Juh? The Yan Gomes era ends, and… um… it would seem as though Alex Anthopoulos has something of a type, as he’s once again dealt for a hard-throwing right-handed reliever– albeit this time one who has only spent one full season in the ‘pen.

Ex-Jays MLB.com reporter, and the hardest working man in show business, Jordan Bastian, has the details:

Now, I mention the fact that Rogers has only one season under his belt in which he was a full-time reliever, but that’s maybe not as of interest as it seems, because in 2011 with Colorado he was below replacement level over 83 innings, including 13 starts and five relief appearances. He’s nobody’s rotation solution, I don’t think. However, he definitely had some success when he moved on to Cleveland mid-season last year, bringing his BB/9 rate down to 2.04– the first time in his career that he’d taken it below 3.25, though thanks to an atrocious start of the year in Colorado, his season rate was 3.43.

But he’s a hard thrower, averaging 95.6 on his fastball last year, and he misses bats at a decent, if about middle-of-the-pack rate for a qualified reliever. He doesn’t have a particularly troubling platoon split, his strikeout rate spiked up to 23.9% in 2012, and Bastian tweets that he appeared to be a setup man in the making, though he also wonders if Cleveland was smart in selling high, as the numbers Rogers put for the Rockies are pretty fucktacular.

Of course, that’s true of just about every Rockies pitcher, isn’t it?

Keith Law is on board:

Cheap is the key word there, as Rogers just missed being Super Two this year, and will be under team control through the end of the 2016 season, and making a whole lot less than it would have cost them to bring back Jason Frasor or Brandon Lyon, which allows the Jays to allocate precious resources elsewhere– and actually sheds a little bit of salary in the form of Aviles.

The deal also means the bizarre Yan Gomes preoccupation among far too many fans can mercifully end, and that we won’t be seeing something like an Aviles/Macier Izturis platoon at second base next season, which I certainly don’t think is the worst thing in the world, depending, of course, on what the club actually manages to do at the position.

I’m somewhat surprised that the Jays decided to move back to square one in the middle infield in order to make it happen, and I have no reason to be entirely confident that Rogers will necessarily just pick up where he left off in Cleveland at the end of last year, but as uninspiring as acquiring yet another bullpen piece may be, let’s not forget how far we saw an absolutely loaded ‘pen take the Baltimore Orioles and their shaky starting rotation this season.

It remains that relievers are a volatile lot, and not a particularly great or irreplaceable investment, but to me– and apparently to Alex Anthopoulos– that’s really only looking at it in a single-player vacuum. To have a large group of cheap, cost-controlled, hard-throwing, bat-missing relievers is a nifty asset for the club going forward, both on the field and in terms of resource allocation, even if it’s… y’know… kinda weird how they all got here.

And if it means the club gives Marcus Stroman the chance to fail as a starter before rushing him into their big league bullpen, all the better.

Of course, on the other hand, though, Anthopoulos may be pre-emptively building up bullpen depth in the knowledge that he’d going to have to trade some himself as the winter progresses. With second base, left field, DH, and two or three key rotation spots currently a bloody fucking mess, he’s certainly going to have to do something.

Comments (499)

  1. Just throwing this out there: Rogers traded for this guy because his name is just another Rogers ad on the back of the jersey.

    Beyond that…what the hell?

  2. either they think he can start or this trade sux

    • Good fucking lord.

      • I’m on a phone. have to be succinct. apologies.
        I don’t know Rogers but doesn’t this trade seem odd to you?

        • klaw likes the deal for jays.maybe I jumped the gun

          • Rogers is a legit power arm and was one of the Rockies better pitching prospects for a while. But, you know, Colorado ain’t great for pitchers.

          • Good point. I guess we’ll see.
            I think maybe I was overvaluing the benefit of having Aviles on the bench over say McCoy.
            But really in a utility role we’re talking like… what…. 10 extra hits and 1-2 extra HRs over the course of a year between those 2.

          • so you don’t form your own opinion? you just overreact for the sake of it and then calm down with keith law says too.

          • @joshua

            he was never considered a good prospect, his minor league numbers are very very not good

          • Yes dc that’s exactly what I did.

            Why don’t you pull that stick out of your ass and stop trying to pick a fight with every damned post you make on this blog.

          • *Keith Law likes it, better change my opinion to match status quo! wahoo!*

        • lol says the guy who started all this by trying to be a cool douche and say this trade sux!

          must suck to be wrong always

          • Might have been wrong in my first post, but I was sure right about you.

          • Yes he was. One of their better prospect though, never a top 100 guy. After 2009 he was rated as having the best control in the Texas League by BA and was a top 10 guy for the Rockies after 2008 and 2009.

          • Why are you bitching at the guy for revamping his opinion in light of what Keith Law says? It is entirely fucking reasonable to change your opinion if its because you listened to someone who knows more than you do. I falt our guarentee there isn’t a person on this blog right now who knows more than Keith Law does about the playes involved, so it would actually seem pretty stupid to go against him. Relievers are infinitley more valuable than non-starting roster players.

      • Hard throwing reliever with years of control for gomes and Aviles. I make that deal all day long.

    • Yes this deal will sink the franchise

      • Good Fucking Lord indeed. I make one poorly thought out post and the sarcasm squad comes out firing.

        I take it all back! Don’t lump me in with the reactionary twats.

        • Too late,IMW .
          You’re doomed.
          One bad comment and we throw out everything else you’ve posted.

          Just fuckin with ya.

          • It’s a cruel, cruel virtual world.

            Now changing my name to “IamW”I – no one will ever know!

          • +1. The hipsters are quick on the draw.

            This is an interesting trade. AA continues to try and build the bullpen.

            Who’s on 2B in 2013? Wasn’t that a comedy routine?

            Wouldn’t Escobar/Hech be a better combo than Escobar/Aviles?

            Would AA dare resign Kelly Johnson at a discount?

            His career numbers before 2011 were pretty good. Maybe he will be healthy in 2013?

          • @oakville69

            why do you start every post with +1

            your posts are the worst.

          • For fuck’s sakes oakville.
            This is the start of 4 months of movement.
            You gonna have to wait for your answers.
            AA ain’t consulting us while he’s making moves.
            He’ll let you know AFTER he makes them. .

          • Oh yeah, Oakville is the worst poster in the world.

          • Too late #REACTIONARY TWATED

  3. He had 13 starts in 2011. I assume the jays see him as a starter. Peripherals look great.

    I was looking forward to having a quality bench player like aviles.

  4. I think how I feel about this depends entirely on who ends up manning the infield in 2013.

  5. Here’s what Keith Law said:

    keithlaw ‏@keithlaw

    Slight preference for Rogers over Aviles/Gomes. Good cheap pen piece.

    That’s fine. I feel like the Jays need a 2nd baseman/utility infielder more than then need a middle reliever though.

    • An Aviles replacement wouldn’t exactly be hard to find. I just hope AA learned his lesson with bench depth and won’t have another Vizquel as the backup infielder. Aviles at least represented a competent option for that role.

      I’m not going to scream bloody murder until after that actually happens though.

  6. Excellent! Another club friendly contract because that and drafting is what it’s all about. Winning a World Series oe even your division is purely ancillary.

    • Gomes is at best, an end of the bench guy on a Major League roster, more likely a quad A guy. Aviles is a credible bench player, probably not much more. Nothing wrong with this trade at all.

    • You could look at it this way, another club friendly contract yes, but club friendly contracts allow a team to spend money else where,
      hopefully!

    • +1. Young controllable club friendly misunderstood fixable are key words used by the Jays in the AA era.

      The Jays bullpen was ranked 14th last year in the AL, so there is room for improvement.

      I assume Frasor & Oliver won’t be back.

      • Frasor & Lyon I suspect you are right about. This move is really to replace their spot. I would bet that right now, the BP Lefty situation is Cecil & Oliver now, and if Oliver retires, it is Cecil and Loup.

      • Yes, but the bullpen improved significantly at the end.

        There really isn’t any room if Santos is healthy and Oliver is back.

        Hell, Stroman might have to wait until September.

        • Who knows when Stroman’s suspension is up? I’m thinking roughly somewhere around the MLB All Star Break.

          Anyone?

          Bueller?

          • @CS
            50 minor league games , about mid season.
            Then he need some games to build up.
            September call up maybe.
            The way he was being rushed through the system seems to infer that he may have had a verbal agreement for a Sept.2012 call up.That and his “most MLB ready “status.
            I imagine that deal ( if there was one) is off the shelf and he’ll need to earn the call up.Not neccessarily a bad thing.

    • +10.

    • This trade just shows how expensive pitching is. If you’re giving up two depth guys for a below average reliever, imagine what a top reliever could yield.

      • I dont think hes below average. He throws 95 for Christ’s sake. If you throw 95., you are not below average. People forget that pitchers are the flukiest players to predict outside of goalies.

        • Yup. Halladay was fanfuckingtastic when he threw 95. That record he set for highest ERA for a starter over 60 innings is a real testament to that.

    • The Jays objective in 2013 is to play a meaningful game in September.

  7. i like, nice whip and some heat. gave up dick.

  8. I think you have to like this trade unless you wanted to give Aviles 300+ PA this season.

  9. word scramble, we can now say….

    Farrell leaving makes Rogers Smile

  10. I love how he is stockpiling arms. This is a good sign, because pitching wins baseball games, and that is the aim here, right?

    • good pitching wins baseball games. Mediocre to slightly-worse-than mediocre pitching actually loses games. Cost control, hope and pray is the Jays strategy in the AA/Beeston era.

  11. Off topic Stoeten.
    Congrats to Parkes’ “Sports on Earth ” gig.
    Actually,very well written.
    Interesting comment from a fan, Fadoobobcat, if it was really him.

  12. I just wish AA could have included more players and teams in the deal. 2 for 1 straight up seems like he is phoning it in.

  13. 27 yo with 1.35 service time with strong sierra and xfip’s last year (especially in cle) traded for spare parts. good trade.

    the new villanueva?

  14. Hm. Rogers had some bad numbers in Colorado, but he was good in Cleveland:

    53 IP 3.06 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 9.2 SO/9

  15. good news: MIke aviles wont be our starting second baseman next year.

    bad news: AA seriously fucking loves relievers

    • It’s just starting dc.it’s just starting.

    • Aviles not starting is only good if they can pick up someone better. I’m assuming Hech gets the call and he’s likely to be worse with the bat.

      It seems like we’re doing a lot of fucking around trading spare parts for other spare parts when we could be making real moves. Still no manager. Sounds like they’re not even really talking to anyone. Haren was available for nothing but money, Rogers passes as always. Could have put in an offer on Papi (that’s a pretty reasonable deal for him assuming your ownership isn’t made up of cheap fucks), AA sits on his hands.

      But you know, now we have an 11th man out of the pen, and Rajai Davis is locked up, so playoffs here we come.

      • +1. When can AA talk to Ortiz?

        Just for the sake of pushing up the price Ortiz signs with Boston.

        Given the chaos the red sox have caused the Jays in the last few weeks, I wonder if AA would be mischevious enough to offer Ortiz 2/28 just to make the redsox think twice?

        Would AA have the authority to make this deal or would have to wait to talk to Paul , who take to Pelley who talks to Mohammed etc..

        I wonder if AA was given a preliminary free agent budget to spend today or is it subject to multiple levels of approvals.

      • Dan Haren was also passed up by every other team in baseball except for the Cubs (who themselves decided to pull out for some reason). Do you presume to know something about him that no other baseball executive does? And we could not have put in an offer for Ortiz. The Jays were free to talk to him, but could not talk dollars or terms until today, which Ortiz chose to sign before. It is literally the start of free agency. Drawing conclusions about the entire offseason from this complete nothing move is absurd.

    • +1

  16. goodbye Frasor, have a great life, tried of your 2 outs them bammm.

    • Amen to that. Seemed to be his style-2 quick outs then he remembers he didn’t shut the porn down on his laptop- boom, tie game, go ahead runs ad nauseam.

  17. This may take a while, but we’re slowly building up to Craig Kimbrel for Farrell, the coaching staff, and 30 AAAA guys. In AA we trust!

  18. Why are the fuckin jays keep trading for relievers.

  19. I dont mind this at all. Gomes had no future in toronto and I was not looking forward to Aviles.

  20. Given the woeful starters I don’t blame him. But I wish he had JPR’s eye for a pitcher, I really do. Some of his bullpen additions have been awful.

    • Other than Cordero, there hasn’t been anything awful that wasn’t tied to a draft pick/trade asset.

      And JPR’s bullpen eye took years to form.

      And it was after a short stint of glaucoma that saw BJ Ryan being paid $47 million.

      • AA got damaged goods Santos from the White Sox for Molina.

        Will Santos be able to reclaim the closer role at some point in 2013?

        Hopefully he is better next year.

      • When BJ was juicing he could pitch. It was when he was clean that he became a real disaster. The guy lost at least a third of his upper-body mass by the beginning of that final season. JPR wasn’t always right but he brought in some pretty good bullpen arms if I remember correctly. He had no feel for a position player and its not like I want him back. He’s a clown. But I preferred his bullpens to what I’ve seen here so far.

        • Ricciardi brought in some shit arms too for all those pumping his fuckin tires. See Luke Prokopek lol i have no fuckin idea how to spell that name

  21. Here’s an article with a bit on Rogers from Sept 3 of last year:

    http://fantasycpr.com/2012/09/03/brad-bergesen-and-esmil-rogers-find-better-success-in-new-home-bullpen/

    “Esmil Rogers is now throwing 95-96 MPH with a little bit of movement and tail for the Cleveland Indians. He actually began the year averaging 96 MPH on his fastball with the Colorado Rockies. Used as a reliever by the Rockies, Rogers had a solid strikeout rate (22.1%) but walked too many batters and had serious problems with the home run ball. He was a slightly worse than average reliever according to FIP -. The Rockies then straight up sold him to the Indians after 25.2 2012 innings. In previous seasons, the Rockies used him as a starter 22 times and it was a disaster, as he gave up an OPS of .884 and had a K/BB ratio of just 1.60. Of course, Coors Field is known for being a disastrous place to pitch, and Rogers showed some awful splits there. In 77.1 innings at Coors, he had an ERA of 8.15 and WHIP of 1.901 despite a 8.7 K/9IP and 2.34 K/BB. The Indians must have seen this, and knowing that he wouldn’t have to pitch at Coors, picked him up. Since joining the team, Rogers has thrown 40.2 innings, is striking out more 26.7% of batters and walking just 4.9%. His FIP – with the Indians is 82, which is as good as Ryan Cook (an All-Star) and better than Boone Logan and Alexi Ogando.

    The big question is: why is Esmil Rogers walking so few guys? He has always been a guy who has struggled with walks, but hasn’t been walking hardly anyone since joining the Indians. There are a few different ways one could answer this. Perhaps this is just small sample size, 40 innings is too few statistically to decide who a pitcher is. The walks could come back and the value could come back down. Perhaps the move away from hitter friendly Coors Field has given him the confidence to throw strikes. Without being in Rogers’ brain, there is no way to know whether this is correct. There could have been a mechanical tweak that the Indians coaching staff used to get Rogers to throw strikes. Right now, we don’t know. As the sample sizes grow, we will see whether or not Bergesen and Rogers are for real.”

  22. god forbid a gm acquire a guy he thinks has more to give, you know, like in the future. #esmilbailey. also, cheaper.

  23. Two backups for a reliever who makes pennies. I like it.

  24. I doubt he’s moved to the rotation.

    Fuck, this bullpen is potentially pretty damn good for $10 million:

    Janssen, Santos, Delabar, Lincoln, Rogers, Loup & Oliver/Cecil.

    Goodbye Jason Frasor.

  25. Remember that story about the guy who started with a toothpick or something and then kept trading with people until he got a house…?

  26. guy averaged 95.7 MPH with the fastball. that alone makes him worth more then aviles/Gomes. he had good numbers with Cleveland.

    the deals not going to make or break the team either way…..but I’m far happier with a Farrell/Gomes for Rogers deal then I am with Farrell for Aviles.

    Farrell is the red paper clip of the baseball world. now we trade Rogers for something little better and so know and so on. eventually, we”ll have trade JF for Longoria.

    in truth though, bullpens are not sexy but are crucially important. to see what great bullpen can do on a mediocre team, look no further then your 2012 Orioles

    • Agreed.

      I’d never give a reliever a crazy Papelbon contract and I’d never go more than 2 or 3 years.

      But I value them more than their WAR numbers because they necessarily pitch at the end of the game.

      A strong bullpen, as unpredictable as it is, is pretty much the key to outperforming pythag.

    • Because he throws hard , that makes him more valuable than a major league average middle infielder?

      that is some serious blunt analysis.

      go down to A ball and AA and you can find several of these arms on every team..and only a very small percentage of them even sniff the bigs.

      • Billy Koch.

      • ok but Rrogers isn’t a minor league pitcher. he’s a major league pitcher, who’s already had success at this level. so yes, a major league pitcher with at least SOME history of success at the highest level…..who throws high 90′s heat…..is more valuable then a solid backup MIF

  27. Pitchers have more currency than backup middle infielders, so I’m ok wih this deal.

    Nothing matters unless the Jays add a couple legit SP’s though.

  28. Throws gas, good contrast to the soft tossing lefties in the pen. Good pickup if he’s kept.

  29. I almost look forward to these trades now just to watch commenters on The Score’s photo lose their shit. One guy said he’s losing faith in the Jays because Gomes was traded. Good fucking lord.

    • I have a feeling AA is going to target a high OBP high contact hitting 2B option. Aviles was going to be competing for a job at 2B, and most likely destined to be a great bench option.

      Hopefully, this trade opens the door for AA to get a quality hitter at 2B.

      Rogers is a nice piece to replace Frasor and likely, Brandon Lyon, who will likely command a multi-year deal in free agency.

      • I am not saying this because he played out of his mind in the playoffs, but AA should make a run at Scutaro on a 2yr deal. He is exactly what were looking for, although the price tag remains the big question

  30. AA found a savings of at least 1 mil (Aviles should be around 2 mil in arby) in his deal. Swapping and saving money for a preferred asset while saving up for bigger purchase?

    Not to mention to 3 to 5 mil saved by not necessarily needing Lyon or Fraser.

    Ok AA, you have my attention now.

    • If he has to penny pinch a few mill out of random pen guys in order to get a quality starter or LF/2B then we might be reallllllllly disappointed with our roster come April.

      • This. 1000x this.

      • or maybe it’s precisely BECAUSE he plans on spending serious money on those positions that he’s looking to save a million here and there elsewhere whenever he can.

        • Yes. What you said. At least I hope.

        • Exactly.

          Penny pinching at every position is necessary for every team.

          Nobody has an unlimited budget.

          Of course, the Jays’ payroll may one again be laughable, but it doesn’t mean penny pinching isn’t smart and necessary.

      • These are the types of moves GM’s on a budget like Friedman and AA have to make to maximize return on the dollar. I don’t give a shit if he flips these guys 3/4 more times if it helps to get 1 or 2 bigger ticket players.

      • Yeah I agree Lamp.

        If AA had saved like, 7 or 8 million in this deal to reinvest elsewhere that would be great.

        But hopefully this deal didn’t have much to do with saving money, because if he’s looking to save 1 million here and there, he’s probably not going to be spending much.

        • I disagree. With the inclusion of no longer needing a Frasor/Lyon type, famousamazingguy clearly demonstrates how the Jays saved 5-6 million by making a more expensive asset expendable. if that get rolled into other FA acquisitions or gets earmarked for salary taken on in trade? huge win

    • He Just saved 2 million because Gomes equals Rogers salary wise, plus the 3 million to 5 million for Frasor or Lyon. Lets value the figure at 4 million. AA has opened 6 million dollars of monies to be allocated against the incremental increase of team salary

  31. Oh fuck off parkes

  32. Who the hell plays 2nd next year?

  33. Looks like a solid trade. I also think it means that AA isn’t going to go with Escobar and Hech for the middle infield next year. Maybe he will try to land Jeff Keppinger?

  34. But is he that much better then Bailey? I know Bailey isn’t that healthy but you basically very publicly traded your manager for a random bullpen piece that Cleveland doesn’t even want and isn’t Perez on his way out for bad talking the town and the team repeatedly over the season?

    And if you think maybe they will try him in the rotation are you gonna be happy with Esmil Rogers as one of the two starters we pick up?

    • He’s cheaper then Bailey and much healthier. Rogers won’t start for the Jays.

    • You sir are an idiot.

      • I just don’t quite get essentially trading your manager to a division rival for a guy who was DFA’d by the Rockies

        • Who cares what he did on Colorado?

          That’s the PCL of major league baseball.

        • There’s a very long list of pitchers that stuggled in Colorado that went onto pitch well after they left. Look at Hammel for the O’s for recent example.

        • why would you use past history over contradictory more recent history? he sucaked in Colorado. he was really good in Cleveland (in a bigger sample).

          by that logic we should get rid of Bautista because he was craps for the Pirates.

        • @Lamp …because the Manager kinda sucks and is completely fungible, so addition by subtraction….plus a few million of salary room (by not having to sign Frasor or Lyon).

        • Perez sucks and is a malcontent who isn’t cost controlled

        • Getting anything more than a bag of balls for Farrell was a victory, particularly since he didn’t want to be here.

          Farrell’s gone; that chapter is closed. Quit bitching about it and move on.

    • You know how hard it would be to get all that puke out of the astro turf?

  35. “For fuck’s sakes oakville.
    This is the start of 4 months of movement.
    You gonna have to wait for your answers.
    AA ain’t consulting us while he’s making moves.
    He’ll let you know AFTER he makes them.”

    @Radar. Calm Down. Just having fun. AA can do whatever he wants till April 1, 2013.

    These are the trades AA likes. Didn’t AA try to corner the market a few years ago with SS’s. Johnny Mac, Gonzalez etc

    As for Ortiz, he has a more limited amount of time to act.

    I assume the “bigger names” will be traded or signed relatively quickly by January

  36. Moar pen arms. MOAR!!!!!!!!

  37. Over/Under on how many games he pitches before he goes out and needs Tommy John surgery

  38. @DC. Are you Stoeten’s parrot?

    “@oakville69

    why do you start every post with +1

    your posts are the worst.”

    Stoeten’s finally bringing up the same points that a few of us like BFullmer have been bringing to the attention of this blog for over a year. Rogers has been playing games with the tv contract revenue. Jays have had very low payrolls & haven’t been able to draft & develop players.

    The best hitting prospect gets treated poorly by Cito & now lame duck Farrell didn’t really care either. AA knew that Farrell wanted out for 1 year yet now can’t find a manager?

    • Oakville, understand your statement about Rogers lowballing the Tv Revenue.
      In 2014 with an incremental addition of 30 to 35 million from MLB TV contract (2 billion annually for 30 teams) with only 2.1 million in attendance. Rogers will have 100 million revenue stream plus their low ball TV contract.(fuckers) See what other major market teams are receiving from Comcast and Fox. Angels -150 million, Rangers-90 million.
      Additionally, there is ancillary MLB revenue such as royalties, food. Not even including what they sell there boxes for. Just think in the old days how much they made there.
      Rogers are sticking to Blue Jays Nation , when they could invest monies into the final product. Going forward the Jays for next year 2013 in farm system an additional 6.6 million for USA draft and 2.9 million for the international draft.

      • @Jensan .

        Very good points.

        The last numbers reported in the globe & mail on Rogers deal with the Jays was that Rogers paid the Jays around 200K per game or 32 milion.

        This is much lower than one would expect based on the ratings.

        The issue with the MLB tv money is every team will have more to spend, so even if the Jays increase spending to 100 million, it won’t mean as much because there will be many more teams bidding for free agents.

        I know Stoeten & Wilner like to highlight the Jays draft spending, but these amount are negligible in the grand scheme of things. 10 million vs 6 million isn’t a huge deal.

        • Oakville, you are correct, however, if management is pro-active they can anticipate the increase of cash flow, invest in players short term, before some of the other players (teams) short term pain for long term gain.

          With respect to Drafting for the farm club, the combined annual investment had been around 14 million to 15 million previously, now this will be limited to 9.5 million.

          This would allow for a Denard Span, or even a Josh Wiilingham to be included into the major league roster. The expense was previously always attributed against Total Revenue. As they say the Blue Jays ownership can suck and blow at the same time.

          Rumor had it the Jays organization made 25 Million last year. Revenue Streams will increase, something to the effect, if you build it , they will come.

          • @Denan.

            Good analysis. I think the cost of free agents will be much higher & dwarf the Jays draft spending.

            It made sense for AA to load up on draft picks while he had the chance.

            My skepticism or caution is whether or not these picks can be turned into productive MLB players.

            The snider fiasco is a worrisome sign, & AA was the GM in 2010-2012.

  39. I may be naive but Hech’s stellar D and below average bat is better ( or no worse off) than Aviles so-so D and inability to take a walk anyways, if that’s what the Jays end up doing. Aviles profiled a little too much like Kelly Johnson for my liking.

    • I could see Hech having a better year than Aviles offensively.

      • Hech bat has improved at every level and his finish to last season was much stronger than his start. Theres a lot of room for optimism regarding his offense and it sure as fuck wont be any worse than Aviles.

        • Just to clarify, when I say below-average bat In respect to Hech I’m talking about the base-level expectation from him offensively this early in his career.

        • I like that Chanse. I noticed he was getting some key hits towards the end of the season, not to mention he had Mottola as his personal coach with him. Tabler kept yapping about his swing too. I think he’s going to surprise some peeps.

  40. ignoring his numbers , i always liked Rogers when seeing him play against the jays

  41. I just re-read all the posts when the Jays got Aviles for Farrell. As you were.

  42. Personally, I really like the move. Another arm in the pen can’t hurt and it’s not like were actually giving up much in value for him. And maybe this will force Rogers to spend some cash, that’s all we can really ask for.

  43. Dont forget about Jenkins for the pen as insurance and Perez could be back mid season. Huge area of strength right now.

    • You are correct Sir.

      Also, a stock pile of bullpen arms is just what Jim Tracy needs for his 4 man rotation ;)

    • Hmmmm didnt Perez go down in July? That makes the one year mark next July and probably after the All Star break. So he’d be on limited innings for the rest of 2013. I’d be willing to bet they’ll probably re hab him til 2014, and use Loup Cecil and maybe Oliver in his place.

    • Dont forget stroman and dyson especially the latter. Than there is Stilson and Barnes .
      My belief stroman will start at new Hampshire but not as a reliever .
      Dunedin will be packed with quality starters.

  44. AA sure doesn’t waste time trading away assets he doesn’t need for decent return. Unless Aviles becomes the next Napoli (lol!) this trade is awesome. Also if I was Rogers I wouldn’t buy a house in Toronto just yet, AA likes to wheel and deal/

  45. Positives as cheap Rodgers will be forced to spend on pitching and bats plus surplus of bullpen depth if a garza/Johnson trade occurs

  46. And now a word from Jays apologist Shi Davidi: bit.ly/RAKmq7

    “The Jays save 1-1.5 million. How is this relevant? Like this will be used to acquire talent that’s not controllable or club friendly?

    • Davidi is hilarious. He always look scared on TV like someone is going to hit him.

      Shi could write another article on the Jays extra budget being pumped up from 11-16 to 12.5-17 million.

      Again, it’s not worth getting to excited either way till AA does something important.

      I did like Yan Gomes

      • You would like Yan Gomes oakville69

      • I liked Yan Gomes too. A utility infielder/outfielder who can also be a legitimate third catcher gives you some nice flexibility. And Gomes seemed like a good kid.

        Wouldn’t have been surprised to see him have a decent career as a reserve player. Seems like the Indians want him just to be a catcher, not sure how he stacks up that way.

  47. Instead of spending $2.5 mil on Aviles and $0.5 mil on Gomes if he were the 25th man on the roster, AA could sign Ronny Cedeno for $1.5 mil and Johnny Gomes for $1.5 mil, who would be PERFECT to pair up with Adam Lind.

    That would improve the bench while snagging a potentially late inning reliever for free.

    Not bad.

    • Jays could also re use Gomes’s jerseys to save money:)) Johnny Gomes could take the same number as Yan Gomes.

    • Johnny Gomes/Adam Lind platoon is a great idea.

      Like it or not we’re stuck with Lind for one more year. Too much money to eat, and he cleared wavers last year.

      Might as well extract as much value as you can in a STRICT platoon.

      An .800 to ..850 ops is not an unrealistic hope for a J Gomes/Lind platoon.And @ apx. 7 million, that’s not terrible value either.

      • I’d be totally fine with a Lind/Gomes platoon.

        Rotation spot #1, #2, LF & 2B are all more important than replacing Lind.

        As long as Lind is platooned he’s fine.

        • Just a gut feeling, absolutely no science behind this, but I think Lind might have a bounce back year with Mottola up with the big club. If this sounds like the offseason of the last two years, sorry. I’m an optimist.

  48. 1. Received trade alert in email
    2. Became nervously excited
    3. Clicked
    4. Shrugged shoulders and moved on with day.

  49. So much for Aviles… I doubt he had any time to unpack.

  50. Rogers looks to me like a straight up replacment swing man for Carlos Villanueva.

    • I know im prolly the minority here but im gonna miss Villaneuva.
      Guy did whatever the team needed of him and did a solid job.

      • Not at all alone, I think he’s a significant loss.

      • And he was paid handsomely for his work, we will see what other teams value his talent.

      • Yeah me too. I dont know who to blame for the falling out though. How he got so bent out of shape over being paid starter’s money that he and AA went public is weird. The guy should’ve known to STFU and handle that stuff internally. He maybe could’ve been starter material but even Morrow had to build himself up over a few years.

      • I like Carlos V & am baffled why AA criticized him. He would have been a useful replacement for 2013.

  51. heh, interesting. With all guaranteed contracts for next season equalling around 65M, arbitration eligibles (rasmus, happ, etc) will probably add about 8-9 M, bringing us to
    73-74 M, then all our controllable players (lawrie, arencibia, perez, lincoln, delabar, rogers etc.) will probably add another 4-5 M, bringing us to a payroll of around 78-79M before making any new additions. Assuming AA is considering a payroll in the neighbourhood of 95M which I think is not completely unrealistic to have next season, that leaves us with 16M or so to acquire two starters and fill 2B. I think Jackson at a salary of 10M a year or so could fit but then we’d have to fill 2B and acquire some kind’ve left fielder that fits into our budget. Maybe we could target Gerardo Parra? Will make around 2.5MM next season, is a quality left fielder and that leaves us with 3-4MM to fill second base. It’d be nice to acquire two starters this summer but with this much payroll space that probably isn’t a realistic possibility if we want to have above replacement level players at left field and 2B.

  52. The Jays free up about 10M in salary (i.e. KJ/Lyon/Frasor). That is not insignificance at all.

    If freeing up payroll is the real reason behind this move, then Rogers is really a bunch of cheap fucks.

    Maybe this is insurance in dealing with one of Lyon/Frasor??

    We need a bat in LF and an arm in the rotation. Until that happens, who cares who is the manager/coaching staff

  53. The sky is falling…(Repeat X 2000 while running around with arms in the air)

    As far as the trade goes sure, I would buy it too. Aviles…who would want any Boston leftovers anyways. Good flip I say.

  54. So I think what we can take out of this is that Rogers is cheap (pun intended).

  55. Two bench bats for a reliever?

    I think I prefer the bench bats slightly, but ultimately it’s all meh anyways.

  56. Rogers broke through as a reliever in Manny Acta’s bullpen.

    Coincidence? I think not.

  57. This is further proof that the Jays organization is racist against Brazilians.

  58. Here’s the updated roster and costs as I see them.

    Position Players – Starters (7 out of 9): JPA, EE, Lawrie, Escobar, Rasmus, Jose, Lind
    Position Players – Bench (2 out of 4): Mathis, Davis,
    Total Cost for 2013 for 9 position players: $40.65 million
    Holes to Fill: 2nd Base, Left Field, 3rd Bench Player 4th Bench Player

    Starting Pitchers (3 of 5): Romero, Morrow, Alvarez
    Relief Pitchers (7 of 7): Janssen, Santos, Delabar, Lincoln, Loup, Oliver, Rogers

    Total Cost for 2013 for 10 pitchers: $27.9 million
    Holes to Fill: 2 starters

    Total Cost for 2013 for 19 players: $68.55 million
    Additional Costs*: $4.25 million
    Grand Total for 19 players: $72.80 million

    *McGowan, Hechavarria

    Assumptions:
    I didn’t include Happ or Jenkins in the rotation or relief at this point as a lot will depend on what happens with someone like Oliver and free agent acquisitions or the failure to acquire them. I suppose you could remove Alvarez as well and deduct the $0.5 million if you want to argue that his spot is up in the air just as much as Happ’s. I allotted $0.5 million for the other pre-arb players like JPA, Lawrie, Loup, Delabar, and Lincoln. I gave the arb players like Rasmus 10% raises over last year’s salary, though that might be a little light compared to the final number. The pen looks fairly set with the acquisition of Rogers. If Oliver retires then slot Happ in for roughly $2.6 million in his place. Happ got the same 10% treatment as Rasmus.

    So basically the Jays are at roughly $72.8 million with 6 roster spots to fill as things stand now. You could probably cut that down to 5 players as it looks more likely than ever that Hechavarria is going to make the team as at least the Utility guy if not the 2nd baseman. Given that it seems AA is trying to make every dollar count, Hechavarria’s $2.75 million really makes that look like a done deal. Of course his play after being called up wasn’t too shabby either.

    I really have to wonder about AA’s last couple of moves and what it actually signals for the rest of the winter, if it actually does mean something. On one hand you could argue that it does not bode well and he’s pinching pennies because he has no choice as Rogers are just cheap fucks. On the other hand, the cheap Scotsman in me applauds his moves in saving 500k with the Davis move and likely a couple million more with the trade for Rogers. Retreads like Frasor, or veterans like Lyons, would have likely cost $4-5 million or more for a year judging on what they made in the past and for what Brandon League just signed for.

    • Imagine if AA could shed Lind and replace him with d’Arnaud. Add another cool 4 mil or so of payroll flexibility.

      • That’s certainly a possibility. Part of me would love to see d’Arnaud up as the right handed DH/pinch hitter. I know the chances of that are not high though AA did mention that he could possibly DH in the past. As I noted i the roster there’s room for a 2nd bench player if they stick to 7 guys in the pen, which is what they should do. So it could be someone like him or Sierra. Both are right handed bats and could fill in nicely as the DH when Lind sits vs Lefties.

        • Pretty sure AA has already said that when d’Arnaud comes up it will be because he’s ready to get 500 AB’s. So I doubt he’d b on the roster as a part-time player.

        • I hope the new manager doesn’t go with the 8 man bullpen. Too many times in 2012 , the Jays were very short with the bench.

          • Made even more short by carrying the corpse of Vizquel.

          • 8 man pens are required by shit/decimated rotations.

            As a side note, initial response to the hot stove season
            that concentrates on middle relief might give one an indication of what will happen with the rotation. IE: expect a #3 at best…just speculating, but that’s what’s fun right?

    • Should say that while technically there was no actual savings with Davis, he was at least able to knock down the 2013 portion by 500k which is what counts now.

      • That’s an odd accounting move. So are we to believe that AA is not allowed to spend an extra 500K in 2013, but Rogers doesn’t care if he spends 500K in 2012??

        That’s odd. There must be something technical about the move to decline the option & resign him in 2013.

        • Not really when you think about it. You’re an accountant right? You should know then that sometimes there’s cash left over from the current fiscal year and that companies or certain departments will try and use it up before the next fiscal year.

          It’s still a gimmick, but at least his 2013 budget has a little more room now.

          • @manimal.
            Yes, I am an accountant. I know how the budget gimmicks work.

            Some companies approve X$ spending in 2012 , & if you don’t spend it , you lose it.

            The 2013 budget may be very diffrent than 2012,.

            If Rogers gave AA gave AA a specific dollar budget for 2013, but AA was under budget for 2012, then this move makes sense.

            He gets an extra 500K for 2013 , which is a 25th man on the roster.

            OK, fine. It’s a nickel & dime move.

            It will be fascinating to see if AA can lure a player here that makes more than 10 million per year.

        • I get the feeling that AA gets a number from Rogers. Ie 90 million. So, if AA was under budget for 2012, perhaps he had the flexibility to sneak in another 500k in his 2012 budget.

          It may seem like semantics but this is Rogers we are talking about, a group of suits who operate the team on a strict ledger sheet.

    • Interesting.

      If the Jays could run a payroll of say 103 million (not so crazy), and have 30 million to spend this offseason, I think they could have a nice shot at picking up some significant pieces.

      • Yeah there certainly is some room there and the nice thing is that the costs for core that is listed above remain fairly stable for the next couple of years out. The main costs like Jose, EE, Escobar, Morrow and Romero and now the pen are all locked in at the rates they are at now.

        The Jays could conceivably make that $30 million look like $50 million ahead of the additional TV revenue coming in 2014 by back loading the contracts.

        • Any guesses on how they could spend that 30 million (that I’m pulling out of my ass)?

          Sanchez or Edwin Jackson would probably cost 13 or 14 mil. Maybe you trade for a back end rotation guy with low salary.

          Then you acquire one decent OF bat? Pence? Choo?

          Might have to cheap out on 2B and DH a bit (Hech and a platoon with Lind)?

          • Rather have cliff lee than Sanchez and Jackson . Philly has to get rid of Roy or cliff due to salary issues and age , take cliff lee, get Philly to subsidize the deal . Lee is better than lincecum and any of the Sp free agents

          • So many possibilities but really it’s going to come down to who wants to play in Toronto. I read Haren’s response to his potential trade last night and even the thought of him going to Chicago for just a year seemed like something he and his wife had to “think about”.

            With regards to the money, if they were to back load the contracts to really start paying in 2014 or 2015 when there’s a lot more revenue coming in then there is a ton they can do with that $30 million beyond what you’d normally be able to do.

            For instance when Jose Reyes signed with the Marlins his deal was largely back loaded. They are set to only paid him $10 million for his first two years before going to $16 million and finally $22 million per year. The AAV was $17.6 million but the Marlins shaved off $7 million per year before allowing the new TV deal to kick in and make the rest of the contract affordable. Even the Angels did the same thing with Pujols paying him $12 and $16 million before jumping to $23 million.

            So if the Jays were to do such a thing you could conceivably add 2 bigger, expensive contracts, say like Sanchez and Haren at $10 million each this year leaving you another $10 million to go after a Left fielder and two bench players.

    • I fully agree.

      Just because you get $16 million to spend this winter does not mean you no longer have to start saving money.

      If you find a way to dump $3 million from your payroll giving up only pieces you intended to make redundant anyways, why not? You’ll now have $19 million to spend.

    • @night manimal.

      Good analysis.

      Perhaps AA is tired of spending 4-5 million on veteran bullpen arms that don’t contributet
      that much.

      As for a bullpen filled with relievers that don’t miss bats, I can’t complain.

  59. Don’t know if this was mentioned but his BABIP before the trade last season was .425, which helps explains his numbers. If nearly half the balls put into play against me went for hits I think I would walk some guys too lol

  60. 200 comments on a Saturday afternoon.
    You’re all a bunch of sick baseball junkies.

    Except for me ,of course.
    I’m doing research.
    Very academic shit. Upper crust crap.

    Okay,I lied.
    I’m a sick fuck too.

  61. K here’s a fantasy world trade proposal that could work and would be cheap and probably effective…sign kj 1 year 2nd year club option…trade Jp to marlins for Emilio bonafacio…essentially platooning kj and rajai with Emilio switching between left and 2nd…trade for left handed bat, sign a starter…problem solved…thoughts?

  62. Some gold out of the TSN comments:

    “OMG. Just what we needed. Another pitcher that gives up nealy 5 runs a game, just so the Jays can get 6. Another baffling move!”

    “just more proof that AA and the much vaunted scouting staff really don’t have a clue. if they were so hot on this guy, they could have BOUGHT him from the Rockies, which is what Cleveland did last season. But now, based on his only halfway decent spell in the majors, they give up 2 somewhat useful bats for him. The guy has a career WHIP of 1.662. I’d suggest they pre-book him in for his Tommy John surgery, as I’m sure he’ll be needing one by May. Watch Gomes turn out to be a decent major leaguer, and watch this guy not even give the Jays 50 innings.”

    “Will someone please explain to me how A/A keeps his job by making these stupid trades? Just what the Jays need, another pitcher who allows just about 6 runs per game. Fits perfectly with Romero and his 7 runs per game average. Terrible trade!!!”

    Here’s a good one: “The Jays have dealt a prospect and a good infielder for a nobody!? Way to go AA! Now we still need to find an upgrade at 2B as well. Way to create more holes AA!”

    And my favorite: “why is Romero not in this deal?! Trade Romero!”

    Link to the insanity: http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=408772#YourCallTop

    • Wow almost as entertaining as the callers to Wilner’s show lol

    • Once you realize how many people have opinions like those, it’s hard not to see how Wilner got to be this way. I rarely blame him for coming across like a dick.

      • So true. I probably would be fired about half way through the first show if I was doing his job.

        • Yeah.

          I mean … Blair knows baseball, but I always get ticked with him when he’ll take a call from a guy spewing total reactionary, TSN commenter style bullshit, and just lets the comment sit and moves on.

          Wilner takes a lot of heat, but I respect that he is constantly trying to stop incorrect narratives from taking over.

      • Yeah, but I still think they deserve each other.

      • I love Mike WIlner, He’s the Chris Mathews of Blue Jays Baseball.

      • ever heard shit attracts flies?

    • LOL, TSN. Where all the ‘Knowledgeable’ creeps of bandwagonry get their 2 cents in. Per ca-pita, it has got to be the dumbest grouping of people on the internet.

  63. So yesterday while changing a cd I accidently heard Steve Simmons brother, Bob McCowen going off about how he “doesnt’ know who the Jays” are and how they should spend money and a bunch of other un-thought out bullshit to rile up the lowerst common denomenators who pay his salery. It got me thinking, isn’t this the same team and GM who were stockpiling the best minor league system outside of K.C? So I thought about it and my conclusion is that if you aren’t excited about this team and its potential then you don’t deserve to have a major league team to cheer for. I’ll explain why in the next post.

    • Since the topic is relievers, lets start there:

      Janssen, Santos, Delabar, Lincoln, Rogers, Loup & Oliver/Cecil. with maybe Alverez, Happ, Plus Perez when he’ healthy, maybe even Drabek or Hutchinson. Villenuava maybe too. Lots of depth hear, lots of options, guys who can spot start etc.

      The roation is not nearly as bad as consensus indicates: Romero (he’ll rebound) Morrow, Plus whoever he gets in trade/ FA and past indications of his trading abilities is he’ll do fine with whateve he does. Drabek-Alverez- Hutchison- Happ-Cecil all good options for depth. Theres the “Lansing Three” and several other decent prospects. One big name addition and they can cut and paste there way to at worst a decent roation. Ill

      In the field they have 2 good catchers, one who is among baseballs top prospects. 3rd Base gives us a potential superstar, Escobar is still above replacement and Henchevaria D would be acceptable since the rest of the lineup is solid hitters. You need a second basemen, buts the weakest position in baseball so really, who cares. EE is set at first and Id sign LaRoche to give 60hr 200 rbi 1b/dh combo. Bautista and Rasmus make up potentially one of the top 3 RF/C combos in MLB and so you need a left fielder. You could sign somone, and if you do, a Gose/Davis coming off the bench will be a unique and amazing weapon. Lind is a left handed power bat off the bench. McCoy or Hench are good bench players. And if they had to go with Davis starting in left, its not the end of the world. Add another year of development for the likes of Rasmus, Lawrie etc and I think you have a young sustainable team on the verge of being a perennial contender for the next five + years. The pessimism is unwarrented.

      • I think one of the concerns is while we wait for certain starters to rebound/repair/ make it to the bigs, the core of the offence will peak/decline or get fed up and ask to be moved.

      • What’s with people thinking there is even a remote possibility of Hech being a bench player this year?

        If he’s not getting regular big league at bats he’ll be in AAA.

        • That is like saying the sun will come up tomorrow, unless you are a sieving puss filled idiot, you know that.

  64. turns out Mike Avilies dream job was playing in Cleveland. .

  65. Most important question yet to be answered:

    Did AA and the Jays ever pay for that charter plane to get Farrett out of Toronto?

  66. I see this move as both saving $$$ for now ( and hopefully adding to the pot) and a prelude to a deal with one of our relievers/.\ I suspect that fukstik Frasor is history ( saving 4m), Lyon won’t be asked back at 5.5m and hesaves about 1.5m on the diff between Aviles and this Rogers goober for a total of approx 11m! This alone could solve 2b and LF and allow for muchi bucks on the pitching side for Starters. Sanchez and Ejax anyone?? ( I hope I hope)
    As for relievers I frankly w/n be surprised to see Janssen traded now that his value is high and he could help secure a starer ( perhapss a trade to Miami who dumped Bell) like JJ

    • seems early to sell on Jansen without a clear option to take his place. Unless they know Santos is ready but I highly doubt that. I think Casey is a near-lock for the back end of the pen, but who knows

      • What he said. Let’s see what happens with Santos when he gets back before we start moving people to make room for him.

        • I read Santos’ operation came off without a hitch and he’ll be ready for ST. But of course we’ll see about that. Be nice to see him come all the way back to his old form.
          Have to say Casey is ripe for a trade. All he’s done is everything they’ve ever asked of him.

  67. Looking at the Astros minor league top 20, its really sad how much we gave away for happ. I lost a lot of faith in AA then. Aviles was suppose to be the insurance for 2b, and we just got another relief pitcher? So what you’re telling me is for Happ and our bullpen, we have given up snider, thames, gomes, nestor molina, Asher Wojciechowski, Joe Musgrove, David Rollins, Carlos Perez, and COMER OUR FIRST ROUND SANDWICH PICK?!!!! IM DONE WITH THE AA BANDWAGON. THIS IS BS.

  68. kj 6.4
    coco 4.5
    frasor 3.8
    cv 2.3
    bf 1.5
    teahan 5.5
    lyon 2.5

    that’s 26.5 mil off the books. if you replace them with min wage then you get about 3.5mil

    that’s 23 mil saved

  69. Lyon made 5.5 last year so I can’t see him being invited back to pitch like 41 innings/. Not beyond realm that Oliver may retire saving another 3m for a total of about 29m or so.
    Christ, guys spend chunks of change on starters-get goin’

  70. I’ve always been a Torii Hunter fan, he’s long in the tooth but still has 15-20 homeruns in his bat and hit .313 this year (don’t clobber me Saberboys)
    His biggest asset at this stage would be his character/leadership, everywhere he’s went he’s been loved by teammates and managers. He’s worked with MLB and inner city kids for years.

    Would be a good step in cleaning up the bullshit in the locker room. (if it does exist as Visquel insists)

    Resume:
    9 Gold Gloves
    5.5 WAR in 2012
    44.4 WAR for career
    Branch Rickey Award Winner – Award for exceptional community service
    Has a .305/.370/.489 slash in the post season.

    He’s tending down and 36 so he can probably be signed for 2 years on the cheap.
    Maybe 6 to 8 million per. Thoughts?

    • *trending down

      • I think he has said many times he wants to retire as an Angel. Also older players would be less interested in playing on artificial turf. But even if he was willing to come here, I think he would be about 3rd or 4th on the Jays wishlist for a big bat.

        • So it is in the realm of possibility, but I’m not sure if it’s the best scenario for either side. We could probably match his production at a lower cost, and spend that 6,8,10 Million on pitching.

          • Makes sense about the turf, and if he demands that much $ I agree with you. As for retiring an Angel, unless he retires today or accepts a role as a 4th outfielder it’s not going to happen. They rejected his option and I read that they won’t be offering him a contract. Bourjus in center in 13, trout moves to left and trumbo in right with vernon and his albatross on the bench.

          • Actually Jimmy saying “I think he has said many times” is incorrect

          • Well he did make that clear several times he wants to be an Angel for the rest of his career, unless I’m wrong? I know I’ve read about it more than once.

            didn’t realize it looks like he is out of a job with the angels though, in that case it becomes more likely

    • he’s going to want at least 10 mil. I dont’ want an old guy more than 1 year deal.

      • Want does not always = gets.
        Probably a pipe dream, I’d just love to see him in T.O.
        Fucking Yankees will probably scoop him anyway

    • Probably cost you 10 , but, 800+OBPS or go after josh willingham who costs 7 million a year for the next two years

    • If the Jays were on the cusp, I could see them making a move to get a veteran leadership type player.

      But in the current context, AA has too many holes. I think he spends his discretionary budget on getting the best pieces available to build a competitive team first and foremost.

      The million dollar question (or it could be 25 million according to some figures we have seen so far), can AA pull it off this off-season?

      • Fuck, they were on the “cusp” 6 months ago, and it wasn’t just the pathetic predetermination of the fans…..see the advertising campaign mix it with a little Paul Beeston and what the FUCK do you want. A fan base that wants this shit to happen. This stupid rhetoric about how the fans created expectations is such bullshit. Bring it on Radar, Stoeten or anyone else. I have sat back and listened to this fucking shitty little story about how the fans/Rogers haters have no fucking idea what they are talking about, yet I see Stoeten, even Radar changing tune depending on the situation on hand. Get down to the reality of it sons of baseball…without the casual fan they become the “Les Jays” Fuck!
        Ok I am good now, carry on………

        • @Tom.

          It was always a risk for the Jays to overhype 2012 with new uniforms & a marketing campaign to focus on exciting new players which focused on players telling fans that they can compete etc..

          The media latched on & were excited after another disastrous Leafs season.

          They made celebrities of Stoeten&Parkes in the National Post being part of a new generation of hipster fans.

          The team got off to an amazing spring training season which usually means nothing, but felt different.

          I think there will be more caution this year.

        • Jeez Tom.
          Nice rant.Love the passion big guy.
          But bring it on RADAR?
          Cool, love to debate.
          The rhetoric of the jays being on the cusp was definitely media and fan created. Fueled by a great ST record, the hopes of the average fan were boosted beyond reality.
          Aside from Beeston stating that the Jays would be in the playoffs twice ( or was it 3?) times in the next 5 years, AA has never made any sort of prediction.
          Even so,Beeston is planning the strategy and AA is executing it.IMO.
          Forget a FA’s for now.
          To amass the talent neccessary to build a playoff team you need tangible assets.Those assets are your current roster AND your farm prospects, made available for trade or to develop.
          AA has delivered the farm portion ( importantly before the window of opportunity closed).
          And before he goes and gets what he needs , he has to know what he’s got.He’s got a much better idea now.I could go down the list but think back to the beginning of 2012 and the doubts concerning Bautista,EE,JPA,Lawrie,Rasmus,Thames,Snider,Alvarez,Drabek,Lind,Santos.
          I don’t think I’ve changed my tune depending on the situation but I’ll let others be the judge.
          This off season should be interesting.
          Again, I am loathe to make predictions but I do think moves will be made so that the Jays are in the playoff hunt in Sept of 2013.
          IMHO.

        • +lots and lots to Tom W

  71. what I really like about rogers is that he threw 78 ip in relief. that’s more than any other jays reliever. that’s basically coming in every other game. that’s 1/2 a starter for only 500k

  72. Stoets, what the hell are you doing here on a Saturday?

  73. are you freaken serious? so you argument is yeah we gave up from an area of strength? Well done genius!!!! but a good gm should have been able to use all those quality arms and catchers to get more than A BULLPEN?!!!! you guys are just drinking way too much coolade…its messed up your mind

    • Don’t even know how to spell Kool-aid? Big pitcher breaking through walls going “Oh Yeah!” Ring a bell? No credibility.

    • Your compliments are appreciated . A bullpen is significant, take a look at Baltimore last year. The Yankees for years had a quality bullpen.

      Drinking the KOOL -Aid is the correct Terminology, a little research in many areas would seem to help you.

      Yes , you do trade from strength, that is what is considered intelligent. The farm club has much talent, and will have more next season as well.

      Being financially responsible is the Job of the GM and President, if there is a budget that the owners provide. Concur that Rogers is not being appropriate in their presentation of their limited budget. However, the Blue Jays do not have any disproportionate salaries like a Morneau, Santana, or what the Red Sox dumped onto the Dodgers last Fall.

      Still take that chill pill, and review what we received for 5 single A players, 1 AAAA player, a Double AA pitcher with potential and 2 MLB players exchanged for 5 inexpensive MLB experienced players.

      • all im saying is he should have been able to get a lot more. Look at the price Haren was going for…Marmol? i mean there has to be teams willing to trade a starter for the some mix of what we gave up.

        • Marmol is a “proven closer” (with a whip that looks like league average… For SP!)… So you could imagine how that trade would be easier to take for your average fan than trading haren for someone you and I might consider to be better…

        • Haren was subsequently bought out.

          So he had zero value at $12 mil for one year according to LAA.

  74. So we basically traded John Farrell, David Carpenter and Yan Gomes for Esmil Rogers….hmmm,

    Rogers fits AA’s current philosophy of RP’s with power arms and years of control, with good strikeout rates.

    • Yup!

    • Three next to useless pieces that won’t get to play (or manage) for the team next year is almost addition by subtraction! Well at least in Farrell’s case, and at least Aviles won
      t be the starting second baseman.

      Plus they got a decent reliever with good upside. Nice work AA, I think his two moves have been a good start to the off season so far.

  75. I think they acquired the entire cost-effective bullpen and gave only players they had little or no intention of playing, ever. I love the Lunch box as much as anyone, but that shit was over.

  76. My immediate reaction to this was: thank Fuck aviles isn’t the starting 2b…I’m surprised anyone thought anything else. Getting pumped for 2013, you guys!

    Maybe they’re gonna grab a bunch more of these guys and get Jim Tracy to have a rotation of relievers… Jk that’s so stoopit

  77. That I never have to watch Yan Gomes play again in a Blue Jays uniform, makes this trade a big win for me.

    • YOu are a Yan Gomes hater??

      He was a versatile utility player. Catcher 1B,#B with some pop.

      • I’m with d.

        I hated watching him at the plate. Don’t know where the fan love came from.

      • Yan Gomes is terrible, terrible, terrible.

        He has next to zero plate discipline – flailing wildly and at everything….& eeeevvvverrry so often he runs into a pitch where the pitcher missed his spot. Pretty much the definition of ‘AAAA guy’.

        It was laughable that Zaun was saying he should be on the team next year.

  78. any thoughts on who is going to be giving out these huge contracts to grenke, hamilton, swisher etc? it seems all the big teams have already spent

    yankees and phillies are out.
    angels and tigers and dodgers already spent
    maybe that leaves rangers and red sox and miami.

    then there are some mid payroll teams like washington, mets, cubs that might be players.

    and given that low payroll teams like atlanta and baltimore won, I don’t see this stampede to break the bank to sign somebody.

    • Lesson I’ve learned: there will always be a #mysteryteam…

      It’s kind of irrelevant who is bidding because you never know who might hate it here for whatever reasons… Or who, what like manram, and might for some reason supposedly love it

      • This stupid predictive keyboard adds words after punctuation if you hit space…

      • the blue jays are probably a mystery team….. if they ever sign anybody

        I bet other baseball fans rarely consider us a contender for a free agent signing, except maybe the Darvish fiasco

    • METS cannot be involved, they have 75 million dollars for 6 players, and the owners just settled with Madoff trustee for a $162 million that must be paid out in three years. There is a codicil that whatever is collected from the Ponzi Scam will reduce what they owe, to date that is approx. 35%.

      They maybe trade partners with the Blue Jays, , they need a catcher and a reliever.

      • I’d say I feel bad for Mets fans… But last time I sympathize with a fan base they ended up getting Hanley and half the red sox in trades for salary relief… So Fuck that

      • JPA for Dan Murphy. I would do it.

  79. We got rid of two guys on the roster who can’t hit….

    WIN

  80. I like this deal to a point, but I would like it a lot more if there was someone to play 2B.

    BUT… this pretty much opens the door for someone like Stephen Drew, Alex Gonzalez, Marco Scutaro or my personal favourite choice Jeff Keppinger to step into a reasonably cheap short term deal to play SS or 2B depending on the selection and also depending on whether AA deals Escobar or not for another infielder.

    One thing is forsure, AA has shown part of his hand here, we all now KNOW with certainty that there is a move coming for a SS or 2B of some sort.

    Other predictions for me are going to be two starting pitchers, one of which will likely be Shaun Marcum and the other I can only guess since there’s so many names out there but it going to be a big name and big money. After that, I could see Adam Laroche as an option and also potentially someone like Ryan Ludwick, Melky Cabrera, Cody Ross or Delmon Young for LF being that we all know the big fish like Swisher/Hamilton/Victorino arent feasible due to the bulk of the money being put into pitching. Those LF options could be effective and fairly cheap options.

  81. good move all around! I think fans are upset over the pure fact that the move itself was minuscule in the big picture. lets get some starters babyyyyy! hunnnn rudy, for the boys, jays few!!!

  82. Lefties are a strange and curious breed. I’d love to see Sean Nolin continue his meteoric rise, break camp and win rookie of the year. fuuuck, I’m drunk.
    I do think he’s the under the radar prospect that turns out being one of the best of the bunch.

    Dibbs on Nolin.
    Fair warning Radar, Potatoes, Fowl…….

  83. Here’s the problem with all of this free agent talk including my own….

    Without a manager and coaching staff in place, who the fuck is going to sign in Toronto. The Jays already have the Canadian factor, the turf and other things working against them when it comes to signing free agents so yah,,, why not add the lack of a coaching staff to the mix.

    AA said hes not in a rush to name a manager,,, cool story bro, but yah,, you kinda should be in a hurry.

    • I think we over-value how much a manager factors in to a free agent signing, mostly because the Jays managers have been so in the public eye via the media etc. But, really, I don’t think it makes much of a difference to a player. An extra million dollars speaks more.

      • I disagree when there are managers like Valentine & Ozzie looking for work. That has to enter into a player’s thought process that they could be agreeing to work every day with someone like those two.

  84. Absoutely! I still say they will have one by Nov 6 as that is when the GM meetings start I believe. FA’a will want to know who is running the show here and so on…not to mention players on there own fucking team. Sort of like waiting to hear who the new dep’t boss is gonna be and whether they’ll keep you around or not so yeah.. let’s get on with it and pick one for fsakes..don’t really see how it c/b worse than Farrell

  85. Ken Davidoff agrees with Tim Dierkes that Edwin Jackson ends up a Blue Jay:

    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/agents_of_change_n0M7Yp4OSJEAFD1y6omWEM/1

    4 years and $48 million sounds in the ballpark and I’d love for the Blue Jays to be in on him at this price.

    Add in someone like Haren or Dempster on a 1 or 2 year deal and I’d say the Jays would have at least a middle of the pack AL rotation coupled with an above average bullpen.

    • +1 …..

    • Jackson at 4/48 would be fantastic.

      Yup, add in another decent arm, and the rotation could be anywhere from decent to very good if Morrow stays healthy and Romero bounces back (even somewhat).

    • Was it KLaw or Rosenthal who guessed that Sanchez would be coming to the Jays? Btw he didnt get a qualifying offer from the Tigers which means there’s no compensation for him. (I think per the new CBA) It also means he should be almost reasonable. I like the kid. He gives you lots of innings.

    • That’s what we are shooting for…fair to midland after fucking all.

  86. Wait a minute… You mean to say that I was so useless and completely without value that AA didn’t even want the guy I was traded for? But, but, but, but, but….I’m the manager of the Boston Red Sox dammit. Don’t you know what that means? They’ve won 2 world series since 1919! What, that’s the same amount the Jays have won? Look at my jaw line…

    • You were pretty, John.You sell anything to the media but you couldn’t do what the Jays needed most. Which was to think and adjust your strategy.

      Runner on first,duh.Gotta bunt, gotta bunt,duh, bunting is good , duh

      You couldn’t lead a team out of a wet paper bag.
      Steal home with the biggest home run hitter in the majors at the plate?

      Duh, shouldn’t do that,Duh should make a note to talk to somebody about that,duh.

      Run through a stop sign for the tenth time?

      duh, Green light duh, red light, where’s the yellow light ,duh.somebody writing this down?duh.

      RLRLRLRLR
      It looks so pretty,duh.just like me duh.it’s like symetrical, duh.
      Duh,anybody got a mirror?duh,

  87. Nice trade, keep them comming

  88. Fuck off Farrell

  89. So…trade John Farrell and mid-90s throwing below average reliever for Mike Aviles. Trade Aviles and Gomes for mid-90s throwing below average reliever…

    I don’t know. This year, AA’s moves seem to be going in circles. The only clear gains are cost and control. it worries me if this is the sole motivation behind all the club’s moves.

  90. Looks like the manager search has gone to radio silence because I’m not seeing anything out there now. If AA has already made a decision, when would he announce? It would be tomorrow before the winter meetings start, right? Unless he starts to leak it this afternoon.

  91. I don’t understand why people are so concerned with AA and Rogers pinching every penny they can. Isn’t that just effective/smart spending? Save what you can now, so there is more to spend later. Would people rather we spend irresponsibly like the fucking Dodgers are? Also, the Jays have an army of scouts, my guess is that this Rogers guy will turn out to be at least decent if not better.

    • People get upset because statistically, the higher payroll teams tend to make the playoffs more often.
      Simplistically,if you don’t spend, you have no chance.
      Obviously,there are exceptions and some markets can’t afford it, but Rogers is the richest owner in baseball so people say there’s no excuse not to spend.
      As an example,by getting Bautista and EE at a reasonable rate,people think the Jays should spend the savings in another area,to improve the team.
      Of course that’s short sighted,you are right about effective spending.
      You can spend 170 million poorly and lose.
      But you can also spend 100 million wisely and win.
      And that’s where the debate begins.

    • @jmitchell

      I believe that Rogers has made so many conflicting statements about payroll parameters, fans having to show up before they spend etc. that any moves the Jays make are analyzed form an effect on payroll perspective

      No one is opposed to spending prudently.

      Sadly, the question many jays fans have to ask is was this move by AA made to help the team’s bottom line or the playing field?

      The acquisition of a new reliever may help the team on the field & may provide the Jays with better quality bullpen , but will the Jays be weaker at 2B in 2013 with Hech or Escobar or someone else?

      • Well said Oakville.
        Only Beeston and AA know the end game.

        • @ Radar,

          Thanks,

          What’s funny is that when I was younger & followed the Expos, I didn’t care about player contracts, free agency, prospects etc..

          I just went to games & enjoyed watching the team play.

          The bottom line is do I spend $2,000 plus a year on tickets, food, souvenirs, countless hours following every move by the Jays or do I just chill out & watch the games on a big screen TV?

          I never know if I am being taken advantage of with Rogers.

          It’s like when you sign those extended warranty contracts. Are they really worth it? Will the company honor any repair bills.

          I have been following this team for 4.5 years & I am not sure if the on field team of the Jays is better now than mid 2008.

          • The difference between now and back then is access to knowledge.Most of what you knew about the Expo’s came from newspapers and TV.Geeks like me had to go to a bookstore ( usually several) to find a copy of Bill James Baseball Abstract.
            Now you can get instant access to the bottom rookie ball player.Prospect lists, rating every player makes every fan an expert.
            Fangraphs,Baseball reference,WAR, xFip.Bahip makes people like Parkes and Drew think they are “experts” of baseball. They are, but only a certain part of it.
            Back then you’d be lucky to get stats and info on AAA players,
            The team may not be better than 2008 but they had no hope of improving.
            The 2013 team does.

          • “I have been following this team for 4.5 years & I am not sure if the on field team of the Jays is better now than mid 2008.”

            The 2008 Jays were a very good team! Really each of the 2006 – 2008 teams were probably good enough to be playoff teams in any other division (or at least damn close).

            But it doesn’t really make sense to compare the current Jays to that squad. The Jays completely rebuilt and overhauled the team after 2009. You’re comparing year 3 of the AA rebuild, to basically the culmination/peak of the JP era.

  92. As a Blue Jay fan living in Ohio, I’m stuck listening or watching the Tribe more than I care to admit. I’m very familiar with Rogers and to tell the truth, he had a monster year for the Tribe in 2012. The Indians essentially had three relievers they could rely on this past year- Rogers, Vinnie Pestano and Chris Perez, after that it was a catastrophe.Terry Francona has already said he is with the Tribe for the long haul. This hints to me the Indians will have to do a complete re-build. By trading Aviles to the Indians, this clears the way for the Blue Jays to try to deal for Jason Kipnis, the Indians current 2nd baseman and I guy I’m pretty high on. By the time the Indians are ready to compete again, Kipnis will be nearing free agency, so the Tribe is better served to trade Kipnis now. One reason (if not the main reason) the Indians are such a mess at the present time is because they failed to get full value for Cliff Lee or C.C. Sabathia when they traded them. At one point the Tribe was 18-50 aftetr the All Star break. They have nowhere to go but up. With little or no help on the way from the minor leagues, moving Kipnis would be a start in the right direction for the Indians..

    • @Jim in Ohio.

      Who does the Tribe want from the Jays for Kipnis?

    • I’ve thought about Kipnis before as well. Like Lawrie, he seemed to take a step back at the plate in his first full year, but a young controllable guy with some pop would be a nice addition. I just have a feeling Cleveland would really want a lot for him.

    • I doubt Kipnis goes anywhere, and Aviles is a bench player.

      If the Indians were to consider moving him, however, it would probably be something like Syndergaard, Marisnick + a position player off the Jays’ 25-man roster.

      • You must understand that the Indians minor league system could best be described as “depleted”. The only good position prospect they have coming up is Nick Weglarz (a native of Ontario) and even he is 2 or 3 years away. When the Indians traded Sabathia, they got Michael Brantley, a respectable OF, and Matt LaPorta, a player who has fallen out of favor with the organization and was banished to Columbus AFTER September 1st last year.. For Cliff Lee, the Indians got Carlos Carrasco, he of Tommy John Surgery, A kid named Knapp who has had shoulder issues since the trade and reserve catcher Lou Marson and reserve infielder Jason Donald. That’s rather scant return on two reigning Cy Young winners. It should be noted that when the Indians traded Sabathia, the two players they actually wanted were Brett Lawrie and Alciedes Escobar, but the Brewres deemed them “untouchable”. Yes, they Blue Jays might have to part with a couple of good prospects to get Kipnis, but Kipnis is young and under control by the club for 4 or 5 years. If you have a better idea at second base, I’d love to hear it. The truth is, the Tribe won’t win anytime soon with Kipnis and his value is high. They are better served to move him.

        • @ Jim in Ohio

          Thanks for the info. That is interesting stuff!

          @ Oakville69

          You’re right about the payroll. There’s been so much spin and double-talk, of course we are obsessed by it. Add to that the (so far) well-earned reputation that Rogers are cheap bastards, and you’ve got a pissed-off fan base that has lost a lot of perspective. And I would count myself in on that. At this point I would like to see some substantial green being flashed around. And that isn’t necessarily the way the team should go…

          • @ Isabella.

            I have grown weary of reading any press release from Roger announcing any of these minor trades.

            I don’t get excited about “young , controllable etc ” anymore.

            Unless the player performs on the field , I don’t really care about his contract.

            As Stephen Brunt put it in his most recent article, Rogers has backem themselves into a corner whereby they ae almost forced to spending unwisely for 2013 in order to avoid a backlash against fans.

            Brunt made a point that the currentthinking is that if A does well with a competitiv team & 1 playoff appearance over the next 2 yeas , he gets to takeover Beeston’s job in 2 years when Beeston retires.

            He also said that AA gets to hire one more manager. If the next manger underperforms , quits or whatever happens that doesn’tget the Jays to the playoffs, AA will not get promoted & may get terminated.

            The question is will enough of AA’s picks from 2010 onwards be able to make a difference at the major league level by 2015?

          • For me the interesting thing is still Beeston’s $120 million to $150 million figure he flashed around at the end of 2011. I mean it’s entirely feasible that he just pulled the number out of his ass, or it could be one that was entirely reliable, but based on certain circumstances like a 3 million attendance figure for instance.

            It’s the one thing that’s still giving me hope that there will be significant spending above the $95 million figure that Davidi is throwing around.

            I know it’s probably far more likely that the old charmer Beeston is just whispering sweet nothings in my ear and I’ll end up disappointed, but I guess I’ve still got 3 months to live that dream before spring training starts.

          • But think about it NM.
            Beeston was lying because????
            Maybe he wants to mislead the masses so he can keep his job?Cause he needed the job in the first place?He said 120 million because he thought Rogers wouldn’t notice?

            Or maybe with the way the team was constructed in 2011 and 2012 the timing to increase payroll by 40 or 50 million wasn’t right.

          • No I never said he was lying. I meant he could have just pulled it out his ass or to be nicer, off the top of his head without explaining all the caveats that go with such a figure. Honestly, I am a Beeston fan but I also know that things can change even for guys at his level.

            Like I said, the numbers he was talking about excite me still. I’ve also said previously that even though I would have loved for them to spend last year, I also know a case could be made for not spending considering all the questions that existed at the time. Now whether I put a whole lot of weight in that argument is another story, but yes, objectively I get the reasoning. As for 2011 I know it was a pure rebuilding year and have never said a word here about them spending at that point.

            I guess what I am really saying is that the fanboy in me wants to believe they’ll come through this winter, but it’s a part of me that’s at war with the cynic that doesn’t put a lot of stock in what corporations say they are going to do. The cynic in me also noted that since Rogers took over, they had a payroll in the top half of the league just once when they’ve been the sole owner. In some ways it gets worse when you look at all the other cost cutting that went on under Riccardi with scouting and amateur development.

        • @Jim

          The only good position prospect they have coming up is Nick Weglarz

          Francisco Lindor is a solid prospect also, among a few others – Luigi Rodriguez being another.

          You must understand that the Indians minor league system could best be described as “depleted”.

          While this may be true, that doesn’t mean a team should, or will take a lesser package for their best trade chip. The offer I guessed it would take is a huge proposition. There’s also no guarantees that the Indians would even consider moving a player who will give them decent-to-great value for another 5 years while under team control.

          but Kipnis is young and under control by the club for 4 or 5 years.

          Which, again, begs the question: Why would they trade him? There’s no rush. If he puts up a big season like he’s capable of in 2013, his value will skyrocket. At this hypothetical standpoint, it would take much, much more than Syndergaard, Marisnick and a 25-man player.

          • While I will agree Rodriguez and Lindor are decent prospects, they are not close to major league ready. Weglarz is the closest prospect and he’s 2 or 3 years away. The Indians had the lowest attendance in baseball last year, they can’t afford to wait 3 or 4 years to be respectable again.

            People can agree or disagree with me if they want to, I’m good with it, but there are 3 things we can’t deny:
            1- The Indians and Jays have ben talking.
            2- The Indians have a replacement lined up if they do move Kipnis.
            3- AA and the scouting department hold Esmil Rogers in higher regard than Andrew Bailey. They could have had Bailey for Farrell, so now the trade essentially is Farrell and Gomes for Rogers.

            Oh, and one more bad Indians trade, they sent Alex White and Drew Pomeranz, their top 2 pitching prospects to Colorado for Ubaldo Jimenez. Although White and Pomeranz had bad years last year, they were not major league ready. Jimenez almost lost 20 games last year and had an ERA over 7 in the second half and was statistically about the worst pitcher in baseball last year. I’m tellin’ ya, the Indians are stupid, they’re a team you’ll want to trade with.

          • People can agree or disagree with me if they want to

            Which is what makes light debates like this enlightening and entertaining. I have no issues if people disagree with me, as long as their counter-argument is intelligent enough to bother responding to. :P

            I’m tellin’ ya, the Indians are stupid, they’re a team you’ll want to trade with.

            Lol. Judging from their recent history – most of which you have mentioned – I’d have to agree with you.

            I’d be the first person to admit I’d love to see Kipnis in a Jays uniform, but I also (usually) like to look at this objectively. It just seems unlikely to happen is all.

  93. I agree with Jim on the fact that the Tribe really got scant return for two Cy youngs. Goes to show that hoarding prospects doesn’t always benefit you. The Jays should consider starting to move some this offseason as they aren’t all going to turnout to be stars. ( if any)
    Not likely to happen but i’d like to see them dangle Gose and some pitching arms to Atlanta for Kris Medlen. Bourn will be no doubt leaving as a FA. Braves would ask alot but this Medlen kid would be a great add to the Jays rotation.

  94. Kipnis is a good choice but the suggestion by someone of Syndegaard, marisnick andanother is way too much for a guy who hit .260 ( fuk aviles hit .25o and has hit .280 in the past).
    I could see dealing Rasmus straight up for him or Sierra plus another part like Janssen but nor 3 guys. I actually like Altuve of Housto better aas he hits about .290 with a good glove. Houston already got a lot of our younguns, may as well send em some more

    • Agreed imo the only way one of the Dunedin 3 is going anywhere is as part of a package for a top tier starter. I could see them move Marisnik and another prospect and maybe even a third guy that’s well down in rookie ball.

      And yes Altuve would be cool too. He’d be cheaper than Kipnis and it would be seriously fun to measure Blue Jay events in “Altuves”.

  95. The difference between now and back then is access to knowledge.Most of what you knew about @Radar

    “the Expo’s came from newspapers and TV.Geeks like me had to go to a bookstore ( usually several) to find a copy of Bill James Baseball Abstract.
    Now you can get instant access to the bottom rookie ball player.Prospect lists, rating every player makes every fan an expert.
    Fangraphs,Baseball reference,WAR, xFip.Bahip makes people like Parkes and Drew think they are “experts” of baseball. They are, but only a certain part of it.
    Back then you’d be lucky to get stats and info on AAA players,
    The team may not be better than 2008 but they had no hope of improving.
    The 2013 team does.”

    Very good post. I think fans suffer from too much information. I suppose the new stats have allowed Stoeten, Parkes & others to make a living by using these statistics to discuss baseball.

    I don’t know if Stoeten or Parkes have played baseball at any competitive level, but it seems to me that there are many valid ways of analyzing a team, not just stats based.

    • There is validity in analysis using stats and graphs.Drew and the crew do a great job at it. The problem is that there’s more to the game and stats are ONE of the tools used.
      I’ll leave it for another day.

    • AA has been on the job for just over 3 years.
      His plan, as stated from the outset, was to build a team that had a strong scouting and farm system that could continually feed new talent to the big league club, and had high-upside players developed from within…etc.etc.

      It all sounded good. At the time, I remember thinking: well, if he drafts high schoolers in 2010, and they probably play their first pro season in 2011…and if it takes the BEST players until they’re 20 or 21 to make it to the bigs…the BEST CASE SCENARIO is that elite, home-grown talent MIGHT start showing up on the Jays in 2014. And, many times, pitchers especially take a couple years to get a foothold. so, to me, i’m thinking: if the 2010 draft is successful, you’re thinking about 2016 as being a really exciting year.

      Basically, it’s still 3 years away from a time when you can think of a rotation that relies on any of the “big three” or whoever else you’re dreaming on. that’s not pessimism, it’s just a fact. gose has arguably been rushed, d’Arnaud is in the process…he’s everyone’s hope for 2013 it seems, but he’s someone that was drafted out of high school almost 3 years before AA acquired him…he is now what sanchez, syndergaard, nicolino (at least one of them, it’s reasonable to think) WILL BE in 3 years from now.

      what i’m getting at is, pat gillick took the reigns in 1977. they didn’t make the playoffs until 1985, and even then that was a DRAMATIC and UNEXPECTED run…people wanted him to make moves, but he knew that what he was building was really going to get moving in the following years. 1987 was probably what he saw as that point to make moves.
      Even if you think Gillick should have gone and spent in 1985, that’s 8 years after he took over the system. I think it’s fair to compare the state of the Jays farm in 2009 when AA took over to an expansion team’s because the cupboard was damn near bare.

      All the chuckleheads trying to say how terrible this is, and how they have to do stuff can go fuck themselves. The orilols made it last year, and so did the A’s…are those teams more talented than the Jays are today? I’m hard pressed to say anything other than ‘no’. Bautista might want them to go bring in more guys, but y’know what? you work with what you have.

      i’m as annoyed as anyone that the jays aren’t run as the “yankees of the north” – because it is a CERTAINTY that rogers can afford to do that – but, they don’t owe me that. if i don’t like it, i can cheer for the dodgers, or yanks, or bosox…and maybe i’ll start doing that. but, i can’t shake the fact that i grew up watching this team, so whatever happens, i’m stuck to some degree paying some attention to what the jays do. and in the interest of the long-term success of this team, i’d be MORE pissed if the reactionary garbage idiot “fans” start going all chicken little, forcing AA to 1) overpay for shitty players and 2) trade away the future of the club in deals that aren’t even, when we can probably say for a FACT that unless that results in the unlikely appearance in a playoff, rogers is probably not going to reduce the amount of money it makes of the team in any given year, or invest more on the hopes that some jackasses who makes their living playing a game, might give two shits about their bottom line.

      • ^the history is a bit off, but…still the jiist is correct: AA needs more time to build. if the players are unhappy…trade them. and that includes bautista. plenty of teams could use him. trade him for boegarts and brentz, and so on…i’m not trying to delay anything, but if there are “payroll parameters” unless everyone boycotts rogers other services…they aren’t going to care that some 20- or 30- somethings aren’t in the bleachers, because i’m sure there will be others to take your place.

      • @carbuncle

        I think the Jays can contend in 2013 with a couple savvy moves (why the hell not, the Os and As did in 2012)… but you do make some really good points. It’s easy to forget that AA essentially wiped the slate clean and started over in 2010.

        The fact that the Jays won 85 games in 2010 (when they were expected to be an awful, maybe a 100 loss team) really raised expectations for an accelerated rebuild.

        2012 was AA’s third season. For what it’s worth, in Ash’s third season (97) the Jays went 76-86. In JPs third season (04) the Jays went 67-94

        • well, mlbtr is saying hamilton wants 7 years and 175 million…and, thinking about it in terms of vernon wells…that’s a long time. i mean, if the jays signed him, and a couple guys like mccarthy…i’d be over the moon, but inside you’d also have to be thinking: this could end VERY badly for jays fans. i think there’s similar risk with grienke…if a move doesn’t work out perfectly, there’s a good chance that AA has effectively made the rope that will hang him. and i think he either needs the freedom to piss away TONS of money with no consequences, or he needs to ‘stand pat’ – with the exception of making those small moves that we’ve yet to see pay off.

          at some point they’re going to pick the right jo-jo reyes, or the right tomo ohka, or the right mencherson….and they’ll look brilliant.

      • I agree. Long term success can’t be bought in a couple of off seasons. However, I believe AA should target one or two pieces this season and improve the club. As is, this i still a good team. Injuries and quite possibly a manager who’s heart not totally into the club were circumstances that were beyond AA’s and Rogers control. Having said that, I believe he should try to add something to improve. Not the big splash everyone is looking for but solid players goin forward. No stopgaps unless they’re cheap. Trading some prospects would also be a good idea as most don’t turn into stars. The challenge for Alex is to move the ones who won’t and keep the one who might. But REMEMBER…it’s takes TWO to agree to a trade or a free agent contract. Just because something doesn’t get done doesn’t mean AA isn’t tryin.

        • yea – they should sign some help. no doubt, and maybe they spend more than on guys like cordero. I think it’s a safe bet that the jays will sign the largest FA contract of AA’s tenure to-date this offseason, and maybe he grabs a couple arms…

          i’m just thinking that the more i look at where the system is right now, the more i think that “selling the farm” at this point would probably be as foolhardy as “spend to contend”.

          if AA wants to be bold, it might mean taking a hit on ticket sales by not having the crazy offseason many have anticipated and playing it relatively cool. it’s what most of the best-run teams do every year: the braves, cards, as examples of teams i’d love the jays to resemble in 5 years.

          • Absolutely. A couple of pieces. No spend to contend, a healthy season and this team would be playin meaningful games in sept.

          • The interesting thing about this offseason is that there are some non-star options on the FA market, that could help and should break the bank too badly.

            I think the Jays acquire one of Edwin Jackson or Anibal Sanchez.

            I could see a 4-5 year deal between 13-14 mil a year doing it.

            It’s an overpay, sure, but the Jays need pitching, and at worse the contract shouldn’t be a total noose around your next ala Wells/ARod etc.

          • jackson is basically a league average pitcher with a 97mph fastball.
            he isn’t that good, but he hasn’t broken down yet.

            not the kind of guy you want to sign to a long(ish) deal

          • If you look through Jackson’s stats, since 09 he’s basically been good for 200 IP, a 4.00 ERA and a pretty good K rate each year. Plus he’ll be 29 in the 2013 season.

            I’d have no problem with signing him to a 4 or 5 year deal.

            He’ s not an ace, and he’ll be overpaid. But I think he’d be useful to the Jays.

          • terrible idea. look how terrible mark teahen’s contract looked…and that was a 3/14 deal. each time i looked at cot’s contracts for the jays, i always thought: wow…$5million is a lot of money.
            but, here we have people suggesting that a $40 million/year payroll bump is nothing because…well, they want better players now…
            that money is going to come from somewhere…and it won’t be rogers. so, just like plans for a new stadium start and stop with public funds, plans for $40 million dollars in offseason spending probably start and stop with increased revenues at the gates, or something that can be promised to lead to them…

            again, it would be unwise for AA to simply piss money down the drain on long term deals for FAs at this point. jackson is not even close to being as good as AJ Burnett was, or even IS now, so if you remember how many people wanted to run him out of town for being a “500 pitcher” and not earning the money…i have no idea why you think signing edwin jackson to the same deal is anything like a good idea.

          • @carbuncle

            Well, for one thing, we’re now seven years from where the Jays signed AJ Burnett. That’s pretty dated if you’re looking to compare contracts.

            I’m not sure what Mark Teahen has to do with anything.

            My point was if you can reasonably expect Edwin Jackson to give you 200 Innings with a reasonable 4ish ERA, I’m fine with giving him what it’s rumored to take, because I think he’d be of help to the club.

            Not to piss away or be reckless with money. But because I think adding him and another starter could make a pretty good rotation potentially, and I’d rather not burn all the prospect capital the Jays have.

      • @carbs:

        I hope everyone reads this and starts to understand. i wrote this exact same thing back in August and used to try to fight but got tired of people like Oakville calling me an AA apologist.

        We are the realists on here. Build properly from within and it takes 5-8 years if you consider how depleted JPR left our farm system.
        If AA is allowed to stay the course, build from within, and create a sustainable system, then this team will be feared for years. I think he’s actually ahead of schedule and 2014 will be the start of something special.
        Comparing this to Gillicks reign, it feels like this is 1982 in terms of development.
        These impatient ones drive me nuts. Both Ash and JPR fell for these delusions, signing Clemons, Burnette, Ryan, etc and not taking the time to build from within.

        • The problem with the build it like Gillick routine that everyone likes to trot out when they want to refute spending now, is that they forget to mention that it wasn’t until the Jays bumped the payroll to 1st overall that they were able to win the WS. It certainly wasn’t the only reason they won, but it can certainly be argued that the payroll pushed them over the top.

          People also have to remember the payroll disparity between the median and top team has increased by a huge amount. In 1993 the difference between the Jays at 1st and the median team was roughly 40%. In 2012 the difference is now 115%.

          There’s no question Rogers cheapness under Riccardi lead to the decimation of their system and is largely responsible for the development gap we’re are seeing right now. Of course it’s been exacerbated by the pitching injuries as well.

          As a result of this gap we have a couple of choices. One is do nothing, not spend, let this core go to waste and start finding replacements for all those guys again. Of course the reason to do this is because spending is bad! Very bad! The silly logic goes something like this. It failed the one time we made another very pathetic attempt at spending more starting in 2006 so it must be bad. I mean we raised spending from 16th in 2006 all the way to 13th in 2008!! Yes 13th! 3 whole spots! So forget that shit! We should take the high road to Gillick Land and hope that in 2 years, but probably 3, all the prospects are ready to make an immediate impact at 23 or 24. We should ignore the studies that show in the last dozen years, teams spending in the top 10 have won an average of 87 games to those in the bottom 10 of spending who won an average of 77 games. Let’s just hope an pray that we can be the one fluke low spending team where everything goes right and just squeak into the playoffs.

          The other is to go to the free agent route and plug the holes for the short-term and compliment a group that when healthy was at least a .500 team as late as July with 60% of the rotation gone and Romero sucking balls. Plugging the holes this way allows your younger players more time to develop properly, adds depth and won’t completely alienate the majority of the fan base.

          There’s no question money doesn’t guarantee success but it certainly improves the odds. Why on earth should we wait another 3-4 years for another shot when we can increase our odds of winning now and over the next couple of years with a pretty good team already in place? Spending now with this group isn’t a one and done proposition. If this was two years ago you’d have a legitimate argument but that’s not the case.

        • @Looper.

          Thanks for the shout out.

          Please tell Beeston to stop referring to the 2012 team as the
          1983-1984 team.

          If the Jays want to do a5-8 year rebuild & pretend they were an expansion team when AA took over, that’s fine with me.

          They should tell Beeston to stop promising 3 playoff teams in 5 years.

          • Beeston didn’t promise 3 playoff teams in 5 years.

            He said something to the affect of “I think (or I expect)” we can make the playoffs 2 or 3 times in the next 5 years”.

  96. I agree that it’s going to take a while before AAs picks make a meaningful contribution; unless, of course, he trades some of them.

    Part of the frustration is that AA is expected to make up for Ricciardi’s shortcomings. Ricciardi was selling his college draft picks while suggesting the farm system was barren from the Ash era.

    Of course, Ricciardi got a lot of rope living off of Halladay, Rios, Wells etc.

    Last year, I was in full support of the “not putting the cart before the horse” meme that was prevalent on this blog. But it seems ridiculous now to believe that.

    The base is here to contend. There is oodles of surplus value on our controllable players and a lot more potential in the minors.

    It’s frustrating when, for example, being the highest bidder on Greinke and supplementing with something like Haren, Cabrera, Scuatro and Gomes would only put the team at $120 million for 2013 and it would arguably be as good as any team in the division.

    And that would set up the Jays to pretty much be Texas in a year or two with an elite major league team AND farm system.

    Other than Greinke not being amenable to this, is there any explanation for why it shouldn’t be this way that doesn’t lead to shitty ownership?

    • the problem with Grienke is not that he isn’t good. it’s that i don’t know that he’s going to be good in 5 or 6 or 7 years. look at Haren…if he had hit FA last offseason, it’s pretty easy to imagine him making grienke-like money…and what happens? injury or wear on his arm and you have the angels (who apparently have all the money in the world) thinking a guy that has almost been a 4WAR lock for years isn’t worth a one year investment…

      i really hope the jays don’t sign grienke or hamilton – and that’s because it’s clear that rogers are cheap. if they weren’t, then i wouldn’t care. i just think there are better options available and that if you look back to last offseason, the most sensible people around here were in favour of a 2-3 year deal with beltran. there are guys out there like Youkilis, Melky, etc. who carry those risks, and who might be had relatively cheap…and there’s pitching like McCarthy or Liriano who might want to establish themselves on a shorter deal for a year or two…these are sensible moves that will make 2013 exciting, but won’t completely fuck the team or the farm for years to come (because rogers are cheap).

      if, by some act of god (lol), rogers went apeshit and chose to piss money down the drain, then by all means, sign every free agent.

      • And I have to agree with this. It’s the same reason I didn’t want the Jays to sign Fielder last year (even though Greinke will probably only cost about 60% of that).

        With Rogers, you know the rug could be pulled at any time. So you have to rationalize why it doesn’t make sense to spend big. Which is kinda sad, but I guess it could be worse.

        As Fullmer Fan once said, the Jays shouldn’t have needed to dump Vernon Wells to be able to resign Jose Bautista.

        Which is why I’ve resigned myself to hoping for something like Edwin Jackson (I’d gladly do 4/48 as has been suggested) and a short term flier like Haren for the rotation. As well as a short term LF and 2B for a few mill each.

        I do think we’re going to see a $100 million middle-of-the-pack (finally!) payroll, but it will be devoid of a potentially scary contract like Greinke.

        Which I can live with because I do feel upgrades at LF, 2B with 2 midrotation starters would put the Jays into 85 – 90 win territory.

        It’s just that another $20 million on top of that could put the Jays into 90-95 win territory battling for the division instead of the coin flip game.

      • You can analyze Greinke until the cows come home.

        Bottom line, Jerry DiPoto will not let Greinke walk away, especially after how the Angels are shedding salary (Haren & E. Santana).

        Greinke has every reason to sing with the Angels, as they are the team that wants him the most and will be likely the team to make him the best offer. The Angels gave up two nice prospects to get Greinke yet failed to make it to the post-season. ¸

        That and the fact that Greinke’s hot girlfriend wants to be an actress.

        Let’s put the Greinke dream to bed shall we?

        • Nobody is suggesting the Jays will actually land Greinke.

          Just that they are very capable of offering him the most money while maintaining payroll flexibility IF Rogers were actually willing to spend amongst the top third of teams in baseball.

          If resigning with LAA was a foregone conclusion it would have happened by now.

        • @balls deep.

          I doubt Greinke signs here.

          He refusd to be traded here 2 years ago when he was recovering from anxiety issues.

          Toronto is one of the least stressful places to pitch , so if he wouldn’t come here then, he won’t leave the Angels for the Jays.

          If he is still dating an actress, I am sure she wants to stay in Anaheim rather than go to Toronto.

          The focus should be on Marcum as a free agent target.

  97. agree and I wish some of the ANAL ytic people at rogers would realize that the extra 20m w/b easily recouped if they are fighting fo the div lead with big crowds and ratings not to mention the ton of $$$ that they get from having home games at 50k + at HIGHER prices for the playoff games. I sometimes think the assholes view the Jays operation like they do an accouting department of an operating division.. you kinow salary increases have to be kept to no more than 4% with 6% max to anyone person ( excepth the bosses of course) and everyone has to fill in their goals and objectives and say why they luv the corp yada yada yada. IDIOTS!! Learn some Finance-if the IRR is greater than the investment then do it-in tghis case an extra 20m as mentioned above will likely bring in at least 30m with about a 80% probability). Therofore DO IT!! and stop phucking around. Sign Jackson and either sanchez or dempster

    • I don’t disagree that they’d make up $20 mil if they were fighting for the division down the stretch. it might not be crazy to imagine them bringing in a million more fans through the gate on the season. What’s the average ticket price, $15-$25?

      but it comes back to the question AA has to answer for the keys to the vault: “If we make this extra investment, can you guarentee a winner?” Personally, I would not be willing to gamble my job on Jackson and Sanchez.

      • @That Guy.

        You hit the nail on the head.

        AA gave an interview to PTS with Mccowan last January where he explained the rationale for not bidding for Darvish or any other free agent that would cost 100 million plus.

        He said that he would have to guarantee playoff appearances, if not a playoff win if they gave him the money for Darvish.

        If you are 34 years old with a prestigious GM Job, do you risk your career on Darvish or Fielder??

        The answer is no.

        Rogers has made it difficult for AA to succeed in putting a playoff calibre team on the field.

        On the other hand , most 32 year olds’ don’t get a chance to manage a professional baseball team.

      • I think the Jays have to go apeshit in the free agent pool for starting pitching. I wouldn’t, however, be signing a couple #3 pitchers in Sanchez or Jackson and feel good about the chances of the team competing in 2013.

        If the Jays don’t do their best on all contingencies to set themselves up for a big run next season – I think we all agree they’re poised for this – they might as well trade Bautista and Encarnacion.

        • I should specify that I wouldn’t mind one of Sanchez or Jackson. Just not both.

        • @Indestructible.

          This is the doomsday scenario.

          The Jays fail to get any meaningful trades or free agents signed.

          What does AA do then?

          Does Bautista or Edwin get traded in July?

          I am baffled by the anti-Marcum crowd. Blair said he did something so bad that AA would never let him back in the clubhouse.

          Blair refuses to provide details.

          The speculation here is that Marcum was partying too hard before starts & had to miss games due to flu like/hangover symptoms.

          OK, but that was 4 years ago. Presumably Marcum is a more responsible pitcher now.

          The Jays could use him.

          Of course, my dream would be the return of Halladay but that won’t happen.

          • @oakville

            Take this with a major grain of salt..

            but a year or two ago I chatted with someone who had been in the clubhouse here and there who claimed Marcum was known as a serious womanizer/party-er etc.

            I didn’t know the guy well at all, and could easily be bullshit for all I know, but maybe something to do with his partying/drinking whatever pissed off Jays management.

          • @ anyone slandering ball players. Please keep the personal and unsubstantiated crap out of your blogs – you don’t sound any more authoritative because you heard gossip from some guy in the clubhouse.

          • @oakville

            I don’t think Marcum represents the type of upgrade the Jays need. He’s made of glass, and for his career has putrid numbers against the AL East. Any two of the pitchers below is all I think the rotation needs to be bolstered:

            Anibal Sanchez
            Dan haren
            Edwin Jackson
            Brett Anderson

            Hell, I’ll even lump Greinke into the list, though I doubt he leaves Anaheim. I just wouldn’t want to see Jackson and Sanchez both signed as they’re virtually the same pitcher. I’d prefer Sanchez though since he’s a year younger.

          • birddog: “anyone slandering ball players. Please keep the personal and unsubstantiated crap out of your blogs – you don’t sound any more authoritative because you heard gossip from some guy in the clubhouse.

            Yes. I made it clear to “Take this with a major grain of salt..”, and that I essentially have no idea if it’s true or not. I think I made it pretty clear that I WASN’T authoritative on the matter.

        • If the Jays are serious about contending this year they can do it on a 100 million dollar payroll.

          Sign Anibal, and trade one of the “big 3″ plus another quality prospect for a top-2 SP.

          Fill the LF position with a veteran, proven bat whether it be a Nick Swisher type or whatever.

          • Leave the Lansing kids for 1 more year. Package JPA and a middling prospect for an SP from Texas, or Escobar and a middling prospect to Oakland for an SP.

          • @Carl Sagan

            I agree with you I’d like to see the Lansing 3 kept together another year but I don’t think dealing from the 25-man is a viable alternative. Middle infield clearly hasn’t proven to be an organizational strength and I can’t see them going into the year with TDA as the starting catcher. If they think Hech is ready (I dont believe they do but he’d be serviceable in a pinch) and they can make a couple key signings for 2B and middle infield depth, then that might change.

            I wonder what the market would be like for Marisnick. Could he be swung in a Gose/Wallace-like trade for a player on the cusp blocked at his position.

    • @fukstick.

      Agree 100%.

      The beancounters at Rogers have their analysis upside down.

      They are not looking at th Toronto sports market.

      The Jays are in the best position of any professional sports teams to increase revenues.

      The cost of an extra 40 million payroll to 120 million is minimal compared to the potential revenue increase.

      Now it’s possible that you spend 40 million on 3 free agents who bomb . This can happen.

      On the other hand, you can use the additional payroll to pre sell advertising to companis, boost season/flex pack tickets, increase sales of banwidth on cell phones etc..

      My suspicion is that Rogers was freaked out when JP Riccardi was running the team & were tired of DFA’s players like BJ RYan, Frank Thomas etc…

      Rogers has grown as a company as a result of oligopoplistic practices such as getting a cell phone license, & monopoly cable tv franchise etc…

      They aren’t used to competitive markets like professional sports.

      • i think once you start looking at what you have to do to make $40 million dollars in a year with a baseball team, you’ll change your tune as to whether it is “minimal” or not.

        my point has always been that rogers has the money to INVEST (ie. risk losing) that type of cash, but has instead taken a more risk averse route which still carries a healthy profit…why change now?

        AA is free to put his job/career on the line, but it’s not something i’d do myself unless backed into a corner. i hope he isn’t feeling that way after barely 3 years on the job.

        anyway – i’ll buy my little season’s passes, but i’m not going to pretend that in doing so i’m financing them to go and get grienke.

        • They change now because outside of making a profit, they haven’t been successful on the field. It’s not like spending is going to hamper their profits if they’re ultimately successful. All they have to do is look at what happens to teams revenues that make the playoffs or even the ones that come very close. All it takes is some upfront investments. It’s no different than any of their other businesses. In each and every one they had to spend first to reap the rewards that came after.

        • @carbuncle.

          A 40 million investment should be able to be recouped
          pretty easily in terms of TV & gate revenue in a sports market starved for any successful team.

          • for argument’s sake, let’s say the average ticket price is $20.
            to make $40 million in TICKET SALES means to sell 2 million tickets.

            In other words, if the jays sell out every game next year, they can make $40 million more at the gate.

            of course, if they’re selling out they’re making money on other revenue streams…but i’m just trying to point out that it isn’t “minimal” to raise salary by $40 million dollars.

          • That’s simplistic because you know there’s other revenue streams to consider outside of just the base ticket price. The concessions alone would come close to if not exceed the gate receipts especially when you’re paying $10 for a beer.

          • i take food to the game. so i think i probably spend under $50 all last year at games on myself and friends…out of…almost 30 i went to…

            i think i’d hardly alone in doing this.

            it’s really tangential to the point because, if you’re a jays fan, you probably want to see them spending closer to 190million/year – and i’m just trying to show you that with a full stadium, that’s not a “minimal” task to make up the other 70 million dollars.

  98. I have to say this. If Rogers beancounters have indeed said that they will give AA and Beeston extra money if they can ‘guarantee a winner’ then they should be fired because they are in the wrong job. No one gets to guarantee anything in business. You take your best shot based on the information you have and cross your fingers that it will work out. Business doesn’t run on sure things, it runs on educated guesses. And budgets. And we will find out the budget for 2013 soon enough based on what happens in the next few months. Whatever dumb shit Beeston says, I assume there is a budget ceiling which he will have to live with. One thing I don’t want to hear about is there being a little extra from Daddy if it’s considered absolutely the most special, shiny, terrific goody that the Jays can’t live without. If Nadir kicks in a couple of mil for, say, Greinke, that’s good. But I don’t need to hear the performance around such an acquisition.

    • Business is built on well-informed decision making and calculated risks. Fiscally, I would imagine there’s nothing wrong with the current Jays operation. They have cost certainty, put out a consistent(ly mediocre) product and probably make tidy little profit, all while cross promoting their real money making products. From Rogers’ perspective last season saw them maintain costs and increase revenue. Win-win.

      • @ that guy.

        Sure, putting out a mediocre product works for a few years.

        I credit Rogers for hiring AA & using the SABRE model to try & get a few years of leeway before having to put a competitive team on the field.

        The uniform change is a big plus. I see it everyday downtown.

        Now, can Rogers get away with no significant upgrades for 2013?? My feeling is no.

        It’s possible that a healthy 2013 team based on the 2012 roster with a new manager is on track to get 5-10 wins more than 2012. That puts the Jays at an 83 win pace. OK, but that would be disappointing.

        The cross promotion can backfire if fans get outraged at a Jays team & cancel Rogers cellphone plans & switch to Bell or Telus.

        • I agree it’s not a sustainable model, I just don’t see Rogers as motivated to buck the status quo.

          It’s been touched on a few times, but I don’t think the acquisition of MLSE has garnered the attention it’s due, especially given the lockout. night_manimal mentioning Beeston’s claims of 120-150 payroll for example. I actually thought those comments were made well before the purchase of MLSE was made public but looking it up now I see they actually coincide at around the exact same time. Still, while the lockout may have been foreseeable in Dec 2011 it was far from a sure thing. A hell of a revenue source to be losing after spending the better part of a billion dollars on an asset.

          I’m rambling now, point being that I’m split between hope for a significant payroll increase and resignation that it may not happen in the next half decade. Buffalo 3 2015 I guess…

          • @ That Guy.

            BCE has already reported a loss on their 1Q of investment in MLSE.

            The lockout affects MLSE worse than other NHL teams because of the loss of gate revenue, TV revenue etc…

      • Yes. And that’s basically what I meant. Rogers gave a budget. The Jays have to live with it. All the tap-dancing Beeston and AA are doing around this subject is tiresome. I get that AA doesn’t want to name the figure and I understand why. So let’s just get on with it and see what happens.

        • The post above was aimed at thatguy…

        • @Isbella.

          Very good point.

          AA & Beeston would save themselves a lot of grief if they admitted that they had a fixed budget of 75 million or whatever amount & left it at that.

          The Jays could certainly promote a build from within strategy.

          They could use “tank nation” strategies for a few years to build up high ranking prospects etc..

          However, they would have to accept a few bad years of tv ratings & poor ticket sales.

          • That’s bullshit.

            First off, the Jays don’t appear to have a fixed budget. It appears to be fluid depending on the circumstances and players available etc.

            Second, if they actually said they had, for argumen’t sake, an $80 mil fixed budget, that would piss off the dumbass fans a lot more than being vague.

    • @Isabella.

      Agreed.

      That’s why I am trying to be a bit more mellow this offseason.

      IMHO, AA has until April 2, 2013 to put a playoff calibre team on the field.

      I don’t want to hear any excuses how the Jays offered more years or dollars to player X Y or Z.,but they turned it down because they are afraid of turf, customs or the lack of ESPN.

      If the Jays are in a such a situation that free agents refuse to play for the team, then they should be honest with the fans & build a team exclusively on home grown talent.

      AA can trade his way to success if he wants or beg the fans to wait for the Lansing trio.

      I already bought my tickets for next year & am looking to upgrade some tickets to the VIP section with the excellent prime rib buffets.

      Stop the BS should be the motto for 2013.

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