Warning: apc_store(): Potential cache slam averted for key 'w3tc_blogs.thescore.com_object_bd03d6a483e0f8f6247de1d771a2d2bb' in /opt/blogs/wp-content/plugins/w3-total-cache/lib/W3/Cache/Apc.php on line 41 Buffery Pulls Into the Lead #FarrellStupidityDerby | Drunk Jays Fans | Blogs | theScore.com

I don’t want to write a full on This Week in Morons post about this, because there are still a lot of words out there to be digested on the Jays, their ex-manager, and their search for a new one, plus, I entirely understand that it’s the Toronto Sun’s job to be petty little trolls. Very obviously it’s part of their business model to rile up the masses, to get people talking, and perhaps even to get folks like me to start linking back to them all over the place going, “look at this steaming pile of shit in the Sun!”

Yet, knowing full well that I may be falling into that trap, um… look at this steaming pile of shit in the Sun!

They’ve conveniently changed the title now to “John Farrell’s disloyalty to Blue Jays shines through,” but you can see from the URL the original: “Farrell just a blowhard.”

The gist of it, as far as I can tell, is Steve Buffery’s assertion that “Farrell used the Jays as a stepping stone, and he stepped all over them.”

He explains:

Anthopoulos awarded Farrell, the former Red Sox pitching coach, his first big-league manager gig two years ago — and Farrell turned around a year later and dropped the bombshell that, yes, if the possibility came up, he would like to get out of Dodge and move to Boston.

He did it after his first year in Toronto, and again after his second — a stunning lack of loyalty towards an organization that gave him his big break.

. . .

Convince me that this isn’t a kick in the teeth: Farrell informed his bosses at the end of each year in Toronto that he wanted to go somewhere else — but if that can’t be arranged, of course, he wants to keep his gig with the Blue Jays.

Disloyal? You think so? How about arrogant?

Um… how about honest, Steve? And how about, rather than characterizing Farrell as being a sleazy user looking to only stay in Toronto for as long as he needs until a better option comes along, you explain the situation for what it is?

There is nothing to suggest there was any extenuating circumstance but one in which Farrell would have felt he needed to explore leaving the job he’d set out to do with the Jays. It’s near impossible to envision him not being entirely genuine in his commitment from the start, or worried about all of his connections in Massholia and former heir-apparent status in Boston, given that the Red Sox in 2011 looked like a powerhouse– and played like it for five months– and Terry Francona looked certain to be their manager for as long as he wanted.

Farrell didn’t “drop a bombshell” by turning around a year into the deal saying he’d like to move to Boston “if the possibility came up,” because by then the possibility had already arisen. Shit, Farrell even soldiered on with the Jays through 2012, having watched this “dream job” of his go to Bobby Valentine– not a manager lacking in esteem at the time, who we now see was obviously the wrong choice, but who very easily could have taken the ball and run with it.

Say what you will about the choice that Anthopoulos and Beeston made not to let him go– and I don’t think it’s unfair to wonder if seeing the possibility of the opportunity arise again late this summer impacted Farrell’s ability to do the job here (or if you really want to get conspiratorial, saw him start to intentionally neglect his duties)– but I have a hard time skewering him for not wanting to see this job pass him over for a second time. Especially since he’s looking at one lame duck year remaining on his Jays deal, compared to multiple, better-paid, guaranteed years in Boston.

Forgive me, but I guess I’m just not as loyal as Steve fucking Buffery, who I’m sure would stick it out in the trenches with the Toronto Sun if, say, ESPN came a-calling– after all, they gave him his big break!

I know a lot of people want to be really fucking angry about this situation, and give themselves away to the catharsis of self loathing, pissing and moaning about how small time the Jays supposedly look, and how they must therefore look by extension. And I understand that the Sun, and the talk radio hosts, and– as Drew said the other day– the tourist columnists want to tap into the power of that loathing, and wring from it all that they possibly can. But none of that is an excuse to cease being basically fucking reasonable.

Comments (187)

  1. Did you say morons?

  2. Buffery has long been a moron. Even in a paper that employs Simmons and Lankhoff, and if you know anything about the world outside of sports, one of the most idiotic people in the world not called Anne Coulter or Donald Trump, Lorrie Goldstein. Even amongst this kind of competition, Buffery still stands out and that is a tribute to his idiocy that deserves some kind of award.

  3. I said this the other day, but there were 7000 other comments so it might be worth saying again: I havn’t seen so many people bitch about something so insignificant since the whole Leaf’s goaltending coach controversy. For those of you who don’t live in reality here is some news: people capable of ascending to professional sports coach/manager/ etc. are nearly interchangable. The actual value difference between the best porfessional hitting coach/goalie coach/manager and the worst is marginal at best. IN fact, if you had the best coach in the world for 5 years and replaced him with the worst, the actual process of changing and the surrounding psychological boost that goes with it probably has more value than having the best coach did and that is consider how short term that boost is. This is not to say that I could coach the MLB just that those capable of getting there are interchangable. In my opinion paying a player for a manager is ridiculous and the Jays should be lauded for extracting value from an unusual source.

    • Basically what you’re saying is that Connie Mack, Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa etc. don’t deserve to be in the HOF because if someone like, oh say, Bobby Valentine could have done the same thing with the same parts??? Well then, any team that has a World Series ready team should fire their manager and hire Buck Martinez.

      • Probably.

        • We disagree again Stoeten.You must think there is no strategy in baseball or maybe in any sport.
          It’s not all automatic.
          We watch the game differently. You seem to see standard plays, I see hundreds of decisions each game,each choice having validity.

          • I like what Richard Griffin said in his chat, at most a good manager wins you 5 wins but a bad manager can lose you 15.

          • No, RADAR, of course there is strategy, but that doesn’t mean that the differences in strategy, over time, aren’t basically marginal. I’m sorry, but at the MLB level, there just isn’t that much difference, and the vast majority in the difference between the results of one team and another is due to talent.

            You don’t watch the game on any kind of higher level, for fuck sakes, you just don’t grasp how narrow the band of difference a manager can make is.

          • PSmith, I think that’s a bit excessive– there surely isn’t a 20 game per year gulf between the best manager and the worst– but it’s the right idea. Their value exists way out on the margins of the club’s talent, and is inextricable from luck– I mean, a manager can make the absolute right decision by any possible metric and gut feeling, yet still not get the desired result.

          • So there is a strategy to the game but it’s marginal?
            I watch the game at a higher level?
            Maybe that’s because I consider all factors in a game not just the sabermetrics.Years ago we discussed this.I consider as many factors as I can,the stats, the strategy,the choices etc.
            You need to open your mind to all the posibilities, and again, you’re missing a beautiful game.
            It’s you, that can’t grasp the WIDE band of difference a manager can make.
            For now we’ll agree to disagree.

          • RADAR, you and I seem to be of the same mindset. I thought I knew a lot about the game until I coached. Then I discovered myriad strategic decisions that must be made within each game-more than I thought. I learned so much more by coaching than I thought possible.It’s chess, not checkers.

            That said, I understand there are perhaps differences at the Major League level, however it does not explain why some managers are consistently successful (LaRussa, Anderson, Martin, Leyland etc), while others are not.

          • @ Garcia

            Thanks.It’s a simple game.Throw the ball, hit the ball, catch the ball.Then it gets complicated.And trust me, the higher level you go the more complex the decisions. I NEVER stop learning about it. I’ve listened to managers and high level players talk. I dumbfounded and amazed at what they have to say.
            The difference at the Major league level is that we see a runner at first and second with none out and see 5 different tactics to use. Some major league managers will see 10, others will see 25 or more,depending on various factors ( including stats).
            I’m trying to keep it a simple analogy.

            Enjoy coaching, it’s extremely gratifying.When the players graduate to higher levels don’t be afraid to grow with them or to pass them along to those with more knowledge.
            If you get a chance to speak to a NCAA ,drafted player or a major leaguer,do so. It’s incredibly interesting to hear their experiences and stories.
            Totally different perspective.
            Sorry for rambling, you’re bringing back memories.
            LOL

      • That is exactly what I am saying. 99% of being a “hall of fame” manager or coach is being in the right situation at the right time. Same goes with players. There are thousands of NFL players who have won more super bowls than Dan Marino, but are they all better than him? Of course not.

    • This is bs. Athletes are human and leadership matters. Organizations would not spend millions of dollars on all of these coaches if they didn’t make a difference. Ask Tampa and Baltimore.

      • You know what I’ve discovered about coaching/managing, having coached a softball team for six years? There are egos that need to be managed. But, even the poutiest douche on a softball team still wants to succeed; still wants to hit homeruns and be the best. Anything the manager does or doesn’t do should be inconsequential to that player succeeding or failing.

      • Baltimore wasn’t “managed up.” Sorry.

        • they just had Lady Luck co-managing…

        • All of the ‘great’ managers mentioned by Garcias Burnt Uni were fired at least once. Assuming they didn’t temporarily ‘forget’ what supposedly made them so great, I can only conclude that the talent and desire of the players makes all of the difference. Otherwise great managers would never get fired. Ever.

          • another bs line. no question that talent is far more important than the managers ability but when things go wrong the manager is usually the first to go (convenient scapegoat for the GM sometimes). sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t their fault (more often than not it likely isn’t). horses for courses as well. some managers work well for some teams and not for others. Just because great managers get fired it doesn’t mean they can’t have an impact. you couldn’t call them great if they didn’t.

        • i love the baltimore is all shoewalter theory

          what happened in 2011 then?

          • In 2011,he made the wrong decisions, in 2012 he made the right ones.
            Really, do you think it’s black and white,straight forward,one way and the only way?
            You’re missing a great game.

          • who said Baltimore is all Showalter?

      • of course people want to do their best but they need support and an environment that brings out the best in them. The mental aspects/frame of mind/morale are a big deal in baseball. how else do you explain how streaky players are? When they go into big slumps they don’t suddenly lose strength and speed. It is mental. I’ve heard players say, when they are riding hot, that the baseball seems like a beachball coming in.

        In regards to Baltimore it is mainly talent, but is also part leadership and part luck. Maybe more on the luck side than leadership but you don’t win 93 games and then advance to the ALDS based purely on luck. If you watched them you could tell they were a damn good baseball team. They had momentum and were playing well.

        • I have a degree in math, but even I realize that just because you cant put a number on something doesn’t mean it isn’t important.

          • I think strategy/tactics are a factor as well. maybe not a big one, but it is something. I think most managers can figure out lineups/rotations/bullpen management/base running/fundamentals so there would be little difference there. getting the best out of players though, in terms of helping them tailor their approach at the plate can be a big deal. certain players perform better with certain approaches (e.g. drawing walks vs. aggressive) and if you try to ram a certain approach down some players throats it wont work out. if you try to tweak their swing too much, as well, it can do more harm than good (seems to work better for some than others). a player can fail in one environment and succeed in another (e.g. Hill).

      • +1.

        I think the SABR guys try to take the emotion & human relationships out of the game.

        I listened to the podcast & the guy Drew was thinking about a is former expos manager Tom Runnels who showed up in military fatigues at spring training in 1992. The players laughed at him & he was out of a job by May 22 1992.

        Felip Alou took over & the Jays nearly beat the Pirates in 1992 & went on to very good years in 1993 & 1994.

  4. I hardly knew who Buffery was before this. He’s just trying to sound like a homer in order to get people to know who the fuck he is. Maybe if we keep ignoring these idiotic columnists, they’ll go away.

  5. October 25, 2010: John Farrell announced as Manager of the Blue Jays.
    October 25, 2011: Anthopoulos and Beeston joint statement regarding lateral moves.

    Less than a year into a three year commitment – made willingly – by Farrell, he was looking to get out. Buffery may be overstating thing to a great degree, but let’s not pretend for a moment that Farrell isn’t an asshole here.

    • To think that, you have to ignore the very obvious extenuating circumstance in Boston. Sorry, but you’ll need a better way to justify your anger.

      • To think what? Farrell asked out of his contract in less that a year. Just because he didn’t think that his first choice would be available doesn’t change the fact that he made a three-year commitment. Asking out in under a year is asshole-ish.

        I’m not angry about it, and you’re not sorry.

        • I think most people would have done the same thing as Farrell were they in his shoes.

        • @Voodoo_Matt Nope. Asshole-ish would be pouting and not showing up to do his job. Communicating with his boss about his interest is a pretty reasonable and professional way of going about it.

      • True… I didn’t see Farrell trying to get out of Toronto to manage the Marlins last year.

        • Who the F cares!! If he didnt want to stay then why on earth would we want to keep him? We got a starting shortstop for him in a trade for a manager which is rare….does anyone really think hes going to make a difference in Boston, a team desperate for some discipline which judging by all the outburts and suspensions and pouting we saw from Jose, Lawrie and Escobar this year, Farrell isnt capable of providing? what happened here….Maybe it’s because there is no hockey, all those pig headed obnoxious leafs fans who pretend they know anything at all about another sport other than hockey are now experts on the Jays….just move on, we’ll get a new manager and be just fine

      • ‘obvious extenuating circumstance’ fuck you make these statements like everyone knows what the hell your talking about. What are these circumstances?

        • If the shoe was on the other foot & Maddon from Tampa decided he wanted to be the Jays manager in 2012 because he loved Niagara wine, wouldn’t AA look silly prematurely firing Farrell to replace him with Maddon & refuse to pay the Farrell the other 2 years??

          Farrell is an opprtunist, & eventually these moves backfire on you.

          Farrell has 3 years to build the sox, which could be easy if they open the bank again & rebuild quickly or longer if they do a long term rebuild.

          In light of all this mess, AA took the high road & didn’t bash Farrell personally but he has to be extremely upset especially when he said AA would leave for the Montreal Expos if they existed.

      • That’s bullshit Andrew. If you leave a company to take on a higher position at another which requires you to make a 3 year committment, and then try to head back to your old company one year in just because the same position opened up there, that’s just unprofessional and self-serving. Let’s not exaggerate the ‘extenuating circumstances’ here. They aren’t that uncommon.

    • Yeah, I have to agree. I am not going to get all torn up about the whole situation, partly Im sure because I don’t call the GTA home, but there is no doubt that Farrell was and has been a Red Sox first and a manager of the Jays second.

      There are only so many ways you can spin it and none of them sound good.

      I wish Farrell nothing but a losing record and I wish the Jays would tighten up their highering practices to at least include the following question in the interview:

      “So why are you looking to leave your current MLB team to come to the Jays?”

      Lets get someone in there who is both good and a Blue Jay.

      It’s not too much to ask that the fucking manager of your ball club to have pride of ownership in the fucking club he is managing.

      This something that Farrell has admitted as much that he did not have.

      SO he can suck it. :)

  6. Can we stop talking about Farrell now and focus on uninformed speculative managerial bingo, before AA goes and spoils all the fun by hiring someone?

    My initial observation about the lists floating around is no mention of Luis Rivera. i seem to recall that last time around there was a lot of talk about him and he was a hot managerial prospect, either with the Jays or someone else.

    Has two years of toiling in the stands as a quasi-coach with the Jays knocked down his stock or at least knocked him off people’s radars? I’m not sugesting he should get the gig, I’m just surprised that he’s not getting mentioned as being in the running.

    On a related note, I see that Joey Cora got the boot in Miami along with Ozzie Guillen. Cora’s another guy who was talked about as a hot managerial prospect and on the radar of the chattering classes last time the Jays were hiring.

    Interesting that the Marlins weren’t inclined to promote him and that he also doesn’t seem to be in the mix this time around for managerial openings.

    • Stoeten- you nail it with the ESPN/Toronto Sun comparison. No matter how thankful you are, or quite frankly, how much you actually ENJOY your current job, in any field of work, it is foolish not to move on to an opportunity you prefer if it is presented to you.

      I am no fan of JF as a manager, but we are forgetting that he ACTUALLY handled this situation with class by not going to the media a year ago or going on record that Boston was his dream job, which would have TRULY forced AA’s hand, until after the transaction was completed. Not.once had anything other than speculation come out that JF was unhappy, other than perhaps wanting.an extension. And even there, I don’t recall any direct quotes.

      Like any breakup, this is an opportunity to find a good fit, not a time to dwell on being spurned. If AA does his job and hires the right guy, we will be able to look back on our ex manager and be thankful that we aren’t still stuck in that relationship where bunting and rajai Davis and Escobar leading off was the norm.

      • Well said.

      • While I agree that the Toronto Sun/ESPN comparison is apt, it leaves a question for me. What if, next season, just before the trade deadline, the Yankees are in need of a power hitting right fielder, and Bautista says he’s always dreamed of playing for the pinstripes?

        Do you consider his request, and try to make it happen, as they did with Scott Rolen a few years ago? I suppose you do, and you try to get every ounce of value you can in that deal, as the Jays did, getting E5 in the deal. But it’s a bad situation when talent is leaving you to go play (or manage) for their ‘dream team’.

        This bad situation is still a reality for a sub-500 team that looks further from competing today than they did a year ago, or two years ago.

        • In that case I’d trade Bautista to Houston.

        • Very different situation. The Jays commitment to Bautista is much longer and stronger, for one.

          But it’s one they’d have to consider, if they really are farther from contention. I think it’s silly to say that they’re not– it’s a meaningless statement until you see what happens this winter.

      • Handled with class? It is the Jays Management that are the ones showing class. Farrell’s situation was all over the media last year and this one too – who put it out there?
        Yeah Farrell is just full of class, and so too are the Red Sox. We must be the Bad Guys. (sarcasum)
        Anyway at best lets just say Mr. Farrell is not a man who honours his committments – and thats the truth!

      • @Nick.

        f Farrell had gone public with a speech about a dream job in Boston, AA could fire him with no compensation.

        Plus the red sox could give him the job at less money.

  7. We can talk about how managers don’t mean anything, but Boston clearly thinks they do. And that has to mean something.

    I can see the argument that it looks like AA bent over, but put me in the camp that doesn’t give a shit about this controversy on the basis that Farrell wasn’t a fit here. Letting Boston get what they want is something people have a right to fume about, yet I don’t know what the solution is.

    • It’s just a strange turn of events with not much in the way of precedent, therefore not much in the way of a consensus outcome.

    • “We can talk about how managers don’t mean anything, but Boston clearly thinks they do. And that has to mean something.”

      It doesn’t.

      I think they may have a unique situation there, with respect to the relationship with the media. Farrell has their respect, deep connections, and a good working relationship, which I think goes a long way to cover his tactical flaws.

      I don’t think we can draw a lot of conclusions about managers in general from what Boston wanted here.

      • I agree. There is a special relationship between the media and the team in Beantown. This is why I’m disappointed that AA couldn’t extract more for him. From my perspective, Cherington was in one tough spot to fill the hole with anyone other than Farrell, whether as an interim manager for a year (waiting for JF), or with someone permanent like Valentine (guffaw). It would have been nice to see that AA was able to squeeze more out of Cherington than he was: JF was the difference in the value of Aviles and Carpenter, which is to say, next to nothing.

        I don’t think that this really harms Toronto’s reputation in terms of being a destination for talent. But I think that this demonstrates that AA is not as shrewd a negotiator as we all once thought he was (see: Wells, Vernon).

        • Beeston handled the negotiations I believe.

        • @Winfield.

          AA admitted that the deal was done at the ownership level.

          At best AA was given a list of a few lower level prospects or the 25th man on the roster that the Sox did not want anyway. He lost his starting job in August.

          AA picked the best of a bad lot.

          AA had no control to stop the deal, fire Farrell etc…

          Beeston did this deal & as usual the Jays lose.

          • Yes, the Jays lose…because your idea of the Jays “winning” is to waste time being spiteful to show how strong they are.

            Fucking idiot.

  8. Questioning the loyalty of players/personnel in professional sports is a popular approach for many commentators. I suppose it may reach back to the writers’ days of youth sports, where team loyalty is driven into the players by coaches/parents or maybe, as Shawn Green would put it, the writers have been exposed to too many Gatorade or Under Armour commercials.

    Regardless, it’s a laughable statement to make. Professional baseball is a business and the decisions of players and personnel, as well as team decisions involving players and personnel are driven by business considerations. Loyalty has little value in a competitive market.

    • So Halladay forgoed the FA market,twice, to show loyalty to the Jays,it meant nothing?.It didn’t show to others that the Jays were able to retain top talent and might be a place to go to win?

  9. Say what now? Even by the modern DJF’s contrarian standards, this defence of Farrell is ridiculous.

    The Jays were the ones that gave him his shot. He took the job after an exhaustive hunt for a manager, fully aware that the Jays were planning for the long-term. And he looks to jump ship after a year just because something cosier comes along?

    Who cares about what Farrell wants? The point is that he had made a committment to AA, Beeston, the Blue Jays organisation, and the fanbase. He tried bailing on that after a year, after another year and, if the Toronto media is to be believed, tried to facilitate it through the Boston media.

    John Wooden passed on his first choice for a coaching job because he had given his word to UCLA – that is integrity. This isn’t about whether Farrell is a good manager or not…it’s about his lack of character, disloyalty (yes, that’s exactly what it was), and the impact on the brand.

    The entire thing is a shambles, and you only need to look at message boards, every blog (aside from this one), radio stations, columnists to see that you’re in a minority of one. Contrarianism just looks like a weak schtick if there’s no decent argument to be made.

    • I made the argument. Very clearly. Read it again, quit the platitudes, and come back to reality.

      • That’s just condescending. Duke of Wellington’s comments are no less valid than some of what’s in your post.

        There’s nothing “unreasonable” about being angry your manager wanted to jump ship to a hated divisional rival a year into his hiring (independent of the on-field commitment to the Blue Jays he rather obviously satisfied). How is that not disloyalty defined? How is that not absolutely the definition of “dropping a bombshell?”

        You’re using Farrell’s original (and yes, probably entirely honourable and noble) intentions to defend his current actions. It just doesn’t play.

        We’re not talking about someone who was working in the mail room at the bottom of a skyscraper and politely asked to be released from his contract because a VP position in the corporate penthouse opened up. This is 100% defecting to the other side to take the same job.

        Now, you can absolutely defend Farrell’s personal view. As you’ve done. Empathy sort of has to excuse how he felt because, yeah, we’d likely all feel the same and lambasting him for this is basically hypocrisy. You’re probably right.

        But why is that empathy relevant? Just because we’d supposedly all do the same, it justifies what he’s done? We’re not the stakeholder here. He is.

        If Farrell’s going to act on those feelings – even if it’s the best thing for everyone in the long term – then he’s going to have to face the consequences the same way any of us would in our own lives. Assuming we, for example’s sake, we went from working at the Sun to ESPN.

        And the consequences are a contingent of very angry fans whose voices on the issue are no less relevant than a cool head pretending we shouldn’t feel jilted by the situation and more than a little peeved about the way John’s handled it. I think that’s entirely *reasonable*.

      • And I should add, for some clarification of my own perspective (in the event of a sharp-witted and slightly pretentious rebuttal):

        No, I don’t think there was any conspiracy here. No, I don’t think John in any way failed to fulfill a contractual commitment to the Blue Jays while he worked here. And, knowing what we know about his attitude and allegiances – yes, I believe it’s a good thing he’s gone. More importantly, I think AA probably did the best and most pragmatic thing possible in essentially letting him go, and some sort of vindictive vengeance plot would have accomplished little.

        • Well said.

          • agreed instead of comparing him to the sun/espn another example is Robert E.Lee who turned down a promotion with the North who he had been served because he would have to invade his home in the south and left for the south.

            A comparison of ESPN and the Toronto Sun is stupid, because you did not say ESPN the magazine. ESPN includes TV audience. Buffery is not Tom Arnold.

        • I agree.

    • @ Duke plus +10.

      You bring up a good point that Farrell must have known that AA wanted a long term manager, not just a guy who was waitng for Francona to get fired.

      Red Sox Nation was supposed to win it all in 2011 & should have except for the chaos in september 2011.

      If the red sox had made the playoffs & won the world series in 2011, farrell would have to wait till 2013 or later to get the red sox job.

      Farrell took advantage of a naive AA, who assumed Farrell would go along with whatever Rogers wanted.

      They are at different places in their careers.

      AA is still young & needs a few more years to prove himself.

      farrell wants to win now, & the Jays don’t want/can’t accelerate the rebuilding quickly enough.

      If it’s true that Farrell demanded starting pitching at the trade deadline & all AA could do was Happ, who decided to put Happ in the bullpen?? That was dumb.

  10. for all we know, the Jays were slow playing him on a contract extension?!

    • Based on two years of awful tactical, in game decisions?

      Surrrrrre.

    • And after he told them he wanted the fuck out a year earlier?

      • @Vodoo.

        It makes sense that AA was reluctant to offer Farrell an extension given he wanted to go to Boston.

        Maybe AA wanted to keep him for 1 more year & hoped he would change his mind & stay in Toronto or give him time to find Farrell’s replacement.

        If Farrell stayed in 2013, It would also give AA another 1 year to do another “exhaustive search” for a new manager.

        Remember that Beeston wouldn’t allow AA to pick his own manager for 2010. He had to keep Cito after the clubouse revolt in Sept 2009.

  11. “Shit, Farrell even soldiered on with the Jays through 2012, having watched this “dream job” of his go to Bobby Valentine– not a manager lacking in esteem at the time, who we now see was obviously the wrong choice, but who very easily could have taken the ball and run with it.”

    I don’t know if he “soldiered on” last season. Kinda seemed like he half assed it, spending his time trying to figure out what was wrong with Bard and Buchholz as opposed to Romero and Alverez. I think AA expected No-Care-Ell Farrell to be a pro and move on when the Red Sox replaced Tito. But looking at it now, doesn’t it seem like the Sox hired someone like Bobby V to fill in for a couple of years until John was free of his contract? And even if Bobby V won them 2 WS – that didn’t stop them from firing Tito, did it?

    Farrell was so meaningless, inconsequential and blahzay that he didn’t even warrant a Fake Farrell imposter here on DJF. At least if Cito was managing the last two year, we all could have had a few laughs from the fake Cito posters….

  12. I really struggle with this “lame duck” label being attached to Farrell on the last year of his contract…we don’t call players in the last year of their contracts “lame ducks”. In fact, players in the final year of their contract are often motivated to excel in the hopes that a lucrative contract awaits them at the end of the final year…so why not for managers? Farrell had extenuating circumstances that prevented a valid evaluation of him as manager, but he did show, quite often, that he was on the learning curve of becoming a competent manager…and the jury’s still out where he’s at on that learning curve now.

    The fact is he had a mess to manage this year and made some glaring miscues in judgement calls…which is what managing is all about. The miscues weren’t so bad when the Jays were winning, and the clubhouse was united…but when injuries and poor play from some of the players counted on to lead the team, Farrell’s lack of skills and/or experience became glaringly apparent.

    He still has a mess to manage next year in Boston. Things may go alright if the Sox start off on a winning streak…if they start poorly, we will likely see more of the same miscues from John Farrell.

  13. If Farrell left the Jays for ANY other team, the anger is warranted – justified even. But he didn’t. It’s not like he told the FO “hey, if Marlins gig becomes available i’d like to pursue that”.

    Farrell got what he wanted and is better for it. And frankly, the Jays will be better for it too. Again, a manager means absolutely NOTHING if the general manager does not put the proper pieces together. Successful managers are a product of good GM’s, not the other way around.

    • Exactly.

    • Tell that to Baltimore.

      • I will. After they prove that their fraud of a season was legit.

      • Baltimore was not managed up, RADAR. No more than Arizona was last year, which– surprise!– disappeared last year.

        It’s not a real thing.

        • It’s a Pythag thing?
          No , it’s luck.
          No, it’s an outlier.

          Whatever, it happened.
          And because of factors that are unmeasurable by your standards.
          If you don’t understand it, it must not exist?
          You’re missing it.

          • no. generally, “it” exists. it just doesn’t have as much of an impact as you think it does because there’s statistical evidence that tells us it doesn’t.

            there are teams every season, in every league, that outperform expectations and fall back to earth the next year.

          • so why didn’t he manage up in 2011?

            it makes no sense to attribute any of baltimores success on buck shoewalter.

          • @ justin
            “it just doesn’t have as much of an impact as you think it does because there’s statistical evidence that tells us it doesn’t.”

            Produce the stats.
            Show the link.

  14. Stoeten,

    I understand your point but to totally disregard the premise that Farrell did not walk all over the Jays, and absolutely take advantage of this situation is foolish.

    Of course we all have our eyes open to that DREAM JOB, however many things that Farrell preached are disingenuous and cliche. He looks bad here because what he did and how he handled the move was bottom of the barrel. We all have freedoms to look for new and better positions, but come on .. this is sports and not really the real world.

    The Jays got played, and good riddance to me. It is after all an unquantifiable position. But you are far too harsh in this case on Buffery and others who lash out at the actions of JF. In my opinion JF deserves any and all criticism handed to him.

    It’s ok for Toronto fans to fight back, and stand up to these sort of moves. Now lets hope that AA and Rogers make huge statements this off season and give us reason to make JF feel foolish.

    BB

    • “In my opinion JF deserves any and all criticism handed to him.”

      Obviously you’re not alone. That’s why I felt this post needed to be written. Much of the criticism– like Buffery’s– rests on willful ignorance.

      This talk about loyalty is bunk. Did the Jays have to extend him the same loyalty in your mind? Wouldn’t that have come in the form of a contract extension, or some form of intention to have him back beyond 2013– especially when he had an opportunity to go elsewhere and be guaranteed more money and a longer term? Or is he just at their mercy, spit on as he goes out the door if someone offers him an opportunity the Jays wouldn’t?

      It’s a more complicated issue than people seem able to see through their anger, I believe.

      • .. except the contract extension not offered by the Jays really shouldn’t come into play in this discussion, since Farrell expressed his desire to leave after 2011 when he had 2 years left on his deal. Term really couldn’t have had much to do with Farrell’s desire given that knowledge.

        • Of course it didn’t the first time around, but he stayed loyal to the Jays when they blocked it, though he in all likelihood could have wiggled out from the contract, don’t you think?

      • Agree .. loyalty is small or negligible part of equation .. really means little when we are set up as a free market – don’t we all average 7 different jobs in our career? So new job especially in sports world is expectation.

        However, JF anger from me and most people I hope is that he pissed on things on his way out, he was looking to get out from far too early on, and he looks like a fraud through and through.

        These are the guys that are easy to hate and deserve some repugnance in these times! JF entered one way but definitely left another .. somewhat surprising that there is little backlash in Boston. He seems to display characteristics of things not wanted in a Manager?

  15. Pat Hentgen leaked on the Blair show today that experience would be significant in the choice of the new blue jays manager.

    hmmmm

    Ozzie – not likely

    Manny Acta – perhaps, expos connection, maybe with Alomar jr. coming over, one or the other being a bench coach (just pay them well – kinda like Tony Lacava.

    or………. drum roll………

    Jim Tracy
    Jim Tracy
    Jim Tracy
    Jim Tracy
    Jim Tracy

    y’know, i’ver heard that if you say something enough times it becomes true!

    Jim TracyJim TracyJim TracyJim TracyJim TracyJim TracyJim TracyJim Tracy

    • Jim Tracy

    • i’m gonna start calling the radio shows explaining how the jays suck at inter-league and they need an NL manager.

      also, how the jays never have a long winning streak and that Jim Tracy and the rockies alway have winning steaks.

      so much red meat to give. it’ll be fun to watch everyones head collectively explode.

    • Experience doesn’t have to only mean as MLB manager. Someone like Demarlo Hale has apparently managed something like 1,000 games in the minors. I don’t mind a rookie manager, as long as they actually know what it’s like to manage at some level, which is why I’m not sold on Alomar. Farrell Never managed at any level before the Jays and I think it showed.

  16. Ugh, he wasn’t Joe Maddon . Stop making a shitstorm over a little piece of shit media.

  17. So wait, I’m not allowed.to be pissed at Farrell? Fuck that, I ain’t no pussy.

    • You can be pissed, just comprehend how it kinda makes you an idiot if you’re pissed at things that make no sense.

      • I’m pissed at the team for hiring a manager who didn’t wanna be here

        Im pissed at a manager for signing a contract and decided he didn’t like it halfway through.

        Im pissed because people are telling my I’m stupid if I’m pissed.

        Btw, are you gonna boo him when he comes back to town?

        I am.

  18. Just image the uproar if Farrell had pressured AA into trading the farm for Depster and Garza at the deadline.

  19. Optically, this whole affair doesn’t look great on the Blue Jays organization. However, Farrell wanted out, the Blue Jays got a serviceable piece in return and now can hire a manager who will have similar impact on the on-field product (minimal). Fans can now direct their hate at Farrell and the Red Sox.

    Really the Blue Jays made the best of the situation. Quite frankly, if the 2013 season went south early, the likelihood of Farrell getting extended past 2013 would have been very low (medium at best) and so why not avoid having a lame duck manager who may resent the organization for not letting him go to his ‘dream job’ on two separate occasions and actually get something of value in return?

  20. My issue has nothing to do with loyalty to Toronto, Boston was his dream job and frankly I don’t think he’s that good of a manager, my issue is with him running his mouth at the press conference. Farrell should have been as PC as possible and given a “hockey player” interview. Instead he opened his mouth about Toronto and — even if it was true — besmirched the franchise that just obliged his request, and his former bosses.

  21. I really don’t understand the big deal. Employees request to be released from contracts all the time, if a better personal situation comes up. The employer is, of course, under no obligation to release the employee, but most employers will be understanding and do so.
    And I mean, come on, if any of us were working at a position we liked, but then our absolute dream position came up, the one we always wanted, and it was clear that the position would be offered to us, I’m sure each one of us would at least ask if we could be let out of our contract. There is no reason to be angry, and there is no reason to see this is disloyal.

  22. I understand John Farrell.

    He probably has as much loyalty to Boston as he does to Toronto. After all, Boston was the team that gave him his first coaching gig.

    Then you get the fact that it was the Red Sox organization that helped him out while his son was ill. Not the Blue Jays!!! Fucking Rogers too fucking cheap to give the man some help?!?!

    Then this is his dream job. Who the fuck wouldn’t want to work their dream job?

    • Even if the Jays wanted to help, his son was in Boston and the Sox have connections with doctors and hospitals there. I’d be willing to bet It was probably ALL covered by Farrell’s insurance. Now, dont you feel cheap for taking a cheap shot at Rogers and the Jays?

    • Your third paragraph is insane, take a step back.

  23. So who’s gonna take Lind now?

    • an adam lind/Mark Reynolds platoon for one year could work out well in both budget and splits.

  24. Almost all of the commentary about this mentions the fact that the manager doesn’t really have a lot of impact on the winning and losing. This is something that Drew and Griffin and Stoeten and McCown all seem to agree on.

    I’ve also seen at least Griffin and Wilner (I think) make statements to effect that a good manager can win you maybe 5 games and a bad one can lose you 15. Is this now an accepted “truism”? Or is this at least somewhat based in fact?

    If it’s the latter, it means that bad manager actually can cost you 20 in the W-L columns?

    These aren’t meant as rhetorical or trolling questions – they’re honest, if uninformed, ones.

    I don’t know if Farrell was the reason they finished 73-89 rather than 93-69, but I do feel like he managed them out of at least 5 wins each of the 2 seasons he was there. If a good manager could have picked up another 5, that’s a 10 game swing…

    • Mentioned above– I don’t think it’s nearly as big as 20.

    • They really are arbitrary numbers. The players are the ones who perform and if they do or don’t affect the game to the greatest degree.
      But think about it really. A good manager will utilize the tools that are available to maximize positive results.
      Even Farrell stated that he was running and bunting too much, he should have used the bullpen differently.He obsessed with LRLRL lineups.He took the majors homerun hitting club and played small ball.He admits to learning how to manage in Toronto. This after being in baseball all his life and what people call a very smart man.
      The Jays record in 2012 is a result of injuries, talent level,performance AND managerial decisions ,to which even Farrell agrees he fucked up.
      Yeah, anybody with a pulse and a basic understanding of baseball can manage.
      Bullshit.

    • The numbers aren’t important, the main point they’re trying to get across is the concept that managers are hard-up to add value beyond the talent at his disposal, but a disaster of a manager can very easily detract value.

      It’s like anything in life, it’s easy to half-ass anything you do and perform at 50% of your capability. It’s much harder (and improbable) to inexplicably do something at 50% above your ordinary capability and capacity.

      • Sorry Brumfield, I disagree.
        Certainly you need the players but it’s the MIXTURE of players,strategy,coaching and many more things that produce champions.
        It ain’t easy.
        Boston claimed to have the best team EVER assembled in baseball history in 2011. Even if they were top 25 , you’d think a better result would occured.
        Ditto 2011 Philles piching staff.
        Not acknowledge that there are other factors besides the players is naive.and simplistic

        • I’ve said it b4 and I’ll say it again: the value of 30 MLB managers collectively is a zero sum game.

          So this notion that a manager can only win 5 games and lose 10, 15 or 20 a year seems like a reach.

          What people fail to realize is that there are instances where Toronto benefitted from another team’s poor management and this rarely gets factored into the equation.

          Whether it’s +/- 5, 10 or 15, the value added/lost is no different than it is for players.

          If John Farrell isn’t a top 10 manager – and he’s done nothing in 2 years to show that he is as far as the tangible in game manegement stuff – I’d rather see if the Jays can find one who is.

  25. I wonder if AA’s policy of media silence and not playing games is actually hurting the club more than it helps.

    It’s pretty obvious that like a political party alot of teams front offices are using the media to spin a narrative and brief on matters to try and get a competitive edge.

    The BOS media and Farrell was one example I’d this.

    Sadly, I think that the Jays might have to be a bit more aggressive on medi relations and spin because the current approach isn’t working.

    It’s sad but all the negative vibes around this and the decisions taken last offseason won’t go away easily and it’s going to need a new approach to how the team sgd it’s offseason is positioned

    • good point! plenty of evidence on both sides.

      the only way i see silence working best is if your targeting an expensive free agent. Considering that they haven’t, they would have been better of “showing” interest to at least raise the costs of their competitors.

    • I don’t see how it matters what the Boston media was saying, frankly. The Jays could have put a stop to all this, if they really wanted. And I think AA is showing that he doesn’t really give a fuck about all that noise, which to me is terrific.

    • I’d argue that the “cone of silence” didn’t hurt, and quite possibly helped, in the Halladay, Morrow, Escobar & Lawrie trades among others.

      We saw the other side of the coin with Ricciardi. The fact he couldn’t keep his mouth shut quite likely hurt his ability to trade Doc and acquire Lincecum for Rios.

  26. Loyalty is a two way street. I’m sure the Blue Jays wouldn’t have hesitated to can JF’s ass if they felt he wasn’t performing or they believed a better managerial candidate was available. Farrell wanted to go to Boston. So what? Who gives a shit? Let’s change the channel on this little psychodrama. We don’t need to throw a hissy fit every time some Yank engineers his way out of town. It happens in every city. Don’t worry, Toronto is not some little podunk town but given the mass inferiority complex I sometimes wonder. It’s the fourth largest city with an MLB team in case anyone was wondering. Yes, bigger even than Boston so stuff that in your clam chowder-holes Red Sawks fans!

  27. Lind better be on waivers

  28. I can’t wait for Brandon Morrow to bean John Farrell during his first plate appearance in Toronto…

    Wait, whats that? Hes a crappy manager? Oh, moving on then.

  29. Can’t we give Lind some PEDs? Even if he gets caught it’s a win/win situation

  30. Farrell committed to three years with the Blue Jays, and he should have kept his mouth shut re: the Boston situation for those three years. Afterwards, do whatever the hell you want.

    As soon as he opened his mouth last year, he should have been traded or fired.

    There’s plenty of blame to assign to both Farrell and AA in this debacle.

  31. I’d have done the same thing as Farrell. No doubt. But that doesn’t absolve him from the criticism and the boos that are surely to follow. It’s well-earned, part and partial to his decision. To say otherwise dictates a selfish, self-centered and moraless society as acceptable.

    My girlfriend landed a good job right out of Grad School. 9 months later, her dream job arose out of nowhere and she got it. Now the non-profit that spent the last year training her and learning from her mistakes is SOL. I’d make that decision 1000 times out of 1000, but it’s selfish and inconsiderate to those whom afforded you the great opportunity in the first place.

    • The difference is I’m guessing your girlfriend didn’t sign a fixed-term contract with the non-profit. Farrell did. By signing that contract you’re committing to the orgnization for the contract term.

      • Would that organization get compensated for their loss? If so, who really cares? There will be more girlfriends out of grad school that will be able to fill her role.

      • And the organization is committing to you for… however long you’re useful.

        • And if I become useless to my organization, I’m also out of a job.

          It’s not a perfect analogy, but the sentiment is there: sometimes we have to fuck over people (or organizations) to do what’s best for us. I get it. I’ve done it. But is the spurned organization not just in their resentment?

      • Why the hell can’t Rogers enforce this fixed term contract, the way they do others in other areas of their operations?

    • You’re one step short on your equivalency. Next have your girlfriend return to the non-profit within a year or so and with the same improved title and salary she negotiated at her ‘dream job’ and wax poetic about how this was always her first love.

      Congratulations, your girlfriend just pulled a John Farrell and in the real world she is now toxic to any company that works with the one she just spurned. Know why? In the real world it doesn’t reflect well on you to accept a long term role with the unexpressed intention to leverage that promotion for better terms with your old company.

  32. i think an important question here is: given the espn/boston – toronto sun/blue jays analogy, how do the jays become fox sports or something. how do the jays become an organization people want to be connected with.

  33. Way to miss the entire fucking point Stoeten. The point is not that a team employee dared to leave to a rival. We spend a million goddamned months on that manager search with the intention of finding a long term manager who would be the face of the team for the forseeable future. How long is the forseeable future? Presumably longer than one fucking year.

    There are two possible ways this happened. Either Farrell lied through his teeth when he said he was committed to the team in his interviews or AA forgot to ask him pretty much the first question any employer asks an interviewee they are trying to promote from a competitor – would you use this job as an attempt to negotiate better terms from your previous employer? Obviously no one knew that Tito was going to get run out of town, but I’ve never been to or conducted an interview for a non entry level role where that question was not asked.

    Given that it took him about 8 months to covet the Red Sox like they were his neighbour’s wife, I’m guessing his burning love of one of our biggest rivals is maybe something that should have come up in the 3 months we spend interviewing candidates. Since I believe that AA is a professional and Beeston is a competent businessman, my conclusion is that Farrell was less than truthful when asked these questions. That is why I view him as an opportunistic weasel.

    • You’re telling ME I missed the point???

      For fuck sakes.

      • Cause you did. They hired Farrell with the express purpose of having him be the anti-Cito, a long term face of the franchise. And all of your articles make this false equivalency like Farrell is fucking John Gibbons and we didn’t spend 3 fucking months trying to find the right guy.

        Your whole opinion is based on the premise that Alex forgot to ask Farrell if there was an identical job he’d take no matter how well things went with the Blue Jays. Either that or you’re saying that Alex figured it was unfathomable that Tito would get fired and the issue would never come up anyway. It took him 8 months man – 8 months from committed long term to ‘I never really liked it here anyway.’ That’s bush league under the circumstances of his hiring.

  34. Guys, it makes NO SENSE for Farrell to tank it this season on purpose. Maybe he was distracted by the sense of opportunity to manage for Boston, but why would he check out early with Toronto on purpose? It only looks fucking terrible if he does.

    Yes, there were lapses in judgment and mistakes. Farrell’s lack of co-ordination with AA was clear at the Escobar presser. These are just signs of a guy who’s heart isn’t into it. Not someone tanking it on purpose. That’s far too risky — he could have lost Boston’s interest if he was too obviously sucking.

  35. OK, The Sun is a nest of mouth-breathing morons. But, I don’t think they entirely wrong. Farrell took the job in Toronto after turning down other offers and we were all thrilled about it. However one year in, he told his bosses–they didn’t ask him, he told them–that he would prefer to manage in Boston. Where he knew there was a job vacancy for which he was the Number One candidate. They told him he needed to stay put. If there is even a suggestion that he wasn’t paying as much attention to his players as he needed to during that year, I think he is behaving dishonourably. And there is a suggestion. He has said that he could see the problems with Lester’s delivery as he watched him pitch from the opposite dug-out and knows what should be corrected. Which? OK. However he didn’t see the problems with Romero’s delivery and was at a complete loss as to what should be corrected. Going so far as to muse aloud about Romero’s toughness etc which I’m sure did no good at all and incensed the kid. Farrell apparently also knows how to fix Bard and get him back to be the ‘feared 8th inning guy’ he knows he is. But, again, he didn’t work his magic too much with Jason Frasor did he?

    Now you may say ‘well he’s not the pitching coach’. But he was obviously behaving like Boston’s pitching coach last season because he was spending his time analyzing their pitchers’ performance rather than ours by the sound of it. So, yeah, I think Farrell is a jerk. I think he is disloyal. I think he is a self-entitled Masshole. And if an excoriation of his rear end by the Sun ‘morons’ does something to galvanize the sleepwalkers they call fans in this city, I’m all for it.

    • The Lester thing and the Romero thing have nothing to do with one another, nor does the fact that he says he can with Bard, but didn’t with Frasor. He was not behaving like Boston’s pitching coach, and there’s nothing to suggest that he was neglecting the Jays’ problems, other than the lack of results. Unless you believe Farrell has some magic formula to fix any and all pitcher that he withheld from the Jays, this is insanity.

      • No it isn’t. Farrell was the Boston manager for two days and he made the comment that he could fix Lester and Bard. He was the Toronto manager for two years but he couldn’t fix Romero’s pitching problems. Maybe they were not fixable. But I look at a guy who can diagnose a pitching problem from information gleaned watching the pitcher pitch very occasionally while in the opposing dug-out and yet is unable to diagnose the problems of a pitcher who pitches for him every five days. I find it hard to believe that Farrell was as focussed on his pitchers and the rest of his players as he should have been in the light of the statement he made about Lester and Bard. He may not have been sending Boston notes about Lester’s performance and I’m sure he wasn’t. But he was certainly spending time checking out opposing players when he should have been checking out his own players if we are to believe what he said at the presser.

        • What about Brandon Morrow? Casey Janssen? Carlos Villanueva? Luis Perez? Hell, what about Romero in 2011? If Farrell deserves blame for Romero going down the tubes this past year, shouldn’t he get credit for the pitchers that blossomed in his tenure?

          • You’re mistaking my point. It’s not that he did not pay attention to the pitchers. I’m sure he did and so did his pitching coach. It’s that by his own admission he paid close attention to the pitchers from the Red Sox. And I would rather he had spent his valuable time evaluating his own player. Brandon Morrow was better last season but he was nowhere near as good as we are led to believe he could be. Romero was good in 2011 but wasn’t at all bad in 2010 and was on an upward trajectory. Until 2012.

            I can’t blame Farrell for all the evil things that happened this season. There is plenty of blame to go around. However I reserve the right to get very nettled indeed to hear that he already after two days gotten a handle on two big problems for the Sux when he didn’t seem to have a handle on a bunch of big problems for the Jays during an entire season.

          • That was part of his job as a manager. To pick up on what opposing pitchers were doing. The Jays faced Lester numerous times this season and they tattooed Lester that one afternoon game in Fenway, I think it’s possible that Lester was tipping his pitches or something, Farrell picked up on it and his team took advantage.

            Bard was barely in the majors in 2012 and his defining moment was the disaster in Toronto when he nearly took out Encarnacion and Escobar and was throwing heaters every which way except over the plate. 2 of Bard’s 10 2012 starts were against the Jays.

            These are things he could have picked up in his ordinary course of being a manager of the Toronto Blue Jays. There’s no evidence that suggests he sat in the clubhouse poring over Bard and Lester video or that he was ducking out to his office after games mixing his magic pitching elixir that he was keeping away from the Jays.

          • @ Brumfield

            Again you are twisting what I am saying into something unrecognizable. I don’t suggest Farrell had some ‘magic elixir’ that he withheld from the Jays. I suggest he obviously spent time thinking about opposing pitchers that he may well have spend thinking about his own. There is no suggestion Farrell was acting as a fifth columnist. At least not on my part. However what I took from the presser was a manager for one club that seems to have had a lot of interest in another club before it was his place to do that. Going back to Stoeten’s original post, The Sun may have gone over the top and The Sun does that on a regular basis. But Farrell was not Sir Lancelot pining over Guinevere here. He was a guy who took on a job with certain responsibilities–and commitment was one of them–and demonstrated a lack thereof. And very quickly. As soon as the Sux job was available he told his bosses he wanted out. Personally, no matter what it looked like, I think they should have let him go then.

    • + winner of the internet…well put isabellareyes!!

  36. Disagree with the post Stoeten

    The issue here is not how he went about announcing his interest in Boston. The problem most people have is that he wanted to go back there as his dream job 1 year after taking the position. Whether he admits it or not, wanting to manage back in Boston that soon after leaving them affects the way he does his job in Toronto knowing that his heart and long term plans aren’t there.

    Statistically there is little to no proof that a great manager can win you more games. That said, I believe a poor manager can lose you games.

    Please don’t read this thinking I wish JF fulfilled his full contract here because I think we win this trade hands down. That said, we have a lot of right to be angry with Farrell and question his motives from the beginning of his tenure in Toronto.

    • @ Tucker agreed.

      Farrell musthave known that a spot would be opening up in Boston by early August.

      maybe this explains the whacky baserunning, no one caring what Yunel wore on his eye patch & the general flat performance from the team since early August. Injuries played arole but they weren’t even playing fundamentals.

  37. I don’t get all the bile being directed toward John Farrell on this. It seems abundantly clear that he was pretty up-front with the Jays that Toronto was his second choice.

    If we’re going to question anyone, it would be Alex Anthopoulos’s judgment in bringing in someone who didn’t consider the Jays his first choice – where he really wanted to be.

    Nevertheless, unless some concrete evidence arises that a) the players somehow sensed that Farrell wasn’t going to be around (i.e. that he was a “lame duck manager” who the players somehow knew they wouldn’t have to answer to next year) or b) Farrell really didn’t put his heart into succeeding in Toronto, I don’t think we have a lot to talk about here. The known facts suggest that a) on a good year, with a slightly below decent team, Farrell is a .500 manager, and b) on a bad year, with a roster that’s 50%-70% injured, he’s a 90-game losing manager.

    So, Andrew, although I think we see this from different angles, I think I agree with you if you’re saying that Farrell really didn’t have a great impact on the club. On the other hand, though, I would say that a great manager can make all the difference. Exhibit A for me would be how John Maddon in Tampa has consistently made that team way better than it would have been under a John Farrell or Jay Gibbons or even Terry Francona. I do think that a great manager can bring the best out of his players on a consistent basis, but it takes a great manager, and there aren’t very many of them.

    • @Noggin

      Great post.

      Put Farrell in Tampa & he would not win 90 games in 2012.

      AA botched the hire, but I wonder if Beeston & Rogers were excited about getting someone from the red sox.

      AA must have been happy that Farrell can talk in circles as much as he can

  38. Nobody will read this, but why are you giving Farrell a free pass on this? He signed a contract for 3 years and asked out twice? Would you give the same slack to a player who asked out a year after signing?

    I don’t think Farrell was very professional about this. In time, he’s going to get fired from Boston, then what? Professional baseball staff can’t have favorite teams if they expect to work in the industry for a long time.

    • Thank you

    • That first paragraph, at least, is very well put.

      If Jose Bautista up and asked for a trade to the New York Yankees because he’s visited Manhattan before and his “heart’s there”, would we be any less angry?

      Now, here comes the lightning fast rebuttal about a manager’s value being infinitely more negligible than a superstar’s, and that my analogy is an epic fail. I know that.

      But how is the principle any different?

      Just because Farrell feels a certain way in his heart, and even IF the outcome is the longterm best solution for everyone: none of that excuses how it all went down.

      Alex: “Here’s a bunch of money. Manage us.”
      John: (Not all that long afterward): “But I realllllly wanna play in Boston.”
      Alex: “Really? Ah, well. Fine. Go ahead. Good luck!”

      No. Like, *fucking* no. You’ve been paid millions of dollars to put on a smile and give 100% of your efforts and loyalty to the Toronto Blue Jays. If you want to bolt to Boston at the end of that contract, fine. That’s your prerogative.

      But all this maneuvering behind closed doors to ditch your contracted employer for one you’d *rather* work for is just horseshit. Defend John’s point of view, sure. We can all *understand*. But professionally, there’s nothing cool about this. It would be the same in any industry. And *our* organization is the one left looking like a collection of flat-footed, undesirable idiots.

      There is some personal understanding. But there is no professional defense.

      • + 100%…awesome post!

      • +1.

        It’s outrageous that Farrell decided that he wanted to ditch the jays the moment Francona was fired.

        So much for Farrell\s loyalty after they spread rumors about drugs & divorce.

        I hope farrell doesn’t have any skeletons in his closet because the red sox will expose them if things fall apart in Boston.

        It’s odd that AA did a year’s worth of “due diligence” & never asked Farrell if he would leave the Jays if a job in Boston came up.

        I completely disagree with the managers don’t make a difference meme.

        The clubhouse will have to adjust to a new style whoever takes over. Learning curve for the new guy etc, could delay progress for another year.

        AA has to be very careful what promises he makes to the next manager.

        AA did not have control over this deal for Aviles which shows that Beeston doesn’t let him make the “Big Boy moves”. Same thing with any moves involving significant payroll additions.

        AA has been exposed as not having full control whether he likes it or not.

        He always has to ask Paul who speaks to Pelley who speakes to Nadir Mohammed. Several hoops to jump.

        • You realize that GMs typically have to get ownership approval for the big money moves you are talking about.

          As much as Rogers is not an ideal owner, let`s not act like they are the only ownership group that expects their GM to justify andéor ask for permission b4 spending a shitload of money.

    • +1.

      Farrell should have stayed in Boston if his heart was in it as pitching coach.

      It seems to me that he took the jays job as a “get experience” , then waited forBoston to implode.

      If Francona had managed for 5 more years, then he would have stayed here or taken a job in Cleveland if that team turned around.

      I do not wish him well in Boston

  39. Go Sun Go!

    Was Damien Cox not even in the running on this one? I think i saw your post that said DNF…. Surprising. He usually likes to moralize from up on high in these types of situations.

  40. Just a few points:

    You say that John Farrell is honest while Buffery says he’s disloyal and arrogant. Why does it have to be one or the other? John Farrell can be all three: honest, disloyal and arrogant.

    All the good burghers of Toronto and environs need to remember that this disloyalty, this bullying by the Red Sox who treated the Blue Jays like some minor league feeder team for the hallowed Red Sox nation were all silent and congratulatory when the Toronto Maple Leafs did the exact same thing to the Anaheim Ducks when it came to Brian Burke. MLSE used the media, their wealth, their influence and dare I say it gamesmanship to get the man they wanted. I don’t recall people complaining about that. Remember when Burke was introduced to the media and he, like Farrell yesterday, talked about how much of unique place Toronto was in hockey, how Toronto was the “Vatican of hockey” and how schools will be renamed for the GM who brings a Stanley Cup to Toronto?

    Both the Red Sox and Maple Leafs, like the Yankees, Man U etc are corporate entities with deep enough pockets to get who they want. They tug on the mystic chords of fan loyalty and sepia toned images of past glories. They know that many fans lap that shit up as we fork over and 40 bucks for an authentic cap.

    Ultimately who cares? Clearly the Blue Jays didn’t want Farrell to stick around and Farrell wanted to return to Boston. A win-win for both sides I’d say.

  41. I’m thrilled that John Farrell left.

    I only wish he’d have taken Dwayne Murphy with him.

    “We are the change we have been waiting for.” – Barack Obama

  42. wordz on the strizeet is that my boy Jermaine Dye could make one dope boss. Ala Cito Gaston stylez ya hurd

  43. Shit, I thought EVERYONE thought I was funny and witty.

  44. This is what Stoeten sounds like to me in the article

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qR5tRwvuas

  45. It looks like there’s only one thing left to do now: hang around and give them all nice big shitburger to eat. And maybe get some starting pitching, that would be good too.

  46. Putting aside the discussion of morality regarding Farrell which seems to be a dispute between a relativist position (eg Stoeten) and an absolutist position (eg Wellington) I am very surprised that there is no sabermetric evaluation of a mangers impact on winning and losing – why isn’t there the equivalent of a WAR for managers – surely there must be some way of assessing the impact of managerial decision making (at least in the context of a game) that factors out team talent – then we could have an argument based on fact instead of speculation and hyperbole

  47. Complete conjecture on my part, but I think the slur wriiten on Escobar’s black was directed at Farrell.

    Furthermore, by JF’s own admission, he wasn’t always on the same page as AA this season.

    It’s quite possible that JF asked for an extension and the Jays dragged their feet. Faced with the prospect of being a lame-duck manager, JF hit the eject button like any rational person would do. He’s just lucky enough to have found a much more higher profile spot, he could’ve just as easily ended up in Cleveland had TF not been hired.

    I think this whole talk about a ‘dream job’ is really a means to let the Jays save face. If they were serious about extending him, I truly believe he would’ve stayed. Who in their right mind would really want to deal with the mess that is in Boston? Meddling ownership, a divided clubhouse, and a roster that is mostly filled with AAA players.

  48. I cant believe how upset people are over this.

    I didn’t see an uproar when jesse litsch left, and this is the equivalent of the same impact for next year.

    There is no impact. we will get a new manager. and the manager that everyone thinks stinks will be coaching a lackluster divisional rival.

    Everyone saying WELL HE HAD A 3 YEAR DEAL!! so what? What if we wanted to fire him, could he say WELL I HAD A 3 year deal.

    • that comment is stupid, even if he is fired he would still be paid 75% to sit at home.

    • Dude, Jesse Litsch is no longer under contract. He can do whatever he damn well pleases.

      Farrell was reportedly asking to go elsewhere early on in his three-year commitment. That stinks and he should have been canned or traded on the spot.

      Yes, teams have the right to fire a guy before a contract is up. But coaches/players don’t have the right to stop working and go work for another team.

  49. I assume they won’t announce the new manager before the end of the WS? (That is assuming they will find a manager before the end of the WS…)

  50. Make it stop!!

    Can we please have a posting that breaks down all the potential managers with their upside, downside, history, and likelihood of coming to Toronto.

    We just got dumped. It’s time to hit Plenty of Fish and get our pipes cleaned. Stop fucking worrying about what the ex is doing.

  51. Stoeten why don’t you give up your complete blue jays apologist position for once ! Like your the only one who knows anything about the jays inner workings. And your obvious hate for the sun colors your view of what has transpired. I think their is little doubt that Farrell told Boston he wanted their managers job or made it known through back channels that he wanted out of Toronto. If he truly wanted that job how could he not, right? And with the performance during his introduction as manager shows what kinda “integrity” he really has and reinforces my position that there was tampering here but is completely impossible to prove and I don’t think it will productive for the jays to dwell on this for one more second. Although wouldn’t it be great to see some passion from AA and go on tv to rip Farrell and drag him under the bus with him. Adding more fuel to this rivalry !

    • +1.

      Farrell fooled AA & the Jays who were mesmerized by rebuilding with someone from the red sox.

      The same story would play out if we had hired someone from the yankees.

      It’s clear that there was more friction between Farrell & AA than what was initially reported.

      AA is more willing to accept whatever budget is given to him.

      Let’s say hypothetically Rogers ordered AA to cut the payroll for 2013 to $50 million for whatever reason. Financial crisis etc..

      I have no doubt AA would dump Bautista, Morrow & whoever he could & take back cheap prospects.

      He coud spin a “new rebuild”. Give Bautista a chance to play in the playoffs etc..

      This blog would probably lap it up & give kudos to AA for getting rid of Jose before his decline.

      AA is too new in his career to resign over Rogers interfering in his rebuilding plans.

      He is a “good soldier” who will do whetever Paul tells him to.

      If I was in his shoes , in my early 30′s . I would follow those orders.

  52. Meh-enuf of this shit on Farrell-fuk it is becoming like one of those committees we get in Ottawa every few months “to study” something or other. I wanna hear how we are going to upgrade this fukin team. Maybe getting rid of a fukstik manager is the first step. Carry On.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *