I wish somebody else had this story, because I’m not seeing it anywhere else just yet, and I’m loath to link to Steve Simmons of the Toronto Sun, yet apparently I have no choice, as he’s got choice quotes from Omar Vizquel, who goes all Zaun Cherry and gives us more to ponder about the stewardship of John Farrell and his coaching staff, and whether or not their attitude with players is too lax.

“No doubt this is a good young ball club,” Vizquel said. “Obviously, they need some veteran leadership in here. I tried to do my best, a little helping here and there. But I think the coaching staff have a big responsibility to kind of get in there and tie things up a little, have a bit more communication with their players and try to make this thing happen the right way.

“Sometimes you have to punish players because they’re making the same mistakes over and over again,” he adds.

“Look, I think a lot of mistakes were let go because its young guys. You expect mistakes from young guys,” he continues. “It needs to be talked about. It shouldn’t just be let go and say, ‘Ah, we have another day.’ You have to get on it. You have to say, ‘I didn’t like that play’ and let’s try and do something different. You have to talk it over and over again and how do you call it, be on top of that.”

Now, there are a couple ways to look at this. That we’ve seen a lack of fundamentals in far too many instances than we can reasonably be comfortable with this this season is undeniable, and in that light Vizquel’s comments seem damning.

However, as I’ve said several times, I simply cannot believe that some of our perceptions of just how often and how bad this has been aren’t coloured by what a wretched season we’re just finally coming to the end of. It’s something that I’ve harped on a lot over the years– it’s only human, I think, to recollect negative, punch-in-the-face moments far more easily than benign ones, or even good ones, and a lot of times we don’t properly compensate for this effect. Rajai Davis, for example, has stolen bases at a much better clip–  77.5%– than seems believable based on observation as a passionate fan, I think.

What’s more, I can’t help but also wonder if Omar– who has openly stated his desire about managing in the big leagues as soon as next year– might not be constructing a bit of his own hagiography, casting himself as only able to help in this regard a small amount, when what we were sold is that it was very much his job to be the clubhouse veteran and to keep his fellow teammates playing the game the right way.

That’s not in any way to dismiss the possibility, or ask anybody to overlook the fact there could be serious problems with the way that Alex Anthopoulos, John Farrell and his staff  communicate to players– though “problems” may not even be the right word, as it may be entirely intentional for Farrell to not run the clubhouse like a drill sergeant when it has become so obvious that they’re just playing out the string– but to try to resist the urge to take the words at face value without giving it any thought.

That, I think, ought to be especially important when they’re the words of a player who is now so close to being on his way out the door– I mean, was he talking about this all season, or just conveniently right now?– and who has reason to paint himself in a particular light. A player who, as Simmons writes, “didn’t quite know where he fit in on the team. He didn’t know when he was going to play, in what situation, against what kind of pitching, or what position he was going to play. He found some of that difficult and confusing, again bringing into question the internal communications on the team.”

Or… y’know, maybe just the usefulness of carrying 45-year-old Omar Vizquel.

I don’t know. But as an as an aside… I know they’re Sun commenters, so I shouldn’t expect too much of them, but it will never cease to amaze me how people can just eat whatever shit they’re shoveled sometimes. The few comments I saw below the piece seemed to believe that Omar’s beyond reproach classiness was entirely self-evident, despite the fact that I have no idea how any fan could possibly have enough information to make such a judgment on his or her own. I just can’t help but wonder whether they’d be so quick to praise and to eat up these words had it been someone held in a lesser esteem.

Comments (143)

  1. “He didn’t know when he was going to play, in what situation, against what kind of pitching, or what position he was going to play.”

    Everyone else knew the answer to this question. He is a utility infielder on the bench. He plays as needed, where needed, against whatever pitcher is throwing that day. If he doesn’t know that, you’d have to question his intelligence.

    • Disagree. Even utility players have the reasonable expectation of knowing the circumstances of when they’ll play, whether it be once a week, day games following night games, against LHPs or in late-game defensive switches. You have to agree that Vizquel (and I’m no fan of his) has been williy-nilly through the season, used with no real rational plan.

      • That’s not a disagreement to what I said. He doesn’t get day games after night games, LHPs, or once a week because that weakens the offense. He’s not a defensive replacement because that weakens the defense. His role was clear. As needed and where needed. Like Mike McCoy only without the the flights to and from Las Vegas. To get any more specific with his role requires some level of clairvoyance from the manager.

      • He’s the 25th man on a 25 man roster.

        There is no plan for him. He’s there to be used when a body is needed.

  2. I tend to agree with this. Communication may or may not be an issue, but even if it is, it’s a much smaller problem than some of the obvious glaring problems that plagued this team in 2012 (injuries, pitching, etc.). People are looking to blame something that really isn’t there, and anyone who thinks that simply bringing in veterans is the solution, are sadly mistaken.

  3. Ah the wonderful time of year when reporters look back on the season and scramble to explain every fucking thing in as dramatic a fashion as possible.

    This is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

  4. Jeez, Manny Acta was just fired yesterday, Omar. Let the dust settle a bit before kicking off your campaign!

    • I was listening to MLB radio, and they were talking about the Indians needing some positive PR with their fans. They though giving Alomar the job, and bringing in Vizquel would do the trick.

  5. I’m not one bit naive that Vizquel may have his own motives for stating the Jays are mired in miscommunication, I think it’s dangerous to let the Jays organization off the hook at this point. Between the lack of communication (or poor support mechanisms in place for a young player) voiced through the Snider-Davidi commentary, the Escobar fiasco and now Vizquel, it is quite clear this is an organization in disarray, unable to establish clear expectations and responsibilities to its young player.

    I see this as damming praise for an organization that’s re-branded itself as a player development machine, one that is willing to beef up its player development ranks and scouts, yet cannot provide these very seedlings the instruction, reinforcement and communication mechanisms that will allow them to get (and stay) better. We’re setting that first hand this year with Lawrie’s continued base running mishaps.

    I’d be thrilled for the Jays to flip Farrell for anything from the BoSox; let’s build a better system for these young players under Butterfield (or Francona).

    • “(or Francona).”

      -1

    • “It is quite clear this is an organization in disarray, unable to establish clear expectations and responsibilities to its young player.”

      Is it? Really?

      • It’s quite clear that this is the kinda bullshit that comes up at the tail end of a lost season.

      • I’d say it’s clear – we have repeated instances of Lawrie running the base paths as if he’s Vince Coleman, same for Rajai. Snider’s commentary tells us that the Jays were not able to establish clear expectations and goals for their players, willy nilly sending mixed messages and trips between AAA and TO (in his case), Escobar’s eye black is just the idiotic outcome of a player that clearly can operate without professional parameters (seriously, we have professional parameters in EVERY workplace), and now we have Vizquel saying there’s poor communication channels and reinforcement mechanisms in a clubhouse full of youngsters.

    • It’s quite clear that making things up is awesome.

  6. Suprised at Visquel being so outspoken, would of thought out of everyone he would of kept his opinions “in house”.

    Pretty sure most of his observations were based on watching Brett Lawrie running the bases.

  7. It’s all well and good for the 45 year old to preach about what is needed in the clubhouse, but one of the takeaways I had from the Davidi Snider articles, was that the old -school gruff managerial style seems not to be working on the latest generation of ball players. It seemed to me, that Snider even acknowledged that his attitude was a problem, but perhaps it is deeper rooted in the youth of today.

    I want to trust that the manager and coaches AA has assembled have a good idea of what to do with these kids. The young players have more access to info, have advanced stats and all sorts of tools at their disposal to help them out. I am sure they know when the fuck up a play, and I am sure they beat themselves up about it more than they let on in public. Because everyone has self-doubts (in fact, usually the boastful are the most unsure of themselves.

    So I take this with a grain of salt. Times are different Omar. I don’t like it anymore than you do, but you work with what you’ve got.

    • Disagree. If they’re as displeased with themselves, why would they continue to exhibit the same poor play?

      • What I meant was, in hindsight, it seems that Snider was not please with the attitude he had with Gaston and Tenace.

      • Of course, I am generalizing. There are going to be players who respond to authority as there will be players who respond to being given some independence. I just find it hard to believe that there is a real problem in the Jays clubhouse.

    • Every generation of old-school gruffs in pretty much all parts of the world have thought that the new generation has attitude problems and aren’t willing to listen to their “old-school” approach. Generally, old-school gruffs forget that, when they were the new generation, they were looked at in the exact same way by their elders. Young people are immature and over confident. Old people are stubborn and set in their ways. It is how it will always be, forever.

  8. I don’t have time right now to write out anything lengthy. But I must let all of DJF nation know that I have no faith in farrell and would love to take whatever Boston is offering to send him away.

  9. +1.

    Why didn’t Omar tell Escobar to take the eye patch off?

    Why didn’t Omar tell lawrie’s to run based properly?

    Isn’t that Farrell or bitter fields job?

  10. Politicking for the Indians job. Nothing to see here.

    • meh.. that is all it is. Omar can go coach the POS Indian team and see what it is like to communicate with a bunch of fukstiks like they have over there. Good luck with that fucker Ubalso Jimenez

  11. “it will never cease to amaze me how people can just eat whatever shit they’re shoveled sometimes”

    you mean like when wilner says shit and a certain blogger blindly repeats it as fact?

    • Nice knowing you.

      • Stoeten, you blocked the guy for stating a POV about you and Wilner?

        A new low for the chubby hipster.

        • He’s done it a few times.Mostly since the move.

          • Hey look, is that RADAR talking as though he knows things he can’t possibly know? OF FUCKING COURSE IT IS.

            Again.

          • I can’t possibly know what Stoeten?
            That you’ve banned more people since the move to the Score.
            Yeah and nobody else noticed either.
            Jeez get a grip.
            It wasn’t a criticism just an observation.

        • Low, Frank? Maybe for a couple hours ago. But apparently I keep reaching new depths, because I just turfed your dickless ass too.

          Here’s the thing: in his post-blocking comments (which I can see, but no one else can) he bitched that I had blocked him “again.” You see, I caught immediately that he was speaking in DJF troll code, and the fact that he’s been blocked before would seem to validate that notion.

          Aww, and then you went and hit on it too. So sad for you.

  12. ” I tried to do my best, a little helping here and there” ….Well isn’t that nice Omar

    Zaun Cherry….I love that!

  13. I learned a new word today: hagiography. Thanks, Stoeten.

  14. It just dawned on me that with the NHL lockout we are likely to see more Jays-related stories this off-season from the likes of Simmons and Cox. Crap.

  15. “He wants to see what J.P. Arencibia can do with a full season behind the plate”
    Don’t we all?
    wait, actually no.

  16. Oh lord.

    The meme about “mistakes” is getting so tired. Maybe we make 10% more than most teams. And maybe we’re 10% younger. I don’t know.

    I do know that when you make a mistake, you know it right away. Why do people assume you can play all your life and make a mistake and then because someone points it out, you’ll now magically not make another mistake? Maybe we should admonish guys against being struck out by Verlander so they stop doing it?

    Hopefully the team is a little more set/defined going into spring training and they work extra hard on fundamentals and stuff like that. What else do you want?

    • When I see all the mistakes being committed, whether at the plate, on base or in the field, it reminds me of the Tampa teams in the early days. I keep holding out hope that over time the coaching staff will drill the fundamentals into the players heads. If that happens, we could be looking at a competitive team for a number of years to come a al Tampa.

  17. Stoeten,

    I am an avid follower of this blog and your posts. As you probably recognize, I have never posted, until now. I just have a question for you… what do you think the problem is with the Jays, exactly? Look, I know you have mentioned certain things (injuries), but it seems that your focus on being so even-keeled, level-headed, and balanced has slightly precluded you from expressing a strong opinion. I don’t mean that as an insult, and perhaps you think I’m full of shit. But please man, I just want to know, if it’s not Farrell / AA, a lack of leadership, what Zaun says, what is it?? It can’t just be injuries. You post something like what’s above, and you just say “some of it could be true, but most likely it’s not really accurate,” which you seem to say a lot. Seriously, I’m dying to know what (besides the injuries) is holding the Jays back??

    Thanks.

    • Can you also tell me what to think as well Stoeten?

      • Douchey comment. The guy clearly had an interest in hearing the opinion of someone whose writing he reads and likely respects, which is not uncommon. Do you just read the articles for the curse-words, Brainojack?

    • I think you’re right that I don’t have a strong opinion on what the problem is, but that’s because I don’t think there is a “the problem,” except that they don’t quite have enough talent. The other stuff can make changes on the margins, which doesn’t become so important until a club that has a real shot and a razor thin margin for error– which is what I think the Jays will be in the coming years, and could have been this year without the injuries (had they got something approaching the good fortune of random variance that the Orioles have been gifted in all those one run and extra innings wins). Because of that, I would never say that we should just look past all of it and not care, but the problem here is lack of talent, followed by the key injuries, followed by the division and schedule, and in my view everything else is way down below.

      • How certain are we that runs are subject to random variance such that a run differential is more telling of underlying on-field performance and a win total is subject to luck?

        Doesn’t this assume that every single inning and every single run for and against are of equal value? This would be the case if the objective was to maximize run-differential, but not if the objective is wins and hence innings which may be conceded or faught harder depending on circumstance, no?

        What do I know, I’m just a Moises Sierra fan who cares only for taters and creative base running.

        • I said nothing about run differential.

          • Good fortune of random variance that the Orioles have been gifted…

            Doesn’t that imply that you subscribe to the theory that timing of runs is random and total amount of runs vs runs against is more telling of fundamentals?

          • Moises Sierra, no, it does not.

            I subscribe to the theory that the Orioles are not nearly as talented as their record suggests, and that they possess little in the way of special skill that could explain their ridiculous record in one run and extra inning games. Yes, they have a strong bullpen, and certainly that helps somewhat, but it doesn’t nearly account for it all. They’ve been very successful in those situations mostly because… shit happens. Random variance. Occasionally you’re going to run into a lot of luck like that, but it’s not something that’s real– compare the one run game records of last year’s Diamondbacks and this years’ for example. It’s basically the same club, it’s just the performances didn’t happen to line up this season the way they did now. It’s not that some special skill was lost, it’s that shit happens, and with a decent foundation, shit like that can happen to anyone.

            That said, I DO think run differential shows us quite compellingly that the Orioles’ record is not likely very indicative of their true talent, but that’s not what I was talking about at all.

      • I’d agree with your summation that “the problem here is lack of talent, followed by the key injuries, followed by the division and schedule, and in my view everything else is way down below.”.

        However, I do question this piece:

        “The other stuff can make changes on the margins, which doesn’t become so important until a club that has a real shot and a razor thin margin for error– which is what I think the Jays will be in the coming years, and could have been this year without the injuries”

        The thing that “gets” me about this is this is the one thing that’s seemingly completely within the control of the people making on-field decisions (managers/players). The other stuff – talent level, competition, injuries is stuff completely out of their control. Why not take a hold of the one thing the people playing the game CAN control.

        I’d also say that all of a sudden turning into a well disciplined team isn’t as easy as saying “well, we’re good now… better start playing disciplined”. Athletes are creatures of habit, and learn through repetition. When something is happening on the field, you want players *doing* not *thinking about what they should be doing*. The only way for this to become ingrained in their mind is to work at the margins properly time and time again. You can change the mindset, but it takes time.

        Why not start now, especially with core players?

        • I would suggest to you Alisauce, that once these young players get older, not only will they be more talented, but they will be less prone to mistakes. So, experience is going to be a big boon to this club.

        • You’re assuming they’re not, for one, when the mistakes we’re all talking about are hardly any worse than other teams make, when viewed a step back from the negativity that magnifies everything that has gone wrong and insists on pointing fingers somewhere. And even if you disagree, or somehow think that there’s a problem with the club’s approach to fundamentals overall, even though that would be an extremely hard position to back up (the examples of problems are scarce relative to everything asked of these players), it’s also important to realize that there are disadvantages to acting like a drill sergeant for 162 games, especially in a lost season.

      • @ Stoeten’s ‘the problem’ post.

        That’s the best thing I’ve heard you say for a while.

      • + ten million

        We waste way too much time on this type of stuff when the bottom line is this: spend some money on better players!!!

        When they do that, they will win consistently and all is forgiven.

      • Thanks a lot; that makes a lot of sense. Appreciate the reply.

    • You can’t dismiss injuries when we have had 80% of the rotation injured and been down to 1 opening day batter in the lineup.

      Losses make everything look bad. Wins make everything look ok.

      We’re losing because of injuries and because we aren’t THAT good yet. Not because Lawrie ran himself out or because our 9th backup OF of the season lost a flyball.

      • injuries is some of why the jays lose a lot

        some of it is talent, lawrie, jpa, lind, rasmus, johnson, davis, escobar all had underwhelming years.

    • “As you probably recognize, I have never posted, until now.”

      How would anyone recognize this?

  18. “The few comments I saw below the piece seemed to believe that Omar’s beyond reproach classiness was entirely self-evident, despite the fact that I have no idea how any fan could possibly have enough information to make such a judgment on his or her own.

    I don’t know that it’s as much “self-evident” as it is crammed down our fucking throats by all the media types in this town. Just listening to Martinez and Tabler fawn over the decrepit Vizquel during a broadcast is enough to gag a maggot. So much for the veteran leadership and making sure guys play the game the right way line of horseshit.

    By the way (pedantic douchebag alert), loathe (used with an object) = to hate or abhor whereas loath = reluctant as in I loathe Steve Simmons and so I’m loath to link to his Flesch-Kincaid grade 4 level literary effluent.

  19. That shit cray, ain’t it Jay?

  20. HOLY SHIT DID YOU GUYS SEE SNIDER MAKE THAT CATCH!? WE GOT ROBBED!…

    …hahahaha just kidding fuckers.

    I personally find there is a fairly massive problem with ego in the youth of today. I know, I know I sound like the preachy old fart, but I’m only 32, I promise. Entitlement is in abundance everywhere you look, so why wouldn’t it be present in the locker room? I don’t necessarily think Farrell has done a proper job of managing this club, but I also don’t think he had an easy task; AA has done a good job of bringing in athletic talent that has been cast off by other teams, but some of these guys are straight fucking head cases. i.e Rasmus, Escobar, Arencibia, Lawrie, Romero. I like all of those guys, with the exception of Escobar, but can we get a little fucking mental fortitude here? And that’s not including the fact that Bautista has had his moments this year, with his attitude towards calls, and Kelly Johnson looking mighty apathetic as he strikes out for the 3rd time every night. Then there is Lind.

    It’s a mixed bag of weirdos. I think Encarnacion is the most normal person in the lineup, and yea, I don’t know shit about what happens behind closed doors.

    I think a few changes need to be addresses, a big one being shipping out Escobar and Kelly Johnson to repair the middle infield, and finding a first baseman. I’m fine with the outfield, Gose has actually impressed me, and I think another year will do a great deal for him.

    • I think the changing attitudes and feelings of entitlement of young players is an interesting topic, but you’ve really gone and given character traits to some of these players that you can’t possibly know, so I can’t really take the other stuff seriously.

      • Yep, and I know I’m making fairly broad assumptions, as I can only make judgement based on the very little I see in interviews, and I can only guess at how much of that is just double speak and standard interview rhetoric. I do understand that I genuinely don’t know these guys, but for the purpose of commenting on an opinion blog, I’ll hazard looking the fool for the purpose of discourse.

    • Well when you acquire choice talent for pennies on the dollar due to perceived attitude issues does it really suprise people or is it unfair to suggest that maybe.. They have attitude problems?

      I’m merely asking the question.

      • You could say that, but people are adaptable; where a player might flounder in a certain environment, he might thrive in another. Is it worth the risk? Well, that depends on how much you are paying them, and how much rope you are willing to give them. Myself, I wouldn’t have given Escobar as much as he has had, especially considering recent events. Hindsight is 20/20 though. I just have a bad feeling about the guy, and although he hasn’t been dreadful, he hasn’t been great. Rasmus has been so good this season at times, but he has to understand he can’t disappear for 3/4 of the season and hit .220 when it’s evident he has the ability to do more.

        I’m just some guy though.

  21. Omar was there for veteran leadership and nothing more. He knows this as well as we do. Now he’s complaining about a lack of veteran leadership. He was especially supposed to be a fatherly figure for our Spanish-speaking players but stands quietly and watches Yunel shit the bed. The failure here is with Omar. Blaming the coaches is inexcusable. Hopefully he’s done damage to his quest to manage in MLB. I think in the long run it would have been easier to teach Mike McKoy Spanish.

  22. It seems like it wasn’t that long ago that players were praising AA for his communication with them. Wasn’t it Vernon Wells that sent him a watch after the trade?

    And all the Boston players talking positively about John Farrel’s approach after he left.

    Since it’s been a bad season everyone thinks they have to start up the shit storm?

    • In the Photoshop post yesterday there was an old one of John Farrell as Darth Vader, which I did back when the Red Sox imploded last year, and there was a lot of talk that the intimidating Farrell wouldn’t have allowed the kind of fried chicken and beer shit to happen on his watch.

      That’s as much narrative as this is, but that it can be so divergent from one year to the next tells me all I need to know about how seriously to take this shit.

  23. Send Farrell to Boston and get a real baseball manager in here… (Please not another former Boston guy)

    If Visquel had any influence on Hech, then it was worth him being here this year

    Nice career Omar – shame you are a little short for the HOF..

  24. Entitlement is a tired meme, isn’t it? I’m a youthworker, and the only ones who feel entitled are those who are taught to feel that way, and they usually have white collar parents. So can we separate ALL YOUTH from twenty-five-year-olds making hundreds of thousands a year please?

    And why would you classify the Jays as a bunch of weirdos? Based on what? If they were winning, we’d think they were a pretty fun bunch. As Stoeten repeatedly says, and he’s right about this, don’t let a fucked up season turn you into a Sun commenter.

    “There’s fungus on your shower shoes… If you win twenty in the Show, you can let the fungus grow back on your shower shoes and the press will think you’re colourful. Until you twenty, however, it means you’re a slob.”

    • I would say the issue of entitlement goes much further than white-collar parents. Perhaps that was the case in the 60′s. Now, I think it’s a whole paradigm shift wherein people think they can get by just by having natural talent. It’s not enough. I relate it to the slew of young women out there who think they can just get by being beautiful. Well, there is a plethora of beautiful, useless women out there now, and eventually they realize just being told they were gorgeous their whole life isn’t adequate — in fact it isn’t even unique.

      Again, I generalize.

      • “Paradigm Shift” – Check
        Misogyny – Check
        Terrible, terrible puns – Check

        • It’s hardly misogyny to question the validity of the duckface generation; no one is gonna hire you because you know how to take a great picture of yourself in the mirror with the camera on your phone. I spend a good portion of my time with women who are both beautiful AND talented, it just wasn’t relevant to my point.

          And yes, I tried to avoid paradigm shift as I fucking hate it, but I am glad it rankled your dismissive hipster complex.

    • I had a series of interns in my company and I can tell you, entitlement has nothing to do with background. I had kids from Regent Park who sat on their asses waiting for me to give them a clue, and others from there who were eager and ready to work. Same for kids from North Toronto. You don’t have to have anything to feel the world owes you something, and jsut cause you have it all, it doesn’t mean you assume it will always be that way.

      • SB:

        You don’t have to have nothing to feel the world owes you something, and just cause you have it all, it doesn’t mean you assume it will always be that way.

  25. why the fuck do we have to keep pretending that the manager is untouchable. Managers are fungable, you can replace them like gardners. They are not some glorious leader that will march the troops into battle. If you’ve made the wrong decision then cut your losses now.

    Farrell will finish the season as the 7th longest tenured jays manager. Only roy hartsfield managed more games with a worse record. That should tell you something. There are lots of good candidates still out there like alomar martinez etc. Alex has already interviewed them all so it shouldn’t be that hard to replace him.

    • That’s great, now all we need is the evidence that the wrong decision was made and your plan is golden.

      • And all we need is evidence that the right decision was made to keep him.

        try win/loss record, try 1 run games but hey winning doesn’t really matter so fuck it, farrell has a nice chin. good enough for me.

        • Oh, and here I thought you might actually have had a clue what you’re talking about.

        • 1 run games?!!?? Seriously? You come in and quote one run games as a reason to fire a manager.

          Even if the one run game was in the manager’s control, do you actually have stats to back up the claim that the Jays under Farrell have had a negative record in them (by which I mean relative to their overall record under him)?

  26. By the way, props to everyone commenting here. It’s the only comment section I’ll ever read because you guys (generic, inclusive term) do a great job generally self-policing this section. I don’t agree with everyone, obviously, but a goodly portion of the comments are thoughtful or funny or both.

    • I am surprised on a daily basis that the average Jays’ fan can formulate some of the thoughts I read here.

    • @ S

      Yup.
      Additionally,there’s a wide variety of expertise here ,from saber geeks to old school, young ,old,newbies to the sport and grizzled old men stuck in their ways ( ahem Stoeten fuck off pointing your finger this way),guys who never played to guys who played in the minors.An amazing amount of info along with what Stoeten provides.
      Hell, I even seen a trade annouced here, from a supposed insider, 36 hours before it happened.

  27. I wonder if being a young team is really an excuse for all of the dumb mistakes being made out there. These guys have all been playing baseball for decades as amateurs and minor leaguers so shouldn’t they know by now how to play the game properly?

    I’m leaning towards the opinion that the management SHOULD lean on players who repeat the same mistakes, particularly out in the field or on the basepaths, even if they’re young. Snider’s interview shows how stuck up and stand-offish young ballplayers can be. Maybe you have to be tough on them.

  28. I refuse to give Steve Simmons a page view or a click or whatever they measure his internet-reading-worthiness in.

    Douchebag of all douchebags…

  29. I can see that everyone’s gone full retard here on the ‘John Farrell is terrible express.’ As far as I can tell there are two possible explanations for this clusterfuck of a season;

    1) John Farrell has fostered a thunderdome-style clubhouse culture and we’re just lucky that Brett Lawrie hasn’t attacked all of his teammates like Johnny Lewis yet.

    2) Management took an overachieving .500 team from last year and invested a grand total of, um, nothing in improving it. Then, when that team was again overachieving they had their guts ripped out with injuries to, in order, their closer, ace, third best starter, # five starter, seventh inning reliever, best hitter, leadoff hitter and catcher. As a result, heart & hustle turned into ‘who gives a shit we’re gonna lose anyway because we have 5 batters with an OBP under .300′ (not quite as catchy, granted). If this is the case then the ghost of fucking Earl Weaver couldn’t have ‘managed this team up’ to .500, let along playoff contention.

    Holy shit, Earl Weaver’s still alive? Get Farrell the fuck outta here and lets manage these boys up!

    • +1 for #2

    • Ray

      “1) John Farrell has fostered a thunderdome-style clubhouse culture and we’re just lucky that Brett Lawrie hasn’t attacked all of his teammates like Johnny Lewis yet.”

      That made me lol for real. Brett Lawrie on a drug bender god forbid.

      I for one think Farrell is getting hit unfairly here. I’m not saying the coaching staff is perfect, far from it, but I think that the young guys who played this year were ill prepared long before they got to Toronto. Let’s face it, fundamentals are fundamentals. 3 or 4 years in the minor leagues aren’t enough to instill the basics in these guys when that’s all they do?

      Base running, bunting, fielding, proper eye wear, those aren’t all that different at the major league level than the minors beyond small adjustments for a new team compared to the skill level of the competition they’re facing and having to constantly adjust to.

      Who is getting the flack for sending these guys up to the majors in that state? Who is evaluating them and saying they are ready?

  30. where there’s smoke there’s fire. doesn’t it make you wonder, after what we’ve seen this year (lack of fundamentals, same bullshit retarded mistakes over and over from the same guys with no consequences), and Zauner coming out (who fucking used to be part of the clubhouse) and now someone from within the clubhouse who has been in baseball for > 20 years saying the same things? FFS Stoet quit knobling Farrell and admit that he has some room to grow here. Maybe do some more thought along those lines rather than attack the people who are a lot closer to the situation than you are (well, i’m sure you could do both!)?? What’s it going to take for you to accept the possibility that Farrell needs to teach a bit of discipline on the team? Farrelll’s admission after AA says it at the presser where he announces Farrell has been shit canned?

    • It’s like Davidi’s answer on Tim and Sid this afternoon.( paraphrased)
      Q.After interviewing Snider, if you had to pick one person who’s most at fault in the Snider episode,who would it be?
      A. Snider

      • Kids these days. Back in my day we were served shit and we liked it. we walked 20 miles to school, and back uphill both ways.

        seriously though, it does seem like some younger guys are a bit more entitled, spoiled and selfish these days.

      • It’s not like that at all.

    • One, maybe read what I wrote before you embarrass yourself further.

      Two, Zaun’s last season there was 2008, and he’s a fucking attention-seeking blowhard, and Omar’s experience doesn’t mean his statements weren’t grotesquely self-serving.

      I’d be happy to shit on Farrell if there was more to go on, and the entire intention of the post was to say “maybe there’s something here, but it’s really easy to pick on these sorts of issues in a season like this, and Omar’s statements so obviously pass the buck for a job HE was supposed to do, and are so obviously politicking for a managerial gig elsewhere, that intelligent observers can’t possibly take them as seriously as people– like yourself itself, it seems– inevitably will.”

      Add in the fact that, as I said in a previous comments, it was just a year ago that we were hearing things about how Boston’s clubhouse problems would have never happened under Farrell’s watch, and you see just how ridiculous and how narrative-driven, not fact-driven, all of this stuff is. Give me more or it’s bullshit.

      • Whether it’s backed up by the stats, reality, etc, I don’t like Farrell at all so when I read about Vizquel’s comments I feel it backs up my perception. If I was a supporter, or even balanced, I would think there is less to it.

        That’s my self-analysis, anyway.

      • I’d be happy to shit on Farrell if there was more to go on, and the entire intention of the post was to say “maybe there’s something here, but it’s really easy to pick on these sorts of issues in a season like this, and Omar’s statements so obviously pass the buck for a job HE was supposed to do, and are so obviously politicking for a managerial gig elsewhere, that intelligent observers can’t possibly take them as seriously as people– like yourself itself, it seems– inevitably will.”

        So, your logic is that the Jays had a really bad year and it was Omar’s job to maintain discipline in the clubhouse so therefore Farrell is totally beyond reproach and we can’t explore the possibility that he didn’t do a good job in this area this year? That doesn’t make any sense.

        You can certainly question Zaun’s and Vizquel’s motives, and how much credibility they have, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t true. You also can’t throw out the lack of fundamentals and repeated bone head mistakes by some players either. There isn’t enough here to say with certainty that Farrell is a bad manager, but I think it is something worth exploring/keeping in mind going forward….

  31. I was never a fan of Vizquel on this team. Why? Because he’s FORTY FUCKING FIVE and offers no daily value to the team. If he was the great leader everyone said he was, then how the FUCK did YE get out of that clubhouse with a racial slur on his eye black? His comments can be taken with a grain of salt as far as I am concerned. He’s been a liability to this roster since day one. Clearly he isn;t the “leader” he was asked to be. Could he have helped Hech and Gose and some of the other younger players, sure… but in light of what he’s suggesting, then it appears to me he’s part of the problem, not part of the solution.

    I think he’s jockeying for a coaching job and trying to spout “leadership” type comments to add to his portfolio. How hard would it have been for Omar to maybe pull YE aside and correct him. Or talk to Lawrie about his baserunning blunders?

    If he’s complaining about a lack of veteran leadership then he’s essentially incriminating himself! At least, that’s how I see it.

    Quite honestly, I think this team has shit the bed since Bautista left. Is it just me?

    • yeah, I don’t think Vizquel offered value either. I’d have rather seen McCoy on a regular basis. at least he wouldn’t need a cane to round the bases.

      • Mike McCoy is just as useless.

        • yeah, but we wouldn’t have had to pay much extra for him. it would have been a reward for his years of service for us in the minors. He can hit as well as Vizquel, play most defensive positions and can also pinch run. Vizquel has nothing on McCoy.

      • Just sayin, Valbuena has a .320 OBP right now. Not that he’s any good either, but when the bar is Vizquel/McCoy, yeah…

    • That damn gay race eh? It was a homophobic slur, not a racial one.

  32. Well, that’s what I thought they got Omar Vizquel for in the first freakin’ place. He was supposed to be a mentor on the bench for the young players…especially the Latino ones. Lead by example, I thought.

    • Omar was interviewed a few times during spring training, singing the praises of Hech and not Yunel. I don’t recall his exact words, but the gist of it was Yunel will never be the player Hech is going to be, and Hech should be the SS going north with the team. Maybe he did see the slur on Yunel’s face.

  33. “Sometimes you have to punish players because they’re making the same mistakes over and over again,” he adds.

    *cough* Brett Lawrie *cough* Moises Sierra *cough*

  34. My buddy snapped this during the Marlins series when Vizquel was (rightfully) on the bench, mentoring or teaching the youngins the ways of major league baseball…

    … oh no wait, he was drawing tits and vag on a baseball…

    http://imgur.com/Fz7ev

    Fuck off, Vizquel; your time with the Jays can’t end soon enough. There’s never been a player who’s been as useless as you on this squad…

    –d

    • I remark that. Last straw for me was when Vizquel tried to validate Escobar’s slur. Time for that attention seeking corpse to vacate.

  35. Zaun is now on Twitter citing Vizquel’s service time as compared to that of the coaching staff’s combined service time as a reason why it’s appalling that Vizquel had to apologize. Absolutely hilarious. We determine who’s right by the figuring out who has the biggest MLB pension. What a neanderthal.

  36. Besides the obvious pandering for a managemrnt job in MLB by Vizquel, I think it suggests that some kind of change in players will be forthcoming.
    Myself, I w/n be surprised if Rasmus is dealt in conjunction with others to get a SP, as I do not see how we can extend a guy who plays well for 6weeks out of 24 and plays pepper with the 2B the rest of the time-can’t they teach the fucker to hit to the opposite field??
    Depending on how it goes on the pitching front, I think they would like to move Romero as well b4 it turns into a VW type situation.
    Others like Omar, KJ and Frasor will be given a bag of fruit to help them go somewhere else. Do hope they resign LYon, however.

  37. Wow this season just keeps getting worse and worse. Horrible results aside, I think the PR disasters have been the real killer for this franchise and stand to hamper them going forward into the winter.

    Personally, I don’t subscribe to all the excuses about poor clubhouse chemistry or the coaching all of a sudden being the primary cause for the results this season. I’m not saying those areas are perfect but come on. There wasn’t a whiff of all this shit before the injuries hit. I think it’s inexcusable for Vizquel to open his mouth at any point during the season. Especially against a team that carried his sorry, miserable, ass when it should have gone with one of their youngsters.

    I do agree that Vizquel’s statements were for himself and nobody else. There was no benefit to the team or players he was supposedly looking out for by going public.

    That said, if I was a GM, someone pulling a douche move like that would be the last person I would ever interview for a manager or coaching position. As a veteran or mentor loyalty isn’t one of those characteristics you can take lightly imo. I could never contemplate hiring someone that’s shown he’s not a team player.

    By further tarnishing the Jays clubhouse all he did was make it that much harder for the Jays to attract talent this winter. As I have said a few times now, there’s going to be plenty of money flying around this winter even if the Yankees and Sox continue to cut back. When the money is equal these guys are going to go a winner first and a team that doesn’t have the appearance of a clubhouse in disarray.

    If it didn’t make the team look worse, I would have cut his lame ass immediately.

  38. Vizquel was way the fuck out of line with these comments. Maybe he didn’t stop Yunel because he is as stupid as Yunel is.

  39. I can see Omar coaching the Indians next season

  40. Why are people mad? because he said it in the media or because he didnt say it behind closed doors? Which i think he should have if its an actual problem. But i do think he has a point and that maybe there is a lack of accountability on the team. Just because it didnt work with Snider or when Rasmus was on St Louis doesnt mean its bad. Just means those guys are bitch made. Plain and simple. Handle them differently. But maybe they used that method amongst all the players. *shrugs* we all are just speculating…the difference is most of yall seem butt hurt for some reason like Omar viciously attacked a family member of yours lol

  41. Look at Rajai Davis. Sure he’s stole a lot. But he makes repetive dumb base running and fielding plays.

    Lawrie too at the beggining of the season. Why they happened over and over could be what Omar is getting at.

    As much as we analyse things from the outside, we really don’t know what goes on behind closed doors.

  42. I love looking through an article that will make people think. Also, thanks for allowing for me to comment!

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