It’s a shame about Ray

Ahh, the Rays.

They’re… here. Playing baseball. Tonight. Against the Jays.

Yeah, I don’t know.


Brendan Kennedy of the Toronto Star tweets that Travis d’Arnaud has not been added to the Jays’ Arizona Fall League roster, because the club isn’t sure if he’s yet ready to catch. He may still be added later on, though.

By way of a Mike Wilner tweet, John Farrell says that, had Jose Bautista been shut down following his original injury, the club probably wouldn’t have realized the need for surgery until spring. Real fucking comforting, that.

Cathal Kelly of the Toronto Star writes about the changing nature of fandom, and wonders if the tribalism and anger that’s stoked by the internet may be connected with the killing of Brian Ludwig outside a Calgary bar this week, following an argument about the Jays’ pitching staff.

Dirk Hayhurst reflects on his first foray into broadcasting, which will conclude September 6th, when Sportsnet’s noon show switches back to dull-headed hockey babble.

At Getting Blanked, Eno Sarris takes us through the just-released fielding dependent pitching stats that have just been rolled out at FanGraphs, where he’s also a contributor.

Bluebird Banter asks their readers just what the hell the Jays should do at second base, and with Kelly Johnson.

Lastly, for your between-inning viewing pleasure, here’s today’s edition of Getting Blanked…

TV: Sportsnet

And now the lineups, by way of the live box score at And for those of you who’ll be out and about, be sure to follow all the action on your phone or tablet with Score Mobile

Toronto Blue Jays

R. Davis LF
C. Rasmus CF
E. Encarnacion 1B
A. Lind DH
Y. Escobar SS
K. Johnson 2B
M. Sierra RF
J. Mathis C
A. Hechavarria 3B

C. Villanueva RHP

Tampa Bay Rays

D. Jennings LF
B. Upton CF
B. Zobrist SS
E. Longoria 3B
M. Joyce DH
J. Keppinger 2B
L. Scott 1B
J. Lobaton C
S. Fuld RF

M. Moore LHP


Image via John Dibiase.

Comments (158)

  1. I read that Cathal Kelly piece, pure speculative shit – he invents a dialogue based on the one quote from the newspaper article where the police office said that it was about Jays pitching. I am not saying it isn’t worth writing about, but how about collecting some actual facts before going off with one’s own biases and inventions. It may have started about pitching but then it could have just devolved based on the two personalities involved – “hey fuck your mother, what, yeah you heard me, you’re fucking ugly shitbag, etc, etc” Baseball may have only been tangentially involved. It could just as easily started with “You eat peanuts, how about you lick these nuts”. Spontaneous combustion sure, but when you gasoline vapor meets a tap shoe spark – now I understand. Wrong place, wrong time could just as easily be the entire story.

  2. The first comment I have is about Kelly Johnson. First, with the waiver wire expiring tomorrow I am really surprised they didn’t dump hom on whoever they can as he is of no use to us being gone at the eoy anyway.
    Second, there is no way we sign a guy to play average defense for 6m and to hit .224 and to strike out about 200 times a year. We got snookered on that AZ deal and it is time for alex to cut bait and move on.
    Either look to Hecahvarria who if he hits .220+ would be better than kelly due to the D and a bit of speed or look to a trade perhaps for a Kipnis of Cleveland or Beckham of Chisox or that little fucker in Houston, Altuve

    • Snookered? You realize they weren’t picking up Hill’s option anyway, yes?

      • True, but didn’t Arizona decline Hill’s options & give him a lower offer for 2012.

        Hill is playing much better in Arizona than Kelly Johnson is here. It could be the result of the sore hamstring & no time off with the rest of the team hurt.

        It would be nice to see one of Stoeten or Parkes or Drew analyze the reason for Hill’s success in Arizona.

        Is it a new hitting coach? Lower quality pitching in the NL?

        • Aaron Hill home OPS/WRC+ .930/146
          Aaron Hill away OPS/WRC+ .767/99
          Probably way too simple an explanation but it’s worth noting

  3. It’s really annoying that they started Baseball Central 3 months into the season and are then ending it a month early, only to start up that puerile drivel that is Hockey Central a month BEFORE the season that will probably not start on time is supposed to begin. Garbage.

    • Well I have noticed this market is dangerously underserved when it comes to hockey.

    • I had to unfollow Hayhurst some time ago on twitter but I’ve really enjoyed what he’s brought with Baseball Central. His insights play well there good t & I liked him the two days or whatever that he was on TV.

      But how Sam Cosentino gets paid to talk baseball is completley fucking mind blowing. “I WAS A BAT BOY A BUNCH OF YEARS AGO…LISTEN TO MY HORSESHIT!”. He’s beyond awful & makes me want to throw my radio.

      Dump Cosentino & Dump Zaun plz & thx.

      • Fuck, I am not sold on Hayhurst either yet to be honest. He says some Zaunesque things.

        Ex-players can contribute in some way, but please dont talk about what the management should or shouldnt do. Meatheads.

      • Cosentino is a serious no-talent…..he brings nothing to the table & is not even entertaining accidently.

      • Yeah I didnt mind Cosentino before I saw him last week get bent completely out of shape because Laffey refused to talk to reporters before a game. I mean dude, you’re a walking , breathing example of the reason why he wants to gather his thoughts and concentrate on his game.

      • I unfollowed him too.

      • Cosntino got better as the show progressed but I get annoyed with how he pronounces the word “Offense” It’s offense no OOHfense

    • Yeah. But, it’s still a major improvement over when they used to air Hockey Central ALL SUMMER.

      I liked the show. I hope they bring it back.

  4. A little, not so controversial theory on difference between jays and rays: team defence. for example, compare tonight’s starting outfields. Tampa puts out three center field types. it would be nice if someone could properly calculate the effect of their fielding on their pitching stats.

    • Except that its been widely reported n that this has been an off year for the Rays defensively. But I forgot you only use your eyes…and probably fielding percentage.

  5. Where hell’s Dillon?

  6. One of the most important things Alex did this year was keep promoting from within the minor league ranks.

    All of those guys in the minors are probably busting their butts because they know that there are opportunities in this organization to move up and get a shot. It’s a powerful motivator to do this. Almost everybody in triple-A had a chance to be with the big club this year alone.

    • Good point. Hopefully the kids will improve next year with some MLB playing time.

      However, having half the lineup be AAA won’t be a regular occurrence next year.

      I hope AA upgrades the bench next year & they go back to a 7 man bullpen

  7. Sign that dude!

  8. Johnson shows his moxie with that hit.

  9. extend kj!

  10. “the most pop eatingist team” -Pat Tabler

  11. Sort of mixed emotions on this Carlos start. Want the team to do well, and want him to do well, but know that with each good start, his price tag goes up

    • I’ve got no prob with that. If the Jays, bereft of good rotation pitching, can afford the fan backlash if they dont sign him, not to mention the potential shittiness of whoever replaces him and the loss to free agency with NO return, then they will be showing that they really arent serious. They had the $$ for Romero, JB and EE and Escobar, I think they’ll do it.

      • Agreed. The Jays need pitching so a Carlos V signing looks like a good idea.

        It’s cheaper than paying free agents who don’t want to come to Toronto.

  12. Buck Martinez just randomly declared Matt Moore has the 4th best fastball in baseball. I think maybe he visited Fangraphs today.

  13. Fuck me. Charlie V dealing like a boss.

  14. My price tag is going up up up up

  15. Can we get an extension for Carlos yet???? I mean come on, I know Happ has had a couple of good starts lately but Carlos is still better. I get scared the longer the season goes on that we’ll get stuck with Happ for all of next year.

    • But who would offer more value for the money? If Villenueva demands a higher price and Happ is only paid peanuts, Happ would certainly provide a better value for the price, and that’s far more important than winning baseball games. At the end of the year when the most value per total salary trophy is given out at the intelligent fiscal management world series, the Jays have a great shot at winning it!

      • Have had enough of the penny pinching. There was a time for it i think it has passed now. I think Carlos would provide better results and not be that much more expensive. You are talking a couple of million more at the most per year.

        • Totally agree! It’s unfortunate but I have to agree with your earlier sentiment, as time progresses it’s becoming more and more unlikely Carlos will be back. Shi Davidi said today he didn’t think he would be back either because “he’ll price himself out of what the Jays are willing to pay him.” To me that’s absolutely fucking inexusable. Anyone with 2 working eyes can see Villenueva is better than Happ, and if that’s the route the Jays go in the offseason, I think there will be no more question about where their priorities really are and it’s not winning.

          • I couldn’t disagree more!

          • It’s not a good sign if Shi Davidi says Carlos V won’t be back. He usually gets the Rogers inside scoops.

            I thought AA’s strategy was to take care of home grown/internal options first since they have to overpay free agents to come to Toronto.

      • LOL!. That comment may get you a shouout on the next podcast.

        I don’t think the Jays can play the penny pinching game with starting pitching for 2013.

        The Jays have a few extra questions with starting pitching for 2013.

        Will Romero recover? Can Morrow stay healthy? Happ is probably the 4th starter.

        The Jays can’t tell fans that Cecil or McGowan will be part of the starting rotation.

        Will ALvarez be able to stay in the rotation.

        AA went on record saying he wanted to upgrade starting pitching, so will Rogers let him pay for a free agent or will they force AA to trade his prospects.

        If Snider gets you middle reliever, will he have to trade one or 2 of the lansing trio for a MLB starter??

    • I think I’d be good with Happ as the #5 guy, and Carlos as the #6 option. I’m sure he’d make plenty of starts as the first backup out of the pen, and it would keep his innings down.

      Easier said than done, but if the Jays could acquire a #2/3 guy and a #4 guy, then the rotation could be Morrow, Guy, Romero, Guy, Happ. With Carlos V and Alvarez as the first two back up options.

      • Carlos was pretty clear that he was looking for a starting job next year.

        • No.

          He said he doesn’t mind going to the pen and doesn’t need any promises, but he wants starter money.

          Pay him like a starter, have him out of the pen as a long-man and 6th starter.

          • Right you are! My memory isn’t what it used to be. That said, pay him as a starter and use him as a starter.

  16. What’s an Eephus?

  17. I wish mrs. tabler was dissemenated, in whole or in part by major league baseball.

  18. If we are unable to trade for an ace or a number 2 and/or unable to sign Edwin Jackson as FA innings eater, I’d be okay to come into 2013 with current rotation as long as we place a premium on defence next year.

    • No Alvarez please unless he miraculously doubles his pitch repertoire over the winter

    • No way.

      I don’t think we need 3 pitchers like some are saying, but we need someone. If we re-sign Carlos V I’d be happy with only one addition.

      1 Morrow
      2 Romero
      3 New Guy
      4 Carlos V
      5. Happ/Drabek/Laffey/Alvarez/Random Fodder

      I might take that over what the Red Sox and Stankees rolled out there this year.

      Not the best case scenario by any means, but certainly not terrible.

      • I’m down with that. One good no.2 or 3 and your no. 5 guy is one of those 4. Btw Drabek may or may not be back next Aug so Happ/Alvarez/ and Laffey can fight it out. Hutch wont be back til 2014. I’m thinking one of those 4 could possibly be a part of a trade package too. After that they’ll need a LF and see what develops.

  19. Seriously not sure why Jays wouldn’t be happy with Carlos V as a #4 next year. Pay the man.

    Unless Romero’s moving into that spot in the rotation.

    • with the new economics of MLB (dodgers sale, ESPN rights purchase), i wouldn’t be surprised if someone offered villaneuva 2 years for 16 million. aa may have to sign him for 3 yrs for 20 million before end of this season

      • Very true. The big news in the USA is that ESPN is doubling payments to MLB for tv rights for the next 7 years. 700 million per year.. I am not sure if this money is split equally with all 30 teams, because some team like the yankees & red sox are shown more often.

        Other teams like the dodgers,rangers , padres , reds are getting more tv money so those teams can spend more on payroll.

        Rogers is lucky that they own the Jays , because the Jays can’t demand more money from rogers.

        However, if Rogers doesn’t allocate the FMV of broadcast rights to the Jays,the Jays won’t be able to compete with the rest of the MLB.

        Having a higher ranked farm system helps, but it won’t be able to help the team as quickly as it needs.

        • The national TV money is split evenly. It doesn’t matter who appears on national TV more often, equal pieces of the pie.

          The Dodgers, Rangers, Reds, and Padres are able to spend their TV money more directly onto payroll because they’re owned by individual owners or private ownership groups that own the team primarily for the sake of owning the team. They can spend haphazardly because the ultimate controlling owner or ownership group is more or less doing this for shits and giggles as compared to a publicly-owned corporate ownership group.

          The Blue Jays are owned by a publicly-owned corporate conglomerate that primarily derives value from its ownership of the team from the TV that the team creates.162 different 3-hour blocks of television with 2 minutes of advertising every 10 minutes that is almost always viewed live by viewers is invaluable in the modern world. They can still increase the TV value by increasing payroll, but spending is far less capricious and there are many more stakeholders involved that make massive payroll spending a complicated process. Allocating FMV of the broadcast rights has nothing to do with it. Turning any money in into money out is much more complicated for the Jays than most (if not every) other team in MLB because it’s a publicly-owned company that’s ultimately paying the bills.

          • So you are saying that Rogers can’t ascribe a value to the Blue Jays? It’s just too complicated a task for them?
            And you are saying that as a publicly traded company they have a duty to their shareholders to short change one of their subsidiaries?
            Well then , I guess you are saying that all Blue Jays fans have the duty to fight against Rogers and force them to not cheat… what do you recommend: class action lawsuits by defrauded season ticket subscribers? should these lawsuits name both Rogers and MLB as defendants?

  20. not sure why farrell doesn’t simply let villaneuva trot out for the 7th and let him pitch till a man gets on base before pulling him.

    • Oliver is God. You can’t second-guess that.

      • Yeah, I remember some giggling around here, by certain people, when he was signed but he’s been great. and thats an understatement.

      • not second guessing ever putting in oliver (till he’s 90 and/or till his left hand falls off)…it’s just that there’s no need to get into the bullpen this early…unless you are trying to justify having an 8 man pen or however many they have these days

    • He had a fever all day, that’s why farrell took him out.

  21. The fill in starters have done a pretty good job overall…Happ, Laffey, and Carlos. It’s certainly not their fault the Jays have tanked as badly as they have since the all star break. I hope they re-sign Carlos; although there is better on the FA market, he has done a good job and wants to come back, so “let’s get er done”

  22. Why can’t we take properly?!?!

  23. Guys, I think the Republican party in the States is completely broken.

    • Na, just seriously bent.

    • ..well if Oh-Bow-Mau gets in for another term, god help everyone….left wing nut job lunatic….uh-buh-buh…’Yes we can!’….more like ‘No we can’t'…wtf is it now? 16-24trillion debt & even if they were to shut down the entire gov, including the military, still be in defeciit spending…..

      • Time to bite your cyanide pill Bubb. You know you want to.

        • …no f*ck the cyanide…im holding out for an asteroid…not big enough to kill everybody…but big enough to ‘hit the reset button’ & shut the f*cken lunatic left wing douche baggery nut job wankers the hell up!….yeah, that’s the ticket…but obviously i don’t want to interupt mlb season or anything like that….i mean who the hell do you think i am, im not a nutbar…

          • You’ll most likely have to settle for hemorrhoids, and they’re unlikely to improve your outlook. Good luck!

    • Clint Eastwood just gave a very funny speech making fun of Obama. He was pretending that Obama was a chair. Must see TV.

    • Totally agree.

      Except for the part where half of all Americans love them.

      America is broken too.

  24. Carlos V said he wanted to be paid like a starter, he said he doesn’t need any guarantees and doesn’t mind going to the pen, as long as he is being paid like a starter.

    Pay him like a starter, say 2-years $12 million at tops, then have him as the long-man and 6th starter for when someone goes down to injury.

    • Great idea…..

      Except we don’t have a 3, 4 or 5 starter to injure.

      I’m certainly not letting Carlos V rot in the bullpen as a backup in case Cecil or Laffey get injured.

  25. Maddon is a dick in the mouth.

    • IF he was available, I’d have him be the Jays manager in a heartbeat.

      • yup

      • He’s very popular here in Tampa . He was giving advice to the GOP delegates where to get the best dinners & wine. They had a big party for the GOP at Tropicana field on Sunday & he was worried they would break into his office.

        • Maddon is a Republican? I may have to stop hating the Rays.

          • He didn’t say whether or not he was a Republican , but he likes to give restaurant reviews & wine drinking tips.

            We were eating at a sports bar tonight & found it odd that we had to ask the waitress to put on the Rays game because all the tv’s were showing college football.

            It seems that people don’t care about the Rays here even though they are in another playoff race

          • I may have to start

          • You’re in football country once Sep rolls around…. Fla, TX , Ga..etc

  26. Oh good two more runners to strand.

  27. So that’s like, what, eighteen runners stranded? Twenty? Feels like it.

  28. Farrell: Jeff, take a pitch right over the plate with 2 strikes please.

    Mathis: I can do that Skip!

    • They might call it ‘taking a pitch looking,’ but you have to figure his eyes were screwed shut.

  29. Ja, so i got a good feeling about the 9th here…..hopefully Yansen can fix it up soon, i gotta get to the chopper in a minute…..

  30. Sweet

  31. Yay!

  32. Get to the chopper!!!!!

  33. classic old school win. bravo

  34. If you could have BJ for the cash figures they’ve been talking about for his free agency or Justin for 3/4 of our top prospects which Upton would you guys go after.

    A) BJ – It’s Cash – who gives a fuck
    B) Justin, he could be an MVP !
    C) Sierra, costs us nothing and he has some upside.

    • All I can say is that I’m glad I’m not the guy to decide which of the Lansing Three is expendable, if it comes to that. There seems to be absolutely no consensus on their relative worth. One could argue this should work in our favour, given we should know the most about their merits, and therefore are in a position to spin off the chaff from the wheat, but when I hear comparisons to Glavine, Smoltz and Maddox I just start to drool. Prospect Porn, a painful process.

  35. Give me Justin, our prospects aren’t panning out anyway.

  36. clint eastwood

  37. Hey 2 in a row! And I have no frickin’ idea why they haven’t done a deal with CV yet. He was excellent. He’s done everything they wanted him to do. They know him. I doubt he’ll cost a fortune. What else does he have to do to convince the front office? It’s not like there are loads of excellent free agent pitchers coming up this year.

    • lovely isabella, it’s probably because cv wants to be paid like a starter 5-7 mil and alex wants to pay him like a reliever 3-4 mil

      • I don’t see why Rogers would complain about paying CV 5-7 mllion per year when they give 4 million to dustin Mcgowan who may not even pitch an inning over 3 years or 1.5 million per year for a back up catcher.

        Drabek & Hutch probably won’t pitch in 2013, so you needa guy like CV

        • Tamps -

          They didn’t gve McGowan 4M. They gave him 1.5 M per year. CV is likely looking for 5-7M/year.

          I’d do it, but I’m just clarifying.

        • That’s a good point. I can hear every agent calling AA with “So you paid McGowan 4 mil over 3 years for likely nothing, what’s my guy gonna get for giving you something?”

  38. I can’t believe AA hasn’t started a discussion. Maybe his agent is waiting for his value to go up? Like it has?

    • This stuff tends to come out of the blue.
      Remember the Mathis signing?Or EE?or Mcgowan?

    • As if ‘Randy’ ( I take it he doesn’t get any ) has the slightest clue what discussions have or havent taken place.

  39. Funny listening to jaystalk when wilner says he’s here for the truth but whenever somebody calls and points out he’s wrong he hangs up on them. Caller pointed out how he said baltimore would collapse and wilner threw a hissy fit and hung up on him. Big man of you wilner.

    • There are serious holes in most of Wilners arguments, if you can call them that….he will reinvent the validity of any stat or counterpoint to support his agenda…he chronically contradicts himself. Someone should pull him aside and tell him to listen to some of his Jaytalk diatribes.

      Classic example was his recent refusal to even acknowledge the sentiment that making your way through an extended homerun derby to the final rounds may put added stress on joints/ligaments/muscles and may catalyze an injury. And, particularly in Bautista’s case, where every swing is a maximum effort, violent exercise
      in generating mach number bat velocity, it seems logocal that it may have pushed him over the brink to wrist failure. It’s pure logic to assume this is possible, yet Wilner just steam rolls over anyone who calls in and makes the suggestion. I think his value is limited and he should be skidded…not much of a broadcaster frankly and pretty much useless as far as effective baseball analysis.

      • Agreed. He goes nuts when people call him a shill for the Jays. I don’t think the HR Derby helps a player like Jose.

        • indeed, i think certain players, who consistently peg their swingometer, should be giving the derby a pass.

      • So what happens next year when jose want to enter the home run derby again? Does everyone just pretend like he isn’t going to get injured again?

        • …i think the voices that say ‘jose, maybe you should reconsider the risks’…need to be a bit louder.

        • The hope is that Joey Bats hasn’t stopped learning just yet. Next year it’ll be EE’s turn to flirt with catastrophe.

      • Remember in 2010 when he kept laughing at callers that said Jose had changed his swing dynamics? He kept telling them it was bullshit and that there was no evidence for this. Then Jose basically comes out and says he indeed did not just tweat, but reinvent his swing mechanics….and then wilner claimed that, even after this, that jose did not say what he just said.

        admit you were wrong dude and move on.

        • Wilner is Mr Thin Skin. He will never admit that he’s wrong because he can never be wrong. That whole first break-out season for the Rays he was insisting they wouldn’t go the distance, just like now with Balto. When they did he just basically deflected any and all questions about it.

          His sensitivity got him into trouble a couple of seasons back when he got into it with Cito Gaston. Sooner or later it’ll happen again.

      • They take BP every day…

  40. It’s just a JUMP to the left…..

    and then a step to the riiiiiiii-iiiiighhh-tttttt

  41. We better sign CV for next year, I see absolutely no reason not too Consider our SP has been awful for a couple years now, with a severe lack of death. Quite frankly he is one of our better options.

    • You are of course right. Way too many injuries, and most of the others have shit the bed, but there has been a severe lack of death. As good a reason as any to sign ‘Los Del V.’ Make it so, #2.

  42. No more lamenting for Drabek-CV replaced him and he is doing WAY bettre. 3.10 ERA vs DRabek 5.0 and he wals about 3 per 9 innings vs Drabek7.1. Christ tell drabek to go be a FA-who cares

  43. Dance with me, Isabella.

  44. The only thing that could have made Clint Eastwood’s speech better is if Colby braided Clint’s hair in cornrows (messy head)

    Eastwood/Rasmus 2016

    • I’d like to know what the bet was about that Colby lost when he did the cornrows.

      • I bet you’re right on that, RADAR.

        • Had to be karen, he only had it for one day. Can’t think that after he had it done he said to himself,
          ” I look good and I am a style icon”.

          More like
          “stupid bet, 24 hours and i can get rid of this shit”

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