Granted, it’s a relatively routine procedure– Dr. Lewis “Heathcliff” Yocum performed arthroscopic surgery to “clean up his left elbow,” according to a team release– but Ricky Romero went under the knife this week, and “PRP treatments to both knees to enhance the recovery of his quadriceps tendinitis.”

Yes, those PRP treatments– platelet-rich plasma– are what caused the career-threatening injury to Jesse Litsch last spring, but they too are rather routine.

Romero, we’re told, will need about six weeks to recover. So, he’ll be long ready for next spring, assuming all goes well.

Now then, what do we make of this?

On one hand, it’s impressive that Romero dragged himself out on the mound for as long as he did, and managed to pitch without a loss of velocity, or with a discernible change in his mechanics– at least from what I remember of those who had bothered to look closely at it, though a tweet from @James_In_TO showing his release points from 2011 and 2012 suggests that may not have been so (I’ve suggested that the differences may have arisen from tinkering that happened after he started struggling, though I haven’t actually dug into what we might be seeing just yet– and, frankly, probably won’t).

On the other hand, not that I’m anything like the fucking first to do so, but if you’ve been listening to the Getting Blanked Podcast lately you’ll have heard me say guys need to be congratulated for taking themselves out of ballgames when they’re hurt, rather than damaging the club– and possibly themselves further– by trying to play through injuries. So part of me wonders just how smart it possibly could have been for the Jays to allow Romero to keep running himself out there the whole time.

That criticism, however, only works on the assumption that the issue was simply soreness that Romero was believed to be able to pitch through, or that the pitcher himself was actually up front with the club about the nature of the injury. Does the fact that the surgery didn’t happen until now suggest something like that? I don’t think we can possibly know until they tell us, but if you really wanted to indulge yourself in some wild, irresponsible speculation… um… maybe?

Another question I don’t know the answer to: does it change how we view the Farrell-Romero relationship that seemed to sour by the end of the season, if it turns out that Farrell questioned the pitcher’s toughness while Romero was actually pitching through an injury?

Again… maybe. But, ultimately, at this point who really cares? Because the biggest question of all is, does this change anything about his performance, or how hopeful we should be for a return to form in 2013?

I wish I could say yes. We’ll see…

Comments (194)

  1. Is he going to the Red Sox also?

  2. John Fucking Farrett probably caused that – and he fucked up the draft positioning so RSux have a better pick than the Jays (and don’t tell me it doesn’t matter that the Giants got to pick Buster Posey 5th overall in 2008 and how that didn’t help their WS chances since then)

  3. It changes nothing. Sabbathia just recently had the same thing done and he pitched pretty well this year. It’s obviously just a little scope, nothing that suggests to me he was battling a serious injury all year. And he was horrible right from the start of the season. You can’t blame the injury on his early season woes if he’s only having surgery now.,

      • I suspect you’re pointing out that he was actually much better at the start of the year, yes?

        • Correct. He seems to have lost it around Mid-May.

          • Maybe June.

          • I don’t know that Romero was ever right last season. He piled up a lot of wins early but that was his the offensive efforts of the jays, not spectacular pitching from the future dodger.

          • How about we look at the actual link I included rather than just saying “naw, he wasn’t good in April and May”?

        • … And CC has a 100 million $ + contract on a consistent playoff team .. If pitching with similar ailments was so bad I would think Yanks would be ultra conservative too

        • If Ricky had enough bone chips in his elbow floating around they could definitely affect his performance. If they move, there’s always a possibilty that the chips can lodge in a position to cause pain.
          Also, quadriceps tendinitis can cause all kinds of problems. (We dont need to be reminded of McGowans plantar faciitis here) You cant pitch well if your knees are sore.

      • That’s pretty interesting. If you discount the first start on a cold day in Cleveland, he had 10 solid starts in a row, then it started to go south.

        You have to hope the elbow thing was the issue, but I guess we’ll never know.

    • I would say it did. Ricky was OK beginning of the season. not great but OK. After a daytime start against Texas which he threw ~120 pitches he got worst. I exactly remember that start which was his last before that long drought. he was well over 100 pitches and he came back to pitch eighth. After that start he was ten times shittier.

  4. I’m glad Heathcliffe took a look at him and decided he didn’t need Tommy John. Control goes before you need Tommy John, and well, his control wasn’t so great of late.

  5. Maybe he went in for Rookie of the Year surgery. That’d be sweet. Even if that movie sucked.

    • Shoot, meant to link his twitter post:

      John Lott‏@LottOnBaseball

      MRI was inconclusive. Doc said couldn’t tell what was going on without scoping. Gave option of cortisone shot or surgery. RR chose surgery.

      • My initial thought was maybe it was a bone chip. Supposedly you can pitch through them so long as you can tolerate the pain. Cole Hamels pitched with one a couple years ago and was able to do so effectively.

        However, I feel like that would have been pretty clear from an MRI.

  6. youkilis is on the market

  7. ChiSox just reupped Peavy, so that dream is dead….

  8. Option 2 from the ChiSox (Floyd) had his option picked up as well

    • Floyd could still be traded. Picking up the option just confirms he has positive trade value at $9 mil.

  9. I am starting to wonder if the starting pitching is going to get snapped up very quickly this winter. With the extra TV dollars floating around I think there’s going to be a lot more bidders than even last winter for the better guys considering that there’s not a lot of them. At least Peavy seemed to set the tone for the rest of the free agent pitchers minus Greinke at roughly $15 million per year.

    I doubt Sanchez will get that much per year but it wouldn’t surprise me if he got 5 years being that he’s only 29.

    That said, I just can’t get past the irrational notion that the Jays will be giant flops in the free agent market.

    Youkilis is pretty intriguing except the Jays have a logjam at 1st, 3rd and DH already. If either he or EE could play a decent left field then I’d be all in on him but that’s not really the case. Also as a the right handed portion of a platoon at DH he’d be pretty limited in his AB’s and there’s no way he’d come here for playing time like that. Kind of a pity too considering his career .928 OPS vs lefties.

  10. Davidi said payroll is expected to be between 90-95 million for next year.

    Congrats, Rogers, you will have finally caught up to the year 2000 payrolls of the Yankees and Red Sox.

    A 90 million dollar payroll would put the team 15th in spending in 2012.
    A 95 million payroll would put the team 13th in spending in 2012.

    It would definitely be a step forward for the team if they can at least be middle of the pack.

    • Davidi seems to imply $90 – $95 mil is the minimum. Obviously there is no reason to expect Rogers to raise above the minimum, but it’s really just a guess.

  11. This is from a Davidi piece, where he tries to guess how much money the Jays have to spend this offseason. He guesses 2013 payroll to be between $90-95M and notes:

    “Depending on where the ceiling lands, that leaves Anthopoulos with at least $11-$16 million free to upgrade the roster, plus the special allowances team president Paul Beeston often speaks of should a special opportunity arise.”

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/10/30/davidi_jays_offseason_anthopoulos_ready_to_gamble/

    Let’s all hope Davidi’s speculation is off the mark, and the Jays have more than $11-16M in payroll flexibility offseason. The Jays need 2 SPs and a LF at a bare minimum. $11M might get the Jays a couple Joaquin Benoits.

    • If that’s it then he’s going to have to empty the farm system to get reasonable arms in return. That’s a fucking joke of an amount. That’s still less than what they spent in 2008 especially when you adjust for the dollar and inflation which comes out to roughly $103 million.

      Here’s how what I wrote a couple of weeks ago.

      Position Players – Starters (7 out of 9): JPA, EE, Lawrie, Escobar, Rasmus, Jose, Lind
      Position Players – Bench (3 out of 4): Mathis, Davis, Aviles

      Total Cost for 2013 for 10 position players: $41.95 million
      Holes to Fill: 2nd Base, Left Field, 4th Bench Player

      Starting Pitchers (3 of 5): Romero, Morrow, Alvarez
      Relief Pitchers (5 of 7): Janssen, Santos, Delabar, Lincoln, Loup

      Total Cost for 2013 for 8 pitchers: $24.4 million
      Holes to Fill: 2 starters, 2 Relievers

      Total Cost for 2013 for 18 players: $66.35 million
      Additional Costs*: $4.25 million
      Grand Total for 18 players: $70.55 million

      *McGowan, Hechavarria

      I didn’t include Happ or Jenkins in the rotation or relief at this point as a lot will depend on what happens with someone like Oliver and free agent acquisitions. I suppose you could remove Alvarez as well and deduct the $0.5 million I allotted for the other pre-arb players like JPA, Lawrie, Loup, Delabar, and Lincoln. I gave the arb players like Rasmus and Aviles 10% raises over last year’s salary.

      So basically the Jays are at $70-71 million with 7 roster spots to fill as things stand now.

      As you can see if you start to fill the other slots with guys like Happ or Oliver you start approaching $95 million very quickly. Now I don’t know where he got the $95 million from but that’s hardly a boost all things considered especially when you factor in the additional $26 million on it’s way next year.

      Having said all of that, the $95 million figure would be totally in line with Rogers cheap ass history.

      • I totally agree with you Night manimal..

        AA has said this offseason that they’re ready to focus on the FA market

        If that’s adding 11 million to the payroll? Honestly, that’s bullshit.

        Hopefully Shi is off … and I’m not a ‘Rogers are assholes’ type… but this is a time where a major investment in the team seems necessary. And if they’re not willing to do that then they can fuck right off.

    • Honestly if they only have $16 million to spend I would rather see them spend it all on one or two players than to spread the wealth and get a few mediocre players. You can always get replacement level players from the farm, and if they’re only a little above replacement level why are you paying them?

      • While I agree with you in principle, the notion that replacement-level players are abundant on the farm is false. Yes, I know they’re called replacements, but the fact is that a whole shitbag full of pitchers were brought up from the farm last season, and few of them could adequately be called replacement-level. Most were worse than that.

  12. 95 is not nearly enough in the AL East. 125 for the market size is where they need to be consistently.

    • Would love to see AA have authority to $125M. Likely, this will never happen though, not with current ownership.

      Having said that, I think that there is some wiggle room to bump up the payroll parameters to the $110M range, especially if the Jays are in line to sign a quality free agent.

      Attendance is up 15% in 2012 and the new television money is in the pipeline.

      Just basic math tells us that with a 15% increase in attendance, then a commensurate 15% increase in payroll would bring the Jays to the $97M range. Adding a quality free agent would be another $10M-$12M, you are up to $107M to $109M.

      Anything short of this would be a fucking sad joke.

      • I don’t believe 95 is where they’ll be next year. I think it’s going to be 110. Of course, AA is not going to advertise that for obvious reasons. I would add another $10 for being in Canada, as some FAs don’t want the hassle at the border etc, etc. Sometimes you have to make up for the hassle with a bit more money. If we start winning again, then the hassle money is less of an issue.

      • You’re basic math is incorrect. Attendance being up 15% doesn’t mean payroll should move 15%. It means that the portion of payroll that comes from attendance should rise by 15%. What that number is though, I have no idea.

        • Yeah, I realize that. Just saying that Beeston promised more payroll if and once attendance goes up. 15 percent sounds about right to me.

    • +1. I think 125 is justifiable based on market size & they had a very low budget 2010-2012.

      • I would be all for a jump to $125M. But I am not expecting anything close to that, unless AA and Beeston convince those fuckers at Rogers that signing a big free agent will take them over the top.

        Other than a Greinke (who will never come to Toronto) or a Hamilton (who really wants him?), I don’t see any big-ticket free agents that fit that description.

        Likely to be in the $100M range, with a window to $110M if AA can sign a FA.

        • I can see the $125M being a reality soon, but to start the season I find it unlikely. I’m guessing it will be a little higher than Davidi’s prediction at $100M.

          • I’m with you guys. But Davidi seems to be the most plugged in these days, in terms of scoops etc (Because he works for Rogers, I’m sure)

            I wouldn’t be shocked at all if 95 is the number, as he speculates.

  13. If this is a) not a super serious surgery and b) somehow actually corrects whatever was wrong with Ricky last year, then everything else is gravy? Having him back in 2010-2011 form next year would take a huge question off the table. Fingers crossed on that front.

    • You nailed it. It would be gravy if he went back to 2010-2011 form. That would give them two potential #2′s if you count Morrow in that slot. I do think Morrow has the stuff to be a true #1 but he’s got to prove it for a full year imo. Throw a couple of #3′s and that’s a very decent rotation to go with a solid bullpen and hopefully an offense that can repeat it’s first half performance of 2012.

      • Im relieved there was actually something physically wrong with Romero (unless it turns out to be really serious).

        At least now there might be a reason for his shittiness.

  14. dan haren still not picked up by the angels, yet potential #2 for the jays?

  15. I can’t see Romero doing any worse than he did this year. He either improves or he will find himself off the team.

    • how many years did we say that about Lind?

      • +1. Surgery is always worrisome for a pitcher.
        Why were he Jays hiding Romero’s surgery?

        IS JP Riccardi back as a consultant to AA?

        These shenaningans by the front office are getting surreal.

        My suspicion is that the ringlings brothers circus has set up shot at rogers centre

        • What the fuck are you talking about Oakville?

          Hiding the surgery? On what are you basing this dipshit?

          How you are presumably a functional member of society is beyond me.

        • well the surgery was said to be routine. the Lind comment is sadly spot on though. if Romero shits the bed next year and is still considered one of our starters then we are in rough shape.

  16. This is probably handy for everyone:
    Immediately after World Series – Eligible players hit free agency
    Three days after World Series – Option decisions due
    Five days after World Series – Qualifying offers due
    Six days after World Series – Free agents can sign contracts with teams other than their former clubs
    12 days after World Series – Players must accept or reject qualifying offers
    November 7th – 9th – GM Meetings
    November 20th – Deadline for setting 40-man roster in advance of Rule 5 Draft
    November 30th – Deadline for teams to tender contracts to arbitration eligible players
    December 3rd – 6th – Winter Meetings
    December 6th – Rule 5 Draft takes place at Winter Meetings
    January – Teams, players exchange arbitration figures
    February – Arbitration hearings take place

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/10/offseason-calendar.html

  17. The Angels really sound like their gonna retain Torri Hunter. My guess is Harens option is not picked up. They have too many big contracts IMO but who knows

    • He’d be 2nd choice after Melky for left field imo. As both are right handed hitters that would work well along with Davis as 4th outfielder to DH vs Lefties. That way you’d have no reason not to send Lind to the bench vs Lefties.

      I’d think Melky would be the better hitter with something to prove, but Hunter has the veteran leadership intangibles by all accounts that would play very well in the Jays clubhouse.

  18. And Beltran says he was never formally made an offer by the jays however Davidi says he was offered 3/39mill. Who the fucks doing the bullshitting??

    • Sounds like the Giants made an offer that wasn’t passed on either. I’ve read other articles about his agent and let’s just say according to them he’s very sketchy so who knows?

      If in fact the Jays offer was legit then that gives me some small hope that we’ll see the Jays payroll at least $110 million. If you included Beltran’s contract minus what he went out and spent on guys like Coco at the last minute you’re probably looking at close to $90 million last year.

    • When did this news come out??

      I can’t recall AA ever saying he offered 39 million to Beltran or anyone else.

      • AA doesn’t announce rejected contract offers like he’s fucking CNN.

        • Why did he make a big deal about it at the winter meeting or season ticket holders. ??

          He can’t play both sides.

          He wants to brag to the fans that his generous ffersare refused in Feb 2012. The guy he supposedly offeredthe money to denies there was ever an offer in July 2012.

          So now we get the specific contract details in October 2012?

          That makes no sense.

          • It’s been stated before, but the implication is that the Jays floated an offer to Beltran’s camp and the Jays were told Beltran didn’t want to come to TO, likely due to the turf. And so a formal offer was never made.

  19. I dont understand why either side would lie about an offer to Beltran. If he turned it down the jays offer then so be it; He has every right to choose where to sign but why the bullshit??
    Same goes for the jays front office. Whoevers doing the bullshitting I just don get the reasoning for it. Fuckin stupid!

    • Beltran said he didn’t get an offer from the Jays.

      The Jays say they made an offer to someone who turned them down.

      Did AA make an offer to someone else. that was rejected?

    • Why is Davidi coming out nearly 4 months after the all star break to anounce that the Jays offered Beltran 3/39 & he took 2/26.??

      That sounds like a make believe offer now that the Jays PR Dept has botchdthe year.

      Where was Shi Davidi in July with this info or even last winter?

      Next thing we will hear from Shi that the Jays missed out ondarish by 1 million & offered Cecil 2213 million but he took 214 million from Detroit.

      • Typos.

        So the next repor tfrom ace reporter Shi Davidi will be that the Jays bid 51 million for Yu Darvish, but the Rangers out bid them by 700K.

        The Jays also offered 220 million to Prince Fielder but he took 214 million from detroit

        That is BS. It’s outrageous that the Jays PR dept is feeding Davdii with this c*ap.

        If there was any truth to this information it should have been released before the season started.

        • Again if you stop and look at all the less than stellar things written about his agent you’ll realize that you have to give the team the benefit of the doubt in this case. San Fran also said they made an offer which was never presented to Beltran. So basically you have two teams saying similar things. It’s not out of the realm of possibility. Last of all, say what you want about AA but liar shouldn’t be one of them.

          If you want look at it from Beltran’s perspective, all that he put at risk was the third year of the contract. It’s not a stretch to say that if he’s healthy and producing he won’t be able to recoup some of that by signing with another team. This way he’s got 2 years with a team that’s been in the playoffs plenty over the last decade. At most he risked a few million for a much better chance at a WS. For a guy that has made $150 million in his career heading into 2013, I’d say leaving a couple of million on the table isn’t the end of the world, nor is he the first player to do it.

          • OK that’s a fair point that Beltran wants to be on a winning team . Cardinals better than the jays.

            So the Jays have to overpay on an annual dollar basis not just contract years.
            .

            So the Jays should target players that aren’t as keen on winning a world series or being on a playoff team & haven’t made enough money in their career?

            It seems to be a dereliction of duty of a baseball agent to not present all offers to a player, good/bad or indifferent.

            A real estate agent has to present low ball bids to their clients whether they like it or not.

        • That is ridiculous Oakville. Absolutely ridiculous.

          Do you think the average fan gives a fuck that the Jays offered Carols Beltran an OK contract offer?

          Like… that the Rogers ‘PR team’ is sitting around thinking … ‘hey! lets get Shi David to put out there that we made an OK offer to an older DH last offseason! That’ll get em off our backs!’

          It’s so absurd.

          • The average fan cares about the product on the field.

            The perception last offseason is that the Jays were afraid to trade prospects or sign free agents.

            In the past two weeks, the manager has walked out on the team & a respected 3B coach with 10 years in the organization has left for Boston as well.

            It seems to me that the Jays are trying to tell fans now that they are serious about spending to offset the perception that the team cannot compete.

            The team completely botched the Darvish fiasco by staying quiet, letting sportsnet hype the announcement, then losing the bid.

            Then AA goes on PTS & says he was never going to spend 100 million on any free agent. Fielder or darvish.

            If AA wasn’t serious about Darvish, why not send out negative signals & let Davidi write an article last January saying the jays don’t like darvish .

        • @Oakville

          If Davidi actually wrote a column saying the Jays offered Fielder 200 million and bid 50 for Darvish, maybe you’d have a point.

          But he wrote they offered Beltran a 3 year deal. At 13 million a year. A) That is hardly a stretch, Jesus. B) Nobody but hardcore fans like us will notice that or give a crap. Nobody would have any reason to lie about it.

          • @James.

            I find it very odd that specific contract offers are coming out now for Beltran.

            Why weren’t these details provided after Beltran said at the all star game he didn’t get an offer from the Jays.

            Davidi always has inside info on the Jays so why did he keep it a secret?

            It’s like Blair bragging about Marcum not returning to the Jays beause of clubhouse issues. What exactly are these clubhouse issues??

  20. Agreed on Hunter. The Jays are starving for some veteran prescence like Hunter who still by all accounts packs an awesome skill set.
    And speaking of Melky im interested to see what length teams will covet his services after his PED fiasco.

    And I see Tampa has exercised option on Shields for 10mill. No surprise there. I wonder if they will play out that remaining yr on contract or entertain offers for him?

    • soif tampa picked up shields option they must be declining upton’s?

    • Screw veteran presence? The jays are starving for someone who can play a decent left field and hit league average. I couldn’t give two shits if that is a guy with “veteran presence” or not.

      • Hence the line “very good skill set”. And if you dont think Hunters character n veteran leadership isnt a compliment to his above average skillz and arent important attributes to this young team then you need to give yer fuckin head a shake

  21. Let the inflation for pitchers begin! League just scored a 3 year deal for $22.5 million from the Dodgers. Not too shabby for a pitcher who accumulated a total of 1.4 WAR over the last 3 years.

    • If Brandon League gets 22 million for 3 years,

      I can’t see Shaun Marcum accepting less than 3/33 .

      i don’t know f AA will have the stomach to pay these inflated amounts for pitching.

      He was warned last year but missed the boat.

      He’s backed into a corner this year because of the poor wasted season 2012.

      Can AA convince Jays fans to wait till 2014 or 2015 for the Lansing trio?

      Maybe the Jays could offer trips to Jays fans to visit Lansing to see the future hope of the franchise?? Bus trips to Michigan with hotel packages.?

      • Take your finger off the panic button. Let’s wait a few weeks until we bitch and moan about what AA did or didn’t do.

        FA acquisitions won’t be the only way we acquire talent.

        • Some days it’s hard for a little bitch like me not to bitch and moan. Maybe it’s the menopause, maybe it’s the depression, but bitching and moaning is all I got.

        • OK, but it’s not looking good for AA when Brandon League
          gets 22.5 million over 3 years as a reliever.

          AA doesn’t like paying that for starting pitching.

          Peavy at 20 million is gone?

          Marcum will probably get 12 million per year.

          • Peavy’s new contract terms from MLB.

            And on Tuesday, the White Sox desire and Peavy’s desire officially came together in a two-year, $29 million extension for the talented right-handed starter.

            The contract calls for Peavy to receive $14.5 million in both 2013 and ’14. If he reaches certain innings-pitched thresholds over the course of both the 2013-14 seasons, he can extend the contract to include the ’15 season at a salary of $15 million.

            A $22 million option was held by the White Sox on Peavy for the 2013 campaign, with a $4 million buyout. Peavy will receive that buyout payment in equal installments from 2016-19.

  22. So confusing that PRP treatments are allowed (effectively a form of blood doping – the kind that Lance Armstrong did) and then HGH is not…

    • It depends on whether it’s for injury or increasing performance.
      believe it or not steriods can be legally used in treatment.
      There are legitimate uses for many illegal substances.

    • lets put some PRP in adam lind’s back

      • @Jays 2010

        “It’s been stated before, but the implication is that the Jays floated an offer to Beltran’s camp and the Jays were told Beltran didn’t want to come to TO, likely due to the turf. And so a formal offer was never made.”

        OK so if turf is the issue, why is AA even bothering making offers.?

        His first question should be is Toronto your “dream” team.?

        His second question is “Do you like turf?”

        The Jays PR dept is making things worse by sending out team lackeys like Davidi to spin that the Jays aren’t cheap.

        Can’t wait for AA to say on April 1 2013, that he had an authorized budget from Rogers for 125 million but he could only spend 87 million because no one wanted to play in Toronto.. Of course, he will tout the extra 2 million as “increasing payroll”

        • Yes, because this dream team bullshit was a necessary question last offseason.

          Players rarely play for their dream team. They often chase down every last dollar and/or go to a team that can contend for the playoffs. Often times teams that spend money are in playoff contention. Go figure.

          • AA knew in February 2012 that he had a manager named Farrell who didn’t really wan tto be on the team.

            Couldn’t AA figure outthat Valentine would blow up in beantown, & Farrell would be out the door ASAP unless the Jays won the World Series.

            The last offseason was a disappointment with Darvish & biggest free agent signing was Oliver & Coco.

          • @HJays2010.

            If we were to believe AA he offered the same dollar value as what the cardinals offered beltran.

            Maybe AA is afraid of paying a player more than what bautista makes per year?

            AA did not offer a higher salary to beltran, only 1 more year guaranteed.

        • Okay you convinced me.
          The Jays are doomed.
          So the answer is
          Get rid of Rogers as an owner.
          What mystery billionaire is available even if Rogers was motivated to sell?
          Maybe get rid of Beeston.
          How about a guy who’s built World series winners before.A guy who was the president and COO of MLB.Who has a ton of contacts, at the highest levels of baseball?Somebody with that experience and knows everything about FA rules,CBA rules and can game the system cause he helped design it.
          Must get rid of AA.
          Get someone known for ground breaking contracts that are now copied by others.Somebody to take advantage of the rules so much that MLB will need to change them. Someone that can manipulate the draft to sign unsignable players and come within $300 of the draft spending limit. Somebody that can assemble an army of scouts and sabermetric guys to take the farm system from 29th to top 5.

          Mistakes have been made and the Jays are cautious about repeating them.Remember, learn from your mistakes.

          So who’s gonna be the replacements for all of this and whats their pedigree?

          I want names not conjecture.

          • Haha!

            Thank god there are a few people out there with a little perspective. Fuck, the FA signing period hasn’t even started and people are ready to run AA out of town.

          • the owner of the jack jaguars is some pakistani guy I saw on 60 minutes. he would fit perfectly here.

            I actually believe rogers would sell if they made a hefty profit. Rogers seems to be shortsighted. The fact that they refuse to spend anything on the jays to increase the value shows this.

          • AA gets one more year to get this team going and he’s going to have to do it with a hand up his ass until the team starts winning games. He needs to acquire a legit #1 starter and high OPB guy at the top of the lineup for the Jays to have any chance next year.

          • @Radar.

            Are you impressed with the compensation that Beeston got for Farrell & now Butterfield?

            There are reports of friction between Rogers & Beeston reported by Stephen Brunt.

            If Roger were to put the Jays up for sale, I am sure Bell would be interested.

            I think eventually the Jas will be merged into MLSE. Lots of back office savings & cross ticket selling opportunities.

  23. maybe if alex would stop lying all the time, people would believe him

  24. I like Adam Jones but him winning the gold glove over Trout is a travesty.

    Romero will be fine, he just needs the off season to bang some strange.

    Loved the article about the profar-d’arnaud trade, Espn should hire those kids.

    Stotes – even though you stole my uterus this season I admire how you’ve stuck to your guns on AA. Sidebar, I agree with you on him. (not that you’ll give a shit)

    Lastly – Get that Potatoes guy on your payroll, that son of a bitch is entertaining. (when he’s not hitting on nurses or trying to convince you that wine trumps rum)

    • Guys I’d love to see trade targeted:

      Josh Johnson – as I’d been posting for 4 months.

      Jason Kubel – they still have 4 OF’s for 3 positions after Young trade.

      Dee Gordon – (I know this may seem strange considering we have Mariconi and cheese plus Hechavarria but Gordon stole 32 bases in only 87 gamesin 2013. He’s blocked by HanRam and he hit .304, .325, with 27 steals last year.

      Dustrin Pedroia – The sox top prospect is Xander Bogarts a ss and the have Jose Iglesias(who they paid a shit ton) and they have middlebrooks, Ivan de Jesus Jr, Ciriaco, Valencia and Cechinni all vying for the infield at a fraction of the cost.

      Any Braves pitcher – as usual they are absolute whores with a huge stable of arms

      CJ Crohn – I have no reason to believe that the Halos would have any motivation to trade him other then it’s a position of strength. He’s blocked by Pujols, Trumbo and Morales. Kid can flat out rake.

      Justin Morneau – I know, Canadian, you’re thinking that’s the reason. No, he’s coming off a serious concusion and I think he’s undervalued. If Minny ate a large portion of his contract I’d love to see AA get this guy.

      • Agreeable post.

      • Add Ike Davis and Jose Altuve (blocking deshields JR) to that list and remove the little dustin dream and it’s a pretty good and semi relistic list….Dee Gordon will prolly end up at second considering his defensive shitbaggery…

  25. I love wild irresponsible speculations

    good post

  26. I hate this concept of the jays having some sort of payroll floor they must hit in order to not piss of the “fans”

    if the guys who are available aren’t worth the money, then please dont just spend it to make some inane “statement”

    Looks like most teams are gobbling up their own players who are worth anything.

    Im not thrilled about giving ten million a year or there abouts to the likes of marcum for three years.

    • No one is thrilled paying higher prices for pitchers. It has been obvious for the past two years that MLB has more revenues to spend on players. it used to be only the red sox & yankees had big tv deals, so they used the money to buy players.

      Now, even smaller markets like the Reds can pay 200 million plus for Joey Votto.

      Rogers & AA will have to step up & pay for pitching or they can stay locked up at 1 Blue Jays Way & try to convince fans that getting another Laffey or Jo Jo Reyes will work out.?

      It’s not like the cost in prospects is any cheaper. Lawrie for Pineda who ended up on the DL.

      The price for Gio was very high last year as well.

      AA wasted last year trying to cobble together a starting day rotation with McGowan, Cecil, Drabek etc were in the mix & it failed.

      Now the Jays can tell fans to go to hell & wait for the lansing trio in 2014 or 2015, but that’s not the best way to sell tickets & tv revenue.

      • The “lansing trio” just finished in… Lansing.

        That leaves Dunedin, NH and Buffalo as stops they’ll likely have to hit before getting to Toronto. At the most optimistic, they’ll likely spend half a season at one of those stops prior to being shot to the next level. I think AA has shown he doesn’t want to rush these guys.

        So, if we’re looking at 2.5 years minimum before we see them in Toronto, start looking beyond 2015. before they get here… then how much longer after that before they start making meaningful contributions?

        • @allisauce.

          Thanks for the info.

          Since the Lansing trio won’t arrive before 2015, why does AA keep Bautista on the team??

          Wouldn’t it make sense from an AA perspectiveto sell Bautista now, so he could get a #1 or 2 premium starter?

          Is AA worried that fans would be upset about waiting till 2015 to try and compete?

    • I hate people who think that it’s easy to replicate the Tampa Bay Rays.

      You’re right about not just making a statement but there are ALWAYS at least a few players that are worth what they make. Look at Texas since from your tone I presume you have a boner for Jon Daniels’ work. Adrian Beltre. Yu Darvish. Let me put that one in caps so you can properly contrast it with what the Jays did not do. YU DARVISH!

      Good teams look at the holes in their rosters and make moves to fill them. Shitty teams look at holes in their rosters and hope that A level prospects will be ready to fill them in five years. If that’s what you want from the team you should move to Texas – you and Rick Perry can pray for rain when it’s dry out.

      • @Ray.

        Agreed.

        The Jays know thatt hey suffer a disadvantage with free agents who don’t want to come to Toronto because of weather, customs, lack of espn, etc…

        They know they have to a pay a premim to get free agents.
        So darvish comes up for bids & the Jays pass because they want to give Laffey, McGowan a chance.
        Mcgowan can ‘t even get on the field without hurting himself.

        they should buy him a golf cart so he doesn’t hurt himself.

        • oakville69 remains the worst.

        • I don’t really buy any of your arguments there. Actually, I do kind of remember that they wanted to see what they had with Laffey, McG and Cecil (note: fuck) but in the end it just came down to money. I’d like to be able to say that AA thought the talent wasn’t worth the cash, but given that he has a million fucking scouts I keep coming back to the sinking feeling that he went to Beeston who went to Rogers who told them to fuck off and make more Lawrie posters.

          Bringing it back to the top comment, that’s why he’s a dumbass. Sometimes it is important to sign free agents because building a team is not an exponential progression. As the prospects get closer to competing, the stars (Jose, EE) get further. You need to decide whether it’s your time or not and act accordingly, even if your options are not objectively perfect.

          • @Ray agreed.

            It was very risky for AA to sign Darvish given he had no mlb competition.

            However , it’s a balancing act.

            Bautista may not recover in 2013 to be a 50HR threat.

            Edwin is a good replacement, but Rasmus & Lind are playing below expectations.

  27. ^ I would totally give Marcum 3/30

    • If Brandon League is getting 7.5 million as a reliever, & Peavy gets 15 million a year , doesn’t Marcum get north of 10 million per year?

      • Yes. So what? Do you honestly expect Marcum will make that big of a difference for this team? Why are we wasting time talking about a guy who is a round-out-the-rotation guy, aside from the fact that he used to be here and was the ace? He’s not an ace now, and really only was then because no one else would step into the role. Paying 10+ MM for him ensures that the team doesn’t have enough financial flexibility to bring in the ace that they really need, whether through free agency or through trades.

        As I’ve posted previously, Marcum and his ilk are absolutely not what the team needs. The back end of the rotation should be owned by Johnny Wholestaff to encourage up-and-comers to continue to progress. Locking up guys like Marcum means that there’s no room if Brett Cecil figures it out, or Dustin McGowan makes a comeback, or any other scenario that doesn’t involve the pitching staff of the entire organization shitting the bed or getting hurt. Which, it seems, is what everyone around here seems to think is what AA should be anticipating, because it happened this year.

        Face it: it was a shit-luck year for a team that should have done better, and likely would have with fewer injuries. Spending the farm on a back-of-the-rotation pitcher ties up valuable financial resources on a position that we shouldn’t reasonably be expecting will be an amazing arm, as well as locks up a spot that should be fought for by the rest of the arms in the organization.

        • Marcum should be a reliable 200 inning pitcher at 3.70- ERA.

          Marcum is one of the few if any free agents who said he would come back here.

          Now Jeff Blair is reporting that Marcum annoyed the front office staff.

          AA doesn’t seem to want Carlos V back.

          What’s next?

      • Marcum is a guy you sign for 10 MM when you’re already competing for the playoffs and just need that added push. The Jays aren’t there right now, and shouldn’t spend their money on that.

        • I know we all miss Roy Halladay, but you’re going to need to accept that a lot of staffs don’t have a “true Ace.” Instead, they compete with a bunch of 2-4 guys who get hot for the year. To paraphrase Rick Pitino, Dave Steib isn’t walking through that door.

          Also, the fuck are you talking about when you say the back end of the rotation should be held open for newcomers. Firstly, who? Who the fuck are the newcomers? O ya, Brett Cecil? The 20 year old single A pitchers who won’t get here till Marcum is long retired?

          Secondly, did you not watch any Jays games this season? Did you learn absolutely fucking nothing about pitching depth? Because if you had you would realize how mind numbingly stupid you sound advocating that the Jays enter this season in the same place they were last season, without Drabek and Huchinson of course, on the off chance that “Brett Cecil figures it out” or “Dustin McGowan makes a comeback.” What is this, 2010?

          I mean holy fuck. I’ve seen a lot of stupid postings on this site about ways to solve the pitching problems, but you’re the first to go “what pitching problems?” In your universe do the Jays have dozens of AA and AAA pitching prospects waiting in the wings? Because in my world those guys look a lot like Jesse Chavez.

          • That’s a little over the top.

            What I mean to say is that locking up a 30 year old mediocre pitcher like Marcum for 3 years at 10 MM per season is a fine way to make it impossible to sign or trade for anybody who can be expected to outperform Morrow and Romero (assuming some kind of a bounce back), and who will cost 15-20 or more. I’m not talking about Roy Halladay, but Jake Peavy or Edwin Jackson, or Josh Johnson (once he gets a new contract) become awfully expensive when you’ve got 10MM locked up at the back end.

            Moreover, the idea that pitching depth is this absolute necessity is horseshit. Yes, a number of pitchers this year were lost to injury, and yes, those who stepped in didn’t perform. But, it’s totally unreasonable to try to plan for that when you’re a sub-500 team. Contingency plans become the priority when your plan A is already functioning, not when you’re still trying to figure out what plan A looks like, which, I would argue, is where the Jays are today.

            If you’re telling me that Shawn Marcum, as the fourth or fifth starter in the rotation is the plan A, then ok, I disagree with your plan, but I understand it. As I said, I’d rather the team keeps those slots open for lower-cost, lower-risk, developmental projects, and to have the financial resources to spend elsewhere. But to sign a guy for 30/3 because Henderson Alvarez, as a 23 year old, isn’t going to blossom in the next 3 years, and you’d rather tell him, Hutchison, Happ, McGowan, Jenkins, Drabek, McGuire, and Cecil (not that they’ll all be Cy Young winners, but one or two should be counted on to be everyday starters in the MLB during the next 3 years)… that the organization has given up on them, that they can try to bump Marcum and his 10MM salary out of a starting job, that they can maybe be the long man in the bullpen, that there may still be one spot left in the rotation for them, etc, then I think you misunderstand what it means to run an organization.

            It’s more than assembling a fantasy baseball team.

          • +1 Ray.

            The “let’s see what Cecil,Mcgowan,Litsh can do” ship sailed. last year.

          • I guess what this fundamentally boils down to is, what kind of stuff does Marcum have left in his tank. Ray, you’ve argued that Zito would be a terrible addition, and that you’d rather see Happ, Laffey and the rest of the scrubs in that 5th starter role. I agree. But I would lump Marcum in there with Zito, and would rather not sign him given the alternatives that exist to pitch in that slot.

          • Disclaimer: I fully admit that Marcum is worth more than Zito, who, if he only plays out the last season of his monster contract next year and is then bought out of his 2014 option, is owed $27 Million. Marcum, however, is not worth 30/3.

  28. Some guys that could be considered that don’t seem to be getting as much coverage (though some are getting a bit):

    Brett Myers (as a starter, not a reliever)
    Ervin Santana (if option declined by Angels – and if he could be had for less $)
    Barry Zito (for serious, if Giants would pick up a big chunk of cash)
    Joe Saunders
    Dallas Braden

    None of these guys come without some warts, but all are at least worth a look I’d say.

    • Call the Marlins and try to snag Josh Johnson. MIami has a slew of holes within that team and im sure Johnson could be had since he was rumoured to be on the block last season.
      I believe this is his last year on contract and AA often shy’s away from “uncontrollable” players but I say pull the trigger.
      And I would jump at Marcum for 3/30! Guys walks very few batters and has always put up strong ERA numbers in the 3.70 range. I believe hes only 31 or 32. Sign him up.

      And I hope we trade a catcher to Texas for a middle infielder. Preferably Arencibia, but those who think Profar would be coming back this way are dillusional.

      • I was going for some lesser discussed guys. Josh Johnson has been talked about a lot (and I’d absolutely want him here, yeah).

        I’m less enamoured with the idea of a trade with Texas for a MI. I don’t really hate the idea of having Yunel, Hech and Aviles as the 3 MIs for next year. Especially if it means that the offseason can been focused on upgrading SP and LF instead.
        So if Texas wants to send over a good Starter for JPA then I’m all for it!

        • I agree. We have several holes that need to be filled and obvious limits on how much the team will spend, whether in terms of dollars or prospect capital. The middle infield to me is the least pressing need, while SP is by far the number 1 priority, with LF number 2.

    • Wow, Barry Zito would definitely be treeeemendous in the AL East. No joke, I would rather have Laffey back than Zito, Myers or Saunders. Actually that’s not totally true, but if we’re gonna pick up those shitballers we’d might as well trade Jose and Edwin for prospects, call up Gose, Hech and Sierra and call it a decade.

      • I wonder if AA could sell Jays fans on another rebuild by trading Bautista for starting pitching.?

      • Yeah. We should just stick with Laffey, Happ and Cecil or something instead right?

        • Instead of Barry Zito? Ya, we probably should. Especially Happ.

          • Fine. Forget Zito then. I’m just throwing out names that deserve consideration. I’m not campaigning for them all out.

            I don’t think you can convince me that Myers or Saunders wouldn’t be a better middle/back-end starter than what the organization currently has available though.

          • Ugh. I mean, you’re probably right – Saunders could be kind of interesting in particular I suppose. It’s just such an underwhelming set of options.

    • Harren seems like the best option as he is the only one that profiles as a true #2 starter if he turns his game around. Anaheim are shopping him aggressively. If we pick up the full option ( 15.5 m), we may be able to get him for a mid level prospect ( Stillson, Pillar) The Angels want to throw money at Greinke and could pocket the 3.5m needed to buy Harren out.

  29. Only hope we have is find some knuckballers.

    • I’d try but I can’t throw a knuckler for shit.
      Maybe if I worked on my release point and arm slot, i’d get there.
      Actually,my grip isn’t that great either.
      At 78 i’d be one of the older players but I could still do some damage on the pregame buffet.
      Spring training would be cool but I ain’t running poles.I’ll leave that to the young’uns.

  30. Trade scenario:

    To Devil Rays: Morrow + Syndergaard + Gose + D’arnaud
    To Blue Jays: Price + Hellickson

    Jays pitching gets better without touching their current offence.

    • I think you got a little carried away there champ.

      • Ok. How about 2 trades then.

        1 Syndergaard + Gose + D’arnaud for Price
        2. Morrow for Hellickson

        That better?

        • I would not trade Morrow for Hellickson

          • What if it was part of a package? I dunno, maybe something like:

            Morrow + Syndergaard + Gose + D’arnaud for Price + Hellickson?

        • Ya, why would you trade Morrow for Hellickson. The Price deal is pretty interesting though. You think the Rays would hang up if you replaced TDA with JPA? Probably, right?

          • In my mind it’s a simple game to the Rays. Get years of control. Pay less cash. Even if TDA=JPA on those terms TDA is a better asset to them.

            From what I hear TDA>JPA so I think that Rays wouldn’t do it.

          • I would if I was them. Seems to me the rays model kinda buys into TDA more then a JPA.

            Since Shi pretty much came out and let the cat out the bag just do the math on what I suggested above. Who gave that asshole the number?

  31. Then trade a potential 1 WAR type prospect for Haren till some of the pitching returns. Now we’ve got a team that can compete.

    • Done and more done. Haren would be sick. Haren and one of the shitballers listed above by IMW and our staff looks pretty decent

    • One has to figure that AA is in the mix for Haren since we’ve heard nothing about it. If he wasn’t interested, there would be 1000 tweets saying how “AA checked in with Dipoto about Haren”, right?

  32. According to Blair, Marcum won’t be coming back as he pissed the front office off while he was here.

    Meanwhile I’m hearing all this stuff about who and how AA is interviewing. But despite all that noise it seems quiet. Too quiet. I wonder if he’s already got someone lined up.

    Of course I thought none of the other coaches would follow Furtive to Boston, so what do I know!

    • Sandy Alomar Jr. just announced as Cleveland bench coach for 2013 so scratch his name off the list too.

      • That’s annoying, he was my pick. But if he just signed as the Indians bench coach it means that he knew he wasn’t gonna be the Jays’ manager. And he was a finalist last time. So…

      • I’m going to be thoroughly disappointed if they take the easy way out and hire Wakamatsu. I want to see a wholesale shakeup, not something half-assed.

        • Though there is still a possibility if he has an out clause for a potential manager position. It could be that he wanted to make sure that he had a job next year locked up in case he’s not chosen by the Jays.

        • I thoroughly agree with that. I don’t want to see anyone from the last couple of season’s field field coaching squad back here for numerous reasons. Not the least of which was that those players were so woefully unprepared. With the exception of Jose and EE, the batters looked completely lost at the plate and didn’t seem to have a clue what was coming. And on the field the circus continued as well. The defence we did get, we got on natural ability rather than smart baseball. The coaches have to bear a lot of responsibility for that.

      • I don’t think that takes him off the list. It just means that if he isn’t named manager of the Jays (or Rockies or Marlins or whatever), he’s going to be the bench coach of the Indians.

    • What did Marcum do to the front office staff? Date AA’s wife?

  33. I think I read Haren is pretty much done. Wasn’t he in a fangraph article showing his velocity steadily dropping for the past 3-4 years?

  34. [...] injections to alleviate tendonitis in both knees. The elbow trouble came as a surprise to even the most ardent Jays fans, though in the wake of his ghastly walk rate (5.2 per nine), it made sense. The pitcher believed [...]

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