Danny Knobler of CBS Sports would like you all to kindly go fucking nuts…

This, as you internet-savvy readers will have noticed, comes from a tweet he posted earlier today. (I’d embed it via Twitter as normal, but the code they offer has made one of its many intermittent disappearances at the moment).

Knobler is not wrong about the notion that it would be difficult to find a non-filler arm on the trade market without being able to assume some salary. As for the question of the Jays’ supposed money concerns, while I’m sure certain segments of the fan base will be quick to throw up their hands in triumph at more evidence that Rogers are tight fist-fucking fisted cheapfuck-fists, it’s probably worthwhile to point out that it’s not exactly Chapter One in the Negotiator’s Handbook to come right out and tell clubs that you’ve got a huge blank cheque ready to hand them cash. So…

Update: And, of course, almost as soon as he says that, Knobler tweets that the Jays have acquired Sean O’Sullivan in a trade, in exchange for cash. So, unless they’ve given the Royals their advance scout– HEYO!– I guess the Jays do have some funds at their disposal. Granted, I don’t think that’s the kind of money Knobler was talking about in the first tweet, but… whatever.

O’Sullivan, for the record, has been a shade (ok 8/10th of a win) below replacement level over 193 career innings with the Angels and Royals. He has a 5.02 FIP at Omaha in the PCL this season.

Comments (187)

  1. There’s that.

  2. The Knobler has Knobbled!

  3. Call me crazy but I feel an out of nowhere AA super ninga move brewing

  4. I think what he meant to say is, Jays could get Pitcher X who was signed to a horrible contract by some other team, but are unwilling to the whole crow. And why should they, when it comes to mediocre, overpaid pitching it’s a buyers market.

    • Dude, its gonna be a huge a sellers market. Why should AA pay through the nose for a middling 4th starter with a rich contract?

  5. As they acquire a (bad) pitcher this afternoon for (likely very little) cash.

  6. AA is smart so of course he is going to cry poor.

  7. Why do we still believe ANY trade rumours that we hear about the Alex Anthopolous era Blue Jays?

  8. I’ve certainly bashed Rogers in the past even though it’s more to do with what they’ve done prior to AA taking over, I don’t believe that crap for a minute.

    Just looking at things from a revenue perspective, the Jays numbers have to be better than at any time in the last few years. Gate attendance is up 21% year- to-date over last year and the TV numbers are through the roof. With a lot of cash set to be freed up for next year I think it’s just more US reporter bunk.

    On one hand you’ve got AA saying on PTS that he’s not actively in trade talks with anyone and then the Fox guys saying the Jays are in discussions with the Rockies on Guthrie.
    Doesn’t make much sense.

    Also they were set to offer Beltran a bucket full of cash to play here. Considering he turned that down it’s obvious there’s money floating about. Especially for a situation as critical as this.

    • Listening to that PTS spot, I couldn’t help but feel that AA’s answer was more nuanced than strictly saying we’re not shopping. It sounded more like he was saying that it didn’t make any sense to go out and shop for a guy like Guthrie who has no guaranteed return.

      In fact his comments seemed to be tailored specifically towards the Guthrie rumour, in that he was saying that he saw no value in going out and spending money (which he then, as an aside, noted that they were in fact capable of doing so) on a pitcher whose performance was anything but guaranteed, which is precisely what Guthrie is.

      He explicitly stated that he would make a move to improve the team if there was a guaranteed return available, but that he wasn’t going to be rushed into a panic move. He also said he was engaged in dialogues, but nothing specific at the moment, and that the market was taking time to shake out before the deadline.

      • That’s my point though, it was just the usual everyday business at that stage. The money comment backs up my belief the money is there. Of course, just because it is it doesn’t mean he’s going to spend it for the sake of spending. AA has stated again and again his beliefs on getting value for that money and the Guthrie trade was anything but that.

        Furthermore, I think AA is smart enough to realize that with the holes on this team a reactionary move like acquiring a fringe type starter would be money down the drain at this point in the season. I’m still a firm believer that if he’s going to add anything major at all this season it will be for a guy they have control of or could extend for the future.

        • I firmly agree. And, given the lack of movement in the market right now, which AA himself says probably won’t heat up until mid-July at the earliest, and the standings still being as tightly clenched as my gut every time CoCo comes out with a one run lead to protect, I can’t see the Jays (or about 24 other teams for that matter) making up their minds yet as to their needs or intentions pre-deadline.
          I get the feeling that’s actually what’s driving this whole Guthrie thing: the Jays are more immediately desperate for starting pitching, and the Rockies are one of ffive or maybe 6 teams (including the Cubs, Astros, Royals, Twins and Padres) who are completely and utterly out of it at this point in the season. You could maybe swap out one of the AL Central teams for the Mariners, but really, there’s just not a lot there for the picking, and thus not a lot of rumours for AA to not comment on. Hence we get Guthrie from the Knobler.

          As an aside, I kind of wonder if his source on the not spending thing was taking the quotes of the PTS bit out of context and interpreting them in a way guaranteed to flame some rage among the every online Jays faithful… gotta drive those pageviews!

          • I just don’t believe the Guthrie thing was true and for the spending thing, it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s just BS as I said before it doesn’t make any sense logically. I mean these are the same fucks that said AA had a shit ton of cash to spend in the winter.

  9. Yeah MLBTR aint making any $$ on AA rumours….

  10. O’Sullivan + Pauly = 0 fWAR

  11. My feeling is the club really is not that interested in this year. They are looking for more young trouble upside guys. They still need the pitcher/ first basement/ second basement /and an outfield guy. Kelly will walk as will EE, and my bet is Lind will be at first

  12. i dont think AA cares about this season and is more interested in dealing players(EE, Johnson and the crap in the bullpen) for prospects…

    • Who fills in for KJ?

      • Hechavarria mayhaps? I know people will play the “he’s not ready” card, but, who cares? It’s not like the team itself is.

        • Could Hech do ANYTHING in Vegas that would make people believe he’s improved as a hitter?

          What happens in Vegas probably stays in Vegas…but who knows. It’s not like it would be horrendous to trade KJ, call up Hech and move Escobar to 2B if the Jays are out of it.

          • There was a post just today saying Hech is showing legitimate improvement with the bat. I think Escobar’s performance with the bat this year is what we can expect from Hech.

            Honestly though… if we were gettimg solid production from LF/DH (considering EE as first base) this wouldn’t be that terrible. Especially if D’arnaud is a semi-elite bat.

          • Jays will trade Escobar and KJ at the deadline, to a contending team for a young 2nd baseman that projects well in the next 3 years.

            It was just last year we traded Hill and McDonald. You know for a team that was a little thin up the middle, we seem to have the players other teams want. Can’t win with them, but other teams will give us the talent we need for our next WS win.

          • I don’t think Hech is ready, but I believe he’s not that far off either. I don’t need to see much power out of the SS position, but if he could improve his walk rate closer to 10%, I’d be ecstatic.

          • I’ll withhold judgement on Hech until I hear Gregg Zaun’s opinion.

            Note: This opinion must be formed before Zauny ever sees the guy play.

          • @jesuscristo: they profile completely differently, Hech has more speed, whereas YEscobar has more pop

    • I see EE sticking around. KJ has been shitting the bed since injuring his hammy and not exactly making himself look deserving of a Brandon Philips contract.

      Internally, we have few options for DH/1B/2B if EE and KJ walk.

      • KJ had a great start to the year. But to retain any compensation rights, the Jays have to make a qualifying offer, which could be doubtful.

        Knowing this, opposing GM’s will be trading for a player not likely seen as nothing more than a rental. Hence, his return will not be huge in the current market place.

  13. I hope that funk in the air is what playoffs smell like. Sean mother-fucking O’Sullivan. I’m blown away.

  14. Unless the Jays have a trade brewing for a starting pitcher who could be a core piece going into next year, I think they really have to get at least SOMEONE in the next week or two. I mean, Guthrie, whoever.

    They have nobody for 4 and 5. Not even ‘well we have a guy, but he sucks’. Maybe Chavez and Carreno will prove me wrong, but I really have my doubts they’re up for it.

    • Except… what’s the big deal if they get smoked in a few starts by those guys?

      • 11.1 innings by the pen. Unsustainable.

      • Indeed, they had an outside shot at best coming into this season where they needed everything to fall into place perfectly. If this season tanks in the next week or two, they can always use the rest of it to get a look at certain players and get a better draft pick next season.

        • @night_manimal

          I really disagree with playing for a better draft pick in MLB.

          The draft is just way too hard to predict. And when you factor in signing bonus shenanigans, it becomes even more convoluted.

          I realize 84 wins doesn’t really do you any better than 74 wins. And if they decide the best course of action is trading EE and KJ, then fine.

          But there’s nothing wrong with throwing the 2012 rotation a small bone, just for winning’s sake. As long as it doesn’t come at the expense of the future, why the hell not?

          • With the new CBA it’s just not the draft pick itself but the slot money attached to it. More money = more flexibility in the draft as we saw this year. I’m not advocating tanking the season by any stretch but I’d be hesitant to waste draft picks on mediocre players for a season that had little chance of going anywhere. To me a better draft pick is just a bonus.

            I’d rather have a McDade type kicking around to possibly tip the scales in our favour if we’re trading for a top notch guy than blowing it on the Guthrie types.

      • @Andrew

        Well, I mean… if these guys flat out can’t cut it at the moment as MLB starters, you’ll kill your bullpen. Plus even though any Wildcard hopes are crazy slim, I’m not sure anyone wants to see 40% of your starts be in the ‘hopeless’ variety.

        I’m not saying the Jays have to get Zack Greinke and push right now. I just think they may need another guy or two who they can feel confident will give them 5 or 6 OK innings more often than not.

        Maybe Chavez and Carreno can, and they were just awful outings?

        • I actually think getting a Greinke is the best thing to do right now. The Jays have minimal pitching depth, and the better pitching prospects are still 2-3 years away.

          I understand why they didn’t sign a big bat like Fielder, and I’m glad they didn’t, but getting a talent like that is a must (FA signing > rental trading btw).

          • If we get on a hot streak all the way from now until closing days of July for sure trade for Greinke.
            Anyone know if we`re still on his no trade list. Could be not true, but didn`t he apparently veto a trade to come here?

          • Nooooooo. Sign him as a FA. If the team goes on a hot streak and wins 12 of 15 games, they’re gonna go 3 wins out of the next 15. It’s just how the season’s gone.

          • If he vetod a trade to come here, than I don’t see how we’d sign him as a free agent.

          • The problem is that presumes that Greinke has any interest whatsoever in playing for Toronto, will waive his no trade, and will even consider resigning after the season’s done. Anything less is just going to be a complete waste of time and prospect talent.

        • Would AA risk a clubhouse revolt if he decides to keep putting pitchers into the rotation for the rest of the year.

          He would damage the bullpen that could end up getting hurt.

          The position players would try & swing for the fences at every at bat to try to score runs in every game.??

          Is “Tank Nation” acceptable in June.??

          I would hopethat AA will do something soon to get an innings eater that can save the 8 guys in the bullpen.

          • I should have said “crappy pitchers” instead of pitchers.

            I am not saying that AA needs to get CC Sabathia but if the rosters in AA & AAA are so weak that no one can pitch in the MLB when there are injuries what does that say about AA building the farm system???

            Scott Richmond has MLB experience & was the pitcher of the month in 2009.

            He’s Canadian so he should pitch on Canada Day.!

            Awaiting a rant at me by Stoeten in 3..2..1…

          • Point by point:
            I somehow doubt that a clubhouse revolt is coming, especially as the situation was dictated by injuries, not poor roster construction.

            Yes there is a chance that some bullpen arms are going to get overworked. It could be worse. Look at what the rockies are doing.

            Look at the team as is: they already try to swing for the fences. something tells me that having a degraded starting rotation is not going to turn them all into Mark Reynolds.

            Tank Nation is never acceptable and has no place in Baseball.

            There should only, in general be 7 guys in the bullpen. And define innings eater. A shitbag pitcher with a rubber arm is going to get shelled and pulled in the AL East more often then not, if the team wants to remain competitive. If the team is more concerned with long term development, then why waste prospect currency for the sake of 2 or three extra wins.

            To your next post:
            What that says about AA rebuilding the farm is that it takes more than 2-3 years for young talent, especially the high school kids AA favours, to reach the majors. A better way to analyze the improvement there is to look at annual farm rankings, which have been improving dramatically since he took over.

            Scot Richmond got lucky… and then got bad. And then got hurt. And then ended up where he belongs, as AAAA material. If the Jays staff felt he could pitch in the majors, he’d be there.
            Adam Lind was a Silver Slugger in 2009. Anomalies happen.

            That’s ridiculous. I’m Canadian too. I should pitch on Canada Day.

    • Seanie O’ Sullivan eh, fuck yes. We need depth he’s been pretty terrible wherever he’s gone minors and big leagues; but we need filler in Triple A.

      If this guy makes some starts for his okay(painfull, but okay)
      We’re not doing anything this year and I know the season isn’t over… but It’s over.
      We really were told we wouldn’t be competeing this year so can’t get mad at AA, other then the lack of pitching depth to start the season… but whatever.
      If only we had Hindsight change our future, maybe we would ahve traded for a Garza or whoever if we knew what kind of starts the Yankees and company would have to start the season.

      Next year I don’t think the Yankees and Redsox will be around Blatimore and the us for this long.(Yankees are now back to what’s expected)

      It is interesting though that in Boston this is a terrible season every one’s upset and calling this team shit, booing everybody. But in Toronto we’re all like yes it’s mid june and where still above .500… fuck yes!

      I don’t think a Boston fan gives a shit what the total payroll is they just want to win… Baby!
      So if we ever start contending, and then don’t for one fucking year and the years not over yet(they have a good team that’s totally fucked with injurys and suspect pitching at best) don’t be like them.

      • I don’t remember getting any emails from my Rogers sales rep telling me that he Jays aren’t ready to compete in 2012.:))

        I realize that the rotation has been damaged by injuries. However the lack of anyone on the farm system to help the Jays is shocking.

        How can the number 3 ranked farm system have no pitchers?

        • They’re all too far way(Pitchers) I guess they didnt tell us they wouldn’t compete this year. But AA kind of told us without telling us kind of thing.

          Who knows maybe we make a run at things but not with that rotation and I thought that in december before the injuries.

        • It’s not shocking. This is not the NHL where your prospects are all one level away. It takes years to develop the skillset needed to become a Major League pitcher. Even the best rarely sniff the bigs before their 23 or so, and most of the kids AA preers are high ceiling high schoolers.
          Actually look at the Lansing Lugnuts roster. 3 of their starters were selected to the Midwest League AllStar game. However, as prospect evaluators continually note, a team of the very best of all the teams in the Major’s top prospects would be extremely lucky to win 30-40 games over the course of a season. They don’t have the conditioning, control skill set, mind set, mentality, physical strength etc. to play at the Major League level. to expect AA to magically produce a dozen Major League starters in 2 drafts is ridiculous.
          (and yes, I’m aware that he has had 3 drafts, but you cannot count 2012 in this case as we are talking about help for the majors now.)

        • You have Alverez and Hutch up already, so if we lower the standard to 21 years of age, then we have an abundance of talent ready to go.

          • Hutch and Alvarez are both the exception, not the rule. And Alvarez’s lack of a third viable pitch, most specifically an out pitch, would seem to make the argument that he could definitely have used more time in the minors where winning games was less of a focus than actually developing.

  15. Just don’t get anyone named Wandy. I’m not supporting a team with a guy called Wandy on it.

  16. Can we start to unload some of the excess and bring up the kids? If we are going to suck, I’d rather see TDA, Gose and even Hech.

    • Well, we need to get something in return for EE and KJ at the very least. AA will have to make up his mind shortly and either look towards extending them (both would probably require multiple-year offers) or trading them away at the deadline. A qualifying offer may be an option for EE at the end of the year to retrieve draft pick compensation, but KJ would probably accept.

      Hech may be one of those guys who has more value in AAA than he will in the majors.

      • The Jays would be foolish to let EE go. He is the “middle of order bat” they are looking for now that Adam Lind is in Vegas.

      • holy fuck.. seriously.. I would at least keep EE, he doesn’t seem to do to bad as a dh or a 1b when needed. KJ i can understand, but EE is going to have a 40+ hr run this year.. do you really want to let that go for prospects when you could use a bat like that in the next 2 to 3 years..


        • Well… how much is he going to want? Remember, we’re working under payroll parameters here and don’t give long-term deals.

          • AA should be able to get EE for 3/27 plus options.

            He gave him repeated chances after being dfa’d.

          • who cares how much he wants other than rogers.his bat is very hard to replace. i would still sign kj too because he is a lefty which is so valuable in the east/i dont understand why it is acceptable to just dump good players for no nothing picks. when you have talent here sign them for fuck sakes.i dont remember the championship jays dumping players that played positions.

            • Just Bell, Barfield, Moseby, Whitt, Gruber, Upshaw, Winfield, Maldanado and Fielder between about 88 and 92. Not that many, I guess.

  17. Honestly if the Jays ownership/front office is giving up on the season then I’m probably done for this year too. The team can battle all they want but if the confidence isn’t there from the ownership then this team isn’t going to go far. I’m not saying break the bank and go crazy but at least make an effort.

    What happens if EE signs somewhere else next season. It’s another built in excuse. It gets old after a while.

    • Well they have two choices. 1. Trade prospects for good pitchers who are probably rentals and won’t be here next April. or 2. trade nothing for players who are worth nothing (like O’Sullivan).

      It’s pretty obvious to me that “giving up on the season” and not blowing your prospects on players who will get us from 10 games back to 7 games back is the smartest thing to do if you want to have sustainable success. And remember, that’s what AA is going for here. It isn’t about making the playoffs one time. It’s about consistently being a top team, and you certainly don’t do that by trading away prospects when it’s unnecessary just to appease a couple fans like yourself.

      If you can’t appreciate watching the team for what it is (and you should given that we have one of the best players in baseball, very good young talent in guys like Lawrie and Rasmus, and hopefully eventually Snider and some other good pieces that play above average baseball) then you’re kind of a lost cause. I’d also suggest that being unable to watch a team that’s not going to win a championship makes someone a pretty shitty fan. Just ask the generations of people who support a team outside the top 4 in the EPL and I think they’d agree.

      • The problem is the Jays PROMISE to build a team that they will be a TOP team, but don’t put out a lineup on April 1 every year that is anywhere close to being competitive.

        Barry Davis said today that Morrow won’t be back before September, yet Wilner said yesterday that Morrow will be back in early August. Who’s right?

        Santos was supposed to have a short term injury, and now he has being gone for 2 months.

        No one on this board is advocating trading Hecheverria & Gose for a 1 year rental pitcher.

        However, I find it hard to believe that AA cannot find 1 pitcher n the MLB that is available as a spot starter for 1 month or so.?

        • Interesting on Morrow not being back before September. Is this some new info regarding his injury because everything I’ve read regarding oblique injuries said a month was generally pretty quick. 6 weeks about normal and 2 months for serious problems. Wonder if he was exaggerating.

        • Building takes time.

          Barry Davis is generally not the most reliable source of information, especially about an injury that is considered to have no set rehab period due to its unpredictable nature. Wilner, same thing. And the actual quote from Wilner was that the earliest he could be back was likely early August, or that he wouldn’t be back before early august, or something along those lines.

          Santos’ injury has surprised everyone.

          Some people actually do advocate this on this board.

          I don’t find that hard to believe at all. Starting MLB pitchers do not grow on trees. It’s arguably one of the most difficult things to do in all of sport. Plus, with the standings across the league being as close as they are, it makes what pitchers are available even more expensive to the multiple teams bidding for their services. Read the Common Man’s post over at Getting Blanked from last week. He spells it out quite nicely.

          • Given that Santos was “hidden” for much of spring training, I suspect the Jays knew there was a problem much earlier, and were trying to keep it behind closed doors, while hopefully addressing it before the season started. Hopefully he will be ready for the second half, and if not at least be healthy for next year.

    • We can’t be mortgaging the fucking future for some rentals. Yeah, this season probably isn’t going to see a playoff berth — but we should have known that coming in.

      I can’t see any way the Jays avoid spending SOME money in the FA market this year when it comes to pitching. Yeah, they may shy away from Greinke and Hamels due to asking price, but Colby Lewis, Brandon McCarthy, Anibal Sanchez and Edwin Jackson (Boras client though, I believe?) should be SOMEWHAT affordable.

      I just don’t see how they are going to pull it off. Their in-house pitching depth has AT LEAST two years before we can see results at the major league level.

    • I would still watch the aaa jays, but i still have 50% of my flex pack tickets left after canada day.

      If the Jays want to pack it in on June 15th, then that fine, but don’t expect me to commit to spending $2,000 in advance in 2013 with tickets & concession costs.

      • AAA jays? are you fucking kidding. Granted the starting pitching is pretty fucking silly right now, but hte rest of the lineup is better than decent.

      • hey you pay in advance, you take your chances.no complaining.the jays were competitve until the injury bug and they still have the 3rd highest offense.so the entertainment of watching the jose,EE and colby is still there.

      • Concession costs, are you serious? You know you can take your own food in, right?

  18. I absolutely believe the jays cant take on any *significant* salary because of rogers. Yea, they may have sent cash to to the royals but im sure whatever the amount was it was minimal. Were talking about sean ofucking sullivan. Was he really the best pitcher available or the best pitcher they could afford? I lean towards the latter.

    • If you’re AA and you need a pitcher, and you’re asking teams “who is available?” I really don’t see any problem with adding, “we’d prefer not to take on a contract.” Otherwise, every team is going to be throwing their pitching version of Vernon Wells at you. Considering AA is just looking for anyone who can throw a baseball at this point, there’s no point in letting teams think you’re that desperate that you will take anyone off their hands.

      Also, when was the last time you sat in the Jays boardroom?

    • Cry poor Rogers is destroying any fan goodwill by refusing to get ualified starting pitchers for the rotation.

      I doubt this is the first team to lose 3 starting pitchers in a year.

      • Make it 5 starting pitchers, with Litsch and McGowan. And Rogers isn’t crying poor. Neither is AA. You can;t buy free agent pitching in midsummer. There’s a difference between not having the money to spend, not wanting to spend the money, and wanting to spend the money but having nothing of value to spend it on.

    • If you “lean towards the latter” then you’re a fucking idiot.

  19. For anyone that’s interested fella, Patty’s pub will be holding a wake very soon for Mr. O’sullivan date TBD. (Guniess and Jameson finest Irish whiskey will be availiable)
    “We’ll sing, we’ll dance our finest jig, but most of all lad’s we’ll remember the good… well mostly bad times we had with Patricia O’suillivan’s baby boy“.
    The only song that we’ll play is the night Pat murphy died. “So the same as always really“.

    It will be fun, we`ll act the maggot, drink some beers and whiskey, and biteen down that black stuff until the cows come home.
    So take shelter, bring home a bogger or a floozie lot`s of pickings and remember the good times… cheers to Sean O`sullivan welcome to Canada Boyo.

  20. The Knobler nailed that one exactly…. not easy to do with the Jays, even for something as trivia as this.

  21. The problem here is that its june 22 not july. But yes AA needs to do something. funny thing ismost of us think jays offense is not reaching its limits but yet we 3AL runs scored. Need more consistent output and plausible the likes of pauley and possibly moyer? could give what we need to hold on till end july when morrow back and better trades available for # 2/3 pitcher. hope not lost yet. ricky needs to find himself and be the leader of this rotation more then ever…

    • AA is being exposed as an emperor with no clothes.
      How is it possible that everyone “faps” over the farm system in Vegas & NH, yet no one can itch more than 3 innings for the Jays?

      Is Jo Jo Reyes the savor in waiting in AAA for the Jays? Will AA trade for Jo Jo or Dana Eveland?

      • I think you’re being a bit harsh when all is said and done. Unfortunately 2 of the AA guys they Jays really hoped to count on this year had big regressions out of the blue. You’ve got a couple of AAA starters up here already or injured now. How much depth is one organization really supposed to have?

        I mean we have to remember that for the most part what’s at AA and AAA is the leftovers from JPR’s Rogers driven tenure. We graduated Alvarez and Hutchison from AA already. Traded Molina for Santos so that’s 3 of your better pitching prospects right there. Then we used Drabek and Cecil from AAA. Add to that injuries in Litsch and McGowan and that’s a lot of arms that are in use or hurt.

        Unfortunately, the strength/depth in AA and AAA is with the position players. With pitching it’s obviously at A and Low A and that’s just going to take time to change.

        While I think this season is truly a bust at this point, I still expect AA to get a couple of decent starters for next year whether it’s at the trade deadline or this winter. I feel at this point he really has no choice. I also think it’s a great excuse to get something extra out of Rogers.

        If you want to be exceptionally picky with a strong pinch of hindsight thrown in the only thing you could hang on AA at this point is to say he should have been ultra conservative and signed 2 veteran starters so that all the young guys could have got more seasoning.

        Of course we don’t know if the budget was there for those guys or if those pitchers wanted anything to do with Toronto. That’s the problem when you don’t have an unlimited budget, you’ve got to pick and chose very carefully where your money goes. To me that points more in Rogers direction than anything else but that’s Rogers for you.

        • Ok, I admit to being very frustrated, but isn’t this suppose to be an MLB team??

          AA is a professional dumspter diver.

          How could the Jays pitching inventory be wiped out in 1 week?

          Isn’t Jo Jo in AAA? AA can’t offer cash considerations to get him?

          Was his credit card over the limit?

          Does he want to risk injury to the bullpen from over use?

          • It didn’t disappear in one week though the best part of it did.

            McGowan and Litsch injured before the season. Jenkins and McGuire totally shit the bed. Molina was traded. Then the three injuries. That’s 8 pitchers for a system that two years ago was a joke for minor league quality.

      • Ok, you’re fucking off your rocker dude. No one in their right mind is “fapping” over the 51′s pitching staff, and the Fisher Cats have already given up their best and brightest over the last couple seasons (Hutch, Alvarez) while the talent from the last couple drafts hasn’t reached them. People love he pitching at the low minor levels, not the top. Do some fucking research before you vomit this shit out on to your keyboard.

        • My goodness Paul the venom…you really need to start drinking the good stuff

          • yar… this heat wave and the random can of coors product that was the only thing in the fridge did not agree with the belly earlier… but I stand by my do some research.

        • There is no vomit on the keyboard.

          Jenkins & McGuire were highly touted prospects & now they can’t pitch?

          I don’t expect the A lansing prospects to be pitching for the Jays this year.

          However, is this organization so weak that no one in Vegas or NH can pitch 1 or 2 games for the Jays.

          That’s absurd.

          • I wouldn’t say they were highly touted by any stretch of the imagination. Both were described as back end inning eaters for the most part with McGuire maybe having a #3 type ceiling.

            They were the two safe signable college pitchers and lets face it most of the AAA pitchers were space fillers for the AAA club. Veteran guys like Richmond and Laffey. With 40% of the AA rotation struggling there there’s not as many options as you think. Just have to suck it up and deal with it. Not many teams could endure the same thing as the Jays and still do well. Unfortunately this is kind of the perfect storm in a way. We have a developmental gap for starters and then get creamed by injuries.

          • So the Jays wasted the 20th overall pick in (Jenkins)2009 & the 11th overall pick (McGuire)in 2010 ?

            What is the point of becoming a team built on draft picks if the players they choose aren’t supposed to make the team.

            I also think that AA must have had some input into the 2009 draft.

            The Jays are trying to convince fans that they can build a team based on a superior scouting system that spends extra on the draft in the past to get premium players.

            Yet now we are supposed to say that the draft picks don’t mean anything??

            This is BS

          • they were both considered safe college arms that have stalled at AA. This isn’t overly surprising given the high failure rate of pitching prospects. McGuire is considered the better of the two (both BP and Fangraphs had him listed at 8 behind D’Arnaud, Gose and Marisnick, plus four of the younger arms) but is considered to have a 4th, maybe 3rd starter ceiling at best. His command has regressed some this year, which, due to his lack of velocity and/or plus movement, means that he gets hit more about now(sounds like Cecil from the right side before he dot sent down, or Drabek without motion or velo). As for Jenkins, he’s been victim to the homerun ball (11 in 64 innings) this season, and his command has been off (21 walks in 64 innings, and a 9:7 K/BB ratio) hardcore all season. That being said, these guys were never supposed to be studs, and have stalled. Eventually they may make the majors.

            The important thing to remember is that they represent nothing more than the end of the JPR hangover. AA’s changes to the system took over a year to come to fruition, the Jays were unable to sign most of their upper 2010 draft class, and JPR really left the cupboard bare in terms of high ceiling talent. It will take some time for the talent that AA has put together in the low minors to make it to the MLB. Right now, the wave of young arms is projected to begin breaking sometime around 2014 or so.

  22. Guys what do you really think you can get for Kelly Johnson I’m blown away by guys thinking you will get much. If we could get a good young proven reliever I’d jump at that because thats all your getting with his K-Rate

    • Kelly may look good in a package to a desperate club (Detroit?) so yeah, Jays need a young 2nd baseman to compliment Hech. The bigger problem we have is getting a very uninvolved baseball exec., Nadir Mohamed, to invest in this team. Let’s go Mo!

      • Appologies, I was just informed that rich media tycoons, that have secondary baseball interests, don’t like to be called by a nick name

    • I’ll tell you right now that KJ will bring back something decent from a myriad of teams. Dodgers and Tigers to name a couple.

    • You won’t get much for kelly johnson because of the new CBA.

      No compensation picks unless you offer him 12 million for 1 year in 2013.

      AA won’t do that.

  23. I don’t see the point in selling on KJ or EE. I still think that the Jays have a very good offence, and they will be deadly if they could get a starter to put up some zeros or less crooked numbers on the board.

  24. My guess is that they don’t want to take on 100% of a salary owed to a guy that will be a rental.

  25. KJ’s been weak this month, but very good for a 2B in April and May. I wouldn’t pass judgment so quickly.

  26. So apparently hutch doesn’t have a tear so I assume that means he has to come back in a month. I don’t see why you’d get surgery with no tear.

    And Jojo is pitching well in AAA so yes he is the savior. That 5 era looks quite attractive now doesn’t it?

  27. jojo’s last 10 starts in toronto he pitched 5+ ip 8 times and gave up 4 or less runs 7 times.

    Thats not too bad considering we are like a crack whore desperate for a next fix.

    • well if you can get a pitcher that can keep it to 4 or less for 5+ thats not awesome but its better than a kick in the face with a frozen boot.

    • Remember how Stoeten was like, oh yeah, this team is so much more improved over the 2011 Jays. We’re not going to be giving starts to shit-bags like Jo-Jo Reyes again this year!

      Now we’d KILL to have him back.

      • I like how there is more content and all since he got married to the Score, but he was better before. But a man’s gotta get paid.

    • I never thought I would see the day when the Jays wish that Jo Jo Reyes would be a starter on this team.

      • Jesus, Oakville. Are you still bitching about this? Good Lord: you whine like a spoiled little rich girl. (Must be an Oakville thing.)

        • I have hated Jo Jo Reyes since the day he was signed. Last May I took my daughter to the campout at Rogers Centre. Jojo & Drabek were the designated autograph signers before the game .

          When I saw that , I took my daughter out of the line up.

          I waited till the private autograph session with Casey janssen,Eric Thames, Rajai Davis & Mark Zepchinski.

          I would never traumatize a child into getting an autograph from a pitcher who tied the mlb record on starts without a win.:))

  28. Ya. Part of the problem with AA trying to make a deal right now (I would imagine) is that everyone knows he lost three starting pitchers in a week and that his closest to the big league pitching prospects (McGuire and Jenkins) are getting lit up in AA. He’snot exactly dealing from a position of strength right now, and AA is not one to compromise on what he sees as “value”. He’s probably right to do so (long term). Short term: not so much. I’m not sure how you can fault the man for having three pitchers go down with injury. Finally, I think it’s funny how many people just assume that he could “go out and get Greinke”. I mean, maybe he’ll be available at the deadline. Maybe he won’t. (There’s a lot of talk that the Brewers want to re sign him.) But he ain’t available now. They have to sell tickets there too, you know?

    • Yeah Jenkins and McGuire really hurt the team in a lot of ways this year. Not being able to pitch when most needed is the obvious one, and by pitching poorly, they totally killed whatever trade value they once had imo.

      • Ya. But nothing a good second half couldn’t correct. Prospects are funny. Romero was a “bust” for so long before he put it together. You know? New Hampshire’s not been a good scene for our pitchers this year. (Stilson got lit up today, and even Carreno was WAY better last year.) I dunno.

        • Kind of wonder what’s going on there to be honest. I remember a few weeks back Kevin Gray the reporter who covers them posted an article about the some funky shit going on there in terms of the players attitudes. Who knows. Just bad timing imo. As for Romero he was never really decent at any minor league level except for a 7 games stretch in 2008.

    • In true AA style, all teams are thinking he needs pitching bad. So what great time to get that second baseman we need, yep fake low and hit high. This of course means AA will do nothing. But now that I said that he will do something….maybe

      • He’s only going to “do something” when those things happen to materialize: when something makes sense for the franchise long term. There’s not going to be a whole lot available right now. And anything that IS available is probably REALLY expensive (in terms of prospects). Not too many teams want to be perceived as giving up on the season in early June.

    • I don’t blame AA for having 3 pitchers get hurt in 1 week.

      However, the Jays strategy is to tell the fans that they have a strong farm system & AA has been a genius.

      If the Jays prospects are so valuable, why can’t they be turned into decent starting pitching??

      This team is becoming a Joke.

      • Because to get anyone “decent” you’re going to have to move three of those guys to get him. He’s worked pretty hard to build it up? Why would he possibly undo that work to win a couple of games more? And like I said, I would imagine nobody worthwhile is available right now anyways. Teams have to sell tickets. They’ll hold out until the trade deadline because they have to put asses in seats. How many good players having good seasons get traded in June? Rarely happens.

        • Not necessarily. The Jays traded the best pitcher in baseball with 1 year available on his contract for 3 prospects.

          Do the Jays have to give up 3 “top” prospects to get Matt Garza for 1 more year?

          Garza should be 1 A prospect & Thames or Lind.

          Something doesn’t make sense.

          Either the jays are over”fapping” their own prospects, or other general managers refuse to trade with AA

          • Come on man don’t compare Garza to Halladay. That’s just silly now.

            AA has been saying since winter he wants to target the trade deadline for a move. If that’s his goal he’s obviously going to keep his powder dry until then.

            In light of recent events Garza would be a good move to make now depending on the price. Earlier in the year I was against it because he’s a #3 or #4 starter imo with the cubs asking for an ace price.

          • If the cost of Matt Garza was 1 A prospect and Thames or Lind, the Jays would be all over that like Prince Fielder on a veggie dog.
            However. The Cubs have insisted that Garza’s price is somewhere along the Latos line, or 3 top tier prospects, with at least one close to being major league ready. And they know that, given the number of teams who need pitching right now, they can get their price. I strongly suggest your valuation of players is slightly suspect.

            In terms of the false dichotomy you pose at the end of your comment, there are many, many other options. The most obvious one being that AA has no desire to trade a difficult to acquire commodity, namely young, high ceiling prospects (and yes, multiple prospects, because the cost of any good is relative, not absolute. You don’t measure the cost of Matt Garza at the deadline in 2012 against Roy Halladay in the 2009 offseason. You’re talking trucks and oranges here), for a couple of wins this season, when contention is not exactly a high likelihood. It makes no sense. Even shitbag arms aren’t exactly falling off trees right now. closer to the deadline, after a few more teams have fallen out of the race, there will be more action. Maybe something involving KJ to a contender for a package built around a young arm who can pitch some innings right now, like a Porcello. I have no idea.

            But, tangents aside, there’s no point in freaking out the way you are over this. The team’s starting pitching depth has disappeared over the course of the last three months, and there are no quick fixes.
            Tampa Bay didn’t become a pitching factory overnight, they had to build for years to get to where they are. Same with Texas. We had 8 years of shitty JPR drafts to create a system devoid of any true talent. Any success we had was pure luck, and even then it was low ceiling, marginal talents. So now The system has to be rebuilt from the ground up. And that means extended spring/instructs, short season ball, lo-A, A, High A, AA, and then AAA before the majors. 7 Levels. So try to relax. Rome wasn’t built in a day.

        • @night manimal.

          Garza is not as talented as Halladay.

          I have no problem with AA trying to make a good trade at the deadline.

          However, AA & the media have been telling the fans for the last 2 years that the elite level farm system talent can be used to acquire MLB ready talent.

          Why can;t Gose,hech,D’Arnaud, Snider, Siera, Thames etc be used in a trade to acquire a pitcher?

          I don’t understand why the Jays have to empty the farm system to get Garza when the Phillies did not do that to get Halladay??

          Are the Jays so cheap that they can’t take on a Teahan contract at 5 million plus give up a prospect to get a young MLB ready pitcher?

          • Personally until I see what’s happening at the trade deadline why make a move now when you’re not going to get as good value?

            Considering that d’Arnaud is your likely catcher of the future, I’m not trading him. Same can be said of Gose. Sierra is probably a 4th or 5th outfielder and other teams know that. Snider has limited value right now because of his past.

            The prospects and money are better spent later rather than sooner in this case.

            The season is pretty much a write off at this point in terms of making the playoffs just as it was for the most part at the beginning of the season if you were truly objective about it. Making desperation moves in an attempt to save a season beyond saving is just silly and wasteful.

          • oakville look at phillies farm system…..yes they emptied it

      • AA is a very good GM who is doing things the right way. I’m not saying that because the Jays are “telling me that”. It’s because it’s objectively true. Anyone with half a brain can see that. It takes time, and that time isn’t now. It doesn’t mean it will never happen. But then, I’m a Jays fan. I LIKE this team and this organization. They’re a fun team to watch, and they’ll be more fun to watch going forward. Baseball’s about more that going to the playoffs. It’s about watching things grow too.

        • +1. People remember the 1992-1993 WS champ edition of the Blue Jays but forget that the building process began as early as 1985.

          I would love to see the Jays contend year in and year out but the reality is that the team cannot sustain a long run without a strong farm system and some smart trades. Simply spending silly money of FA talent is not going to bring you anything.

          AA is not wavering from his plan. I am expecting AA to address the immediate need for starting pitching but not at the expense of his overall game plan and certainly not be giving away the farm system.

          There are options other than trading for big-ticket talent that will likely only be here as rental players.

          • Stephen Brunt said on PTS this week that Gillick’s record as a GM could be questioned because he had a chance to put a world series roster in 85,87,89 & 1991.

            He said that Gillick wasn’t able to get the players necessary to put them over the hump.

        • Lovely dialough, you had me believing, but no. No we been watching this growth since 1994, and as fans, the management has given us naadaa. You keep waiting and watching if you want, but its time we see something in the post season. I don’t want to hear the excuses as to why they can’t get it done. My golf clubs await

        • The Jays won;t be fun to watch is they continue to put out cannon fodder 3 nights a week.

          The way it’s going, even if Romero pitches OK, say 3 runs in 7 innings, the bullpen will be so tired from helping out the cannon fodder that they will blow the leads in the 8th or 9th inning.

      • “I don’t blame AA for having 3 pitchers get hurt in 1 week.

        However, the Jays strategy is to tell the fans that they have a strong farm system & AA has been a genius.”

        Please show examples of the Jays strategy being them saying they have a strong farm system and that AA is a genius. Or are you referring to guys like Law and Goldstein’s analysis of the Jays’ system, and the media’s portrayal of AA? Pretty sure that’s it.

        “If the Jays prospects are so valuable, why can’t they be turned into decent starting pitching??”

        I’m sure they could. Seems most likely to me that AA hasn’t felt he’s had an offer that was beneficial enough to make yet. Unless you feel that the rankings we’ve had of the Jays minor leaguers are considered bullshit by rival GMs.

        “This team is becoming a Joke.”

        Based on what? The .500 record? I mean, be rational about what AA started with in 2010, and look at what we have now in 2012. The MLB squad may not have more wins, but the system as a whole has gone for dogshit to one of the top in MLB.

    • The problem is AA’s definition of value is not accepted by many of the other teams in MLB.

      If Cincinatti, San Diego LAA Angels can have access to massive broadcast revenue in upcoming years, there is no way that AA’s value assessment will be accepted by other teams.

      The free market will overwhelm AA.

      It’s like a home buyer trying to buy a home in Vancouver for 400K. It may be “value in a traditional sense” based on income levels & interest rates , but no one will sell you a home in Vancouver for 400K.

      Rogers will have to allocate the FMV of broadcast rights to the Jays to be used on payroll.

      • “The problem is AA’s definition of value is not accepted by many of the other teams in MLB.

        If Cincinatti, San Diego LAA Angels can have access to massive broadcast revenue in upcoming years, there is no way that AA’s value assessment will be accepted by other teams.”

        Arrrghhh! What does this even mean?

        You’re saying that AA’s idea of value (getting a good player for a reasonable salary) isn’t teams like Cincinnati, SD (??) and LAA’s version of value? What is their version of value? It isn’t good play for reasonable pay??

        • The new broadcast revenue deals given to mid market teams will allow teams like the reds and padres to spend more money than Rogers which only give the jays a limited amount for broadcast rights

  29. Most GM’s aren’t very aggressive. Almost every team has the same philosophy of building the team from within.
    Most GM’s are conservative because trades are one the main ways to judge a GM by.
    Trading from the AL East is tougher because of the level of competition. Other divisions have players with “inflated” stats so GM’s aren’t going to give a discount to an AL East team because that player might not adjust well.
    This is why the Jays need to focus on drafting upside more than anything else.

  30. Scott Richmond says, “fuck David Pauley, I’m throwing a god damn no-hitter through 6 innings in Vegas of all places. See AA I can still fucking bring it.”

  31. The thing about waiting is you can only have a home run hitter like Jose for so long. Sooner or later he’s going to decline and we will have good pitching prospects but the hitters will be lacking. Hopefully we can trade those pitchers for bats but who would give up a 30-40 HR prospect? Almost no one.

    So fuking frustrating that things can’t line up. Don’t even get me started on the strength of the division. That’s going to be even harder to compete against. Damn.

    • But Bautista isn`t just going to fall off a cliff at 32. We obviously don`t know what his decline will look like, but lots of guys are capable of producing at really high levels throughout their 30s, even if it isn`t quite where they were at their very high peak. Ortiz, Konerko and Beltran jump immediately to mind among this year`s best hitters.

      And it`s funny that you talk about 30-40 HR prospects rarely getting traded in a comment centred around Bautista. Among last year`s 30+ HR guys I`m seeing JJ Hardy, Miguel Cabrera, Paul Konerko, Michael Morse, Adrian Beltre, Dan Uggla, Mark Reynolds, Mark Teixeira, Curtis Granderson and Jose Bautista, all of whom have been traded at some point. That`s ten of the 23 .

      • Oh wait who was the dumb fuck who said to trade bautista 2 years ago before he declines? Oh wait that was you. And now you are the genius explaining why he won’t decline. So why don’t you just shut the fuck up already you moron.

        • Too far dude. No offense man but you should be banned for this shit you’ve just written, way to fucking far.

          It’s your user name I have fucking problem with… what the fuck goes through your head to post that honestly fucking sickening.

          The shit you wrote is fucking atrocious, your the fucking moron.


      • @Andrew

        I completely agree. Sluggers generally age OK into their mid to late 30s. We’ve got Jose for 4 or 5 seasons after this one on a great deal, lets make the most of it.

        With the 2nd WC, and seemingly more parity now, there’s no reason to give up on a bat like that with a contract like that.

        • Ummmm just to rain on everyone’s parade, but I really don’t think you can put any stock in to aging curves of “sluggers” over the past oh 20 years and apply it to Bautista. For some meaningful % of them, they had access to a fountain of youth which is much less prevalent now.

      • So by that logic Prince Fielder would have been a great pickup.

  32. The team should be looking to bridge to the next group of talent. Dropping some cash on 2-3 year (tier 2) free agent deals (above market value) should really be no big deal if Rogers will fork over the cash. There is no reason to not try to be in the pennant race with the extra playoff spot. You have to build the fanbase at some point to get the ball rolling.

  33. What I mean is that ownership needs to be balls out and say here is money- get us a pennant race.

  34. and all the alarm bells are going off everywhere.the warnings are in print. the mortgage rules are being changed fast. we are heading into a depression that will be 5 times worse than 08.and the stock markets collapsed today. and everyone wants the jays to fork out mega millions to please them. the rogers organization will have been wary on spending due to the economy being fragile especially when we get fucked from overseas. but the best part today was the BOC carney saying our economy has been fueled on borrowed money and it is not sustainable. we are now fucked and so is the jays spending habit

  35. I know no one wants to wait to win, but if the two options open are becoming the Phillies or becoming the Rays, i choose the Rays. Every damn time. Besides, I’d rather see the team wait til the offseason and buy rotation help when it costs money, not prospects. My cable bill tells me money is easier for Rogers to acquire than quality young talent. There is really no one down on the farm who is expendable based on a “core” piece above them at this point. The prospects are more valuable to the organization in that regard. it may take a year or three for it to come together, but I, personally, prefer the Jays current approach of building a team from within to the JPR era of overpaying for free agent castoffs and hoping that they might be better than the last batch of free agent cast offs. At least there’s hope for the future, and shit to debate about in the the present.
    If you want instant gratification and a buy buy buy money is no object lifestyle, well fuck, they sell Yankees and Red Sox caps down at the corner store.

    • Don’t you just love the people that think that all we have to do is wait long enough and enough of our prospects will turn us into a contender? Teams not doing well now? Just wait… and wait… and wait.

      Waiting for cheap labour to become good is not a guarantee of success. Not every team becomes the Rays. More teams are successful by filling holes with major league talent rather than waiting for every need to be filled from the minors.

      • You’re half right. You have to do both: fill your spots internally and externally. BUt that’s a discussion for the off season. There’s not a whole lot that can be done about it right now, and it certainly has nothing to do with Rogers at this point. It’s not a money issue. It’s a nothing worthwhile is available issue. Matt Garza’s a solid three. But I wouldn’t give Gose, Syndergaard and Marisnick to get him for a year and a half (with no guarantee of an extension). Would you?

        • I’m not saying it should happen now. It should have happened in the off season. Relying on three prospects in your rotation is crazy IMO. Was then, still is now.

  36. Ok..umm..guys..remember me? Yeah. Im back here in the PCL and Ive been tearing it up all weak, homered a few times…opsing over 1000.

    think maybe its time to bring me up or should I just stay down here till i get another bullshit injury from playing on a field that is harder than the Old Veteran Stadium turf?

  37. anyone who thinks this club isn’t making money hand over fist has their head completely in the sand. the jays have the 3rd largest TV viewership in mlb (the ‘local’ TV market is the entire country)… clubs with much smaller TV audiences have signed long term rights deals that would cover the jays entire payroll.

    i can understand the argument that this isn’t the right time to spend or whatever… but make no mistake rogers is making piles of dough off the blue jays.

    • I am in no saying Rogers isn’t making a metric ass ton of money off the jays, I have read though that the amount advertisers pay per Canadian viewer is much less than what they pay for an American viewer. So we can’t just say that the rights for the blues jays games are worth 5 times more than Cinnci becasue the viewership is 5 times as high or whatever the numbers are

      • The money conversation is one for the off-season. It’s got NOTHING to do with the current pitching situation.

      • I’m wondering about that. I’ve heard conflicting things re advertising money and Canadian/American viewership. The Jays do have a gigantic TV audience.

        I don’t know. Maybe Canadians only count for three-fifths of a person.

      • Rogers isn’t interested in baseball, they are interested in there core compentcy which is television. Rogers isn’t paying the Jays what they should for the TV rights. Rogers does get 3 to 4 hours of Canadian content, stiffs the Jays, charges viewers a small fortune for there cable, and advertisers get a cheap ride on our backs.

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