Is the insufferable saga of the courting of John Farrell by the Boston Red Sox finally nearing its conclusion? It sure as shit is starting to feel like it, as reports now indicate that the talks are moving well forward, and it’s getting harder and harder to see how the Jays could, at this point, pull back and continue on with Farrell, who they’re very obviously not insistent on keeping, as their manager.

As has been the case lately, it’s Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe who appears to have been first to stick his neck out:

In the Toronto Sun, Bob Elliott writes about Cafardo’s report, explaining that “we believe, as the Boston Globe’s Nick Cafardo wrote, that the teams are ‘beyond preliminary stage of compensation talks for Farrell’ since the two teams have been talking for a week,” however, “we do not believe that talks “have reached the ownership stage” as we’ve seen reported.”

And Shi Davidi of Sportsnet insists that a resolution must come very soon here, and offers a few other very interesting details. He suggests that something may really be happening here, as indicated by the fact that “the fate of the Blue Jays’ coaching staff, which was supposedly being finalized two weeks ago, remains unsettled.”

He goes on to add that “there are hints that should Farrell leave, first base coach Torey Lovullo, third base coach Brian Butterfield and coach Luis Rivera would follow him out.”

Now… it entirely makes sense that Farrell would want to take some of his own coaching staff with him, but I’m rather surprised at the suggestion of Rivera and Butterfield, who both preceded Farrell as members of the organization, and not Don Wakamatsu, who Farrell essentially brought with him as bench coach.

If it’s true that any of those guys were leaving with him, it would eliminate several potential replacements for Farrell from our theoretical list– and decimate the club’s coaching staff in a way that they’d have to receive better compensation for, which one could envision as yet another stumbling block. But maybe that makes someone from outside the organization, who can bring in guys of his own from elsewhere, a better fit. Guys like Manny Acta,  who Anthopoulos perhaps has a connection with from his Montreal days; Sandy Alomar Jr., whose brother Robbie is already in the organization and, y’know, beloved; DeMarlo Hale, who was also reportedly one of the finalists last time; as well as New Hampshire’s Sal Fasano.

Speaking of compensation, Peter Abraham of the Boston Globe has some theories, suggesting that “the compensation for Farrell will be a pitcher on the cusp of being helpful to the big league team and a Double A prospect. The Red Sox will get a non-prospect in return to make it a real trade.”

He throws out several names, none of which will please the “Pedroia or bust” crowd, or even those who think that the Jays have to “at least” get Dan Bard, but that seem reasonably realistic: Chris Carpenter (the bad one), Clay Mortensen, Alex Wilson or Zach Stewart on the big league side, and Juan Carlos Linares, Kolbrin Vitek, Ivan DeJesus Jr., or Che-Hsuan Lin as prospects.

Not exactly what you were hoping for, huh? Me either, but the fact of the matter seems to be that if the Jays are entertaining this, and very obviously not going to the same lengths they did last year to keep the fact that they’re participating in talks under wraps, it strongly suggests that they really may be ready to part with their manager.

And… whatever the compensation, if that’s how they feel, there’s not a whole lot of sense letting it go on as it stands. Frankly, as I said on today’s podcast, I’m really looking forward to seeing someone else handle the day-to-day tactical operation of this ballclub.

Comments (145)

  1. Jeez, haven’t you heard? We’re getting Paul Molitor to manage the Jays. Because he has… baseball IQ, and stuff.
    http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=407691

    • Scott Ferguson is still around? The same guy who did JaysTalk pre-Wilner?

      And there would be come irony in turning Farrell into the compensation for Rasmus, no?

    • One must remember that Baseball IQ is usually an inflated stat in all non-MENSA leagues.

    • Molitor’s name was thrown around years ago as a potentially manager in both Toronto and Minnesota… maybe around the first time Cito was fired? He’s one of those former players that could play the role well.

      Side note: wouldn’t you love to see Albert Belle manage a team?

    • “Molitor hasn’t managed, but neither had the Cardinals Mike Matheny, and he’s just one win away from going to the World Series in his first season.”

      What insight!

  2. It’s going to Stewart and Vitek.

    • Errr, “be”. That’s my feeling. Jays liked Vitek in the draft in 2010, though he’s been bad ever since. And they know Stewart at least, so maybe they want to give him another shot as a reliever.

    • Vitek is 24 next year, and has half a season of uninspiring baseball above A-ball. Plus he plays a position I think the Jays have covered, 3B (got Lawrie, and potentially Yunel and Jose).

      None of those players that Peter Abraham mentions I would want. They are all garbage prospects, and very fringe MLB starters. Especially if Butter, Rivera, and Luvollo follow, I would want a lot more than that.

      I am not in the unrealistic group that wants Pedroia or Ellsbury or Bucholz. Even Xander Bogaerts and Rubby De La Rosa are probably unrealistic. Bard too is probably not going to happen, but he is the ultimate target.

      But there has to be something in-between the two extremes. You don’t need a fortune, but we shouldn’t be getting scraps either. Hell, if that is the best Boston has to offer, I’d prefer to just say “fuck you Boston” and fire Farrell after they hire someone new.

      • Bogaerts might be dreaming, but olmstead, brentz, or bard might be reasonable – PLUS one of the shitbags abraham mentions.

        this might be the next TLR we’re giving up here – he could go on to manage boston for another 20 years! jeez. is it too much to ask for them to mortgage their future on a manager?

        • Last paragraph have sarcasm in it?

          Or do you really expect them to mortgage their future? And you really think he is the next LaRussa? And if so, good ridings, we don’t need someone who is going to over manage so much!

      • I didn’t say either of those guys were good. Was just making a prediction.

  3. I hope this isn’t a long tease like the month that Darvish was coming to Toronto.

    Deal Farrell for something, let’s get a manager who can actually manage and then AA can concentrate on getting the talent in here needed to win.

  4. Losing coaches with Farrell tips the scales for me. Compensation looks less than ‘offer can’t refuse’. This version looks like a bit of a wet diaper.

  5. if that’s the return the jays should just wait till the redsox hire someone and then fire farrell. then aa comes out and says: this is what double dealing gets you in toronto: we’re good to our people, but it seems clear now that farrell was never one of them. the end.

  6. If they are close to a deal, my guess is that it won’t be until at least tomorrow that it is announced.. It is unlikely that they’d announce something like that on a day that an NLCS game is to be played. Tomorrow is an off-day, so fingers crossed!

  7. Having spent a very non-productive morning thinking about all of this it occurs to me that AA is not a fool. I doubt it’s a surprise to him. I think it’s entirely possible that he has intended to jettison Farrell for a while and may well have kept him out of some front office situations in order not to allow too much insider knowledge of the club to go to Boston. If Farrell is dealt, I believe it will be because AA did not have confidence in his managerial skills and didn’t want to keep him. The issue of the injuries may well have come up in AA’s chats with Beeston. That many injuries all at once suggests something going on at the coaching/conditioning level that has had a bad effect. I also believe–and I hope I’m right–that AA may well have Farrell’s successor already in the bag and will name him almost immediately after Farrell is gone.

    Which? I think Farrell has to be gone. This has all gone too far without any comment for it to be pulled back now. They did realize belatedly what a complete cock-up they had made about Darvish, which was why there was a piece in the Post just before the deal went down saying that Toronto probably was not where Darvish was gonna land. There hasn’t been anything in the Post or anywhere else about this beyond a lot of sportswriters twiddling their computers waiting for some real news.

    • AA does look like a bit of a fool though in the sense he conducted an exhaustive managerial search a few years back in order to find a long term solution at manager. After possibly losing farreln now the team will be without a manger again. However, I will say it entirely depends on the compensation. If they get de la rosa I think it has to be considered a win. If they get clay mortensen, it is a big time fail.

  8. the worst part is that they dragged this on

    if you were going to trade him getit fuckin overwith quickly so that u can get a new manager in place

  9. Please just make it stop!

  10. Okay, so it looks more and more like this could be happening.

    What will be interesting for me is to hear about the Farrell fallout. What exactly was the cause of the rift between Farrell and AA? Could it possibly be that Farrell was not enamoured when he had to pencil in Laffey into the rotation once too many?

    I doubt we will know the whole story. But some shit will hit the fan once this all goes down.

    • It’s probably a lot more than this, but I don’t think Farrell liked it at all that Anthopoulos gave him a nothing rotation in 2012. He kind of said as much at the end of the year.

      • Bingo.

        Farrell is used to the red sox where money is no object.

        AA may have had a better budget before Rogers bought Mlse.

        If butter and the others leave, Rogers has a problem on their hands.

      • I wouldnt call it a nothing rotation. I’d say the rotation simply had no depth. Partially because the team refused to spend $ to add depth last season. I think Farrell was expecting the team to be more active and increase payroll. Obviously, thats never the case with this ownership group.

        • It was a pretty bad, inexperienced rotation and its lack of success was foreseeable. Injuries or not, Anthopoulos did not give Farrell a team that was good enough to contend in 2012. I can see why he would be frustrated about that.

      • Not really much AA could have done about that, so if that is why Farrell was pissed, then he needs to go fuck off.

        Besides, wasn’t Laffey a Farrell guy? I thought we got Laffey as insurance because of his time he spent in Cleveland while Farrell was there.

      • Sad. Really sad all this shit. Farrell was dished a big shit sandwich with injuries. Then no acquisitions from AA and Rogers to fill it in.

        I’m not sad at the person John Farrell leaving, I’m disappointed at seeing our manager under contract going to an American league rival and the message it sends to free agents, superstars etc.

        This is like starting all over again as far as I am concerned.

  11. I just want this to happen and end already! Just work something out, and announce it already, then quickly hire a new manager.

  12. Stoeten – 

    i’ve long been under the impression Wakamatsu was handling the in-game strategy. obviously Farrell has the authority to chart a different course and the buck stops with him, but the results of the in-game strategy seem to me to be at least a shared responsibility. thoughts?

    • Wakamatsu is absolutely the worst. I still remember those 6 games that he managed last year. Shit bull pen management and players don’t have good relationship with him. He had the same problems in Seattle.

      • I say fire Wak if Farrell leaves. Only reason he was brought in was because of Farrell.

        The new manager should be able to pick his bench coach, who is his right-hand man.

  13. Let’s get Sandy Alomar up in here, damn it. I’m sick of talking about Boston.

  14. Why do people keep referencing the manager & general manager trades from last year that are completely different than this situation… what about Pinella for Randy Winn? Winn, who had a 5 WAR season no? There is much more leverage the Blue Jays have here than the White Sox with Guillen.

    • Good point.

      I forgot where I read it, might have been an Elliot column, but the Mariners asked for Hamilton, Crawford, or Roco Baldelli (all elite prospects at the time) but settled for Randy Winn, who was 28 and coming off an all-star selection season (wasn’t a 5 WAR season though).

      But who on the Red Sox would you exactly want? I think Bard would be the best case scenario.

  15. I would prefer a legit roster player over a maybe roster player and a prospect. If they are getting Butters+ too then I expect something that could be put to good use in 2013.

  16. I wonder if I should be preparing myself for the first disappointment of the off season, you know, just in case.

    • Marcum I would only want as like a plan B this off-season.

      Has some major injury concerns.

      And all he said is that he has Toronto on his list, cause he enjoyed his time here. But later says he is open to playing in either league, and for any team. So really, sounds like he is just going for the team that will pay the most.

      • He was our No. 1 briefly! And he has averaged ~175 innings over the last 5 years.

        • Big difference between pitching #1 and being a #1. Marcum was certainly NOT the latter.

          I did like him though, he’d be a great 3 guy.

    • I’d be happy slotting him as a #3. Of course he’s an injury worry as well considering he’s had issues 3 of the last 5 years. Still if he’d one of the guys to push Happ out of the rotation completely I’d be more than happy.

    • would love Marcum if he isn’t the only pitcher we bring in. Makes the Lawrie trade that much better :)

  17. Never thought I’d see stoeten salivate at giving up our manager to a division rival for spare parts.

  18. Bogaerts is obviously something that would be good for the jays, and the red sox have traded their SS of the future in the past. so, then toss in a guy like Olmsted that wasn’t even on anyone’s prospect list last year and that sounds good. Sure they give up their top prospect, but Miami gave up two of their top 4 last year to get a guy that was on the outs with management. this is a guy that we have little reason to believe wants out (other than because boston is banging his door down) and wants to take 1/2 the staff with him. Boston’s #1 prospect plus this other guy seems “reasonable” from the POV of this fanatic fan of toronto.

    • Bogaerts by himself seems unreasonable. If the Jays get Bogaerts for Farrell, AA worked his ninja magic. But no way they get Bogaerts plus someone else.

    • To get Bogaerts, the Jays would probably have to do something like Farrell plus a player.

      • it isn’t JUST farrell though – it’s basically the coaching staff. so as much as two days ago i thought the “at least bard” crowd were worthy of ridicule, if boston wants farrell, as they’ve said all along and they don’t wanna wait another second…they should pay and pay through the TEETH.
        i am hoping that the jays make a move here that does something to address their OF, MI, or SP holes. i expect to be disappointed, but if AA has learned anything…davidi’s piece which TEASED BARD – should have done the opposite of last off season, and instead UNDER-PROMISE and OVER-DELIVER for a change.

  19. OK so if some coaches walk with Farrell, are they factored into the compensation or are they free to walk away at this point?

  20. The whole (pretty much) coaching staff? Makes me wonder what’s going on within the organization. Probably nothing. But if they all go, maybe fresh set of eyes all around cant hurt. Famous last words.

  21. Cito for a year grooming Alomar

  22. Ugh still can’t believe this but as the article says, when there’s this much smoke… I still hate it.

    Moving forward though I wonder what this means for the rest of the coaching staff. I’m not just talking the bench, 1st and 3rd base coaches either. What about Murphy and Walton? Personally, I haven’t been all that impressed with Walton since he took over. I know I can’t pin the results of the last 3 years solely on him especially when I defend Murphy the same way but it’s just this irrational feeling I have towards him. Again completely irrational I know but I just don’t necessarily see the same success stories that Murphy has had with guys like Bautista, EE, Scutaro or Buck. Each of those guys all had career years under Murphy. The Jays offense has ranked at the top or near the top for the last couple of years in runs scored. Unfortunately, the Jays pitching can’t say the same. At least as things stand now Murphy will have additional help in 2013.

    Will a new manager want to have control in deciding on all the coaches working for him? One wonders if Farrell didn’t feel short changed in having no decision with regards to Walton of Murphy. Then again with the hitting and pitching coaches being fairly influential positions you have to wonder if the team doesn’t want more control over those spots so they can institute an organizational direction or philosophy for their instruction so that players coming up from the minors don’t get skewed in all different directions as we’ve seen with guys like Snider in the past.

    Personally I always wondered why that wasn’t enforced more strictly from the top down. It also brings up another point I had this season with regards to the basics like bunting, throwing and fielding. Why on earth after so many years in the minors are the big league coaches having to correct fundamental flaws that should have been identified and fixed in the minors long before they get a call up? Things like base running, proper footwork for throwing or little things like the proper sun glasses should be perfected before costing the team games. Mistakes are one thing. Lack of knowledge or ability is another.

    • Bruce Walton has a great relationship with the starting staff though, as guys like Morrow and Romero have said this, and even Marcum said he loved him in his recent interview with sportsnet. I think play relationships are very important for pitching coaches.

      I think the new manager should for sure pick his bench coach, because that is his right-hand man. The other coaches I don’t think are as important, but they need to have some sort of good relationship and strong communication with each other.

      I would like Murphy and Walton back, and hopefully Butter stays too. Then, if Luvollo goes, maybe Chad Mottola as the 1B coach. Then the new manager (I’d like this to be Luvollo or Rivera, but what the fuck do I know) and who ever the new manager wants to be the bench coach.

      • Oh I agree and I think that when you factor in all the shitty arms Walton has had to oversee during his tenure for various reasons it makes my feelings even more irrational. Again I used the same premise to defend Murphy. More rookies, less payroll and still getting consistent results in the run scored department with standout seasons from other guys.

        I do think Mattola can be a positive influence if he does stick around as a 2nd hitting coach in 2013.

    • Also, will the Jays just let Rivera, Butter, and Luvollo go?

      Isn’t the policy they need to get promotions for the organization to let their employees leave?

      I guess Torey can be seen as getting a promotion from say 1B coach to hitting or bench coach, and Rivera can be seen as getting a promotion from special assistant to an actual coach. But I don’t see Butter getting a promotion over 3B coach (unless he goes to bench coach, because he isn’t really a hitting coach).

      But will be interesting to see the organization’s philosophy on letting these guys go.

  23. This picture needs some speech bubbles.

    Beckett: I ate all the chicken, John. I’m a champ.
    Farrell: Mind. Blown.

  24. Jays let Farrell and half his coaching staff go to Boston for Zach Stewart. Ugh!

    Why does Toronto do this unless they at least get a useful arm like De Rosa? Why let Boston get what they want from you? They’re your rival. Don’t help then out.

  25. So is the reason this type of “trade” can occur while the playoffs are still on is because the Sox arent receiving a player in return? Or does this process have to wait until the Series is done?

    • Pretty sure it can happen now.

      I think you can even trade players in the playoffs, if they cleared waivers, but you can’t add them to a playoff roster. There is no real hard trade deadline.

      But you can just make them PTBNL if they have to clear waivers.

  26. Count me as firmly in the “at least Bard” camp. Even if I hated JF (which I might) I just can’t stomach the idea of simply letting him go to Boston just because they want him.

    Make it hurt for them (not that Bard hurts too much) or let them figure out their own solutions to their throughly self-induced problems.

    I see no reason whatsoever to make it easy for them, if for no other reason then to be a C-word.

  27. What the hell is a Kolbren Vitek?

  28. Why couldn’t they take Dwayne Murphy as well?

    • That would be awesome!

      Can’t really fire Murphy without pissing people like Bautista and EE off. But if he left with Farrell, the organization would have an excuse.

      But Murphy isn’t a Farrell guy.

  29. At the end of the day, the only way AA and the Jays don’t look like punks is if they put together a credible manager and coaching team and go out and have a winning record next year. If the majority of the coaching staff is supposedly ready to walk, then embrace it and make a wholesale change in coaching staff, including the trainers. Can anyone think of a coach that stood out in their role this year?

    I’m in favour of bringing in Sandy and Roberto Alomar and let them build their coaching staff.

    • Maybe not Robbie in any official capacity…

    • Sandy I like, Robbie not so much. What experience does Robbie have as a coach?

      I guess if you hire Sandy, you let him pick who ever he wants as bench coach. So if he wants Robbie as bench coach, you let him. But I don’t think you hire Sandy and Robbie and let them just build a staff. Hire Sandy and let him pick his bench coach and have some say in the rest of the staff.

    • I like the idea of both. Even if Robbie doesn’t have “coaching” experience per say, there’s nothing like the real world experience he’s accumulated since he was a kid. Add to that his achievements and I think you’ve got a guy that would instantly command a lot of respect.

      If the can help foster a more unified one family atmosphere in the clubhouse then all the better. I know that’s veering off into intangibles territory but with so many young guys I do think it’s important.

      I’d rather the Jays clubhouse take on a “us against the world” mentality than all the swagger bs we saw starting in spring training last year.

      • I think the Alomar’s are more of the swagger kind…at least Robbie is.

      • Robbie never seemed like the sharpest tack in the drawer. I think you are all out to lunch on this one.

        • He’s not doing their taxes; he’s teaching them proper footwork and how to catch da ball. He was always reputed to have a very high baseball IQ for what that’s worth. He’s already been brought in to work with players in Dunedin. The guy was an intense competitor and the Jays could use a little more of that kind of intensity and a lot less of those stupid dances in the dugout.

          • Not to mention the big PR bump it would be for Rogers and the Jays to hire a former, and beloved, player like that.

            PR seems to be what this team is mostly about anyway, right?

          • @Bacon Only the bad kind these days it seems.

  30. Zzzzzzzz

  31. I remember hearing, when Acta was fired, that he had a basic understanding of sabremetrics, at least as close as you get with men that might actually get hired as a manager of a team. Anyone else remember that? He had nothing to do with the failures of the Nats team he was managing; they just didn’t have any talent.

    • Cleveland as a whole of an organization is a pretty sabremetric based organization, from what I have read. They were one of the early adopters of it, and their GM is pretty inclined to it.

      So I would imagine Manny Acta is too, but also maybe Sandy Alomar, who has been bench coach their since 2009.

  32. Farrellgate.

  33. Farrell, and Butter too? Boy I can’t wait to see some over exaggerated shifts in the Boston infield.

    I still can’t decide whether I liked that or not. But I feel like it will be a nice arguing point amongst the Massholes next year if they park their 3rd baseman in shallow right field against the pull happy lefty batters.

  34. Gammons was on Mad Dog radio on Sirius and said it was 50/50 between Farrell and Ausmus. At the end of the interview he said: “I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Ausmus is the next manager.”

    • Everyone seems to like Aumus.
      If it isn’t Farrell, I dont see how he can come back and manage here with any credibility. I realize this is none of his call, but if he had felt any kind of commitment to the Jays he could have had a quiet word with the Sox ages ago and ask them to pull back please and I believe they would have respected that.

      • how is none of this his call? the rumours didn’t persist because aa was making them…someone was opening that door on this side. who else, if not farrell?

        • The Man in White!!

          He’s flipped. The Sox got to him.

        • I agree, he didn’t stifle any rumors. I meant he wasn’t responsible for the situation that jump-started this which was the firing of Francona.

          But AA’s dissatisfaction with Farrell may well have started last off-season, when he could have told Boston from the get-go he was committed to the Jays. I think that was the beginning of the end of Farrell for AA and maybe for the veteran players as well. Who wants to play hard for a guy with his foot permanently out the door? Maybe that’s where the recent comment about the front office being willing to charter a jet to ship him out comes from.

  35. Man, the guy who proposed that “Farrell, Rasmus, KJ and Lind for Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester and Mauro Gomez” deal to Griff is sure going to be upset.

    Seriously though, you think about where things were with this team in March. Forget the spring record…new uniforms, attendance spiking, the logo everywhere, a real feel that this was becoming a baseball town again. Even the idiots calling Wilner and bitching about how they didn’t grab Darvish and Fielder, as annoying as they were/are, were good signs for the team, because it meant people — casual fans — were getting invested in the team at a new level, beyond just “Hey let’s grab a ballgame tonight because we’re right here and they have beer”. And now, here we are 6 months later, talking about the possibility of yet ANOTHER black eye on the franchise, as they appear ready to make a move that reminds us of the old Kansas City A’s in the 1950s, when they were really nothing more than an extra Yankees farm club playing in the American League.

    Now, granted, the Blue Jays aren’t close to becoming the Red Sox version of the KC A’s. And with or without Farrell or good/bad compensation for his services, this is still a very fixable club. We’re not talking about trying to get rid of a declining 38 year old prima donna with a $114 million albatross contract, or the 1980s Yankees teams that were only properly rebuilt into the Jeter teams after Steinbrenner was banned for a year, or the last 20 seasons of Pirates baseball, or the post-strike Expos, or even the 2012 Houston Astros. Those are all craters that are hard to climb out of without great baseball management and fantastic luck (remember, the Yankees only got Jeter because 5 other teams passed on him at the draft, including the Expos). This Jays mess is more amazing to me though, not because of the size of it, but because how fast it’s happened. It’s stunning how quickly everything has turned for these Jays in the span of a season, from Toronto being touted as both 2012′s surprise young team and a future powerhouse from many corners of the media on both sides of the 49th, to this absolute calamity of errors in the last few months. As I said, this is absolutely not the worst team baseball’s ever seen, and there are pieces in-house and available from other clubs that can help right the ship quickly. It just won’t be an easy climb out of the hole the Jays have dug for themselves, both on the field and in the eyes of fans and media.

    Baseball is a cruel game, friends. What a crash it’s been.

    • Well said.

    • What mess are you talking about? This Farrell biz is messy but if we get something for him, who cares? Otherwise we have a bunch of injured players that hopefully come back strong. One of the best farm systems. A small payroll – better than a big one looking back. And looking forward AA has said they will be opening the wallet this winter.

      Settle down. Get back to work or something.

  36. Can I just say, with a sense of all reasonableness and balance – fuck this shit. Fuck this shit to hell.

    I don’t really know if I care if Farrell stays or goes, but seeing the rest of the coaching staff go with him to a division rival, and getting a bag of balls in return, just seems shitty on so many levels. At the very least it seems to underline that Anthopolous’s master plan is getting completely rebuilt on the fly.

    His manager and staff – gone.
    His trades – Colby, Johnson, Yunel – don’t really look like the winners we thought they might be (to say the least)
    Pitching staff – a bag of question marks.
    His first baseman – still Adam fucking Lind
    His Left fielder – still a fucking 4th outfielder

    I’ve really, really tried to keep the faith and not join the ranks of the doom-merchants and panickers. But fuck, really?

    • You sir are a fucking tool.

      First of all no one has left.

      I want to let that sink in. No one has left. You are starting your whole rant based on an event that hasn’t happened. And even if it did happen. You have no idea what we would be getting back.

      Then you generalize about a bunch of things and leave out a bunch of things (unloading Vernon, acquiring Lawrie, signing Bautista, signing EE, Morrow, Gose, etc.)

      Get a clue.

      • While your kissing his ass, lean over and kiss,mine too. He has a right to be disappointed and upset as I am too, without being called a fucking tool. What make your comments so concrete, this team currently needs a tent pitched around it because it is a Circus side show right now.

        • So you are disappointed because the team hasn’t announced something that hasn’t happened and that we shouldn’t really care either way whether it does happen or not? That’s pretty meta. It’s only a circus because you have pulled up your own lawn chair next to a big turd and hope it belongs to a dancing elephant.

      • You sir, are not paying attention to what I’m saying.

        There are lots of entirely reasonable reasons to be disheartened with things in Jays Land right now, even for those of us who have been on the Anthopolous bandwagon, and don’t want to fall off.

        I don’t think managers matter nearly as much as we’re meant to believe. So why care if Farrell goes? In a way I don’t, but it was definitely not part of the Anthopolous roadmap, and there are a lot of things right now that were not part of that roadmap, and which collectively threaten to overwhelm Anthopolous’s vision of where this team is going.

        Farrell has not left, but it seems likely he will. It seems likely that what we get back will be what we should get back – ie, not very much.

        Anthopolous has done some great things – but the greatest thing was a negative – dumping a bad deal on another team.

        Acquiring Lawrie – good, but we still don’t know entirely what we have.
        Signing Bautista – very good
        Signing EE – very good
        Morrow – very good
        Gose – who knows what we have there. A plus fielder with a minus bat and no position to play.

        Even in that group, the only players without question marks are EE and Morrow. Bautista could be a declining asset.

        It’s depressing that we’re another year forward, and a lot of positions are filled by far from optimal talent, while what seems an ok-to-above-average coaching staff is likely going to be lost or rebuilt.

    • can you honestly say that you’d rather be a fan of the red sox? this is a team that going into this season, i thought was going to walk away with it. only to be undone by the petulant children in the clubhouse – so much so that they traded youkilis, and regardless of what seamheads tell you – his turnaround in play seemed to coincide nicely with getting the fuck out of that toxic situation.
      they traded away their team. and then on the field, the hapless and listless play they demonstrated cakewalked their asses to a nice draft pick.

      now, their saviour is toronto’s manager? sure. no matter what boston does this offseason, all they can hope to do is add josh hamilton and zack grienke…they aren’t that close to being good anymore. will fucking middlebrooks? who even plays 1b for these idiots anymore? who is their outfield? it’s pedroia and then ellsbury and MAYBE some pitching…if farrell can convince them to not suck…which is to say: if they actually don’t suck anymore.

      so yea, come off it and calm the fuck down. if farrell wants to go play saviour in a town where the owner allegedly wants OUT….fine. i doubt the red sox spend, and with luck, this will be the beginning of a big drought for that team as it rides the wave of success they built the last decade. i see no evidence that a team that is looking to their fucking manager as the be-all-end-all cause for their woes has a fucking clue.

      go jays. go fucking jays go. and fuck all that say otherwise.

  37. Wake me when this is over…

  38. Seriously? I can’t see butter leaving, I actually think he deserves the chance to manage. And for the rest… Maybe it’s time for a shake up anyways? Wako can follow Farrell coz who gives a fuck lol. I’m not sure like the rest of us who will be here as part of the coaching staff next year but I do believe Butter deserves a shot… He’s got the respect from the players and fans, he’s a baseball guy and has been with the Toronto organization for many years. What we need is a guy that can work with the young guys and have seen them develop over the years and Butter fits the bill

  39. Listening to the getting blanked podcast, and sounded like Parkes slipped in some info he was told that he wasn’t suppose to share (at least by Drew’s and Andrew’s reactions).

    Said that the comp for Farrell is all done, but now just negotiating what coaches leave with him.

  40. I guess it might be worth remembering that AA and Beest have proven that they are TERRIBLE at controlling the ‘message’ and manipulating the media.

    This time last year people were foaming at the mouth for Darvish/Fielder etc, and AA/Beest really didn’t do enough to lower expectations. It was almost laughable how out of control they let it get (I remember there was even a Fan 590 Darvish special during the annoucement).

    So.. I guess what I’m saying is… who the fuck knows? Maybe they ARE working on an extension. Maybe Farrell is happy being here, but AA feels he’s got to at least see if Boston will overpay.

    I listened to the Carfado interview on Prime Time Sports and he basically said “I really have no idea what’s going on, I just know they’re talking.” Interesting since he’s the source of most of this speculation.

    • AA is on year 3 of this job and hasn’t learned to Under-Promise and Over-Deliver. It doesn’t help that Beeston shoots his mouth off about real grass in the ‘dome, and payroll half-cocked every time they can tear him away from golfing with old white dudes with money.

      • Oh holy fuck what fucking rhetoric. Can you guys settle down. Give it a whole day. Shit. Twitter has ruined the world. You guys think you are entitled to news just because you are bored.

        • So sons. After reflectihg this past season, everything is all rose and superduper in your shit stained eyes?

          This organization is bullshit right now.

          • @Artist

            We either keep our half-decent manager (I don’t mind him) or get a free player and promote someone else.

            Otherwise we have had a bad injury year and the silver lining is AA is in “now” mode and has said more money will be spent.

            Nothing else has change… oh EE got better, Bautista stayed pretty awesome, JPA, Lawrie, Morrow all were in the realm of what you would expect (injuries aside). Drabek, Alvarez, Rasmus, Escobar and a couple others had off years, they can get back though, Lind sucked which is good because even AA has admitted it now.

            What is so different other than the year was mostly a write-off?

            Even our farm system is probably better after a decent draft by AA.

          • I would say that Romero falling off a cliff was kind of a big deal considering the team only has one other good, dependable starting pitcher (if you even want to call Morrow dependable).

            There are some very talented players in this organization (including two of the best hitters in the majors that emerged out of basically nothing), but the Jays look nowhere near ready to contend with the best teams in baseball any time soon and I don’t see how anybody could argue against that right now.

        • what are you on about? AA lives in the same world as you and me that all this is happening in- that he has no clue how to manage the media isn’t my fault. i’m just observing what is blatantly obvious to me.
          this “story” is one that presents him a good chance to ding the red sox, and get rid of a manager he may or may not give a shit about.

        • + eleventy billion.

  41. Compensation for Farell will be low… Dont get your expectations to high, I just want this to end before the World Series does so we can get on improving our team. I can’t remember who I’m quoting but ” good players makes good manager ” and he’s absolutely right!!! St. Louis is a perfect example of that.

    • NBA Isiah Thomas
      NHL Wayne Gretzky
      MLB Ted Williams.
      NFL Mike Ditka

      the answer to that is no. smart players make smart managers.

      • I don’t think he meant that in the literal sense, of ex-players making good managers. I think it was more intended as a commentary on how players with talent make the manager LOOK good. Maybe not, but that’s how I took it.

      • i meant good players on the feild make good managers…. yankees are a good example of that… did Joe Torre win the Yankees all those championships? coz ive noticed their doing just fine with Giradi or how ever the fuck u spell his name as the manager, fucking ugly betty can manage that team and still win. You can have a management team of the Avengers and it wont mean shit if your team sucks donkey balls

    • It’s talent among the players that’s ultimately going to win games for the Jays not the managers. That said, we need to ask the simple question does all this Farrell BS make it more or less likely that free agents are going to come to Toronto? Seeing as there are quite a few holes to fill on this team and not a lot of MLB ready prospects to fill them they certainly are going to need a big talent influx.

      Who knows, maybe it’s for the best, a fresh start, a clean slate that type of thing but I just hate making a deal to help Boston. It’s not like we’re in sell mode in August then looking at a two year rebuild where trading players to Boston or the Yankees wouldn’t make much of a difference. With the resurgence of the Orioles, who knows if it’s truly for real or not, this division certainly isn’t getting any easier even with the mess in Boston and one potentially in New York. We have to remember both those teams lost a ton of time to injuries as well and have the willingness to spend.

  42. I don’t know why AA would consider this, unless it is going to make his team a hella lot better and he thinks that it will make the Red Sox a hella lot worse.

  43. I’d like to see Butter promoted and see how he feels about Sal as bench coach. A couple bodies out the door might make room for Mottola on the field.

  44. I have never heard of an entire staff going to a division rival like this. In all of sports. We’re really going to play 18 games against EVERYONE who was in our coaching staff? How is Rasmus going to do at the plate if over a 10th of his at-bats are against people who know his every weakness? He’s already managed just one good month without that info out there. Farrell’s just OK, but this is insane. Whatever the Sox give up in return better HURT. Bard is a starting point.

    With how the AL East is, I really don’t understand helping these clowns out like this. Why not let them have a lame duck manager for a year while they wait for Farrell’s contract to expire? It’s not like Farrell isn’t going to do a great job and drive his own price up if he stuck with us in 2013. Letting them twist in their own shit and an Orioles bounce back and protected picks would make next year a great one to sign some dudes and strike. Christ, this team sometimes.

    • “Now… it entirely makes sense that Farrell would want to take some of his own coaching staff with him, but I’m rather surprised at the suggestion of Rivera and Butterfield, who both preceded Farrell as members of the organization, and not Don Wakamatsu, who Farrell essentially brought with him as bench coach.”

      Wakamatsu wasn’t a Farrell guy. AA clearly explained afterwards that he’d been really impressed by Wakamatsu in managerial interviews and strongly suggested to Farrell that they’d be crazy to let his experience get away. AA said that he let Farrell decide, but that he would have been very surprised (ie, disappointed in Farrell’s judgement) if he didn’t agree. In, other words, AA made Farrell an offer he couldn’t refuse.

      As for Butterfield and Rivera wanting out, this shouldn’t be a surprise. Both want to manage and if they get passed over yet again this time for the Jays top job, then no point sticking around to keep chasing that unreachable carrot here.

      So if they’re just in it as coaches, why not look for greener pastures. Boston is Boston with a big baseball allure (and maybe bigger bucks?). And Butterfield is a New England, while Rivera played five years there with all the warm and fuzzy memories and personal connections that may imply.

    • (Doh, reply fail. Wasn’t meant to bea reply to your post.)

  45. I dont care about compensation . I just want Sandy Alomar in here. Make the jays the latino baseball player capital of the majors. Sandy will help. If we want to sign big name free agents, we are more likely to have a chance with the latino ones anyway vs the americans.

  46. Oh..just make it stop. (thud – head hits the table) Make it stop (thud). Chinese water torture.

  47. I see Deadspin has picked it up, mocking the Red Sox.

  48. If Farrell’s leaving and with many not altogether disappointed to see his (neophyte?) game-calling go, here’s some food for thought from Richard Griffin’s latest mail bag:

    “In any case, as you point out, 10 of the 12 Jays’ managers in history were accepting their first major-league managerial role. The only managers who had previously done the job elsewhere were Bobby Cox (previously with the Atlanta Braves) and Jim Fregosi, who took over from Tim Johnson on St. Patrick’s Day 1999. And that was a case of him living in Tarpon Springs just up the road from Dunedin and being available to start right away. The Jays needed some major-league credibility to follow up on Johnson. Is Canada a factor in that statistic? Are the Jays just an ambitious coach’s opportunity to get his foot in the door? Well, yeah.”

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/article/1271723–richard-griffin-s-mailbag-would-nick-swisher-look-good-in-a-blue-jays-uniform

    Jesus, 10 out of 12 of our managers have been rookies?! Sure, rookies can do just fine, with Cito taking us to the playoffs four times and the promised land twice. And Bobby Valentine’s flame-out in Boston shows that experience doesn’t necessarilly get you anywhere.

    But, 10 out of 12 rookie managers seems extremely lopsided. Oris it? I’d imagine professional sports has a large percentage of first-time managers as many don’t get another shot. So I don’t know, maybe the Jays aren’t unusual. should we care aboutmajor-league experience if we’re on the hunt for a manager again?

    With a lot of young players, maybe the Jays ought to try something different and find someone who’s proven they can do the job (even if that’s no sure bet), instead of traini

  49. If Farrell goes, Toronto must hire Ausmus. If only for spite.

  50. Winn had a 4.6WAR season with a .360 OBP the year before he was traded for Pinella.

    I think Doubront & Bard could work in a trade for Farrell. Not as much value as the Mariners got from Tampa but more than the very little value Chicago received for Guillen.

    Most Jays fans believe they need to get it done very quickly or move on. If this is suppose to be such a pivotal offseason, they shouldn’t be spending/wasting so much time on this. There are more important priorities, like rebuilding the pitching staff. If they’re not getting MLB value from Boston than this is a waste of time for the Blue Jays, regardless of the outcome.

  51. I think that there is an excellent chance that Farrell is done here regardless of what happens with Boston. I believe AA thinks he made a mistake when he hired him and intends to rectify the situation. When the circus started last year, Farrell didn’t seem to oppose going to the Sux and that right there told the front office everything they needed to know. They forced him to stay here but my bet is they were never gonna renew his contract anyway whatever happened in Boston. They want a manager who is committed to this club.

    If I were a conspiracy theorist and sometimes I am, I would not be surprised if Omar Vizquel’s comments were made with at least some prior knowledge on AA’s part. I think he has about had enough with Farrell. I think he’d fly that charter plane out of town himself if he could.

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