For Shit sakes, can’t a man just watch Lionheart and get drunk without some supposedly significant news breaking?

Um… evidently not, because Sean McAdam of CSN New England tweets what we’ve been longing to fucking hear: it’s finally official, John Farrell will manage the Boston Red Sox.

Alex Speier of tweets that compensation won’t be announced for a couple days– thank fuck.

Earlier, MLBTR passed along Denver Post reporter Troy Renck’s tweet that Sandy Alomar Jr. is now the favourite to manage the Jays. Alomar was reportedly the runner-up to Farrell when the Jays searched for a manager two years ago– and can’t you just see them raping the corpse of ’92-’93 to help soften the blow by putting Robbie on the staff? Not that he may not be qualified, but… y’know… holy fucking cynical.

But hey, everyone loves Robbie– and that would certainly soften this PR blow. Or the PR blow that will come when the fans who know two players on the Red Sox find out we’re not getting either one of them.

Or maybe it won’t happen. We don’t know yet– or maybe I just don’t know, because I’ve spent the last 20 minutes typing this out on my phone, and all kinds of shit might be different by now.

I’ll update you if that’s the case, but until then, thank fuck it’s over. Let’s get drunk.

UPDATE: Jon Morosi tweets that the player the Jays will receive was a Major Leaguer in 2012, and is an infielder. Not Middlebrooks.

Hey, cryptic games for two days– just what we need!

Or, y’know, it’s fucking Ciriaco.

UPDATE THE SECOND: Or maybe it isn’t. Rob Bradford of tweets that Mike Aviles is coming our way. Hey, so do we have a second baseman, maybe? Sure, why not?

UPDATE THE THIRD: Obviously Aviles helps the Jays nicely in freeing them up to trade a shortstop, if so inclined. And seeing as that kind I stuff is by far the most important aspect to the off-season, it’s hat I complain.

Better still? Bob Elliott tweets that we shouldn’t be surprised to see Adam Lind also go the other way. Sure, fine.

Comments (786)

  1. Still hate it but it’s a reality now. As you say the only that will soften the PR blow is good news on the new manager and who the compensation is.

    • New manager is confirmed..Bobby V. and as for the compensation, Aviles is the final piece to the puzzle, the straw that stirs the drink.

  2. Morsi appears to be getting leaks. I don’t think it will take a couple days to find out the compensation.

  3. I feel like popping champagne. Biggest thing to celebrate about since 93

  4. PR blow? What were the Jays to do? Make a guy work there who doesn’t want to be? Any compensation is found money.

  5. Morosi tweets that the player coming to the Jays played on the Red Sox in 2012.

    My money is on Kalish.

  6. Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi

    I’m told #BlueJays are getting an infielder. And no, not Will Middlebrooks.

    Coin flip James Loney or Nick Punto lol

  7. Morosi said it’s an infielder, I bet it’s Aviles. I wanted Bard though.

  8. Peddrr…..Daniel Nava? Maybe a Kalish/Davis platoon?

  9. Ciriaco or Aviles.

  10. This is a good thing. A very good thing.

  11. I’m guessing it’s Jose Iglesias

  12. You’d think AA would sooner take another hard throwing relief pitcher like Morales than a spare part on Boston’s infield.

  13. Aviles and Ciriaco will make us remember Kelly Johnson fondly.

    • Aviles was as good as KJ last year, will cost way less allowing Jays to spend more on free agent pitchers.

  14. Oh great. Aviles? I guess Youkilis and Gonzalez are out. Who’s left.

    As for Mr Farrell, if he succeeds in Boston it will be a big surprise. I think his fatal flaw is that he doesn’t really want to be a manger.

    • What the hell does that possibly mean?

      • i think it means someone who “guesses” Youk and Gonzalez couldn’t be the compensation, because y’know they are both on different teams, thinks they know what it means to manage a baseball team.

  15. Possibly Ciriaco if they actually give up an MLB player. He can play 2B and Boston sees him as “that coloured boy”, as some old trucker referred to him when I was in a beer line at Fenway in the summer.

    More likely a minor league scrub player though, “for added depth!”

  16. Aviles.

  17. Who could it be? Aviles, Ciriaco, Mauro Gomez, Ivan de Jesus, Danny Valencia, Jose Iglesias, Mike Aviles, or James Loney?

  18. Why? Why does he say that? Like how could he possibly get the name and opt to say “infielder, MLB’er this past year” and stop there? Or is that all the info? Because some source is a giant prick and says “infielder MLB’er from 2012, but you have to guess.” Fuck sakes. I’d rather have nothing than this horseshit.

    • Agreed. This is the weakest shit I have ever seen in sports reporting. Either come with nothing or say who it is. GUYS HE WAS ON THE SOX in 2012 AND HIS DAUGHTER LIKES UNICORN DICK.

  19. I don’t care who comes back so long as the goal isn’t getting a major league scrub just because he can fill an empty spot. Fuck that.

  20. NotSureIfWant.jpg

  21. it’s Mike Aviles.

  22. I think I win

  23. Ugh Aviles. Up and down player. Who knows, maybe Murphy can turn him around again but a guy that puts up a .663 OPS in Fenway doesn’t inspire a lot of hope. Kelly Johnson still looks good next to him.

    • I wish someone on here would have said “Mike Aviles is about all the Jays are going to get” a month ago. Fuck it, I’m glad I didn’t get my hopes up. So i guess Ciriaco or Jose Iglesias can sink that ship next year.

  24. Well Mike Aviles…

  25. While Mike Aviles is nothing special, somebody that could credibly be on any 25-man roster in the league is a lot more than I was expecting.

  26. lol Now Elliot is say:

    bob elliott ‏@elliottbaseball

    Don’t be surprised if 1B Adam Lind also heads to Fenway

    • Clear up a spot and cash for David Ortiz!!!!

      • I don’t see it happening to be honest. There was reports that he was in the process of negotiating a long-term extension today.

        That makes sense to me especially if he new Farrell was on his way back.

        Also I’d rather get a third starter for Ortiz money, keep Lind as Left handed platoon and have d’Arnaud as the right handed portion.

        • Ortiz was negotiating, but I heard they weren’t close. Boston wants another 1-year deal. Ortiz wants a 2 year deal in the $25-30 million range.

          I think Ortiz at least tests the market.

      • we won’t get ortiz now.

  27. Aviles had a OBP of 282 last season and a career mark of .308… eek.

  28. Fucking Aviles is garbage! Who the fuck are we giving up along with him?

  29. Aviles seems like an okay return. 2 win player that had a career low BABIP last year despite a career high line drive %. Good UZR at short. Maybe not a sexy name, but safer than somebody like Bard who was AAA fodder last year. Won’t be thrilled if he’s the starting 2B next year, but certainly an excellent bench player or injury fill-in.

  30. If the compensation is only Mikes Aviles, what was the fucking point of this?

    What a fucking pointless PR hit.

    • Adam Lind going the other way would with Boston assuming the remainder of his contract would be nice.

    • Wilner just said it best imo (yes I said it) by saying Mike Aviles certainly wasn’t the offer the Jays couldn’t refuse.

  31. Mike Aviles wears a swagger sleave… Wow!

  32. Fuck, Lind only gets paid $5 million next season?

    • Which is why he’s still a good option as a left handed platoon imo.

      • I for some reason thought he was getting paid closer to $10 million.

        Damn, that was a sweet deal AA signed him to back when he was coming off that monster season. All these years of control, and not that expensive.

    • He’s got a $2M buy out on the year after. So assuming his team declines his $7 M option for 2014, Lind gets $7M for 2013.

  33. Stoeten, did you actually believe it would take two days to get the compensation news?

  34. If they dump all of Lind’s salary as well (5 million can certainly be used a lot better than it would be on him) then this is a clear win for the Jays.

    • why? so they can pull a vernon wells trade and “reinvest” that money? because i think they’re still saying they’re redistributing that money. jesus. this team is so fucking cheap.

      if lind is gone, the team is worse than it was yesterday.
      if aviles is the plan over johnson (or really, any warm body on the FA market) the team is worse than it was two hours ago.

      stop boring me with this money shit. they could have signed carroll last off season for next to nothing on a 2-year deal but they took johnson for one year.

      another shitbag that can’t get on base: aviles.

      • It’s just opportunity cost, and yes it exists. If they’re signing a free agent pitcher, they can sign a better one. The difference between a $8m and $15m pitcher is big.

  35. If it IS Aviles, the Jays look awful, IMO. He’s a scrub. I guess Boston just used the Jays as a farm team here.

    • Aviles is a pretty good pickup for a manager. They did well because no manager is worth a roster player.

  36. So the Jays send Adam Lind to Boston, get back Aviles or Ciriaco & lose a manager???

    Wow. just Wow.

    AA looks like a chump if this is true.

    Can’t wait for the kool aid drinkers to spin this.

    • This attitude is retarded. What leverage do the Jays have in a situation like this? None. The guy doesn’t want to work for you, end of story.

      • Where did Farrell say he refused to manage the Jays in 2013??

        The Jays ha leverage over Boston not the other way around.

        If anything,the Jays could have aited to see what Farrell did in 2013.

        He would be motivated to do a god job if he wanted to join the red sox in 2014 or anywhere else.if he was fed up with Toronto.

        AA better come up with a good explanation for this clusterf..k

        • You’re a boss. Your worker comes in and says I don’t want to be here. Your response is tough shit, work harder! That is moronic and unrealistic.

      • Then demote him to guy who does whatever the fuck he wants for a year and move on

        No one is forcing Anthopolous to trade him to a division rival

        There is no precedent for this and this fucking joke of an organization sets it for Mike Aviles??

        Fuck that.

      • I’d keep Farrell for 2013 if Aviles is the player coming back.
        Make Boston have to hire another manager for a year, while paying Bobby V and waiting for Farrell in 2014.

        Dick move but worth it if Aviles is all we’re fucking getting.

  37. Also, to those calling Aviles a 2 win player, he was a 2-win player last year at SS. Whether’s he’s a 2 win player next year at 2B is questionable.

  38. So is Lind confirmed?

  39. If it is just Aviles for Farrell, it would have been better off just rejecting it and then firing Farrell in a week or two after Boston hires their guy.

    If Lind gets sent the other way, I have mixed feelings.

    • And mixed isn’t good enough. I’d want a fucking guarantee that the savings on Lind would be put back into the club via IMPACT free agents.

      • No way.

        This team is a joke. lind’s savings will be spent on reacquiring Johnny Mac because AA wants to corner the market on SS.

        Just opened a bottle of wine. So f…mad. Renewed tickets on thursday…

        • Why are you mad? Or even slightly annoyed, who cares? Its a manager, and a shitty one at that. Big deal. You sound so whiney, I wish I could afford seasons tickets, or even one ticket.

          • I am mad because AA could have got a lot more for Farrell.

            I think the Jays are selling low on Adam Lind as well.

            Aviles is not impressive.

            I would have even been happier with a couple of pitching prospects than this garbage.

            AA is a clown GM for this move,

            I better see Marcum in a Jays uniform in early December

          • Dude if you cant afford a ticket to a jays game maybe ytou should get a real job 44 dollars 10 rows up from 3rd 44 dollars lol cant afford a ticket thats a bigger joke that AA making a trade for a platoon player

        • @Oakville

          “I am mad because AA could have got a lot more for Farrell.”

          How can you POSSIBLY know this you fucking twat

    • +1. We don’t need aviles.

      So is AA’s plan to sell low on Escobar , keep aviles & hech.???

      That’s stupid.

      If we send lind to boston to save money, that’s even dumber

      • No one’s said anything yet about flipping Aviles. AA likes to do that too.

        • Carl sagan: I posted down below but after reading the earlier comments, I agree with you. AA now has surplus infielders, which means he has options. I really feel that the AA and Paul realize they blew it last year. They put to risk all the goodwill with fans they fostered the past couple of seasons. You hear rumblings about Beeston and Rogers not seeing eye to eye lately and then he gets a two year deal. I think the issue as the season came to a conclusion was my (Beeston) resume speaks for itself, I want to revitalize this franchise, I don’t have to be here, I can work anywhere in MLB, you’re making lots of loot, so give me more control over the team’s payroll. That’s why AA can say with confidence, for the first time, that the Jays will reinvest earnings into the team. They know that only happens in the future IF that goodwill (attendance, tv ratings, merchanise etc) keeps coming in. To do so, means less prospects, more MLB players in TO. My belief is more a payroll increase is only because Beeston laid down the law to Rogers, who cannot afford to the pr mess of Beeston leaving and telling why he did so, moreso than injuries or clubhouse issues making management say we need more talent. It likely would have been status quo with Laffey’s of the world coming in. But Beeston’s reputation in MLB was a stake and he called Roger’s on it and listened for a change. And it’s about time he did lay the law down. The fans, unlike Beeston’s first go round in TO, are not as patient and he knew the fanbase, rightly or wrongly, would wait no longer for the team, in the fourth largest market for sports in NA, to compete.

    • So you’re going to delay hiring a new manager even longer AND refuse the offer of a tangible asset? What shrewd management!

      Farrell’s “inside information” about the Jays is not worth that much.

  40. HAHAHAHA!!!!

    Red Sox fans on twitter seem to think Lind is good! Where have they been the last two years?!

  41. This is fucking embarrassing.


    “Ahh my fucking hallergies.”

    Someone shit the bed, and it wasn’t Farrell.

  42. God I hope this clears up a roster spot and some salary help for Big Papi!!!!!!!!

    • Or else the Jays have a massive hole at DH now too (not like Lind made it not a whole, but Lind as a lefty platoon made it not sooo bad).

      Sign Papi!!!!!!!!!

      • No way we get Papi. Papi likes Farrell.

        I haven’t been this mad since the darvish fiasco.

        This is worse because AA botched a chance to take advantage of a division rival weakness & now the Jays are even weaker because we have a surplus of INF.

  43. I can’t see Lind going the other way. Just to show us up by hitting 30 hrs around the right field foul pole.

  44. If Lind is out then that could be $5 million extra towards free agents this offseason! Nice!

    Who am I kidding? That money is being pocketed by Rogers as we speak.

  45. Aviles will take Vizquel’s role except he won’t be a complete liability.
    Seems like getting a utility player for a manager with a sub 500 record that everybody seems to like because he’s affable is decent value.

    • The Mikes Aviles’ of the world are not coveted assets. They can be had for cheap one/two year deals via free agency.

      • aa couldn’t land jamey carroll. this is a huge step in the wrong direction….someone please tell me that aviles is the second coming of roberto alomar at second (and don’t give me that “DRS sez alomar sux” shit eithe.r

  46. according to morosi it’s mike aviles!!!

    This is a bloody mess.

    Escobar expected to be traded ???

    Not so sure. I assume Aviles will play 2B??

    Aviles,escobar& Hech battling for 2 positions…

    AA gets chump award for letting the red sox gt away with murder.

    AA said we needed starting pitching, so let’s get a 31 year old mediocre INF???

    I am baffled by this move…

    • All your replies are like I are about to have mental breakdown lol calm down buddy u were lucky to get a MLB player back in this trade u were never gonna see a MlB starting pitcher come our way u are retarded for even thinking that

      • Why is that so retarded. The red sox were salivating for Farrell & AA gives him away for a mediocre at best INF who is 31.

        If AA doesn’t get what he wants , why not just let Farrell manage in 2013.

        If he fails again with a better roster then he can go to the red sox in 2014.

        Do you really think Sandy Alomar won’t have a learning curve as a new manager in 2013??

        • Ask Mike Matheny about that learning curve. Robin Ventura also came really close to the playoffs in his first season.

          Point is, you never know who is going to be a natural right off or the bat or will need time to learn on the job so I have no qualms over giving someone like Sandy Alomar Jr. a shot as Farrell’s got a slow learning curve with no guarantees he was going to pick it up in a big way in 2013.

        • A mediocre infielder is a greater return then the market dictates. Getting anything for Farrell is good. You need to take a second and re-evaluate your life if this is actually pissing you off

    • I’d tell you to calm down and get away from the ledge, but if you jump we won’t have to read your shit any more.

  47. Aviles fucking sucks. I bet Lind Kills us at Fenway. Wow, this is a joke!

  48. Still confusing. The player going back is supposed to be a lesser player than Aviles. Lind is certainly not that.

    • Yes they’ll love Lind in Boston just as he finally starts hitting once they’re out of the pennant race.

    • Lind is worse for the money. Remember, any team could have taken Lind for nothing a couple of months ago and no one did. Lind has negative value given his contract.

      • True but I think he raised his value back up again with his performance upon his return. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if he has success with a new team and hitting coach.

        • Again, you’re basing Lind on an assumption and hope that he continues his trend of slightly above average hitting. And this is after two plus seasons of absolute shit play.

          Let’s not forget Lind’s ongoing back (or is it indifference?) problems that isn’t likely to get better as he gets older. Are we really that broken up about Adam Lind?

        • I would have traded Farrell and Lind for nothing. Lind’s $7m can be used to turn an $8m free agent pitcher into a $15m pitcher, a huge difference. It’s more opportunity cost. And Aviles was as good as Johnson and makes way way less too.

  49. I think we all have to be realistic about what kind of organization we have here.
    Griffin made an interesting point the other day. A commenter asked why the Jays always seem to have first year managers and rarely get experienced guys with pedigree.

    His answer was : Yes.

    He went on to explain that this organization doesn’t thrill people as it is outside the US and it’s hard to get legitmate experienced guys to want to come. As a baseball insider who has worked in positions of authority at many levels , that is damning evidence of our insignificance in the baseball world.

    If this is true, that’s pathetic. It goes to show you that we are basically a farm team for both managers and gm’s, let alone players. No wonder AA has such a difficult time making deals with established players–the money simply isn’t there and even when it is, qualified people don’t want to take it,

    This is why missing out on the Chapman’s and Darvish’s is so damning. They were players who just wanted money–and we still tried let small market franchises kick our asss.

    • Missing out on big name managers because of organizational perception is a blessing in disguise. Who the fuck wants a Torre for 5M when a manager barely effects the game?

    • +1.

      I think the game is is over for AA.

      He can be the big kid at the kiddie table but no one should take him seriously anymore.

      Maybe AA was upset that farrell told him he wanted starting pitching insted of relievers.

      • the jays need to bring in a baseball-man gm like gillick before AA gets his hands on rogers’ wallet and goes nuts, or trades away the future for middling pieces of crap.

        • He goes after high upside guys. This is his stated philosophy. He chases risk away with team friendly contracts.

          He doesn’t spend money and he doesn’t trade the future unless it’s pitchers with serious arm troubles.

          therefore, you must be trolling carbuncle.

      • “I think the game is is over for AA.”

        Then why did u buy season tickets dipshit!

  50. Kelly Johnson is certainly looking pretty good to me right now. I know he shit the bed this year after his injury but I wouldn’t be surprised to see a Aaron Hill type revival from him next season. Obviously he’s a free agent and is going to cost more but a lot more upside there imo.

    • NM I’d be surprised if it was significant money. He didnt get any interest last year when he went FA and then returned. If he is re-signed, I wouldnt be surprised either to see him do way better. He was doing ok til his hammy went on him this year.

  51. First, AA should step down
    Second, Beeston should retire because this is becoming a waste of his time
    Third, Bautista should demand trade
    Last, Rogers is a fucking joke company

    • Go troll elsewhere.

      • You think this is a good move? This is not trolling. I have been a fan of this franchise since I was a kid and I have never seen it this bad. Prove me wrong

        • What did you expect the Jays to get for John Farrell? That’s an honest question? Who did you have your heart set on?

          • A starting pitcher, even a prospect starting pitcher at worst.

          • It should have never come to this. This guy was hired to manage this team and help improve the pitching. He failed badly and now we are back to square one. I just want something to build for. We have taken a huge step back with hiring Farrel in the first place. I just want to fucking win. No more bullshit. I want to watch the Jays in the playoffs. It has been over 20 fucking years. I just want this team to win

          • Then don’t fucking trade him.

            Create a fucking position for him to sit on his ass for a year and hire someone else

            Make a fucking statement that you’re a big league organization that doesn’t bend over for your fucking division rivals

            Fuck this cheap piece of shit laughing stock of an organization if it’s Aviles.

        • There a time in the past 15 years when the franchise was in better shape?

      • Take your own advice Argos.

  52. Where is Lind going to play in Boston anyways?

    He’s proven he can’t play 1b full time, and Loney and Ortiz are both lefties so a platoon makes no sense

  53. suicidebooth.gif

  54. wow – mike mcviles.

  55. aa is the worst gm end of story, this just keeps getting worse and worse under his watch,the decent players we had ,and that are gone, he does nothing to improve the team . And year after year its the same bag of shit…. Almost as bad as the leafs….

    • I’m absolutely astounded at how much people actually expected to get for a bench manager, let alone a sub-.500 coach.

      If teams actually thought managers brought in players like Justin Upton or some other fantastical rosterbation move, the Phanatic would be coaching the Phillies.

    • Less than a year ago i’m sure you were saying he was the best gm in the league…

    • Doesn’t it make you wonder why people WITHIN the game consider AA one of the best GMs out there.

      Maybe they know what they are talking about and you are just talking out of your ass?

  56. At the Bunk…

    What message do you think this sends the players? It tells them this team is Mickey mouse. Why do you think there is always so much unrest in the clubhouse here?

    And although you and I know we could never prove it either way, I simply don’t believe the guy who runs the team has so little influence.

    Do you really believe in your heart of hearts what you say? Or is it simply a convenient lie to tell yourself because you know we can’t do any better?

    • That is the absurd.

      • I can’t think of another team that loses its manager for chump change unless the manager was incompetent.which farrell was not.

    • The message it sends the players is that it’s OK to use Toronto as training wheels & if another team comes along , then you can leave.

      So much for the Toronto mdia saying that Farrell wouldn’t go to Boston because they dumped Francona & spread rumors about hispersonal life.

      This team should fire Ace & bring in Mickey mouse as a new mascot.

      AA is like a kid that got pushed around by a bully.

      He loses respect big time for this.

      I don’t care if Robbie Alomar play 2B in 2013.

      Why is Sandy Alomar the new savior??

      AA’s exhaustive search for Farrell has blown up in his face.

      • no lateral moves! only steps backwards: like trading for an inferior 2b…due for a pay bump…when guys like jamey carroll were available last year on the FA market.

      • Word baby. That is it in a nutshell.

        Everyone else who thinks otherwise can go fuck their hat.

        Ace is next. We are looking like a Circus Sideshow organization right now. Despicable.

    • In regards to your first paragraph, i’m with you. I really only think Farrell should have only been let go if there was a significant return.

      You’re right, it’s impossible to quantify how a manager effects a team, especially in the clubhouse where fans aren’t privy to information. So I can’t say for certain that manager A or B isn’t worth such and such.

      On the other hand, managers barely effect the outcome of a contest and my favorite anecdotal evidence is that practically every team’s fanbase hates their manager.

  57. Rany Jazayerli ‏@jazayerli

    Not that Mike Aviles is a star, but the Red Sox gave up more to get John Farrell than they got for Theo Epstein. They’re doing it wrong.

    • As I tweeted back to him, not necessarily when you factor in the player going back with Farrell, especially if it’s Lind.

      • In what bizarro world are posters living in which Adam Lind is considered a valuable asset and losing him and his salary is anything but a positive thing?

  58. Over the next few days, the remarkably articulate Farrell, with his presidential PR stature, is going to become a media darling in Boston and among the national baseball media in general, particularly coming right after the perpetual PR disaster and overall incredibly inarticulate buffoon that was Bobby Valentine. Should be interesting to see how that affects a Jays fan base and local media contingent that at first blush appears to be a victim of their own unfounded expectations.

    • By July, people will have forgotten 2012 and the only thing that will matter is their W/L column. If Farrell doesn’t at least demonstrate progress, the fans in Boston be calling for Cherington’s head.

  59. Wait, Aviles can’t possibly be going in as the starting 2B… right?!?! The moment I heard his name I thought “oh, an upgrade to Vizquel at bench IF… whatever.”

    If he’s playing every day, god fucking damn.

  60. Like it! I think Sandy Alomar, Jr would be a better manager. Any compensation is a plus.

    • I hate the whole affair but I could be happy with Alomar. Catchers as managers seem to do well.

      Of course it’s the players that are ultimately going to make or break the team. That’s why I think the hate for Farrell this season was generally misguided.

  61. This thread is hilarious. We just traded a sub-500 manager who would have left next year anyway. The jays got a roster player and somehow managed to trick someone to take Lind. I’ve missed something. Is Farrell Joe Torre all of a sudden?

    • Only that people’s feelings are hurt because he’s going back to Bawston.

    • “the jays got a roster player”

      what significance is this?

    • “Is Farrell Joe Torre all of a sudden?”

      No, but a division rival wanted him desperately where the Blue Jays didn’t need to let him go, giving them all the leverage.

      • Clearly the tension between AA and Farrell was true (if everything else in the rumors was true) so we would’ve taken a big L by keeping him. How is that hard to see that it would’ve been a waste of time .

      • Your lack of understanding of what constitutes leverage is comical.

    • Same pathetic doomsayer reaction after every Jays transaction. Irrational retards that think the rules of supply and demand shouldn’t apply to the team they cheer for and any GM that doesn’t perform magic tricks is terrible at his job.

      We dumped a lame duck manager who would have been fired in the middle of next season if the team started out slow and we got back an asset that fills a hole, no matter how inconsequential that hole appears. If we dumped the salary of a terrible 1b all the better, not only do we get the cash, we get to watch a division rival waste 100ABs on him before they come to the same conclusion that every rationale blue jay fan has come to over the last 3 years, Lind is not an MLB capable bat.

      • idiot. everyone went ballistic for morrow-league; escobar and rasmus…this is a shit deal. it looks pathetic on this team. that’s why people are pissed.

        • Clearly you haven’t been following the narrative for the last 16 months, its been a long time since you morons weren’t shitting on AA in the absence of your own grip on reality.

          • 12 months of non-spending, non-moves…all i’ve seen is the streets downtown fill up with people wearing the team’s new shit. and something like a 4K people per game jump in attendance.

          • And the Leafs sell out every game. There’s no correlation between fan stupidity and their willingness to attend games.

          • fuck hockey. i don’t even like the sport, so i’m happy to watch those greedy idiots suicide their sport in america. (at least south of philly).

      • As Carbuncle said, you’re an idiot.

        Toronto was in a seller’s market and gave up the sale for crap. They had the opportunity to seriously compromise Boston’s chances for years and they blew it.

        Giving up Lind’s contract may seem to even out everything, but Lind was considerably improved since his return from Vegas, and if he continues that in Boston they end up winning and Toronto loses. Even if he doesn’t improve, the compensation for Farrell still doesn’t even out the trade – they should have received something from Boston which ensures that the BoSox don’t win anything more this decade.

    • Mike Aviles for a sub-500 manager? I would take that any day of the week.

      The Jays were heading into the 2013 with Mike McCoy as the super UT infielder. I would rather have Aviles play that role.

      Now mind you, if Aviles is the starting fucking second baseman, or ever worse, the starting fucking short stop, then I would be pissed.

      But Aviles as a bench player? No issue with that at all.

      As for Lind going to Boston? Well, AA better have something up his fucking sleeve.

      • + 1 Balls ….Logic dictates that 2 guys to Boston for Aviles is just wrong… especially if there’s a few asst coaches included.
        I havent ruled out AA flipping Aviles either. He loves to do that and could very well have something else cooking with a 3rd party.

  62. I don’t know what to think

  63. Ugh. Replacement level SS is not what I had in mind at all. And while Lind has worn out his welcome in TO, he’s still more of an asset if you consider platoon splits. This looks awful to me, if true, and especially if any Toronto staff are following Farrell to Boston.

  64. If Lind is going it bothers me for another reason because the only logic I see in moving Lind is a salary dump. If they are that desperate to clear $5 million in salary then it doesn’t lead me to believe they are prepared to spend $30 million or so over their 2012 payroll that I figured they would need to get pitching they needed and to fill the other holes.

    • I actually don’t mind losing Lind and giving him to the Sox because it says there might be a bigger opening for Ortiz coming here. Where I balk is at the idea of the Jays giving up both their manager and the better player in the deal.

      • We didn’t give up Bobby Cox. It’s amazing how an articulate white man can make you fall in love with him even as he sits by and watches his team run into out after out after out. We were poorly a coached team this year irrespective of who was on the field.

        • The poor coaching seems to be an organizational problem if you ask me. Prospects shouldn’t be arriving in at the Major League level with flawed fundamentals.

        • No one really cares how good Farrell was. You have to think of him like you would of any single player. If another team really really wants that player you need to drive up the price for him. If they don’t, he’s on your roster until you decide otherwise. The jays held the better cards and still flinched. They could have kept Farrell till the Sox hired someone, then fired him if they truly didnt want him. I think that AA and co think they are running an organization that values people more.

          They have to ask themselves if ever, in a million years would the Yankees let the Sox court, then ask for their manager and possibly some of the coaching staff, and accept Mike Aviles for him, then give up a more valuable player. They wouldn’t. That’s why the jays are where they are, and the yanks are where they are. They laid down like dogs here.

          • Couldn’t agree more Jim!

          • +20.

            I don’t see how ayone can take AA seriously anymore as a negotiator.

            I can’t wait for the press conference to see him explain what happened.

            What changed between the last day of the season where AA said he thought Farrell would be back & now.??

      • I really don’t know see Ortiz coming here but then again what do I know? I really didn’t think the Jays would have aided Boston like this either.

      • Can’t really see how Lind is the better player here. Offensively he’s been no better since his big season. Defensively he’s a 1b so enough said there. Aviles is a lot cheaper and a lot healthier.

        For everyone saying we could have just picked up Carroll. Aviles is going to come about $2 million cheaper and is a better player.

        $2 million saved there, $5 million saved on Lind, $5 million more likely saved by having Lincoln/Delabar/Santos instead of digging for FA relievers….. Bump up the payroll by $10 mill or so and suddenly you’re shoppIng for two FA starters with $22 million dollars available.

    • AA talking about the rangers last year was such a fucking joke. you don’t fucking try to model your organization against an organization that basically won a once in a generation trade (tiexiera) that gave them half their rotation and one of the best SS in the league…all under control and cheap for 7 years. it’s like saying you’re going to model life on the assumption you’re going to win the lottery, and then you’ll go about building that house for your family.

      same old shit.

      • Jon Daniels has done a pretty good job other then just the trade. Sure he fleeced the Braves but the Hamilton trade was good, Profar and Olt are coming up the ranks.

        • no doubt. the point is that there are lots of organizations that SPEND constantly as a model for success who do the same things. instead, he points to a team that doesn’t spend until they win…to buy himself time…to buy his company time…which is to say: to buy his company fans’ money without spending like a contender.

  65. I guess d’Arnaud is probably the most likely candidate for DH right now if Lind is the guy that’s on his way out.

  66. Folks, we weren’t ever getting Pedroia or Ellsbury. So people are pissed now because of unrealistic expectations. I would have let Farrell go for nothing. Hell, I consider dumping Lind a win. Farrell was nothing special. Let’s see how he likes the spotlight in Boston.

    Onwards and upwards.

    • Honestly, half the site spent the season calling for Farrell’s head and now they complain that they didn’t get a major haul for him. The sox didn’t spend the week interviewing other candidates because they were bored, they did it because they know that the difference between Farrell and any other choice they made was inconsequential. Any belief that the jays had leverage here is laughable. The sox are going to take a much bigger hit giving up something valuable than they are for hiring one of the other qualified managers over Farrell.

    • Ok. Farrell blows. So what. So would the Yankees allow this to happen?

      • The Yankees would have fired his ass the day after a season like this one ended and wouldn’t have given two shits if he went to Boston or anywhere else.

        • This is salient commentary.
          He should have been fired the day he didnt bench Lawrie after he tried going from second to third on a groundball hit right at the shortstop – possibly in Cleveland.

      • The Yankees would do whatever is in the best interest of their club without giving a shit about perception, media narrative, or the bitching of bleacher-bound general managers.

  67. If Lind returns to 2009 form in Boston, I will stop watching baseball entirely and take up darts as my sport of choice.

  68. Just out of habit, Farrell called to the bullpen for Cordero on his way out of town.

  69. I’m sure Farrell will run Boston out of innings.

  70. Well now that is finished we who is the next Japanese phenom to bid on.

    • Some 18 yr old tossing 99-100 with ease. Ya we aren’t getting him. Apparently, we aren’t even interested. Oh, no posting fee either

  71. If you take Lind’s money out of 2013′s payroll you’re looking at roughly $69 million committed for 19 players if you count Oliver and Davis’ options for 2013. I counted Lawrie, Arencibia, Alvarez and Delabar as those making 500k next year. Rasmus and Happ got 10% bumps for their arb year.

    If the Jays boosted payroll to $100 million (not nearly enough imo) you’re looking at $31 million to fill the remaining spots. I was thinking they’d need a minimum of $110 million but closer to $120 million if they really wanted to make a splash.

    People have been talking a lot about Haren, Peavy and Ortiz. You’re looking at $15.5 million for Haren (2013 option), $22 million for Peavy (2013 option) and Ortiz at least the same as 2012 – $14.6 million for a total of $52.1 million. In addition you’d have to give up prospects or players for Haren and Peavy.

    How many here are seeing the Jays payroll north of $110 million for 2013?

    • I’m thinking along the lines of say:

      Ortiz for around $15 million lets say.
      A trade Brett Anderson (trading Escobar, which would make it salary neutral).
      Signing of say a Shaun Marcum or Edwin Jackson type at $8ish million a season.

      Then you still have space to trade for another starter and keep with in this supposed $30 million limit.

      • escobar is a good player. he only ‘shows up’ when he wants to, though.

        • I like Escobar a lot.

          But you need to trade talent to get talent. If you don’t get good value for Escobar, keep him, because if you trade him you need to pickup another middle-infielder (cause Avila isn’t starting).

      • You’ll never get Jackson and Marcum that cheap. Just not going to happen. Anderson is making $5.75 million so you’re taking on a tad more but definitely a cheaper alternative to someone like Peavy.

        Also pretty sure the Jays would never give Ortiz more than Bautista per year. Normally I don’t buy that bunk about the Jays never paying a player more than Bautista but I just can’t see them doing it for a 37 year old DH coming off a major injury. I do love the idea of him hitting between Jose and EE but I’d be shocked if he goes. Boston really can’t afford to let him leave after trading away Youk, Gonzalez and Crawford. They have plenty of holes of their own to fill.

        • Edwin Jackson signed for $11 million on a one year deal.

          On a multi-year deal, that will be brought down, and coming off the worse year he has had in 4 seasons, would bring it down lower. Probably in the $8.5-9 million range on a 3 year deal. Same would go with Marcum, who is coming off an injured season.

          Trying to find a comparable is tough, but Aaron Harang signed for a 2-year $12 million deal coming off a real good season with the Padres while Chris Capuano got 2-years $10 million. Both Marcum and Jackson are better, and would demand more money and years, but I don’t think it would take a shit load.

          I think the Jays would be fine paying a player more than Jose on a short-term deal, and I don’t think Jose would mine, especially if the player is a good pal of his. I just think Ortiz may be frustrated with the Boston media, and he is for sure frustrated with management and ownership after them only giving him one year deals after one year deals. He even went to the media saying so this season.

          Ortiz may finally be fed up with Boston, and at least test the market. Plus with Lind there now, Boston may let him walk, and let Lind just DH (unlikely). But of Toronto offers him a two year deal, he may want to come here. He does have great relationships with guys like Bautista and Romero, and he would know how great he would look between Jose and EE. Plus the whole Spanish thing going on up here, especially if Sandy Alomar is the new manager, is an added bonus. And he hits great at the Rogers Centre!

          Without Lind, the Jays just have way more positional flexibility, and have an added $7 million to spend. Ortiz would be ideal to get, and I hope the Jays make a serious run at him.

          • You’re way off on your comps. Harang was 4 years older than Jackson and was coming off a brutal injury filled season in Cincinnati before his current deal.

            Capuano was 3 years older and had similar results also with injuries.

            Jackson could have had a longer term deal but didn’t get the money so he waited. There’s no way he’s going to accept less again. He’d probably just take another one year deal with for similar money. You’re forgetting the basic law of supply and demand. Extra playoff spots, reliable, starting pitching always in demand. Top that off with a highly inflationary environment that’s about to get even more out of hand with all the TV money floating around.

    • I’d be shocked if Rogers got it as high as 100, 110 is a pipedream imho.

  72. Lionheart? The Van Damme classic? I still have the VHS and watch that shit every few months!

  73. The Redsox media is going to be on his ass all the time with all the idiotic moves he makes

    • Yes that will be the only fun part of 2013 watching the red sox media bsh him. It will be fun t see what real tough media do to a manager rather than fawning over he team like they do in Toronto.

  74. I can’t believe there are twits here saying that the Jays could have just demanded a huge random and if it wasn’t met they could just fire Farrell after the Sox hired someone else.

    Ya, that’s definitely the organization you want to be, top-tier players and coaches are dying to join an organization that uses people as bargaining chips before publicly humiliating them and damaging their chance at future employment.

    • much easier to manage that PR. farrell, it seems, wanted out. so chances are fucking him over a bit would have at least made AA look more like Russell Hantz than Harry Palms.

      • No, it would have made them look like pathetic vindictive assholes. That’s not PR, that’s reality. You can spin it all you want, anyone else employed in MLB looks at that decision and sees it as a dick move. Satisfying irrational fans expectations of reality should not come at the cost of running the organization properly.

        • again, what does boston look like with francona? leaking his personal issues to the papers? tell me that isn’t vindictive. AA is a boy playing with the men.

        • Get it right.

          For years I have watched the big market teams like the Yankees and Red Sox use their money to deplete the FA market and have those FAs sit on the bench just so other teams can’t use them. You think the Jays would look like vindictive assholes because they refuse to give into the Sox and give them the manager that they want but the Jays don’t?

          The object of this game is to stop giving into those vindictive Yankee and Red Sox assholes who continue to assume that every other team is not worthy to compete with them on those terms.

          They want to play hardball with contracts? The Jays need to show that they can play the same game in order to gain the same level of fear from those assholes.

          Unfortunately, this deal shows that the Jays will continue to be pussies and act as a farm team for the other teams that play real baseball.

    • I looked at it more from the perspective not helping Boston first and foremost. Lets face it, Alives types can be had for cheap every winter. Why help Boston for something like Aviles? I guess in the end if Lind is the other man, getting rid of his salary was the real bonus for Jays management.

      • yea – let’s see them add a REAL bat this offseason in left, it has to be something that will replace the potential 4WAR johnson could give you from 2b that aviles won’t.

      • Future talent doesn’t give a fuck if we help out Boston or not. They care about themselves and only themselves, and if they see a scenario where they’re choosing a team that publicly treated a respected MLB name like shit, and another team, who do you think they’re going to pick?

        We already deal with the reality of having to overpay FAs to get them to live in a different country, why go ahead and give them more reason not to covet the jays as an employer.

        • people are lining up to go to boston…and they publicized tito francona’s public struggles as they ran him out of town.

          i don’t think people care if the team is good. AA didn’t demonstrate “swagger” in this dealing. he got schooled.

          the tribe has spoken.

          • The organization did nothing to Francona, the media and his own players did.

          • Also, who exactly is “lining up to go to Boston” in the one year since this event you mention took place? Nick Punto? Cody Ross? Last year was one of the biggest FA markets of the last decade and not a single significant name signed there.

          • farrell, obviously – number one. let’s see, because the forums are filled with red sox fans penciling in every FA in the league in as if they’re entitled to them, and it’s a done deal because their management hasn’t been cheap in the past decade.

          • Ya, and those same Sox fans were penciling combinations of Pujols, Fielder, Wilson and Reyes last off-season.

            Farrell is leaving because its a job guarantee, not because its Boston. He would be bolting for any other franchise at this point as long as the Jays weren’t putting a contract extension on the table.

        • The future talent wasn’t a consideration in my post. It’s an organizational consideration because you’re giving a boost to a competitor when you really didn’t have to.

          However, since you mentioned it, I do think it will play up with free agents when all things are equal because the Jays haven’t shown they can win shit of late. Again just how much do people see Rogers spending on the Jays this year?

          • They don’t have to do anything, but “helping out” is a relative term. I think AA is pragmatic to recognize that just because somebody wants something, giving it to them doesn’t mean you’re helping out. Frankly, I believe Boston would be better off with several of the other candidates they interviewed not to mention other names that are still on the market. AA had obviously decided that he wasn’t offering Farrell an extension at this point. I don’t view it as a problem to dump a contract you dont want, and fill a hole you want to fill, however easy that hole is to fill elsewhere.

            Just because Boston, and short-sighted Jays fans, think they got better by adding Farrell doesn’t make it empirically true. 90% of all trades end in both sides claiming victory, so the role of bias and perception needs to be identified and nullified.

    • +1000000000

      We’ve got enough problems getting players here without that.

  75. Who should we be more angry at:

    AA – for going through and “exhaustive” and “time consuming” manager search and hiring a DUD like Farrell? Honestly, if you can’t admit he’s a bust, you’re fooling yourself.


    Farrell, for fooling all of us into thinking that he was committed to managing the Jays when he clearly only wanted to be the manager of the BoSox. And, lets be serious here. Considering what we’ve seen from Farrell (not much) and how Boston treated an upper echelon manager (Francona) – how long do you think John will be managing in Boston (ie 2 years?!?!?!?).

    I just hope AA learned a ton from his first manager search. You can take all the time in the world evaluating managers and still end up with a mediocre guy like Farrell. So just bring in a guy who isn’t going to piss off Jose, Lawrie and Morrow – and not screw up the bullpen and you’ll be fine.

    Here’s the worst part. The Al East is up for grabs in 2013. The Yanks are old and falling apart. Who knows what they’re going to do this offseason. Boston has already fallen apart and they’ve gutted their roster (and hired a clueless manager). There is no way the O’s can repeat 2012 in 2013, right. The Rays will always be an unknown. Essentially, the Jays could compete for the division or WC -but now they’ll have to do it with a new manager and possibly coaching staff. If they don’t make they playoffs this year, than by going what Beaston said, the Jays will make the playoffs 3 times from 2014 to 2016, right????

    Dear John, Fuck You.

    • Farrell would have signed an extension months ago if it was offered. You can fault him for his shitty management, but you can’t fault him for looking out for his future employment when his time here was clearly coming to an end.

    • Well there is no question AA has got some egg on his face after this one. I bet he’ll be the first one to say that too if he stays true to what he’s shown so far.

      I think you’re also discounting the competition in the division quite a bit. Considering all the injuries the Yanks and Sox had last year and their resources you can’t count them out problems or not. As for the Orioles, who knows. A full season of Bundy and Machado plus whatever free agents they can get their hands on. At least they can say they made the playoffs recently and they’re an American team. Does their success in 2012 get them to spend more? Don’t forget everyone is getting $26 million more in revenue in 2014. Do the Rays and Orioles see the same weaknesses as you do in go for it a year early?

    • The yanks are old and falling apart? based on what? a four game series vs detroit with their best player and best pitcher injured? did you not actually watch the entire season? they are one of the best teams in all of baseball and that isn’t going to change any time soon. reality is not something people around here seem to have a grip of.

  76. If Alomar is named manager, I’ll bet Omar Vizquel is on his coaching staff as I’d assume Lovullo goes to Boston with Farrell.

    When Bobby Cox left, I felt bad because Bobby had some success with the Jays. Farrell has not done anything other than finish 4th. If Farrell comes up short in Boston, I won’t be surprised.

    • Good call. Wouldn’t be surprising at all to see Vizquel on a Sandy Alomar coaching staff given that AA apparently kept Vizquel on the roster against the objections of his manager, as well as Sandy Alomar’s long relationship with Vizquel from their 7 seasons together as teammates in Cleveland.

      • I wouldn’t want visquel on a staff after he didn’t do his job as mentor to the Latinos & attacked Farrell towards the last week for not showing leadership.

    • Didn’t really sound like Vizquel endeared himself to JoBau so, there’s that.

  77. I’m not surprised that a player of Aviles worth(or lack there of) was the compensation for Farrell, I’m disapointed that AA didn’t get creative, like including a prospect or two to get a ML calibre arm.

    • Why did the Greek hire someone whom we were all well aware of that had his heart in Boston?

      We knew the first couple of years were going to be painful. I believe Farrell left because of promises and talk that were not kept by AA.

      What a sinking Titanic of shit.

      • The sky is falling, the sky is falling….

        Farrell didn’t work out, 2012 didn’t work out, fielding a healthy team didn’t work out, but don’t condemn the entire organization and the rebuild process based on this transaction. AA has the winter to fill the holes, to show that he meant it when he said there would be a significant increase in payroll.

        We still have the number 3 ranked farm system in baseball, we still have 2 of the best homerun hitters in the game, we have a new triple A franchise, there is plenty to still remain hopeful for.

        Take a drink kid.

        Give Alphabet the winter, if he doesn’t make good on his promises then I’ll join you on the ledge.

      • +1. It’s hilarious that Blair & the rest of the Toronto media were saying last week that Farrell & Francona were personal friends, so Farrell wouldn’ take the job in Boston after the way the red sox trated him, .

        I guess Farrell isn’t too upset to take the job.

        At some point it may come out that Farrell wanted starting pitching in 2012 & AA couldn’t deliver.

        Remember when Farrell said in a somewhat exasperated tone that what he wanted for 2013 was the SAME THING as 2012.

  78. I think we could all look back on this move a few months from now and come to the conclusion that AA pulled another ninja move here. I’m assuming AA was planning on getting a real DH anyways so if Adam Lind is in fact included in this trade, AA just freed up some payroll to use elsewhere. In addition, AA just picked up a player, Aviles, that gives the Jays depth up the middle. I would expect Hech to start the year in Buffalo but if he performs well, it allows AA to use Aviles or Escobar as trade bait at the deadline. An Escobar + Arencibia + Prospect deal could net us a pretty decent starting pitcher I think. On top of all of that, if AA wasn’t planning on keeping Farrel around long term anyways, then letting him go now as opposed to next year allows AA to pick from the list of qualified potential managers, some of whom may not be available next year. Maybe there is a specific replacement that AA has in mind that may not still be available next off-season (I’m thinking Alomar).

    I guess the point is that we don’t know what AA’s plans are yet so we can’t judge this deal. If Lind is included and the money saved isn’t re-invested into the club, then obviously that would be disappointing. If AA thinks that Farrel (and anyone else he takes with him) was a better option than the potential managers that are available, then obviously that would suck to have to give up the better manager. If AA doesn’t plan to trade some of our middle infield depth in order to address an area of need, then we’re stuck with just an average player.

    Bottom line is that we don’t know yet… but if I were to guess, I’d say AA probably made this trade, not for the players involved, but for the options it gives him going forward (payroll, trade bait, etc).

  79. If the Jays gave up Farrell – who didn’t want to be here anyway (and didn’t really impress anyone while he was here) for Aviles (or anyone with a pulse)….with the possibility to get Alomar Jr AND get rid of Lind = WIN

    This team needs a fresh start – Farrell obviously wasn’t the answer – to the point that he became part of the problem…good riddance and have fun in Boston

    • On the money. When Farrell doesn’t produce a 162-0 season next year I’m sure Boston fans will be shocked. The Sox problems went way beyond the manager. Their roster needs an overhaul and this years free agent crop is thin. Another poor finish by the Sox is in the cards.

  80. I don’t really care one way or the other about this deal as long as they don’t try to pencil Aviles in as the starting second baseman and they get a real DH/first baseman. Lind isn’t good but atleast he could have been a decentish platoon option.

  81. Aviles? Wow…

    • You guys are all fucked.

      Do you really think that a team can gel that easily after ripping its coaching staff apart , while imploding team morale and dignity for payroll and a 2nd baseman?

      Where the fuck is our dignity and loyalty as fans if people are really that expendable during rough times?

      I’m embarrassed. See me next time into the 300s with a bag on my head.

  82. This deal is crap!

    Giving up Farrell and Lind to get Aviles is nothing more than giving into Boston. Sure getting rid of Lind’s contract may be a good idea, but giving into Boston is wrong. The Jays should have been playing hardball with the Bosox. If the Sox were so intent on getting Farrell then the Jays should have held out for some compensation which could potentially cripple the Sox. If the Sox were unwilling to deal on that level, and the Jays weren’t happy with Farrell, then the Jays should have waited out the Sox until they got a new manager and then let Farrell loose. Anyway you look at it, the Jays have lost out to the BSox again, and they did it to themselves.

    • Yup, getting nothing out of this situation by screwing over Boston because you have penis-envy is definitely whats in the best interest of the franchise.

      • You miss the point. You can’t beat the Yankees and BoSox by outspending them in the FA market, you can’t beat them in the trading market, and you can’t beat them in the scouting market until you start adopting the same tactics that they do.

        The BoSox have been tampering with Farrell’s contract since last year. They have done that through the Boston press. If you don’t see that you are blind. I just advocate that we give them some of their own medicine. I don’t have penis-envy over Boston – they deserve everything they get. If it means that Toronto can pile on their misery so much the better. If Farrell performs as badly for them as for Toronto, so much the better, but Toronto should have taken advantage of them while the opportunity presented itself.

        Don’t get me wrong, I believe that Boston has screwed Toronto with this deal.

      • This is a fight with another divisional rival, not a sausage party. Fucking Boston is in the best interest of the franchise/

    • +10.

      AA’s reputationa as a ninja took a big karate chop.

      Why couldn’t the Jays get pitching help even prospects?

      Are theJays so hyped about trading away Escobar over the eye patch??

      That would be foolish.

      Lind would have been a useful platoon DH or power bat off the bench.

      Escobar is better than Aviles & I would say that a healthy Kelly Johnson is better than Aviles.

  83. Aviles 2008 – 4.4 WAR, 2009 – -0.9 WAR (only 36 games), 2010 – 1.7 WAR, 2011 – 0.3 WAR, 2012 – 1.8 WAR

    Certainly not a superstar, but he is definitely more than just a replacement level player. In a perfect world he is their backup utility infielder, but if he is a 2 WAR player over a full season that is essentially a major league average player which isn’t the worst return for a manager. If they were planning on firing him anyway then that’s a pretty solid return.

    • If he’s the starting second baseman next year those war number won’t look as good, and given there’s still Escobar and Hechavarria for shortstop I doubt he starts at ss. Honestly I think he’s good to have as a back up infielder I just worry the Jays make him the starting second baseman with Escobar or Hechavarria at short. There’s not many options for second out there so I wouldn’t be very surprised if they start Aviles there and with an impotent (offensively speaking) ss and second baseman the Jays would really need to bring another bat in, I’m just not sure if they’ll be able to.

  84. I like this deal. Farrell was OK. If they Jays were not sold on him as the manager to take them to the playoffs they probably weren’t going to extend him. Next year then would’ve been a waste year knowing Farrell was gone. Getting something when you were virtually going to get nothing at the end of 2013 is much better. In addition to that Jays get to try again and find a new manager who can lead them. Sandy Alomar/Sal Fas? Wouldn’t mind seeing someone new.

    I don’t understand why so many people seem upset. Yes he was a desired commodity, but history has shown managers for players trades don’t usually yield good returns. I can’t see how this would ruin the Jays/AA’s “image”.

    • People are only upset because its Boston and they over value both Farrell and the stupid old school media narrative that you don’t trade within the division.

      If we’d been dealing with the White Sox it would be nothing but people saying we got ‘something for nothing’

      At the end of the day, people are pissed because Boston wanted a mediocre manager and the Jays allowed them to have that.

  85. Look, if you can get an ok mlb player for a manager its not a bad deal. However, how do you go from demanding clay bucholz to accepting mike avilies? The jays didnt have to take him and should have demanded more. If the red sox woudnt meet the asking price, keep farrell. The jays held the power and dont let wilner and davidi spin it like the jays werent in a position of strenth. Davidi was the one that said the jays would have to be bowled over to move farrell. Is mike aviles that? Not at all. Also, Aviles and Lind are basically a wash as hitters at this point. So why are the jays giving them just as good of a hitter back and taking our manager? Is $5 million that much in salary for rogers?

    • To be honest, i really though de la rosa was a realistic possibility but i guess not. Im just disappointed its aviles and not him

    • @afdg. Very true.

      You know its bad when Wilner called the deal a salary dump for the Jays.

      The Jays had all the power in this deal & blew it.

      Lind isn’t that great of a player , but I wonder who will be the new DH? It won’t be Ortiz.

  86. A manager (with potential coaching staff, which will likely be worked out in the next couple days) plus maybe a lefty platoon guy (who might do well in the joke park that is Fenway) for a backup infielder? Ugh.

    A lot of the arguing over the details is really just noise – at least this situation is just fucking over with.

    The optics suck incredibly for the Jays and they’ll need to move fast to correct it. And I still don’t like helping the Red Sox get their house in order – there was a benefit to keeping the Boston media screaming for blood from the team.

    The Jays better have a good off-season.

  87. Seriously, if this deal has Lind going to the Red Sox than realistically, this deal is all about him. Lind was on waivers earlier this year and no one wanted him. AA saw a chance to dump a bad contract, and he rolled the dice. Honestly, does anyone thin Farrell is irreplaceable?

    First dumping Wells, then dumping Lind is genius. Too bad the dumping of Hill didn’t work out so well….

    • Bada-bing!

    • Yeah thank God Rogers’ got that 5 million dollar albatross of a contract off the books. Now they can move forward.

      • +1. If the Jays are so desperate to dump Lind’s contract to save $5 million then AA’s budget for 2013 won’t be as high as he brags about.

        Red Sox nation must be very happy today.

        • if i’m a boston fan i’m pissed… we take on $7M for a guy who hasn’t deserved a roster spot since 2009… give up a useful utility guy… for a manager who talks a good game but has looked completely overmatched more often than not.

          • Boston needs to stay under the luxury tax threshold. This hurts them. Toronto has some amount they are willing to spend. This gives them an extra $7m to do so. It’s not cost, it’s opportunity cost.

      • yeah, if $5 mil seems like a ton of money for Lind then we might never win a world series with Rogers as the owner.

  88. Two years ago I bought a car owned by the mother of my neighbour. I have another year before the warranty runs out on it. My neighbour says he would really like to buy it because it belonged to his mother and he is willing to pay an above market price for it.

    I agree to sell it to him for the price he is willing to pay, and I will throw in the snow tires I have bought for it as long as he is willing to pay off the money owing on the tires.

    Who is the winner in this deal?

    • You forgot to mention that you live in Florida so the snow tires are useless, you’ll also be getting a new timex watch from your friend and that you’ve got a list of people waiting to sell you equal or better cars tomorrow.

      Probably a good deal for you since you don’t hold an irrational desire to screw over your friend because he’s in a different income class than you.

      Also, your car keeps letting Francisco Cordero out of the trunk even though you keep trying to lock him in.

      • Plus, the car is a whore that’s willing to let any grease monkey under it’s hood if the price is right.

      • Remember, this is a business deal.

        First of all, he’s not a friend, he’s my neighbour. I don’t live in Florida, I live in Toronto. I’m not getting a new timex, it’s a used timex and it doesn’t keep very good time. I may have some prospects on a new car or not but I’m not going to tell you. My neighbour is rich, so I do hold an irrational desire to screw him over. And finally, I’m not going to tell my neighbour that there is a trunk monkey. What now?

        • Now you get some therapy and learn that getting paid for a material object that you have little to no attachment to is a bonus and that your deep seeded class issues are going to keep you from ever making logical and self serving decisions.

  89. if you fucked the mother then you are the winner.

  90. The only way this isn’t crap is if Farrell asked to leave.

    In which case it’s still crap, but at least it’s understandable.

    • if Farrell didn’t ask to leave then why let him go to Boston, unless this gave AA a way to get rid of him if he didn’t want him back.

  91. It’s done and I’m happy.

    Farrell wanted out so let him go. The idea by some that we should have held out for the moon to spite the Red Sox then fired Farrell is ludicrous. Sure, go ahead and do that if you want to see your franchise’s name reduced to mud with the broader baseball fraternity of players, coaches, etc.

    No, instead we took the high road. And in exchange we get a useful major-league player in Aviles, we free ourselves of an expensive, underperformer in Lind; and maybe best of all we neatly part ways with a manager who’s performance has been less than stellar.

    Sure, we may lose some coaches as collateral damage, but that goes with the territory when you change managers. And frankly, who’s to say that some fresh coaching perspectives aren’t exactly needed to help fix some of the bonehead and/or underperforming play we witnessed this year. Not trying to pin this on the coaching, but sometimes you need to change the faces to see if you can’t better get the message across.

    Yes, people will particularly bemoan the loss of Butterfield if he’s going. But hey, you also have to think of what’s in these guys best interests too. If he’s going to get passed over again for the manager’s chair, then he really ought to look elsewhere and I’d be happy for him if this gets him back to his native New England.

    So with Farrell gone and the coaching situation not to resolve itself until we have a manager, can we shift gears and now start playing Managerial Roulette Sweepstakes now? That’s always good for shits and giggles.

    • A couple of things Jab.

      My idea is not to fire Farrell to spite the Sox. Allow him to complete the final year of his contract. If he isn’t working out you can fire him midway through the season and spite the RedSox (who would be reluctant to hire a failed manager over their replacement). If he does perform well then so much the better – he finishes his contract and you offer him an extension – and rub it in the RdSox noses. That forces the Sox into the position that they now fire their ‘New’ manager to hire Farrell (if he refuses your extension).

      Next, we’ve gotten a questionable player for a questionable player. Sure, we’ve gotten rid of Lind’s contract, but was it really that bad? And that leaves open what compensation did we really receive for Farrell?

      Finally, I agree with you about the coaching changes. Some of them may be good – I think that changes to the pitching and hitting can be positive. The loss of Butterfield could be very significant. Is he good enough to be the new manager or would he stay on with a new one? Personally I think that he deserves to be a manager, but not with the Jays. Will he stay on if Sandy Alomar is the manager? Big questions, lots of turmoil. Stay Tuned.

  92. The new market inefficiency: hire coaches and then trade them for serviceable major league players.

    This is clearly a steal. Semi-super-utility infielder for a dude who cost more games than he earned. I’m happy to send Farrell away. He seemed nice enough but for an ex-pitcher he sure couldn’t manage a bullpen. Everyone always said how smart he was but I’m not sure how someone with half a brain could make some of the decisions he made. As a retired pitcher.

    We wrote it off as ‘learning on the job’, but then I realized that all the fuckers whining that we didn’t get enough were actually smart enough last year to understand splits and he wasn’t. As a pitcher.

  93. Can’t understand why anyone cares. A player for a manager? Steal. The idoiots who are made cause we didnt get pedroia are hilarious.

  94. Hey,

    Look at this way.

    If you want to be a nice guy and have everybody like you, what you do is this – allow Boston to deal with Farrelll so that they reach an agreement. Then agree with Boston as to what would be reasonable compensation for Farrell. And then throw in something which gets rid of a problem for you so that they don’t feel so bad.

    Please tell me that that isn’t what happened and I will agree that this was a good deal.

  95. I think the most important thing is that it’s over and the jays can move forward. This was a huge fucking distraction that AA wouldn’t want. Linds back is fucked too so don’t think he can play regularly even as a DH.

    This is a win for Boston but that doesn’t mean the Jays lost.

    • Hate to say it Ed, but since they are in the same division, any Red Sox win is a loss for the Jays.

    • Nah, there’s no win-win deals in the same division Ed, it has to be true because baseball’s talking heads and media have been saying it forever.

      We’re better off getting nothing and eating Lind’s contract than give the Sox a manager who’s impact on any game will be almost identically negligible as Ausmus would be.

    • Its in no way a win for Boston. Farrell is not a good manager. Lind is shit, injury prone, inconsistant. Aviles is a solid back up infielder on a good team. Theres nothing wrong with this from the Jays perspective. Boston just traded a player for a manager and they look ridiculous. ITs not like they traded for Jim Leyland., they traded for a guy who if he was unsigned and Boston didnt want him, probably wouldnt be getting a job.

  96. If adam lind is gone in this deal, I am happy beyond belief.

    • I’m a tad worried he Aaron Hills us, which would really suck. Aaron Hilling the Jays from the desert doesn’t hurt all that much. Aaron Hilling the Jays from deep in the dirty Masshole territory would really suck.

  97. btw who knows if we got Aviles to trade for someone else…i still think we should go for Scutaro this off season *shrugs*

  98. Lots of bullshit anger here.

    Sure it “looks” bad losing your manager to a division rival… But is it really? Are you so sure that Alomar Jr. (or whoever) is going to be worse than Farrell? I’m sure as hell not.

    The Jays MAY have just shed Lind’s salary, picked up a decent depth infielder AND upgraded their coaching staff. And when the details are finalized you may see an OK prospect in there as well.

    People are always saying how much harder it is to sign FAs in Toronto because it’s not in the US. For non-US born players I bet this is much less of an issue. With Alomar in charge, the Jays probably become a better destination for international players.

    Farrell didn’t show enough for anyone to really be upset about this… Unless your concerned about how it looks…. Which no one really should be.

  99. Let me preface this by saying that getting someone like Aviles is a pretty good return for a manager, even if I think/hoped they could have received more.

    That being said….

    “Only” getting Aviles is going to be a PR nightmare for the Jays among the casual fan. To those sitting on the periphery in ‘wait and see’ mode, Aviles is “who?” and when they take a cursory glance at they’ll see a guy who hit .250 last year. They will likely view this as Toronto being bullied by the Red Sox, and assuming their place as an also-ran in the division. Same old, same old to many.

    If we see an exodus of coaches to Boston? Look out.

    Heck, you’re seeing that here among fans that aren’t ‘casual’. Not saying it’s right, but that’s what I see happening.

  100. Two reasons why I don’t like this trade:

    1. I was hoping for a solid prospect – not great by any stretch – rather than a middle infielder who could be replaced in any off-season.. just like this one.*

    2. I fucking hate Mile Aviles. I’d rather just punch him in the face and move on.

    *If we end up dumping Adam Lind and his contract in the process, then I’m ok with step 1.

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