In a must read piece at Sportsnet, Shi Davidi talks to Travis Snider, Cito Gaston, and Gene Tenace for part one of a three part series on how Snider, now a Pirate– and struggling, with a .246/.321/.331 line in Pittsburgh, and only six starts in the month of September– went from being a wildly hyped prospect to not just expendable, but expendable enough to deal for Brad fucking Lincoln.

It’s a fascinating piece, which reinforces a lot of what we probably already felt about that part of Snider’s saga, but that fills in a lot of the gaps for us, and adds some crucial new information– the fact, explored in one of the next installments, that he turned down a long-term deal with the club, for example.

Now, it’s no secret that the relationship between Travis Snider and Cito Gaston was extremely strained, but Davidi pieces together how it went so badly awry so quickly. The lack of finesse of the old school, tough, approach of hitting coach Gene Tenace soured things from the get-go– literally two hours into Snider’s big league career, when Tenace saw him in the batting cage. Snider replied in the affirmative when asked if he had always finished his swing with two hands, to which Tenace replied, “You might want to change that if you want to stay at this level.” (Tenace denies this version of the event, explaining, “I might have brought it up to him, but I never told him he had to change it.”)

Thus began, as Davidi paints it, an endless series of tinkering, questioning, counterintuitive and mixed messaging– such as an insistence from the coaches on limiting Snider’s natural ability to hit the ball to all fields by forcing him to pull the ball, or his being ”eased” into the lineup and hidden from lefties, a tactic which confused and hurt Snider, who was chided by his teammates, and which is curiously explained away by Cito, who explains that “there are some guys who can take it from their teammates, some guys that can’t. He’s got to be able to take it.”

Part of the tinkering included with pre-at-bat conversations with Gaston– something that was devised by Cito after the front office requested he pay close attention to the needs of Snider and Adam Lind– which Lind enjoyed and felt helped him, while Snider was only put deeper into a mental hole.

“It put me in a position to overthink situations,” he explains. “I’d sit down and say this is what I’m looking for, I watched film on this guy for 30 minutes, I watched his last three starts, I have a good feel for his tendencies, and then hear, ‘No, you shouldn’t look for that, you should look for this.’ ”

And when he asked for these conversations to stop, “he felt as if Gaston washed his hands of him,” David writes.

“If he had come in and said why … to just come in and say he couldn’t handle it, I guess that’s enough reason, but really not, it’s not reason enough. I think sometimes you can be taken as saying I don’t need any help, I’m going to do it my own way,” Cito explains. “I’m certainly not going to mess with someone and their career if they’re going to do it their own way. They will either succeed or won’t succeed.”

I mean… seriously???

The article, though, isn’t a mere excercise in Cito bashing– easy as that may be, though in my view the worst should be saved for the desperate, craven halfwits who allowed such an absurdly set-in-their-ways, out-of-touch group to start fucking around with the club’s prized assets, fully aware of the futility of the experiment and the flaws of the one-size-fits-all approach that would be implemented, yet more concerned with saving face and their jobs than actually doing what would have been best for the franchise.

Sure, Davidi’s piece revisits and illuminates all of that good old stuff, making clear the fact that, while Lind, and obviously Jose Bautista, took to Cito and Geno’s teachings, their approach miserably failed others– and, I should add, certainly wasn’t the One True Path to reinvention in Bautista’s case, despite what Cito apologists would have you believe (for an example of similar magic, see: Encarnacion, Edwin)– but Snider owns up to his own failings, admitting that behind the focused, mature, intelligent exterior he projected, he was bitter, confused, and unsure of himself or how to handle his lack of success.

The in-revolt clubhouse culture by the end of 2009 didn’t help things either–”Compounding matters,” Davidi writes, “was the toxic atmosphere in the Blue Jays clubhouse, with players openly discussing their dislike of Gaston amongst one another, ill-feelings that exploded publicly during the season’s final series in Baltimore. Many of the decisions being made in the manager’s office were questioned, which made it easier for Snider to follow-suit”– but it’s not like Tenace was wrong that there was something amiss with Snider’s swing. Nor was Cito wrong for insisting it was more important to find room for Bautista than it was Snider. And it’s entirely unfair to act as though this kind of treatment and the confusion and questioning it bred in his early years “ruined” Snider, rather than just maybe set him back.

Hopefully, at the very least, it has taught the club a valuable lesson in how to manage people– even if it’s one that, in my view, they shouldn’t have had to learn in such a hard way.

Davidi’s second installment hits tomorrow. Should be a humdinger!

Comments (131)

  1. Let the shit storm in the comment section begin.

  2. Travis Snider saga. Story of a chubby outfielder who thought he is somebody.

  3. So they saw that he was late on the fastball right away.

  4. It’s not that surprising that Cito and Tenace were screwing around with him (I think we always assumed that to be the case), but the notable thing for me was how immature Snider was at that time. It sounds like it was his own mindset about their criticism/his situation as much as anything else that set him back.

    • Like I said in the previous string.A sense of entiltement.

      • I think we are kidding ourselves if we think the majority of young athletes are mature. Most are just like Snider, only many of them have managers and staff that can guide them towards success and maturity.

        I would take a 20 year old with Snider’s attitude and talent everyday of the week.

      • And hey, Cito washed his hands of him, so he’s totally off the hook for anything that happened after, right? Totally exactly what you want in a manager: someone isn’t hearing your message, don’t change how you’re delivering it– fuck him!

        • Or maybe a snot nosed 20 year old with a bad attitude who doesn’t want to listen to criticism of his swing.An admitted hothead, with anger issues and a sense of entitlement,wondering why everbody doesn’t just stand back and watch his greatness.

          Wondering about Cito again?

          • what are you talking about? Since when is Travis Snider Milton Bradley?

          • Again, RADAR, it’s the manager’s job to get through to him. And the front office’s job to have a manager capable of doing so. That you feel the need to paint such a caricature of Snider to help ease us past that obvious fact speaks volumes.

          • you just described every 20 year old imaginable and you over exaggerated his attitude.

          • @ Stoeten

            Nope, just offering an opposing viewpoint.Both sides seem to be at fault.And back at ya ,”That you feel the need to paint such a caricature of Cito to help ease us past that obvious fact speaks volumes.”
            So when Cito was gone for a year and a half,Snider was older and did he became the superstar he should have been?Or the ghost of Cito was still hanging over his shoulder?
            What’s the excuse now?

            • RADAR, what caricature of Cito am I painting? That it’s his job to help his players succeed? That is not a caricature.

              As for the other stuff, the fact that Snider continued to struggle when Cito left does not in any way excuse Cito for having fucked him around while he was here.

              And as for your caricature of Snider, as usual, you’ve taken a tiny kernel of what you think you might know about something– Snider’s personality– and built a completely false (or at least entirely unknowable) picture of it, from which you’ll start shooting your mouth off like you have the slightest clue what you’re talking about. You do this kind of thing all the time. It’s impossible to have a discussion.

          • Stoeten -

            I think the big thing I took from it is that there were some pretty big time mistakes on both parts: both a sense of entitlement/arrogance from a young Snider (that he now regrets), and a stodgy, stuck in his way manager who didn’t change his approach based on the player.

            It is the job of the manager to get through to his players…. but the player has to be willing to listen and accept criticism.

            It was just a very poorly handled situation from everyone involved.

          • You’re unbelievable Stoeten.You constantly pull out the “you weren’t there so you don’t know shit” card,instead of the here are the documented facts and why I’m wrong.
            If you want the links to back up my argument, I’ll produce them.
            But I thought it wouldn’t be neccessary because YOU have published them in DJF to begin with.
            How far removed from Cito, does Snider have to be, for him to reach his potential?

          • I think Stoeten should be proud of the community here: Apparently it’s full of the only people on earth who weren’t petulant jerks at 21 years old.

        • Snider soundslike more of a prima dona than I thought. But cheers to him for being so introspective and candid in this interview. Sounds like he’s grown a lot since he was 21.

          Cito Gaston comes off as the biggest prima dona though. Sounds like he was really, really offended by Snider not wanting to talk in-game.

        • +1 that’s what I find most disturbing about this article. Not everyone learns the same way, or can properly articulate why they arn’t capable of learning something a certain way, to blame Snider for not buying into Cito’s system is beyond ridiculous. In a professional organization, it is the leaders responsibility to adapt/evolve their techniques/message to suit the employees who are being taught it. I can’t believe the reins of this organization were handed to that senile old fuck for two whole seasons.

        • I should probably go back and re-read the piece to pull up the quote, but Snider says he “felt” Cito had washed his hands clean of him.

          I appreciate Snider’s straightforwardness, but what comes shining through in this piece is how Snider didn’t seem to be able to handle failure/criticism.

          There’s really nothing new here about Cito/Tenace other than Snider’s interpretation. They were a small part of the problem.

          But it’s a pretty big stretch to assume the only thing keeping Snider from superstardom was Cito.

          • you fail to see how the coach and hitting coach of a young 20 year old player had a huge impact on his development?

            not a stretch at all if you understand development or 20 year olds

        • Stoeten its a managers job to give a player the tools to succeed if the player choose to not try there is nothing a manager can do but sit him down or send him back to triple A. Oh wait he did that. I’m far from a Cito fan but to try and place blame on Cito is a joke. Lunchbox told him it wasn’t working for im

        • +1 Stoeten.

          Cito should have asked someone else to help nider if he didn’t want to anymore.

      • I didn’t get a “sense of entitlement” from the article. I don’t think that is it at all. Based on this, I would say that he didn’t take their criticism as well as he could have, though. Some guys are able to use such things as motivators.

        • dc

          That’s a little over the top. Regardless of talent to move up the minors to the MLB, it’s just as much about who can make adjustments. Snider could not make adjustments at the MLB level

          The success of young players is not 100% solely based on the manager. When a young player excels, they get the credit. Not the manager. I don’t see why Snider’s case should be anything different.

        • I think entitlement is the wrong word… perhaps ‘youthful arrogance’, “pride” or some other such descriptor. Either way, whatever it was, it was a hinderance to a young Snider, and that attitude being paired with a philosophy like Cito’s was a poor mix.

        • +1 BFF.

          It’s not an all or nothing blame Cito/Tenace or Snider dichotomy.

          Yes, Cito definitely sounds like he deserves blame. Moreso, imo, the people above him who gave him the job. They should know what you get with Cito, whether it was Godfrey or JP, and Beeston/AA for his final year farewell tour.

          You’ll hear former players credit Cito as the best hitting coach they’ve ever had. Clearly he did something right to connect with those players.

          And why people are quick to scoff at what he did with Bautista is beyond me. There is zero evidence that Bautista would have done what he did without Cito, same thing with Mel Queen and Doc.

          Now, the flip side is players he didn’t connect with/stalled their careers.

          This is why I like the idea of multiple hitting coaches.

        • Re: Fullmer

          To me it just drives home the point of how much things have changed from generation to generation, how the approach that used to work can’t just be applied the same way, and how ridiculous it was for the Jays to bring it into their clubhouse twenty years past its best before date.

          Totally agreed that Snider has a massive share of responsibility for why this relationship didn’t work, and obviously by now enough others have worked with him to have figured out a way to fix it, but like I said to RADAR, to me that doesn’t excuse Cito at all for his approach, or especially the people who cynically hired him to insulate themselves in his blanket of PR goodwill.

          • @ Stoeten.

            Yes, the people that deserve blame really are those who hired/kept Cito.

            Why would Cito change what he was doing if he was never asked to? He was hired to be a manager, without an employment-equity style interview, and did what he was hired to do.

            Now, I for one take issue with the fact that people act like Cito was all bad and that Jose Bautista, for example, could have turned into a superstar with anyone.

            But even if we want to believe that Cito was mostly a negative influence, blame JP/Godfrey and, to a lesser degree, Beeston/AA.

          • Stoeten,this I can agree with you.

          • Stoeten:

            Quick question: Do you think there is a similarity between Cito and Snider and TLR and Rasmus?

          • Kevin, I think there are some parallels, for sure.

            Jesus, imagine how Cito and Rasmus would have gone.

          • Or Cito and Escobar.

          • Yeah, I’m not giving Cito a pass for his one-size-fits-all approach and being stuck in his old ways. While what he said and did certainly worked for some, it seems his clubhouse was never very conducive at all to developing young players (and this goes back to Shawn Green).

            It’s just unfortunate, though I guess not all that surprising, that Snider didn’t respond better to that situation at the time (although, again, he was still putting up decent #s in 2009 and 2010).

          • @ Stoeten.

            So why did Beeston allow Cito to manage in 2010 when the team had a bunch of kids that needed new manager?

            It was wasting a year to help Cito save face after the clubhouse revolt in 2009.

          • 2 world series rings. a lifetime in the bigs. And you think that he should cater to a 20 year know-it-all who has done jack squat. I can tell from your position on this topic that you have never managed people, if you had you’d understand that what you suggest simply cannot be done.

        • @ BFF

          Huh?
          Quote
          ” for my personality type and for how hard I worked, it was going to be very hard for me to stay open-minded to any kind of suggestions or help they would try to give me.”
          “”I felt like why haven’t I earned that opportunity to get a chance to play every day?”"
          “”I felt I was putting myself in position to move forward as a young leader in that clubhouse.”

          Yup,very humble. No sense of entitlement here.

          • I don’t see entitlement. I see a young, immature player who is frustrated and confused by not getting a full, real opportunity and being benched after games in which he hit 2 HRs because they were facing left-handed studs like Glen Perkins.

            At the time, I was frustrated and confused right along with him.

          • Self of entitlement quotes would have read something along the lines of…
            ” for my personality type and for how hard I worked, it was going to be very hard for me to stay open-minded to any kind of suggestions or help they would try to give me considering that it should have been handed to me in the first place, being such a highly rated prospect.”

            or

            “”I felt like why haven’t THEY GIVEN ME MY opportunity to get a chance to play every day?”

            or even

            “”I felt I was RIPPED OFF WHEN I WAS IMMEDIATELY LABEL AS THE CLUBHOUSE LEADER.”

            Seems like he was properly building himself up to meet the expectations of every set of eyes that watched him befor the majors.

            You know how I complete my goals? I set myself up for them and earn my way towards them. Where have I heard that before???
            Stop being such a devil’s advocate…

      • Ah RADAR with a narrative.

        If we’re going to make stuff up, I think Snider’s problem was pretty much opposite of what you have guessed. I think Snider was too “Canadian” and too unsure of himself. He let these old fuddy-duddy’s get in his head after one game. He gave them too much respect.

        Imagine Lawrie in the same situation. He’d say “Oh… sure I’ll work on that” and then he’d go have a red bull and go smack a double to opposite field.

    • The thing is, why wouldn’t you take a day or two or five to see how Snider handles himself in game situations before sitting down with him to talk about his approach at the plate, see where he’s at? Instead, Geno chose to fuck with his mind right before his very first game, immediately putting some doubt into his mind when he should be brimming with confidence upon being called up. To me, that’s not how you should handle a rookie just up barely two hours.

  5. Should have given him a hug! In all seriousness, the article pretty much confirms what everyone suspected. I remember being 21 and hearing what my managers at the time told me in my job and my reaction was basically ‘eff these guys’.

  6. Snider has had a lot of time and a lot of at bats in the minors the past few years working on his mindset and his mechanics with people who are not Cito and Tenace. The results haven’t changed.

    I for one feel while Cito and Tenace weren’t that respected, there is no way that they should be held responsible for the last few years (and future years) of Snider’s MLB success or lack thereof

  7. It should be mentioned that Snider was still putting up decent enough numbers in 2009 and 2010 (at least far better than we’ve been getting out of LF for two seasons now).

    It was 2011 when Cito was gone that he really fell apart at the plate and then this year the Jays inexplicably didn’t even give him a chance. I hope the next part of the story answers a few questions about that period.

    • Wouldn’t it be something if some of Snider’s best years actually came under Cito, as unimpressive as they were.

  8. I wonder what the long term offer he turned down was.

    Guess we’re finding out tomorrow!

    • well if he offers up the details I don’t think the Jays will be too happy. Here’s hoping he did not divulge the details because that would be bush league.

      • I disagree. If he says “yeah they offered me a similar deal to Lind’s” who cares? AA is secretive because he personally doesn’t want to respond to media all the time. I doubt he cares if a player wants to volunteer it years later.

  9. In more important news Brett Lawrie is done with twitter!!!!!

    • did he tweet that?

    • Good. None of these guys should be on twitter. Reading a bunch of maniac fans stupidity can’t help you play. Romero especially – off all that shit. Baseball and fishing. Nothing else.

  10. It’s easy to forget how young Snider was (still is.) He was 20 during this. People don’t know shit when they are 20.

    • He’ll be back.

    • “It’s easy to forget how young Snider was (still is.) He was 20 during this. People don’t know shit when they are 20.”

      When did 20 become 16?

      What did I miss?

      • I think Joanna makes a great point in general. I used to see it in the even older kids I hired coming out of university who thought they knew it all yet continually proved otherwise with real life situations. Lack of experience is a bitch. However, that’s how most people eventually learn whether they are infants or adults. They push their boundaries, get slapped down and try it another way. For me it’s all about how you deal with getting slapped down. It looks like Snider is admitting he didn’t deal with it too well. That in itself is hardly unusual.

        • I have dealt with 18-22 year olds in business. Some are very intelligent & high tech savvy. Others are entiltled & do think they know it all.

  11. I think the most interesting thing about Snider is his pattern of rake then apparently endless struggling. Repeated in Pittsburgh. Some broken toys can’t be fixed.

  12. Travis Snider is clearly in a big readjustment phase – no doubt now dealing with even more tinkering with his swing in Pittsburgh. Nevertheless, I still think that his ability will start to come through when he’s given a full season to work it out.

    If he gets that shot, I’m pretty sure Travis will turn out to be a more valuable player than Brad Lincoln, Eric Thames or Moises Sierra.

  13. I thought the end of the Snider drama was one of the only bright spots this year…

    Guess that drama will never end

  14. Yes Cito screwed over Travis Snider.

    Or perhaps an aborted fetus has a brighter future than Travis Snider?

  15. In Part 3 I hear Travis finally shares his recipe for honey garlic ribs.

  16. Aborted fetus? Seriously. Classy lingo man.

    Is Yunel Escobar your writing coach?

    • Never thought I’d have to tell a “stoned jays fan” to mellow out…but yeh mellow out, what is this bluebirdbanter?

  17. I still don’t know how I feel about the Snider deal, mostly because it depends entirely on what left field looks like next year.

    AA could EASILY have gone into next year with Snider as the starter to ‘see what we have’ and I don’t think anyone would have complained. Instead he’s turned left field into a replacement level shithole, essentially forcing himself to find someone to fill the role in the offseason.

    If it turns out this was all some long term scheme to land Upton, I think it’s brilliant – Lincoln is exactly the kind of arm you want in your bullpen. If I’m watching Sierra and Davis zig zag to pop flies next year I have to think the deal was an unmitigated disaster. Left field is a very important offensive position and if you gave up on whatever Snider could’ve offered it had better be because you have a much better option in mind and not Rajai Fucking Davis.

    Unobjectively, I’m sad he’s gone and sadder he’s failing. Travis Snider took my prospect porn virginity – you never forget the first player you breathlessly overrate. Come to think of it, if Pittsburgh DFAs him next year… reunion?

    • Oh, I think we may see that he doesn’t find anyone for left-field. The Battle for Left Field Part II: Gose vs Sierra (with Rajai Davis as the winner??).

      • I don’t think that will be the case at all by the way AA is talking. I think Davis will be the 4th outfielder again and Gose will be back in AAA. AA has commented multiple times lately about not having a problem with these kids repeating AAA for another year.

        Then again it will really depend on how much the Jays end up spending.

        • Yes, it is possible they sign someone. How long a contract would they give out? If they hope on Gose or Sierra coming up in late 2013/2014, I guess it would be a short contract. Unless, of course they shuffle the deck a bit and something happens to Bautista (1st?) and/or Rasmus.
          I say they need rotation help. However, given how badly the offence has stunk the past couple of months, I guess they do need a new bat.

          • I think they could move Bautista to 1B in 2014 & have Edwin as DH or vice versa.

            This would create spots for Gose & Rasmus + Sierra or free agent acquisition if they don’t get Ortiz.

  18. It just goes to show that you can’t make judgements without knowing all of the facts. For years everyone has been ranting about the Jays screwing around Snider, but from this I get that he was a bit of a dick too along the way.

  19. ” the focused, mature, intelligent exterior he projected”

    When did that happen? Sure he didn’t act like petulant kid, but he never took his lack of success maturely. You, and almost every other Jays fan need to get over the fact that Snider just couldn’t hack it consistently enough to stay.

    And as much as you can shit on Cito, he was the manager, and failing to communicate with how and why these conversations weren’t helping him. I liked Snider and everything, but so sick of all the blame being thrown around to everyone except Snider. Just because he kept his mouth shut publicly as was brought up and down fromt he minors doesn’t make him poised and mature. Conversely the fact that he harboured resentment and bitterness and never communicated that, to our knowledge, to anyone until now shows a lack of maturity in communication.

    If my boss wants to meet with me everyday before work, even though I may not like it, i have to submit and can’t use the fact that he didn’t like that as an excuse.

    Now rosey cheeks, is in Pittsburg still shitting the bed several years post-Gaston. Pinning his continual failure on Gaston is immature and ignorant when it comes from the fans, the media (DJF), or Snider himself.

    • Is LF better since Rajai Davis took over full time?

      Davis is better than Fred Lewis or Juan Rivera but that’s not saying much.

  20. The problem with articles like these is it makes people want to pick a side, or a winner/loser. Regardless of any bias in the way it was written, or any of the he said/she said crap, there is no winner here.

    Even for those out there who feel this issue was Snider’s fault, I think you can agree that Cito’s 2nd coaching stint here was bad. For those of you hating Cito, you know as well as I do that Snider had (and still has) some growing up to do.

    Take this info objectively like the rest of the Blue Jay news all year because that’s exactly what this is. Davidi is stirring the pot here more than he is resolving the issue.

  21. I really have the sense that in a few years, the lincoln deal is going to look really really bad..

    My favourite part is when he was platooning with fred fuckin lewis, that worked out so well.

    Regardless of who snider is or isnt as a baseball player is not the point in this clusterfuck. the point is that he was never given an honest opportunity to figure it out while on the team.

    which is interesting considering how many chances lind, hill, davis, thames etc have been given to put up Snider esque numbers.

    Jays botched this one, whether Snider turns in to an all star or a 4th outfielder, they failed.

    • your last sentence is the money quote. Now that he has been traded, It is not the end result or lack thereof that is frustrating, it is the process and how they handled him.

    • I’ll never understand how Snider didn’t break camp with the team. It makes no sense that this year when the whole fucking point was to “see what we have” they decided the player they really needed to see more of was Eric Thames’ complete lack of ability. At worst, why couldn’t Snider have DH’d while Lind slit his wrists in the clubhouse?

      • I hope we find out more about that story because it made no sense at all for him to not get an opportunity this year. We’ve been starting a total scrub in Rajai Davis in LF for the better part of two seasons now and there was never any reason to think going into 2012 that Adam Lind would stop being useless.

    • +1.

      I would love AA to explin what he saw in Fred Lewis???

  22. This just makes me depressed.

  23. /wrists

  24. coaches are only there to facilitate work

  25. Maybe Travis could have a sit down with Billy Beane. Very similar stories.

    • Not even really knowing anything about him personally, I’ve thought for a while that he seems like the kind of guy whose second act is as an outstanding executive somewhere in baseball.

  26. Soeten, is it exciting for you that the site gets so much traffic that people post stupid links to hypothetical internet jobs or depressing that your readers are the kind of people who might click on them?

    • I clicked – and now I’M making $81/hr working from home.

      Don’t bash it until you’ve tried it!

      Ok I’m joking – don’t ban me.

  27. I can’t hear what you’re saying because I have two World Series rings plugged in my ears.

  28. Snider was never good. Lind was never good. Yeah Cit should never have “washed his hands with him” altho thats a bit misleading. All he did was let the kid try and figure it out on his own cause he couldnt handle being given advice. Yeah u should never give up on a kid but thats saying Cito did is an extreme. You guys were all idiots in believing that these 2 were the Jays future. I never once believed these 2 unathletic kids were the future. Not for a second. No pat on my back. But those 2 guys sucked.

    • Lol. Hindsight bias is hindsight bias. You must have a stiff neck from having your head so far up your ass. Lind is a pile of shit but saying he was never good, is beyond ridiculous. He hit at every level in the minor leagues and everyone knows he posted a monster 2009 season that goes without saying. Snider also hit at every level in the minor leagues at a well below average age for a prospect. He also clearly failed to transition to the major leagues, but saying he was never good is beyond horseshit.

    • That Silver Slugger Lind won must have been my imagination.

    • Didn’t Cito get Lind recalled when he took over in 2008?

      Lind was in Gibbons doghouse & was banished to the minors. Cito taught him to hit & he had a career 2009. Lind used to sit to Cito in the dugout in 2009.

      It’s been downhill since then for Lind.

  29. I hope you all read the article and not just the take on it here (not that I disagree with anything here). Two things that are clear beyond how much we should be glad that Cito is gone:

    1) Travis probably had his own issues that let him get so messed up by teammates joking and hitting coaches talking hitting. Bad as any teammates and coaches may have been, he probably should have been a little more open to the ups and downs of the big leagues. At the same time: fuck Cito.

    2) AA is the best thing that has happened to this club in a while.

    • And yet AA is seemingly the one who didn’t give Snider a real opportunity over the last two seasons in favour of players like Thames and Davis leaving the organization with absolutely nothing in LF going forward.

      • Well let’s read parts 2 and 3 before judging. Keep in mind there is talk of an offer the Jays made to Snider that he presumably declined.

        Though I agree I wish AA would have played him more either way.

      • +10

        That’s the mystery. I can understand Cito being tough with Snider in his first two years, but why did AA want to see what fred lewis could do in 2010??

        Fred Lewis was not a hot propsect or guy with a big future in the MLB?

        He played 81 games last year & 13 this year.

        It is completely baffling why AA who values high talent cheap controllable players wouldn’t give Snider 150 games to see what he can do.

        Rajai Davis is not a long term solution to LF

  30. The only thing that makes me immediately take Snider’s side, is that I read Shawn Green’s book. He basically went through the same thing with Cito and his then hitting coach if I remember correctly?

    • Meanwhile Green’s best season arguably was his last with the Jays, he didn’t really get much better after he left the jays at 26. To compare Snider to green is a bad example because Green played GG,SS caliber rf. While Snider played avg at best left.

      Can someone explain to me why fans gush over Snider, yet, are dead set that Gose is 4th outfielder, when at-least Gose could play CF, and he brings speed to the table. For fuck sake, Snider is hitting worse in extra base hits, with more appearances than Gose this year.

      People are dead set that Lind will never get better again, but at-least he showed more flashes as a DH/1b than Snider did in Left.

      • Has there been a rush to place a finished Gose as a fourth-outfielder? If there has, I haven’t seen it. Most people see his ceiling as an everyday guy, he just hasn’t gotten there yet.

      • LOL…how about 2001 and 2002 with the Dodgers? You obviously never read the book, because it is a perfect example. He writes how Cito wanted him to pull the ball and it fucked him up, etc.

  31. Read my new auto-biography called: “Pointing the Finger – Why it’s Everybody Else’s Fault That I Suck”.

    • Did you actually read the article? It sounds like he’s being candid about what he was going through. But I don’t get that he is blaming anyone any more than he is himself. There doesn’t have to be a side that you have to take in situations like this. There were no winners. And it got awkward. End of story.

      • Of course I read the article. A whiny mess of pathetic excuses, tangled up with immaturity. Aaaaaaaahhhh! Poor Travis! Mean Gene asked him right away about his grip! Aaaaaaaah! Poor Travis! Cito spoke to him before his at bats! Aaaaaaaaahhhh! Poor Travis! The players teased him about not hitting lefties. The only people who don’t see this as embarrassing for Snider either have an axe to grind or are just as immature themselves.

        Travis Snider in Pittsburgh. 246/.321/.331. OPS .651. OPS+ 83. Poor Travis. Nobody left to blame.

  32. What a shocker that Cito and his posse screwed this up, well not really. And save the world series bullshit. Any manager can win the world series if they have the talent

    • Not saying Cito is responsible for the Jays 2 WS wins alone but say high to Ron Washington for me.

      • you just proved my point. Washington was one Nelson Cruz catch away from winning the world series

        • One missed catch, one missed play, he still doesn’t have a title with all that talent. My point is that the intangibles play a part in things come the playoffs. That’s become even clearer in the Wild Card era.

  33. travis is a totally bust stop blaming people blame yourself

  34. After reading the Shi Davidi article, the only conclusion that I get is that Snider got called up way too soon. While he may have had the raw MLB talent, he didn’t have the maturity at the time.

    We all know that Cito preferred working with veterans and didn’t do particularly well with young talent.

    People have personality issues and part of growing up and becoming wise is learning to deal with personalities. Cito was the manager, and he managed (whether good or bad), and it’s Travis’ job to deal with that and to persevere despite it.

    And don’t get onto Travis about his numbers. He hurt his hamstring, early in September and had to sit out some games.

  35. Sounds like A LOT of the 20 year old kids I hire nowadays (Already fired 3 of the 4 from this year). Petulant little know-it-alls with a MASSIVE sense of entitlement. I’m sure Travis was always the best player on his team up until his MLB time. He was fawned over by teammates and always the apple of his coach’s eye. Then…. “OMG… veteran, BETTER players are making fun of me? Me? Travis “Wonderboy” Snider?”

    Sounds like he has had a major change of heart, after the reality of being traded for a BP arm set in, Hopefully it’s not too late for him to turn it around. But he might end up in Japan for a couple of years learning how to hit breaking balls and aftert that maybe return to MLB.

    • I wonder if Lawrie, Gose & Hech get the same treatment by the Jays now?

      In 2008, wasn’t everyone excited about Snider’s debut??

      JP Riccardi had noone else to hype in 2008 other than Snider. Hill was hurt & Lind was just starting out out..

      What baffles me is AA’s treatment of Snider.

      If Snider was on another team, AA would be targeting him as a prospect with high ceiling that was mishandled by his team.

      The mishandling of Snider is a black mark on the Jays.

  36. All of this reminds me of an article I read recently:

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8396297/is-new-york-knicks-shooting-guard-jr-smith-misguided-just-misunderstood

    The subject is JR Smith, a kid who had all the talent in the world and was thought to be a world beater and eventual all star. When he first got into the league, he met up with a hard ass coach set in his ways who had success before and they clashed and started a downward spiral (sound familiar?)

    The point isn’t to talk about coaching or whatnot, because no one blames Byron Scott for what happened to JR Smith, but it’s more to point out that this narrative happens ALL THE TIME in sports. When I heard that Sportsnet was doing 3 parts to this story, it really made me shake my head and realize how far the Jays have sunk when it comes to providing winning baseball.

    Travis Snider was/is a prospect where if you look back, maybe things were done wrong, but every professional team has many tales of ‘talent gone wrong’. Hell, I still have my Gregg Jeffries rookie cards, thinking I was going to retire off them. I just think that this article is searching for answers that aren’t there and to hold his up as an Exhibit A on “See?!?! CITO SUCKS!!!” is so simplistic and lazy. You can’t blame him for setting Snider on the wrong path and saying that Cito should still be responsible for what happened after he left, yet dismiss the success of Jose Bautista (someone who has repeatedly credited Cito with helping him out). It just feels like trolling and I get it. Invoking Cito’s name for all that’s wrong with the Jays gets people writing and responding.

    Besides, young players (or any players) not getting along with mangers is a tale that’s old as time. Ask Scott Rolen and Ozzie Smith about Tony LaRussa. Ask Gary Sheffield about Joe Torre. Ask Heath Bell and Bobby Jenks about Ozzie Guilen. I really don’t give a shit about who likes who and who’s to blame.

    I honestly hope Snider does well. By all accounts, he seems to be a decent fellow and he’s proven he can play in the majors. But I think it’s time to stop treating this like the Jays lost Roy Hobbs.

  37. “Recalled July 30, Snider returned to find himself in an awkward time-split of left field with Lewis. Both being left-handed hitters, there was no natural way to share the workload and Snider remembers he and Lewis sitting in Gaston’s office, “and he’s asking us, ‘What do you prefer, playing every other day, or two-on, two-off?’ And we’re looking at each other like, what do you say there? You’re the manager, you make the decision. In my mind, I feel like I earned this shot, obviously Fred feels like he earned that shot, and we’re both put into a difficult situation.”

    Gaston also found it challenging, pointing out the Blue Jays wanted to see what they had in Lewis, who was out of options at that point, as well as Snider. ”

    From the Shi Davidi article.

    Why did AA wan tto see what they had in Fred Lewis???

    What would make the Jays give a shot to Fred Lewis over TRAVIS SNIDER, the #1 prospect in the organization a that time.

    You can blame Cito for not dealing with the kid, who thought very highly of himself at age 20.

    However, in 2010 AA knew Cito was retiring, so he could have told Cito to play Snider more often.

    The fact that AA let Thames play over Snider shows that they didn’t care about finding about Snider in 2012.

    It seems to me that the contract offer was made before the season began, Snider turned it down, so AA played Thames.

    I don’t blame Snider for not accepting the offer, which made trading him the only logical choice for AA.

    I am pretty sure Snider will produce more WAR over the next 5 years than Brad Lincoln.

  38. When does the film production of “The Travis Snider Story” go into production? I don’t get this cult following of this guy. Fuck he is no more and no less a fringe MLB player. He’ll beout of baseball by the end of next year…just like hundreds of others that just arn’t good enough. I’m sure its painfull but please…

    • I doubt Snider will be out of baseball in 2013.

      The shocking news today is that AA offered him a long term contract & Snider said no.

      He must have done that because he was upset with how the Jays treated him.

      THE SCARY NEWS IS THAT aa INTERFERED WITH with Cito in 2010 & wanted to see a platoon of fred lewis & Travis Snider.

      That’s ridiculous. Top home grown prospect over journeyman who used twitter to bash the team in 2010

  39. Take that, Baltimore — We got you fuckers good! I

    Also, on a somewhat relevant note, Oakville I think you are wrong about Snider being worth more WAR over the next 5 years than Lincoln; I think Lincoln will actually be a very valuable asset in the pen next year. I have enjoyed watching both him and Delabar pitch.

    Also one more time, both of these fellas are gladly gone from the team, and while we should learn from the mistakes, it’s still too soon to keep talking about Snider. We broke up like 2 months ago.

    • snider vs Lincoln.

      If the Jays stay with the staus quo, i.e Davis or Gose, I don’t see how they can outperform Sinider in LF in 2013.

      Lincoln may be a good reliever, but he hasn’t be as good as Delabar since arriving with the Jays.

  40. I wonder if a manager exists who HASN’T screwed up a few prospects over the years because his style didn’t fit with the player’s. Assessing such a thing could be a bigger project than mapping the Human genome. Basically, take every prospect who was ‘hot’ at the age of 20 and find the bastard who ruined that prospect’s surefire career. Then we can expand outwards into all areas to discover why all the people who had high-A averages in Grade 12 aren’t running the world right now and what bad life managers screwed them up.

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  42. Get fucked

  43. You tell that bot!

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