When the Jays inexplicably re-signed an currently- and chronically-injured Dustin McGowan last spring, a lot of folks pointed to the people-pleasing, “good faith” aspects of the deal as justification for what was otherwise a very suspect decision. The Jays, those of us who scoffed were told, need to make sure they’re viewed in a positive, player-friendly light more than most. It’s hard to get players to want to play here, the theory goes, so the club sometimes does right by players who may not necessarily deserve it in the cold light of reality– or some such nonsense.

Helping John Buck position himself better for free agency by withholding playing time from JP Arencibia is another example of an attempt by the club to do right by a player, presumably to improve their stead among players and agents across the league.

And sure, I guess it might make a few people all warm and fuzzy to think of the club valuing such things, yet, when it comes down to it, the thing is… it’s really pretty fucking useless.

This is pro sports. It’s a business. It isn’t always pretty. And this kind of veneer is always going to eventually wear thin.

Ask Carlos Villanueva! As I noted deep down within yesterday’s post, Alex Anthopoulos told reporters he was concerned about the pitcher’s ability to hold up over a full season worth of starts– something Villanueva has never done, has never been asked to do. The GM went as far as to say that, “I don’t know if Carlos could tell you if he could pitch 200 innings.”

Turns out, the free-agent-to-be didn’t care so much for that, as we learned last night via our old friend Tony Ambrogio of Sportsnet:

 

 

 

I entirely get both sides of this. Anthopoulos was just being honest, and would have looked foolish for not having re-signed Villanueva already if he hadn’t been able to articulate his concerns. And, obviously, Carlos doesn’t have to like what the GM says.

What gets me, though, is the whole business of pretending things are any other way. I dunno…

At BlueJays.com, Gregor Chisholm has more from Villanueva on his impending contract situation.

Comments (107)

  1. Let’s face it CV is NOT coming back. Alex would have signed him already if he wanted him. Fact is CV is a long man and the jays don’t need any more relievers. If they’re going to spend money it’s going to be on a proven starter which isn’t CV. Otherwise he has to take reliever money. CV needs to give his head a shake. Nobody out there is going to be giving him some big deal. He’s looking at 2years 10 mil max

    • I think he’ll very possibly get more than your max.

      • Show me the comparables.

        • Too busy to look at the moment, but Parkes was telling me that he and Mike Axisa of MLBTR/River Ave. Blues were tweeting about it and hit on something like 3/16– if memory serves. It was definitely more than the deal Capuano got from the Dodgers last year, which was the 2/10 you speak of (though, I know, I know, Ned Colletti deals can’t be used as comparables).

          • Comparables from the past two offseasons that I’ve identified after a quick search. These are literally the only FA SPs that got multi-year deals on the open market that weren’t elite SPs or coming over from Japan.

            Aaron Harang – 2/12
            Paul Maholm – 2/10.75 (2nd year is a club option)
            Chris Capuano – 2/10
            Bruce Chen – 2/9
            Kevin Correia – 2/8

            I don’t think the possibility of him getting 2/10 on the open market is that outlandish. There’s virtually no precedent of a guy like this getting 3 years on the open market.

            The ONLY FA starting pitchers that have gotten more than a 2 year deal on the opening market in the past 2 offseasons are Mark Buerhle, Darvish, Wei-Yin Chen, CJ Wilson, and Cliff Lee. Anybody that offers Villanueva 3 years will be breaking new ground.

          • Aaron Harang – 2/12 – 170 IP
            Paul Maholm – 2/10.75 – 162 IP
            Chris Capuano – 2/10 – 186 IP
            Bruce Chen – 2/9 – 155 IP
            Kevin Correia – 2/8 – 147 IP

            These are the numbers from 2011 for these players. All of whom had similar numbers of IP the previous season.

          • Carlos V – 107 IP
            The most he ever pitched was 114 back in 2007 for the Brewers.

          • Your point is taken, but he was 23 and pitched 11 of those starts in AA ball, and 11 in AAA.

        • $10mil over 2 years is reasonable, therefore he will get more than that. The comparable is that the free agent market is never reasonable, therefore he will make more money and sign for more years.

          • Actually no. Carlos pitched 182.1 innings in 2006, only not all of them were in the majors. He was 22. He suffered no ill effects from doing so.

            Can’t say how he’d hold up doing that over, say, 3-4 years but he’s shown he can do it.

    • “Fact is CV is a long man and the jays don’t need any more relievers”

      In 13 starts last year, CV was league average. In 13 starts this year, he is quite a bit better than league average. Your “fact” is highly suspect here. AA is correct in his assessment that there is a very real risk that CV could not handle a full season starting, but to say that it is a fact that he can’t is completely baseless. If CV finishes the season pitching decently, then there is a very good chance he lands a job somewhere as a starter.

      • No. It’s not baseless. Carlos, when forced to start last season due to pitcher injuries looked good for the first 80 innings or so and then kind of sucked. Before this season started, AA made a point of saying that they were not going to put him in that position again and that he would be in the pen all season. Now, obviously that did not happen as all hell broke loose on our rotation and he was forced out of the pen. He has performed well, but he is only at 111 innings, so he still is unlikely to pitch over 130 innings, so extrapolating over 200 innings and identifying his value is going to be difficult.

    • Yes. The Jays don’t need any more relievers, because there’s no way they’d lose, say, 4 starting pitchers to injury at the same time.

  2. Can someone explain why everyone keeps saying CV is a free agent but BR shows that he’s arb eligible so the jays could just offer him arb and keep him.

  3. Alex tries to soften the market on Carlos.
    Carlos gets pissed.
    Jays lose Carlos.
    Well played, Alex.

    • doubt that he couldn’t have foreseen a negative reaction

    • Oh please… Maybe Carlos is trying to harden up the market for himself. At the end of the day, the player is not dealing with the GM day in and day out. If he likes his team-mates, coaches and the city, and the money is there, he’ll be back.

      • He’s replaceable. Do you really want a rotation with a some combination of CV, Haap, Laffey, CV, Alvarez, following Morrow and a wonky Romero?
        Let him walk and get a real starter.

        • He’ll be back in the same capacity is what my point was. A swingman and spot starter.

          • Sounds to me that we all agree that CV has done a really credible job for the Jays this year, but his value isn’t that great to the team next year cause there are a lot of pitchers that look like him.

  4. For a club in desperate need for pitching, for me carlos is a very important re-sign. Even if he’s not in the starting 5, we will obviously at some point have pitching injuries and need depth. He can easily transition from swingman to No. 4 or 5 starter mid season if need be, which would also lessen his yearly workload. I think sometimes we put too much importance on stuff, when it’s really about the results. And in our division with the offences we face and the ballparks we play in, to have the results CV has gotten in the second half of the year is pretty impressive.

    • But if he wants to get paid like a starter, are we going to fork out that money for a swingman who makes 8-10 starts?

    • IF AA actually goes out and gets two legitimate starters (which he fucking better!), then your swingman is J.A. Happ. SP1?, SP2?, Morrow, Romero, Alvarez is fine. We dont need to overpay CV for another bullpen arm. Even if Alvarez starts the season in AAA (which HE fucking better), you still have other internal options like Cecil (gag!) and Hutchison if hes back in time. Bottom line, why spend $5m/year for CV when you already have a few CV types. Not needed. Save the money for an ESTABLISHED starter, you know… what this team REALLY needs?

      • We do not have a few CV types, we have a few shit types, not the type to pitch a 3-4 ERA over the course of the season.

  5. I don’t think a 3 year deal is anywhere near crazy for CV. At best, he’s a middle of the rotation guy who will start 30 games a year, at worst he’s a valuable longman in the pen who can spot start a couple games in case a starter goes down, and virtually every team needs the spot starter every once in a while. I’d be fine with 2/12 for Carlos, or even 3/18 if the third year is a club option.

    • I’d be surprised to see CV make 30 starts in a season. His arm would fall off. He’s not used to pitching that many innings… and even if he made it through 180 ip unscathed, you can be his arm will be fatigued. I agree with keeping him if we can keep it a team friendly deal, (which I do NOT consider 3/18m). I’d rather go after EJax or Peavy.

      • You can go after whoever you want, it doesn’t mean you get them.

        I could be wrong, but with the extra wildcard spot I think the market is going to go insane over the limited quality free agents.

        It wouldn’t shock me if CV got 3/15 on the open market.

        As far as I’m concerned, the key to all of this is CV willing to battle for the 5th spot and being amenable to a move back to the bullpen if it makes sense. If he doesn’t agree, then of course it makes sense for both parties to move on.

        The Jays have some serious pitching issues and resigning CV to be part of the mix shouldn’t be a concern. If it is, then Rogers is cheaper than we thought.

        When the club was rebuilding, it was perfectly acceptable to make promises to guys like John Buck. It netted the team a draft pick and gave them solid production for a year.

        As the team is (hopefully) on the verge of contending, it HAS to be based on merit and what is best for the team. And that means CV can be given a chance, but not a guarantee.

  6. #PayCarlos #ButNotTooMuch #AndNotForTooLong

  7. Even 4 years, 20 million isn’t exactly absurd. That’s 5 million a year, which is pretty much the going rate for a middling reliever.

    • why in Hell would you sign a reliever for 4 years? even Papelbon “only” got 4 guaranteed years. signing a free agent reliever for 4 years is sheer lunacy.

  8. I fail to see how anything negative comes out of extending McGowan (injured or not) earlier this year, considering the monetary size of the contract.
    Really bothers me that people criticize the move. It’s not like that money is hindering other signings; it’s really a case of an opportunity to sign high end talent for next to nothing (made possible by the injury history of said player).
    If he never plays again, so what; it’s worth the risk considering his abilities (if and when healthy) exceed the cost.

    • Well, since you obviously have access to the books over at Rogers Centre, we will have to take you word on that, but in my humble opinion, paying three million dollars for ZERO innings pitched is a terrible fucking travesty of a deal.

      I know it is probably an unfathomable amount of money to you but with a little thought you will realize that it is a lot of fucking money. It is the equivalent of 50 managers in other departments at Rogers.

      • And god knows what every corporation needs is another 50 managers!

        • I am talking about the value of a dollar to the company. It’s how decisions get made in the real world.

      • McGowan is eating up all of 0.018% of this years’ payroll – I call that NOT blocking another signing and I can do that confidently without seeing “the books”.

        AA took is using McGowan’s most recent injury as an opportunity to underpay him; whereas some Jays fans are using it as an opportunity to feel sorry for themselves.

        3M is worth the risk, IMHO, without any hesitation.

        • Based on his track record of injuries, I would strongly disagree. Find me an expert who hasn’t said it was a goodwill move.

          • Goodwill at $3 million: alright I guess.
            Goodwill at $20 million: a fair bit less palatable.

          • Not a goodwill move.

          • And then there’s Adam Lind….thats really a lot of goodwill there for 2013

          • What the fuck does an “expert’ have to do with this?

            The transaction is risk/reward like any other. The risk in signing Jose Bautista was a $65 million sunk cost.

            The risk with McGowan is a $3 million sunk cost.

            How people keep spinning this into their own bullshit narratives about goodwill is beyond me.

  9. For a GM who is usually tight lipped about these sort of things, what’s with the sudden change. Using the media for posturing or just a change in public relations?

    • He’s sick of being criticized so he threw a player under the bus to illustrate to the public why he hasn’t resigned him yet, which he has been getting slagged for.

    • Thats what my thought was too. Only conclusion I can seem to draw from this is that CV isnt exactly one of “AA’s guys” as the term goes.
      Feels like to me after this exchange, its nearly cemented that CV will go somewhere else. Which I find upsetting. Whether he is the swingman, or the 5th starter, or both, hes a very valuable pitcher and has shown that for a few years now.

      • Agreed. Strikes me as incredibly hypocritical of AA as well. When he screws up, everything is hush hush, we have a team policy not to talk about anything blah blah blah, but when he starts taking flack directly, he all of a sudden throws a player under the bus as a scapegoat for the criticism against him? Is he Brian Colangelo all of a sudden?

        • You’re basing this entirely on your own notion of trying to deflect blame.

          It’s pretty easy to come to a bullshit conclusion when you’re leaping from your own bullshit premise.

  10. If you assume that the jays are going after 1 elite starter like a peavy/shields then it makes CV redundant because that 5th spot will go to alvarez and then one of drabek/hutch when healthy.

    I would rather spend 12 mil on peavy than 6 on carlos.

    • Most people are hoping Alvarez gets a year in the minors to work on a 3rd pitch. His arsenal just isn’t effective enough at this point – he needs a pitch he can use to strike batters out.

  11. Our 2nd best SP is mad and now seems to be going bye bye….

    Not a promising day in Blue Jay land

  12. The optics of this are brutal. Your closer broke on delivery. Half your starters are broken. You pay a guy millions to stay broken. The one guy who steps up and does one heck of a job. “He’ll break”.

    I’m sure there is more going on behind the scenes then this. Do we have more data on Carlos’ type of situation?

  13. Even thought CV has been surprisingly good, I’d rather the Jays focus on bringing in some SP that has a higher ceiling than an emergency 5th starter – no disrespect to CV.

    As a guy who comes out of the bullpen and can make a bunch of starts if needed.

    After the year we’ve had – any arms will help I guess. But if Alex is thinking about his starting 5 for next year I certainly hope he’s aiming higher than he did this past season with reclamations slated for 34 starts.

  14. Very bad move by AA to crap on CV in public like that. Maybe in March after he’s already signed two SPs he likes better, you can justify why you didn’t resign CV. But at this point, when he might still very well be one of your better options out there once the market is set (certainly he’s one of the best low risk high reward options out there regardless), why close the door on him now?

    • He wasn’t closing the door, though, just pointing out the very real reasons why they haven’t jumped at the chance to do something with him yet.

      • It’s unlikely he’ll resign after the GM pissed him off like that, unless he really doesn’t get any offers on the market, which is unlikely

      • Publicly criticizing your own player, with a true statement or not, in a contract year is definitely closing the door on him. Why would Carlos want to sign for this guy now when he’s actively tried to diminish his open market value?

        • What criticism?? 80% of his talk was glowing. The fact that CV has no history of injury-free large amounts of innings is just a fact.

          Even if he would play for free, would you want the “PLAN A” for next year to be that this guy who has never thrown 120 innings suddenly throws 200 (and throws them as well as he has been in his best starts)?

          • re-read my comment and most notably where I state “with a true statement or not” just because he stated something true about Carlos doesn’t mean it still wasn’t a criticism. By wondering if he can pitch 200 innings, you are implying that you think he can’t. That’s criticism.

        • Its entirely possible that CV may have tuned down a contract offer from AA already. Maybe its AA who’s pissed and he’s trying to keep CV’s value down.

      • I am doubtful that AA would have publicly said anything about the risks associated with signing CV if he thought that there was a realistic chance that he would re-sign him in the off-season. That’s not been AAs style to date.

        • That’s not what’s being contested here. The point was that maybe AA should still be trying to sign him in the offseason, which obviously isnt happening now.

      • Yeah but AA is the master of talking but not saying anything. ‘We’re very happy with the way Carlos performed this season. We’re weighing up all the options right now.’ is all he has to say. So when he says something concrete like that it’s because there is a reason. My bet is that CV’s agent has tried to play hardball, been clumsy about it and AA has walked away with a bad taste in his mouth. And, no, I don’t see Villanueva in a Jays uniform next year, which given the pitching landscape in this team makes me very unhappy.

      • One thing that people seem to forget is that Carlos started making his demands via the press, so it’s a bit rich to give AA shit for doing the same.

        I like Villanueva and think he’s earned he opportunity to start the season at the bottom of the rotation. That said, I wouldn’t be sad if we picked up two quality starters as insurance that any of Romero, Happ or Viallnueva shit the bed next season.

        • There’s probably truth to what you’re saying.

          I can;’t really think of people angling for contracts through the media in the AA era. Perhaps the message is if you angle for a contract through the media then AA will give it back.

  15. It is hard to give a guy starter’s money and a rotation spot when he’s never done it over a full season. The fact is that his arm wore out after 10 starts last year. We’ll see how he fares in his last couple of starts.

    It looks like the league is starting to catch up to him.

    Prediction: Signs with the Royals next year, has a great first half, and a shitty second half.

    • um, 3 years 18M is not really that much for a potential starter. It would cost about that much to get an “established innings eater”, who is really just a borderline 5th starter without the potential to have a sub-4.00 ERA that CV has.

      Look at how much guys like Joe Saunders or Jeremy Guthrie are getting paid this year (notwithstanding their recent success)

      • The market for FA inning-eaters has dissipated. Teams have gone to internal arms to fill out the back end of their rotations. #4/#5 starters rarely get multi-year deals and never get more than 2 years anymore. 2 years/$10 million is about what you’re looking at it for this type of player.

        • Teams get desperate. NOBODY thought Carl Crawford’s contract was tradable, but the Dodgers wanted A-Gone so bad they took it. Frankly if it ends up a choice of CV back at 5 million or actually getting a #3 start for 12 million. I hope AA rolls with the latter.

      • I would FAR rather put that 6M a year toward a top of the rotation starter.

  16. Why do people keep saying it’s not that much money re: mcgowan. Do you realize how much money alex wastes on role players? 1.5 on mcgowan, 1.5 on mathis, 1.5 on ben francisco, 3 mil on rajai, 1.5 on omar. Combine all that money and you could get 1 very good player and use AAA players like mccoy, gomes, d’arnaud, gose to fill the roles.

    This has been alex’s problem, he continues to waste money on non impact players.

    • That is such a ridiculous comment. Omar is retiring. Ben is gone. Rajai is an option, may or may not be exercised, Matthis has done a fantastic job for 1.5. Only McGowan makes no sense.

    • Uh, because every team needs a bench?

      Would you rather be playing whoever our AA catcher is two games a week over Mathis at 1.5?

  17. My gut reaction when I initially read AA’s comments was that he was laying the foundation for being able to explain to the fans in December why CV was allowed to walk away via free agency.

    • Do you really want CV as a member of the rotation? Aside from because of an injured pitcher?

      • Yes, he’s been their best pitcher this year. Why the fuck wouldnt you want a sub 4 era starter who’s pitched half the season? To say you wouldn’t makes you an idiot

  18. Everyone is so high on Carlos but the fact is, he’s never pitched 120 innings let alone 200. His agent thinks he can get starter money and AA is not buying it, and rightfully so. He is 29 years old. At that age, I find it doubtful that he is all of a sudden going to be able to give 30+ good starts. He will have a home here if he takes the money for a decent reliever with a bonus for spot starting. I don’t know if any team is going to give him any more.

    And as I said above, he doesn’t sit in the bullpen or dugout with AA so his feelings there are completely irrelevant. As long as he feels negotiations are honest, there is no reason he is going to say no because of AA’s comments.

  19. It’s not uncommon for a GM and player to disagree, but I really don’t like it when it becomes public, and the Jays are pretty good at keeping things on the down-low. I’m assuming Anthopoulos said a little too much, and this will be the last we hear of the issue until CV, presumably, walks away.

  20. But even you have taken a ton of separate, distinct points AA mentioned and summed it up with “Alex Anthopoulos told reporters he was concerned about the pitcher’s ability to hold up over a full season worth of starts”.

    I know you aren’t saying that’s ALL he said, but still, he didn’t even say that (not literally) and he said a bunch of other positive things like:

    “Last year, when he had an extended look, very good for eight and then the other four there were some durability issues there. But I think the conditioning, I think he learned from that, he prepared himself better in the spring and so far he has done a very good job, he’s maintaining his stuff.”

    I think you and CV both need to realize 80% of AA’s talk was glowing. CV should be thrilled. Does he expect AA to pretend it is assumed he will pitch 200 innings? I think CV should not only read the full transcript but also LISTEN to how off the cuff AA is being. I’m sorry, CV is being ridiculous.

    If we get even one top of the rotation starter in the offseason, I don’t even know who we are supposed to kick off the rotation for CV. Alvarez is 22 and quite good for that age, in the AL East. Happ has good stuff. Romero, Morrow? I have no clue when CV concluded he is the next big thing in baseball.

    • The real problem here is the incredibly stupid media who misrepresent someone else’s comment in a question that is emotionally challenging for a player. Like when someone told Ricky that Dirk H said he was an embarrassment. There is little that a team can do about this, but in here we can all scream about the MORON who asked the question in such a way as to create the situation we are discussing.

  21. Why would AA overpay on the open market and give a multi year contract to a swing man, when he can just keep Aaron Laffey?

  22. Carlos is not some stud pitcher who’s suddenly going to give you 200 ip era 3.5 after being a reliever his whole career. His career era as a starter is 4.57. He’s not fooling anyone. Nobody gave him the starters job because he wasn’t that good at it. He was much better as a reliever.

    Carlos is the one who first started talking smack by saying he has to be paid as a starter. Well then carlos why don’t you sign a 1 year deal and pitch your 200 innings then come back next year and talk smack. Otherwise you’re a swingman and will be paid as such.

  23. Personally I don’t get the innings issue. Granted he hasn’t logged a full season of starters innings prior to this but a lot of prospects come in with reduced inning loads as well. Young starters like Alvarez went from 112 in 2010 to 151 last year with excellent results in the minors as have a ton of other pitchers. Who is to stay Villanueva can’t do the same thing especially with a different winter regime of preparation?

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’d rather have a starter go 6 excellent innings every night than have someone go 7 and allow another run or two especially if the bullpen is decent. Since ours looks to be in very good shape for next year I don’t see 6 innings of excellence to be a problem from your 4th or 5th stater. AA has made much about 7 or more innings from starters but he wouldn’t be paying CV like a 200 quality inning stud so I don’t know what the problem is.

    Below are the average innings per start from the Jays starting rotation this year.

    Romero – 5.75
    Morrow – 5.83
    Drabek – 5.47
    Hutchison – 5.29
    Alvarez – 6.00
    Villanueva – 6.00
    Happ – 5.52
    Laffey – 5.68

    As you can see, the lack of stamina they are questioning really is a non-issue when you look at the big picture. The other Jays starters supposedly have a lot more of it but various reasons they aren’t able to consistently put in 6 innings because of things like inefficiency or just being bad. BTW just for reference not one starter on the Rays has averaged 7 innings this year. In fact there’s only a couple of starters in the entire majors that barely crack the 7 inning per start mark.

    As for all the Happ lovers here I will admit there’s a glimmer of potential there but that’s mostly in his FIP numbers and since his rookie season he hasn’t come close to matching those numbers with actual results. Unlike Morrow, Happ isn’t some stud in waiting where the FIP just screams there’s better days to come. With Happ you’ve had him put up seasons where he’s had 5.35 ERA with a 4.69 FIP in 2011 and a 4.79 ERA and 4.02 FIP this year. His ERA as a starter with Toronto is marginally better at 4.59 but he’s got the advantage of not being seen by most of the AL or if so not often.

    Villanueva on the other hand has been in the AL for 2 years now and put up an ERA of 3.58 and a FIP of 3.87 as a stater this year and more importantly injury free.

    Considering AA hasn’t signed anyone to improve the rotation for next year it makes little sense for AA to make the comments that he did. There’s no guarantee that any free agent pitcher is going to want to come here for competitive reasons not to mention the rash of well publicized pitching injuries this season even if that’s totally unfair to the club. Unfortunately, it’s all about perception.

    For what Villaneuva would likely be able to command it seems like it would be a no-brainer in locking up Villanueva for at least 2 years. Considering Cecil, Jenkins, McGuire and other experiments have proven that they’re not very reliable depth going forward, it would be smart to sign Villanueva and push either Alvarez and Happ down the depth chart for now as neither have shown that they are any better than Villanueva.

    Settling on Alvarez and Happ at this point over Villanueva for whatever reason just seems like the Jays are settling for more of the same mediocrity we’ve seen from the rotation the last couple of years. I thought the goal was for improvement? I don’t see how they do that unless Alvarez and Happ take a huge step forward. I’m not saying it’s impossible just not very likely.

    • +2/$10 million for this comment.

      My question is this…how many starts does the average 5th starter actually make? With off days, would I be correct in thinking that the number is around 25 – 30?

      If so, if CV is capped at 6 innings per start, we’d be looking at 180 innings max. If he craps the bed is some starts and/or has less than 30 starts, that number will obviously be lower. It would seem to me that if they sign him for two years, they could stretch him to 150 – 180 innings, and he could then market himself as a starter at the end of the contract while the Jays get a pretty useful 5th starter.

  24. If AA genuinely believes Villeneuva isn’t ready to start full-time, he should have bit his lip, let him sign somewhere else, and explain his views after the fact. There’s absolutely no good reason to publicly question the guy at this point of the season; considering that he’s done everything that’s been asked of him so far, Villenueva’s right to be miffed. This was a classless move by AA.

    Beyond that, I’m not sure what’s suddenly brought on this bout of selectiveness; it’s not exactly like we’re rich in starting pitching options. There’s such an inconsistent line here. We’ll throw money at McGowan and Laffey and any basically any cheap warm body in the off season in the hopes of finding a diamond in the rough but we won’t even entertain the notion of having a discussion with our best SP about a multi-year deal because he hasn’t proven himself yet?

    I do not understand the strategy here one bit.

  25. Let’s get a grip here. The guy is a passable 4 or 5, if he can pitch 50 innings more than he did in 11 when his shoulder fell off. His ‘heater’ sits at 87 / 89. He is not Cy Young. He isn’t even Happ or Alverez IMO. Happ and Alverez are better choices for those spots.
    Me, I’ll go another year with Romero in the 3 slot, and a guy with a much better arm than the Vil, to join Morrow at the top.
    And Stout One, we get your beer fueled foolishness about Roger’s coin given to an injured arm, who still had the best stuff the org has ever seen. Including Steib, and everybody since then. He’s worth a gamble. Last time he pitched, he sat at 93 / 95. Fucksticks buddy, quit whining like it is your money. Jeez. You blah blah blah about this over and over.
    Give it a fucking rest.

  26. I have no problem with the McGowan signing. 3 million is life changing to me or you but it’s peanuts to a MLB team. Yes it didn’t work out but the Jays chose not to sign CHris Carpenter coming off TJ and several question marks and all he did was win a CY, a World Series and A WS MVP.

    It was a lottery ticket, if it hit great, if not then it wasn’t your 3 million bucks and it certainly didn’t prevent the Jays from signing a big ticket guy.

    As for the Jays doing player friendly things like giving Buck at bats to help him on the FA market I also think they did the right thing. Attracting FA’s to Canada has been tough. Players have allready mentioned the hassle of customs, playing on turf, and very little media attention from the U.S. If these small tokens do anything to improve the players view of playing in Toronto then I think it’s worthwhile.

    • +1000

    • +1,000,000

      People are either being revisionist or missing the point with John Buck.

      The promise AA made may very well have been the difference between signing him and getting the Type B pick/potential trade asset and him signing somewhere else. It was sound asset management.

      As for McGowan, for some reason Stoeten continually goes with the strawman “goodwill” narrative while conveniently ignoring the stronger arguments for the signing.

      Limited risk, medium reward.

      If one wants to use the dollar/WAR argument and suggest that McGowan, for example, needs around 0.6 WAR over the life of the contract, the inverse shouldn’t be ignored.

      If McGowan doesn’t meet his WAR expectations, the worst case scenario is losing 0.6 WAR that he was paid for.

      Oh well.

  27. meh!
    Villaneuva has telegraped a few times he wants starter money w/o ever saying what that means, although I would presume his agent has said things behind closed doors.
    Even when I played in A ball, players ( and bosses) are always vying for the next step in the possible negotiation process.
    I thnk that it is likely CV’s camp has floated a number in $$ and perhaps term that AA is not comfortable with and is posturing to get it down and then he will resign him-if not he walks I guess. However, the Jays have a cupboard full of guys who throw 86-90 with decent breaking stuff and Ok control and really CV is one of them.
    I think they better be thinkin higher as in E.Jackson, perhaps Peay if he’ll go for 17-18m( his option with the chisox is22m!) or maybe even Dempster who is really a no3 in my book.
    Myself I was always posturing telling e’body my curve was major league ready but in reality it was just Ok and my fastball was Josh Towers-light and so that was it. I would have taken season tix for the canucks games but couldn’t ebevn get that, CV onthe other hand will likely get 2/9.5 or so or perhaps 3/15 from someone dumb like Minn or KC

    • Amen…I do Peavy in a NY minute, and E Jack as a fallback would not be all bad. If I’m going to gamble, I would be scouting the everliving shit out of Dan Haren, who has had his first down season in 10. I think the Angels turn down the option; if my scouts say he can bounce back, I would gamble on him instead of the Vil. Every day of every week and twice on Sundays.

    • Definitely disagree with your comment when about the Jays having plenty of guys like Villanueva. While it’s true their stuff might be similar the fact is they have proven they can’t come close to executing any where close to the level Carlos has done.

      In addition to his 3.58 ERA he had a 3.09 ERA in his first 10 starts in 2011 before he got into injury trouble and tried to pitch through it. Even if you want to include all but his last start he had a 3.79 ERA.

      The fact is when Villanueva is healthy, Alvarez and Happ just haven’t been able to match his performance regardless of how hard they throw.

      As for Peavy or Jackson I would love to have those guys as well. The thing is we ideally would need at least one of them in addition to someone much cheaper like Villanueva.

  28. The Jays will rue the day they let Carlos go. Let’s say you get him for 2/12 and used as a swingman. If the Jays’ rotation is injury free next year then no harm no foul. If they (heaven forbid) suffer another shoulder or elbow injury in 2013, and Carlos fills in, it is a very sound investment. Either way, it’s a no lose.

    People who think that a CV extension would prohibit AA from pursuing a “bonafide” starter are either delusional, or hopelessly pessimistic of Rogers’ capacity to spend.

    • I would piggyback Nicolino and Avendano in the 5 hole before I would promise a starter’s spot to Vil. AA did his best to answer a question in a neutral way. Vil went to the media to negotiate a new deal.
      As far as I am concerned, that makes him kryptonite…colour him gone.

  29. CV will do very well on the FA market. I bet he does a little better than 2/10.

    • Bully for him, as long as it isn’t a guaranteed starter spot in Toronto.

    • I agree with you Dave especially if he finishes the season strongly. Considering he’s a bit homer prone I think it would be a coup for some team with a bigger park like San Fran or Seattle to snatch him up. I am amazed at how little credit he’s given simply because he hasn’t pitched a ton of innings yet. Starters that can manage an ERA under 4.00 in AL East in a hitting friendly park don’t exactly grow on trees.

      The great thing about Villanueva and his innings cap for next season would be the fact that you’ve got Hutchison and Drabek due back late in 2013. If you need to shut Carlos down come September you’ve got 2 ready made replacements on hand.

      You could even structure his contract so that it’s back loaded to the 2nd year. Doing that saves you money in 2013 and reduces the risk he might be a dud over the longer haul because you could always move him after the 2013 season. You’d have Hutchison, Drabek and potentially one of the more advanced Lansing 3 available by then going in 2014. There really is no downside unless there ends up being very little extra money left for free agents this winter. If that’s the case then this team has bigger problems.

  30. Have you all forgotten the real story here? Tony Ambrogio is a Gina trucking douchebag. AA’s comment are taken a bit out of context when you listen to the whole interview, it’s ridiculous.

    I’ve always fucking hated Ambrogio, God I hate that guy.

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