Them too? Seriously?

So that was a hell of a game last night, eh? Or… a game, at least. Or… something. Not that I watched it, or anything, but I did catch the end via Twitter while coming up for air after a night in Montreal’s absurdly sweaty bars– which isn’t to say that Toronto shouldn’t absolutely strive to have a place like L’Esco, or that more bars shouldn’t adopt their policy of giving bands playing a liberal amount of free drinks, then charging them staff prices once they’re past the allotment of freebies, it’s just… holy sauna. And I also caught the accompanying post-game roster moves and marvelling at Aaron Loup actually taking an at-bat.

Word now, via a tweet from Barry Davis of Sportsnet, that Brett Lawrie and Colby Rasmus are not seriously injured, but still sore, which necessitated the call to the minors for Adeiny Hechavarria… to play third base– a position he hasn’t played in a game one single time since coming to the Jays’ organization in 2010. But who’s counting! And who’s counting his platoon splits either! (.736 OPS against right-handers, .954 against lefties).

No, seriously, who cares? Would you rather see Chris Woodward get the call?

Meanwhile, Andrew Carpenter– the bad carpenter, not David, who was acquired from the Astros along with JA Happ– was designated for assignment, Jesse Chavez was recalled, and Brett Cecil was sent to Las Vegas. He’ll join the rotation there, but after John Farrell’s bang-the-fuck-on comments yesterday that his long-term future may be as a lefty specialist out of the bullpen, one wonders if maybe we’ve seen his last turn as a member of the Jays’ rotation. Y’know, unless someone else goes down with injury, which… at this rate, that’s entirely possible.

Ugh.

Happ joins the rotation in Cecil’s place, and will start on Thursday in Tampa, according to another tweet from Davis.

And in another cable on the Rogers-owned Jays from Davis of the Rogers-owned Sportsnet, we have Saturday afternoon’s lineup. Those of you who are either pregnant or afflicted with a heart condition may want to avert your eyes…

Y. Escobar SS
K. Johnson 2B
E. Encarnacion DH
D. Cooper 1B
R. Davis LF
Y. Gomes C
M. Sierra RF
A. Gose CF
A. Hechavarria 3B

R. Romero LHP

2012, you guys!!!!!!

Comments (686)

  1. That lineup would tear it up in A-ball.

  2. *sigh*

  3. Las Vegas 51′s Opening Day roster:
    Gose
    Hechavarria
    Snider
    D’Arnaud
    Cooper
    Sierra
    Nanita
    Gomes
    McCoy

    So keeping in mind that D’Arnaud would be playing for JPA if he wasn’t injured, we’d be fielding two-third’s of our AAA lineup. Ignore the Snider trade and it’d be 7 of 9.

    If only they had gone out and got another starting pitcher, right?

  4. oh lord . . . that lineup.

  5. eeeeewwwww! That lineup is gross!

  6. Um….. cue the angry comments…

  7. Morrow’s on track….

    • Stoeten performing at a bar called “L’escobar”. That’s very funny & with a name tied to a member of the Jays.

      Tonight will he be on “Laurier”/Lawrie” street.??

      It’s good to see so many Vegas players in Oakland.

      Why is Jesse Chavez here? He looks like he overmatched .

      Why not put Lawrie in the bullpen as a lefty specialist to back up Oliver?

      • I should have said Cecil in the bullpen as a lefty specialist.

        Too much alcohol last night watching that 15 inning game.

    • For what???

  8. To the rational fans with positive support for our team; THANK YOU!
    For all the negative whiners; please read objectively without the emotional and irrationality that comes with fanaticism. Constructive criticism and debate is fine, but your whines are embarrassing to us understanding fans. There’s a reason we’re mocked and perceived by other cities as lacking baseball knowledge. It’s because of YOU!
    These emotional cries to win now and how AA sucks because he didn’t plug the holes in one offseason make you sound like unknowledgeable puck heads.

    WHINERS ARGUMENTS:

    1. “THE JAYS FARM SYSTEM IS ALL HYPE. WHO CARES THAT LANSING AND NEW HAMPSHIRE HAVE GOOD TEAMS. IT’S THE MAJORS THAT COUNTS! WHAT PLAYERS HAS AA DEVELOPED THAT CONTRIBUTE? WAHHH”
    Do people forget how terrible we were when he came here? This is why we love Snider. He was the only minor leaguer we knew, because JP DESTROYED our minor league system. During his reign you couldn’t name another minor leaguer besides Snydes. (OK, maybe Russ Addams and that speaks volumes).
    The incredible draft signings and international free agents by AA should take a MINIMUM of 4-7 years to develop PROPERLY. This isn’t hockey. It takes ball players years longer to develop. These “win now” cries trying to pressure the Jays will hasten their development and hurt our team.
    I’m worried Gose, Hech, Hutch and Alvarez were rushed. You bitch how we ruined Snider, yet your impatience, and of course injuries, is pressuring AA to do the same to these youngsters. It hasn’t even been 4 years since AA’s first draft. And that first one was done before he had time to rebuild the decimated scouting department.
    AA restocked the system moving us to a ranking of second from dead last and the way he did it is the envy of the league. We need to wait for these guys to develop. Suck it up.

    2. “BUT WE NEED A SECOND BASEMAN AND STARTING PITCHING WAHHH! AA HASN’T ADDRESSED OUR NEEDS!!! WAHH!”
    Do they grow on trees? Will other teams simply give us these players because we ask nicely? Supply and demand. What team isn’t chasing starting pitching?
    You think picking up players is easy? This isn’t fantasy baseball where you can trick a fool into giving you what you need.
    Sadly, many players don’t want to sign in Toronto CURRENTLY unless we overspend to the point of handicapping the team with bad contracts.
    a) Jays play in Canada. There is a false sense among a lot of players that this means playing in Siberia. They think there’s no exposure or marketing opportunities here. They hate that they don’t get ESPN and our version is focused on hockey 24/7/365. They hate that our grocery stores don’t carry the products they’re used to. They think the taxes are too high and they even hate the coloured funny money. They really, really hate having to go through customs.
    Trying to convince them that their perception of Toronto is wrong is as hard as convincing whiners that AA is on the right path.
    b) We play in the AL East. Believe it or not, some players are scared to play in the East where it’s way more intense. Pitchers see how many games we play against New York, Boston and Tampa and say no way I want to face them 33% of the schedule. You don’t realize it because nobody would publicly admit it.
    c) You don’t realize how many good players have no movement clauses to Toronto. They don’t advertise this because it benefits neither player, MLB, nor any team to dish a city.
    d) More importantly, the Jays development plan is still a year or two away from making us an attractive destination. Once we’ve got a really solid core, THEN elite players will be willing to give Toronto a chance with reasonable market contracts. The word of our great city will spread and players will desire to play here and beat the damn Yankees. There is a great chance we can develop into a solid baseball city.

    Instead of bitching about what AA hasn’t done, praise him for what he has.

    3. “ROGERS IS CHEAP! WAHH!”
    This is tough to argue since I hate Rogers. With the 4th largest market there’s no excuse to not be in the top 10 spending teams. This just means what AA’s been able to do is incredible. However they shouldn’t spend for the sake of spending.
    I would not sign fat toad Fielder and a senior citizen Pujols to those contracts with this team. No fucking way would I give a pitcher more than 3 years (5 years if elite). Develop star players through the draft and smart trades then, if you’re one or two guys away from championship caliber (not playoff caliber), sign the top dog to put you over.
    The Free Agency timing should coincide with our internal player development just like the way Gillick did it. Other teams are scared about our future because we are developing like the Rays but with the resources to actually keep our stars.
    If we’re going to bitch about their cheap policies with FA’s, then I hesitantly give them credit for spending on the draft, international free agent signings, signing our own players, and rebuilding the scouting and development system. If they don’t start signing FA’s once the core and solid minor league backups are in place, then I will be leading the bitch brigade.

    4. “AA IS A JOKE BECAUSE HE TRADED NAPOLI FOR A BUM! WAHHH!”
    It was a fine trade at the time. Do you forget how we got Napoli? The Angels traded Napoli to us for Vernon Wells. If I told you we’d be able to get someone else to take Well’s contract in a trade you wouldn’t even care who we’re getting. You’d say make that trade! So why cry about losing a guy who didn’t even have a role on our team?
    If you think he should have gotten more you’re nuts. At that time Napoli was a backup catcher who couldn’t catch and we traded him for a potential closer/potential trade asset/potential compensation. The optics are bad because Napoli had a breakout year and the guy we got imploded. How’s Napoli even doing this year? Last I checked he was hovering around .233 with the same HR’s as JPA.
    Even more laughable about this dumb argument is that the hindsight isn’t even ready for full judgment. What if the compensation draft pick Gonzalez turns into an unlikely all-star?
    So what if Napoli turned into something nobody expected. AA said from the start he has to take risks to get high rewards. A hitter makes the hall of fame if he’s successful 30% of the time. Did you get 100% in school? My God, what rate of success does AA need for you to give him credit? Damn you if you won’t give him a pass on a bad trade or even several. He’s made 35 trades and you harp about this one? You are idiots if you believe a man can be perfect.

    5. “THE JAYS HAVEN’T WON IN 19 YEARS! WAHHH!”
    That timeline is NOT on THIS management watch.
    Yes it’s been 19 years, and that sucks, but it’s only been 3 years since AA came on with a solid plan. I believe in AA’s slow and steady approach to win the race.
    It took Hall of Fame GM Pat Gillick 8 years to make the playoffs and 15 years to bring home a championship. Gillick had it easy starting with a nothing expansion team. AA started with a worse team than that with those AWFUL contracts.
    If the baseball gods were to appease the fan base of all 30 teams, then each team should win ONCE in 30 years. We’ve won TWICE in 20. Stop bitching about 19 years. It’s embarrassing.
    Teams with longer droughts than the Jays: Twins (20 years) Reds (21), A’s (22), Dodgers (23), Mets (25) Royals (26), Tigers (27), Orioles (28), Pirates (32), Indians (63) and the lovable Cubs (103 years!)
    Before winning the Series in ’04 Boston went 86 years and the White Sox hadn’t won in 88 years.
    The Astros (1962), Rangers (1968), Padres (1969), Nationals/Expos (1969), Brewers (1969), Mariners (1977) Rockies (1993), Rays (1998), have NEVER WON.

    All these irrational Jays fans saying he’s failed because the team sucks now really don’t understand player development IN BASEBALL and what it takes to build a winning organization.
    At what point should management become accountable? You people would have fired HOF Gillick 5 years before his teams started to make the playoffs.

    There is a difference between assembling a patchwork playoff team and building a perennial championship contender. Let this management team execute the plan. Yes, the team today on TV right now are scrubs but what team in baseball could have sustained the injuries we’ve had and be near .500? We’re hurt more than the Phillies with a quarter of their payroll and look at them.

    Accept the Jays won’t win this year and probably not next year.
    If you watch the development of our system, players, and understand the plan, these are EXCITING times. Or you can sulk in ignorance caring only about the scores and standings.

    Don’t we all want to see not only a competitive team, but one with a legitimate chance of bringing Canada and Jays’ fans everywhere a sustainable Championship run? Have faith that AA, his excellent front office and the scouting department know a lot more about baseball than you or me combined.

    Smart Jays fans get it. They know the difference between JP’s 5 year plan/results and AA’s plan/results. Ignorant Jays fans are blowhards and their noise has the potential of destroying a solid plan with their pressure.
    Your impatience, irrational expectations, and demands will cause greater damage to our success than you realize. Slow and steady wins the race.

    Get excited Jays fans. Good times lie ahead.

    • way too long but excellent post.
      Almost worth the read

    • You and your stupid wait wait wait.
      Smoke some more buddy.
      I might die tomorrow. Today is all that matters and AA has done nothing!

    • Tl;dr

    • This Manager of Generals has had 3 whole years to build a team and look at this lineup!
      In baseball 3 years is an enternity!
      You’re the one who’s ignorant!

      • “This Manager of Generals has had 3 whole years to build a team and look at this lineup!”

        Can’t tell if you’re being serious or joking. But this team led MLB in run scored as recently as a week ago. And like 6/9 of the lineup is out with injuries. Dumb.

      • WEll that is a fake Oakville69 post.

    • Damn man. Do you have a life?
      How can you write this crap and actually believe it?
      Drink the kool aid

      • I’d ask you the same question. How can you repeatedly look past the evidence and continue to whine? Do you actually seriously believe the crap you write or are you just trolling for reactions?

    • “WHINERS ARGUMENTS:

      1. “THE JAYS FARM SYSTEM IS ALL HYPE. WHO CARES THAT LANSING AND NEW HAMPSHIRE HAVE GOOD TEAMS. IT’S THE MAJORS THAT COUNTS! WHAT PLAYERS HAS AA DEVELOPED THAT CONTRIBUTE? WAHHH”
      Do people forget how terrible we were when he came here? This is why we love Snider. He was the only minor leaguer we knew, because JP DESTROYED our minor league system. During his reign you couldn’t name another minor leaguer besides Snydes. (OK, maybe Russ Addams and that speaks volumes).”

      IN CAPS TO SEE THE RESPONSE.

      JP RICCARDI DRAFTED MANY OF THE PLAYERS ON THIS ROSTER, INCUDING ROMERO LIND HILL ETC. THE TRADE FOR BAUTISTA IS THE BEST FOR THE JAYS IN YEARS.

      AA’S PICKS ARE STILL YOUNG BUT GOSE IS NOT READY FOR THE MLB NEITHER IS SIERA,HECHEVERRIA.

      FOR ALL THE BASHING OF JP, AA HAS PRODUCED A TEAM WITH 85 WINS ( MOSTLY JP HOLDOVERS), & 81 WINS & WILL MOST CERTAINLY HIT ABOUT 75 WINS OR LESS IN YEAR 3. AA’S WIN TOTAL IS DECLINING EVERY YEAR.

      The incredible draft signings and international free agents by AA should take a MINIMUM of 4-7 years to develop PROPERLY. This isn’t hockey. It takes ball players years longer to develop. These “win now” cries trying to pressure the Jays will hasten their development and hurt our team.

      IT DOES NOT TAKE 7 YEARS FROM DRAFT TO REGULAR MLB PLAYER.

      I’m worried Gose, Hech, Hutch and Alvarez were rushed. You bitch how we ruined Snider, yet your impatience, and of course injuries, is pressuring AA to do the same to these youngsters. It hasn’t even been 4 years since AA’s first draft. And that first one was done before he had time to rebuild the decimated scouting department.

      AA IS MAKING THE SAME MISTAKE AS JP BY RUSHING TALENT BEFORE ITS READY BECAUSE HE REFUSES OR IS NOT ALLOWED TO ADD PAYROLL DOLLARS.

      NO DEPTH TO THIS TEAM.
      AA restocked the system moving us to a ranking of second from dead last and the way he did it is the envy of the league. We need to wait for these guys to develop. Suck it up.

      RANKING OF FARM SYSTEM WILL DROP SINCE THEY ARE PLAYING IN TORONTO.

      2. “BUT WE NEED A SECOND BASEMAN AND STARTING PITCHING WAHHH! AA HASN’T ADDRESSED OUR NEEDS!!! WAHH!”
      Do they grow on trees? Will other teams simply give us these players because we ask nicely? Supply and demand. What team isn’t chasing starting pitching?
      You think picking up players is easy? This isn’t fantasy baseball where you can trick a fool into giving you what you need.

      STARTING PITCHING IS AVAILABLE. JAYS TOO CHEAP TOO PAY FOR IT.

      A HIGH QUALITY PITCHER COSTS 10 MILION PER YEAR.
      Sadly, many players don’t want to sign in Toronto CURRENTLY unless we overspend to the point of handicapping the team with bad contracts.
      a) Jays play in Canada. There is a false sense among a lot of players that this means playing in Siberia. They think there’s no exposure or marketing opportunities here. They hate that they don’t get ESPN and our version is focused on hockey 24/7/365. They hate that our grocery stores don’t carry the products they’re used to. They think the taxes are too high and they even hate the coloured funny money. They really, really hate having to go through customs.
      Trying to convince them that their perception of Toronto is wrong is as hard as convincing whiners that AA is on the right path.

      THAT DIDN’T STOP THE JAYS IN LATE 80′S & EARLY 90′S FROM GETTING FREE AGENTS.

      b) We play in the AL East. Believe it or not, some players are scared to play in the East where it’s way more intense. Pitchers see how many games we play against New York, Boston and Tampa and say no way I want to face them 33% of the schedule. You don’t realize it because nobody would publicly admit it.

      OK THAT’S A FAIR POINT.
      c) You don’t realize how many good players have no movement clauses to Toronto. They don’t advertise this because it benefits neither player, MLB, nor any team to dish a city.
      d) More importantly, the Jays development plan is still a year or two away from making us an attractive destination. Once we’ve got a really solid core, THEN elite players will be willing to give Toronto a chance with reasonable market contracts. The word of our great city will spread and players will desire to play here and beat the damn Yankees. There is a great chance we can develop into a solid baseball city.

      Instead of bitching about what AA hasn’t done, praise him for what he has.

      3. “ROGERS IS CHEAP! WAHH!”
      This is tough to argue since I hate Rogers. With the 4th largest market there’s no excuse to not be in the top 10 spending teams. This just means what AA’s been able to do is incredible. However they shouldn’t spend for the sake of spending.

      AA SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET SOME DECENT PLAYERS AT FMV.

      A PAYROLL RANKED 22ND IN THE 4TH LARGEST MARKET IS UNACCEPTABLE.

      I would not sign fat toad Fielder and a senior citizen Pujols to those contracts with this team. No fucking way would I give a pitcher more than 3 years (5 years if elite). Develop star players through the draft and smart trades then, if you’re one or two guys away from championship caliber (not playoff caliber), sign the top dog to put you over.
      The Free Agency timing should coincide with our internal player development just like the way Gillick did it. Other teams are scared about our future because we are developing like the Rays but with the resources to actually keep our stars.
      If we’re going to bitch about their cheap policies with FA’s, then I hesitantly give them credit for spending on the draft, international free agent signings, signing our own players, and rebuilding the scouting and development system. If they don’t start signing FA’s once the core and solid minor league backups are in place, then I will be leading the bitch brigade.

      THE CORE NEVER GETS A CHANCE TO DEVELOP BECAUSE THEY TRADE DEPTH LIKE SNIDER FOR MIDDLE RELIEF PITCHERS WITH 8 SCREWS IN THEIR ELBOW.

      4. “AA IS A JOKE BECAUSE HE TRADED NAPOLI FOR A BUM! WAHHH!”
      It was a fine trade at the time. Do you forget how we got Napoli? The Angels traded Napoli to us for Vernon Wells. If I told you we’d be able to get someone else to take Well’s contract in a trade you wouldn’t even care who we’re getting. You’d say make that trade! So why cry about losing a guy who didn’t even have a role on our team?
      If you think he should have gotten more you’re nuts. At that time Napoli was a backup catcher who couldn’t catch and we traded him for a potential closer/potential trade asset/potential compensation. The optics are bad because Napoli had a breakout year and the guy we got imploded. How’s Napoli even doing this year? Last I checked he was hovering around .233 with the same HR’s as JPA.
      THE TEAM NEEDED NAPOLI BECAUSE JPA WAS A ROOKIE CATCHER & THEY HAD NO RELIABLE 1B.DH
      Even more laughable about this dumb argument is that the hindsight isn’t even ready for full judgment. What if the compensation draft pick Gonzalez turns into an unlikely all-star?
      So what if Napoli turned into something nobody expected. AA said from the start he has to take risks to get high rewards. A hitter makes the hall of fame if he’s successful 30% of the time. Did you get 100% in school? My God, what rate of success does AA need for you to give him credit? Damn you if you won’t give him a pass on a bad trade or even several. He’s made 35 trades and you harp about this one? You are idiots if you believe a man can be perfect.

      5. “THE JAYS HAVEN’T WON IN 19 YEARS! WAHHH!”
      That timeline is NOT on THIS management watch.
      Yes it’s been 19 years, and that sucks, but it’s only been 3 years since AA came on with a solid plan. I believe in AA’s slow and steady approach to win the race.
      It took Hall of Fame GM Pat Gillick 8 years to make the playoffs and 15 years to bring home a championship. Gillick had it easy starting with a nothing expansion team. AA started with a worse team than that with those AWFUL contracts.
      If the baseball gods were to appease the fan base of all 30 teams, then each team should win ONCE in 30 years. We’ve won TWICE in 20. Stop bitching about 19 years. It’s embarrassing.
      Teams with longer droughts than the Jays: Twins (20 years) Reds (21), A’s (22), Dodgers (23), Mets (25) Royals (26), Tigers (27), Orioles (28), Pirates (32), Indians (63) and the lovable Cubs (103 years!)
      Before winning the Series in ’04 Boston went 86 years and the White Sox hadn’t won in 88 years.
      The Astros (1962), Rangers (1968), Padres (1969), Nationals/Expos (1969), Brewers (1969), Mariners (1977) Rockies (1993), Rays (1998), have NEVER WON.

      FIRST STEP IS PLAYING COMPETITIVE BASEBALL IN SEPTEMBER. NOT ACCOMPLISHED SINCE 2000.

      JAYS NOWHERE NEAR CLOSE THIS YEAR WITH SECOND SPOT.
      WON’T COMPETE NEXT YEAR WITH CURRENT ROSTER EVEN IF HEALTHY.

      All these irrational Jays fans saying he’s failed because the team sucks now really don’t understand player development IN BASEBALL and what it takes to build a winning organization.
      At what point should management become accountable? You people would have fired HOF Gillick 5 years before his teams started to make the playoffs.

      There is a difference between assembling a patchwork playoff team and building a perennial championship contender. Let this management team execute the plan. Yes, the team today on TV right now are scrubs but what team in baseball could have sustained the injuries we’ve had and be near .500? We’re hurt more than the Phillies with a quarter of their payroll and look at them.

      PHILLIES WON WORLD SERIES IN 2008 & HAVE BEEN IN THE PLAYOFFS ON A REGULAR BASIS SINCE THEN.

      Accept the Jays won’t win this year and probably not next year.
      If you watch the development of our system, players, and understand the plan, these are EXCITING times. Or you can sulk in ignorance caring only about the scores and standings.

      Don’t we all want to see not only a competitive team, but one with a legitimate chance of bringing Canada and Jays’ fans everywhere a sustainable Championship run? Have faith that AA, his excellent front office and the scouting department know a lot more about baseball than you or me combined.

      SCOUTING DEPT ALLOWED AA TO SIGN SANTOS AS DAMAGED GOODS WITH 5 INNINGS PITCHED IN 2012 & BAD PERFORMANCE IN SEPT 2011.

      Smart Jays fans get it. They know the difference between JP’s 5 year plan/results and AA’s plan/results. Ignorant Jays fans are blowhards and their noise has the potential of destroying a solid plan with their pressure.

      AA HAS NO PLAN . TEAM IS WORSE OFF WITH NO LF BUT 2 MIDDLE RELIEVERS??

      KEY FOR AA IS O SIGN PLAYERS WHO DON’T HAVE EIGHT SCRWS HOLDING ELBOW TOGETHER. DELABAR WILL BE IN REHAB WITH DUSTIN MCGOWAN NEXT YEAR.

      BEESTON LIED TO THE FANS ABOUT PLAYOFFS IN THE NEXT 5 YEARS.
      Your impatience, irrational expectations, and demands will cause greater damage to our success than you realize. Slow and steady wins the race.

      Get excited Jays fans. Good times lie ahead.

      • Several of your rebutal points ignore some of the realities of baseball,but I can understand your frustration.

        • Yes Radar.

          The voice of reason!

          Let’s ignore the reality and then Oakville 69 makes 100% true points.

          • I see that you are posting in several different threads so its hard to keep track of your comments.

            The bottom line is that today’s lineup is filled with prospects who should not be on a major league team.

            Some of it is a result of injuries, & some of it because the current GM has traded away depth in the OF for some bullpen help.

            The current GM is in his 3rd season of roster management & realizes that his acquisition of aging relievers has not worked for the most part.

            Rauch,Gregg, Coco, Frank Francisco etc.

            Now he is using his prospects to rebuild the bullpen

            with Delabar ( 8 screws) & Lincoln.

            He also has Happ who will now be a starter & Lyon who is a free agent at the end of the year.

      • Was your goal to make ‘Long winded but sane Jays fan’s post look even smarter? If so, you succeeded.

        • NOT REALLY. THE JAYS APOLOGIST CROWD HAVE EGG ON THEIR FACES THIS WEEK.

          snider was mismanged by jp riccardi & cito.

          brought up before he was ready.

          now AA brings up Gose,hech, sierra , hutchison etc.

          they are weaker than snider’s first year umbers.

      • “It does not take 7 years from draft to regular MLB player.”
        But it does take 7 years from draft to crappy rookie to solid MLB starter.

        “Ranking of farm will drop because they are playing in Toronto.”
        Curiously, the only member of Toronto’s top 15 prospects playing in Toronto right now is Anthony Gose. Further, we added a ton this draft. I wouldn’t be surprised to see us become the number one overall farm this offseason.

        “A Payroll ranked 22nd in the 4th largest market is unacceptable.”
        But a payroll ranked 22nd for the team with the 25th largest attendance is acceptable.
        And even with your original point, you conveniently forget each of the three markets bigger than Toronto have two teams, which would make Toronto’s logical landing point at 7th. And in terms of “4th largest market,” Toronto is virtually tied with Dallas (Rangers) and Houston (Astros) in terms of market size.

        “First step is playing competitive baseball in September. Not accomplished since 2000.”
        Actually, not accomplished since 1993, to be honest. You can pretend we were close that year, but we weren’t really.
        And no, playing competitive baseball in September isn’t always a logical step towards contention. If you buy a bunch of old veterans in order to inflate September wins (cough, JPR, cough), you’ve approached contending in September without actually improving the club for the following season. You can’t just buy veterans, you have to position the club to a place where they’re going to grow and be better the following season. Not be a Philadelphia, on the downswing.
        This, by the way, counters your point regarding the declining win totals. Sure AA inherited an 87 win from Ricciardi. But there was no room for growth on that team. It depended on players like Aaron Hill and Adam Lind to be stars, and then they had career years and pushed themselves up to 87 wins. They weren’t going to get better, they were at their max. If Ricciardi had stayed on his win totals would be declining too.

        “Jays nowhere near close this year with second spot. Won’t compete next year even if healthy.”

        So what you’re telling me is rotational depth of Morrow, Romero, Hutchison, Drabek, Alvarez, Villanueva, Happ, Laffey, etc. isn’t good enough?
        Sure, I agree. HENCE WHY AA TRIED TO GET A SUPERSTAR STARTER AT THE DEADLINE. He failed, he ran out of time, but ultimately he realized we weren’t going anywhere this season anyways, so there was no reason to rush anything when he may as well wait until December.

        “Phillies won World Series in 2008 and have been in the playoffs on a regular basis since then.”
        And guess what, their time is up. Oh sure they might make a run next season, but their entire core is aging. Nearly everyone that does anything on that team is on the wrong side of 30. That Phillies team is just like the Jays teams of the mid-90s. They’re going to be lucky if their win declination is as little as the Jays has been the last two seasons.
        Notice the further proof of why win totals declining does not indicate incompetence on the GM’s part. He had a contending team, he thought they might be able to extend the championship window one more year, injuries proved him wrong, and now he’s blowing the whole damn team up.

        “AA Has No Plan.”
        Do you seriously believe the stuff you write? I mean, seriously?

        • @Name Change.
          Thanks for that. You would think that the number of times Oakville69 has been shot down, that he’d stop with the nonsense, but he just keeps coming back for more. People need to keep injecting smart rational comments here to combat the drivel.

          • I have not been shot down.

            The facts are the team has been hit by severe injuries.

            However, AA is doing damage to the team by trading the OF depth to fix the problem he created with poor bullpen signings. ( Cordero & Santos)

            The AA apologists have their lineup today. They have scored zero runs.

            AA’s farm system is here now ,so how is it doing against a weak offense.?

          • I think I should get some props.

            I have been writing her for three weeks
            You might know me as LONG WINDED BUT SANE JAYS FAN.
            If that’s not familiar, BRETT LAWRIES’ HELMET from last night.
            If that’s not familiar, then I wrote the FAKE OAKVILLE69.
            Soory everyone, but writing as a troll is so fun.
            Oh, if that doesn’t sound familiar I have about twenty different name changes.

            Oh, and yes I am LITTLE LOOPER.

        • “It does not take 7 years from draft to regular MLB player.”
          But it does take 7 years from draft to crappy rookie to solid MLB starter.

          IN CAPS,

          SO IT TAKES 7 YEARS TO FIND OUT IF THE THE 2010 DRAFT WILL BE A SUCCESS?

          WHY DO OTHER TEAMS DRAFT PLAYERS LIKE bRYCE HARPER OR STEVEN STRASBURG IF IT TAKES 7 YEARS.

          LAWRIE WAS NOT DRAFTED AT AGE 15.

          “Ranking of farm will drop because they are playing in Toronto.”
          Curiously, the only member of Toronto’s top 15 prospects playing in Toronto right now is Anthony Gose. Further, we added a ton this draft. I wouldn’t be surprised to see us become the number one overall farm this offseason.

          IF GOSE IS THE ONLY TOP 15, WHY IS HECH,SIERRA PLAYING HERE????

          “A Payroll ranked 22nd in the 4th largest market is unacceptable.”
          But a payroll ranked 22nd for the team with the 25th largest attendance is acceptable.

          ATTENDANCE IS NOT 25TH. TV RATINGS ARE PROBABLY TOP 5. ROGERS CAN ALLOCATE FMV OF BROADCAST TO JAYS.
          And even with your original point, you conveniently forget each of the three markets bigger than Toronto have two teams, which would make Toronto’s logical landing point at 7th. And in terms of “4th largest market,” Toronto is virtually tied with Dallas (Rangers) and Houston (Astros) in terms of market size.

          NO TORONTO WOULD BE THE TOP SINGLE MARKET SINCE 1 TEAM , METRO POPULATION 6 MILION.

          TV BROADCAST TO 34 MILLION INCLUDING FRENCH TV.

          “First step is playing competitive baseball in September. Not accomplished since 2000.”
          Actually, not accomplished since 1993, to be honest. You can pretend we were close that year, but we weren’t really.

          I AM BEING GENEROUS WITH 2000, BUT LOOKING AT NUMBERS THEY WERE WITHIN 1/2 GAME OF WILDCARD RACE IN LATE AUGUST 2000. GOOD ENOUGH.
          And no, playing competitive baseball in September isn’t always a logical step towards contention. If you buy a bunch of old veterans in order to inflate September wins (cough, JPR, cough), you’ve approached contending in September without actually improving the club for the following season. You can’t just buy veterans, you have to position the club to a place where they’re going to grow and be better the following season. Not be a Philadelphia, on the downswing.
          This, by the way, counters your point regarding the declining win totals. Sure AA inherited an 87 win from Ricciardi. But there was no room for growth on that team. It depended on players like Aaron Hill and Adam Lind to be stars, and then they had career years and pushed themselves up to 87 wins. They weren’t going to get better, they were at their max. If Ricciardi had stayed on his win totals would be declining too.

          NO JP RICCARDI PEAKED AT 87 WINS IN 2006.

          JAYS WITHOUT HALLADAY GOT 85 WINS WITH MINOR TINKERING BY AA IN FIRST YEAR. AS AA GETS MORE CONTROL TEAM WINS DECLINE.
          85 IN 2010 81 IN 2011 & LESS THAN 81 IN 2012.

          DON’T FORGET THEY PLAY MORE AL EAST TEAMS IN SEPTEMBER IN 2012 & WILL GET CRUSHED WITH AAA ROSTER & POOR MGMT.

          “Jays nowhere near close this year with second spot. Won’t compete next year even if healthy.”

          So what you’re telling me is rotational depth of Morrow, Romero, Hutchison, Drabek, Alvarez, Villanueva, Happ, Laffey, etc. isn’t good enough?

          ROMERO REGRESSED IN 2012. HE IS A 5TH STARTER. WILL HE RECOVER?

          DOES MORROW RECOVER?

          DRABEK NOT PITCHING TILL 2014.

          OTHERS ARE 4TH & 5TH STARTERS.

          Sure, I agree. HENCE WHY AA TRIED TO GET A SUPERSTAR STARTER AT THE DEADLINE. He failed, he ran out of time, but ultimately he realized we weren’t going anywhere this season anyways, so there was no reason to rush anything when he may as well wait until December.

          THIS IS PR DAMAGE CONTROL. AA HAD NO INTENTION OF GIVING UP PROSPECTS OR PAYING ADDITIONAL PAYROLL AT TRADE DEADLINE.

          DURING WINTER MEETINGS AA WAS AFRAID TO ADD PAYROLL & SAID MID SEASON TRADES WOULD BE THE TARGET.

          AA ENDS UP WITH 2 MIDDLE RELIEVERS & DECIMATES LF DEPTH LEAVING RAJAI DAVIS BUMBLING AROUND THE FIELDER. HE SHOUD HAVE A MINING HELMET TO FIND BALLS HE LOSES IN THE LIGHTS. RAJAI DAVIS IS A JOKE IN LF. HE MUST HAVE BEEN TRAINED BY COREY PATTERSON.

          “Phillies won World Series in 2008 and have been in the playoffs on a regular basis since then.”
          And guess what, their time is up. Oh sure they might make a run next season, but their entire core is aging.

          JAYS REFUSE TO BE COMPETIVE PAST AUGUST 1.

          THEY SHOULD NOT GIVE LESSONS TO REAL BASEBALL TEAMS. YES PHILLY IS ON THE DOWNSIDE, BUT HAYS HAVE NEVER HAD UPSIDE.

          Nearly everyone that does anything on that team is on the wrong side of 30. That Phillies team is just like the Jays teams of the mid-90s. They’re going to be lucky if their win declination is as little as the Jays has been the last two seasons.
          Notice the further proof of why win totals declining does not indicate incompetence on the GM’s part. He had a contending team, he thought they might be able to extend the championship window one more year, injuries proved him wrong, and now he’s blowing the whole damn team up.

          “AA Has No Plan.”
          Do you seriously believe the stuff you write? I mean, seriously?

          AA IS A HYPOCRITE BECAUSE HIS PLAN OF ACUIRING HANGE OF SCENERY CANDIDATES LIKE MORROW,ESCOBAR & RASMUS WORKED BUT NOW HE GETS RID OF SNIDER 7 THAMES FOR MIDDLE RELIEVERS WHO ARE MORE USEFUL TO A PLAYOFF TEAM NOT A SUB 500 TEAM.

          JAYS RELIEVERS ARE BEING WASTED ON MOP UP DUTY.

          • You’ve got to be fucking joking me. Seriously?

            Sigh.

            In short:

            The Trouts and Harpers of the world are the exception, not the rule. Even Lawrie’s been terrible with the bat this year. So yes, you have to wait seven years to evaluate properly. You bring up how the team is being carried by Ricciardi’s pickups. IF THEY WERE SO GOOD AFTER THREE YEARS, WHY DID HE GET FIRED? Oh wait, that’s right, they weren’t. And, for the record, Ricciardi’s contribution to this team is Bautista, Romero, Alvarez, Cecil and Lind. Wow what an awesome fucking contribution to this team!

            “IF GOSE IS THE ONLY TOP 15, WHY IS HECH,SIERRA PLAYING HERE????”
            Because AA’s NOT rushing the important players. He’s letting the non-important ones come up here, mostly. The ones you said he was rushing just a post ago. Hech is probably semi-important, but by no means was he a top prospect.

            Last season attendance was 25th, and the average broadcast was 500,000 viewers. Don’t even think about trying to argue 500,000 viewers is “5th in all of baseball.” 500,000 viewers would be pathetic for the CW, forget ESPN or any of the regional networks. Yes, it’s true, THIS SEASON they’re up. All the way up to 20th in attendance. And Rogers will adjust the budget at the end of the season accordingly.

            No, Toronto would not be the top single market, because New York City and Los Angeles are more than double Toronto’s metro size. NYC has 22 million people. 1/2 of that is 11 million. Still way bigger than Toronto’s six million. Oh and by the way, Dallas has 6.5 million, Houston 6.1 million, Philadelphia 5.9 million and a bunch of others in the 5.5 million range. Quite competitive with Toronto’s census figures of 5.5 million, no? (Admittedly, the census was stupid not to include Oshawa and Hamilton as Toronto’s metro area, and thus it ought to be 6.6 million. But point being they’re all pretty close.)

            The rest of your crap isn’t even worth answering. It’s just people showing you evidence, and you replying “it doesn’t exist.” You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink; and you can teach a student that the earth orbits the sun, but you can’t make him believe it.

        • Here is my reply in CAPS

          “It does not take 7 years from draft to regular MLB player.”
          But it does take 7 years from draft to crappy rookie to solid MLB starter.

          IT DEPENDS ON DEFINITION OF SOLID MLB STARTER.

          IF YOU DRAFT A COLLEGE ARM IT SHOULD TAKE LESS TIME.

          HIGH SCHOOL ARMS TAKE LONGER.

          BY AGE 25 YOU SHOULD BE A MLB STARTER

          “Ranking of farm will drop because they are playing in Toronto.”
          Curiously, the only member of Toronto’s top 15 prospects playing in Toronto right now is Anthony Gose. Further, we added a ton this draft. I wouldn’t be surprised to see us become the number one overall farm this offseason.

          HECH,SIERRA,GOSE HUTCH WERE ALL TOP 15 IN SPRING TRAINING

          “A Payroll ranked 22nd in the 4th largest market is unacceptable.”
          But a payroll ranked 22nd for the team with the 25th largest attendance is acceptable.
          And even with your original point, you conveniently forget each of the three markets bigger than Toronto have two teams, which would make Toronto’s logical landing point at 7th.

          YOUR ANALYSIS IS FLAWED. TORONTO HAS ONE TEAM TO DRAW FANS FROM.

          TV RIGHTS TO 34 MILLION PEOPLE WHICH IS LARGER THAN YANKEES OR DODGERS.

          FAN BASE WITHIN DRIVING DISTANCE 6 MILLION.

          And in terms of “4th largest market,” Toronto is virtually tied with Dallas (Rangers) and Houston (Astros) in terms of market size.

          “First step is playing competitive baseball in September. Not accomplished since 2000.”
          Actually, not accomplished since 1993, to be honest. You can pretend we were close that year, but we weren’t really.

          THE TEAM WAS .5 GAMES OUT OF WILDCARD ON AUGUST 28 2000. THAT COUNTS.
          And no, playing competitive baseball in September isn’t always a logical step towards contention. If you buy a bunch of old veterans in order to inflate September wins (cough, JPR, cough), you’ve approached contending in September without actually improving the club for the following season.

          DID JP RICCARDI STACK THE TEAM WITH VETERAN ACQUISITIONS IN AUGUST 2000 FOR A PLAYOFF PUSH???

          You can’t just buy veterans, you have to position the club to a place where they’re going to grow and be better the following season. Not be a Philadelphia, on the downswing.
          This, by the way, counters your point regarding the declining win totals. Sure AA inherited an 87 win from Ricciardi. But there was no room for growth on that team. It depended on players like Aaron Hill and Adam Lind to be stars, and then they had career years and pushed themselves up to 87 wins.

          HILL & LIND CAREER YEARS IN 2009 LED TO 75 WINS IN 2009.

          They weren’t going to get better, they were at their max. If Ricciardi had stayed on his win totals would be declining too.

          “Jays nowhere near close this year with second spot. Won’t compete next year even if healthy.”

          So what you’re telling me is rotational depth of Morrow, Romero, Hutchison, Drabek, Alvarez, Villanueva, Happ, Laffey, etc. isn’t good enough?

          NO BECAUSE DRABEK WILL NOT PITCH IN 2013.

          NOT SURE ABOUT HUTCH.

          ROMERO SHOULD BE BETTER. MORROW IS RECOVERING.

          AGREE THAT ALL HEALTHY SHOULD BE BETTER AS PITCHING ERA DECLINES , BUT TEAM LOSS IN LF,2B,DH SHOULD MAKE IT WEAKER ON OFFENCE WITHOUT FREE AGENT OR TRADE SIGNING.

          Sure, I agree. HENCE WHY AA TRIED TO GET A SUPERSTAR STARTER AT THE DEADLINE. He failed, he ran out of time, but ultimately he realized we weren’t going anywhere this season anyways, so there was no reason to rush anything when he may as well wait until December.
          HAHA!. AA SAYS THAT AT EVERY DEADLINE.
          ROGERS WON’T LET HIM SPEND & HE IS UNABLE/UNWILLING TO TRADE PROSPECTS FOR MLB HELP.

          “Phillies won World Series in 2008 and have been in the playoffs on a regular basis since then.”
          And guess what, their time is up. Oh sure they might make a run next season, but their entire core is aging. Nearly everyone that does anything on that team is on the wrong side of 30. That Phillies team is just like the Jays teams of the mid-90s. They’re going to be lucky if their win declination is as little as the Jays has been the last two seasons.

          AGREE THAT PHILLIES ARE IN DECLINE UT THEY HAD 5 PLAYOFF APPEARANCES. JAYS HAVE ZERO SINCE 1993.
          Notice the further proof of why win totals declining does not indicate incompetence on the GM’s part. He had a contending team, he thought they might be able to extend the championship window one more year, injuries proved him wrong, and now he’s blowing the whole damn team up.

          “AA Has No Plan.”
          Do you seriously believe the stuff you write? I mean, seriously?

          NO PLAN TO COMPETE FOR PLAYOFF SPOT IN 2013.

          ORIGINAL PLAN WAS TO ACQUIRE DISGRUNTLED PLAYERS FROM OTHER TEAMS. ESCOBAR,MORROW. LAWRIE RASMUS.

          NOW HE SENDS SNIDER & THAMES FOR MIDDLE RELIEVERS.

          THAT IS BAD ASSET MANAGEMENT.

          • @Oakville
            1) 4-7 years is the average. Not many players get drafted at 18 and are regulars at 22. Most players come up at 25ish. I think Utley and Howard were 27. So yes the average is 4-7 and closer to the 7 side when you draft highschool players like AA has decided to do. So you are wrong on this count. Sorry dude facts are facts and the fact that you are ignoring them and stating outliers does not strengthen your case.

            2) Sierra was never top 15 and Hech struggled to crack top 15 depending on your source. Gose and Hutch were, on all lists. So what is your point?

            3) As for your statistics on the Toronto area, you do realize that in cities in the states baseball is king thus 50% of the population is avid supporters. In Toronto the Jays are lucky to get 15%. There is your difference. Toronto is Hockey first, Basketball, and probably soccer ranks above the Jays on the pecking order. As for stating Canada, out west the Mariners are probably the most popular team and east coast has a huge Red Sox following. Not to mention again that baseball isn’t very popular in Canada. So actually the Jays would probably figure in the bottom 3rd of market share. Sorry to burst your bubble.

            4) The Jays loss at LF/DH/2B? Is this a joke? Lind is still here, and so is EE. So DH is the same. LF was manned by a dismal Thames (Rajai Davis was better) and Snider was my favourite but hardly irreplacable. Not to mention these are easy positions to fill as they require little skill on the defensive side.If those are the teams issues they are actually doing really well.

            5) As for your plan, have you ever heard that plans can have different phases? Phase one acquire as much young talent as possible. That means signing useless releivers let them walk and get extra draft picks. Under all counts this was a successful phase. Phase 2: Start filling holes in the system (weakness Bullpen, depth LF ie trade LF for Bullpen) and this is probably the phase the Jays are still on. Phase 3 acquire elite talent (by spending money and prospect) to push team over the top. this will probably occur in the offseason and next year. You aren’t very experienced in drafting plans are you? Just because your pea sized brain can’t understand the plan doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

            Sorry Oakville but I think you should spend a little more time learning facts to support your argument rather then your opinions. Because the starting your argument with an internal assumption, ie: AA doesn’t have a plan, prospects should be up in a year, Toronto is a huge market for baseball etc) is a poor way to back up your statement.

            As for the farm system you should never be allowed to comment on it again, unless you actually do research on it. Here is a starting point to gain knowledge: ESPN (Keih Law) Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus, Minorleagueball.com and even Fangraphs. Read the organizational rankings and hear what th experts think of the system. Only then should you be allowed to even think about another comment about the system.

          • @ Stanley’s Cup

            Nice post.
            I’m too lazy to respond to Oakville,plus with my typing skills it woulda taken 5 hours.

        • Per Oakville
          “The current GM is in his 3rd season of roster management & realizes that his acquisition of aging relievers has not worked for the most part.

          Rauch,Gregg, Coco, Frank Francisco etc.”

          So you’re saying that this GM is smart enough to change strategies as the times change?
          Sounds smart to me.
          He got aging relievers to then let them leave so we could get draft picks under the old CBA. He did it to stock up the minor league system. It was genius.

          That strategy no longer applies now that you no longer get those valuable picks. Now the best strategy, and most value, is to get young, controlable relievers.
          He is smart and games the system. Appreciate.

      • @Oakville

        Like Radar, I get why you’re frustrated but…

        - the fact that JP signed many of the playoffs on this roster doesn’t change the fact that this team was fucked after 09. No farm system. Old, overpaid team. The need to trade Halladay. Organizationally, it’s been an impressive turnaround for three years.

        - “JAYS NOWHERE NEAR CLOSE THIS YEAR WITH SECOND SPOT.
        WON’T COMPETE NEXT YEAR WITH CURRENT ROSTER EVEN IF HEALTHY.”

        Before this 6 game slide the Jays were right there at the beginning of August. Even now they’re what… 6 out? With a AAA lineup and pitching staff due to injuries? Absolutely no reason to think this team can’t push for the second WC next year with a couple additions.

        There’ s frustrated, and then there’s just being irrationally negative.

        • @Oakville

          Like Radar, I get why you’re frustrated but…

          - the fact that JP signed many of the playoffs on this roster doesn’t change the fact that this team was fucked after 09. No farm system. Old, overpaid team. The need to trade Halladay. Organizationally, it’s been an impressive turnaround for three years.

          OK. I AGREE THAT AA HAS REBUILT THE FARM.

          CAN THE FARM HELP IN 2013?? PROBALY NOT, ESPECIALLY IF 4 OF THEM SHOW UP ON THE ROSTER AT THE SAME TIME.

          - “JAYS NOWHERE NEAR CLOSE THIS YEAR WITH SECOND SPOT.
          WON’T COMPETE NEXT YEAR WITH CURRENT ROSTER EVEN IF HEALTHY.”

          Before this 6 game slide the Jays were right there at the beginning of August. Even now they’re what… 6 out? With a AAA lineup and pitching staff due to injuries? Absolutely no reason to think this team can’t push for the second WC next year with a couple additions.

          MAYBE YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUTTHAT. BUT I EXPECT YANKEES & RED SOX TO REBUILD QUICKLY.

          WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BALTIMORE NOW???

          JAYS HAVE TO FIGHT TO STAY OUT OF LAST PLACE.

          There’ s frustrated, and then there’s just being irrationally negative.

          NEGATIVE BECAUSE AA TRADED 2 LF FOR 2 MIDDLE RELIEVERS.

          AA SHOULD NOT TRADE FOR PITCHERS WITH SCREWS IN ELBOWS. RULE #1 IN GM MANUAL.

          • D’Arnaud is considered ready next year, Lawrie, Hutchinson, Alvarez, Cecil, Loup, Janssen all came from the farm and they are helping. Not to mention Hech will probably take over 2B or SS next year. So yes the farm will help in 2013.

            As for saying the Jays can’t compete next year. Think if Romero was his version in 2011 not this version of 2012. That alone would have saved the pen from over use, lowered ERA for the team, and protected middle relievers (the worst pitchers) from being exposed.Then when Alvarez+ Hutch struggle they can be pulled from the game rather then forced to pitch 1-2 more innings because the pen needs rest. That in itself could have led to 4-5 more wins. Leaving the Jays 1-2 games back. Now with a healthy Morrow, Santos, Bautista, JPA, Hutch, they could be tied for or leading the wildcard race.

            AA traded a 4th LF and organizational LF (5th at best with no D) for a 7th/8th inning reliever and middle relief. Not the greatest trades but why not move depth for need when you have Gose/Sierra/Marisnik etc. Heck Jack Cust is probably better then Thames and maybe Snider. Cust has a 374 career obp playing in Oakland and Seattle. The Jays really weren’t losing a lot.

          • Oakville,
            I love that you’re a passionate fan who just wants to win. I applaud that. You’re just a bit misguided because you don’t seem to understand player development and the lifecycle of an organization. You’re not realistic about where the Jays are in the Lifecycle.

            Under AA we are moving out of the trough and are well into the accumulation young talent phase. We’re almost 3/4 up this hill which is the exciting time.
            We are so close that it is tempting to say we’re ready to peak, but peak too soon and you run out of steam.
            Once we build the solid foundation where our minor leagues is stocked and able to provide good backups who are ML ready to step in for injuries, then we can move to the later stage of accumulation cycle which is spending money on FA’s and finding solid vets to plug in holes to complement our solid foundation. This is when we reach the start of peak cycle.

            PEAK, (playoffs and world series),
            DECLINE (AGING/INJURIES),
            SELL (time to restock farm system trade your vets to contenders for potential)
            TROUGH, No hope, system bare, stars traded/aged/hurt
            ACCUMULATION (drafting and International signing),
            BUY (look for outside young potential talent with trades even if it means trading lesser potentials),
            THIS IS BASICALLY WHERE WE ARE!!!!!
            COMPLIMENT foundation BY FILLING HOLES, BUY (with free agency)
            BUY (new trade formula: get older/reliable vets who’ve realized their potential by trading our potentials who are redundant)
            PEAK. (playoffs and championship runs!)
            BUY, (to get to the very top)
            DECLINE AGAIN….. lifecycle of a team.

            You think all teams act like they are in the peak phase and watching wins is the measure of success. We are not at the stage when we should be focusing on wins.

            Wins, while they feel good and make me happy, they really only matter when you get closer to the peak phase. We aren’t as close as you think, but we really aren’t that far now thanks to AA.
            We want to build solidly so that we get to spend more time at the peak.
            Slow and steady wins the race.

      • MY REPLY TO OAKVILLE69 from her dumbest argument yet. , let me correct that. To the even dumber but legitimately REAL Oakville69.
        I am the fake Oakville69. Your real reply, is even dumber than my fake post.

        This is what she wrote, in capital letters for all of us to see, at exactly 8/04/12 @ 301 pm EDT:

        I couldn’t even get past your first statement where you lied about how JP drafted players on THIS roster.
        Hill is not on this roster. Would you really be proud of taking credit for drafting Lind?

        You are ignorant. I need not read further.

    • That’s one hell of a strawman you’ve concocted.

    • I didn’t actually read it because who has time for that dissertation on AA apologism.

    • I stopped reading halfway through, but what I read was right on.

    • Totally agree with AA’s post

    • Man, I have a hard disagreeing with anything you said, but holy shit is that post condescending and arrogant. People are fans, and they’re entitled to be fans. There’s no stipulation requiring fans to be rational. Would it be nice? Well, yeah, I mean, obviously, but expecting it is a little naive.

    • Good points but one thing I will point out is the Jays have #1 largest market in baseball with only one team and they have the largest market in pro sports as they have a whole country to themselves ! What people fail to realize is that their are fans buying jerseys , hats and tickets all across Canada ! Nevermind the tv revenue that Rogers is getting with their monopoly on the jays via sportsnet , there are also mobile and Internet viewers that watch the jays across the country on Rogers cell phones and on home computers with the their Rogers bundles. I am in Alberta and have bought 5 jerseys now and half a dozen different hats and if I could afford it I would fly to Toronto and watch a game live. Instead I watch on my telus cable and on my jailbroke telus iPhone lol

  9. Finally!
    Somebody around here who gets it!

  10. You’re stupid

  11. Yunel Escoar debuted at 3B for Atlanta as well. Didn’t take over full time at SS until his second season.

  12. AA has been forced to make so many moves over the past month, he has slotted himself in for Tommy John this offseason

  13. Romero sacks up and pitches a gem today, book it

    • JAYS LOSE 2-0. RAJAI DAVIS RUNS BACKWADS & INJURES ESCOBAR.

      Watching this team is becoming comic relief.

      I want to see if Zaun has sobered up based on last night’s show.

      • Why watch then?

        • Zaun is sober today & said that the jays are farther away on paper from being competitive than they were in April.

          free agent signings not as valuable this offseason since greinke & hamilton won’t come to Toront.

          Marcum might be the jays best shot, even though injury risk is higher than average.

          • The fact that you consider Zaun is a sage is another reason you’re a fucking idiot.

          • Really? The jays are further away today from contending than they were in April when everybody was healthy.
            That is some good insight.

  14. we’ve gone from worst to first with the farm squads and we have to work on the big club-Alex ( and Lacava don’t forget ) have done well to get us this far. If we can trade for a few starters ( at least 2) eg Dempster ( Canadian free agent) and Garza or Johnson the I think we’d have a real shot given the revamped bullpen and it wouldn’t matter who played LF

    • Why did you include “canadian free agent” in there? Who cares where he’s from. You might as well have called Garza and Johnson “American free agents” if passports mattered so much.

      • So passports don’t matter, ya cum-slurping asslicker? The Jays should move to fuckin Buffalo then. Go follow them there you fucking trained seal.

      • Kinda matters because some of those things like funny coloured money won’t put off a Canadian like they might some middle America hay seed. But that’s about it…

  15. How long has it been since they announced the signing of Hech? 2009? Can not wait to see this guy!

    • I’m hoping for one jaw-droppingly-awesome defensive play, even if this is his first game ever at third base.

      I’m not expecting anything from his bat, given he’s still probably a year in the minors away batting-wise. But then he wasn’t supposed to be up here anyways until Lawrie got injured.

  16. Funny how someone’s posting as me now. Even bigger losers on here than I thought before, and that’s saying something.

    What’s the over/under for Romero’s innings today?

  17. Why are Colby and Bretzky laughing in that picture?? They are imagining each other with the male pattern baldness they see on Omar >

    BL: Im sure as fuck not wearing my hat when I don’t have to bro, they say hats cause that shit?

    CR: For real? Thanks for the heads up, I love my locks, and so does my lady, you know what I mean. You’re my dude.

  18. I hear Dwayne Wise is available?

    • Thought he was playin for the Yanks?

      • DFA’d this week.

        • jays ussually pick pick up dewayne wise every year. he plays well at yankee stadium

          • White Sox picked him up already. #FreeMcCoy

          • I will reply to this comment because it’s short.

            If what you say is true,
            and they do pick up wise to play at Yankee stadium,
            You’re telling me these asshole Rogers cheap fucks are spending millions of dollars every year on a player because he has the odd good weekend in New York?
            Fuck me. I want to work for those cheap bastards.

  19. I love AA but starting to doubt that Rogers is really going to pony up. Darvish was a marketable stud in his mid-20s who had to sign with the highest bidder… If Rogers spending was real, they would have him.

    • Don’t know if you’ve noticed but Darvish has been getting hammered lately as teams start to put together a book on him.

    • Too many question marks for the 2012 season for AA to overbid on Darvish.Darvish publicly stated he wouldn’t sign for less than the posting bid. Also, if you can believe the press reports( we don’t know whether they were true or not) the Rangers bid approx. 20 mil more than the second place bid.

      • as for darvish I agree with AA that paying 120 million for someone with no major league experience was very rsky.

        however what was wrong with signing edwin jackson for 1 year at 12 million?

        why not try to get ortiz for 2 years at 26 million in the 5 days he was a free agent?

        • Jeez Oakville because then you’d be complaining about how Jackson is blocking Drabek,Alavaraz or Hutch.

          • NOPE . PLENTY OF ROOM IN THE ROTATION FOR A VETERAN PITCHER.

            DRABEK SHOULD HAVE BEEN 5TH STARTER AT BEST.

            HUTCH SHOULD BE IN MINOR LEAGUES.

          • I always wanted them to sign a veteran starter.

            Jays were rushing Alvarez,Hutchison.

    • Please people. PLEASE.

      If you are going to bitch about the team sucking this year, then please have rational reasons to back up your stupid comments.

      Everything you say is wrong.

      AA told you: We place a value on a player which we believe is market value. WE then look for players who are below that market value.

      Learn business management. And keep this in mind I got fired from my job at TD because they couldn’t understand this point either. So you’re just as smart as the bankers. and yes I have my CFA so I know about the Law of diminishing returns.

      Texas won Darvish with the market value bid.
      The market value is the value at which the product was sold. So the Ragers paid market value for Darvish.

      It would have been virtually impossible for the Jays to bid the market value, or the winning bid, otherwise they would not have gotten a player at what they thought would be market value.
      They would have overguessed the market and the scouting department would have looked like fools. They are not fools. They are identifying talent that if properly developed will have a sustainable playoff run.
      They jobs are to get guess at less than market value, so if they win the bid they would have failed their jobs.
      AA knows we need to get value to market and to do that we can’t win any auction system, including free agency.
      Wake up and learn business. Then you’ll buy me a beer and say thank you as we sit in your Jays season tickets.
      Education is beautiful.
      I am revealing too much. I will shut up.

      • Hello,

        Stupid ignorant fan or whatever your name is now.

        Thank you for admitting that you post ridiculous comments using my name.

        Perhaps if you have you have your CFA charter you should read the code of ethics about impersonating other people.

        With respect to Darvish, AA can come up with whatever value he wants , but the other baseball teams place different values on different players.

        The new CBA makes it harder for AA to use his old triks of hoarding draft picks & then overpaying the slot amounts to get players that are tough to sign.

        The new CBA reduces revenu sharing for teams like the Jays which operate in large markets bu treport below average revenue.

        Otherteams have access to FMV of braodcast revenues.

        Jays get 36 million from Rogers which appears to be very low based on ratings .

        I do think that as other teams get more money, the prices for players will go up.

        A has to adjust to this reality or face the consequences of being shut out of the free agent market.

        AA also has to realize that the second wildcard makes it harder to do in season trades because few teams are out of the playoff race.

        Hopefully, AA builds a better team for next year.

        • Earlier you claimed that AA’s strategy of getting old relievers failed so he changed that policy to bring in younger relievers.
          Now you are noting how he used this strategy to hoard draft picks but that doesn’t work with the new CBA.
          So clearly you recognize he changed his strategy gaming the system based on the new CBA?
          Not because his old ways “didn’t work”.

  20. *scratches head*

    So Chavez shit the bed big-time earlier and Cecil has shown solid numbers against lefties, and Farrell suggested that Cecil would be useful in the BP. So why are the Jays sending him down to continue starting while putting a human gas can into the BP for now?

    But yeaaa to Happ getting the chance to start again – make the most of it, Jay.

    • “JA”, he spells it “JA”…

      Because that totally makes sense.

      • Wonder if he got a little $ bonus from AA/Rogers to tell the media “my name is spelled J.A. but it’s pronounced as “Jay”…

        Jays have had a lot of guys with the pronunciation of “Jay” in their names – JP Ricciardi, JP Arencibia, BJ Ryan, AJ Burnett, even had guys like Jayson Werth and Jay Gibbons (drafted by the jays) once upon a time.

      • If he starts doing well we should refer to him as Jay ‘fuckin eh’ Happ

    • Chavez looks like he is going to cry every time he is on the mound.

      The jays must hate Cecil because he was a jp Riccardi pick

      chavez has been a disater this year. why not give cecil a try as lefty specialist when oliver is tired.

      chavez is completely useless.

      • “The jays must hate Cecil because he was a jp Riccardi pick”

        If that were true then they also hate RR, Hutch, Alvarez, Frasor, JB, JPA, EE,

        I’ve probably missed a few.

        • It’s a classic GM move to promote the players you have picked/traded for & get rid of underperformers from the previous regime.

          It is only logical that AA would not care about Travis Snider but will allow Hech, Gose Sierra to go multiple years without performance .

          • Last night you argued that the time clock to start judging and criticizing AA isn’t 3 years because he did all the work in the JP regime.
            Now you’re arguing he hates all these players,of which you name one, where he would hate them because he did all that work to get him?

            I’m confused.
            Maybe if we ignore reality, you make sense

        • I think AA will give more rope to his picks /acuisitions than to JP’s kids that fail.

          I hope they don’t ruin Gose., Hech etc by rushing them here.

          • This is the only point of yours to which I agree.
            They are rushing the kids, but that is more out of necessity. A team can only carry 24/25 players on its roster.
            How many players do we have that are hurt?

  21. Fuck off parkes

  22. Ricky..

  23. Injuring opposing pitchers now. Muahahahahahaha

  24. Finally it’s the other team going to the bullpen in the 2nd inning! Make something happen, Blue Jays.

  25. Griffin just got pulled in the second inning. Nice to see that it’s not a Jays pitcher walking off with an injury for a change.

  26. GOSSSSSSSSSSSSSE – extra base power

    (and fuck me with the plays at the plate – another Butterfingers mistake??

  27. Another injury? =/

  28. Sierra mistake, sorry Butterfingers

  29. Geez Buck there’s no way he was going to be safe…stop it already..

  30. Fuck I’m tired of 2 out hits and runs…

  31. I’m starting to REALLY like EE as the permanent 1B

  32. not over hypeing Hech at all.. bat speed like Hank Aaron?

    • Yeah, bit tired of the rookie hype…. if somehow we had Stasburg, Trout or Harper they’d be wetting themselves.

  33. Norberto’s better than Griffin…

  34. Surprised stoeten hasn’t commented yet on this thread arguing with oakville69

  35. Gah there goes Buck with his Kurt Suzuki love again.

  36. Has Hech had a play yet? …anyone?….anyone….? Bueller…..?

  37. Was that Ryan Gosling talking to the trainer?

  38. So EE doesnt have the green light, I’m guessing that was a very well called and executed hit and run.

  39. Should have sent him.

  40. Guess we should get used to this with the offence we’ve got……depressing

    • ok, ok , I was just kidding! I meant it’s great having everyone injured and having a AAA lineup!

  41. what’s depressing is the large number of people in here who REACT emotionally to the ups and DOWNS of the game … if the players do this they are unsuccessful, because in a game where failure is 7:3 you cannot sweat the little stuff; it’s a game of confidence … now a team is the sum total of all its Relations, so fans who lose their shit every other nanosecond diminish that sum total. It’s one thing to have a mental, “oh, shit” when things go wrong, but voicing that becomes a problem and solidifying it with logic leads to actual depression and eventually mental illness.

    • furthermore it leads to negative narratives that then become the story-line of other disappointed, disgruntled “fans” …. the team is not being run from this room … what I see is some promise from Brad Lincoln as observed by all who were watching last night. He could be our best reliever and he is not burdened by the “CLOSER” label, so can be used whenever the game is on the line. For the rest of this year at least, Lyon is going to shut the door most times, maybe making himself worth resigning. When the starters only have to get the game to the 6th they can relax a bit. This is a positive direction, small sample size for sure, but this is like a good smell coming from a restaurant kitchen. I’d prefer the people running around throwing shit had a little more respect.

  42. Blue Jays still unaware I exist

  43. Here comes another two out hit for runs.

  44. The only way the Jays win this is if they lose the DH again and Romero hits multiple homers.

  45. some free adrenaline there

  46. Kelly Johnson. Released by end of the season? He’s useless.

    • the Oakland announcers just made a comment that while KJ is struggling right now he is a leader in 2nd basemen for walks and HR and one of the better offensive 2B … with “enemies” like that I have to wonder about “friends” like Kay Joe, who when someone fails, immediately launch a cowardly “attack”

  47. Jays sign Jack Cust, assign him to AAA

  48. Watching this West coast road trip is like a kind of torture.

  49. Way to go Ricky. 7 innings after what the pen did last night.

  50. Silver Lining = Romero throwing some strikes.

  51. 7 IP, 3 H, 4 BB… you’re right, Romero is a fucking scrub. He’s going to “regress” into the pitcher he’s been, oh, < 20% of the time.

    You people aren't worth me stuffing my cock down your throats.

  52. Holy fuck. I thought I had some long winded posts, but man there’s some whoppers today.

    Strictly by reason of an incredibly freaky string of injuries for a lower payroll team AA gets a pass from me for the most part. Going forward the key is going to be what he can do before the waiver deadline and this winter especially. If he goes cheap again with the core that he has in place then there’s not much else to say. I’m not even talking about mega contracts either. I just want to see some quality at 2nd, Left and at Starting Pitcher. Three spots, four if you can get one more starter of quality. I can live with some form of Lind or whoever else at DH for now. 2 more starting pitchers pushes 2 guys out who become depth and give your system one more year to progress the talent.

    As for rushing prospects please enough with the Snider was rushed therefore it’s bad to rush everyone else. That’s about the dumbest thing I’ve heard this summer. There’s plenty of prospects that do just fine at an early age. Also you’re totally assuming that going up and down ruined him when there’s a perfectly reasonable alternative explanation in that he just couldn’t adapt quickly enough. I’m not saying either is valid. Nobody will truly ever know. Lets just hope from this point on there’s no more season ending injuries and that everyone else gets healthy and recovers fully.

    Hopefully the in a couple of weeks the Jays get Morrow, Jose and Lind back and can play serious spoiler down the stretch.

    • Nice, manimal.

    • “Going forward the key is going to be what he can do before the waiver deadline and this winter especially. If he goes cheap again with the core that he has in place then there’s not much else to say. I’m not even talking about mega contracts either. I just want to see some quality at 2nd, Left and at Starting Pitcher. Three spots, four if you can get one more starter of quality. I can live with some form of Lind or whoever else at DH for now. 2 more starting pitchers pushes 2 guys out who become depth and give your system one more year to progress the talent. ”

      Agreed. AA knows what the problem is, so he has to fix it either with a trades to acuire the talent or through free agent signings.

      They don’t need a 200 million dollar contract but should be able to get a LF,starting pitcher, some bench depth.

      I assume hech & escobar will play SS & 2B.

      • You’re right Oakville69
        If we suspend all reality, you make sense.

        We should tell all the free agents if they come play here for below market value we’ll make irrational jays fans like you happy.

        I think that is exactly how Alex gets this guys with his stated method of getting them “BELOW” market value.

        So if we ignore what market value means, then yes, we should be able to sign 3 of the top 6 free agents.

        Thank you for being so clear in your ignorance.

        I sense either no reply coming,
        or a reply so hidiously bad that people will start reading you as though you are a marketing genius to gain support for AA.

        Brilliant! How could I ever doubt? Anyone with 69 in their moniker is certainly a properly developed person.

        Lead us OAKVILLE69! Lead us to your team where you are hired as a professional General Manager. You know better than those with the jobs.

        I sense no reply forthcoming

        • I don’t often make posts, but when I do I make sense.

        • Hello Mr CFA. Perhaps you should stop with the personal insults if you want to be taken seriously.

          I have no idea about what you are talking about with AA getting players below FMV?

          AA has been able to get players through trades who are underpeforming career numbers or perceived ceilings like Rasmus,Escobar., Edwin etc..

          The players have improved their performance & are now worth more than they were when they joined the team.

          I doubt the Jays will be signing players for 200 million long term contracts

  53. Romero pitched well with Gomes behind the plate as well. He has way more value as a catcher than 3B or 1B so thats awesome.

  54. Nice work striking out the side, Delabar. 17 strikes in 23 pitches, sez MLB.tv app.

    • He has some pretty good stuff. I am really liking the pen for the rest of the year and especially next year with the additions of Santos and possibly Stroman. You are looking at potentially 4 guys from the right side all with closer stuff. Just think of where this team would have been the first 2 months of the season when the starting pitching was intact but with a lights out pen.

      • hear, hear

      • The bullpen should be in better shape next year.

        Is Luis Perz out for all of 2013?

        Is carlos V resigned to be a starter or reliever for next year?

        • Consider Perez gone until 2014 or at best end of 2013 and there’s no telling how he bounces back. He was average for the most part anyway. Put way too many runners on base.

          Carlos is a free agent. Personally I think seriously about making him a 5th starter next year and return Hutch or Alvarez to the minors.

          Go with
          Morrow
          Free Agent
          Romero
          Hutch or Alvarez
          Villanueva or better free agent

          Please don’t say what about Happ or Laffey? Please. One of Happ or Laffey can be a loogy or long man out of the pen since Delabar does so well vs Lefties to go with Loup and Oliver. The other goes back to the minors with Cecil, Hutch or Alvarez for pitching depth. That’s 3 solid replacement starters. Hopefully they get a new coach or two in AA that can do a reboot with McGuire and Jenkins. You’ll also have Stilson (who looks like he’s probably bound for the pen anyway).

          With 2 free agent starters, recoveries from injuries along with the moves AA made recently you’ve suddenly got a deeper and more experienced group than last year. Just hope he can land a couple of whales.

        • Perez should be out all of 2013… 12 months will bring him up to the middle of next jul…

  55. FUCK YEAH

  56. Bland Ichiro!
    Going 15 innings again?

  57. David Cooper just politely asked all of the negative nellies to suck his dick

  58. Cooper has 3 doubles and a homerun in his last 4 games. May be our hottest hitter right now

  59. Attaboy Coop. Let’s go another 15 innings and really check out that new bullpen.

  60. haha I just got in the door from my “chores” , running around listening to the game on radio and just went to get my pizza and watch the end of the 9th and I miss Super Cooper (good one allisauce).

    now settle in for, what, another 6 innings??

    AWESOME

  61. One thing that I don’t understand about Cooper is why everyone keeps repeating that he’s an awful first basemen. But he’s done a decent job so far.

  62. Cooper! Made all this Caribana (or whatever the fuck it’s called now) noise worthwhile!

  63. Switching from beer to Bombay & Tonics for Janssen.

  64. Fuck Yeah Casey DP

  65. Cooper is best of the AAA hitters

  66. how about a shout out for JF brilliant management there

  67. nice when CJ is not your last bullet

  68. who wants to make this team?

  69. KJ strikes out. Who woulda thunk it?

    • I would expect more him. Some stepping up and filling the void type of thing… He’s been pretty awful.

  70. If the Rogers had opened their wallets in the off-season none of this would’ve happened!

    • If Rogers opened their wallets in the off-season to get everyone super healing powers, none of this would’ve happened!

  71. Why do they like Chavez?
    This won’t last long

  72. GOOOOOOOOOOOSE

  73. WHY THE FUCK IS JANSSEN OUT AFTER THROWING *THREE* PITCHES?

    Jesus Christ John, it’s like you’re not even trying.

    • Yes. Why isn’t Janssen at least pitching part of this inning???

      • If janssen was so fatigued that he could only face one batter…then he should not have been used at all.

        I dont think he has pitched in almost a week before last night.

        chavez is in there simply because they have noone else. he was specificlaly brought up because he can go multiple innings.

  74. Sweet catch, Gose.

  75. Gawd not Chavez

  76. I was shocked that Chavez was put in this situation, but I get it now …. to make Gose look good. 8-)

  77. here it comes

  78. Jemima Weeks can fuck right the fuck off.

  79. No Mo CoCo No Mo

  80. really love my bullpen dudes allergic to the strike zone.

  81. Walkoff walk coming up

  82. aw fuck why the fuck are we doing this after 10 fucking innings…yank this punk Farrell!

  83. Why… Chavez…?

    Seriously, can someone explain why he was called up?

  84. Reddick’s stance reminds me of Pedroia (kind of stature-wise too) weird

  85. Chavez is rock-solid.

  86. haha Spider Monkey, caught looking 2 games in a row – Bling Bling

  87. Fuck you, Reddick. Douchebag.

  88. free adrenaline AGAIN

  89. Now, quickly, GET CHAVEZ BACK ON A PLANE TO VEGAS.

    Also, seriously: assign bullpen management to someone else. Farrell’s seriously got no clue.

  90. Ok I take it back! Chavez pumped one right down the middle and Reddick wasnt ready for it. Please dont bring him out in the 11th!

  91. One of those surprise Rajai jacks would be nice here.

  92. Gutsy pitch by Chavez, but that was a makeup call by the ump.

    • I’m thinking if Reddick was ready for that pitch-fastball down the middle- it would still be travelling…

  93. If Farrell brings in Oliver now after bringing in Chavez after 3 pitches from Janssen…. Well i just dont know.

  94. Could it be? Could it be?

  95. ?Nice work, Sportsnet.

  96. Hits with runners in scoring position? Welcome back.

  97. Sierra is not looking out of place!

  98. Sierra is fast, but lacks body control and takes these HUMUNGOUS wide turns at third

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