance/belief happens to be successful at the time. (not successful)

          Whether you like it or not, a fan who complains about losing, or a fan who complains about ownership; or even a fan who complains about people complaining… we are all fans.

          Mine was a little joke, but anyone on this site is a Jays fan.
          There’s no bandwagon fans here or anywhere for the Jays. They actually need to start winning for casual fans to start watching them or others to switch teams to become…. bandwagon fans.

          Maybe 30 games in there were bandwagon fans. Now sitting 63 games in they’re gone.
          If anyone is on this site strictly a Blue Jays blog, reading up on the Jays and their losing ways they’re not bandwagon fans.

          A Team Sports Fan is someone who watches their team play and wants them to win. Everyone in here fits under this to me…. even Grouchy.

    • lol well wouldn’t it be the same for the folks if the Jays don’t win anything in the next couple of years? They’ll be jumping up and down saying I told you so for certain.

      • Hopefully we will all just want them to win???
        for people cheering for the same team we really seem to hate each other around here.

        • I agree with you, but what would happen if the Jays started “overpaying for the final pieces of the puzzle” ?

          It seems that the sabr guys would be furious if the Jays acquired a veteran pitcher that had a big contract etc..

          It seems that the only way that the Jays should be allowed to win is if the players acquired in trades are “change of scenery ” candidates.

          Half of this board would be outraged if the Jays won by signing or trading for Prince Fielder in year 5 of his contract or whatever star player a team gave up to the Jays because they wanted to cut payroll or get the Jays prospects.

          Imagine if Fielder hit a world series winning home run in the 2016 World Series. Would the fans be upsetthat his “WAR” was set to decline in 2018??

          IIRC, the Jays had the highest payroll in the MLB in 92 & 93, but with a smaller margin over the Yankees at the time.

          Were Leaf fans outraged in the 1990′s and early 2000′s when the Leafs made the playoffs on a regular basis, but didn’t win a stanley cup.?

          Are Leaf fans happier now in a salary cap league?

          • are fans ever fuckin happy? look at the snapperheads when pujols left. and there are lots of i told you so assholes in the woodwork.geniuses everywhere. and how many teams went for the championship and cleaned house to get it and when the shit showed up to play no fans to be found. if i was an owner i would make sure i was profitable first.. most fans are assholes

          • I think the Jays will overpay on a free agent sooner rather than later. That by itself isn’t that big of a deal in the context of having a good core of young players to add to. It’s probably going to be necessary at first until they prove they can contend on a regular basis.

      • I suppose waiting for 20 years for a team to have a competitive August or September isn’t being patient enough.

        Say what you want about Expos teams, but that team was able to rebuild very quickly in the early 1990′s on a much lower payroll than the Jays ever had.

        The Expos were great at trades & developing young talent. Felipe Alou was a great manager.

        Isn’t it possible that some etams are better at developing prospects than others??

        • fuck off with the expos frenchie.they are gone and they sucked until 94 so go cheer for washington now. are you going to take over this site like last night with your drivel? if so good night.you gave me a headache last night and for a stranger thats hard to get on my nerves.but you did it

          • Bonne Nuit! :)) It’s hilarious that you can’t make any rational arguments but chose to hurl personal insults.

            I am not french by the way.

          • pull your head out of your ass frenchie. this isnt an expos site.i know vlad pumped up your dick but its time you blew your stones and got over it. nobody wants to reminisce over a franchise who left their fans.so fuck off with the expos bullshit

    • oh so its 2016 now is it?

      you guys are fuuuuuucked.

      what a load of horsecrap. its amazing the wool people can pull by extending dates

  65. pretty sure there’s still a hundred games left.

  66. Jeez .
    Is it safe to come back in?
    We have a great conversation,then Stoeten makes a post about comments that has more comments about the previous nights comments.
    I just had to comment on the comments concerning the comment thread.

    I was minding my own business, then BAM all hell broke loose.
    Now the newest post.( late aft snack) comment section is a fucked up ,probably because a comment had to be deleted.

    And about this, all I have to say is “no comment”

  67. is there no bleep on the radar?

    • That’s the problem.
      Too many bleeps.
      Can’t tell if it’s safe to dip my toes back in the water.
      Ahhh, fuck it, I’ll jump back in.
      Maybe tommorrow will bring a post about commenting on the post about comments.

  68. Hmmm Lind lifted from game in Vegas after 2 AB’s. Wonder if he injured his love handle or if he’s on his way back to TO.

  69. So much real information mixed in with misinformation.
    Don’t know whether to stay in this thread or go to the fucked up one.

  70. Attaboy Stoeten. Way to poke the fire. Jays fans need to calm the fuck down. Some great comments. And some rather idiotic fucking stupid rants that make no sense. To no one in particular, I am adding my 2 cents:

    1. AA should not crumble to fan and media pressure and empty the farm system to acquire big-ticket talent. There are too many holes in the lineup and too little pitching depth to remodel the team in mid-season via trades in what will be a huge sellers market. If the right deal comes along that makes the team better, AA will do it. But major overhauls are best done in the off-season;

    2. No reason to rush prospects either. Calling up d’Arnaud (his bat might be ready but I am not convinced that his glove and overall defence is MLB ready). There are super 2 issues to contend with as well. Toronto will get the chance to see plenty of d’Arnaud towards the end of August, should the Jays be flailing in the standings. Otherwise, he will be up when the roster expands in September. Baptism by fire at the MLB level works for some but not so much for catchers. Unless JPA is traded, d’Arnaud is going to have to earn his spurrs in AAA;

    3. The Jays are something like 6-14 in games where the score is decided by 2 runs or less. If they played .500 baseball in those games, they would find themselves 2 games back of the AL East and sniffing a wild card spot. The Jays are not a god awful team that sucks. They just haven’t been good enough and lucky enough to win their fair share of close ball games;

    4. Injuries to Santos and now Morrow are huge blows to the Jays thin pitching staff. How would have thunk that these two key pieces would be spending long stints on the DL. The Jays will need to get lucky with guys like Laffey and Chavez and hope that Cecil can work his way back to the bigs. How long can they pitch effectively before they turn into pumpkins? Hopefully, long enough to allow for Morrow to get healthy;

    To conclude, the Jays were pegged by most to finish 4th, despite the fact that they dominated the Grapefruit League. The fan expectation level was high. Many thought that the Jays could possibly be a force in the AL East in 2012.

    Well, losing 6 of the last 7 and losing Morrow while being swept by the fucking Nationals has caused some fans to flee the ship like little fucking rats. That is baseball.

    You can’t force wins by skating harder and forcing the forecheck or riding the hot goalie. Ultimately, baseball is a game of failure. You have to manage expectations and learn that the game has hot spells and dry spells.

    2013 should be the beginning of what should be a final remodelling of the team’s core that will make or break AA’s reputation and job as GM. While AA has done a fucking awesome job in his short stint, even he would tell you that he expects the team to be good enough to contend by 2013 and 2014, especially if some of the positional prospects are ready. Let’s not blow the whole thing up just because the team is in a losing spell and placed its ace starter on the DL.

    I really don’t give a fuck about the 20 year dry spell. That was then and this is now. If you want your baseball team to be in the playoffs each year, go cheer for the fucking Yankees. The Jays are on the cusp of making a sustainable charge over the next few years. Let’s not lose focus over a fucking losing streak.

    • Well said.
      +1 and all that.
      At last, some sanity.

    • I thought this thread would be finished by now.

      If AA draft picks work, the team will be competitive in 2014.

      However, Bautista will be declining by then.

      If AA fails to produce a playoff team by 2016, then will he take over Beestons job or will he go somewhere else!

      • Because draft picks can never be traded for anything.

        • You can’t trade draft picks in baseball, but you can trade your prospects if the prospects turn out to be good.

          However, the two pictchers in NH who were supposed to ready for next year are not pitching well this year. Mcguire & Jenkins.

      • Bautista will likely be a DH or be at 1B by 2014. His already limited range will wither away for sure, but most power hitters can keep their power tool going well into their late 30′s. In my mind, Bautista should age well given his body type. By 2014, there won’t be room for Bautista in the outfield if some of the outfield prospects pan out.

    • Agree with almost everything you said, but super two is over now… no worries about that.
      I’ve read and heard D’arnaud needs to work on his defense too, however I doubt it’s as bad as JP’s defense. After trade-deadline, whether JP is here or not… call D’arnaud up.

    • Great post Ballsdeep.

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