What the shit. Jays get J.A. Happ (???), Brandon Lyon, and David Carpenter. Travis Snider has been recalled. What the fuck.

Where to start with this trade? The Jays sell low on Wojciechowki, currently repeating High-A with the Dunedin Blue Jays. Carlos Perez had a fair share of promise attached to his name but now he too is gone.

The Jays get immediate bullpen help and a back of the rotation arm to help the team get through the season, I guess. This is a massive pile of nothing going for a few pieces a long, long way from the big leagues and two end of the bench roster fillers. Weird. So weird.

Asher Wojciechowski is the name sure to make hardcore Blue Jays fan wince. The big right-hander came into this season as the Jays number 10 ranked prospect according to Baseball America, down from number six in 2011. Some of the bloom returned to the rose in recent weeks as Asher really started putting together some much better starts. According to Marc Hulet of Fangraphs, many of Woj’s struggles linked directly to an attempt by the club to tinker with his mechanics.

Carlos Perez was also repeating a level, putting up strong numbers in his second go-round with the Lansing Lugnuts of the Midwest League. Considering the amount of talent ahead of him on the depth chart, it is a little difficult to see where he fit into the Jays plans. Then again, catchers fall apart faster than Ikea furniture and are only good for one move.

Francisco Cordero and Ben Francisco are worlds apart in terms of their practical value but not a single Blue Jays fan will shed a single tear over their respective departures. Fare thy well, gents. May we all forget your names by the end of next week.

On the Jays side, they get a competent reliever in the final year of his contract. Thanks to the new CBA, he won’t bring the comp pick that AA used to covet so dearly.

J.A. Happ is bad. At least he used to be, his numbers this season aren’t awful and he remains under control until 2015. He is the NL Central version of Ricky Romero Brett Cecil, a fly ball lefty who gives up a few too many home runs while missing too few bats.

Bear with me as I talk myself into Happ, but he looks like a different guy this year. Well, his Fangraphs page looks different. Way more ground balls, way more swinging strikes. Sure, the whiffs are still below average but he is headed in a somewhat positive direction. More than we can say about some of the competing arms in the Blue Jays current rotation mix.

David Carpenter is a live arm with poor control. He could be the next Josh Roenicke or he could be the next…Brandon Lyon? Carpenter is a Luhnow favorite so this caused some pain in the Houston FO. Misses bats and strike zones in equal measure. Guys like this always find jobs. Always. John Lott reports this guy finds his job to be in Vegas for now.

This seems like a gamble by AA to improve the team in the short term, banking on Woj, Perez and the rest never amounting to much. Astros new GM Jeffrey Luhnow is the former scouting director for the Cardinals and a man with whom one does not trifle.

The Travis Snider angle is a whole ‘nother ballgame. Is he now the starting left fielder? Are Gose and Davis a platoon? What does this have to do with Brett Lawrie? I JUST WANT SOME DAMN ANSWERS. SOMEBODY WAKE STOETEN, I DON’T HAVE IT IN ME.


Image via Bob Levey/Getty.

Comments (566)

  1. What the fuck, indeed.

  2. someone tell me how to feel

  3. Alex on the move.

    • It’s like AA saw the “AA’s not the ninja we all think he is…” DJF post from yesterday and said “Oh yeah? How’s this for some fucking ninja shit?” (Makes unpredictable 10-player trade, escapes in puff of smoke)


      • Serious ninja stuff, but 2 years from now it’ll seem obvious because somebody in the middle of the nowhere Texas/Internet will have tweeted that he saw a guy with a bluejay hat in Dallas July 18th and 19th, 2012.

        • I would rather this trade remained so ninja it never occurred in the first place.

          • How is exchanging a bunch of garbage for a slightly different bunch garbage ninja? Jay’s picked up some arms that won’t fall off for some shit bags that probably won’t fall over. Big deal.

  4. They misspelled Wandy Rodriguez?

  5. So… Who had 10 player trade with the Astros during last nights twitter hoopla?

  6. Even though these are all B-/C+ prospects, I would have thought they could have cashed them in for a bit more than 2 years of control of JA Happ.

  7. well this is a shitty looking deal..

  8. I don’t think I’ve ever been so bored by a 10 player trade.

  9. Not exactly can’t miss prospects given up but still more then I expected AA to give up for stop gaps. Unless I’m missing something. (which is definitely possible)

  10. Toronto, we have a problem

  11. So who’s our high leverage specialist now?

  12. Woooo sniders back!

  13. basically good prospect Asher W… and a whole lot of shit for a whole lot of shit…

    • What about Musgrove? Wouldn’t call him shit.

    • Perez is still a pretty good C prospect, except for his shitty 2011, his bb/k rate has been close to even. Pretty good for a 22 year old latin catcher.

      • What does being latin have to do with anything?
        Is it cause he’s fiery?

        • Or misunderstood?

        • It’s because he didn’t grow up in the American baseball system. It’s likely that he has played high level ball since his late teens, unlike American kids who start playing when they can walk

          Same reason Hech is still still “very young” even though he is 23.

          • I’m pretty sure you just made all of that up.

          • I’m pretty sure children in Latin America play baseball all the time. Either that or litterally everything I’ve ever seen or read about baseball was a lie.

          • Your right and wrong at the same time somehow….

            The majority of kids in developing countries play ball, but in beat up old fields with old mits if any and home made balls.

            HOWEVER, the elite prospects are usually moved into the adult semi-pro leagues at a young age so they could theoretically develop quicker.

  14. 2 interesting young arms, an interesting young catcher and more for 1 interesting bullpen arm and a back of the rotation starter for the next two years.

    something seem doesn’t add up to me.

    • Don’t get too caught up in prospect porn. There’s only one big league player in this deal who’ll be with either of these clubs next year, and that’s Happ.

      • Happ is a #5 starter at best in the ALE, nothing to be proud of if he is on the ML roster next year

      • It’s not the prospect porn. I just think these are not the kind of targets the jays should be pursuing. Bullpen depth and back of the rotation help.

      • Ja Happ could be a non tender candidate. Could make 5 million next year for a number 5 starter who’s no better than who we’ve been running out there.

        Propsects aren’t much becuase the’v enever been in the league but a number 10 in your system package with your second rated Catcher I thought might get you alittle more unless the Astros need three and one named later to take on Cordero.

        Why would the Astros take on Cordero and his contract unless the Blue Jays do need anyone to take money back which was reported earlier from Heyma. Even with increase attendance and Tv ratings we still are pretending to be poor jesus fuck.(where’s the rogers is broke replys)

        Unless they plan to make another move and need room were they take on money. You have to admitt is this move really anything, Happ might not even make this rotation next year aussming they keep him.

        Just don’t go thinking Ja Happ will be anything in the Al Beast.

    • Read this as interesting young bullpen catcher. Somehow I think that about sums up this deal, totaly irrelevant

      • Reading these comments and seeing a lot of ignorance. JA Happ is a decent pitcher. The Jays got better with this trade people just appearently cant be bothered to care if its not for superstars. Trade makes the Jays better this year and next year. Also, if you “dont see the point” that might explain why you arent a MLB GM.

        Plus Happ is better than it would seem. He strikes out almost a batter per inning and consistantly seems to pitch into the 6/7th. If he didnt play for the fucking Astros he would have better stats.

        • Happ was initially supposed to be part of the Halladay trade (and was considered an up and coming young pitcher with the Phillies).
          To position him as #5 on our staff – with the poor performances we’ve suffered through this year is not just ignorant – it’s wilfully misleading. This guy will pitch an average 6-7 innings into games and save us young arms…

  15. Even though this trade is underwhelming, I think you have to give AA his ninja belt back.

  16. not the worst trade of the day jonathan sanchez to colorado is hilarious

    • That deal makes sense for both teams… Two pieces of crap who have pitched well at one time… Maybe new scenery helps each one go back towards mediocrity….Nothing to lose

  17. you guys never appreciated coco. and now coco is gone.

    we could have been beautiful together.

  18. Happ is another apple of AA’s eye from the Halladay negotiations, isn’t he?

    • I don’t know… always thought the Jays could have had Happ if they really wanted him. His name came up, though, yes.

  19. i dont think happ is going to end up as a blue jay at the end of today

  20. This smells of a – part 1 of a two part trade…..

    What I am wondering is – - -what team wants Happ & Lyon?

  21. I figured/guessed some sort of trade with Francisco, but this?

    I wonder when the Jays’ twitterers will be unmuzzled.

  22. Wojo and Musgrove are both good prospects. I wouldn’t have given up either one of them for JA Happ straight up. (That said, Coco and Benny Fresh have negative value, so AA probably had to give up more to get Houston to take them.)

    Still, don’t get it. There must be another deal coming. Maybe Lyon and Happ get flipped for a bigger piece.

    • Maybe AA had to pay a premium after saddling Houston with Brett “Thunder Thighs” Wallace.

    • wojo and musgrove are ‘good prospects’: yes – but they are not and wont be the gems of our system – at best they are bottom 20 at this point in time. This is a good deal for us. We get a controllable starter who has had success in his young career… not a bad deal at all.

  23. Carpenter has pontential i guess…….

  24. Only guys of Value Woj and Musgrove. Perez burried behind Jimenez D’Arnaud, JPA and Gomes.

    Woj and Musgrove are 3-4 years away and don’t have better then end of the rotation filler upside, much like Happ is now.

    Lyon is a solid reliever so he will help for this year and next with Oliver, Frasor, Janssen Santos.

    Carpenter I don’t know enough about.

    Also the Jays dump salary of Fransisco and Cordero who were wasting roster spaces. Now Snider is up too!

    • Lyon isn’t under contract for next year.

      And I think you’re right about the two wastes of roster spaces, but not the salary bit so much.

      • To all those people lamenting the fact that the Jays just traded away prospects , I recall people being pissed once upon a time that prospect Brandon Lyon was traded to Detroit (?) .

    • It isn’t clear if we dump salary. Specifics on whether any cash is changing hands often come out post-deal.

    • Exactly, and we have Sanchez, Syndergaard, Norris, Nicolino, Smoral, etc etc etc (on to infinity) waiting in the wings. Where exactly will Wojo and Musgrove be missed? We have enormous depth in our system to make these kind of moves.

      • The issue is that you use your depth to get pieces you need, none of which came in this trade.

        • We don’t need rotation depth and bullpen help?

          Something flashy and young would have been nice, but right now we need pieces like these. I wouldn’t doubt something more sexy is in the works. JA Happ for the next couple years isn’t shabby (better than Cecil/Drabek/Laffey), he’ll hold down a 4 or 5 spot until our prospects are ready. We might also have serviceable arms in Carpenter and/or if Lyon re-ups relatively cheap.

  25. Looks like AA valued Happ more than those four prospects. Interesting considering Happ’s mediocre career in the NL. He’s got a decent K/BB, but he’s always been especially HR prone.

    I don’t really get the Cordero/Lyon swap, unless AA thinks he can more easily move Lyon to another team than Coco. And Francisco just looks like a dump to make room for Snider (which might be the best part of this trade).

    • Yup… all of these points.

    • I don’t know how you don’t get the Cordero/Lyon swap. Lyon is a major league relief pitcher. Nuff said.

      • That’s nice that he’s a MLB RP, but considering he’s not under contract past this season (and the Jays won’t be contending until next season at the soonest), he really doesn’t have much use to them for the rest of the season. I would expect them to deal him in the next two weeks.

        • Well good then, that’s fine by me too. Its this simple: Lyon>Cordero. That’s all that matters.

        • you are an idiot.no use for the this season when they dont have anyone left standing. pull your head out of your ass

    • Not that Happ is anything special, but fuck, enough with the prospect porn.

      The Jays gave up a bunch of good but not great prospects. Selling low on Wojo? Fuck, this could be selling high as many have tabbed him as a reliever and his improved numbers come after repeating a level.

      Ditto for Perez.

      Not a swindle by any means (unless Happ is a moving part), but nothing too bad either.

      • It’s true, some get too attached to these prospects. Most of them (especially guys like this in A ball) don’t amount to much of anything. Happ is just a very underwhelming return in any trade.

  26. who are these people?

  27. bautista, rasmus and snider outfield for now, right?

  28. This is what happens when you deal for pitching from a position of weakness, guys.

    • What is what happens? You give up two pitching prospects who would rank below tenth best in your system?

      • You have to tack on a whole pile of prospects to get a back-end starter. I’m not saying it’s a bad deal, really, just that it seems to me that Houston used their leverage to get some free tries at the slot machine.

        If Houston could do that, imagine what the, say, Cubs, would be asking as a premium for Dempster or Garza when talking to the Jays.

        • They’d be asking for actual high-end prospects.

        • What are you talking about man? Every team in baseball has that caliber of mediocre prospects. Not every team (like, say the Blue Jays) has a young, controllable #5 pitcher. Barring a prospect miracle Houston is only getting angry message board posts about Coco out of this deal.

          • *sigh* Yes, this deal does not mean there can’t be another deal, because the prospects in player definitely come from different talent pools…. the point I’m trying to make is that other teams will definitely try to use the Jay’s rotation woes to squeeze out a better deal than they would be willing to take from another team.

            Hence the whole problem with “dealing from a position of weakness.” The Jays will have to give up more than they’d otherwise have to. It doesn’t matter here, but I’m guess it might affect AA’s willingness to pull the trigger on other deals.

          • When you’re the one acquiring players you’re basically never dealing from a position of weakness because you have 29 potential partners plus the choice of doing nothing. The weakness comes when you have to trade a player esp when like Halladay you have limited options. No matter how I look at it, I can’t see how we gave up over market for these guys.

          • Hentgen, every team looking for pitching at this time of year is dealing from a position of weakness.

            And Houston is looking for prospect depth, so AA is dealing to them from a position of strength, no?

        • There’s no guarantee those low-enders even make it to the Majors. Low-end prospects = low-percentage lottery tickets.

          • Ray, when you’re acquiring MLB-ready talent for prospects/spare parts, you’re already at a disadvantage, not an advantage. There are always teams looking to add to their MLB roster at the expense of their farm. Not all potential trading partners have what you need available, either.

            Weakness comes when people know that you neat to make a deal for a specific need. Halladay is an example. But so it is the case now, when the Jays rotation imploded. Teams will ask for more because they think they can GET more.

          • Hentgen: let me put it this way. There are 30 MLB teams with that kind of starter. There are maybe 10-15 teams with the kind of minor league depth to make that deal without thinking twice. That’s relative scarcity. We’re not negotiating from a disadvantage because we have the option of doing nothing and because there are at least 60 JA Happs in baseball.

          • With respect to the position of weakness/strength thing, it boils down to supply/demand. If there are a lot of teams looking to acquire big league pitching, then anyone with that asset is in a position of strength, and anyone trying to get big league pitchers is in a position of weakness. If there are a lot of teams trying to give up big league pitching then you are in a position of strength if you’re willing to deal prospects to get them.

            Why Toronto needs big league pitching is irrelevant. The fact that they’ve suffered injuries to their rotation isn’t the reason they are ‘in a position of weakness’, assuming they are in that position. The reason you could argue that they are in a weakened position is because there are a zillion teams trying to make it into the one-game playoff, and are all willing to buy pitching depth in exchange for prospects. Toronto is one of the teams looking to buy pitching depth, and it just happens to be because of their injuries (rather than because they’re making some mad push for the wild card – thankfully).

      • Don’t forget the #8th ranked catcher, Perez http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2012/#list=tor

  29. Some guy at the Dallas gazette heard happ was possibly moving. Jays were scouting Houston (supposedly for Wandy). This clearly had signs it was coming therefore not stealthy. I also had the car washer guy when I was in Houston say “you are the second Ontario license plate I’ve washed today”. Should have know!

  30. I had no frickin idea what to make of this. Lyon’s a solid setup guy I guess, so that the Jays don’t have to truck Gascan Frasor out there 5 days a week. J.A. Happ is going to get lit up in the AL East, I suspect, though he has a decent K rate. Carpenter? Ok rookie season last year at age 26, and sucked donkeys this year and back to AAA.

    Please, please, please tell me there’s a turnaround trade here to give me some excitement in my Friday.

    • “Gascan Frasor”? wtf. selective memory much?

      • I’m sorry. I couldn’t hear your objection over the sound of thousands of fans cheering for grand slams…

        • Jesus. I’m not saying Frasor is some elite shut down master, but he’s hardly a weakness. He’s a solid above average ML reliever and has been for years.

  31. According to Fangraphs, J.A. Happ looks good going forward” as of June 7:

    • Fantasy articles shouldn’t be taken out of context. Happ becomes less attractive as a play as soon as you drop him into the Beast

  32. A flip of the flops. Remember at the beginning of the season when people were extatic that we don’t have those scrubs any more? Here’s a new batch.

    It’s flea market bartering. I’ll give you my crap if you give me yours.

  33. Dont get it at all unless theyre flipping those shitbags. Carpenter is the only one that might be interesting.

  34. relax all. this is fine. prospects that leave are secondary and at positions of depth.

    Three reasons:

    1. Happ will help rotation this year and next
    2. Coco is gone. nuff said. bullpen is improved
    3. Ben Fran gone, Travis up, thats the best part

    • Nice post. Though, I am not sure I feel about going into next season counting on Happ as a part of the rotation. I guess I would feel as if some important upgrade failed to happen.

      • next years rotation – Morrow, free agent (grienke? :D), Romero, Happ, prospect of the day

        i could deal with that

    • Three good points!

    • This says it all. Coco gone, Snider up. Good news. The rest is just smoke & mirrors.

  35. I’m going to miss the total feeling of defeat and desire to be drunk every time Cordero entered the game

  36. They’re basically trading five prospects for these three guys plus “take two of our shitty players”. I’m not sure who wins or if anyone wins and we probably won’t know the answer to that for many years, and by then many of those prospects will be forgotten given the rest of the talent in the prospect pool.

  37. AA was just waiting for Stoeten to finish that 10,000 word dissertation before recalling Snider.

  38. A HR prone pitcher playing in the AL east? Hmmmmmmmm…well he had a good rookie season, not so much since.

  39. Also from Fangraphs:
    “I’d like to think that the luck Gods are simply making up for the amazing fortune J.A. Happ enjoyed in 2009 and 2010. Though his strikeout rate will decline once his BABIP does (SwStk% good, but not great), his underlying skills have clearly improved and this is the best Happ appears as a pitcher during his short career. He’s even throwing more first pitch strikes than ever before. I still worry about his control regressing and him being unable to sustain his ground ball spike, so I have little confidence in his SIERA staying so strong all year. ”


  40. On the surface this deal is totally in line with two of AA’s main messages: 1) rely on minor league pitching depth to make trades, and 2) the immediate need for big league pitching help, both starting and relief.

    While none of what we’re getting are impact guys, its an upgrade on what we currently have on our big league roster and gives AA options. The possibility of Happ et al. being flipped is a real one, but I could also see us hanging onto these guys for the rest of the season to make a ‘run’, and then having options in the off-season due to our control over the players.

    • I dont think happ is much of an upgrade on cecil/laffey to be honest. Lyon is decent but hes a reliever. Carpenter i have no idea about.

  41. Lol barry davis’s rationale for this being a great trade is they found someone to take franciso and cordero. Lol what a tool. Look at all the prospect pitching depth they gave up barry.

    • “Look at all the prospect pitching depth they gave up”

      Are you serious???

      • Woj, musgrove, rollins. Fuck, you would think 2 of 3 of those at most would be enough for the shitbags they got. Woj and musgrove were high draft picks as well.

        • High draft picks? One word: Whoop-di-fucking-doo!

          Seriously though. Who gives a fuck.

        • Here’s the thing: Teams always know their prospects better than anyone else. Maybe a 23 yr old who is good but not dominant while repeating a level at Dunedin isn’t quite the guy they thought they were getting when they drafted him. Musgrove seems like a guy who could be a major leaguer based on early returns but they know where he sits on their depth chart and they know that he has quite a few levels/years to get through before he even became an option for the team.

          If this was a team that didn’t have the arms it has (Sanchez, Syndergaard, Nicolino, Norris, Smoral, etc.) then sure you could complain but luckily that’s not the case.

          • Bang on, Jim.

          • *** If this was a team that didn’t have the arms it has (Sanchez, Syndergaard, Nicolino, Norris, Smoral, etc.) then sure you could complain but luckily that’s not the case. ****

            Add in: hutchison, osuna, cardona, strolman, comer and some more…. this has minimal impact on our minor league system…

      • +1. How on Earth could someone think the Jays just gave up their pitching depth? C’mon..

    • Barry Davis is right!

  42. Ugh…

    I don’t get this nor like it right now.

  43. I think we all need to stay tuned.

  44. Brutal trade imo. Just brutal. The prospects might be some time away but it takes depth away for other trades. They definitely seem to have sold low on Wojciechowki.

    Just look at where guys like Musgrove and Wojciechowki were drafted and tell me what they got back were worth those type of picks.

    • But they also bought low on Happ.

      • You’re assuming he’s going to improve. Other than his one decent season which is looking more and more like a fluke he’s been total shit since.

        • I heard that about Rasmus once.

          • lol really you`re comparing the two? A 29 year old replacement level player and someone with the ceiling Ramsus had? Ok but wow.

          • No I’m not comparing the two. You’re missing my point. Which is that if I’m asuming he’ll improve, you are equally assuming he will not. And you have no better reason to assume your assumption than I have to assume mine.

            I think I just set a record for the most uses of the word assume in a single paragraph…. or at least I assume I did.

    • That’s an absolutely ridiculous way to look at it, because they already made those picks you’re talking about, so you can’t just compare them to any pick that high. Woj was repeating at Dunedin, and Musgrove is probably lower than he is on the list of top arms in the system. And neither of them was in the top ten.

      Just brutal? Give your head a shake.

      • It’s brutal because you’re trading away the potential of those guys for junk you can get this winter for a pittance. It also removes those players for potential moves down the road. It’s brutal.

        • Hoard all the prospects!!

          • Not at all. Just explain to me how hard would it be to sign a Happ or Carpenter type player this winter for a bit of cash? If that’s the case why waste the potential of the prospects now?

        • Read what Jim wrote a couple comments up and continue giving your head that shake. Ridiculous.

          • Again why trade potential when you can get Happ and Carpenter types for cash this winter? The trade is ridiculous unless it`s part of another move. In that case I`d obviously rethink it. As for now two thumbs down.

          • So that we don’t lose every fucking game this year. Some of us actually watch the baseball team and don’t just salivate over prospects and dream of the future.

          • Stop using nebulous words like “potential,” because that’s not what the Jays dealt, they dealt two specific players, one repeating at High-A and not dominating, one in short season ball, neither projected to be high end guys, neither on the list of the ten best arms in the system that Jim Callis wrote about the other week.

            These aren’t prospects to worry about losing, and this is exactly what AA has said all along that he was going to do: build a wealth of prospect capital, then trade it to help the big club.

            Happ can be an OK starter the rest of the way this year, and ideally a sixth starter next year. Those guys, as we’ve seen this year, are important. Happ is better than the Aaron Laffeys of the world that you’re talking about being available for nothing this winter. Continue giving your head a shake.

          • Huh? Since when does repeating a level, especially after the team changed your mechanics, automatically make you a bust? Of course they moved potential. Whether it ever materializes is yet to be seen and that’s why it’s potential. If you don’t think that two first round picks don’t have potential then I don’t know what then. Unfortunately, we’re not going to see how this works out for a couple of years.

        • I’m Sorry, but left handed starters who strike out a batter per inning don’t grow on trees. Happ is a good option.

          • night_manimal’s use of the word potential is so heavy-handed that it’s frightening. Everything has potential by your logic. So what. There just isn’t as much of it as you make it out to be (and it’s not as likely that they reach it) in someone who can’t dominate a level at age above the average.

          • Good god man, your handle was just corrected for you like 4 lines up – fix it already!!!!

      • actually Woj was 10th thus he was in the top 10 (according to MLB affiliate rankings), thanks for coming out stoeten.

    • because draft position means a fucking thing. just ask Deck McGuire and Chad Jenkins.

  45. In principle, I like the idea of finally dealing prospects for MLBers. I hope to see more of that going forward. It’s just odd that they started with guys like Happ and Lyon.

    • Indeed. Those are the type of players you pick up from the FA scrap heap every winter. Trading prospects for them whether or not they’re super studs makes no sense.

      • Which isn’t to say I hate the trade, though. The chances of any of those low level prospects they dealt ever being as valuable as Happ is right now isn’t good (and I’m no fan of Happ as a pitcher).

        • The only think I like here is that Coco and Fransisco are gone and that Snider has a roster spot at last.

          Putting things into context, this season is pretty much a write off. Lyon will be gone. Carpenter has control issues and Happ has been total garbage the last 2 years in an inferior league and division.

          AA could easily get 2 guys for cheap similar to them this winter without giving up anything but a bit of cash.

          • Happ has not been total garbage. I don’t particularly like him either, but he’s been competent and good for innings-eating this year. xFIP is under 4, which is… again, competent.

            Please know the things you’re saying before you let that shit roll out of your mouth.

          • FFS you just used XFIP to measure his performance instead of what`s it`s supposed to be used for and that`s as a predictor or estimator. All that tells me is that he has a chance to be ok if he continued to pitch in the NL Central.

            Again he`s nothing better than what can be had this winter for cash if he lived up to the xFIP potential.

          • Yes, Snider finally being given a chance is probably my favourite part of the deal, too.

            However, you’re ignoring that this team has no real starting pitching depth (and no good prospect pitchers in the high minors right now). As a result of all the injuries, they’ve been forced into starting pitchers like Cecil, Laffey, and Villanueva. A guy like Happ can certainly be valuable to them (even if in the ideal world he wouldn’t be anything better than a 5th or 6th option in the AL East).

      • Do you clowns even watch baseball games or do you just create the Jays on your PS3 and simulate the seasons. We got two major league arms, Period! As for this “potential” bullshit. You speak of potential only in terms of upside. Who is to say that these prospects haven’t reached their highest trading level now, and therefore the Jays front office is in deed maximizing said prospects “potential” now.

        I love the idea of the Jays being great in the future, but I also want them to be good now, and this trade absolutely improves the club. Looking forward to seeing Snydes and his terrible haircut back in the field.

  46. Coco will now totally dominate NL hitters just to spite us all.

  47. The more I think about it, the more I like it. Really this is three decent A ball or lower prospects for a 4th/5th starter under contract through 2015 and a good high level/arrived back-end bullpen prospect in Carpenter. Lyon will help the bullpen through the rest of this season too.

    Even with Happ out of the equation, I’d take one AAAA prospect with a good looking arm over three good A level prospects any day of the week.

    Good trade that stabilizes now, and may help the bullpen in the long-term.

  48. Well, if we end up keeping Happ, I guess AA sees the 4.0 WAR and ROY runner-up of 2009 rather than the godawful -1.9 WAR shitbag of 2011 and middling innings-eater of 2012.

    Lyon is a nice replacement for Coco, but a FA after this year. Carpenter is garbage.

    A head-scratcher for sure…

  49. Could be another deal happening.. I don’t really see it though. If we’re underwhelmed with the addition of Happ – why would this be the deal sealer in another trade?

    Ultimately this is a move that replaces Cordero with someone NOT Cordero, adds another guy capable of eating starter’s innings and opens up a spot on the roster for Snider.

    Jays had to move some other parts to make it happen, but this was always the more likely trade than a blockbuster that returned a top 3 starter.

  50. Someone else mentioned this already:

    1. Cordero gone.
    2. Benny Fresh gone.
    3. Snider SMASH!

    How is this not good?

  51. Those who think its brutal are missing one part of the equation: the cost of other pitchers on the market. It’s clear someone was needed (I don’t think this bolsters the bullpen much) at starting pitcher. Happ is a #4 guy. Did you expect more from what we gave up?

  52. Let me get this right: Don’t get too high on prospects, until we ship them off for (solid) bullpen help, and a possible starter, then we need to whine and bitch about how good these guys were projecting to be.

    Please. I haven’t even heard of these guys before, from Goldstein, to you guys, I haven’t heard shit about these fellows until this trade.

    • Ppl are bitching cuz of who they acquired. If they acquired garza for the same package instead of fucking happ much less ppl would be bitching.

      • Your logic is astounding.

      • So Lyon and Carpenter are just mannequins we’re sticking in the shed then, eh? At least J.A. Happ has proven he’s just okay enough to stick around the majors after that decent year he had with the Phillies.

        You people also conveniently forget that Matt Garza is pitching in the FUCKING NL CENTRAL. He is going to come back to the AL East and get clobbered. I don’t believe in this “But he knows how to pitch here” bullshit.

        Uh, No, he’s been pitching to the level of competition in the awful National League. I’m sorry, but Garza is not the guy you think he is.

      • I’m sure we could have gotten garza for that package. And one of the big three and some other guys. Seriously – happ isn’t an ace for sure but cheaper than really mortgaging the future for dempster garza cole or greinke

        • this is the dumbest comment I’ve read on DJF. If you think we could have gotten Garza for this package of junk, you’re NVTS nuts

      • If you don’t actually live in Lansing, you’re an asshole for not liking this trade. All there is to it.

        • Or you just don’t get the trade you gain nothing and these prospects could become something probably not but that’s what makes it confusing.(they could)

          We’re no better than before so why make the deal there’s no reason to and no reason not to, just confusing is all.

    • I’m with you.

  53. It’s kind of interesting because if this is what essentially replacement level pieces at the major league level cost in terms of prospects then the price a decent pitcher is going to blow Jay’s fans away.

  54. This might be the fastest I’ve ever seen a thread get to 100 comments.

  55. I like this deal. Happ will lower the pressure to rush our better pitching prospects by holding the line at the end of the rotation and it seems like we didnt give up too much. I like musgrove a little and perez quite a bit more but they are miles away and are coming from positions of strength in the organization so it shouldnt hurt much at all

  56. I, for one, am glad we’ll never have to hear Buck try to pronounce “Wojciechowski”.

  57. Jays will also give a PTBNL.

    Doesn’t that normally mean it is a player that was drafted in 2012?

    Seems like they gave up a boat load.

  58. Ben Francisco has been underwhelming as that pinch-hitter/4th-5th Outfielder, Cordero has been awful (sorry Wilner, but Jesus, the guy is a shell of his former self) and a bunch of no-name, mid-level prospects.

    I’m giving the Jays the slight edge here.

    • Just because you haven’t heard of them, doesn’t make them “no-name” prospects.

      Perez, Woj and Musgrove were found in the top 15-20 prospects in the Jays system on a number of pre-season rankings. On most other teams, this would translate to an easy top 10 ranking for each of them.

      On one hand, I’m glad that AA brought in some SP reinforcement and that we didn’t need to give up a stud to do so. On the other hand, if you would have told me yesterday that the Jays would trade Perez, Woj and Musgrove in a deal, I would’ve hoped for something more useful than JA Happ.

  59. Wouldn’t Rodriguez be better than Happ? If – and I have no idea – either Rodriguez or Happ could have been obtained, doesn’t taking Happ feed the Rogersarecheapfucks argument, because the deal with Rodriguez seems to be that he’s a good pitcher but he’s seriously overpaid thru 2014?

  60. Man whatever gets us through this weirdly depressing season without further turning formerly confident farmhands (Gose, Dyson, Crawford) into weird quivering wrecks is a good thing in my books.

  61. Guys we get a 4/5 starter for this year and next and give up a couple B level prospects. We also get two relievers. For weeks I’ve been reading lets get a starter.
    Ricky Morrow Alvarez and Happ looks a lot better than what we had in my opinion heading into next year. Now AA needs to only get one “A” grade starter

  62. Hoping Carpenter is a dark horse in this one. I think I remember talk that he was a closer in waiting last year (decent stats aside from a high walk rate, but over half his walks were intentional). Looks like he fell of the rails this year, but maybe he turns it around.

  63. Happ meanwhile has advanced stats that are far better than his current performance, including an SIERA of 3.90 and an XFIP of 3.94. Not totally useless.

    Further, his ERA was actually pretty decent when he pitched in the bandbox that is Philadelphia, and only plummeted once he moved to the hopeless team that is the Astros. This would seemingly contradict expectations for a guy that gives up homers.

    At any rate, this trade is essentially crap for crap, so, whatever.

    I’d suggest there’s a second trade coming, but we didn’t really get any pieces back that would be useful in a trade; and with Perez out for the season, we need Lyon’s arm in the bullpen.

  64. Not liking what I’m seeing about this David Carpenter character…

  65. so is this the end of Cecil in the rotation? Or does CV go back to the bullpen? I hope it means Cecil is the odd man out. Try him in the bullpen and see if it works out.

    • I hope you’re right. Cecil isn’t even good as a 5th man/innings eater.

      • other than Romero, Cecil hasn’t been any better than CV and Laffey, either send Cecil back to Vegas or put him in the pen to see if he can be any good there.

      • Cecil has killer splits against lefties.

        Try him as a LOOGY…

      • 1. Ricky
        2. Alvarez
        3. Villanueva
        4. Happ
        5. Laffey

        1. Janssen
        2. Oliver
        3. Frasor
        4. Loup
        5. Beck
        6. Lyon
        7. A. Carpenter/Cecil/D. Carpenter?

        Who goes in that last bullpen spot?

  66. One potential annoyance out of this deal is getting reminded by Buck on a daily basis that Lyon is a former closer.

    • He “knows what it takes to close.” He has “closer experience.” Not just anyone can handle that inning. He has intangibles.

  67. you’re all such complainers.
    You hate cordero, we need pitching, ben fransisco is the definition of redundant, and your favorite minor leaguer gets calls up… and you still complain.

  68. “J.A. Happ is bad. At least he used to be, his numbers this season aren’t awful and he remains under control until 2015. He is the NL Central version of Ricky Romero Brett Cecil, a fly ball lefty who gives up a few too many home runs while missing too few bats.”

    J.A. Happ isn’t that good, but this is just incorrect… He has 98k’s in 104 innings and also hits 100mph on the gun.

  69. Perez was the best Blue Jays catching prospect not on a disabled list. Still behind D’Arnaud and Jiminez, though. It seems like the Minor league teams might need some catching filler.

  70. Could the Giants have wanted Happ? Maybe Belt for Happ?

    • I think Bruce Bochy would trade for a cheeseburger for Brandon Belt. The Astro’s would’ve offered fries with that, and the Giants would say “nah, I think we’re good”

  71. Ken Rosenthal just brought his up on Twitter: “One other aspect of the #BlueJays’ 10-player trade with #Astros: It finally opens up a roster spot for Snider with Jays.”


  72. Well we did need starting pitching.

    Drabek’s gone till the middle of next season at the earliest, and there’s a good chance Hutchison is gone all of next season. McGowan is always good for 4-5 quality starts before going on the DL.

    The biggest problem is that our farm arms are too far away. We have no one ready for a callup next year. The closest thing to a good prospect arm we have is hoping that McGuire or Jenkins turns things around their second year at New Hampshire.

    Our rotation going into next season was Romero, Morrow, Alvarez, Cecil, and Laffey. Clearly, we needed immediate help, and we got it. Happ will either be a decent fifth starter, or he can join Laffey and/or Cecil at (hopefully) AAA-Buffalo and wait for the inevitable injury.

    • Indeed. Well said.

      Also, can we talk about what the fuck Drew Hutchison is doing for a minute? Because I have this disturbing feeling that this no-surgery route he’s taking is going to back-fire hard. AAA-Buffalo? Are the Jays planning on switching affiliates next year?

    • Having Happ even as depth is a key thing, too. Not that we didn’t already know, but I think we’ve seen this year how important it is for the club to be able to go several starters deep. Happ doesn’t prevent you from getting anybody this winter, or later this month, but he’s there and serviceable, and could be a nice #6 starter next year, which the Jays don’t really have at the moment.

      • Is he bad enough to pass up and down waivers though?

      • Yes…this is my thinking. With the starting pitching having been decimated due to injuries (Drabek, Hutchison, Litsch) or poor performance (Cecil, Carreno), having Happ around as depth could be useful even in future seasons (and especially right now).

        • Fucking right Happ is useful. You can run the sack of shit out there for another 100.00 innings of 4.00 era 4.50 FIP ball this year. The goal here is to limp through the season, not make the playoffs. If we’re lucky, next year he’s number five or bumped to the pen.

          All it cost the jay’s a couple losers i’m happy not to have to watch anymore and a roll of prospect dice. whatevs.

  73. The Jays have gotten rid of so much Francisco in the last few years..

  74. Holy shit guys. Are you fucking kidding me with this negativity? We gave up 23/24 year olds who are repeating high-A ball! For actual pitchers! The ceiling for these guys is JA Happ. And who was trading for Perez, the #4 CATCHER in the system who is also repeating a minor league level? These weren’t guys who were gonna help us this year or next year or even the year after. Wow, people finding any reason to piss and moan I guess.

  75. In more important news, Colby Rasmus likes cake.


    • No kidding. This is actually more interesting to me than this trade. Thanks. We are obviously desparate for any roster news of any type. Hopefully bigger things to come. Things as big as that cake!

  76. Hopefully we can con arizona into taking happ

  77. I think if anything, this shows the ridiculously high value fans place on prospects.

    I mean, this is what Goldstein had to say about Wojo recently:


    Maybe a non-closing reliever. RT @JackCekovic: @Kevin_Goldstein Asher Wojciechowski’s future? Reliver(closer)/starter(4th/5th guy)??? ”

    Perez was blocked and isn’t close, Joe Musgrove is in frickin’ BLUEFIELD.

    I doubt this “hurts the system” in any way, shape or form.

    • Exactly. People love their prospect porn.

    • I don’t disagree with the realistic expectations of these guys, but it does seem as though this was a lot of lottery tickets to give up for JA Happ and David Carpenter.

    • The fact that Perez was blocked doesn’t change his value as a player. Technically, d’Arnaud is blocked right now too. And what does it matter that Musgrove is in Bluefield? So is Osuna and Norris. Playing in Bluefield and being a useful piece aren’t mutually exclusive.

      You’re very right though, the ‘system’ is still in fantastic shape, but again, that isn’t the point. The point is leveraging what assets you have to get the best possible return.

      If the best possible return for that package of assets is JA Happ and a couple relievers, then so be it. Some people may not be completely satisfied, but it’s very likely that AA has a better sense of the trade market pulse than anyone reading this.

  78. I’m trying to do some mental math and granted it’s Friday so I might be off but don’t we need to make another roster move.

    On the Active Roster
    1. Snider
    2. Happ
    3. Lyon

    Off the Active Roster
    1. CoCo
    2. Benny Fresh
    3. ????

    Which of the starters gets sent down. I guess we just assume it’s Cecil?

    • You forgot Carpenter. I assume Chad Beck would go down, and maybe Lyon or Carpenter?

      • I already assumed Carpenter would go directly to Vegas. I’m doubting they send down Beck when he’s in the rotation and Happ is a starter.

      • Throw a dart at the reliever depth chart. Odds are you’ll hit someone worse than what we picked up to send to triple A

  79. I get a dinger, and you get dough

  80. So who steps out of the rotation?

  81. I understand that we didn’t really give up much of anything, but I don’t understand why we had to give up 7 players to get J.A. Happ, Brandon Lyon, and David Carpenter? Seriously, can’t we get those guys by only giving up Coco, Francisco and 2 prospects? Anyone?

    • Have you seen Cordero and Francisco play this year? I think it was necessary.

      Not to mention with this market for pitching help, you’re going to have to overpay. Period. No one needs position player help it seems.

      • It depends what kind of prospects; if they were MLB ready or high ceiling prospects, one or two probably would’ve done it. If they are likely minor league filler players it takes about five.

    • I’d imagine those two are only involved in order to make the deal salary neutral.

      • As in, the real deal was 5 prospects to Houston for J.A. Happ, Brandon Lyon, and David Carpenter – and then AA said “I’ll only make the deal if you take CoCo and BenFrank off my hands”?

  82. Just looking up Happ on fangraphs, stats this year:

    Strikeouts up
    walks lower than last two years
    Babip up over last couple of years
    GB% a career high
    HRS are up
    ERA higher than FIP
    XFIP of 3.94

    Maybe they saw something here? Enough to be a good back of the rotation starter for the next couple of years anyways.

  83. Got to say, im kind of surprised they didnt give up sam “best stuff in organization” dyson. Surely HOU would want him.

  84. The Jays need to acquire Domonic Brown & get Oakland to send Michael Taylor this way. Every player rumoured in Halladay talks must be ours!

  85. Just to stir the pot a bit, they still have to make another move to free up space for Snider on the Roster.

    • Well, two off the roster…two (lyon and Happ) in. a third (carpenter) who may or may not be. Potentially it could be TWO spots they need to open up.

      Im guessing whoever gets bumped for the rotation gets bumped to the pen. Someone from the pen gets dumped to the minors.

      If they add carpenter to the big team, then someone else has to go as well

      • Carpenter’s been sent to Vegas already. You’re probably right, in that they send Beck or Loup back to the minors.

  86. This seems like the exact kind of trade that AA was working up to with his prospect depth. Arguably 3 second tier prospects for a couple of MLB ready, controllable arms to help with the Jays close to contention.

    This isn’t a game changer but it reflects the next stage of AA’s thinking as the team moves closer to the playoffs. And maybe I’m missing something but doesn’t Carpenter have the best stuff of anybody in this deal? Plus we’ve got we’ve got 5 years of control for him to work on his.

    I have no problem with this deal but then again I wasn’t expecting a bunch of decent prospects to net Garza in return.

  87. Let’s not forget – Happ was high on AA’s radar when he traded Halladay (Phillies wouldn’t trade him but later let him go for Oswalt). Guess he still sees something in him. Either way, AA is banking on this deal being spare parts and middling prospects going for a couple guys who could be useful down the road, as they have control left and presumably, minor league options left. Not a bad deal I don’t think, and I think Asher Woji… is probably the only guys Jays fans might keep an eye on for a couple years, just in case.

    Who knows though – remember when AA fleeced Gose from the Astros for Brett Wallace? If Happ turns out to be the prospect the Phillies thought he was, and that the Astros thought he was when they shipped Oswalt out for him, it’s a helluva trade, isn’t it? And, the journalist-tweeters are saying Carpenter might well represent the key to the whole deal. You also have to look at the fact that this opens up playing time for Travis Snider… so, fuck, looks good enough to me. And let’s face it, Lyon’s GOTTA be better than Coco, right?

  88. A smidgen more pitching depth for this year and next and Travis Snider has been freed. Still don’t like getting rid of Asher though.

    • For sure… but on the Asher thing, the Jays dealt him from a position of organizational strength – essentially, they have several Ashers.

  89. Makes the pitching markedly better. Adding Lyons, and subtracting Coco is a clear upgrade. Happ is an upgrade over Cecil or Laffey. And don’t forget that whoever’s posiiton in the rotation he takes will go the pen, and I think both of those guy will be very good relievers.

  90. I know Happ has been less than effective for the Astors, but if I’m not mistaken wasn’t he a very highly touted (like the #1 pitching prospect) in the Phillies org that they traded as the centre piece in the Hunter Pence deal.

    It would seem to fit with AA style to pick a guy like this up and try to have him fulfill his potential in TO. See Escobar, Rasmus.

    Still, if a guy has had middling success in the NL Central, he’s going to get fucking pumped in the AL East.

  91. All you critics are the same bunch who crapped on AA when Rasmus came over last year, and who crapped on EE last year when he struggled early on…

    Let’s face it: with all the injuries this year, the Jays are very likely out of the playoff picture. They need some arms to try to stop the bleeding this year. That’s all I think this deal is.

  92. Shit for more shit, gotta love it huh. Hearing that someone at 1 Blue Jays Way shit their pants today, what a rush!

  93. Justin Upton???????????

  94. Are the Jays trying to corner the market on Carpenters? Are they going to trade for the other David Carpenter as well? Is this some kind of Jesus thing?

  95. Just an FYI – AA will be on baseball central with Wilner and Hayhurst within the next hour.

  96. To some extent, there is fan disappointment in this trade because we have become spoiled into thinking that the Jays must always get the higher upside players in every deal (think Morrow, Rasmus, Escobar et al. all obtained at what appeared to be a severely deflated price). When a trade happens that is not like that, we’re left wondering as to why the team made the trade at all.

    I suppose I am fine with the trade, as underwhelming as it may be.

  97. This should be the record for most comments per minute on djf?

  98. is this it or is there more trades to come involving this team?

  99. Happ really only needs to bring his HR rate down in order to be a pretty respectable pitcher. Not great, but someone who can eat some innings at close to the league average.

    I wouldn’t necessarily bet on it, but I’d give it a much higher chance of it happening than any of the prospects amounting to much. It’s just the nature of prospects that a lot fail, and these guys are far enough away and far enough on the depth chart that their likelihood of success is small.

    Put another way, with Happ, the floor is a fringe back-end starter, but there’s a bit of a lottery ticket aspect with him as well, since there’s a non-trivial chance he pitches closer to his peripherals and serves as a solid #4 type or even a borderline #3.

    • Im sure it will be easy for Happ to bring his home run rate down going from the NL central to the AL East

      • While the AL East will undoubtedly make it harder for him to make that kind of adjustments, it also makes it less likely that any given pitching prospect will succeed.

  100. If I am such a high upside guy, why was I in double at in my age 25 season? More likely I am Josh Roenike

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