Warning: apc_store(): Potential cache slam averted for key 'w3tc_blogs.thescore.com_1_sql_95ee78392381ffbfe4b66e3133ee6205' in /opt/blogs/wp-content/plugins/w3-total-cache/lib/W3/Cache/Apc.php on line 41 Warning: apc_store(): Potential cache slam averted for key 'w3tc_blogs.thescore.com_object_9ee1addf54ad00867451ed4d367f2c40' in /opt/blogs/wp-content/plugins/w3-total-cache/lib/W3/Cache/Apc.php on line 41 Warning: apc_store(): Potential cache slam averted for key 'w3tc_blogs.thescore.com_15_object_69be6f0f58698dc437fd681ecbdd920c' in /opt/blogs/wp-content/plugins/w3-total-cache/lib/W3/Cache/Apc.php on line 41 Warning: apc_store(): Potential cache slam averted for key 'w3tc_blogs.thescore.com_object_c8478405b42a12eba8c0dbf6a24e2873' in /opt/blogs/wp-content/plugins/w3-total-cache/lib/W3/Cache/Apc.php on line 41 Wednesday Josh Johnson Rumblings | Drunk Jays Fans | Blogs | theScore.com

When healthy, Josh Johnson is a terrific pitcher (2.97 FIP and 3.1 fWAR this season). He’ll turn 29 in January, and is under contract for this season and next at $13.75-million each.

Naturally, he’s being coveted on the trade market, though reports– like this tweet from Buster Olney– suggest that they had originally planned on only trading one of Johnson or Hanley Ramirez, who was shipped off in the middle of the night to Los Angeles.

The Jays’ name continues to come up in the rumours surrounding Johnson– Jon Morosi tweets that an executive tells him that he expects the Jays among the teams to make a push, for example. This is partly because Alex Anthopoulos has made it club policy to check on everything, but also partly because dealing for Johnson would make a hell of a lot of sense for the Jays.

The need for pitching in Toronto right now is painfully obvious, and the fact that Johnson would be able to help them next year makes him all the more attractive a commodity. Add in that the Jays, despite most of their high-end prospect assets being farther from the big leagues than desirable, have redundancies in areas that could help Miami, and you could have the makings of a deal. That is, if the Jays wanted to be aggressive enough to offer one of centre fielders and/or one of their shortstops.

With Ramirez gone, the Marlins have a spot at third base where Yunel Escobar could slot in, and at a much cheaper rate, on a much more team-friendly deal, and potentially for longer than Hanley was signed on for. Anthony Gose could also have a lot of interest there– or Jake Marisnick– because, as Dave Cameron pointed out yesterday at FanGraphs, Miami could use a centre-fielder-of-the-future.

Of course, good as he is, five-and-a-half years of Gose and three-and-a-half of Escobar seems like a ridiculously hefty price to pay for just one-and-a-half of Johnson– though perhaps mitigated by the fact that Johnson would recoup a draft pick if he walks after 2013. Still, it wouldn’t necessarily have to be both. But it will take something special to land him– including, one presumes, taking on the entire rest of his contract– as it’s being rumored that the Texas Rangers are mulling whether to include high-end prospect Mike Olt to the mix.

That rumour comes via a tweet by Evan Grant– the heart and soul of the Dallas Morning news– who adds that the suggestion may just be a ploy by the Marlins to increase the market for their pitcher.

If there’s real merit to his inclusion, though, it’s worth pointing out that Olt was 75th on Keith Law’s pre-season top 100 for ESPN.com (behind Gose, who was 59th), and 45th on Kevin Goldstein’s list at Baseball Prospectus– ahead of Gose (68) but behind Marisnick (58).

Do the Jays get cold feet when we start talking about parting with prospects so highly rated? I argued two weeks ago that they shouldn’t be afraid, but I don’t know… I just wonder if, once again, they’re going to find themselves outbid by clubs who are more aggressively win-now. If the market goes crazy, it’s likely going to take an over-pay to get a guy like Johnson, and we know how Anthopoulos feels about those.

The amount by which they might have to over pay matters, of course, but you’d hate to see a guy like this land somewhere else, when you know damn well that the Jays should have the pieces to land just about anybody, if they’re willing to use them– and that they probably could get away with making a deal without breaking up the Lansing Three or including Dan Norris, either.

I’m totally just spitballin’, of course, but… what a piece Johnson would be for the 2013 Jays. And if they’re dealing from redundancies… why not?

 

Image via Marc Serota/Getty.

Comments (145)

  1. couldn’t they have expanded the deal to include han-ram? that would have made sense for a top prospect.

  2. Would love to see this get done. When this guy is healthy he is a stud. What a one two punch he and Morrow would be at the top of the rotation.

    • And assuming Romero can figure it out and get back to where he should be, Morrow/JJ/Romero is a heck of a top three.

      • its a good top 3, but is it among the best in baseball? maybe not, hard to say because none of those three guys have been what we expected them to be this year.

        • I never said it was among the best in baseball, but it could be. Anyway it’s real solid and with the offense we’re building it’s a great start.

          • Johnson hasn’t been what you expected this year? Coming off a season-ending injury he has a sub-3 FIP and has been worth over 3 wins on FanGraphs. What did you expect of him?

  3. Yeah. If there’s one Marlin I want to hook, it’s JJ. Well actually Stanton as well, but I figure if anyone’s untouchable, it is he. I’m not so high on Hanley anymore, given he’s put up a few mediocre hitting seasons in a row now, is fairly expensive for that, declining defensively.

  4. Johnson, Morrow, Romero, Alvarez, Hutch/Happ/Laffey would be a great rotation. I think it would project the Jays as being a legit playoff threat in 2013 … and make it that much more realistic they can somehow sneak in in 2012.

    As you say, the only bummer is that you’re only getting him for 1+ years. It would be burning a lot of prospect capital for one year of a guy who’s injury prone. Maybe that’s worth it though, I dunno.

    • That one year next year would be a perfect stop gap to wait to see what the low arms will have accomplished. Who knows where our system will be in 2 spring training’s from now.

      • I think they could still sign a FA on top of it.

        • Just doing further spit-balling, but if the Jays traded for Johnson and signed a FA like Anibal or EJax, that would appropriately force them to demote Alvarez to develop properly. Then, if he’s knocking on the door again with more than 2½ pitches, you can trade whoever the signed FA for help in other needs, or trade Alvarez who would become a huge commodity.

          It makes some sense, but that’s a lot to happen in a long time. It’s just a shame that Anthopoulos is so anal about prospects, and maybe that’s a good thing.. just not all the time.

  5. I wouldn’t be surprised to see any of the top prospects (and more) mentioned in this article go to the Marlins for Johnson. In addition to the extra year of control, Johnson’s likely a draft-pick compensation player when (if) he signs with a new team after 2013.

    • Excellent point, which I should have included. (And then I went ahead and did include. Thanks!)

  6. I suppose they could have tried to get Hanley, but do you really want him playing SS for you? I dont.

    • maybe the answer to why we didn’t get hanley is starring us in the face – because the piece we would have needed to trade (gose or marsnick, or yunel) is the piece we need to potentially land JJ…..

  7. Glad we didn’t get Ramirez myself. Now Johnson, hell yes.
    at full contract I’d offer some building blocks for sure. We need a lot of depth at SP. Happ and Johnson could help out a lot. Would feel more comfortable with another year of control though but really, that should just reduce the asking price.

    The market is pretty crazy though so as long as it can be done rationally then I’m all for it.

  8. Would the asking price for Johnson be higher than Hanley because teams wouldn’t be eating quite as much money? Or would one less year of control balance that out?

    Either way, if you told me that Toronto had to give up Gose and miscellaneous prospect X to get Johnson, I’d try to make that deal in a heartbeat.

    • asking price for johnson will be higher for sure.

      • Pretty much what I figured. Gose, Matt Dean and someone like Sean Nolin might be a good package. Would hope that they make the move though with the intent of getting Johnson to ink something beyond 2013 though.

        • I just would like to know anything about Sean Nolin. 6’5″ lefty having a great year and probably will be top of the rotation pitcher. I would not give him and Gose away for a little over a year of JJ. And I really want us to trade for him.

          • That comment of mine made no sense. I was asking if you know what you’re offering in that trade.

          • He’s 22 pitching in A+ ball. He is an interesting arm for sure, but definitely not projected to be a top of the rotation pitcher.

          • To be fair, how many of us here know what we’re offering when we’re talking about these prospects? While Nolin is having a great year, I don’t think I’ve seen him on any prospect evaluator’s radar in terms of being a “top of the rotation” kind of guy.

            A projectable CF of the future, a decent-good 3B prospect and a decent P prospect seems like a fairly solid package to offer the Marlins, at least to my eye.

          • “6’5″ lefty having a great year and probably will be top of the rotation pitcher”

            a) There’s no “probably” with young pitchers in High-A, except that they “probably” won’t amount to anything.
            b) I don’t think a single prospect guru has Nolin’s ceiling as top of the rotation

  9. What did the Dodgers pay for Hanley and Choate in Blue Jays terms? What are those guys equivalent to in our system?

    • i think the main piece would be comparable to Alverez for the Jays

    • To me, a rough Jay equivalent to Eovalde would be Alvarez (same age, similar amount of MLB experience), though Alvarez was probably seen as having more upside coming into this year. McGough is just one of those ‘minor league reliever with a good arm’ that any decent farm system has a half dozen of..

      Maybe it’s me, but if I’m Miami, Gose and Escobar doesn’t seem like enough to get a pitcher of Johnson’s caliber.

    • If someone had suggested last week that we trade Alvarez for Hanley Ramirez what would the reaction have been?

  10. I agree, you will have to overpay for a guy like Johnson. But isn’t he exactly the kind of guy you’d want to overpay on? If you aren’t going to give up some of your prospects for him…who do you give up your prospects for?

  11. I have no problem sending Gose for Johnson since we have Rasmus and Marisnick. But given the JA Happ trade, I think it takes more than just Gose.

    We have no replacement for Yunel; I do not believe that Hech is an adequate replacement if the Jays are to be contenders.

  12. What about a package built around Arencibia for Johnson?

    • They already have Arencibia (john buck)

      • JPA is younger and cheaper and some people still look at RBIs

        • JPA is vastly outperforming Buck this year, and it has nothing to do with his RBI total. JPA is almost a league average bat (97 wRC+), which is quite a bit better than the league average catcher (92 wRC+), and certainly better than Buck (63 wRC+).

      • JPA is an RBI BAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • ya…but..but…he clogs up the bases.

          • Why would you want to get rid of a 25-30 home run guy, who calls a fair game? The guy in Vegas is a fragile, but slightly taller Mathis. Imagine Fielder charging home and Darneault ? (sp) blocking the plate? Hello DL.

            • I would trade JPA in a heartbeat. His defense is atrocious.TDA is gonna be an all star. I think JPA goes in the off season or next deadline

  13. If Gose, taking on JJ’s salary, and a B prospect (Stilson?) could get it done, I say go, go, go for it.

    Even if Gose develops his hit tool, it’s going to take a while. Meanwhile, I think we’ve got something we can really appreciate in Rasmus at CF, and he’s controllable and finding a decent home here.

  14. FWIW, Joel Sherman recently tweeted Jays are trying to move Escobar. I know he’s a real baseball guy and not some random twitterer, don’t know how good his sources are regarded….

  15. This will never happen but what about swapping Escobar for Reyes despite his horrible contract

  16. the knobler reported earlier that the A’s had a sweetheart deal lined up for ham-ram – a couple prospects and the fish eat half of the salary – but they dragged their feet to the point where the dodgers snuck in and got him because they were willing to take on all of the salary.

    how about this – escobar to the A’s for a prospect that the miamis like + gose for johnson?

    i do that deal 10 times out of 10. johnson is a big time upside play given his injury history… but the jays deal from a position of strength… and add johnson without – arguably – reducing the talent at the big league level.

    • Makes zero sense, man. Why deal Escobar then turn and make a deal that is obviously a play for now? I would love to see Hech come in and dazzle with the glove, save runs and overachieve with the bat, but betting on that with a guy who has never played in the bigs – especially if you’re making a play for now – is suicide.

      • Honestly, even if Hech comes up and hits .220 with 5hrs next year … I think the offense is probably good enough to sustain one guy in the lineup hitting that badly.

        Obviously it’s not optimal .. but I don’t think it would submarine the team or anything.

  17. Seems to me a better buy than Grienke at $25 million for forty years. Damn, that Hamels deal.

  18. i don’t think i’m the only one who thinks hech is at least as good as escobar today (total package bat + glove)… rogers saves $5M per to help offset the addition of johnson’s contract…

    • How much have you seen Hech play? And if you’ve been watching him play recently, it’s been in the skewed confines of Vegas. I’m wary of most all of the conditions at work here.

    • Just because you’re not the only one doesn’t mean that you’re not insane. I think the ardent of Hech advocates are more looking to the future when Escobar’s range begins to decline, not to where the two stand side by side today.

      • i saw something from KG (@BP) the other day where he thinks hech can come up and hit 270-280 today… probably without any power or walks… but WTF is yunel doing with the bat? he is OBPing under 300 with no power. it is not like the threshold is unattainably high.

        …and hechavarria is pretty special with the leather.

    • Yeah, but Yunel is much better then Yunel today.

      What we are geting from SS right now is probably Yunels floor and Hechs ceilling.

      • i love these guys who know what hechavarria’s ‘ceiling’ is… we’re talking about a guy that has 560 odd PAs in AAA (323/371/449) and everyone is simply ignoring those ABs in favor of his AA numbers.

        sure you probably have to discount his numbers in vegas somewhat… but isn’t it also possible that a guy who just turned 23 in april is improving? especially a guy with hechavarria’s background?

  19. Everyone is so fixated on this lansing big 3. The reality is, these kids are so far away from the majors that if you have to trade one of them for a pitcher the caliber of johnson you do it. Not only that, but they dont have as much value as everyone thinks because they are so far away from the majors. If they were in AA they would have significantly more value.

    • I agree. There’s no guarantee ANY of those three turn out to be anything close to a guy like JJ.

      • There’s also no guarantee that they don’t become Halladay, Verlander, and Cliff Lee. Just sayin’. There’s always a risk anyway you look at it.

        • Based on some of the reports, it isn’t really a big 3.

          Some scout quipped Nicolino is a 5th starter who can just deceive lower level competition.

          BA recently said Nicolino is a #3 IF he adds velocity.

          This could easily be selling high on Nicolino.

        • I guess so, although that’s more unlikely. I just hope that the mindset of AA isn’t “I cannot trade my prospects because they’re all going to be very good and very cheap.”

          Very good and very cheap is one thing (Rays starters)

          Not very good and cheap is another (Jays starters)

    • Keep in mind that Hutchinson was in Lansing this time last year.
      An advanced arm can make move through the high minors at a very torrid pace.
      I suspect we’ll see one of the Lansing 3, whe the rosters are expanded in Sep 2013.

  20. Absolute shit of a deal

  21. I would do the trade if its both gose and a SS in the deal. There is a large chance that gose will never hit and end up a rajai davis with better defense. I would try to trade hech since there is a large chance that he may become a glorified john mcdonald.

    • I’d ship you and your stupid beard in the deal as well.

      • hey i may not be able to run, hit or catch but at least I don’t deflect the ball over the fence with my glove for a HR…………wait, dammit

  22. I think if Johnson is available, AA has gotta throw the dice and spend some of his prospect capital. The pitchers in the minors wont be a real help here for a bit and when they are ready,he ll have to start re tooling the position players. That will ensure that the Jays stay within reach of a playoff spot for years to come but never quite accomplishing anything. This may not be the year, but a few moves now on controlable plays and meaningful games into Sept. would serve as a great springboard to a legit run in 2013. Johnson available?? Go get’em Alex!

  23. “and 45th on Kevin Goldstein’s list [...] ahead of Gose (68) but behind Marisnick (58)” either Goldstein uses some wierd Sumerian numbering system or there’s a typo somewhere there…

  24. Very well done on the Evan Grant – heart and soul of the Dallas Morning News.

    The Jays should do everything in their power to make this happen.. ESPECIALLY if they are dealing redundancies as you suggest. If they can get out of this without dealing one of the Lansing 3 its an automatic for me.

    Sure its a move that is not without risk – but you can’t get ahead as the Blue Jays without taking a chance in dealing prospects. If they sit on their hands always – the team will always be “just out of reach” for contention.

  25. Just something I googled today: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9935

    Jays top 11 prospects from just 2 years ago… Not trying to criticize Goldstein, but these guys GENERALLY don’t pan out the way they’re projected to. If you can get proven talent (and a guy who has the stuff, minus health) to be a number 1… you gotta do it…

    • The part where he highlights Drabek’s command was particularly depressing.

    • 5 guys of the first 11 in the majors within two years plus a couple still as primo prospects. That is pretty good. Still lots of potential in Alvarez and Drabek. JPA seems to be getting better with the bat and much better behind the plate. Collins doing very well in relief.

      • Not much potential in Drabek anymore. The success rate (i.e. the chance that pitchers return to their former level) undergoing TJ is 90% or so. The chance for pitchers on their 2nd TJ? 20%. That number skews heavily towards relievers. Starting pitching is much lower then 20%.

        That’s from Dr. James Andrews himself.

        • So you want to throw a bunch of top prospects for a guy who also had TJ and shoulder injuries on top of that and for just one year of control. Ok.

      • I agree the guys have made it to the majors, but I guess what I was more alarmed about is the order… In any case, if you can acquire a Johnson, you do it… (sounds dirty as I type)

  26. I would be willing to part with one of the big 3 at Lansing if he didnt have such a history of injuries behind him.

    As for we who give up its possible in addition to a prospect the Marlins would want someone like Cecil Laffey or Happ back to slot into their rotation immediately. If they did you could reduce the prospect going to Miami. Imo since the Jays are fringey contenders for a WC this year anyway they are actually in a better spot than a lot teams to do this. Sure you would hurt your depth a little this year but next year you would be far ahead.

  27. I’d do Nicolino + Gose and a B prospect or two for Johnson. Johnson is now the most sought after pitcher that may or may not be on the market (he’s better than Garza).

    He’s a guy you pay for, and we have the pieces as long as Miami isn’t being completely nuts.

  28. trading yunel would be absolutely stupid. Hech is a bottom of the order bat,

  29. JPA straight up for Johnson.

  30. Personally, I dont care what top prospect they want. There isnt a single prospect I would not deal for him. Getting into multiple top specs and I may change my opinion depending on who. I am as excited about D’arnaud as anyone, but give me JJ pitching to JPA and I will get over it quick.

    Any 1 of the big 3 (4 with Norris), would prefer not to.. but dammit why not. What are the chances any/all of them put up CY worthy numbers in the majors, something JJ has done already.

    Mostly I just want something big to happen, something for now and the future. They have the pieces to get JJ if the Marlins are legit about taking offers, and the system is deep in strong albeit unproven talent.

  31. What would be the best package for us to give; hech + one of lansing three for jj?

  32. Don’t forget, as much as Rogers covets Canadian players above and beyond their skillset because of the marketing value, so too does Miami covet Latin players for the same reason and to give their fanbase players to identify with. And within that niche, there probably lies a sub niche that the Marlins covet most of all in Cuban players. To that end, both Hech and Escobar probably have value to Miami above and beyond their skillset and contracts.

    Also, JPA would be a great fit for Miami, as they have a need at C, JP is Latin (obviously) and from Miami.

    I say Hech, JPA, and Gose. Gose is redundant with Rasmus solidified as CF of the future (I personally don’t think Gose’s hit tool is any good….nothing to sdo with his poor showing, but his contact rates have been horrible his entire career…..contact rates do not typically jump at the MLB level) Hech is almost certainly not ever going to be a good MLB hitter, and JPA is obviously gone here anyways.

    Yes, it would suck to give Mathis full time AB’s, but this team is much better with Mathis as it’s full time C and JJ in the rotation, then with JPA here and no JJ.

  33. I’d love to have a JJ pitching for the home squad but…. I’m not willing to part with anything decent for a guy who if he stays healthy will pitch 2 meaningless months in ’12 and a full 2013. In hindsight, wouldn’t Darvish for $$$ only have made so much sense?

  34. If as the article states – Escobar and Gose would get the deal done – Then why has this deal not been finalized???? I would do that in a heartbeat

  35. I know that AA calls everybody about everyone, but you would have to think that he’s going to try really hard on this deal. Sure, Texas has more motivation for this year, but locking Johnson into the rotation for 2013 along with Romero/Morrow would be huge. If he then pitches well, we would have a leg up in terms of offering an extension. It wouldn’t be cheap, but I don’t know if we really want to wait for all of our A ball guys to develop before adding another elite pitcher to the rotation.

    I’m not sure how much this counts either, but it would be nice to send out the vibe that we’re looking to win in the near future. Probably helps guys like Bautista relax a little and also lets free agents know that they would be joining something special.

  36. I would love to see the Jays trade Gose and Hech for Johnson.

    • not a chance for both?!?! you must be the famous amazing guy

      FamousAmazingGuy says:
      07.17.12 @ 9:53 PM EDT
      Reply
      not sure why they’re burning coco in a low leverage situation?

  37. Ugh I so don’t want to get excited because I know we’ll be outbid by an offer with shitty prospects but which is willing to take on JJs entire salary. Having said that, he’d be SO good and we have SO many tradeable assets. Come on Rogers, if you do this I’ll go sign up for one of your shitty phone plans!

    • JJ is gonna require a team take on the whole salary AND give up really good prospects. This isn’t going to be like the HanRam deal.

      If Texas is serious about Olt, we have no chance.

  38. Great article by Keri on overpaying for guys at the deadline. A nice cautionary tale. Check his Twitter feed for link.

  39. Also, the fact that the marlins have their GM assistant in town to watch the jays has to mean something. My gut says theyre looking at escobar and gose. Maybe cecil as well.

  40. Marisnick was 28th on Goldstein’s list

  41. Wouldn’t an offer of Cecil, (Miami native) JPA & Gose get it done RIGHT NOW?

    Even if it’s an overpay, none of those 3 have a good probability of being anything better than average starters at their position.

    If Mike Olt is considered good enough to be a centrepiece, the Jays can blow that offer out of the water and not really hurt their 2013 chances slotting D’arnaud at catcher.

    Sure, AA should obviously take his time so he doesn’t overpay. But the pieces are right there…

  42. Only do it if you get Reyes as well, Detroit showed AA how to make a deal instead of the shit 10 player deal

  43. Fuck off, we are not trading Gose. Idiots

    • Because?

      • If we are, i want a Grienke back. Not A Johnson. Gose looks like he will be really good soon, i wouldn’t trade him ever

        • Gose seems like a good kid and he has plenty of tools, and I am sure that if AA and his team of scouts project him to be a can’t-miss, they won’t trade him. But so far he is not hitting for any more power than you would expect at Vegas, and he certainly isn’t MLB-ready. JJ may have an injury history but he’s a front-line starter who is very, very good. Maybe not Greinke-good but also with another year of control. He’s exactly the kind of player you bring in and build around. If Gose is part of the price, especially if he’s the centerpiece, you do that trade every time.

  44. Haven’t the Jays/Rogers already proven pretty convincingly that they’re too cheap to pursue anybody who makes over the baseball equivalent of minimum wage? They like to pretend they’re in on the action for difference makers (eg. see Beltran, Cespedes, Darvish etc.) but they haven’t signed anyone who makes real money. I doubt they’d be willing to pay anyone more than they’re paying Bautista and /or Encarnacion, both of whom are bargains at their prices. Ramirez for a Nate Eovaldi type prospect would have been possible financial disaster but could have made the team a lot more imposing offensively, especially if Ramirez could shift to second base and return to form like Rasmus did after he was traded to us. Teams that are serious about winning are willing to take those kinds of chances; the jays aren’t. All this talk about Reyes, Upton etc. is just wishful thinking on the part of the fans. I’m a Jays fan myself but Rogers sucks and if the jays are going to win, it’s going to be in spite of the ownership and through the drafting of minor leaguers. I feel like switching from Rogers to Bell just because I’m so sick of their cheapness. Signing Happ was just a bad joke and a pr move–it had little to do with making the team better but was simply intended to create the appearance that the Jays were willing to compete: they aren’t competing and trading two second rounders/sandwich picks was way too much for that non-factor of a pitcher. AA is a good gm but people need to start boycotting Rogers imo until they start spending a few of the millions they’re making off all of us. The Jays are about as imposing as the Leafs and my Winnipeg Jets until that happens. Switch to Bell or strike a blow for freedom by getting Directv or Dishnet from the States (and yes I know its not legal but don’t care anymore). Go Jays! Trade Rogers!

  45. Get Headley from SD and use him as the centrepiece. Miami would love to have him, I bet.

  46. To me gose is almost a must trade with his value where it is. Rasmus will be the full time cf next year, by the end of next season marisnick will be where gose is right now(except with a hit tool). Since gose will just be repeating aaa I don’t see his value going up next year, and his double redundent

  47. What about wade davis from tb, cheap and controllable

  48. They won’t, they’re not interested in taking back salarie, they gave up Musgrove for Houston to take back Corderos contract. Johnson to rich for their blood. Even no they are worth more than The Reds, they don’t spend like them, they could ahve had Hanley Rameriez for nothing but money.

    Rogers crying poor again, this time I believe it, if they make no free agent offer to a SP pitcher this offseason a Grenike, or even an edwin Jackson. If they make no free agent signing this offseason then they are only ever going to operate a payroll under 90 million, this team needs to get better and they have the same problems as last year need good SP and SP depth.

  49. This whole Escobar vs. Hech debate is a wonderful academic exercise, but has absolutely no bearing on the merits of a potential trade. The question isn’t whether the Jays are better off with Yunel than Hech, because that assumes Yunel doesn’t bring any kind of return. The question should be whether Hech PLUS Johnson makes the Jays more competitive than they are with Yunel’s admittedly better bat.

    I say it’s a no brainer. Better pitching means they won’t have to score 20 runs to win every game which makes losing a bit of offense easier to take. I’m sure Hech’s D and Johnson’s pitching will save more runs than the loss of Yunel’s bat will cost.

    Don’t forget that Yunel is a big body for a shortstop, the type that is likely to start declining sometime within his current contract. Good luck getting any kind of return then.

    Also, Hech’s contract means that they’ve been burning options on him the whole time he’s been in the minors, which means he needs to be up soon or they risk losing him to waivers. There’s really no value to keep Yunel with Hech waiting in the wings.

    As for other prospects to be included, I wouldn’t shed any tears over Gose. I suspect he’ll be a fine player, but feel he has more value as a high upside prospect than he will as a big leaguer.

    I just couldn’t take the asinine defenses of Escobar any more because they’re missing more than half the picture.

    • If Yunel were hitting like, say, Adam Lind from April-June I would be with you, but he has plus value at SS and is at a low in his value. Hechevarria is an unknown and he has not seen one MLB pitcher in his lifetime, unless he’s faced someone on a rehab assignment.

      You may be right that Hech + Johnson outweighs Escobar w/o JJ, but it’s still lunacy to bet on Hechevarria stepping up and excelling, and you know as well as I do that John Farrell will trot out Omar V until he’s not allowed to, if Escobar departs.

      • Well if he were hitting like Lind in from April-June teams wouldn’t take him for free so we wouldn’t be having this discussion ;) Of course at least Escobar would have defensive value.

        I’m not talking about him excelling, at least not with the bat. I don’t think he has to. It’d be great, but I think that even if he comes up and hits exactly how we can reasonably expect him to hit (not very well) his glove + JJ’s pitching > Escobar’s offense. We can presumably call the defense a wash, so that’s basically the equation we’re looking at.

    • Re: Also, Hech’s contract means that they’ve been burning options on him the whole time he’s been in the minors, which means he needs to be up soon or they risk losing him to waivers. There’s really no value to keep Yunel with Hech waiting in the wings.

      I am fairly certain that this is not true. He has not played in the majors, and so his service clock has not started clicking. He has the same rights as other minor league players, however is getting paid his signing bonus over 4 years, rather than all at once.

  50. I have no problem trading Yunel. Just think trading any of our prospects for 29 year old pitchers with 1 year of control is basically retarded. The JA Happ trade was shit too.

    • Right on with the one year comment, but Happ will be ok.

    • Well seeing as how you can’t get draft pick compensation for rentals walking any more it’s not really the worst situation. If he doesn’t help them compete next year you can deal him then, and if he does and he walks as a FA after the season there’s at least the draft pick compensation. Not to mention he might pitch great and earn an extension, but hopefully by then a couple of minor league arms are knocking on the door.

      Anyways, as I’ve mentioned above I’d rather headline the deal with Escobar than have it made up entirely of prospects, but if the cost is much less crippling I don’t have a huge problem with only having one more year of control.

  51. None of these names (JJ, Hanley,etc) mentioned in all the trade rumors involving the Marlins and Jays the last few days are what AA goes after. He’s not going to give up premium prospects for players with few years of control left and/or expensive salaries. Think more Latos than JJ.

  52. what happens when all their pitching staff is healthy, and they have 7 legit starters. yes you cant have enough pitching, but they will sure ruffle a few blue jay feathers

    • You trade someone and get other pieces.

      Besides if there’s anything we can count on with 100% certainty it’s that starting pitchers will always remain healthy for 162 games . Don’t quite know who you think the 7 legit starters would be exactly anyways…

      Either way it’s a pretty phenomenal problem to have so… What was your point again?

  53. The jays should use their farm system smartly to improve for this year and next without breaking the bank

  54. I have no problem dealing Escobar, as I feel his bat is on the decline, and he seems to be one of “those” guys, who kinda lose interest and drive relatively quickly. Gose is expendable to me too, but I just don’t know Johnson will sign again with us. If we had that guarantee I make the deal.

    Also, my new thing on here is to point out in every single comment I make how bad Kelly Johnson is; I get a sick, angry feeling in my stomach every time I see him come to the plate, and that needs to be seen to.

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