Holy piss, it’s a little perfect outside, isn’t it? Which is totally why I’m not going to bother agonizing over a bunch of words that everybody is just going to skim past in order to go piss and moan in the comments about the latest affront to our loyalty that’s coming by way of the Toronto Blue J-AAA-ys. This is your Game Threat…

Comments (285)

  1. Even the anthem singer is AAA! She’s about to feature in … like … The New MiniPops or something…

  2. Milli villinueva

  3. Cant wait to get me som REBA this fall!

  4. nice catch cleeeeeetus!

    so Villanueva is most likely back in a Jays uniform next year, no? I believe he is only a free agent if AA choses not to sign him or go through arbitration? it would suck to lose solid pitching depth that we will almost certainly need in 2013.

  5. He’s a UFA–AA can offer him a contract, but he needn’t accept it.

  6. perfect day and no tabby and buck. yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

  7. Hey! FIRE IT UP! FIRE IT UP! FIRE IT UP! FIRE IT UP!

  8. i think the way zaun is talking about villaneuva going to FA ,he dislikes AA being such a cheap bastard. i am so glad ballplayers dont holdout on their contract like NFL players do.jose could pull it off

  9. unless AA is planning on bringing in 3+ new starters he better make a good offer for Villanueva. That he isn’t signed right now leads me to believe either AA lowballed or Villanueva wants to try starting on another (possibly better) team

    • Well he IS a UFA this winter. It’s just not a good idea to sign without seeing who’s interested. It could mean a few million extra dollars. This is his big payday.

  10. Why on earth would you give Gose (of all people) a 4 pitch walk? Go figure.

  11. Let’s make Oswalt pay through the nose again.

  12. How the hell does Oswalt, a veteran, get nailed for 2 balks in a game this late in his career?

  13. Good heads up EE!

  14. Eddie should be on 3rd.

  15. oops EE not heads up on that wild pitch

  16. yunel has been frustrating to watch this year.

  17. Not very pretty, and now we pay big-time. Carlos was pissed.

    • It was quite ugly. I’m sitting in right and people are killing Gose. I mean, he fucked up, but there’s some pretty nasty stuff getting hurled down. And one well-informed fan yelling “Where’s Jose?” over and over…so, there is that…

  18. Gose just fucked the game.

  19. The score should be 2-2 right now.

  20. : ‘ [

    tough break for gose on the fly ball. carlos threw a shitty pitch on that home run

    • He was in a shitty mood.

    • He also didn’t look all that great on the Hamilton FB to right. He’s clearly fighting the sun or something. His range with Rasmus is unbelievable though (and looks effortless)!

      • When u guys wanna head out to right and try to catch big league flyballs without being able to see we can talk but no amount of oakleys and necklaces can block out the sun…

  21. Farrell should be fired! everyone knows Gose is a centre fielder – he shouldn’t be in right!

  22. Billy Crystal… I crap bigger than him.

  23. Can Gose make amends?

  24. I don’t mind the bunt because Hech is a douple play candidate and it is only a one run game

  25. Ashby questioning strategy and analyzing the actual plays = awesome. Very refreshing.

    And I love how he hates bunting.

    • Alan doesn’t fawn, that’s for sure.

    • It is refreshing..Buck would have said “Boy..Tabby what a great bunt by Hechavarria, we saw him working with Omar Vizquel on laying down bunts before the game, thats what great leadership does”

      • And Tabby would say, but he needs to work on his bunting,
        ,
        ,
        ,
        …….does Hechavarria

        • It was textbook…maybe hech should give rajai a lesson…I don’t think I’ve ever seen him lay a good one down…

  26. Ha! Washington just scammed Oswalts win! He must be super pissed!

  27. How come our guy cant SEE the damn ball to catch it and their guy makes the catch falling down??

  28. lol, Dempster can’t start because he forgot his passport?

  29. don’t think many managers would do what washington just did.

  30. With Cooper it’s station-to-station baseball.

  31. hell of a play by kinsler.

    nice to see some hits, too bad there isn’t much power in the lineup though

  32. How do you not pitch hit Sierra here? Bases loaded and you let Gose hit against a lefty?

  33. well the only way we get a run is from Gose walking

  34. Guess farell doesnt care about giving the team the best chance to win games anymore. Not pinchhitting sierra for gose with the bases loaded and 2 outs is inexcusable.

  35. I’m starting to like this kid…

  36. dammmmmmmn good AB by gose, but I am not sure how well he will ever hit in the bigs

    • Based on the first 20 games of his MLB career?

      • No, the 501 games of his MiLB career

      • based on minor league numbers and the type of hitter he appears to be. I’m not writing the guy off but who knows if he will ever develop into a high OB% guy.

        • One thing we know about how prospects develop is that while things like walk rates, average, power etc. can and do get better as the player gets experience, one thing that is pretty constant at all levels is K%.

          Gose is around 25% K rates for his entire MiLB career. He’s not going to get that under an acceptable level magically at the MLB number

  37. Surprisingly good battle by gose but predictable result.

  38. Carlos was still lookinh good. Would have been nice to give him a shot at the W.

  39. C’mon Jays, pick up CV, get him the win in the bottom of the inning!

  40. Ok so anyone know, if Loup closes out that 1/2 inning for CV, and the Jays get 2 runs here and shut out the Rangers, does CV get the win or is it Loup’s win?

  41. man Davis has had trouble with the bunts today

  42. Bahahaha…Rajai doesn’t give a fuck about your shitty fake to third move.

  43. damn fans need to make it harder for Beltre to catch that ball

  44. See if Cooper can continue the magic…..that beautiful, balding, chinless magic.

  45. Intentionally walking someone to load the bases for our clean-up hitter suggests that perhaps we have the wrong person batting clean-up. Just sayin’.

  46. Ermahgerd!…..Berses Lerded!

  47. How many opportunities must the Jays fucking squander?

  48. Well I’m all for this game if Gose learns from it. The Texas fielders have had problems with the sun but have handled it.

  49. Dear Escobar

    Please stop dropping your back shoulder all the way to the fucking ground like a retard on every swing.

    Kind regards,

    Every Jays fan

  50. Trying not to get invested in wins/losses for the J-AAA-ys. It’s not really fair to expect much from basically a AAA lineup against 1st place MLB clubs..

    But this game can seriously go fuck itself so far.

  51. Not that it matters to lose Yunel from the game, but for god’s sake, can somebody take MLB umps down a notch or two? It’s not like Yunel was swearing at him or humiliating….he was staring at him across the diamond, and then it became a test of wills, and the ump used his power to throw him out…..nobody is paying to see the goddamn umps. Stop making it about yourselves you retards.

    • Maybe I’m displaying some confirmation bias here… but the Umps appear to be fucking way worse this year than in years past. I guess there really isn’t much data that could be compiled or tracked regarding how bad they have been fucking this shit up.

  52. Zaun had a rant on umps yesterday. He says they re trying to be part of the show whereas the older umps like Tim Tschida just call it fairly.

  53. Yeah, just like the Kemp ejection the other day. Kemp was in the freaking dugout. If somebody is blatantly embarressing the ump then sure, but some of these clowns act like the players parents who demand strict obidience and the utmost respect from them at all times, or they send them to their room.

    MLB needs to crack down, Kemp is among the games superstars. People DO pay to see him. You can’t have some joker making $70,000/year kicking these guys out of the game on a whim. THe umps have what many consider dream jobs, with tons of perks and good pay, and don’t tehmselves possess all that rare of a skillset (most people with proper training could be umps). Taking a bit of abuse is part of the territory, and part of why you’re paid so well for what you do.

    • becoming a big league ump is a long road that deserves some respect in itself, but I agree they shouldn’t get their panties in a knot when a player isn’t giving them total respect.

      • and it is a high pressure job but some umps need thicker skin and not impact the game because of a stupid minor incident.

  54. Wow…who knew when I came to the game today I’d be treated to a bunting drill? Amazing!

    • Was just talking about that.
      I love small ball but Farrell takes it to the extreme.
      Realize these AAA players are having problems but 2 out and bunting for a basehit?

  55. You guys see that Rasmus at bat with 2nd and 3rd and none out..3-0 count? takes one right down broadway then gets jammed on a 3-1 fastball and hits a meak infield pop up?

    that is why Im not sold as this guy as anything more than a bottom of the order hitter. You can’t get beat in there in that situation.

    Rasmus has a tendency to get popped out and then doesn’t even realize he’s been popped up, standing there like an idiot for five seconds before he figures it out.

    • Would you be a real MLB scout for the Cubs by any chance?

    • Terrible at bat.

      Everyone looks like shit sometimes though.

    • Ted Williams gets a hit 1 in 3 times in that situation. This team could use more true supporters more than a new CF. Of course it’s disappointing. Winners do not let the disappointment cause secondary problems.

      • Im not a fan. Im just a scout doing my job. Rasmus has big holes in his swing. And he didnt really need a hit there…just a fly ball to the outfield.

        i understand you are a fan and thus must put your rasmus blinders on, but I dont have such restrictions. If you have him as your two hitter (which he was even before the injuries) then your lineup is not that deep.

      • Anthopoulos should buy Ted Williams cryogenically frozen head and make him the new batting coach, that would be pretty gnarly!

    • He’s probably going to be our CF til Gose learns how to hit.

    • The one right down broadway that he took was probably signalled to take a pitch, which is pretty common on 3-0 counts.

      As for the pop up…what can you say? It’s a pop up. If you’re not sold on a guy because he hit a pop up while trying to hit one to the OF, you’re not going to be sold on many players.

    • IN this particular situation with Rasmus up 3-0 in the count, with runners on 2nd & 3, no outs,
      I thought it was an excellent opportunity to SWING AWAY.

      Taking 3-0 —– WHY? drawing a walk sets up force plays & a potential DP

      Swinging & missing only results in a strikeout; Still a great situation for EE.

      But on the PLus side, a nice juicy 3-0 fastball right down the PIPE. Go for IT Rasmus, SWING AWAY!

      • I meant to say: IN the worst-case scenario: Striking out, where it says Swinging & missing…

        Basically, there is A LOT more to GAIN than lose by Swinging at the 3-0 pipeshot. — This is where Situational Game Play a.k.a. Strategy really comes in to play… Mind matters too, you know.

        • Yeah, I agree, but if the take the pitch call came from the coachj, not much he can do. ANd I would imagine it did come from the coach.

  56. so looks like a cleetus homer is our only chance to continue this game, unless EE gets up to the plate

  57. Once again this is farrell fucking up the entire game. 1st and 3rd nobody out, that’s inexusable to not score.

    mistake 1 First why was rajia running? keeping him at 1st opens up the right side for colby and prevents edwin from getting walked

    mistake 2 considering how poorly colby has been hitting wouldn’t a squeeze bunt have been better and score the run to tie?

    mistake 3 Why are you allowing coop to face a lefty? Farrel doesn’t seem to have any clue of lefty matchups. He has lincoln facing lefties and then lets our lefty hitters face the other teams loogy. This was the perfect time to pinch hit with sierra who’s opsing 1.100 vs lefties but no farrell has to go against the stats.

    3 mistakes in 1 inning. It’s almost as if farrell is playing for the other team.

  58. Im not saying Rasmus sucks or anything, but I dont see how he is put in this “sure thing” category by most fans going forward. He hasn’t proven he is a core piece to me yet.

    • I guess it’s a matter of degrees. No, he may not be a “sure thing” but he’s light years more sure then Gose.

      Gose will never put up the kind of season that Rasmus has already done in 2010.

      • @roba “Gose will never put up the kind of season Rasmus has already done in 2010″

        - that’s probably quite likely, but its silly to be absolute about it. We really have no idea. Sometimes career paths veer into unexpected places.

      • It’s very likely Rasmus never puts in another year like his 2010. His career trajectory is fucking anomalous as fuck. Who has their best year in their first full season?

    • I wouldn`t say sure thing as he has had some struggles, but he`s played great defence and had two really solid months before a bit of a cold streak, coupled with an injury, started hampering him. I`m fairly optimistic about him, but I`d be a lot more comfortable if he put up some decent to strong numbers down the stretch.

    • Rasmus is a sure thing MLB player based on defense and a pretty good bat alone. He doesn’t yet have a great bat though, I think it’s fair to call him a piece of the puzzle but he is not a centre piece

    • I like him a lot, as I said, but he doesn’t have to be a “sure thing” with both Gose & Marisnick pushing him. It’s not all or nothing.

      • Yeah. Plus nobody is really a sure thing. Look at Escobar this year. Or Romero.

        But I feel safe in guessing hell be around a .250ish hitter with 25ish hrs going forward into next year. Maybe not of course, but I don’t see why we should anticipate much less than that.

    • Take away the month of June and he’s had a really bad season. At least June showed the potential is still in there.

  59. God that game sucked.

    Texas basically didn’t threaten all game. Just one bad pitch, really.

    Argh.

    • Unfortunately, threaten is all we did. We double-dared them but didn’t follow through.

    • I am happy with the positive that the team pitched well against a good offense.

      kind of frustrating to watch though

      • @bob – yeah. I mean, I liked what I saw from Villa, Hech, Gose and Jenkins today. And wins really dont matter now.

        But even rationally knowing that it’s damn frustrating watching your team lose one they really had every opportunity to win.

      • “Grin & bear it”
        “Baby steps”
        “It augurs well for the future”

        • Right! That’s the page we’re actually on. Rather than that other imaginary page some folds wish we were on already. To have seen what we have all seen the last 2 games augurs well indeed.

          People sometimes criticize as if AA or even JF have some kind of levers they are pulling incorrectly. The GM can only attempt to create the conditions for success. The manager can try to develop and instill confidence in the players. Even the players have very little of what we would ordinarily call “control” of the situation.

          The real joy of baseball is watching that whole “mess” unfold into recognizable patterns.

          Winning and Money are primitive measures of what is a much more complex. rich experience that offers the opportunity to focus on something other than, and potentially far beyond, the primitive concepts that torment our day to day lives

  60. “Holy piss, it’s a little perfect outside, isn’t it? Which is totally why I’m not going to bother agonizing over a bunch of words that everybody is just going to skim past in order to go piss and moan in the comments about the latest affront to our loyalty that’s coming by way of the Toronto Blue J-AAA-ys” Nice out! Why not just write about soccer and cider….

  61. Well that was inevitable. Win by one run last night, so have to lose the next game by one run.

    • It’d be easier to take if we were still “.500 with upside.”

      • Don’t forget over a 20 year span its a “small sample size”
        I just had to use that term once for kicks because most pin dicks live by it whether it be baseball, sex or pizza.

      • How many games do you think this team would have won in 2012 if it had been, let’s say, a roughly typical season for injuries?

        No way of knowing obviously. But I’d guess … 84?

        • Dead on….if it wasn’t for the new card this convo would have been over long ago

        • a fair guess. maybe if we had better injury luck (when Morrow went down we were fucked, and then Jose was the nail in the coffin), had one more decent starter, and had either a good hitting LF or 1B (with EE being the DH), then we could’ve gotten 88-90 wins and a shot at one of the wildcards.

          but I am sick of the “well if everything goes right we have a chance!” type of seasons, because everything will never go right. we were clearly short what it takes to make a run at the playoffs this year and we will be again next year unless AA gets 2,3,4 additional good players.

  62. Better draft pick – better draft pick!!!

  63. The days of draft picks are over…its about putting the money down

  64. #1 Pitcher just phoned and said fuck off…again….show me some winnage. awwww

  65. It’s gonna be a crap shoot whether we spend $$$$$$$ or not. But I think the ‘we’ll win with our marvellous farm’ schedule has to have been pushed back a little. As much as I like to bitch, they are better than last year–or they would be if they hadn’t gotten clobbered with the injury stick. But they still aren’t projecting to be a continually-successful T-Bay-like team. T-Bay got top drafts at every position and a lot of them panned out. This bunch strike me as more the Baltimore-type lightening in a bottle kind of bunch that might go far if they get very lucky. There are just too many question marks here for long-term success and I don’t think that can be redressed by buying big in the off-season, because a top free agent who has a choice is unlikely to come here unless he is really overpaid, and AA isn’t an overpaying kind of a guy.

    • Hence the other option: Trade.

      • What a good idea! Which of our amazing players are we going to give up to get that piece that puts us over the top? And I just want to point out that the farm hasn’t distinguished itself so far either. It’s early days for the kids so I’m not concerned about it but as it stands I doubt they look like trade bait. Yunel Escobar is apparently on the block. What to you think we are gonna get for him? Or JPA?

        • Good points. The Jays have a hole at 2B for 2013.

          I assume AA will put Hecheverria at 2B.

          LF will be Gose, or Sierra.

          Rajai Davis will be the 4th OF.

          Could AA convince Bautista to move to 1B & make Edwin DH?

          Is Adam Lind a bench bat for 2013 or is he DFA’d?

  66. Carlos, AKA Charlie, has earned a roster spot.

    Now let’s fall back asleep and wait for April.

  67. Baltimore wins another one run game. Would they just fuck off already. That has got to be the flimsiest 65-55 record ever. 23-6 in ONG, 12-2 in extras, -45 in run differential?!

    • But think about next year?

      • When they finish ahead of the Blue Jays again?

        • I do think it would be a nightmare for Rogers if the Jays finished in last place in 2013, with a healthier lineup.

          This year the injury bug gives AA & Rogers breathing room in terms of people analyzing the Jays.

          AA has to make serious steps to rebuild the team in the offseason.

          A number 2 or 3 pitcher who can gives the Jays 200 innings of 3.50 ERA is a minimum.

          They probably need another starter in case Romero doesn’t rebound in 2013

    • Wow. So if Baltimore was about .500 in one run games (15-14), theyd be 58-63. Not really in the race at all.

      Good for them, but I really don’t see them keeping this up long term. Theyre not this good.

      • They’ve kept it up so far. Good for them. I don’t care whether it’s luck. It’s a kind of luck we have never ever had except maybe in 1985. I hope they get to the play-offs and have some success. I’m really happy for their fans.

        • Agreed. It doesn’t matter how you win the games, it’s that you win the games.

          Last year, the Jays had 12 walk off wins , no one complained.

          In 2010, the Jays led the league in HR’s which was great, but they won 85 games.

          Wilner’s new rant is that the Jays led the MLB in runs scored a few weeks ago, yet the Jays were always around 500.

          It would be great for the Jays to play meaningful games in August.

          This year the team stayed in the race till the end of July.

          • @oakville69 … Um, what’s not valid about the fact that the Jays led MLB in runs scored as recently as a couple weeks ago? How is it a ‘bit’?

            When healthy, it’s a strong offense.

    • That’s incredible!. I wonder if that is going to set a 1 season record for 1 run wins.

  68. Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

  69. All I can say is the Headlines from non Rogers Pubs are becoming like this
    “Another strong start for Carlos Villanueva. Another game where the Toronto Blue Jays bats couldn’t deliver him a victory. Villanueva held up his end of the bargain against the high-powered Rangers offence on Saturday, but a two-run homer by Nelson Cruz ended up giving Texas a 2-1 victory over the Blue Jays.

    Guess what happens when there is not a Rogers executive in that room

    Thats what I thought you 9,800 payed customers and welcome to Maple Leafs Nation.

    And also he he he!

  70. 2008 The rays won’t keep this up

    2009 yeah let’s see them do it again

    2010 It was just dumb luck

    2012 I never said that

    2012 June The orioles won’t keep this up

    2012 Aug They won’t do this again next year

    2013 I never said that.

    • In 08 lots of people predicted the Rays would be good. They had a top ranked farm system and loads of young guys right at the cusp.

      Not one person alive predicted the Orioles would be good this year. I personally don’t see a great core of a team there, and their farm is pretty shit despite Bundy and Machado.

      It’s definitely impressive, and I’d take their season right now, bad Pythag or not. But … They’re not the new Rays.

      • Baltimore is the real deal, BOOK IT!!!!!

      • And the Jays system suddenly looks like shit too. Outside of the 3 lottery tickets in A ball and D’arnaud it looks pretty pedestrian.

        Def took a step back this year anyways.

      • Doesn’t Baltimore have a shutdown bullpen?

        Statistically speaking, that helps them win the 1 run games.

        Jays blew several games early in the season with a bad Coco Bullpen.

    • Mike Wilner ??? Is that your new screen name.

      Wilner comes here as he admitted to RADAR last week on his call in show.

  71. Anybody else out there in the Brampton area dealing with this Rogers cable outage? Or is it just my shitty fucking cable?

  72. Is this Hech’s first reps at 2nd with the big club??

  73. Jeff Mathis DH?

    Wouldn’t have predicted that last offseason.

  74. ON THE GROUND.

    • @James

      “@oakville69 … Um, what’s not valid about the fact that the Jays led MLB in runs scored as recently as a couple weeks ago? How is it a ‘bit’?

      When healthy, it’s a strong offense.”

      Yes, the team scored a lot of runs against mediocre /weak pitching , like #4 or #5 starters on other teams, but couldn’t score runs against the Rays, Sabathia etc…

      The standard deviation of runs scored was pretty high. They didn’t score a consistent 5 runs a game.

      • @oakville69

        I’m not trying to be a dick, but … You’re not serious, right?

        Every team scores more against mediocre pitching!! I mean, seriously..

        • That’s like saying ‘the A’s have a great team ERA, but it was better against bad offenses than it was against really good offenses. So I don’t think their pitching is that good.’

        • @James.

          Yes, team generally do score more runs against weak/mediocre pitchers against aces, but the Jays have a higher standard of deviation of runs scored against weaker pitchers than other teams.

          So, the Jays can score 10 runs against a 4th or 5th starter but 1 or 2 runs against the staff ace.

          The Jays are an all or nothing team.

          • Gotta side with oakville here. While more stats are needed to back this up, im very confident in saying the yankees are more adept at beating up good pitching than the jays. Even if its partially because of that joke of a ballpark. Regardless, its all comes down to the jays poor approach at the plate. More patience and more obp type players are needed for more consistent offense. The power is there, but the quality of the AB’s by the jays is not.

          • Do you have any stats showing the Jays have an unusual difference between runs scored against good teams vs bad? Or just your impression? Because I haven’t thought that at all.

  75. Nice throw by Sierra but terrible finish to the play by Gomes.

  76. Maybe Wilner’s the Ginger Campbell/bubble/afdg/grouchy/Gord Ash whackjob.

    • maybe he’s me too

    • Im no whackjob bud, just a voice of reason among all the jays/rogers apologists who frequent this forum.

    • Yes, how dare anyone ask any questions of the mighty Blue Jay organization.

      • Very true. It is remarkable the level of support that Rogers gets from so called baseball experts.

        It would be interesting to see the caual fan suppor level in the offseason.

        The new uniforms seem to be very popular.

        However, if AA doesn’t do much in the offseason, what happens in 2013???

        This year, we could look forward to Gose,Hech,Sierra,Snider, TDA>

        So far, Snider is gone,TDA is hurt & the others have not been overwhelming.

        Gose has speed but can’t hit.

  77. Watching the jays lately must be what it feels like to watch the mariners or padres or some shitty team. Just fucking brutal.

    • Except the Mariners and Padres are actually teams who lack enough MLB talent period to win right now. The Blue Jays have close to enough (and if they were in the NL-West, I’d say it would be plenty), it’s just that 65% of it is on the DL.

      I think they don’t yet have enough talent waiting in the wings at AAA, but that’s a triple-function of
      1) how bare Ricciardi left the cupboard
      2) AA’s plan to re-stock it with higher ceiling but longer-range talent, and
      3) the shitshow that is the team’s relationship with and position in Las Vegas.

      • Agreed jays are better with full rosters but the offenses must be very similiar currently.

      • Im sick of this Jp riccardi left the cubbard bare bull shit. who are the two superstarts on the team the only two?

        -edwin

        jose

        riccardi got them for peanuts and they are the only hope this team has of competing in the next 2-3 years.

        so fuck off with your bullshit

        • Ah, the straw man argument. The last refuge of idiots. The cupboard, as it were, was referring to minor league talent. If you’re too thick-skulled to have grasped that from what I wrote, that is not my problem. Both AA and Ricciardi made some great trades for reclamation project types that panned out, and some that didn’t.

    • yeah, I was wondering what it must be like to be a fan of Houston night after night with the shit they have. Now I know.
      BTW Ben Francisco bats THIRD in theeri fuckin lineup!

  78. Since this hasn’t appeared anywhere else yet:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/08/red-sox-notes-blue-jays-farrell-varitek.html

    We all know Bobby V’s seat is about as hot as it can get. Honestly, if there’s even a shred of a desire for Farrell to go back to Boston — as much as it sucks for the insufferable Massholes to appear to get their way and think they can treat the Jays like a junior farm club for the “real teams” — I say that it’s AA’s duty to do due diligence, here. If there is a way to get a 1-3 starter, hurt Boston in so doing, and give them “what they want,” the Jays should do it. They have Wakamatsu, Lovullo, Butterfield and Rivera, any of whom *could* be good enough for the job, and there’s also Dave Martinez down in Tampa (meaning we could do double-damage to our AL East opponents).

    We know that the stats show that managers don’t impact wins and losses to a great extent, and to whatever extent they do, I am not sure that Farrell is on the plus side.

    I’d rate him about even — sometimes he seems well on the pulse of the team and he does seem to have a loose clubhouse of guys who like each other. On the other hand, he manages like a pitching coach sometimes and can really needlessly burn his bullpen by being too much a slave to the matchup. What that means is that if he is a “replacement level” or marginally better manager, it’s worth trading him for a pitcher that will add more wins to this team (Buchholz was the rumored bargaining chip last offseason). That we subtract those same wins from Boston makes it much sweeter IMO.

    Agree, disagree?

    • Funny thing is Toronto used to be Boston’s farm team… Fuck was it nice when we got Clemens and were on the other side of the spectrum for a bit.

      • I think that the “Rogers is cheap” meme gets a lot of justified derision around here, but at the same time, the Blue Jays were the toast of baseball and a desirable destination when they were finally ponying up the dollars. It’s a shame they got swept away by Ricciardi and promises of a Moneyball plan that just didn’t translate to the AL East. Keeping Delgado on a team with an emerging Halladay and co. could have meant making the playoffs in one of those early-mid 00′s seasons.

        I hope we can see Beeston and Rogers step up this offseason and help AA get the players he is targeting.

        • Agreed 100%

        • You’re assuming that AA isn’t on the same page as Rogers and Beeston when it comes to spending.

          • Well, I can’t speak to whether they have or haven’t been in the past, but it sounds like he has a plan for the winter to acquire pitching, and hopefully they are indeed on the same page.

  79. Well, that escalated quickly.

    Alvarez is such a boring and frustrating pitcher to watch. Normally I get excited when a pitcher goes up 0-2 or 1-2 on a hitter but with Alvarez, you know it doesn’t mean as much. It’ll just lead to a ton of foul balls and eventually a hit.

    • Alvarez is a pitcher that was completely overhyped by the jays player development. I really wanted to trade him before he got up tot he bigs. Even in the minors, he couldnt strike anybody out. His future might be as a reliever if the lack of k’s continue. So what if he throws hard and has sink if he cant strike anybody out? He has no out pitch now and didnt have any when he came up. Having said that, hes young and can improve, but im just disappointed that the jays relied heavily on him when its pretty clear what he is lacking.

      • Do you think a guy like him is better suited to the pen?

        With only two real pitches and his already mid 90′s plus velocity, maybe he gains a couple more mph and find more success?

        I think so

      • Everyone, AA included, knows Alvarez needs to develop his secondary pitches if he’s ever going to miss bats. I hope he gets that opportunity next year. I believe if AA gets his way that’s going to be possible.

        Right now the rotation candidates without Alvarez would be:

        1) Morrow
        2) Romero
        3) Villanueva (I can’t see them not re-signing him)
        4) Laffey
        5) Happ

        Starters on the outside looking in:
        Alvarez (should get seasoning in AAA)
        Drabek (recovering from TJ)
        Hutchison (recovering from TJ)
        Stroman (unlikely fit on MLB roster as a starter, but could get an opportunity in ST)
        McGowan (doubts we’ll ever see him again)
        Jenkins (I like him in his current relief role)
        Litsch (possibly done as well, almost certainly done as a starter)
        McGuire (hard to get a read on his future at this point)
        Brad Lincoln (would certainly create more value from the Snider trade, but I don’t like the idea of the front office operating the on-field club – he has to prove he belongs there, and right now he has proven he can perform better as a reliever)
        Stilson (wild card, would have to just wow them in ST)

        This just seems like a lot of question marks, but on the bright side, if one of the guys on the second list can take it to the next level next spring, they could easily get 1-2 starters by trade or FA and have some excellent depth with Laffey/Villanueva/Happ in the fold as a 4th-6th starter on the roster. I honestly think Villanueva might be better than anyone they could fetch on the market in a #3 role, but I hope they’ll try to improve the club there nonetheless, especially given Ricky’s troubles.

    • Yeah that really got out of hand. I think someone got stabbed with a trident.

      • the dude was playing dealing with the death of a family member, and the d did not cut him some slack either.

  80. Lincoln’s pretty awesome. I can see why so many teams wanted to steal him from Pittsburgh. Can’t believe all it cost us was Travis Snider. What an amazing “power arm out of the bullpen”. Awesome.

    • 11 innings as a Jay and we’re already being sarcastic about Lincoln. Get off the bandwagon if it bothers you so much.

      • 11 innings ? how bout 6 years of him sucking since he was drafted? lets see..that 6 years of him sucking vs 1/2 of a season of him being good? what has the higher likelihood of being his true talent level.

        • Yeah, he was really terrible in relief in Pittsburgh this season.

          • Yup. His 9.4 K/9, 2 BB/9, 0.7 fWAR, 1.60 ERA and 2.90 FIP in his career as a reliever is brutal (45 innings – about a reliever’s full season SS).

            The Black Knight always triumphs!

          • I actually take that back. That’s just this season as a reliever

            His career as a reliever: 9.57 K/9, 2.22 BB/9, 2.56 ERA, 3.05 FIP in 53 IP. Still very good.

          • can you idiots read? i said VS 1/2 season of being good.

            learn to read before you attempt to criticize the great JP

          • hence my ENTIRE point about juxtaposing his career vs his transient good run this year. you want to use small samples to over rule the evidence we have in a much larger sample?

            fine, ill play your game.

            how’s he been in relief since he came here? he’s sucked balls. perhaps he was just riding a hot hand this year in the pen? or are we to just dismiss his scukitude up to this year?

        • Is the sucking also not what travis snider did??

          • Snider has hit at a well above average clip everywhere he has been in the minors vs lincoln who has sucked even in the minors.

            snider, as bad a rap as he got in the bigs has a MLB CAREER ops of 740…that is not great but certainly not bad for a 24 year old.

          • @JP

            You’re comparing two positions. Is it any wonder you got fired.

  81. It’s just a flesh wound!

  82. @James.

    I took a quick look at the season’s game logs.

    The Jays average 4.65 runs scored per game.

    The Jays have scored 3 or less 53 times & 7 or more 27 times.

    By comparison, the yankees have scored 5.4 runs per games.

    The Yankees have 3 or less runs 38 times & 7 or more 26 times.

    Relatively speaking, the Yankees have a more consistent offence.

    Looking at box scores , there are very few times the Jays scored more than 7 runs against top starters.

    The offence was stronger earlier in the season before the injuries to the hitters took place.

    • Is their consistent offense derived from having a much better team OBP?

      • the jays obp being as low as it is tells you that they have been very lucky in scoring the amount of runs they actually did score.

        any advanced stats guru will tell you the thing that matters most is getting on base…and its not really close.

        • How do advanced stats explain the O’s?

          Just sayin…

        • JP: Yeah I figured as much, I just didn’t bother to look and see how big the gap was.

          If the Jays can get their team OBP up another 10%, and improve the rotation (considerably), they’ll be fine in 2013.

          Stond: Everyone knows the Orioles are playing far above their heads. Their W-L record in 1-run games is what’s keeping them afloat. We’ll just have to see how far up their ass this horseshoe is for the rest of the season.

      • Jays are 2nd in the AL in HR’s, 6th in Runs scored, 8th in BB

        11th in OBP.

        Yankees OBP is 336. Jays 311.

        The lack of OBP was a big problem during Cito’s 2009& 2010.

        I thought it would get betterwith Farrell who came from Boston, but it hasn’t happened yet.

  83. Fact of the matter is….if JP made a trade like AA did in Snider for fucking Lincoln, he would have been roasted at the stake immediately.

    snider is younger, has a better track record in the minors, and has the ceiling of an above average everday major league outfielder.

    lincoln is older, has a poor minor league track record, required a move to the pen to salavage some value..and therefore has the CEILING of a late inning reliever.

    so ask yourself this..for a team that lacks a legit everyday lf, (in fact a position they’ve struggled to fill for YEARS) what is more valuable? a reliever (no matter how good in fact) or a LF who can hit for power and play above average defense who is only 24 ?

    this trade was one of those few trades you can look at and say its an immediate loss.

    we will rue the day that trade happened for the next ten years.

    • Without question it was a desperation move and it shows. AA is not a Ninja he is more along the lines of an Elf. A good Elf but an Elf none the less.

      • AA is behaving like the the late Chris Farley Beverly Hills Ninja with his trade for Travis Snider.

        Will AA even try to resign Lyon?

        It is ludicrous to expect 60 innings of Lincoln s a reliever to help the team more than 150 games of Travis Snider in LF.

        Watching Gose & Sierra in the OF isn’t as impresive as what Travis does.

    • Smart people have observed that Travis doesn’t look like the same bat that he was when he started. Smart people also believe he could flourish with the right amount of support, which he never received in Toronto. I didn’t like the trade, but I understand it. We’ll see if the jays indeed regret it in the future.

    • no , we son’t.
      Snider is at best a platoon outfielder who” ll hit .250 with 14-17 HR per year. Basicaly, just OK- we need better thaan that

    • Very good analysis. The Snider -Lincoln trade was bad for the Jays.

      Jays have no depth at LF unless they want to use Gose or Sierra there.

      Jays could use plenty of failed starters like Cecil in the bullpen.

      AA must have been fed up with Snider getting hurt & not hitting LHP.

  84. It’s a little early to tell if the trade will go down as a huge blunder, but if Travis ends up being a steady .850 OPS guy over the next eight years then we blew the trade.

    AA gambled on Lincoln being more than a flash in the pan. I would rather take my chances with Snider and pickup a free agent reliever in the off season.

    If the trade was for a decent starter (perhaps costing Snider+) I would’ve been all over it. That is the Jays biggest need. But relievers come and go and are rarely worth a potential everyday LF with above average offense.

    • and remember how excited everyone was with the Rasmus trade? Snider was once even more highly touted, and there is a chance Snider could even end up being the better hitter in the long run.

      unless Snider crashes and burns and is unable to ever put together a consistent major league season, we have lost this trade. I don’t like the odds of this one working out for the Jays.

      • Snider is a Matt Stairs minus the power

      • SNIDER’S WORK ETHIC & CHARACTER are outstanding.

        This guy will be a solid MLB player.

        I am very upset that Travis was traded because AA always goes after these type of players on other teams but he kicked tRAVIS TO THE CURB FOR A MIDDLE RELIEVER.

        Can’t wait for a Travis Snder homecoming to Toronto when he hits a HR off Brad Lincoln.

    • Very tre. It does not make sense to trade an everyday LF for a reliever who gives 60 innings of relief per year.

  85. re: Farrell to Boston

    What, for Farrell, is the real appeal of that job? Serious question. Other than Gonzalez and Pedroia, who do the RedSux have under long term control that is better than a top 10 at their position?? Plus a lot of that is aging (Ortiz? Crawford will be close to 32 before he is contributing again after his TJ surgery.

    And, the RedSux supposed money advantage is no better than the Dodgers, Cubs, Rangers, Angels and perhaps even the Nationals and Phillies. – and there is a reputation that it kind of sucks to play in Boston, as Papi and Valentine have muttered recently. Ellsbury, a Boras guy, is a good bet to leave. Does Will Middlebrooks scare you? They don’t have a real SS threat, other than prospects Marrero, or Bogaerts. They don’t have any C ranked near d’Arnaud. And, pitching? Beckett probably wants out. Lester and Buchholz could bounce back, but . . .. maybe not. Is Lackey going to be an answer??

    What gems are in their farm system? Nothing special really.

    AA said when he hired Farrell he hoped he never had to do another search – I am guessing, given that the Jays are supposed paying coaches more than any team but the Yankees, that they are willing to fork out bucks to retain Farrell, who I think becomes a FA lure perhaps if he plants a flag here and by his actions states which situation looks more attractive.

    But, of course, this is all just speculation and wishful thinking.

    • Farrell doesn’t seem to be a master strategist and many question his lineup and pitching changes decisions somewhat regularly.
      His biggest value is probably being a respected figure that can keep guys in line. I think the asking price is a capable starter and if we get that I wouldn’t miss Farrell. Otherwise Boston can fuck off.

      simple as that, and if Boston is that desperate to hire a manager (and unable to find anyone else) they are a rather pathetic organization.

      • Agreed. Farrell looked furious at today’s press conference after the game.

        I wonder if he has told AA that he wants help in the offseason from free agent or trades otherwise he won’t sign an extension.

        I like Farrell but his bullpen management confuses me.

    • Good points.

      I think AA would be willing to pay a premium to keep Farrell.

      It would be a big setback for Rogers if Farrell decided to go to Boston.

      There are lower expectations in Toronto & Rogers media won’t allow serious criticism of Farrell’s game management

    • I could see Farrell restoring order to the clubhouse. No more chicken wings & beer.

      Red Sox fans may give him a pass for a few years as they rebuild but they can do it quickly with extra $$$ from ownership.

      Farrell won’t throw players under the bus like Bobby V who bashed Youklis.

      • If work ethic and character were all it took to win baseball games, Roy Halladay would have single-handedly willed the Jays to a title in the past decade.

        You haven’t been in the clubhouse with Travis, and neither have I. He seems by all rights to be a good guy, and I wish him well, but we don’t know specifically how he took to coaching and they had to wonder if he was ever going to stop striking out. Right now it’s tough to see his upside being greater than Russell Branyan, which isn’t god-awful, but not what we were promised. I hope we’ll see better out of him in Pittsburgh.

      • Comment landed in the wrong place, but I need to ask if this is a joke. Farrell oversaw these guys for the years prior to last. He probably bought the Sox staff KFC for all we know.

        Farrell may restore order to the clubhouse, but if the best thing he does as manager is to be a good den mother, the Jays should clean up in a deal that involves a pitcher.

  86. sorry to be clear, I meant “other than Pedey and AGonz, who is a Top 10 at their position”?

    • Ortiz and Ellsbury — who may not be on Boston or playing well in 2,3,4 years, but they are still valuable pieces as of today. Saltalamacchia is a good catcher, perhaps better than JPA, and might be top 10 at that position.

      So they have potentially 5/9 that are top 10 at their postions not including Crawford if he ever rebounds. Not terrible but not stand out in the AL east, especially considering that many of these players have likely played their best baseball already.

      Their pitching is a bit of a mess though. Lots of talent but who knows what you will get out of Bard, Lester, Lackey, Bucholz, in the next few years.

      If Boston is able to spend some dough and get a few good players they could still finish ahead of the Jays next year. They aren’t the beast that they used to be but it is not certain that they will just start fading away.

      • Very good points .

        The difference between Boston & Toronto is that Boston is wiling to spend money to fix the holes they have.

        It’s unclear that Rogers is willing to spend to fix the holes we have.

        Rogers has invested $$$ in a media savvy GM & Manager who is willing to spin whatever is necessary.

        Ridiculous comments like Dyson has the best stuff in the organization.

        Edwin playing 3B at the last minute last spring so that Rivera could play LF

        AA could barely keep a straight face when he said Edwin lost weight so he can play 3B.

        Edwin was a fiasco at 3B

      • you are joking about Salty being a Top 10 catcher right? He is tied with JPA at 14th in wOBA but he is considered a truly shitty defensive catcher (ranked 83rd currently, JPA is 27th and Mathis is 11th)

        and in wOBA Napoli, Santana, Avila and Wieters are not that much ahead of JPA, who was starting to heat up before his injury

        • re: top 10 catchers, how about this-

          Molina, Ruiz, Posey, Mig. Montero, Wieters, McCann, Ellis, Hannigan, Avila, and JPA

        • didn’t know Salty was that far behind JPA defensively (to whatever degree rankings and stats can give a complete picture). JP has picked up his defensive game this year though, I remember last year he was often seen as a liability on defense.

          also re: rankings, JP was ranked 114th in 2011 (albeit Salty is just infront of him at 112th) so who knows how a guy can jump that high from age 25-26.

          so I retract the statement, he is only close to being top 10 offensively, but that obviously isn’t the main thing a team wants in a catcher.

  87. baseball is funny – before the trade deadline, in early July I mused about the Jays getting Jeremy Guthrie – partly because of the injuries, and he is a guy who has liked TO when he comes thru town (biking around when he does). Here is another Colorado escapee doing alright – he is working on 23 innings with no ERs and his fourth straight good start.

  88. Word is Buffalo is dumping the Mets and the Jays will have their AAA team there next year.

  89. thames and snider 5 hits

    jays 2 hits

    • We should see if the trades included a no-givebacks clause and, if not, fly them back to Toronto and play them both in Left Field at the same time. I bet they’ll get lots of hits.

  90. thames + snider platoon is probably a better LF than we will get next year

  91. For those who keep saying baltimore is lucky in 1 run games, here’s their record in 2 run games.

    jays 8-8

    bal 19-12

    So I don’t think they can be lucky in both?

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