I mentioned in Tuesday’s Afternoon Snack that, back on Friday, Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star had given us five things the Jays ought to do in August, and amazingly, by the end of the weekend the club had pretty much already nailed his whole list of suggestions– save for the one we couldn’t possibly know about: quietly beginning the process of courting the Buffalo Bisons as the club’s new Triple-A franchise.

Well, I thought, if the club is seemingly so damn eager for suggestions, why the hell not throw a few more ideas at the wall and see if they stick? And why not make them a touch more severe than the stuff Griff floated?

So, in that spirit, here are Five Radical-ish Things the Jays Ought to Do With What’s Left of 2012…

Release Omar Vizquel and bench Kelly Johnson for Adeiny Hechavarria

Not a particularly outlandish move in the world of cold realists who wonder what the hell he’s doing on the roster in the first place, but releasing Vizquel might be difficult for the Jays, both for the way they built up his credentials as a clubhouse leader and as a guy many believe deserves to be Cooperstown-bound. It has been novel to get to see Vizquel up close the way we have this season, and he’s still got the odd spark left in his bat, and some magic in his glove, but it’s simply not enough to be more than just barely passable as the 25th man on the roster.

A commenter on Tuesday’s post about Dustin McGowan’s latest surgery insisted that anger over the pitcher’s contract would be better served aimed in the direction of Vizquel’s continuing presence on the roster, because it’s made it difficult, as the Jays have scratched and clawed to keep their heads above water, to give days off to Kelly Johnson and Yunel Escobar– two Jays whose performances, I personally suspect, have been impacted the most by various ailments over the course of the year. I don’t think we have to choose one thing or the other to be upset about, but I can’t say that the commenter is wrong about Vizquel– all the more so now, with Hechavarria here and not looking entirely out of place.

Speaking of Johnson, though I’ve been a supporter of his since he arrived from Arizona a year ago, and can almost make myself believe that the hamstring injury he suffered in the first half could be at least somewhat to blame for his putrid last two-and-a-half months, I certainly wouldn’t have been so soft if Adam Lind or Eric Thames had seen their season whither so spectacularly on the vine, so it’s time for him to take a seat too, so that we can see the youngster Hechavarria continue to get at-bats at this level, allowing the club to judge his fitness for the Majors on more than this brief cameo while Brett Lawrie is on the shelf.

What’s vaguely radical about that aspect of it, of course, is that it would very likely cement the fact that Johnson will leave for nothing, killing whatever minimal August trade value he may have had left– not to mention whatever goodwill was supposedly earned when the club let Cito keep pointlessly putting free-agent-to-be John Buck in the lineup at the end of 2010.

Of course, John Farrell doesn’t have a legacy to pad at the expense of the club’s long term vision, so I’d reckon that last bit is of no concern.


Send Anthony Gose back to Las Vegas

We’ve been harsh on Anthony Gose and his preparedness for the Majors in this little corner of the internet, but my suggestion here isn’t about that. And it isn’t so much about worrying that he’ll be “Snider’d” if he should continue to be rushed so hard in his ascent towards becoming a Major League regular– and let’s be clear, there were whole other dimensions beyond age to how Snider was rushed, primarily the fact that he went up four levels in 2008 and the total instability of the experiment as a whole.

No, I actually think Gose has it in him to be a much better hitter than he’s shown, and that he could very possibly handle it to take his lumps at the Major League level if that’s what they really wanted to. But to do it as a left fielder? Or by displacing Colby Rasmus from centre?

You could get away with it for these last two months of the season, but neither option makes any sense going forward– especially if you’re looking to Adeiny Hechavarria as a regular in the lineup. Or, y’know, if you’re ever going to have to face a left-hander.

Gose can certainly use more time to refine his approach in the minors, and it’s a waste to have him here out of position, losing opportunities to face left-handers, neutralizing his two best tools, or turning an above average CF into a below average LF by moving Colby Rasmus there. Sure, the skills are tantalizing, but there’s just no reason for this call-up to be permanent, so don’t complicate it. Send him back to Las Vegas to finish the PCL season, and start him there again next spring.


Get Prepared to Walk Away from JA Happ

I phrase in this way because I don’t think we’ve seen anywhere close to enough yet of JA Happ to say whether or not he ought to be on his way out the door after the season is over, but the Jays need to start watching closely and to start thinking about it.

Happ is heading into arbitration for the second time, meaning that he’ll be getting some kind of a raise on the $2.35-million he makes this year. Sure, there were reasons to view him as an upside play when the Jays acquired him last month– an uptick in velocity, and increasingly better walk and strikeout rates– but it’s hard not to wonder if maybe he’s more yesterday’s man than tomorrow’s– the kind of guy they could have used earlier this year, more than a guy they’ll want to rely on next season.

Yes, his kind of depth arm has some value– as indicated by the fact that the Jays paid a non-zero price to acquire him, and because in recent years they’ve gone out of their way to use first round draft picks on “safe” arms of a similar mould, like Deck McGuire and Chad Jenkins– but enough to justify a $3-million price tag? That, one suspects, will depend on how he fares in the next two months, and what the Jays plans are with other arms.

Is Happ’s contract a better allocation resources than paying about the same amount to retain Carlos Villanueva? Than paying Aaron Laffey much less? Or how about Jenkins, who ought to be given an extended look these last two months as well?

It’s not necessarily an either-or proposition, of course, but if Happ’s performance warrants him sliding down the depth chart, non-tendering him has to be viewed as an option.

To me it’s especially a radical-ish suggestion because, while I’m less concerned about the prospect capital Alex Anthopoulos used up in acquiring him (and David Carpenter, and to get the Astros to flip Brandon Lyon for Francisco Cordero), the GM certainly used up some of his ever-dissipating goodwill among the fan base to do so.

But saving face can’t be a concern if Happ simply doesn’t appear like he’ll be worth the money he’ll command through arbitration– little as it may be. Anthopoulos may have to bite the bullet on this one, and he needs to start contemplating as much, and ensuring he sees enough of Happ, Jenkins, and whoever else he needs to in order to decide.


Eat Whatever Salary You Have To In Dealing Adam Lind

My views on Adam Lind have been well represented around here (hint: they’re negative), so this probably won’t come as a surprise, but the time has long come to cut bait on the 1B/DH who is now mired in his third straight wasted season. Sure, injury has partly been a culprit in derailing his season (again), and he hit relatively well (.850 OPS in 24 games) after returning from a demotion to Triple-A, but it has to be– has to be– too little too late. The Jays can’t go into 2013 with Adam Lind as a regular player, following three abysmal years in which he has been a half win below replacement, per FanGraphs, with a .292 OBP, .718 OPS, .310 wOBA and 91 wRC+ over nearly 1400 plate appearances.

Lind is currently on the shelf, but if he’s able to come back and show he’s healthy before the end of the month, maybe there’s a taker to be found– especially (read: only) if the Jays are willing to eat some of his remaining salary. And damn it, they should be.

We’re finally reaching the point where it can be argued that walking away from Lind’s deal isn’t too expensive a proposition to consider. By my calculation, he’s owed about $1.4-million for the rest of this season, then there’s $5-million for next year, and $3.5-million more in buyouts of his club options for 2014, ’15, and ’16.

The $5.5-million they walked away from when releasing Mark Teahen it is not, nor would it be quite the same to walk away from a player they signed to a much-praised potentially seven-years-long deal just two years ago, but $9.9-million isn’t a crazy amount in baseball terms, either. If you move him, any amount you don’t have to eat is pure savings, and more importantly, this question gets finally, mercifully, put away forever.

Sure, Lind could be a useful bench bat and insurance for Edwin Encarnacion and whatever the club decides to do at DH, but I’d much rather the club rid themselves of the temptation and show us that they’re not so insane as to believe that a month in Vegas woke the sleeping “real” Lind from his 1300 plate appearance-long nap. As with Aaron Hill last year, we’re long beyond the point where it would hurt in the slightest to see him go turn his career around in new environs. And after seeing what passed as “opportunity” for Travis Snider, I just cannot fathom how Lind’s rope isn’t at its end.


Bring Up an Injured Travis d’Arnaud

By the time the rosters expand in September, Las Vegas catcher Travis d’Arnaud still won’t be healthy enough to see any game action, as he continues to recover from the knee ligament tear he suffered in late June. He won’t play again until the Arizona Fall League, but that doesn’t mean he ought to sit at home in Septemebr while teammates who he out-wOBA’d by 50 points experience life in “the show.”

The Jays should activate d’Arnaud from the 51s’ DL in time to bring him to the Majors and get a taste of the pitching staff he’ll be working with next year (or, better still, just bring him up to Toronto without putting him on the roster and starting his service clock)– because, let’s be clear, he is far and away the right choice to break camp as the Jays’ number one catcher.

Yes, JP Arencibia is well-liked by the fans and seems to have a good relationship with the pitching staff, but he did nothing in his second turn with the Jays to dispel the major questions surrounding his bat. Yes, he again demonstrated the power to knock twenty- maybe thirty-odd mistakes out of the park over the course of a season, but his on-base percentage was slightly down on the disgusting .292 he put up last year, plus he didn’t walk as often, and his strikeout rate was slightly up. In other words, this wasn’t the quantum leap forward in year two that many fans, who saw a big step forward in his repeat year at Triple-A, were hoping for.

Both Arencibia and d’Arnaud played at New Hampshire at age 22 and Vegas at 23, and the numbers aren’t even close: d’Arnaud had a .402 and .413 wOBA in those years, compared to Arencibia’s .348 and .316. Even when a year older and repeating the level, Arencibia (.412 wOBA) was slightly behind d’Arnaud– and that’s while factoring in d’Arnaud’s slow start, wherein he OPS’d a low-for-Vegas .778 in this season’s first month.

d’Arnaud is a more well-rounded hitter with a better defensive pedigree– he was named best defensive catcher for 2011 in a poll of Eastern League managers. The job will be his, so why wait in letting him get acclimated to it, even if he won’t be able to participate in any game action just yet?


Image via Newsgrist/NYMag.

* Alternate caption: “They’re probably all dead!”

Comments (229)

  1. May I suggest firing AA and having Oakville69 step in as interim General Manager?
    2013 world series champs!

    • LOL! I agree.

      Well that’s a radical post.

      The Jays paying 9.9 million to get rid of Adam Lind????

      Rogers would blow a gasket at AA if he started pulling these JPRiccardi moves.

      Leave him on the bench at a minimum.

      Disagree about JPA vs TDA.

      Bringing up a banged up TDA is very risky if he gets hurt again.

      Didn’t JPA win a batting title in the PCL?

      Didn’t Cooper win a batting title in the PCL?

      Using awards from the minors doesn’t mean much in the MLB.

      The Jays getting rid of J.A Happ?? A team that needs 15-20 pitchers a year to start.

      Sending a future full time OF Gose back to Vegas to learn how to hit. OK

      I thought Gose was supposed to take Rasmus’s place in CF according to some of the posters here:))

      TDA is so highly rated?

      Make him the number 1 catcher based on some scouting reports?

      LOL!. I thought he should at least play as a backup for a year before he is crowned the starting catcher.

      • It would be hard for TDA to get hurt if he wasn’t actually playing baseball, which is what the post suggests.

        • I didn’t realize you could bring up players that are on the DL to chat with the pitchers in the clubhouse.
          The service clock watching fans would blow a gasket if TDA acquired a few months of extra service. I thought this blog was keen on service time efficiency & super 2 rules or was that Parkes?

      • Didn’t Cooper win a batting title in the PCL?
        Using awards from the minors doesn’t mean much in the MLB.

        You wrote both of those points…

        • and this one:

          Didn’t JPA win a batting title in the PCL?

        • Exactly. Winning awards in the minor leagues is great but cannot guarantee MLB success.

          JPA won awards & half of the posters want to run him out of town.

          Now that TDA is the new savior with an award in AA, he should be given a full time catchiing job for the Jays??

          That doesn’t make sense.

          I would have thought that the prospect porn lovers would be hiding after Gose,Hech, Sierra haven’t won any player of the week awards yet???

          It takes time to develop players as has been noted on this board.

        • Cooper won the batting title in 2011

          JPA was MVP of the league in 2010.

          I stand corrected

      • The Jays wouldn’t have to eat 9.9 mil to trade Adam Lind. I bet whatever team he went to would want to keep those options in their pocket in case he turned things around. I think paying his salary for the rest of this year and next would do it, i.e. 6.0 million.

        Think about it: if you were a GM, would you pay $0 and a prospect or fifth starter to see what Adam Lind can do for you over the last month of this year and all of next, knowing that if he does well you have his next 3 years after that locked up, and if he doesn’t you could buy him out for $3.5 mil?

        I bet a lot would. I would.

  2. The only benefit I can see to allowing Hechavarria (and Gose for that matter) to continue to start (and look completely overmatched while doing so) is to get the front office to realize that they aren’t anywhere close to good enough hitters to start at this level in 2013. They still need serious offensive development to play here and this team needs guys that aren’t total black holes in LF and 2B if they want to contend next season.

    • Well said.

    • Welcome Back Fullmer,

      I think it can’t hurt for the prospects to get some playing time in a meaningless season.

      Can you really see Rogers changing course 180 degrees & opening up the payroll parameters to 100 million to get some competent MLB players?

      This will break the hearts of the hipster prospect porn watchers.:))

      • If Gose and Hech are so pitiful offensively that the team can’t even justify going cheap with them next year (and it’s looking like they may be), then yes, the Jays may be essentially forced to go get legitimate outside options at the positions.

      • Add in the increases in draft spending above the last two Ricciardi years, and the increases in international spending in 2010 and 2011, and there was an extra $30-million being spent. They could have not made any increases in those areas and put $15-million additional into the last two MLB payroll figures, which would have taken them to $100-million at the start of this year.

        Of course, it’s extremely unlikely that would have changed anything significant about the results on the field, and what they did do was spent it much more wisely. But why let that get in the way of a good piss and moan session, huh?

        • Didn’t the team get extra draft picks in 2010 & 2011 because of all the Type A & B picks accumulated from free agents that left?

          There was no cap in 2010& 2011 so they spent more to get those players signed before the picks were lost.

          Pretty sure there was a comparison don between the Jays/Red Sox & Yankees on this board. Jays spent more but only by a couple of million.

          Fullmer brings up a good point.

          Do the Jays go Cheap in 2013 with Gose/Hech as full time players or do they spend or trade for established MLB players??

          • So you’re saying we spent more than the Red Sox and Yankees in a category? If nothing else, that’s got to be promising, no?

    • First thing you’ve ever posted that I actually agree with.

    • I’ll take Hech and Escobar up the middle with average bats. But LF needs to produce a lot more to make up. Meaning we better sign some sort of big bat out there or trade for one.

      In other words, keep Hech and Escobar (I don’t care which plays which position) and save the money on Johnson and continue enjoying Escobar’s good contract. Then take that savings and throw it at LF.

      Do we have an option on Matthis? I’m ok with TDA and Matthis and trade JPA for something.

  3. She works hard for her money… so hard for her money

  4. AA has to be let go; or a senior advisor needs to be hired to help him out. he’s in way over his head. just one example:

    .293 .348 .475 .823

    that’s aaron hill.


    there was a comment made that AA oughta just be a AAA GM. to me, that makes a lot of sense. it’s pretty obvious now this team is in shambles and is going to have pretty much no choice but to spend its way out. which it determined it wouldn’t do this year… can’t see as how next year we’d be in any better position that we were to start this one.

    if you just go down the list of trades and signings, you either end up with a wash, or with AA being more or less taken for a ride.

    i liked the guy too (like many here do) but if you remove emotion and ‘prospect hope’ from the equation, you’re not left with much in the way of results so far. maybe it is true that he’s set up the team for longterm, sustained MLB-level success, but man, you’d have a pretty hard time making that case right now with a straight face.

    • Hill was a free agent after last season who anybody in baseball could have signed. The D-Backs signed him to an apparently reasonable contract that he has outperformed. AA, as well as 28 other GMs that failed to sign Hill as a free agent to a contract closer to his true value, missed on Hill.

      • The Jays had the most knowledge about AAron Hill.

        given that they drafted him, injury reports etc…

        They got rid of him.

        AA wanted Kelly Johnson, so after this year an a bit tryout while he is playing hurt with hamstring issue, AA will let him go somewhere else for 2013.

        Where will KJ go as a free agent??

    • Holy incredibly fucking dumb.

      1) Hill wasn’t coming back next year (he had a contract option they weren’t going to pick up– nor should they have, given how terrible he’d been in the previous two seasons), so what he’s done this year with Arizona is pretty irrelevant. And it’s only with a tonne of laughable hindsight that anybody could slag the club for not jumping at the chance to give him one more opportunity.

      2) Suggesting that the team is in shambles (unless you’re talking about the injuries) is almost as fucking dumb as the implication that their decision not to spend last year means that they’ve decided to never spend.

      3) Holy fuck, somehow you’ve topped yourself with the stupidity about trades. AA didn’t win the deals for Morrow, Wells, Escobar and Rasmus? He didn’t do very well in dealing Halladay (when he had no choice but to do so), or trading Molina at the zenith of his value for Santos? Darren Oliver wasn’t a tremendous pickup? He didn’t turn guys like Dotel and Patterson into core assets and Rauch and Francisco into high-end picks?

      4) The last bit is 100% ass-talk and posturing to hide your nonexistent argument.

    • So a “AAA GM” traded away the untradeable Vernon Wells, got Yunel Escobar and Colby Rasmus for spare parts, and saved about $100 million by extending Jose Bautista before he was an FA. Try again.

      Anyone parroting Aaron Hill needs to take a look at his home/road splits. The overall numbers are excellent, yes, but he’s a desert creation.

      AA’s acquisitions this year have not been nearly as good, but I would say he’s done good work in spots. This offseason will be very telling.

    • Is there even such a thing as a GM of a Triple-A team?

    • Some of the worst trolling around here in ages.

    • Hill & Rios have recovered their careers to make the Jays decisons look questionable.

      However, it is unlikely that they would perform at that level with the Jays.

      Rios was swearing at kids at Jays care events & playing with toy helicopters after games at the Rogers Centre.

      Hill couldn’t be the pull hitter that Dwayne Murhy wanted. He’s safer in the NL.

      • Rios hasn’t been here in 3 years. Who cares about what he’s doing now?

        • it’s remarkable that he has become a competent OF again.

          I thought trade analysis could only be done within 5 years of the trade?

          I didn’t like Rios, but good for him that he able to re establish himself somewhere else.

      • Bautista became everyday after Rios left, I’ll take that outcome.

      • Rios was shit in Chicago for two years before finally having a season worth his contract this year. We should wait for another two shit years on top of the two or three already-shit years to see if a guy comes back to his old level? Dumb comment.

    • Hill wasn’t going to turn it around in Toronto.

      As crazy as it sounds, sometimes players just need a new environment and new coaches and a new team to turn it around.

      I’m glad Hill is playing good again, I’ve always really liked him. And I hope Lind gets a chance on another team and can turn his career around too.

      But it was time to move on from Hill, like it is now time to move on from Lind.

      • Didn’t JP Riccardi give a cheque for 15 million in July 2009 when he was done & didn’tthat seal his fate as a GM?

        Why would AA give up on Lind with the financial consequences of 9.9 million?

    • Not sure if trolling, or just incredibly fucking stupid.

      Go back to being a SILENT armchair GM and let the professionals handle it.

    • Dumb

    • This gets my vote as the alltime worst and most stupid post on this website, which I have been reading in various aliases for a few years. I am not even gonna waste my time going point by point why this guy is wrong. Its not worth it. Even on a Leafs blog this shit would be embarressing.

    • Wow dumbest comment ever.

      Wells? Lawrie? Rasmus? Morrow? Escobar? Bautista? Encarnacion?

  5. #6 Stop winning meaningless ballgames to get a better draft selection.

  6. Start all the rookies the rest of the way in. If they show they can handle it, they might get a spot next year. If not they get to go to Vegas (or whereever). The list includes: Hechevarria, Gose, Jenkins, Cooper and even McGuire if you can fit him in.

  7. Vizquel stays until Lawrie smartens up and has Rush played before his at bats.
    (sample tweet: “changin up tha tunez-limelitez bitchesss!!!!)

  8. What is it about Hech’s .231 OBP, 7 K/BB, .322 OPS that makes him look not entirely out of place? I realize small sample size and all, but that looks about as out of place as you can get.

    • He’s cuban?

    • Maybe I should have used italics. Not ENTIRELY out of place. But mostly.

    • The only thing that saves this slightly is that it seems like the era of good hitting middle infielders has largely passed. If his glovework is truly elite, it could offset a shitty hitter a lot more than as recently as a few years ago.

      Can’t quite put my finger on what, but something about the game has changed.

  9. 1. I don’t see any reason to release Vizquel to accommodate the KJ/Hech plan. We’re 3 weeks from rosters expanding anyway and in the event Lawrie & Bautista are both around before then you can roll a bench of Gomes, Sierra, Vizquel, and Hechavarria.

    2. No brainer. There’s no reason to be wasting Gose’s service time when he clearly isn’t ready for the major leagues.

    3. You’re right on Happ, but I doubt AA would have acquired him if he wasn’t near certain he was going to tender him a contract regardless of how he looked down the stretch in 2012.

    4. Lind played for a month once he returned from Vegas and hit .288/.337/.513 before the latest DL stint. He isn’t the problem, just like Lyle Overbay was never the problem. Just recognize what you have in him and utilize him accordingly – a decent LHB bat that can be used occasionally at 1B but shouldn’t face LHP and shouldn’t hit in the middle of the order. It drives me nuts when Wilner points to how well EE is doing as a legitimate reason to have not pursued Fielder, as if what we’re seeing out of Lind shouldn’t have been expected and there was no room for a Prince.

    5. Why would you start d’Arnaud’s service clock just so he can hang around an MLB club? It would be far more beneficial for him to get some playing time in the Arizona Fall League, and really the team shouldn’t consider calling him up in 2013 until he’s cleared the extra year of control at the very least. If they’ve moved Arencibia it makes sense to get d’Arnaud up 12 days into the season or whatever it is, but if they haven’t there’s no harm in letting him cook in AAA and not costing the team, which clearly has payroll parameters, extra money down the line.

    • agree…#5 doesn’t make a whole lot of sense

      • I stand to be corrected, but I thought the service-time clock only starts when a player hits the 25-man roster. In September the 25-man expands to the 40-man, and Td’A's already on that roster.

      • Because his thought process dictates that d’Arnaud would be the starting catcher of 2013, so there’d be no difference in status if he came up in September vs. in April 2013

    • Fixed number five. No idea what you’re on about with number four.

    • Mostly agree, but there’s two problems with Lind. The first is that the organization/Farrell can’t be trusted to use Lind correctly as one of the members of a platoon, they haven’t for the last three seasons. The second is the guy, with his back issues, can’t be relied upon to stay healthy for any extended period of time and certainly not a full season.

      I’d just as well cut ties with him and acquire some other better 1B/DH.

      • OK, but I don’t see this organization throwing away 9.9 million .

        Thre aren’t any solid backups for 1B unless you consider David Cooper to be the answer,

        Keep Lind for 1 year, maybe he gets healthier realizing his career ends after next years.

        Look at Hill. His career would have been over if he didn’t rcover in Arizona.

        • Agreed. So keep Lind but trade/sign a new, quality 1B. Then Lind is backup for 1B and DH and gives a left handed bat off the bench. I’d rather have Lind PH than Vizquel or McCoy.

      • The misuse and the health concerns are valid, but the solution shouldn’t be to just swallow his contract for nothing and rely on David Cooper. They’re a deeper organization if they pursue a 1B/DH this offseason and use Lind properly off the bench. If the more sporadic duty doesn’t help keep him healthy than you have a viable option in Cooper (and hopefully Sierra, McDade, etc.) to come fill that void as a power bat off the bench. A Mathis/Gomes, Hechavarria, Lind, and Davis bench would be a versatile one that provides coverage in all areas.

    • +1

      Regarding Happ, AA will likely tender a contract as he needs to solidify the organization with some MLB experienced arms. Paying $3M for Happ isn’t anyone’s idea of a fun day, but its the cost of acquiring pitching. Happ can be useful in the BP and as a spot starter. His role might be contingent on where Villanueva ends up.

      TDA should be sent to Toronto in September and hang out with the club. He has likely never spent much time and could use the visit to familiarize himself with the city. But on the active roster? Fuck no.

  10. It’s gonna be a long two months, isn’t it…

  11. Sending Gose down for more than 20 days would burn an option. Likely not a good idea, unless you were sure he wouldn’t accumulate 20 days down there.

    • Pretty sure they already used an option on gose when they sent him down after spring training, no?

      • My understanding was that he wasn’t on the roster then. They purchased his contract when he was brought up, so now they have to option him off the active roster to send him down.

        • This is correct. An option will be burned on Gose if/when he is sent back to AAA. He wasn’t on the 40-man when he was re-assigned to the minors out of spring training, so no option was necessary.

    • AAA playoffs finish in early September. Bautista is at least a week away from coming back, and Gose is needed up here to fill Bautista’s spot.

      Whenever Bautista comes back, there won’t be 20 days left in the minor league season. Thus, this doesn’t matter.

  12. It’s been almost as frustrating watching Baltimore hold on all season. Here’s hoping its a one year flash in the pan dealie.

    • It’s not even that.

    • Dunno how much weight you put in pythagorean expectation, but as of a couple days ago when I looked you’d have to go back to the 2008 Angels to find a team playing so far above it’s adjusted W-L record. Coupled with the fact that they currently have the 3rd worst team WAR, I wouldn’t be surprised if them return to OriLOLe territory next year.

    • Their run differential is way worse than the Jays. They’re ridiculously lucky this year.

    • It’s remarkable that ateam with such a large negative run differential is still in the race.

      If it was the Jays it would be a miracle.
      Go Orioles!!!


  13. Maybe sit Bautista and Morrow the rest of the year so that they will be rested for 2013

  14. These may be radical-ish ideas (only starting Hech over KJ seems radical to me), but they all are very minor; I doubt any of these moves would result in much of a difference for future success.

  15. There is little for AA to crow about now, a young charing group of ballplayers desimated by injuries, the upside deflection is gone as the hapless rookies try to fill in at the major league level, holes on this team now have to wait for the off-season. Yep, lets talk radical – its all thats left. AA grade as a GM continues to slide this year, and there is no relief in sight. In the winter it was grass in the Rogers Centre, now its everything mentioned above – fuck. Hey Alex, 2 and 8 on the road and the Yanks are commin to town. Hope your boss is easier going than mine.

    • I’m hoping this is an off year for him.

      Way too many fans (not just here) and too much of the partisan media seem quick to point to injuries, but the fact of the matter is he made his bed. He should be embarrassed with what he’s given Farrell and Walton to work with this season and hopefully the turnstile of pitchers he’s had shuttling between here and Vegas has been an eye opener. A tape and glue rotation puts so much stress on every aspect of the ball club. Yes, arms are coming, but this team is good right now. The goodwill of the fans is/was there, why wait?

      AA is obviously competent (understatement), but what he needs to do is show he can take that next step. JPR was applauded for slashing payroll while remaining “competitive” and garnered much respect for “stealing” Hinske out from under the A’s. Alex had a hot start too, but his defining moves are right around the corner.

      Here’s hoping he’s a great GM here rather than an elite Director of Player Development somewhere else (Brewers prob) in a couple of years.

      • Good post Brett!

        I think this year gives AA some ammunition to go to Rogers & demand extra money to fix the problems.

        The prospects aren’t ready yet & while it OK to have Hech around as 2B, you can’t have 4 prospects as full time position players .

        Would Roger dare create a backlash if the team doesn’t make any upgrades in 2013.??
        It takes a few years to build goodwill & get fans interested in baseball again.

        Being cheap in 2013 won’t cut it especially with the send wildcard.

        The 2nd wildcard spot demands that a team have it’s best roster available on April 1.

        AA can’t count on major trades mid season because many teams will be in the wildcard race & are unwilling to do trades.

    • Yes, I wish Beeston had kept his trap shut about natural grass. Got my hopes up.

    • Im really believing 2 things:

      1- that AA believes that he has found a new area to exploit = Young power arms in the pen.If this club was healthy offensively then this may actually be coming into play. For the most part, we seem to be staying in games and this pen definitely has the ability to K people and have shut down innings. Sadly it is a formula that the Orioles have used all year, with a bit more starting pitching and less injuries.
      2- management has been realistic and started auditioning the youth for roles in 13. So far none have stepped forward to take a job. Which in itself, gives them more knowledge about what plan they need to take this off season.
      3 – remember even if they don’t anti up more dollars this pen is 6M cheaper than last years and then you have 5.5M in Teahen savings. Im assuming Lyon and Villaneuva arent resigned. There is also $s saved through Fransisco and KJ when he leaves. My calculation is that we will save close to 18M in these areas. I’m of the ilk that we use this $s and some minor league arms to acquire a big bat for LF and DH. We can then afford to use Hech at 2B. The only other needs will be 2starters

  16. Don’t agree with every bit of it, but your best post in months.

  17. Love the D’Arnaud idea, hasn’t even thought of that. Makes total sense, and there’s really no downside.

  18. I spent a bit of time reading posts and subsequent comments on this site from when spring training ended. Oh the hope! Oh the naïveté! Sigh..

    • If anything, this season really highlights how far from AA’s dream of being a perennial contender we actually are, despite having one of the best hitters in baseball.

      • It took Pat Gillick 8 years to build a perennial contender. He was thrashed in the media and nicknamed Stand Pat because he wouldn’t make the big trade.

        I like what AA has done so far. It’s not time to make a big move yet or jack up payroll. I loved his team almost up until the all star break, before injuries took this season off the rails. Yeah, it sucks watching the jays lose games right now, but it’s not their time yet. It may be in 2013, but more likely in 2014. His work isn’t about instant gratification; this ain’t fantasy baseball.

        The calls for AA to be fired are a joke, especially in a city where Burke and Colangelo continue to draw a salary.

        • Was the CBA the same during Gillick’s time with respect to free agency/arbitration etc???

          It seems impossible to do an 8 year rebuild in this day & age.

          There is so much player turnover/drafts/arbitartion rules etc..

          • Oakville, I simply don’t understand you.

            If you get angry about fake Oakville posts, it would really help a lot if you remain consistent from post to post.

            Now you say it’s impossible to do an 8 year rebuild, but you want to fire AA because he has a worse record today than a few of JP’s teams?

          • That was kind of my point; a rebuild takes a while to achieve. Yes, it’s been rough watching the Jays shit the bed since the all star break, but what did you really expect, given all the injuries? Is it really AA’s fault for not getting a left fielder and a front line pitcher in the off season? The Jays would still be in the same boat; AA may be a ninja, but he ain’t god. Injuries are still going to happen.

        • +1 x 100000 other intelligent fans. Thank you

      • Uh no. This season highlights how injuries can ruin any chance of competing. I personally am thrilled about our bullpen. If Santos is half decent we will have a vicious bullpen. We have one of the best offences. We have lots of potential pitchers but could use (at least) one more top of the rotation guy.

        Health + better bullpen + one more top rotation pitcher + some luck = a much better looking team.

  19. I think the casual fans are off the bandwagon.

    I think the bandwagon’s gone over the Scarborough Bluffs.

    “Now everything’s a little upside down, as a matter of fact the wheels have stopped.”

    • That’s a key thin to watch.Look at attendance after august 15th & especially september to gauge casual fan attendance vs last year,

      TV ratings will be critical as well.

      Will fans tune in to see AA’s callups?

  20. Interesting post. I realize you qualified yourself by saying “severe”:
    1. Release Omar Vizquel?
    For a franchise who needs to attract FA’s in part by being one of the best player friendly teams is going to release a future hall of famer a few weeks before September roster expansion?
    A team that justified signing McGowan as a signal to other players that we take care of our own is going to dump a veteran who’s earned respect?
    A team that kept Snider on the bench (sacrificing his development) to give his at bats to Kevin Millar who they were scared would bad mouth them are going to unceremoniously release one of the most beloved and legendary Latin (Valenzuela I guess) players?
    Not going to happen unless Omar requests it.

    2.Agreed: Gose shouldn’t have a sniff of the show until September 2013. He should be great 2015 and beyond.

    3. Walk away from Happ? Seriously?
    Even if this was legit there’s no way AA would fold tent and show we gave up prospect depth for one AAA reliever. Rogers may be cheap, but they can afford a $3 million risk that the left-hander Happ can be effective. Most teams believe their coaches are the best and can turn a player around.
    If they walk away think of the ammunition they’d give the irrationalists:
    It would be a “Rogers is cheap” and “AA is clueless” double whammy!
    If you believe this, then I’ve got to ask why you think AA made the trade for the coveted Happ? If they walk away I’ll never understand why they did the trade.

    4 Agreed: Lind’s time here has passed. If only he liked putting in work and effort.

    5. Agreed: TDA should get a taste of being around major league players.

  21. It’s not like the Blue Jays weren’t 2.5 games out of a play-in game before Rogers changed their name to the 51s. It’s a good group of young talented players that has been decimated by injuries in an extremely unlucky and unpredictable manner. This year is a write-off, but there are so many more reasons to be excited about the future than there are to get down.

  22. I need a scotch.

    Additionally, I will be refocusing all of my deranged hopes henceforth on Moises Sierra. He will be the apple of my eye and the Randy Ruiz of my August/September Jays.

    • Those hopes are indeed deranged. Sierra is a space cadet. He’s only been up a couple weeks and he’s already made at least two bad play decisions because he didn’t know how many outs there were.

      • Just like the ol’ man! Adda boy!

      • Sierra really does look lost.
        Not impressed by his baseball IQ.
        It’s tough to teach instincts, and he doesn’t have it.
        Seems to have a decent bat and a good enough guy.
        Kind of reminds me of Manny being Manny out there though.

  23. Can I trademark the nickname AAsshole for when I eventually turn on him?

  24. Good work on the article. I especially agree with releasing Vizquel. I really do like the guy, but he just shouldn’t be on a 25-man roster at this stage of his career. There’s flashes of a decent bench player there at times, but not much else.

  25. For everyone who says AA is a failure, the Blue Jays are in shambles and his plan is a disaster look at the Texas Rangers at the same point into Jon Daniels’ tenor there – the 2008 season. That year, the Rangers finished 79-83 ( with actually a worse Pythagorean W-L of 76-86) and that was in a much, much weaker division than the 2012 AL East.

    Today, Daniels is now widely heralded as the one of the best GMs in the game and the Rangers are regaded as the model franchise but he is the same guy who traded away Adrain Gonzalez AND Chris Young away for practically nothing along with plenty of other blunders than aggravated fans (including trading Alfonso Soriano at his peak). In 2008, the Rangers had mediocre pitchers like Vicente Padilla in their rotation, along with some dude named Kason Gabbard.

    So GM’s make mistakes. Teams that are rebuilding, struggle. Scouting reports are wrong. Players get hurt. Others underperform.

    But from 2006 – 2009 during their struggles – Daniels stockpiled high ceiling, cheap talent with guys like Nelson Cruz, Josh Hamilton, Ian Kinsler, Elvis Andrus, CJ Wilson. It took nearly 5 years before Daniels and the Rangers were playoff bound and longer than that before they signed a big name free agent ( Adrian Beltre).

    so let’s give AA at least a few more years before we grab our pitchforks and run him out of town.

  26. Well let’s just look to the off-season quickly. Here are my five things the Jays ought to do in the off-season.

    1) Sign Scutaro to play 2B.
    I don’t think Hech is ready yet. Scutaro still has some game left in him. Would be a very nice stop-gap.

    2) Sign Big Papi to be DH.
    EE can handle 1B, and a big left-handed power bat would look awesome in between Jose and EE. I think he might have just about had enough in Boston with some of the things he has said, so he maybe willing to leave. Not sure Boston will offer him a qualifying offer either if it is a deal close to $16 million over one year for a DH. Plus he is apparently close friends with some of the Jays, like Jose. I think if you can get him for 2-years in the $28 million range, you ought to jump all over him.

    3) Cut Lind.
    Trade him, eating as much salary as it takes, and if no one wants him, just release him. I like Lind, and wish him success and hope in a new environment he can turn it around like Hill, but his time in Toronto is over and with my idea of signing Ortiz, there is no spot for him.

    4) Do your due diligence on Swisher as a free agent for LF.
    I’m not so sure how much Swisher would cost, but if it is anything more than say two years and $20 million, then pass. But if you can get him on a shorter deal, even if it is for example a one year deal at a high price ($14 million say and then a buyout on an option), he will fill the hole in LF until someone like Gose is ready. This option I think is unlikely though.

    5) Try to trade for another starter.
    I don’t like any of the free agent starters very much, besides Greinke (but he will cost too much), so explore trading for a guy like Garza. Obviously they’ve been doing this for a while now, and this is nothing new or radical, but try to pull the trigger on a deal that lands us someone like Garza.

    • Totally, let’s sign David Ortiz and Nick Swisher. Why hasn’t anyone else thought of that? We should probably do our due diligence on Josh Hamilton and Justin Verlander, too, while we’re poking around.

    • There’s a zone between calling for the guy’s head and being a clapping, cheering mouth-breather no matter what the fuck happens and that’s where most fans should be.

      There’s fucking nothing wrong with expectations. When this team is healthy and on they can go up against anyone, but can you really say that AA did everything he could to ensure that they would be able to hang around? Did he honestly for one second expect McGowan to still be pitching at this point? Are we still willing to sit here and hope for best-case-scenarios out of questionable, cheap free agent talent? These should be legitimate questions in fan and front office minds. What’s wrong with that?

      I’m sure a packed house cheering for laundry no matter what is an ownership’s wet dream, but the fact of the matter is this is a fair weather market and justifiably so. Deal with that reality.They’ve pushed a bunch of flashback bullshit in our faces, re-hired a beloved ex-manager, changed the unis back.. . They’re running out of gimmicks. Winning isn’t a gimmick.

      If Anthopolous wants to be a good Rogers employee and preach patience, fuck around with minor moves and hope for a miracle, fine. He just shouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t fly, the numbers start to dry up and he’s out on his ass. I’m not down for Tomo Ohka, John Patterson and Vincent Zambrano round two. Should I be?

      Sack up, ask for the dough and spend it better than JPR did. I trust him, just not as much as I once did.

      • Given the fact that they signed McGowan to a deal in the spring, I’d say yes, they definitely did expect him to be pitching. Why do you think they signed him?

      • Brilliant post Brett!!.

        It’s true that AA didn’t give us a solid 90 win team on paper.

        90 wins was the max possibility in 2012.

        Unfortunately, AA has developed a cult like following so any criticism of him or Rogers is verboeten.

        AA has made some good trades & saved Rogers money with dumping Wells.

        If we assume he makes 500K a year, saving 24 million a year by dumping Wells is a good investment by Rogers.

        It’s fascinating to see the blind loyalty some posters have developed for a GM who has won 85/81/ 70-75 ??? wins in 3 years of mgmt.

        AA is having his hands tied by Rogers, but if he wants he could quit & try & find another job somewhere else.

  27. i say we trade Lurch Mcguire AND Adam Lind for 7 weeks of a currently injured Shaun Marcum. Lets face it, Mcguire was a shitty pick at the time….Chris Sale anyone?….and is proving even more shitty now. Bring Marcum back to help salvage the last month and convince him to sign a 3 year 25mm deal with 2 club options on the back end once he realizes how much he missed Pappy and being a Village Peopleish staff leader. Pitch Like a Man!!!

    • Marcum is probably the only free agent pitcher that would be willing to return to Toronto.

      Unfortumtely, his injury history & relatively poor performancr against the big 3 in the AL east would be drawbacks.
      The “flu like symptoms/party lifestyle” would also be a negative.

      For AA. Marcum is the safest bone to throw to the casual fans. He would help the team & I would be happy to see him back.

      • Are there many former Blue Jays who are free agents? Isn’t Marcum the only one who could “return”?

        Relatively poor performance? Relative to who/what?
        I don’t know the stats, so I have no idea if you’re right, but I always thought he was one of our better pitchers against the AL east.

        He’s two year’s older so hopefully more mature and won’t have those flue like symptoms. Then again, you’re 43 so clearly age doesn’t mean maturity. I keed, I keed.

        I’d like to see Marcum back.

  28. I tried posting this twice using a different browser and it crashed it both times..it is a negative comment..is that why??You say to play Adeiny Hechavarria,why?I checked on the latest stats and this is what I saw..4 games..11 at bats..1 hit(a single) and 5 strikeouts!How is that better than what they have playing now??

  29. Also,i went quickly through the comments and did not see a comment about getting rid of the entire training staff..what the hell is with all these injuries?It seems they might not notice little things or if they do they let them go until it becomes major..just too many this year to be an accident.

    • I’ll do you one better and say get rid of the batting coach Dwayne Murphy.

      • Hey fire Murphy!

        He sucks! He takes all this credit for helping turn around Bautista, Edwing and Rasmus but they would have done it on their own, even if they hadn’t done so with previous organizations!

        Fire Murphy!
        Our offence was the best in baseball if judging by runs scored which is what it takes to win ball games. What people need to realzie is how many more runs we would have scored with anyone other than Murphy!
        I bet with these hitters we could have broken records!

        Hire Mottorola!
        Feared hitters like Gose and Hech have become fearful hitters under Murphy! Hire Motorola ! He turned them into true hitters playing in that tough pitching league PCL.

  30. I have no problem with them letting Vizquel go at this stage of the season. I’ve said all along that Hech would make a perfectly acceptable utility guy next season assuming a better second baseman could be had. Save all the “yeah but you’re costing him development time in the minors stuff”. I’ve been a firm believer that if the playing time is at least semi-regular he’ll do just as well learning at the major league level vs the best competition and with with the best coaching staff. The merits of having him at the major league level are there in cost savings for the club and experience for him. As for the rest of this season I would happily be resting Johnson and Escobar every other day to get him games or at least get him in at the end of games every day. I, like a lot of people, thought Johnson might be a keeper. With more than enough time to recover from his hamstring injury it doesn’t look to be the case now for the money he is going to ask for this winter.

    As for Gose I am kind of on the fence with him. If Center Field is his position of the future and Colby is better suited for a corner outfield spot then I don’t see the delay in beginning the process. However, after listening to some other things scouts said about his swing maybe it’s time to just bite the bullet and fix it now. I know there’s still issues with his hands and leg kick. As I mentioned yesterday I thought a better way to go about getting another starter would be to go after someone like Bourn for Center or even a Cabrera for Left and then use Gose or Marisnik as a center piece for a starting pitcher. The cost in dollars would be less than forking over $20+ million a year for a front line starter and using Gose or Marisnik as a center piece would allow you to retain more of your pitching depth.

    Speaking of trades. I would do my best to make such a move before Happ’s arbitration comes due and include him as major league ready pitching going back the other way in a trade for a top starter. Even if you have to take the risk and pay him it’s not such an amount that would really hurt the payroll. If I am stuck with him to start the season he ends up being my swing guy out of the pen whether he likes it or not. I am definitely not a fan and the trade with Houston looks worse every day in hindsight. Obviously I was against it at first but I’m not going to say I told you so now. I get why AA made the move but the additional injuries just negated the desperation that it was made in. At least they have some upside in Carpenter going forward.

    As for Lind I have no problem holding onto him for the rest of the season. If he’s back for the last 6 weeks of the season and hits like he did for the last month then he’s reasonably priced. Of course I would definitely like to limit his AB’s vs Lefties going forward and would ideally try and find a right handed power bat to platoon him with. If he comes back and shits the bed then yes by all means eat his contract and cut him lose. He could be another guy that just needs a change of scenery. Maybe you could trade him eat a portion of his contract and a get a low minors type of lottery ticket prospect for him. At least you’d get something back.

    As for d’Arnaud like others I see no need to start his clock at this point in the season. Normally I have nothing but disdain for service time issues when there’s something to play for earlier in the season. That is not the case now. If anything let him rest another few weeks before sending him off to Arizona. Next year I’d have him with the big league club. He could possibly be the right handed platoon bat to go with Lind at DH. It might not be ideal but if payroll becomes a concern it’s a great cost savings and gets him a lot more playing time.

    Come September I would also like to see McGuire and Stroman up for sure with possibly Dyson. Jenkins looked pretty good and hopefully he can keep it up.

    Last but not least for those crying that AA should be fired or whatever I think you need to get your heads examined. Again just look at the numbers on the injury front. 60% of the opening day starters gone. Almost 40% of your pen injured. Throw in horrible regressions from guys like Romero and Coco and you’re just fucked. Yet some how the team still managed to stay right around .500 for most of the season. It wasn’t until we lost nearly half our starting lineup of hitters that things really hit the fan. Remember this teams payroll was what $80 million to start the year? Look at where Boston is with a similar list of injuries and a payroll double ours. Throw in a developmental gap with our prospects and there’s your recipe for disaster. You could almost rename 2012 the Year of Lemony Snicket – a year of unfortunate events.

  31. TDA.

    The learning curve for catchers is a long and painful one. Look at Weiters, his first season was just painful. I think platooning JPA and TDA isn’t the worst thing in the world. You have to admit JPA is one likeable player. I wonder what his trade value is right now? Mathis worked out pretty good…..

    And I still think McGowan can come back and contribute down the road!

  32. Realistically the Jays weren’t gonna compete this year no matter how much many of you wanted them to. Next year pretty much looks the same.

    Hech, Gose and TDA are core pieces but will need time to establish themseves. The only way AA is gonna find top end pitching is if he deals his future studs. If AA dealt any of his Lansing 3 for Garza he would be shit on by most of you guys in a matter of time.

    There’s no save the world free agents coming to T.O. this off season either. So basically trading Bautista for useful pieces seems like AA’s best option. Say for Miller and Tavares on STL or Upton and Bauer on AZD. Then shoot for 14 15 playoffs when the next crop of prospects are ready to step up

    • And those three are key pieces because? I agree all have promising write ups on various baseball publications but is that really good enough to trade a superstar and build a core around? No way in hell I’m saying they don’t have promise, but please.

      Jose is a top 3 hitter in baseball. Best power hitter. He could regress to top 10, top 20, top 30 etc over the life of his deal and still be a steal. I would be livid if he was traded. His extension is probably the jewel in the crown of Alex’s entire tenure thus far IMO. He’s a marketable, legitimate star calibre MLB player who appears to like it here. If they trade Jose and we watch 10ish years of shitty baseball there won’t be a fan alive in any market that doesn’t pillory him and rightfully so.

      • Agreed. AA went on & on about Bautista as a human being when he resigned him to the extension.

        AA won’t backstab Bautista to satisfy the “hipster geek crowd” by trading him without his approval.

        Keith Law’s rankings will not determine how a major league franchise is run.

        Keith should stick to making pithy comments about prospects with little responsibility if he is wrong.

  33. You want a radical idea? Here’s one: Trade Jose Bautista this off-season for the biggest package of controllable assets you can get.

    It’s reasonable to believe he’s going to lose value from here until the end of his contract in 2015, by which time most of the rest of the roster is going to be just hitting their collective stride. At this point he is a marketing campaign poster, and a damn good one, but he’s squandering his best years on a team that will maybe compete for the AL East title in 2014, not realistically before.

    Bautista is a good guy, and without question among the best hitters in the game. He could have won the MVP last season, and had he played in NY or BOS he may very well have. But having the best hitter in the league on a team that is scrapping for a playoff spot (which is, realistically, where the Jays will be next year, even with the acquisition of a true ace starter) is a waste of such a valuable asset. He is seen as having among the highest trade value in the big leagues now, and won’t have it for long.

    His greatest value to a competing team is in the lineup and in RF. His greatest value to a team in the midst of development is as a trade chip. Move him now and realize that asset’s value.

    • Agreed, won’t happen though.

      • Trading the franchise player would set the franchise back a few years.

        Jays would be the laughingstock of MLB for trading Bautista for “prospects”

        This team has enough trouble attracting players, & Bautista has helped keep Escobar & Edwin at very team friendly contracts.

        Bautista will decide when he wants to leave the Jays.

        • Agree with this too Oak

        • sorry, but the face of the franchise is not jose..its lawrie. that is a fucking laughable but true fact. the fans can much more easily swallow a trade of bautista than that of lawrie.

          you also dont give a rats ass if you are the “laughing stock” of baseball, all you should care about is if the move makes sense for your team and their specific situation.

          did people laugh at texas when they traded texiera for elvis andrus, neftali feliz, matt harrison, and salty?

        • Unless you trade him for MLB ready young stars. Which I still feel will not happen until the last year of his contract if the Jays are not close to a playoff spot.

          • If you wait until the last year of his contract that would be a mistake.

            1. If AA is to keep his job we need to make the playoffs in/by that year. We’re not going to trade JoeyB when we should be in WS contention. From a Jays timing perspective this offseason is the ideal time to trade him.

            2. In light of his age, and a potentially power sapping wrist injury, as a player he will likely not have as much trade value as he does today. I’m concerned he’ll be exposed as a 20-25 HR guy next year. I really hope he fully recovers and returns to his form, but I’m not sure he will.

            3. One of the most attractive things about Joey to team management is that contract. So from a team payroll view Joey B has the greatest value now, not when his contract is about to expire.

            It would be sad to see him go. I think he makes the perfect face of the franchise and I credit him more than anyone with rejuvenating fan interest. I couldn’t imagine going through this rebuilding phase without him and his excitement.

  34. As long as Alomar is a member of the Blue Jays front office, Vizquel will have a job as a Blue Jay.

  35. It would worry me to start the season with D’Arnaud as the #1 catcher. But I wonder if trading JPA in the off-season as part of a package could bring back a quality starting pitcher. I’m sure there’s lots of teams that could use him.

    I can pretty much agree with everything else except the Happ thing. I think it’s way to early to give up on him. Even if he struggles this year, he could be useful out of the pen as the long man, or as depth in AAA.

  36. I do not agree with your assessment that Rasmus would be a below average LFer. He would likely have an average bat for the position (average LFer has a 105 wRC+, Rasmus 104 for his career and 107 this year), and would have well above defense for the position. He would not be an all-star by any stretch of the imagination, but would be an above average player for the position.

  37. Agree with points 1,2,4 ; lukewarm on TDA coming up to learn the staff, disagree on happ; he is a cheap fill in for injuries or shitty pitching at only 2.5 million.

  38. At this point I feel like cutting ties with Happ would be a mistake. We should at least give him a Rasmusesque mulligan on his time in Toronto this season. I am all for punting Lind, though to qualify, his AB’s should go to Cooper. I swear that guy can be a productive hitter If given the chance!

    • Agreed on Happ. Disagree on Lind. Knowing the Jays Luck , Edwin may get hurt so you need a fill in at 1B.

      Besides I can’t see Rogers authorising a 9,9 million cheque for DFA’ing him.

      Good job by AA to have club options for Lind’s contract. Buyout costs seem high at 3.5 million.

      • Rogers authorized cheques for 5.5M to Teahen, 10M to BJ Ryan, 6M to the Phillies in the Halladay trade, and about 3M to Juan Rivera. I don’t see any reason why they wouldn’t be willing to do the same with Lind if the Jays front office feels its best for the team.

        • The cheue to BJ Ryan was more than 10 million, but no way AA gets a black mark on his record .

          Put Lind on the bench if you are woried about his at bats.

          The 5 million DFA for Teahan is OK because it was teh cost of getting Colby.

          Lind is not blocking anyone.

          Cooper isn’t that much better than Lind.

  39. “the club let Cito keep pointlessly putting free-agent-to-be John Buck in the lineup”

    No point at all except for the very real possibility that he thought the young pitchers would be better off working with the eperienced catcher who’d been in the AL all season. Developing the pitchers is fairly important. Everyone just forgets about them. At any rate, it’s certainly far more likely than the deeply stupid idea that Cito thought some games in September 2010 would affect his legacy. He’s got two WS rings. His legacy is pretty safe.

    • I think Cito wanted to help Buck pad stats so he could get another good contract which he did from the Marlins.

      Cito takes care of vets.

  40. Disagree on 1. Vizquel is useless, but there’s no point in cutting him this late in the season, not when there’s no pressing need to bring anyone up from the minors (who, McCoy?), Wait for rosters to expand, hand him a coach’s jacket, and wave goodbye at the end of the year. Maybe give him one last token PH at-bat in the last home game of the season.

    Benching KJ wouldn’t be an awful idea though.

    Rest I’m either neutral on, or agree with; especially with the caveat that we haven’t seen nearly enough on Happ to make a judgement, not that he’s been any good in the limited we have seen.

    • AA will avoid a public relations disaster by DFA’ing a future HOF like Visquel especially 3 weeks before roster’s are expanded.

      It’s a different story if the Jays are 1 game out of a playoff spot & need help on the roster.

  41. Got tickets to game in Detroit next coming road trip…defs not what I was hoping to see as far as players go. Hopefully Bats will be back by then to provide some excitement. I guess it will be cool to see Comerica Park anyways, never been. Front row seats by Jays on deck circle :)

  42. Lawrie is out for the season so there’s no need to DFA Vizquel. They will probably need him if there are more injuries.

    Gose should be sent down but with Bautista being out for the season as well won’t be. Even if he was coming back, at this point it may be better not to burn an option if it’s only a few days until rosters expand and Gose would likely be up again anyway.

    Completely agree on cutting ties with Lind. Should have happened a year ago. Oakville, I’m sure Rogers is/will be just as pissed off about the colossal waste of $9.9M incurred by having Lind on the active roster (or in AAA, or on the DL) if we keep him for another year as they would be if we cut ties now. It’s not like they don’t know how much we’re paying him right now. There is no chance we get any kind of production out of him, and Farrell can’t be trusted to use him responsibly. We ate Teahen’s deal this spring, with one year remaining. Next year Teahen is off the books and we can do the same thing and eat Lind’s deal, with one year left.

    Disagree on non-tendering Happ. As shitty as he is, we’re going to need him next year. There are no new starters or relievers coming via FA or trade so right now so right now our staff looks like this:

    1: Morrow (good for 10-12 starts before injury)
    2. Corpse of Romero (DFA candidate by mid-season if he’s as bad as he’s been)
    3: Alvarez (should be in minors, likely to be injured at some point)
    4: Laffey (had one half-decent trip around the league, likely to be worse than Jojo in 2013)
    5: Happ (garbage, but possibly the best of this bunch other than Morrow)

    Janssen (good)
    Lincoln (decent)
    Delabar (shit)
    Loup (shit)
    Beck (shit)
    Cecil (shit)
    No idea who shitbag #7 is–maybe Dyson (shit)

    Santos isn’t coming back. Oliver will either retire or be dealt. Possible they deal Janssen too if they think they can get anything back for him. Jays will be too cheap to resign Carlos as he will command a much higher price than Happ, and can’t be relied on for more than 10 or so starts anyway. Jenkins should be starting in AA, as should McGuire and pretty much any other depth starter candidate they might pull out of the minors (other than Shawn Hill, who I’m surprised hasn’t been called up yet).

    Meh on bringing up TDA. If they think there’s value in doing it and it doesn’t completely fuck up his service time, sure. At this point in the season JPA likely isn’t coming back either, and it’s not a good idea to deal a player who hasn’t played since coming off the DL. So it’s got to be JPA/Gomes probably until next year’s deadline, therefore no rush on TDA.

    Completely agree with trading Bautista. By now I suspect he wants out anyway and I’m sure Rogers would love to free up the payroll. It can be spun as him asking for a trade and AA doing the right thing to help the player a la Halladay. The fans will still be angry, as they were when Doc was dealt, but I’m sure AA can explain it away as all part of the building process, and throw in some prospect porn.

    Another smart move would be to fire Farrell and the coaching staff. Farrell has been abysmal–worse than last year–and none of the coaches deserve to keep their jobs after this year’s display. Start fresh with new guys.

    • Terrible post.

    • idiot

      I’d explain why but it’s really not necessary.

    • Seriously. You’re smoking fucking crack.

    • wow…loup is shit? wtf? lincoln is decent? delabar is shit? the pen is the only thing this team has going for it…its certainly not shitty. its just not a good situation when it is the best part of your team.

    • Wow. Never did someone take so long to say such shit. We trade Bautista and fire Farrell and the entire coaching staff. We DFA Ricky. The one guy we should hang our hat on is Happ. Good luck selling tickets with this plan. Every time I think I’ve read the craziest post ever, another one comes along. You sir have just moved up to the number one position.

    • Hey Ginger, try watching the games before formulating your opinions of players. It really helps!

  43. Not the only place where 2012 baseball will likely be remembered for disappointment:


  44. Stoeon trading Snider in your mind was a bad move and now releasing Happ based on salary is a good idea. You really are drunk

  45. Mission accomplished Stoeten.

  46. Here are things I would do right now:

    1 – sign bobby abreu. He’s lost power but he can still walk and this team needs any decent hitter and a veteran presence would help.

    2 – I was going to say sign podsednik but the red sox just beat me to it. The guy was raking and would have been a big help. I’m sure alex offered him his typical cheapskate minor league deal.

    3 – call up mike mccoy. mccoy played moderately well last year and showed an ability to walk. He’s going to give you a lot better defense than omar and can actually run.

    4 – sign johnny damon. even though he’s not hitting well, he’s probably still a better hitter than what gose is giving you.

    5 – fire the hitting and pitching coaches and training staff. their ranking have been pretty bad the past couple years. time for a change. coaches are expendable. training staff are supposed to help prevent injuries. they didn’t. tired of hearing what a great job they do. try someone else.

    regardless of anyone’s thought of seeing what the kids can do. the fact is you can get away with this shitshow on the road but you won’t be able to pull this shit off at home. fans are paying their hard earned money to watch major league talent, not get blown out every game. if this shitshow continues, there’s going to be rioting in the dome and more scathing articles from griff, plumetting attendance, horrible tv ratings. you can’t just sweep this under the rug.

  47. Interesting article (which is of course pure speculation) – here’s my 2cents (or is it 5cents with 5 reasons – meh)

    1. Release Omar Vizquel and bench Kelly Johnson for Adeiny Hechavarria.

    Omar Vizquel will not be released before the end of the season. The BJs got him to replace the infield mentoring skills of Johnny Mac and he is more valuable in that role because he speaks Spanish. I believe this will be his last season in MLB as a player and someone is already lining up a coaching spot for him next year. It will look really good for the future of the Jays if that position is within their organization.

    There has already been talk about platooning Hech with Johnson, Escobar, and Lawrie for the remainder of the season in order to rest those players and give him more playing and position time at the various infield positions. So far he has looked pretty good filling in for Lawrie defensively, I’d like to see how he fills in at 2nd Base, and he needs to work on his hitting.

    2. Send Anthony Gose back to Las Vegas

    And replace him with who? Right now he is filling in for Bautista and when JB is ready to return to the lineup Gose will probably be returned to the minors with the added experience that he has gained during this time. This is intended as a learning experience for him – it comes at a cost to the Jays right now, but only the really naive or hopelessly optimistic believe that the Jays can recover enough from the injuries to contend this year.

    3. Get Prepared to Walk Away from JA Happ

    Have some faith. Would you have said the same about Colby Rasmus at this point last year or Brandon Morrow two years ago? Let’s see if AA’s instincts about Happ are as accurate as they were about Morrow and Rasmus before we go cutting losses that haven’t occurred.

    4. Eat Whatever Salary You Have To In Dealing Adam Lind

    I agree (reluctantly). In a lot of ways what people accuse the Jays of doing to Snider also happened to Lind during the beginning of his career. Lind did show a lot of promise and even after his last return from the minors it appeared that AA’s shock therapy was working (he did almost the same thing with EE if you will recall and we see the positive results this season). In this particular case, however, I believe that AA’s tactics were designed to improve Lind’s trading value. Lind’s time with Toronto is now redundant since he can’t do more than DH/1B and Cooper has demonstrated that he can fill that position more effectively (not that I am saying Cooper should replace Lind, just that Cooper is more capable than Lind at filling the same need right now). Lind will probably be dealt somewhere during the offseason – maybe to Arizona so they can replace Overbay ;)

    5. Bring Up an Injured Travis d’Arnaud

    You’re fucking nuts (but actually it is probably the only suggestion that you made that qualifies as radical). First bringing him up to fill a position while he is still injured is a waste of time. If you are suggesting that he can use that opportunity to get to know the pitchers – he should know them from catching them in the minors. If you are suggesting that he can learn how to operate as a catcher at the MLB level – he can’t do that unless he is playing. Catch 22.

    Suggesting that he is ready to be the #1 catcher next season is also fucking nuts. First of all, a knee injury to a Catcher is a very serious injury – it can ruin their careers at that position. Let’s see if he can recover from the injury sufficiently before we decide that he will be our starting catcher. Second, minor league numbers do not equivocate to major league numbers – there is absolutely no guarantee that he will be as good a hitter at the major league level as he was in the minors (or even post injury). Third, developing a catcher at the major league level to handle major league pitching can take years, JPA has already spent three years at it and while he may not be good at it I can almost guarantee that he is better than TDA, so unless you are willing to deal JPA and have Mathis as the starting catcher with TDA backing him up for a year I suggest you dream up other fantasies.

    • Well holy fuck,absolutely nailed it on every point, EMike..
      Some common sense finally and well explained.
      My thoughts exactly ,although you expressed it better than I would.
      Especially about D’Arnaud.Stoeten’s either fishing for pageviews or totally lost his fucking mind,again.

      As for your two cents, I’ll give you a quarter in advance for your future comments.

  48. AA has to shoulder a lot of blame this season. Injuries simply expose how weak your depth is. Here are things he could have doon earlier that would have made a difference.

    1 – sign jayson nix. the guy has power vs lefties and can play defense

    2 – sign brandon inge off waivers. another veteran hitter who can play defense

    3 – signing a veteran starter

    signing guys like mathis, omar, francisco was a complete joke

  49. 1) Hech can’t hit. Its pretty clear watching him in a handful of games the bat is nonexistent. Plus, he has a small frame and reminds me of a slap hitting middle infielder. He can improve but im not impressed at all with the bat. Releasing vizquel is completely irrelevant and wont make any impact on the team whatsoever.
    2) Gose cant hit as well. To be honest, im kind of mad AA brought up hech and gose and exposed them at the major league level when its pretty clear based on their minor league numbers that they cant hit. It lessens their trade value a bit in the offseason. Might as well bring in dewayne wise instead.
    3) Meh, if its for $3M or 4M i say keep happ for depth. Dont think you have to do anything radical. What about signing villanueva to a 3yr/9-12M extension? Thats more radical and something i would do. The guy is a top 5 pitcher on this staff easily even with morrow and romero not being shit.
    4) Agreed. Time to say goodbye to lind. The jays have relied on him and been fucked over for too long.
    5) Who gives a shit if darnaud is here if he cant play. Although, I do agree that I would have him start next yr over arencibia. Not a fan of jp and his abysmal obp. The team needs more obp and one of the weak links is catcher.

    A couple more suggestions:
    1) Staple r davis’s ass to the bench and ONLY use him for pinch running. Hes an awful, awful hitter and avg at best defender. I cant watch him anymore. I hope hes the 5th OF next yr. I cant believe some ppl thought he had trade value and they were showcasing him for a trade after his hot 2-3 weeks.
    2)What about signing villanueva to a 3yr/9-12M extension? Thats more radical and something i would do. The guy is a top 5 pitcher on this staff easily even with morrow and romero not being shit.

    • with davis it would be okay if his offense was decent, like Bautista, but his defense is worse than Bautista. He should not be starting.

      At least with Gose and his crappy offense you get quality defense, comparatively I value Gose higher on the major league level than Rajai, Rajai cant play defense, Gose can.

      I think Stoeten is right on Vizquel, his inability to play multiple back to back nights, has forced KJ, and Escobar to keep starting when you can clearly tell that they are injured. The mistake, with Hech, was not that he was brought up but he should have been playing the 4th infielder/ utility role all season to gain some big league experience.

      If I was the jays I would report Gose and Hech, to the winter league did wonders for EE this year.

      • The Jays are just trying to get through the season at this point. They should not be running Gose and Hech out there. They should be putting out fucking Yan Gomes and Rajai Davis (maybe Sierra). Bringing Gose up to fucking sit him is so retarded… I have no idea where to begin. This kid needs to play fucking every day. Let’s face it, Hech and Gose really don’t have a spot on this team imo. I can see Rasmus being in CF and Yunel being our SS for a few more years at least. He should have left Gose and Hech at AAA and traded them in the offseason. By bringing them to the Majors, it is now not a question whether or not they can hit in the Majors, it’s a fucking fact.

        They should have never traded for that piece of shit Happ. What a waste of valuable, finite resources (prospects). They couldn’t fucking convince Pittsburgh to send over Correia in the Snider trade? What the fuck?

  50. Here is something radical the Jays should try doing…. GET RID OF THE FRIED CHICKEN AND BEER!

    oh and start hitting.
    and stop getting hurt.

  51. #1 – Let Gose & Hech play every day – These two need their 150 at-bats in majors this
    year, let them work on their hitting in off-season and see if in Spring Training next
    year, they are ready or need another year in minors
    #2 – Pitch Happ every 5th day – We need a sample size to know whether he can be a #4
    or #5 next year. It is a waste to pitch him out of the pen
    #3 – If we can deal Lind for anything – do it… We need more production out of 1st or DH
    (the other half with EE) than Lind will ever give us
    #4 – Consider shutting down Romero.. It feels to me like something is wrong with him
    physically -more damage could be done if there is.

  52. A lot of people on here want the Jays to sign David Ortiz for next year. Given the year he’s having, I doubt he comes on anything less than a 2 year contract. He’s getting pretty fucking old already. He could, literally, fall off a cliff any day now. Personally, I’d rather see what it would take to get Morneau. For me, he’s a nice change of scenery candidate. A fuck ton younger than David Ortiz (or five years anyways). Personally, I like the odds of a Morneau rebound (in our ball park) more than the odds of David Ortiz maintaining his current level of production for the next two years. But if Ortiz comes for one year? Then sure. I just wouldn’t touch a second year.

    • http://www.fangraphs.com/statsplits.aspx?playerid=1737&position=1B&season=2012

      The motherfucker can’t hit Left Handed pitching. It’s the same fucking scenario as Lind. Yeah, he’s a nice rebound candidate He’s owed fucking 14 million next year and will struggle to have a 2 WAR season. Then he’s an FA in 2014. Plus you’re going to have to give up prospects. Fuck that noise. If we’re going to trade away depth for a DH, it needs to be someone with a more consistent record of both performance and health, coupled with more years of control.

      Billy Butler may be someone that could be targeted with two more years of control at 8 million a piece, plus a 12.5 million club option for 2015. However, I really don’t fucking see Adam Lind being released. If they can find a trading partner, great. But if they can’t, expect to see him back with the club next year.

    • I think that’s crazy, personally. Ortiz started to dip a couple years back and has worked himself back into being the game’s elite DH. I don’t see where this horrible fall off a cliff is coming from, and Morneau can’t touch lefties at all right now, so he’s a platoon guy.

      That said, he’s been crushing right-handers more and more as the season has gone along, so I wouldn’t completely turn up my nose at him, but I’d definitely bet on Ortiz over the next couple years at least.

      • I’m just scared by the age thing, Stoeten. That’s it. Some guys digress slowly. Others fall off a cliff. Guys in their late 30′s scare me. (Maybe it’s because I am one now, and I can’t play a game of pick-up soccer without pulling a fucking hamstring!) Agreed on Morneau’s splits though. Butler would be awesome, but that would take a huge fucking haul to get. I was thinking Morneau would come pretty cheaply (in terms of prospects). But what do I know? I’m just a guy.

  53. If the Jays were to let Happ go in order to save money, who is going to be in the rotation next year? Romero and Morrow for sure, and I’m hesitant to add Henderson Alvarez to that list. Drabek and Hutch are not due back until at least the second half next year and there’s no guarantee Villanueva comes back as a free agent. So what are we left with? Cecil, Laffey, McGuire, Villanueva (if he comes back cheap), and the possibility of a free agent who will sign for less than what Happ should make in arbitration ($3-4 million)?

    Letting Happ go would also make that trade look even more ridiculous, seven players for two expiring contracts (Lyon and Happ, if the Jays cut ties) and a minor league reliever…

    I’m pretty much in favour of the other suggestions. Lind needs to go, be it via trade with the Jays eating his contract, or outright releasing him, it would at least give him time to rest his constantly aching back. Vizquel has been a wasted roster spot but getting rid of him now isn’t going to do much at this point, might as well let him ride out the rest of the season before considering hiring him on as some kind of infield coach or something (a job that wont take up a roster spot).

    • How do you figure they would be limited to only a free agent who makes what Happ does? I think they’d sign someone to a contract they felt matched their production, but the issue is whether Happ is worth his salary, and if he struggles in the AL East and looks like you’re going to be paying him $3-million to be in Vegas, maybe not?

      The point there is precisely to not do what you’re suggesting: hold on to him only to save face on the trade.

      • For the record, Asher I’m-not-even-going-to-attempt-his last-name is looking alright right now in AA (sss, obvs.)

  54. Clean yourself up anthony gose, you’re a mess.

  55. you’re an idiot if you think happ should be released to save money. 3 million is too much? you mean like the 4 mil on mcgowan? if you can’t afford a few million you shouldn’t own a baseball team. that’s coffee and donut money for rogers. with all the decimation of injuries you need guys like happ. or maybe you’d rather have chavez. happ is an asset and you can always flip him again for a prospect you want.

    • Release JA Happ after we just traded some top 20 org prospects for his ass? That makes no fucking sense. And due to the injury history this year, you don’t think the Jays want some him to maybe hang around “just in case”?

  56. maybe 3 posts on here were sane. the rest of you should stop smokin whatever the fuck you were smokin. the jays injuries to the pitchers are so long term they are fucked next year too unless they buy. there is no trade value really significant with the 3 kids. they look horrible at the plate and because of the injuries this year they have now been exposed as weaker than stated. ortiz for 2 years isnt so bad if thats what it takes. he hasnt shit the bed at all and he wants dough to leave boston.show it to him. happ needs to stay at least til trade deadline next yr.no choice at all.cabrera is another show me the money for LF next year. sign 2 starters and the jays look good. not much depth for injuries but fuck at least the holes are plugged.for you jose trade fodder nuts, fuck off.the guy is entertainment.

  57. to any dumbass who thinks rookie year performance equal continued big league success, all I have to say is Eric Fucking Hinske!!!!

    To those who say Gose will never be a good hitter, fuck off Jose Bautista, first year at 24 he hit a grand total of 0 home runs, 2 rbi and had a batting avg of .205
    he also had 40 so in 95 ab

    • Awesome, you successfully identified two athletes from the last decade. MUST BE A PATTERN.

      • no Drew not showing it as a pattern, but look at two athletes who rookie season did not equal there success or lack there of afterward. Nice, to see that the Scores money goes to your guys head instead of common sense.

  58. I agree with most of what you said. I’d want to see Happ more before writing him off, like you said.

    I can’t wait to see D’Arnaud up here.

    Thoughts on dumping Lind, making EE the everyday 1B and signing Big Papi as DH? You could do a lot worse than Ortiz, methinks.

  59. Apparently the weed is cheap and plentiful in T.O. ! So that’s why they call it the big smoke hey stoeten. Just a tip buddy but dont drink and blog ….

  60. Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy shit with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I’ll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger ’til it goes “click.”

  61. 440315 817818I believe this really is among the most vital information for me. And i

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