Shi Davidi and Mike Wilner are doing the lord’s work at the GM Meetings, tweeting out, for all of us to see, a bevy of notes from the final media availability session with Alex Anthopoulos. The Jays’ contingent has departed Indian Wells, but not without the GM having imparted on us one last subtle burst of Rogers-brand optimism about what’s going to take place over the coming weeks– or perhaps just a tacit acknowledgement that, after the way the club’s nonexistent messaging went up in flames last winter, it’s vital to the brand to avoid a repeat.

At least, that’s what I see in the following tweets:

Now, on one hand… that’s awesome. On the other, though, y’know… uh… of fucking course you can. Everyone can. A $15-million AAV deal can be backloaded, and the money coming in from MLB’s new national TV deal in the States with ESPN can be set aside, making that kind of a deal palatable to any club. Still, twisted as it is, it feels like a win to think that Rogers is actually open to not just pocketing their share– that they might actually see the value to their brand in spending money to put a winning team on the field. Now they just have to find someone who will take that money.

I’ve said all along that Paul Beeston’s supposed rule about never going beyond five guaranteed years in a free agent contract seemed more like a way to curb uncomfortable questions about why the club isn’t spending like it needs to, rather than an actual unbending policy– and we see right here that, indeed, it sounds flexible if the right guy and the right deal comes along. Is anyone actually surprised?

 

So… OK, that all said, it looks like the trade route is more likely the way they’re going to go– at least in the near term. And it almost sounds as though we should be ready for something to happen soon. I’m just spitballin’, but the level of due diligence that Anthpoulos thirsts for almost certainly can’t be quenched with a skeleton crew of front office guys making a handshake deal at these meetings– if there’s a big trade on the horizon, a big possibility that has come up, it sounds perfectly natural to me that he’ll head back to Toronto, and find all the background he can possibly get his hands on before actually moving forward.

Or, y’know, it could just be a tossed-off remark that doesn’t mean a whole lot of anything.

In Davidi’s tweet he adds that Anthopoulos said that he has to be willing to make such a deal, which is entirely reasonable. And, wouldn’t you know, they have some redundancies in the outfield, at shortstop, and behind the plate. As much of a luxury as it is to have fall-back prospects at those positions– especially when there are huge question marks on all of Rasmus, Gose, Escobar, Hechavarria, Arencibia, and d’Arnaud– it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense when you can flip some of that redundant value relatively easily in order to fill some of the bigger needs this club has. And, as we all know, there’s really only one area of need that matters: pitching.

This entirely makes sense. It’s just… please not Anthony Gose or Moises Sierra!!!

Additional Notes:

Both Davidi and Wilner also tweeted a comment from the GM about the managerial search, which he characterises as being “in the home stretch,” as well as a comment about Carlos Villanueva, who is currently shopping his services as a starter– a workload Anthopoulos publicly wondered late in the season whether his pitcher would be able to endure. “Absolutely” he’d commit to giving Villanueva the 30 starts he’s asking for, Anthopoulos now says. “I’ve never doubted Carlos.”

Um… OK? I… uh… at least he’s trying to stay in everybody’s good graces, and isn’t ruling himself out of things before even giving them a chance. That, honestly, I think is an improvement– or at least a necessity, if he really wants to splash some money around this winter, which it increasingly sounds like he genuinely does… and maybe is even going to be allowed to.

Comments (326)

  1. I took the AAV comment to imply, as I think has been suggested before, AAV is less important than term.

    Even if the 5 year term limit is extended for the right guy (and, really, other than Greinke that doesn’t apply to anyone), it was 3 years for pitchers and 5 years for position players.

    Other than the longshot possibility of Greinke, I doubt he’d go longer than 4 years on a starter. I don’t think AA wants Sanchez and Jackson to be his Burnett and Ryan.

    • i think it makes sense to move on a trade first… it will be easier to attract a top free agent if the club looks closer to contending.

      • that’s how i read it too. and I really like that approach.

      • Agreed and that’s always been AA’s preferred avenue anyway.

        It sounds like there is a good chance one or two things get done before the winter meetings.

      • Realistically what is happening is: The Free Agent market takes quite a while to develop. The trade market less so, and Anthopoulos seemingly likes to be aggressive whenever he can.

    • I am more along the lines with Stoeten’s reasoning regarding the term limit. As I said in the other post the 6th year for someone like Sanchez isn’t a deal breaker or overly risky especially when you look at the context of the money in 5 years time.

    • there was nothing wrong with the burnett deal. jays got their money’s worth from him, if not more, and then he left prior to his most expensive and ultimately least productive years.

      • I agree. Burnett was completely worth the money while he was here. Also if you look at these deals a couple of years down the road the money doesn’t seem nearly as bad. They just need some perspective.

      • But by that standard the Wells deal was a good deal.

        • And look! They traded him just as he fell off a cliff.

        • When you think about it, yeah. Wells deal was quite backloaded. Jays only really had him for one year when his value was really bad.

          Horrible contract- one of worst in recent memory- but it didn’t end up hurting the Jays too much.

    • If by ‘longshot’ you mean; ‘snowball’s chance in Hell’ then, it is entirely plausible that the Jays might get Greinke.

  2. Between Davis, Sierra and Gose, who would you rather have at LF if nothing changes?

    If Davis starts in LF, who is the 4th OF? Sierra, McCoy?

    • Zero. Davis is at best a platoon guy. They did the fringy prospect thing with Thames last year and enjoyed the putrid results. If they’re serious about developing Gose, give him the appropriate time in Triple-A to hopefully develop into something more than he is.

    • I wouldn’t mind if AA called executive of the year, Brad Pitt handsome like, good old moneyball man himself, Billy Beane, and ask him, what would it take to get Seth Smith?

      Could be a productive LF with Davis?

  3. didn’t we hear a lot of this projected positive momp laast year? And then…nothing happened. I’m frustrated and want to belive they will land at least ONE big fish that is worth talking about ( Greinke-ya right or perhaps SANCHEZ). But please, I don’t want to hear much more about how w e have rescued another guy off the waiver wire who throws 100 except he doesn’t know where home plate is. These guys are then DFA’d 2 weeks later to make room for the next fukin reclamation project. Get one of Sanchez, Jackson or maybe Haren-it’s only fukin money

    • No, pretty sure we didn’t fukstik.

    • @fukstick “it’s only fukin money” Wow kind retard comment of the day. Your screen name was definitely a fitting choice.

      • your a fukin goof. what do I as a fan care about whether we pay a lot for a guy or not? It;s not my cash-Iwant to see abetter team and do away with dumpster diving. A better name for you w/b DUMBO

        • Naaaaaa, Josh is right. Your fuckin retarded

          • you do a grave insult to retarded people. See you cannot refute an argument using germane thoughts or a well thought out counter proposal. No your retort is merely an asinine name calling extravaganza.
            That makes you both a fukstik and a fukin asshole. Pretty good combo and hard to achieve. Well done

        • When a team has a budget, (and every team does with a max at 189 per year) you don’t care if AA decided to whomever money just for the sake of it? So you would be ok if he dropped 40M per for Greinke just because it isn’t your money?

          Thanks for your insight.

          • yes, I would if it led to a championship, It has been the Jays M.O. over the years,twit, where they do analysis and analysis ( with emphasis on ANAL) and talk themselves into believing e’thing is too expensive. OF course they have a budget and it has to be considered but if you are not willing to spend big $$$ in MLB you’ll always be a crap team. That is a fact. Yeah sure e’once in awile a team like TB has a good run, but then they start losing their players because they can’t afford them. If the Jays want to dumpster dive every year then stop with the corporate BS and come clean on the issue.
            You must work in a corporation because u sound like you believe in the “oh no we CAN”T pay this guy more than that guy” Oh no we must cut everyone else back. Gimme a break and FO

          • @fukstick

            1) Spending money does not guarantee a championship, even a fucking chimpanzee has figured that out. You think the Giants had the highest payroll? How about the Cards? From the AL you have the Rangers, Rays, Orioles, Athletics who have all been pretty good.

            2) It has been Rogers MO to not spend money? Beeston said when the time is right, and Godfrey spent when JP asked him to (BJ, AJ and Glaus. Sorry I don’t think the Jays were a Prince Fielder away from the playoffs last year, and this year it is pitching they need. There is only ONE elite free agent on the market. Sanchez/Jackson aren’t going to be the Jays messiah.

            3) I understand the economics of baseball thus I understand that a corporation who has an obligation to its SHAREHOLDERS to create value, doesn’t want to spend money on redundant and overpriced assets. I don’t think that you understand reality, It is hard to convince a player to move to a new country, in to the AL EAST when the team hasn’t made the playoffs since 93. that is the definition of a TOUGH sell. On top of that Jays fans sell out one game a year (Home opener) Boston/Yanks sell out every game… where would you want to play? (Not to mention the Canadian tax system/cost of living is so much higher)

            Get a grip with reality, the basis of your statement is so unbelievably wrong therefore every comment that you make after is garbage.

            Don’t put the cart before the horse, the Jays can’t just sign guys to be a contender, they need to become a contender through draft/trades/international free agents/player development in order to attract talent on the open market.

            Look at the Oilers getting Schultz…

      • Hey don’t fuck with the Fukstik bitches.

        I’d drink with him in the nosebleeds and throw my empties at you Greek Salad tossers.

        Alex seems to be getting too many rusty trombones from you guys and I don’t like it. You should be breathing down his neck like me with nasty Jack Daniels breath. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not casting him into JP land of Retardi……….. But I’m watching this fokker.

        • Blech Greek salad. I wouldn’t eat anything bought at the RC. It’s all completely disgusting. Especially the heavily-salted popcorn made specially to force you to be so dehydrated you have to buy an extremely overpriced drink.

        • the nosebleeds it is-i’ll buy you a cold one and we’ll fire em at the dicks and get tossed-just like the old days

        • We are all watching him. And so far every one of his moves have been calculated with great rationale behind them (minus the Snider trade). Not sure what you are getting at.

          AA has been great up to this point, not sure how you would see it otherwise, unless you are referring to the season in which Bautista/JPA/Lawrie/ half the pen, and 3/5ths of the starting rotation went down to injury.

          You lose the core of your lineup, your best pitcher forgets how to pitch, and the remainder get injured and you blame the GM.

          Laughable.

          • what’s fukin hockey got to do with anything,moron-schiultz-he’s in hogan’s heroes for fuksakes. FO Hockey.
            Now as far as you understanding economics bla bla bla I’ll take your worf for it-I just hope your smarter than Krugman and all the other economists that have us in such a mess
            I doubt u ever played competitive ball beyond the stoney creek midgets or whatever.
            Ok, you understand economics-I understand the mindset of fans and ballplayers having got as far as A ball and they want to play for a winner and they want to see a team committed to winning NOT just talking about it. This means spending money
            And one thing you don’t understand is Accounting-if u really think the Jays are anywhere near losing money you might want to look up the concept of transfer pricing because it is only on paper my friend-why do u think Rogers can keep paying morer dividends despite what the Jays do?? Cashflow my friend , not BS profits
            No, what u say is garbage, because u can only deal in theory NOT what is. Take a hike. Carry on

        • +5,000,000

          The pro-AA crowd are mostly non-paying children with no concept of what PROFESSIONAL baseball is all about. Championships aren’t won on the exel spreadsheet, they’re won on the field. That takes top-end talent and the safest way to obtain top-end talent is to buy it.

          • Yes because the Marlins showed that you can buy a championship, and the Red Sox did the same, and the Angels, and the Yankees.

            What the hell do you know about professional baseball?

          • precisely. Well put. Now I owe you a beer as well as KGBS

            • FUKSTIK

              Keep on keepin on baby. See you in the 300s. I’ll have a paper bag on my head, but you will recognize me by smashing Red Sox fans over the head will empties and I will have a gorgeous blond mullet water falling on my back.

    • Trust me, if the Angels shopped Haren before the option deadline and almost dealt him to the Cubs until they nixed the deal. and then the Angels declined their option, the Jays would be nuts to sign him.

  4. “AA: I don’t know that we’re close to doing anything (right now), but better chance for a trade than a free agent signing. #Bluejays #Jays”

    Isn’t it what this fucker said last year after GM meeting?

  5. I think trading Gose is a mistake. We shouldnt do it unless its landing us someone really great. But i think he will become a great player. *shrugs*

    • after we saw how much hech and gose improved on the 2nd call up it seems that this is very reasonable. its just to early to tell yet how they’re going to to turn out and the fact that they could show noticeable improvements on a 2nd call up brings up the possibility that they could really be great. i’d absolutely hate to find out we traded away something great.

      already its still kinda bums me out that we let Downs, Scutaro, and Molina go. those guys were a lot better than i think we gave them credit for. I don’t know enough to say who we got back in terms of draft comp for them but I’ve always kinda wondered if we would have been better off trying to hang on to them.

      point being, I don’t think we should let Villaneuva walk. yeah so he can’t be a full year starter. fine. agreed. but for 2 years he’s been one helluva starter for the majority of starts he gave us until tiring out. having that guy in the pen and giving him the 15-20 starts is probably no problem given the inevitable injuries every single year. sign him as a reliever but pay him somewhere between reliever and starter. would he really not take that?

      • We replaced Scutaro with Gonzalez who we traded for Esco, so that is at worst a wash.

        I’m not sure if you mean Bengie or Jose, but neither of them are/were very good at all.

        Downs was tough to lose, but you can’t hold onto all of your FA relievers, it’s part of the game

        • @tochermaime If it were that simple regarding the Villanueva situation Alex would have re-signed him already. It’s pretty clear he wants a guaranteed spot in a rotation along with a starter’s salary (I’m guessing he’s gunning for 13-15M over 2 years minimum) and he’s just not worth that. .

          • well. what is he worth since you seem to think you can play GM all over the place? what are you, a tight assed accountant?

        • Not to mention that we got 2 of the Lansing 3 that everyone’s drooling about as compensation picks for letting Scutaro walk. Given that packaging Sanchez and Nicolino together without adding anything else is probably worth a player of more value than Scutaro at this point, it’s hard to call that a move worth being bummed out over.

        • Plus didnt they get 2 extra draft selections for Downs?

      • And Scutaro landed us Sanchez

    • Agreed

      • and the Jays finished 22 games out of first, 16 games below 500.
        So, kudos to AA and Rogers for a job well done.

  6. I think it’s cute watching him try to be more open and transparent.

    • most of the media in the city is owned by his bosses. i really don’t get how they’ve had SO MANY PR DISASTERS in the last year.

      i would have thought parkes would have been all over this many times over by now – as, ims, he worked in pr before doing this full time.

      • PR disasters? That is just stupid media and stupid fans.

        Look at the trolls on sportsnet and TSN, they don’t know what they are talking about. The intelligence (or lack there of) is astounding. Should Cox and Simmonds really be allowed to talk about baseball?

  7. sanchez is the kind of move the jays have made once before when they signed aj burnett to a contract that was believed to be above-market value. it worked out okay, i guess. griff probably will shit all over the deal after sanchez’ first bad start until he runs both him and the gm out of town (at least in his imagination that’s how it seems to work)

    • I think Griffin turned on AA right after Griffin’s “source” was way off that the Jays had the high bid on Darvish. I believe he then “demanded” AA let everyone know whether or not the Jays bid on Darvish.

      Thus AAs honeymoon was over. At least with Griffin.

      • well, i’m willing to categorize that as a major missed opportunity. aa has gone public with his reticence for not strapping on his big-boy pants on chapman, and i guess you could argue that darvish wasn’t someone they saw the same potential in…

        truth be told, i’d rather have darvish than sanchez, and it looks like they’re both going to end up dinging the same amount. this isn’t a hindsight opinion. i think darvish will get even better next year, and even if he doesn’t the fact that his salary is basically $10million/year means no one looks at him as this monster who is crippling the team and not earning their paycheque for being the team’s highest paid player.

        this might not be backed up by stats, but i don’t think a mid-rotation starter should be the highest paid player on any team. seems like a bad recipe for team chemistry.

        • @carbuncle Yes it is a hindsight argument because your stating it now WITH THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT. Also your ocmpletely forgetting about the posting fee for Darvish. So his contract is not the only cost in play regarding him and if you add his contract and the posting fee together (115-120M) it equals much more than what Anibal can expect to get. Not too mention it’s not like there’s no red flags with Darvish’s performance this year…he walked a shade under 5 people per 9 innings this year.

          • it’s an argument i made last year. this year’s FA crop was not likely to have the same high-end talent, so spending big was a task best accomplished last year on fielder or darvish. i’m not the only one that felt that way.

            i think the urgency this year, on the other hand is more likely to produce counter-productive results. an opinion i’ve maintained for over 12 months, which has been reified by a year of baseball in which many of my thoughts were confirmed.

            darvish isn’t paid that, his former team is. instead of thinking of the cost to the organization, think of the social dynamics created when someone in your workplace that does half as much as you gets paid twice as much. it’s annoying, but if you think you have to keep working to get paid, you will…if you’re already getting paid and your performance is irrelevant (ie. if you’re on a long term extension) and you don’t feel like a bro with your team, then really all you have to do is punch the clock like every other slacktivist in history.

            i’m not saying it’s right, and i’m not saying this is something i’ve run the numbers on. it’s just something i’ve observed to be true in real life many times. maybe it’s different in baseball players, but i doubt it.

            you could also argue that signing a FA pitcher would buoy the confidence of the fledgling team, and galvanize their desire to WIN NOW. i’m just at a loss to think of a single team that’s succeeded by doing that.

      • Hey thats right . I remember that. And I remember thinking how indignant he was about it. Ya know the funny thing about it is he and some other members of the press think for some reason they’re on a mission from God. Dude, it’s just baseball.

    • Griffin smells like male bag.

  8. is james shields someone you would trade JPA for?

    • Duh, yeah. But the Rays are not that dumb.

    • Sure, I would, but quite obviously Tampa will not. JPA is a .230 hitter who never walks and plays ok defence. OK catcher overall but so is Russell martin and Salty of Boston neither of which will get shields either.
      It would take JPA++

    • They’ll probably want a Latos type deal. And why not? Hasnt he got some kind of incredible complete game stats? That has an amazing effect on bullpens, essentially giving them extra day off every 5-10 days.

      • The Reds got 4 years of control on Latos, including one pre-arb year (2012) where he made barely over the minimum. Shields has at most 2 years of control left at a combined $21 million. Shields will command nowhere near a Latos-type deal.

  9. My thought process is: While the Jays can accommodate that type of AAV, can they infuse that type of contract to the roster, and still have money left over to fill other needs.

    It’s a step in the right direction, but it’s once again saying a lot without actually saying much of anything.

    • …and that.. is what we have heard a lot of the last couple of years. It is Time for Fukin action and less BS. If there is a trade brewing then let’s move on it so some of these FA s see we are serious ( we are serious aren’t we???). The only real proof of course will be spending $$$

      • i don’t see making a mid-rotation starter the highest paid player as exactly sending the correct messages to players. that means when lawrie, and rasmus, and whoever else come time to sign an extension, they’re going to say: well, i outperformed Sanchez and he got above-market dollars to come here. I’ve been here and loyal to the team, and my loyalty should be similarly rewarded…otherwise i’ll go elsewhere.

        you basically price yourself out of resigning some of your own players this way. if you think enough of the guys you like are locked up long enough for that to not really matter…sure. 7 years is a long fucking time to have a carlos zambrano or barry zito deal on the books. a long fucking time.

        • I’m wondering at this point if the postion players compare their salary to the pitching staff and vice versa. If i was RR I’d definitely wonder about paying Sanchez what he’s asking…if i didnt stink the joint out this year that is.
          The other thing is that as Stoeten has been saying “10 million is the new 5 million”. And when their contracts are up…it’ll be 15 million.

      • No we haven’t.

        Last year they said PAYROLL PARAMETERS… how does that in any way say WE ARE GOING TO SPEND. Stop talking out of your ass. Prior to that AA said he wanted to build through the system. Both years he said he doesn’t see the free agent market as an avenue YET, but he would try and build through TRADES. Stop making stuff up.

  10. I think that’s the most interesting tidbits of info we have gotten from AA regarding future plans in a long time. I am struggling to remember when he’s been less opaque or guarded when it comes to likely moves and I can’t honestly think of another time.

    If you combine the three tweets regarding a trade being more likely first, attractive things in place and the willingness to move young players. he’s painting a pretty nice picture. Based on what we’re seeing from free agent demands so far you’ve got to wonder if the team hasn’t rethought it’s approach. Instead of spending all the dollars for pitching I think they might trade from the MLB roster and then fill the holes created with free agents who are likely to be cheaper at the other positions. Getting another catcher if they were to move JPA as part of a package for a starter would certainly be more cost effective than paying $16 million a year for an #3 or #4 starter on a good team. Same goes for the outfield. Not that his value is anywhere near his peak, but could Colby be on the move too? I figure the last one is probably doubtful but it just might be a way of improving the team if they just can’t afford a player in a bidding war.

    • Is it Holland, Is it Neise, is it Anderson? Who is the lucky winner of JPA + prospect.

    • Yeah, I seriously doubt if they’d up any bid even once if some team came along and sweetened the pot on any FA. But, the alternatives are 1/ Trade the farm or 2/ Trade one or two of Hech, TDA, JPA , Escobar and maybe Rasmus, Davis, or Sierra.

  11. Also it wouldn’t surprise me to see him go and move a reliever after what he’s said. I think it falls in line with moving a young player for a starter.

  12. Oh, Colby is in play allright as is JPAPerhaps they both go n the same deal or maybe separate ones. Personally I can see them both sent to either Cleveland or the NYmets where we match up well as both clubs need catching and OF help. From Cleveland we would be targetting either Masteron or Kipnis or both, and from NYM we would be lloking at Niese, GEE, and maybe Dickey??

    • cleveland baseball team doesn’t need a catcher, however, mets and rays are the two best fits for JPA in a trade for pitching

      • remember, they have talked openly about moving Santana to 1B as they are not happy with Kotchman and they want to save Santana’s knees per cleveland blog

      • JP and Henderson Alvarez for R.A Dickey.

    • Ugh Masterson.We have a Masterson in Alvarez imo who throws harder and is 5 years younger. Masterson is in the same boat as Neise. 2 bad seasons in 3 years, one pretty good season but no major change in his k/9 or bb/9 rates suggesting something has changed for the better. Both Masterson and Alvarez are extreme ground ball pitchers and we’ve seen both be very good and also downright brutal. Not sure I’d be giving up prospects or major league pieces for a guy I’d rather have in AAA right now at this stage.

      • I don’t think Masterson would cost much as Cleveland is eager to deal him. He eats innings. And at this point, is a far better option than Alvarez, who could benefit from some time in AAA.

        • No question that Alvarez could use more time at AAA but looking at Masterson’s two poor seasons I’d be willing to go with Happ over him and save my prospects than dealing for a guy we have 2 off already. For me to say I’d rather go with Happ basically says it all.

          • How fucking hard would it be to teach Alvarez a changeup? Frasor did it in an offseason. There’s all kinds of great changeup coaches out there who could teach it to him so he’d be ready by spring training. Doesnt he have a slider (or facsimile) too?
            Geez get someone on this guy! He’s got too much great stuff to not do it!

      • point taken

        • hes actually a good pitcher thats developed solid number 3

          • @ Carl.

            Alvarez throws a changeup. When he’s had a good feel for it, he ‘s been effective with the pitch. But its not anywhere close to being a plus pitch.

            Alvarez is living off the 2-seamer and 4-seamer way too much. And he is always in the hitting zone. Hitters often swing and get weak contact, but eventually, MLB hiters know how to square up his stuff.

            I wouldn’t mind Alvarez working on a splitter or a true cutter. He’s thrown a hybrid cutter-slider, but not with any degree of success.

            Perhaps Delabar can teach him a splitter and Morrow could teach him a hard slider? Either way, I think Alvarez could benefit with an extended stint in AA or AAA, to harness is off-speed stuff.

            He’s got a great arm, is only 22, and is competitive on the mound. His ceiling can only go up.

          • trade for R.A Dickey and have him teach Cecil the knuckler.

            • Left handed knuckler, I like It!

              Okay stat Star Wars convention attending saberlosers, anyone ever hear of a lefty knuckler?

  13. Trade for Upton! Yes, Starting pitching is still needed but this will end the discussion of who will start in LF bs of the likes of Davis, Gose or Sierra!

  14. get Jackson for at least half that and maybe find another SP on the trade market

  15. I’m still really curious to see what happens with Haren. Still lots of questions marks there but man if he’s healthy he’s going to be a steal for whatever team gets him.

  16. Honestly I hope we do make a trade before we sign anyone, the guys out there in FA, minus Grienke, are not top of the rotation guys and we need a top guy. In saying that I hope we move a roster player i.e.. jpa, Escobar, Lind or rasmus, before we move any of the other top prospects. I realize a prospect will have to be added for a trade to happen just hoping a 2nd tier one will suffice with an actual MLB player.

  17. I think parsing AA’s every word=debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I will take a wait and see attitude this off-season. If he does make a big acquisition or two I’ll be happy but I have no great expectations.

  18. JPA + ______ = R.A. Dickey?

    • Mets need a catcher.

      Jays have depth at catcher.

      JPA is a JPR guy.

      Jays need innings – R.A. Dickey led NL last year

      Jays will spend on AAV but not years. R.A. Dickey is 38/39, there is not way he would be looking for more than 3/3 years.

      R.A. Dickey is a thoughtful/worldly baseball gentleman. Toronto could be a place he wounld’t mind extending a contract in.

      R.A. Dickey s not that expensive this year which would leave room for other moves.

      R.A. Dickey will be gone buy the time the wave of surgically repaired are and prospects are ready to take his place.

      • ***Jays will spend on AAV but not years. R.A. Dickey is 38/39, there is not way he would be looking for more than 2 or 3 years.***

      • Good point about him being more of a worldly guy or at least seeming to be one. Was thinking something similar this afternoon when his name came up.

      • Hed also be a good bridge to The A ball guys.

      • Knucklers usually retire much later than normal* pitchers:
        Wakefield 45, Hough 46, Wilhelm 48, Phil Niekro 48,..etc etc etc
        Having said that , wow would I ever make that deal!!
        Think of the innings Dickey could give you!

        *Jamie Moyer wasnt normal!

      • The Mets wont be trading him until he’s received his Cy Young award. Then the price goes up. I’m a bit confused by that though. First, how can they possibly trade a guy with a Cy Young award. And second, how could they possibly trade him for JPA and a fielder who cant even figure out which sunglasses to wear?
        Anyway is that just speculation here, or is that an *actual rumour?

        *whatever that is…

        • I haven’t read it anywhere. This is a “fit” that I identified back when we still thought the Jays had a shot of acquiring starting pitching help before the shit hit the fan last year.

          As for the Cy Young award, I agree, its’s a bit odd offering decent young players with some upside, as opposed to great prospects or young players, but the difference here is that Dickey is 38 years old, not 28 and coming off a Cy Young. His long term asset value is just different.

          JPA as a “big power” guy that will play well in Citi field (as illustrated in my links in this thread) is something that the Met have to be looking for.

          He is young and controllable at reasonable dollars (remember the Mets are not too far removed from near bankruptcy). He’s about as young and inexpensive to arbitration status relative to peak performance years without having to endure the agony of a rookie learning a difficult defensive position.

          Catcher is a position who’s marketplace is generally weak, or getting old or injured.

          JPA has the media chops to handle NY and thus take pressure off other assets the Mets may have who may struggle talking to the press. Have I ever worked in a NY MLB team front office, no, but this has to be taken into account, especially if the player scores significantly in either the positive or negative.

          Add that the AGM of the Mets drafted him to begin with which would create a reasonable amount of comfort on the Mets end.

          Put this all together and, in my opinion, you have a situation where the conversation doesn’t have to involve with the Lansing three. Yes, a decent piece or two will have to be added. But considering how much Met specific value JPA will bring maybe it can get done with some adds from the prospects on the back end of the Baseball America top 10 prospects list, as opposed to the top 5.

    • +1

    • Marisnick

    • As I said in the other thread, I think JPA & Sierra is enough. I personally wouldn’t go much above that.

      FWIW, Keith Law’s Insider piece basically said JPA is more of a backup catcher but he’ll have some value just because there are very few good options out there.

      There is a pretty good chance his value won’t get higher. And if he ends up in a pitcher’s park that takes away some of his HRs, he’s going to be in Olivo/Barajas territory pretty soon with that K/BB ratio.

  19. There’s very few players on this current major league roster that are “untouchables”, IMHO
    I believe anyone not named Bautista, EE or Lawrie could be packaged up and sent off to get a quality top/middle of the rotation pitcher, and/or a decent slugging LF’er.
    Escobar, JPA, Rasmus, Lind, Davis – any one of them I’d happily bid adieu for a DECENT (repeat, DECENT) pitcher. I’d be loath to trade Hechy or Gose or D’Arnaud, however. Mind you, everyone seems to want to dip into the minors for the young gems.

    • I would have no problem packaging EE if it meant scoring a true #1 ie Price or #2 ie Shields, Anderson or Johnson somehow. Notice i said PACKAGE im not suggesting EE straight across for any of those names so were clear. I realize Johnsons contract isnt sexy for AA and Anderson has fought injury in the past but if the Jays stay healthy their going to be fine scoring runs in my opinion.
      They are starving for an elite starter if they have any hope in contending their gonna need to pull the trigger on trading for a Gamer. Pitching wont come cheap so if it meant moving EE I would do it.

      • Wow really?….That kind of bat. He was on his way to 45 HRs and it looked like Jays found Joey B the kind of protection he needs. I’d do it too I guess. I mean D’Arnaud could provide a pretty good bat. Dont know about sending him to the Rays though. I mean they’re in the same division and all. But Price or Shields would give us instant credibilty.

  20. I’m gonna lose it next time i open Mlbtraderumors and it says “jays have signed” and it turns out to be some sack of shit to play in AAA….

  21. Photo: Pink Fiction

  22. I would think AA would want to get a trade done relatively quickly, honestly.

    I think TO would be an easier sell to a FA if he can point to a new acquisin and say “see? Look at what we’re doing. we’re serious about competing.” i think the talent on the team is more important than the manager and improving that will help him more than anything else.

  23. AA just spend the money and put a winning team on the field already. Enough of the conservative route you aren’t going anywhere that way. If you spend and win they will come !

  24. Here’s a good one:

    JPA, Brett Cecil and Deck McGuire to New York for Cano!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Perhaps thats too much for Cano.

  25. No but really E5 for a stud pitcher is quite possibly the dumbest idea I have ever heard.

  26. Shi Davidi quotes AA as saying there are some unknown candidates for the manager’s job who preferred to keep their interest quiet. I assume he’s not talking about Art Howe. But there’s your mystery candidate(s).

    • mike quade? he was working for the cubs during the last search and his contract expired at the end of the 2012 season.

  27. Seriously, I know Sanchez is one of the biggest names on the free agent market but 90 million and 6 years for a guy thats had a winning record (barely 13-12) since 2006 and couldnt even pitch for a winning record with the American league champions this season?

    Now now, before everyone starts flying off the handle and shouting that wins/losses arent everything before throwing all sorts of stupid obscure stats at me. Sorry but I dont give a fuck what stat you throw out there, 90milliong and 6 years is way too much for a pitcher with career numbers like Sanchez. It really is THAT simple.

    Let the fucking Red Sox overpay for this guy, instead sign someone cheaper and more effective.

  28. You guys i think we should make a run at Lohse, he has won at lwast 14 games in 3 of the last 5 years. he doesnt strike many guys out but he pitches to the score. i think 4/60 should get it done.

  29. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-effects-of-the-luxury-tax/

    “That’s right, avoiding the luxury tax for just one year re-sets a team’s tax rate to the lowest under the CBA. Even for the Yankees, the difference between a 50% tax rate and a 17.5% tax rate is significant.”

    file this under:shitty fucking news…the cba is basically designed to be a fuckyou to toronto…

    • they deserve to get fucked. Cheap ass losers gaming the system, no intention of producing a winning club. Fuck them in the ear.

  30. Could it be the Jays on Ryu that there hasn’t even been an announcement yet? There are other teams that can keep secrets though…

  31. Love to see AA speaking more openly, but the communication problem from the team has been an inability to deliver on their vague (or specific, Beeston you asshole) promises. It’s great that he says $15MM AAV is reasonable, but it feels like that’s the total AAV of all of AA’s free agents so far. I’m really psyched for this offseason because it seems like AA is committed to at least one pitcher, but to quote Jerry McGuire, “SHOW ME THE MONEY!”

    Also, why did we trade all the LF again? Makes less and less sense to me as time goes on.

    • Boy you guys sure are gullible. You guys dont think the perhaps , just maybe, they jays realized what how bad it was for fan morale to hear things like payroll parameters and never going over 5 years on a deal, not to mention the darvish crap and the jays are the front office has been coached up on how to speak and drop morale boosting quips without actually saying anything real? cause that is what has happened thus far.

      im not saying they wont follow through on their words, but people on here are eating it up like its a damn fact.

      i choose to wait and see

      • @Alaskan.Ghost Rider.

        I agree with the” wait & see attitude. ” Despite the popular notion on this board that AA doesn’t care about fans, his bosses do. There is no advantage for them purposely annoy & threaten fans with showing up or else.

        There is nothing wrong with the team being more flexible. No one puts a gun to AA’s head & says sign Sanchez for 20 miliion per year or else.

        It’s best to see what AA can do by April 2, 2013.

      • Agree. It is the time of the year to start selling season tickets & flex packs.

        After last year’s fiasco, it would be foolish to antagonize fans. I am sure Rogers has a marketing department that follows fan reactions, so AA is told to be more optimistic & not rule anything out. It doesn’t cost Rogers anything.

        • Last year’s “fiasco’ was followed by a significant increase in attendance and TV numbers.

          So much for that fiasco.

          • We’re a little slow up here in the Big Smoke but we’re not stupid. Jays can’t expect a repeat of last year, the goodwill is almost gone.

  32. Quite the thread.

  33. I was bored and figured I’d go through the list of free agent pitchers to see if we’ve been missing anyone in our discussions…
    *these are the types of guys that prevent stupid signings and can serve as place holders while everyone recovers from tommy john surgery. they’re better bets than tomo ohka or victor zambrano, or whoever to actually stick for the year you might have to sign them, but none of them are guys to get too excited about doing much more than being better than ja happ, and maybe having some upside to finish the year with the club, or net some kind of return at the trade deadline

    erik bedard
    (maple dick alert!) was good for 1/3 of a year last year and no one is talking about him. really he was the victim of an inflated hr/fb rate further in the year.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/erik-bedard-walks-the-plank/

    he lost velocity last year, but i’m comfortable with the assertion that he’s better than happ, even if he can only throw 120 innings a year. If he had not started to suck, and the pirates hadn’t considered themselves contenders at the deadline, he might have parlayed into something useful for them in 2013…the jays might do well to gamble on him this year. Last year he signed for 4.5million, so maybe he can be had for less than that.

    scott feldman
    fangraphs just put out an article calling him the ‘poor man’s brandon mccarthy’
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/scott-feldman-the-poor-mans-brandon-mccarthy/
    last year his fip and xfip improved dramatically, but the results have lagged, although they do show noted improvement. he’s probably not talked about that much because of all the rest of the pitching in texas, and the fact that he’s only had 40 starts over the last 2 years.

    Kevin millwood,
    Probably done, tbh. But he’s been okay the last couple years. Enough to warrant a look.
    Anyway, those are just the guys that I think could be good sp that are out there and I haven’t seen mentioned yet. I’d be happy if they rolled the dice on someone like liriano, or pryed mccarthy from Oakland, or just finally landed baker who they’ve been after for ages. Other than that, I think the only sane plays are going the trade route.

  34. I was bored and figured I’d go through the list of free agent pitchers to see if we’ve been missing anyone in our discussions…
    *these are the types of guys that prevent stupid signings and can serve as place holders while everyone recovers from tommy john surgery. they’re better bets than tomo ohka or victor zambrano, or whoever to actually stick for the year you might have to sign them, but none of them are guys to get too excited about doing much more than being better than ja happ, and maybe having some upside to finish the year with the club, or net some kind of return at the trade deadline

    erik bedard (maple dick alert!) was good for 1/3 of a year last year and no one is talking about him. really he was the victim of an inflated hr/fb rate further in the year.

    he lost velocity last year, but i’m comfortable with the assertion that he’s better than happ, even if he can only throw 120 innings a year. If he had not started to suck, and the pirates hadn’t considered themselves contenders at the deadline, he might have parlayed into something useful for them in 2013…the jays might do well to gamble on him this year. Last year he signed for 4.5million, so maybe he can be had for less than that.

    scott feldman

    fangraphs just put out an article calling him the ‘poor man’s brandon mccarthy’
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/scott-feldman-the-poor-mans-brandon-mccarthy/
    last year his fip and xfip improved dramatically, but the results have lagged, although they do show noted improvement. he’s probably not talked about that much because of all the rest of the pitching in texas, and the fact that he’s only had 40 starts over the last 2 years.
    Kevin millwood,
    Probably done, tbh. But he’s been okay the last couple years. Enough to warrant a look.
    Anyway, those are just the guys that I think could be good sp that are out there and I haven’t seen mentioned yet. I’d be happy if they rolled the dice on someone like liriano, or pryed mccarthy from Oakland, or just finally landed baker who they’ve been after for ages. Other than that, I think the only sane plays are going the trade route.

  35. What happened to Rich Harden? is he dead or something?

    • Per wikipedia..

      Harden missed the 2012 season due to a chronic muscle capsule injury which has been an issue since 2007 season with the Oakland Athletics.

    • he was good in 2010 or whenever the rangers had him…but i think he’s probably toast. i’ve always wanted to see him in toronto, but i think he has more of an affinity for oakland and the west coast than canada…so, if he were to sign for a spring training invite, or minor league deal…i would guess it would be in oakland

  36. Just looking around and it seems there’s a new rumor.

    Word is the Mets are understandably waiting for the cy young announcement to put Dickey on the market. When they do its expected that the Jays will be the front runners. One guy figures the deal will look a little like JPA, Sierra and a pitching prospect for Dickey and a prospect. The guy also thinks that there’s a chance that the mets will try and ship Santana out with Dickey if they can and eat over half of the owed

    Dickey wants 3-4 years and probably a front loaded 50-60 million for an extension. Id take that!!

    • if they could do dickey and johan, for mostly just jpa…that’s something to get fired up about.

    • Uhhhh no thanks. Im very skeptical a 39 yr old knuckleballer can sustain his performance agianst tougher AL lineups. To be a mid rotation starter, sure. Not as a frontline guy. Plus santana isnt even that good anymore. Better options out there

      • Phil Niekro was consistently good through his age 45 season. dickey’s knuckler(s) might be better considering he throws his hardest one 10mph faster than anyone ever. his k-rate jumped last year. even without the jump, if you’re just getting the guy he was the previous two years, he’s probably still the jays’ best, most consistent starter. certainly worth at least jpa+ a couple bits.

        • Not to mention, RA will fuck up the timing on opponent bats for the next day starter.
          I know that’s an old-school trope, maybe one of you nerds can look into that and see if the numbers bear it out.

      • Tim Wakefield would like to talk to you about that remark. And 39 years old for a knuckleballer is nothing. Knuckleballers seem to hit their prime later and they seem to be able to pitch forever. The past is evidence of that, lots of knuckleball pitchers pitched into their later years.

        Dickey frustrated a lot of good hitters and while he did pitch in a pitcher friendly park his home away numbers werent overly different from what I read.

        Santana more than likely wont be in the deal and is sort of a theory because the Mets will probably move him to another team altogether but I think a move back to the AL could help him get things back.

        The rotation would become:
        Dickey
        Morrow
        Romero
        Jackson/Marcum/McCarthy/etc
        Alvarez

        In no particular order and with guys like Happ, Drabek, Hutchison, Jenkins and others right there waiting, it puts pressure on Alvarez to figure his shit out and so on. Plus those guys could be trade bait and so on.

        So,, sign a free agent and trade for Dickey then poof, thats a pretty awesome rotation if Romero can get right and everyone stays healthy.

        Not to mention a bullpen of:

        Santos
        Rogers
        Janssen
        Delabar
        Wade
        Loup
        Oliver
        Jeffress
        etc etc etc…

        Not so bad…. Dickey would be a major asset. The only person that would lose out would be Mathis being that he is almost guaranteed to be his personal catcher unless D’Arnaud isnt ready, then it would be Bobby Wilson catching butterflies.

        • Yeah, but wakefield had a lot of injury issues as well if i remember correctly as he got older. Older players break down more frequently. The jays dont need more injury risks. The jays could do worse than dickey, but yeah.

  37. Where did you see that rumour? I can’t find it but it would make me very happy if it was true.

    Meanwhile the only new thing I could find is that Ken Macha has followed Art Howe and publicly stated he’s interested in managing the Jays. According to Bob Elliot so…

  38. Some notes from Bob Elliott -

    The Jays haven’t spoken yet to Don Wakamatsu. That doesn’t necessarily mean they won’t, but they did speak with Butterfield and Rivera from the current staff. They’ve also spoken to Wallach twice. Elliott still thinks Wak is probably the favourite though.

    Elliott also notes that the Jays called to inquire about Shaun Marcum.

    http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/09/macha-interested-in-jays-manager-gig

    • If that’s true about Marcum then Blair was wrong. He said there were ‘extenuating circumstances’ around Marcum and the front office didn’t want him back. Of course that might have been true before the start of last season when everyone was all ‘our great young pitchers! We might even have a pitching surplus!!!’

      Things change…

      • +1.

        I hate the fact that Blair won’t discuss what the problems with Marcum were

        If he is afraid to disclose it because he doesn’t want to get sued, then he shouldn’t say anything.

      • Indeed. AA plays things so closely that any rumour is likely to be sketchy at best.

      • It’s entirely possible that the Jays called to get a read for what the market is… that not only helps if they were interested in Marcum, but any other pitcher.

        Comparables, etc.

  39. I wonder if the Mets, who want to build a power game, could be interested in JPA , Lind & a few mil in salary relief for Dickey.

  40. OK, what about Jerry Manuel as the mystery candidate. He played for the Expos & coached under Felipe Alou. Manuel was the coach during the last of the Expos glory years 1992-1994. I think he let his daughter marry Rondell White. He managed the Mets a few years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Manuel

  41. With McCann recovering from surgery and Ross now signed by the Red Sox, do the Braves make a good trading partner for us to maybe move a catcher and snag some of their pitching depth?

    • i would imagine if they felt they were hard up for catching, they wouldve just kept ross

    • That was a nice pick up by the Sox. Pity the snagged him so early I would have loved to trade JPA and Mathis and pick up a guy with a better bat like Ross to split time with d’Arnaud.

  42. So MLB says Dodgers did win the Ryu bidding. It’s just amazing to watch them throw around money like this. It might not exactly be prudent but man it’s sure nice to see an ownership group go about fixing things with such gusto.

    • i might have to be a dodgers fan. they’re basically making all the moves the jays could have made to fill up their shitty concrete monstrosity.

  43. [...] Anthopoulos Speaks!: GM Meetings Wrap | Drunk Jays Fans | Blogs | theScore.comDJF looks at the GM meetings from the Jays perspective. [...]

  44. Dream off season:

    -Trade JPA+ for Dickey. Sign Dickey for 3 years approx 13 per.
    -Sign Sanchez for $6 years 80-90 Million.
    -Acquire a LF/1B/DH. Hunter, LaRoche, Youkilis, Cabrera, and Hafner are options, among others.
    -Offer Jason Bay a minor league contract.

    Dickey
    Morrow
    Sanchez
    Romero
    Happ

    Alvarez/McGowan/Cecil

    Escobar SS
    Rasmus CF
    Bautista RF
    EE 1B
    New Bat DH
    Lawrie 3B
    Izturis/Hech 2B
    d’Arnaud C
    Gose/Sierra LF

    Bench: Lind, Davis, McCoy, Mathis.

    Santos
    Janssen
    Delabar
    Oliver?
    Lincoln
    Rogers
    Loup
    Jeffress

  45. 2012 Colby Rasmus:

    First Half: .282, 17 homers, 53 RBI, .821 OPS
    Second Half: .176, 6 hr, 22 RBI, .515 OPS

    I’m not giving up on this guy yet, but damn he needs to find consistency.

  46. Here’s my dream off season..

    Trade for Dickey, something that looks like JPA, Sierra and a prospect for Dickey and a prospect. Then extend him for 3 years / 45 million with a mutual option for a 4th year at the same salary.

    Next, sign Jackson to a 4 year 60 million dollar deal, I think that gets it done but Id be comfortable with as much as 65ish.

    Sign Youkilis to a 4 year / 45 million dollar deal or something along those lines. He takes enough pitches and he is dangerous enough to really and truthfully protect Bautista in the line up, plus he would be an incredible guy to have around Lawrie because Youkilis plays with the same fire but manages to keep it under control for the most part, theyre similar players in a few ways.

    For LF, I would suggest someone like Ryan Ludwick because i believe he would fit in well, sign him to a fair deal and let him do his thing, hes reliable and durable. Gose will poke his head around and knock at the door fairly quickly.

    That would all sound good to me!

  47. I say Dickey + Daniel Murphy for JPA, Sierra and Escobar.

    Swap of infielders of about even ability with the edge on upside and potential WAR per dollar to the Mets with Escobar, but some real stability and potential flexibility coming back with Murphy. Plus, no more PR disasters with Esco here.

    Sierra is not a bad piece in an NL lineup, I think, and we’ve all talked about the benefits for the Mets of JPA. Having watched the Mets, I see Sierra as better than most of the guys they have been trotting out in the OF.

  48. I’ve always kinda thought the CV situation was a convoluted gambit, that the two sides want to stay together and that’s why they’re airing the grievances so publicly. They’re playing chicken. For all the harsh words, it wouldn’t shock me if we see some kind of compromise in the near future.

    That said, it’s gone far enough that he’s still probably gone.

    • The way I see it AA needs first and foremost two starters. CV is not one of the prime candidates for these spots. Nobody is going to be jumping out of the gate to sign CV, and if they do well so be it and good for him, but if there isn’t much left and AA still needs a starter then they might sign him.

  49. The two sides have different priorities. CV just wants to get paid. The Jays want to upgrade their rotation. CV would be most useful to a wealthy team where he can be a swingman.

    • Yeah I dont see him coming back. Too bad too. As a swingman he’s great. If only they’d kept it to themselves. Now there’s too much face saving in the way. Some team with lots of cash will get him.

  50. I don’t mind the idea of trading for R.A. but I think the focus will be on acquiring younger more controllable players through trade. I would rather see AA take a bit more of a risk on a player like Trevor Bauer. Not sure if he would be someone who would be MLB ready and able to join the low end of the rotation, but so much upside there I feel it would be worth the risk. If he has truly fallen out of favour with the DBacks, he could be had at a discounted price.

    I don’t think that JPA, Sierra and Escobar land Dickey + Murphy. I’d forget about Dickey all together and focus on getting Murphy. Another good option, although I’m not sure if he would be available, would be Martin Pardo of the Braves.

    One way or another, I believe that Escobar will be shipped out soon and Izturis will start the season at short awaiting Hech to take over sliding Izturis to the bench and someone else will be brought in to play second base.

    • The beauty of landing any of the shorter term free agents or guys that come via trade and can be extended by a year or two is that’s all you need.

      What we are lacking is a bridge to a couple of the Lansing guys + Osuna not to mention time for guys like Alvarez and Hutchison to recover and get some added experience. Adding two good starters to cover the next two years to go along with Morrow and Romero would be such a huge benefit to this team and not just for this coming season.

      The deals don’t necessarily have to be 5 or 6 years. Personally I would love seeing a trade for Dickey, taking a flyer on Haren and signing one more reliable back end guy in case Haren can’t go to start the season. Ideally all three of those guys could be had for reasonable rates for 2012 leaving plenty of room for a left fielder.

      That leaves Happ, Alvarez and Jenkins for depth. The pen is bursting right now especially if Oliver comes back.

      I don’t see Cecil making the team and clearing waivers if Oliver comes back. I would not be surprised that if the hunt for two starters is successful Cecil gets traded in part of a package of some kind before the season starts. Of course Happ could be in the same trade bait boat. Considering he`s set to make close to $4 million in 2013 that might push him out the door before Cecil in a trade if money gets tight. I guess much depends on Oliver for all the lefties involved. Hell even Loup could get sent back down if they are determined to hang onto Cecil for depth.

      • I see Jenkins as a more likely candidate for a throw in than Happ or Cecil. A combination of the cheap years of control and him having proven he’s not totally in over his head, even if they were mostly Sept innings he pitched. He’s unproven, but he hasn’t proven he can’t hack it like Cecil has.

      • I’m noticing on MLBTR that Boston is looking to deal a catcher now that they’ve landed Ross. The post says that Boston could possibly be interested in a trade of Saltalamacchia for Niese. If the Jays are interested in a trade for Dickey, now would be a good time before the Mets get the catcher they want.

        http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/red-sox-notes-saltalamacchia-ross-mets-napoli.html

        • Yeah I just saw that and it worried me too. But I wonder if the Sux have enough secondary talent to swing the deal.

      • NM good point about the experience on the young pitchers. The TJ surgeries have not just set the Jays back but set back Drabek and Hutchison on their development. Drabek is bad enough in that he still wasnt getting his mechanics when he went down with his second TJ surgery. Now he could possibly get some innings in after the Break next summer but he’s going to have to start building innings in 2014 and probably wont get more than -what?- 150 IPs then? Hutchison probably wont even start til 2014 and at that there’ll be a strict innings limit. Alvarez by all accounts needs to learn a new pitch and work on it in AAA. And there’s no one (save for a McGowan miracle) between them and the kids in Lansing. This is why it’s so important to get 2 SPs this winter

      • Yes, I agree with you that adding a starter or two on short term deals could be beneficial. But the likely hood of Sanchez, Syndergaard, Nicolino and Osuna all becoming impact players at the big league level is slim to none. Each one of them has their issues; Sanchez lacks command, Syndergaard could wind up a late inning reliever due to lack of an out pitch, Nicolino does not have the high ceiling that the other two have, and I don’t know much about Osuna because he is new to the system and very young. Also some of these guys will be traded down the road for major league talent.

        I would much rather AA target a high upside, high risk, young-controllable pitcher that can start the season with the club at the back end of the rotation and then add one expensive proven veteran front end type pitcher than see him sign/trade for two or three veteran pitchers that may or may not break down.

        I feel like the young pitchers in this system are receiving a lot of hype when none of them are even close to stepping in.

        • Good point. Is not like we havent seen it before.

        • Granted there’s a strong chance that all of them won’t reach their ceilings but I think you’re being overly negative on their futures. The nice thing about all four of them is that they have plus stuff. Graduating one of them to a #2 and one #3 wouldn’t be too shabby. Considering some of the comments from the minor league reviewers regarding Syndergaard he looks to be a high leverage back of the pen arm at worst.

          Let’s remember how young they all are too. Again the beauty about paying for a free agent arm or two is that it buys you all the time you need to develop these guys or move them. I think trading any of them now considering the upside is premature especially when you have the cash.

          • Not negative, just realistic. I realise that they all have great upside, but to assume any of them is just going to step in and be a consistent reliable #2/3 type pitcher in any less than 3 years is just ridiculous. If they are going to reach their potential it is going to take them a while to do so. I would like to see more young controlable guys brought in with the same type of upside and high ceiling that are closer to being MLB ready. That’s just my opinion though…

  51. Dear AA

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LAND DICKEY

    he would be fucking fun to watch on the Jays, and could be a cy young contender if everything works out

  52. I have very mixed feelings about the Isturis. Having him in a starter role this year and then sliding into a backup role by the end of the contract is a nice buy low maneuver. However, it also feels like Alex gave up on the All-Star at every position goal by showing they have no way to fill the second base hole internally (Hech isn’t the long term future at 2nd I have to assume.).

    Glad to see another buy low option, just wish we would have seen this last off season and now this one with the starting pitchers. SIGN ALL OF THEM NOW ;)

  53. I am fine with Izturis being a starter, with Hech as an extra option, as long as he fills the other spots well. It is ridiculous to expect 9 all stars in the batting order. But I am more concerned if we end up having below average hitters at LF or DH.

    Also more thoughts on Dickey: If the Jays are serious about trying to get the playoffs, and then win in the playoffs, then they will need a guy that can give them a good chance to win two games in a seven game series. Dickey has been that kind of guy and more the last 3 years. I don’t think hitters would like coming to Toronto to face Dickey on one day and then Morrow on the next, pitchers that are tough to hit in so, so much different ways.

    • I think Lind will be fine if he`s used in a strict platoon. Besides with every penny needed to secure starting pitching and a left fielder I don’t think the team can just eat Lind’s $5 million. To me the key will be getting a left fielder that dominates left handers.

    • That is such a great point! Having a knuckleballer in the mix would make a big difference to this rotation.

      • Most knuckleballers have a residual effect on a batting lineup too. The day after he pitches, usually a few batters in a given lineup will have timing problems trying to hit a good fastball again…or is that what you were saying Isabella?

        • @Carl Sagan

          Yes that is what I thought. I know that over the years premium hitters were scratched when a knuckleballer was pitching for that reason. If I recall correctly, Cito Gaston held Olerud back a couple of times in that circumstance and I think recently one or two of our hitters were held back from Wakefield.

  54. PS that was @ jimmynmu.

  55. Can any of the GM’s do something significant? The off-season is more boring than being an Astro’s fan.

    Note: I know MLB free agency is slow until the Winter Meetings. Doesn’t retract the fact that the off-season is boring so far.

  56. I believe Escobar is still on his way out of Toronto and that 2B has not been resolved yet. When Escobar goes, Izturis becomes the starting shortstop until Hech hopefully pushes him to the bench and someone else is being targeted to be brought in as the starting 2B. My list of potential 2B trade targets include Kippnis, Beckham, Asdrubal Cabrera, Martin Prado, Daniel Murphy and maybe Chase Utley… I’d like to see someone like Prado or Murphy due to their versatility.

  57. jmitchell13: I agree wholeheartedly. I also expect a trade mid to late next week. There were a few options coming out of California, and I think the Jay’s brass have been thinking those over. Just a guess but I think with so many holes to fill relatively speaking this offseason, AA will want to strike early to maximize the menu.

  58. Just because i need to be distracted from this essay…. Here is what my perfect offseason would look like ( and yes i realize how unlikely it is… but it is possible!)

    Jays trade JPA plus a couple of meh prospects for Dickey (and extend him for 3 years ideally… not too worried about aging for a knuckleballer… )

    Jays sign Sanchez for the 90 mill he’s asking over 6 years.

    Jays trade Escobar, one of the lansing three and Gose (since he needs at least another year or so of seasoning in the minors it doesn’t matter that Gose isn’t really needed this year for the Diamondbacks), plus a meh prospect or two for Justin Upton.

    Hech starts at short. In the end it’d look pretty top heavy for the lineup, but overall i’d say could compete with all but maybe a couple teams in baseball.

    Rotation:
    Dickey
    Morrow
    Sanchez
    Romero
    Alvarez

    Lineup:

    Lawrie
    Upton
    Bautista
    Encarnacion
    Rasmus
    Izturis
    Darnaud (hopefully he earns being moved up in the order later in the year)
    Hech
    DH (Likely whoever we have hitting DH next year will be batting higher than 9th, but no idea who it will be at this point. Praying not Lind unless he’s platooned)

    plus an above average bullpen on paper.

    WHY NOT!

    • Personally I would be shocked to see Escobar go anywhere this winter unless it was some kind of mega trade. To me there’s just too much potential and current value there just like Rasmus. From the way AA speaks about both of them, I really think he would have to be bowled over. Getting solid position players in key defensive positions is like finding gold for most teams these days. You’ve got a guy in Escobar that put up a 4.4 WAR as recently as 2011 and seems to be one of these players that has a good year followed up by a bad one. I bet with everything that went on last year there’s going to be increased motivation on his part to do well. Obviously I have no proof of that but that’s my feeling.

      Plus Escobar, Gose and a Lansing 3 is WAY too much for Upton.

      • Gose/Rasmus/Marsinick + one of Lansing three + middling prospect would be ok for me for upton

      • Sorry that’s all just my opinion of course, but I do believe if they get two good starters and a decent left fielder this team is a favourite to win the division never mind just make the playoffs. Yes I know I am going way out on a limb here with those caveats.

        I wouldn’t be surprised to see improvements from Escobar, Lawrie, Rasmus and Lind at the plate in 2013.

        If you ended up with 4 decent starters going 6-7 innings every night combined with a healthy pen with the arms we have in it….

        • I definitely think if the Jays were to get 2 good starters and a good LF they’d be the division favourites. Unless, of course, TBay or the Yanks made significant improvements as well.

          To me, it is as simple (and relatively cheap) as something like Dickey, Haren or Dempster & Cabrera, though I’d add Gomes to platoon with Lind.

          And this could be done for around $100 million in 2013.

          The litany of injuries and pissy fanbase shouldn’t cloud the fact that there are a lot of good things in place.

        • Yes, Jonny Gomes.

          My fantasy offseason would never be centred around Yan, haha.

  59. Apparently there are reports of the Jays being the front runner for Guthrie. I dont hate this idea. Something like 3 years and 28 million. He is durable and he’s a sinker ball guy which would play well with the infield the Jays have. Good for the back of the rotation.

    I wouldnt hate it anyways.

    • might as well just get laffey back… fuck guthrie

    • Hitters in the AL East also do not hate this move.

      • Exactly however this could give AA flexibility to trade Happ/Alvarez for a bat. Like a josh willingham perhaps

    • Guthrie on a minor league deal, sure.

      For $28 million, you’ve got to be fucking kidding me. We (and every other team) could have had him for pretty much nothing last year and I don’t see what he’s done to change that.

      For that money we could easily resign Villanueva who’s likely to be much better, even if he only starts for 2/3 of the season.

      Not that it matters because the Jays aren’t spending $28 million on anybody this or any offseason (I think the new Izturis record will stand for a few years), but you’re nuts if you think Guthrie can get anything like that.

      • Well he got out of Coors field and then had a very respectable rest of the year in KC. He is easily going to land a major league contract. Go look at his numbers.

      • I agree with you,, it was only a rumor.

        Somehow people are ok with spending 90 million on a 6 year deal for Sanchez. That guy isnt even worth 10 million per season.

      • $28 Million over 3 years isn’t even a lot of money for the cheap old blue jays.

  60. I wish people would stop with the trade Happ comments. Happ is exactly what we need near the back end of our rotation there was a reason AA gave up the prospects he did to get him.

    • He was an emergency solution to a team that had serious depth issues. With all reports coming out after the Farrell situation you can see the kind of pressure AA was under internally to get the team help while there was still a chance. He’s not a completely horrible number 5 guy on a good team but why settle for that if you don’t have to. I’m not really one to say trade him. I just don’t want him starting if there’s other options available. Also the price of some of those prospects was for Lyon as well.

      To put Happ’s performance into some context, he put up an ERA+ of 71 in 2011 and 85 in 2012 in his last two full seasons. Compare that to Aaron Laffey who put up an ERA+ of 95 in 2011 and 94 in 2012 or Brett Cecil who had an ERA+ of 90 in 2011 and 75 in 2012. For those that don’t know an ERA+ below 100 is not good. Happ is perfectly fine as depth either as a swing man out of the pen or the first guy you call on from AAA when a better starter can’t go.

      To be completely fair Happ’s FIP and xFIP for 2012 were career bests so maybe it’s pointing to a possible breakout. It’s certainly going to be interesting to see how things play out for him. One thing that’s not on his side is that he’s not exactly cheap at a potential $3.8 million.

      • you forget he had an injury in there and that he has huge potential I.m more than happy with him as a 4 or 5 he can miss bats

        • The injury happened in his last start and he didn’t pitch the rest of the season. His numbers can’t be blamed on the injury. As for the rest, that’s cool to each their own. Like I said he could be primed for a breakout. Who knows?

  61. I’ve been watching the Jays since I was 5. I’ve been following their games religiously since Dave Berg and Frank Menechino patrolled the outfield and infield. I saw Terri Adams give up a grand slam to the Twins when he was closing for the Jays. Last week I decided to stop rooting for my home team. I straight switched to the Angels where because I often work out of the area. I feel better. Much better. And to those who will call me a sell out or band-wagon-er…you have no idea until you try.

    I see Anthopolous at an Italian restaurant in the city all the time. The guy eats out at one of the most expensive (and delicious) Italian restaurants. I always dream of walking to his table and asking him to stop eating at such a fine restaurant but instead to only by dinners with a McDonald’s budget and see how much he enjoys his dinners…that way he can feel the fans frustrations.

    Last week baseball was a frustrating sport because money has ruined the game. This week I’m excited about the game again and not worried about my teams inability to compete fairly with other teams. Go ANGELS!

    • I like the McDonald’s analogy but to be fair to AA if his mom is only giving him $8 bucks for dinner every night, is it his fault that he can only afford a full meal there and not at some fancy Italian place? You should be directing your ire to his bosses.

      As for jumping teams, if it helps you sleep better at night then that’s all that matters right? It seems to have worked wonders for Parkes. I mean you can even emulate him further and hedge your bets by starting to support a couple of extra teams at the end of May like he did with Washington and the Rangers when things were going good for them and not so good for the Giants.

      • Yes it’s obviously not on Anthopoulos entirely. Nonetheless he’s getting paid to be the whipping boy just as much as he is to put a winning team together.

        Parkes has always been the one to look for the easiest way out for something. His blog is predicated on this notion…do work by compiling links from the real people who are doing work by interviewing managers, players, execs, and then posting those links. It’s a 3 tiered system where Parkes is the middle man. Guys like Rosenthal do the heavy lifting and real work (and get paid for it), middle man like Parkes and Stoeten do the lazy work that the rest of us don’t have time or don’t want to do which is simply scouring the cyber earth for the breadcrumbs left behind by Rosenthal et all. The problem comes when guys like Parkes and company start believing themselves to be doing real work. Part of that is the fact that a company like the score will pay based on hits on page and not quality content.

        Changing teams will help me sleep better at night. Honestly, if my team is trying to win then I can go to sleep after the game and not listen to boatloads of people call in and bitch on the post game shows.

        I don’t know about you but watching a game and then a complete season can feel great but completely unfulfilling when you know your team could have won if they weren’t as interested in the dollars and cents of the operation. How is that ANY different than a fellow who is only interested in getting himself off? Hear me out for a second. Sure, the fella (Rogers) will feel great if they get off but it sucks for the fans (the gal who doesn’t get off) because they’re left alone cold in the bedsheets without any satisfaction. Sure the 10 minutes leading up to Roger’s climax were ok even great for us fans but ultimately unfulfilling. Think about that.

        • Oh don’t get me wrong I know how frustrating it is to love a team that’s struggled for so long. I’m in my early 40′s and have listened to or watched the majority of the games since I was 7. The Jays have been something my dad and I shared all these years, and as frustrating as it has been at times I don’t regret it for a second.

          As for Parkes, I think what he and Stoeten do regarding the links is awesome and I would hardly call the effort they put into running such a good site as lazy. It certainly saves a ton of time trying to find them all yourself and there’s been some I would never have found and I like to think I’m more aware of what’s going on in baseball because of those links.

          That said, they do far more than just cobble links together. While I certainly don’t agree with Parkes all the time he is a good writer imo. As for this site, I think you can judge for yourself how much I love it by all the time I spend commenting on it.

  62. John Ive been an Islanders fan since 1972 and Jays fan since 1977 nothing would make me make a posting like you just did. As an Islander fan I’m still recovering from the Milbury years and as a Jays fan from the Godfrey years.
    Both teams have young general managers staying true to a plan and for first time in years I see light at end of tunnel and a chance to win.
    To throw money away for sake of spending is stupid see Yashin , Rios and Wells.
    Building a winner takes time like it did for Islanders and Jays in the past

    • Answer me then, why not sell Bautista, Encarnacion, Escobar and the bullpen pieces that are older NOW and bring back prospects so we can have a strong team when they all reach the show? What’s the benefit to keeping a half amazing team and half shitty team when you know that won’t get you to the promised land? If you ask me it seems eerily similar to the Godfrey years where we had an amazing 1B, OF and SP but we never surrounded them with enough talent and when it was all said and done Carlos Delgado, Vernon Wells and Roy Halladay were all too happy to either be shipped off or granted permission to leave. If you want to build a winner then build a winner. If you want to take your wife out to the nice restaurant then dave up enough money so you can take her and order anything you like. DONT bring her to the restaurant and tell her there’s a 25 dollar limit on her plate. Then she won’t have a chance to try the red wine or dessert.

    • And do you watch all the Jays games? Maybe if baseball wasn’t a 3 hour event every day for half the year I could understand sticking with your team for decades and decades and decades like you seem to have done with the Islanders. Now that I’m married and have kids I don’t want to spend 3 hours a day watching a team that’ doesn’t have winning as it’s bottom line. Life’s too short for that when there’s so many other teams who still know what baseball’s about. There’s no pride in rooting for a Jays team for me. Maybe if the players were all Canadian, but they aren’t.

  63. Everyone has a choice but every team goes through the down years I think as fans we have to decide if the people running our team are doing enough? It looks like you feel they are not and there is nothing wrong with that and making choice to decide to cheer for another team. I personally feel Alex has stayed the course that he said he was going to follow and some fans want to rush that process. I want to win as much as next guy and my favorite saying is “second place means your just ahead of the rest of the losers” And with that in mind as long as I feel he is working for a 1st place finish I’ll support him and my team.
    I fuckin Hated the milbury years!!!!

    • My wishes for offseason
      1.Trade Arencibia for a starter or 2nd baseman (Dickey) (Kinsler)
      2.Sign a place holder for left field on a 2 year deal Victorino? would be perfect
      3.Sign a starter that can throw 200 inning and minus 4 ERA (Marcum?)

      If possible a three way trade with Texas and Arizona Kinsler to the Jays , Escobar, Oliver and a prospect leaving the jays. Escobar and prospect go to Arizona with another piece from Texas and Oliver and Upton to Texas

      • I know its a dream but not even in your dreams would Victorino sign a 2 year deal. Think Ryan Ludwick instead and youll be a little closer.

        • stop your wneing jays have not won in 20 years boo ho. the jays 19th in drought of a world series. try being a cubs fan og a 104 years. try being the guy whp caught that ball that all cubs fans have issued death threats. beinga sports fan required you to root for some stinkers. easy to forget that in the early steinbrenner years the team was absolute filth.

    • Sam Wyche said it best “You don’t live in Cleveland, you live in Cincinnati”.
      Fuck ‘down years’, we’re counting decades now.
      This isn’t Pittsburgh or Kansas City, this is Toronto. Home of the last century’s best lineup and strongest organization, can we get a fucking winning team already?

  64. This is when I start to judge AA as a GM. He had to clean up the mess that JP left behind. I’m not talking the players with the whopping contracts but the minor league system that JP allowed to rot away, not signing high end young international players and putting the emphasis on the draft and scouting system. Now that’s he’s righted the ship in that regards I now want to see what he will do with building a contending team not just for a year but for many years. Making the right trades, signing the right free agents. Everyone right away says we should sign this player or that one, remember how these free agents worked out Barry Zito (before this year), Jason Bay, John Lackey, is Jayson Werth, Adam Dunn, Alex Rodriquez the money they signed for. We have to realize that yes we can go out and sign a big contract with a player but we don’t have the luxury of the Yankees, Red Sox or the Dodgers and make a mistake by signing the wrong player or end up with a injured player. We can’t cover up a mistake like that once it happens. Everybody likes to talk about the Rays but they were awful for years so there draft picks would eventually pan out and be a great team for 4 or 5 years while these players are under there control but once that’s goes away they will be back at the bottom. Remember they got lucky with the closer position the last 2 years, Kyle Farnsworth and Fernando Rodney while the Jays got unlucky with Francisco Cordero, Jon Rauch and Frank Francisco.

    Just my 2 cents worth

    • @ Bruce
      Thanks for a breath of fresh air.
      You are correct, of course,IMHO.

    • You can compare those contracts to similar ones that have worked: Adrian Beltre, CC. Sabathia, Miguel Cabrera, Justine Verlander, Roy Halladay, Felix Hernandez, Torri Hunter…there’s just as many contracts that work out as there are that ones that dont. You’re also forgetting that most of these contracts pay for themselves if you get to the playoffs. Detroits huge contract to Prince Fielder has already paid for itself in playoff home games profits. You also conveniently leave out the fact that many of the contracts that do not work out are not for elite level talent. Sure, criticize contracts given to players like Zito, Werth, Howard, Mauer, Wells, Bay, et all…these are contracts that were worth it in the early going but have become cumbersome contracts now…but if you’re going to bring those type of deals up then you sure as hell better be opining for the Jays to sign ELITE talent like Greinke or trade for a player like Upton. Otherwise if you’re saying we can’t afford bad contracts or large contracts for elite players ANd you’re saying we can’t afford to be a shitty team and collect draft picks like the Rays then….what exactly are you saying we do to compete? Draft players and develop them? Guess what…all other teams are doing the same thing.

      • @ John

        According to McCowan ( I haven’t looked at the data) If you look at all the players with 100 million or more contracts,there may be a little more than a handfull that provide value based upon performance.

      • Not sure those playoff home games bring in that much money, but they definitely bring in some. Do you have numbers on this?

        • There was a guest on PTS about a week ago who said the Tigers were raking in 6 or 7 million during the playoffs. I believe it was for each game or maybe each homestand/round. If I remember correctly it was J.P. Morosi who was on to talk non-Jays baseball. They talked about his picks for the World Series winner out of San Fran and Detroit.

          • Draft and develop is new-age speak for hope and pray.
            I’d rather spend $20 million now to get a proven warhorse like Prince than spend $3 million and 3 years to develop a stable of donkeys and Shetland ponies.
            Have you stat-tards ever heard of opportunity cost?

    • Two points:
      1) About the closer thing, I think it is unfair to just attribute that to luck. Francisco got hurt and that was unlucky, but after that he actually performed quite well. Cordero was just a bad signing and never should have been slotted into situations that matter. People were saying that right when he signed (particularly here on DJF)

      2) Much of the Rays talent didn’t come from their high first round draft picks (obviously Price is an exception). I am sure they helped, but much of their success came from great signings and great post-1st round picks. A lot of people like to just attribute the rays success to being bad for so long, but that does a disservice to the work of their front office.

      • Rays got lucky and had the luxury of not having a fan base that gave a shit while they took over a decade to build a winning team.
        If that’s Roger’s plan then they can send me an hologram messenger or a neural-text in 2020 to let me know it’s time to buy tickets again.

        • exactly mr Dave:
          Some of the bozos on here that are so afraid of spending ,money that they have no concept of developement time and lost $$$ among other things, not to mention the loss of momo( ratings primarily which drive adverts) and ancillary sales on things like jerseys. While you have to do your due diligence, you have to spend money to make money. Besides the way the US$ ( andmaybe CDN too) is going, paying a guy15m in 6 years may be like giving him 100k today

    • Dont discount their coaching staff. Jim Hickey is a great pitching coach. And the Rays NEVER bring up a prospect (pitcher at least) before he’s ready. Of course they’ve got an amazing rotation so they can afford to do that.

  65. Haven’t seen it here,yet.
    http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2012/11/09/turn-and-face-the-stranger/#comments

    I wish Parkes the best, in his new endeavors and for the future.

  66. It’s quiet. Too quiet…

  67. I have for the past two years bandied about the idea of abandoning the Jays as well. My super-fandom began around 1997 when I attended the Jays vs Expos on Canada Day. Since then, there have only been a few games in about 15 years that I can say I was really proud to be actively following the team. The quasi wildcard contention in 1998, the 18-8 May they had in ’03, the Vernon walk off vs the Yanks in ’06. The big offseason in ’05 when it looked like the Jays were going to contend. The moments are far fetched, and few and far between.

    I guess what keeps me coming back is the fact that A.A. seems like their best shot. If he fails, I doubt if there’s anyone who can fix the baseball team here.

    • @ John, Some days it seems Baseball is a victim of its own so-called “free market” mentality. It is as though it allows only the owners with big ego’s and large wallets to contend for the grand prize on a consistent basis. What will happen to teams like KC, Tampa, Houston, Seattle, Milwalkee, Minnesota in the future? They can’t consistently contend with young taleent, journeman, fringe players and an occasional FA. This goes well beyond an AA problem. Baseball’s business model is out of step with other major sports in the USA. The disparity between rich and poor teams continues to grow, so switching teams maybe the way to go. Yes America can brand me a communist, but that won’t change its inevitable decline.

      • I am waiting to see what effect the CBA will have on teams success 3 or 4 years out from now. I think that with the cap on draft money, talent isn’t going to slip further down the draft due to signing concerns to teams like Boston and New York anymore. Without that ability to to sign those higher ceiling guys, their ability to make an impact trade at the deadline is going to cause them problems. It might even take longer than what I envision, but unless they are exceptionally skillful at drafting 25th -30th on a regular basis their systems will suffer.

        Of course the flip side to that is teams in the position of the Jays a couple of years ago won’t be able to accelerate their rebuilds by stocking up on draft picks and spending big on the draft either. If you’re going to make a quick turnaround imo you’re going to have to spend in the free agent market to compensate. I’m also curious to see what the influx of new TV money does to the smaller market teams. Will some of the owners continue to spend like misers or will they be more aggressive?

        The disparity between the median payroll and the top spending team is about 2.5 times larger than what it was in 93 when the Jays won their last WS title. Will that gap start to close? Prior to the Dodgers going insane it looked like it might, but when they’re finished spending this year it might be even bigger.

    • Oh was that the Jeff Juden game? Good times…

    • Petey.

      I was at that game. Juden beat CLEMENS. Expos won 2-1. 50,000 fans.

      I was cheering for the expos then.

      As an Expos fan , I was use to a team being put together with kids, journeyman like jeff Juden,reclamation projects etc. Montrel was a small market team , o there were no expectations.

      It`s baffling that Jays fans accept this mediocrity when the team is owned by a conglomerate.

      If the Expos were owned by a big beer company or similar TV conglomerate like Videotron, which is trying to get the Nordiques back to quebec city, there would be no tolerance for a consistently weak team.

  68. More fuel to the Dickey fire today. Lots of people talking about a Dickey / JPA swap with add ons. I am liking this. The knuckleball does crazy things in a dome!

  69. Wow, thanks for all the Jays related updates this weekend. In case you can’t tell, I’m being sarcastic. I had to go to MLBTR and the fucking Sun Newspaper.

    • Stoeten is a Monday-Friday kind of guy. Jays fans support the site 7 days a week though!

      • Stoeten will be working overtime during the winter meetings. Parkes will have a reduced role at the score with his new oppurtunities.

  70. “In case you can’t tell, I’m being sarcastic.”

    +1

  71. For all those that want to “abandon” their favourite team please just don’t come back if they start playing well. I don’t think I could ever do it myself because I couldn’t just hit a switch and all of a sudden start liking another team.

    There is also a way in which it is satisfying cheering for an underdog. Yankee fans can expect the playoffs every year but I’ve never seen a Blue Jays playoff game in my life since I was too young to remember 1993. When the Jays make it to the post season again (it WILL happen, unless the Jays are moved one day) it will be a memorable moment of my life. Sort of like a “I can’t believe this is happening” feeling.

    The Yankees can enjoy their yearly playoff visits and world series titles every 5-10 years, but if the Jays ever win the world series in my life time it will feel more glorious and satisfying than anything a yankee fan could ever experience baseball wise.

    • This is a loser’s mentality. It’s the equivalent to saying “I wouldn’t change jobs to make twice as much money because eventually my boss will give me a raise and when he does it will make it so much sweeter.” Give your head a shake. There’s certainly reasons not to switch teams but never tasting or being a part of a winning team is not a good one.

      About the only thing in my opinion that can keep people not to switch is emotional ties to a team. Great memories and childhood history with the team/father-son time etc. Still, it’s asking a lot from fans to continue putting up with a losing team year in and year out. The Jays have an amazing opportunity to capitalize on the NHL lockout for new fans. Instead they’re sitting back and slowly deciding a manager, then who knows if they’ll do anything to improve the team relative to their competitors. Rogers is at the forefront of leading change in wireless technology and home TV. How come I can watch TV on all 3 TVs in my home, on a tablet, from a remote location on the internet..all of these wonderful abilities yet I can’t watch them put together half decent team? Carrying Adam Lind/Juan Rivera/Aaron Laffey is the equivalent to Rogers having a cell phone signal that keeps dropping. Sheesh!

      • “Give your head a shake. There’s certainly reasons not to switch teams but never tasting or being a part of a winning team is not a good one.”

        What on earth made you think that this was what I was trying to say?!?!?!? I just pointed out a way that supporting an underdog team can be satisfying not that people should support a team because they suck. This is a big difference. You are the one that needs to give their head a shake sir–(ps I can’t stand that cliched phrase).

        • @ Jimmy, “What on earth…” You are kidding right? If you arn’t re-read your post. My God man, don’t shake your head, it will fall off cause it isn’t on very tight.

          • @birddawg

            I re-read the post several times before that comment. I never in anyway what so ever said that people should support a team because the team sucks. I just gave a reason why supporting a team that has less hope for success than others can end up being worthwhile.

            Instead of your little drive by comment, please elaborate and actually point out a way in which I am full of shit if this is the case.

        • As for this bit: “This is a loser’s mentality. It’s the equivalent to saying “I wouldn’t change jobs to make twice as much money because eventually my boss will give me a raise and when he does it will make it so much sweeter.”

          The mentality I actually have (to continue your analogy) is that my current job doesn’t pay the most and at times is frustrating, but it is the job I have had for my whole life and I have enjoyed it despite its flaws. The boss can be cheap, the office is a little dreary, and some of the coworkers are sometimes dumb and only consider this their part time job–lots of them hardly even show up for work. Some of said co workers ditch the job when things get a little rough but I am not one of those guys. Why? Because I would be lying to myself if I found happiness somewhere else, success at the other job would feel empty. I’m not going to start working for the competitor because it looks like they are on the rise, and fool myself into believing that I was somehow a part of this victory even though a month ago I was working for the other company.

          Now is that a loser’s mentality?

          • If making less money and being in a less productive environment and being behind the competitors in competition and believing that you cant or won’t be happier at another position or company (without even trying it) is what you consider to be a winner, then yes, by that definition (which is the crux of your post) it is not a loser’s mentality.

      • @john:
        You comment “instead they’re sitting back and slowly deciding a manager, then who knows if they’ll do anything to improve the team relative to their competitors.”

        I feel your pain, as do others, but many of us are not willing to cry wolf so early in this off season process. This is baseball, not hockey; next to nothing has happened yet. Your frustration has you proactively deciding that ipso facto nothing will. My suggestion is to pull in your horns (in the short term) and give AA some rope before you hang him. I’m still confident that he will pleasantly surprise both of us. Fingers crossed as always. Cheers.

        • Spud, glad to see you keepig the peace. Hey, if John does hang AA make sure its good and high…you know in a way that Clint Eastwood would be proud of.

        • If the team improves through trade or free agency I’ll bite my tongue. None of us know what’s happening behind the scenes. I love how the trades and free agent signings seem non existant when Shi, Jeff, Griff et all are enjoying their weekends. Makes me think all the stuff we hear during the week is simply food for thought.

          Ill simmer down if one of two things happens. One, the team gets better by addressing major issues (first base, second base, SP. Or two, the team does something to create a better product for the consumer and fan. That can be a Justin Upton trade, that can be real grass in the Rogers centre…it can’t be a signing or trade that improves the team marginally.

        • Perhaps he just wants to get the pain over with.

  72. I actually have dreams where the Jays are in the playoffs. And I’ll be like, “awesome! It’s finally happening! they’re in the playoffs again and it’s not a dream.”

    And then I wake up. And it’s like fuckkkk. I have these every once in a while.

  73. The day the jays make the playoffs will be the best day of my young life

    • You won’t be young by the time it happens East

      • Come on, ‘dawg–you and I had our kick at the cat. Give the man some hope!

        • Oh, alright, yes AA will make some stealth trades that will rocket the Jays to the division title and the WS next year. John will forever regret his decision to root for the Angles, Jimmynmu will prove to be prophetic, and bobsyouruncle will stay at his old job forever and his stingy boss will double his salary. Spud, you will have a fling with karen in Paris, and Stoeten will think I.m a baseballl genius and quote me regularily. There – goodnite

      • @ birddawg

        I once said to someone, of all sports franchises the worst to be right now is probably the Orioles. They will never make the playoffs when there are four better teams than them in the division. Well I was wrong and I was wrong fast.

        • You and jimmy are one and the same? The argument is as convuluted as the author(s) I.m addressing. I deserve this somehow I’m sure. I can’t take this anymore – goodnite

  74. If I can’t have a championship and go to the WS every year, I’m gonna follow another team.
    Yeah,okay whatever.
    Probably the same guy who cheered when JPR was hired.Moneyball yeah moneyball.We got the moneyball and you don’t nananana
    Ya make it sound like the jays have been losing 100 games for ten years straight.
    So you don’t enjoy the game cause the Jays might lose?
    Fuck me gently.
    I only cheer for teams that wins all the time.
    Try the Bosox.
    Maybe you should learn at bit about the game, you might actually enjoy it if you knew something.

    • You need a hug or somethin’ ?

      • @ Tom
        Just readin the string.
        People don’t have a sense of what’s happening.
        They can’t see the logical progression or can they see the history of how the Jays arrived to this point..
        So now it’s time to jump ship?
        Fuck’em.

        • give the finger to the rock and roll singer as he dances upon your pay cheque.

        • I know ‘a bit’ about the game. I know it’s not about single wins it’s about the championship, it’s about the playoffs, it’s about at least having a shot at that end goal, and clearly you don’t understand that baseball seasons have an end-goal. I know what the players know. You imply that I might enjoy the game if I learn to understand that it’s not about winning all the time. Well nobody is asking to win all the time. Fans, true fans, are asking for a chance, a real shot at winning because that’s what fans do. Just a chance so there’s a question of whether or not the team will make it to the playoffs, the championships…anywhere other than meaningless games in September. What’s the difference between 100 loss seasons and 80 loss seasons? They both lead to meaningless games in September and for an organization to repeat that over and over again like the Jays…that’s not what baseball is about. Sure if you want to tune in for 20 minutes here or there to watch some baseball then who cares if the team isn’t winning 90+ games. Well I got news for you Radar, everybody who matters (i.e. not you) cares. The players care and that’s why many won’t come here if they can get similar money elsewhere. They want to play for a winner. With your implication of what baseball is really about, you could go watch minor league tea ball or any type of baseball for fodder, but keep your condescending narrative elsewhere. These boards are for the Toronto Blue Jays, the major league team that people pay hard earned cash to go see win, not swing the bats with a smile on their face you gentle ____.

        • @ Radar you do recall how long its been in between WS’s right? Who said every year. Switching allegence’s after 20 years in the abiss is acceptable. Maybe Rogers needs to see the fan base erode before it spends, or sells the club. Either way I couldn’t blame anyone for jumping ship after the Jays record over the past 20 years or so.

    • Rogers still has customers (read: “fans”) because they’re able to exploit affective circuits you can trace back to the 92-93 times (or the Barfield/Bell/Moesby + Stieb teams) and those that maybe actually like baseball as a game.

      If you like baseball as a game, then there’s really no point in worrying about what happens in the offseason, because you know that even really shitty teams usually manage to win about 1 in 3 games.

      i think the reason people get invested in teams during the offseason is because they’re hoping for success in the coming year. it’s fine if a team wants to exploit a niche where they profit from mediocrity and nostalgia…but it isn’t really a rational choice to actively support that as if it is a winning business model. it’s a business model to be sure, but not one that aims at winning, but rather one that sees championships as the icing on the cake, rather than the california raisins to be. (mixed metaphor FTW!)

      • So you think that Rogers would rather appeal to the fans sense of nostalgia over fielding a winning team?
        Even being a cynic, which model do you think makes Rogers more money?
        Which model feeds content to all of Rogers properties for further profit?
        Give your head a shake,rattle your brains and make some sense.

        • exhibit 1: “new” logo

          as for not winning, there’s a growing track record to go on. i mean, faith is nice; but in practice it’s also easily exploited for profit.

          Radar #STANdground

          • also i didn’t say that they want nostalgia OVER winning. obviously they want to win since it would mean more profit. my point is that they occupy a niche where even if they spend like the yankees, they won’t profit like the yankees EVEN IF they win. so, there are diminishing returns on their spending. they’re operating in a “sweet spot” or what aa called “payroll parameters”. again, nothing wrong with that. but it isn’t a winning philosophy #profitoverwant

          • They won’t profit like the Yankees if they win?

            Maybe not, but it’ll be pretty damn close.

            You’re naivity is blinding you.

          • BTW
            Shove that childish # hashtag shit up your ass.
            This is big boy territory,we actually express our ideas with words.
            The kiddie blog is over there somewhere.

          • the yankees’ fanbase is larger than the jays. period.

            if you think the two are comparable, you’re the one that’s dreaming.

      • A wise man.

  75. The reason why the jays never win is not because they don’t spend money, it’s because they never hit on any of their draft picks. At some point you need to get surplus value from your picks so that the money you spend on free agents puts you over the top.

    This is how tampa and oakland keep winning. You also need to make shrewd trades to get surplus value, trading players that are expensive for cheap ones.

    Baltimore won this year becuase they got lots of surplus value from mclouth, machado etc.

    Every year the jays bullpen sucks, they get nothing from their picks like cecil, snider, thames, mcguire. And the expensive players that they have like lind, yunel, romero etc are now giving them negative value because they don’t even perform to average level.

    They jays could have drafted sale and trout. They could have traded lind, hill, wells, rios in their prime and got tonnes of talent in return. Instead they got nothing.

    It’s too easy to say the jays don’t spend money, but there’s a lot more behind the jays losing.

    • @big mouth hungry.

      These are excellent points.

      AA has been trying to maximize the number of draft picks he makes, but it’s to the minor league development staff to turn these draft picks into useful MLB talent.

      At what point is AA & his team of scouts held accountable for their own draft picks, 2015? 2018?

      Was AA ever involved in drafting players inthe Riccardi years? He must have had some input.

      What is fascinating about the Jays is that they turned DFA candidates like Jose Bautista & Edwin Encarnacian into All Star calibre players.

    • “This is how tampa and oakland keep winning”….seriously??
      Oakland and Tampa were perennial doormats in their respective divisions for a long time.
      Tampa finished last in the AL East for a DECADE, never winning more than 70 wins from 1998 to 2008. Oakland won 80 games once during the last 5 seasons.
      If you suck badly enough for long enough, and draft enough top picks – yeah, you’re gonna come up with some good young talent…IN ANY SPORT. If you were lucky enough to pick some gems and manage to teach them well – they can, in time, turn a franchise around.

      • I think both ends of that argument are oversimplifications because we’ve all seen teams that are perennial losers that constantly get high draft picks but are constant underachievers. There’s plenty of examples in all sports. At the other end of the spectrum there’s a lot that has to go right besides just having enough talent.

        @oakville With regards to the Jays draft picks, you can’t lay all the blame at Riccardi’s feet. If his budget was being pinched overall, and we all know it was and then some, he didn’t have the money to land the best picks available. It’s a scenario we saw over and over again where the higher ceiling guys dropped 10 or 20 picks down the ladder to teams like Boston and New York who were willing to pay. The Jays took a lot of players simply because they knew they could sign them and get them to the majors quicker. It had far less to do with taking the player with the most upside like they used to do and what AA is largely doing now.

        Riccardi is guilty of telling Rogers he could emulate a moneyball strategy that was and still is largely misunderstood. Rogers are the ones to blame for coming in and scrapping everything else in the search for big savings. Given what Riccardi had to operate with he ended up doing ok for the years he was in control but his actions at the behest of Rogers also damaged the team for the long-term.

        • Wasn’t Riccardi also convinced that the college route was the way to go? That those players were more polished already, and would be MLB-ready in a shorter time….regardless of the higher ceiling of a high-school kid?
          I don’t think he ever clued in that those college guys were available because the really high-talent guys were identified and scouted in their high-school years and signed to a team already.

          • I think it had more to do with the fact that it was more cost effective to be able to supply the major league team with major league ready rookie talent than extend it’s veterans.

            As for college guys vs high school kids there’s no question some high school guys have higher ceilings but that’s not always the case. Look at Strasburg for instance or Tulowitzki and Braun.

            Unfortunately scouting has such a large impact on these things and if you decimate it like the Jays did you’re kind of flying blind to a certain extent.

            Money plays such a big factor beyond the ability to sign a free agent. Go back to that 2005 draft. If the Jays had more money could have they have skipped Romero, signed a free agent pitcher and took the better player in Tulowitzki? I mean it doesn’t have to be those players but it’s just an example of having financial flexibility to do things in the coming years that affects other decisions as well.

  76. sports fans forget how much sports are a crap shoot. for instance corey patterson was drafted 3rd overall and twice was baseball america #1 prospect. pujols was draftedin the 6th round. tom brady was also drafted in the 6th round in the nfl and is one of the best starting qb. meanwhile ernie davis never played a game was drafted first and was a sure thing from the ncaa. michael jordan was drafted 3rd. sports are the getaway from life for the common man. if i was to ask most honestly in 2006 alcs who hit most homeruns, who lost etc, they couldnt tell me. name the last 10 wc champs to yourself. whether they win or lose your passion for rooting for the team shouldn’t or need not be swayed. i for one am excited for 2013. rp locked up long term and young leaves room for future focus on sp. i believe this group rp will be a core group for next few years.

    • @psmith.

      You make valid points.

      But it seems to me that this blog & others has a meme that the team was basically an expansion franchise in October 2009.

      I know that jp Riccardi chose a cheap drafting strategy of pick college kids who would sign with the Jays.

      Did AA have any responsibility or involvement in drafting players?

      I seem to recall that AA negotiated the flexible contract extensions with AAron Hill & Adam Lind.

      • oakville69 yes he was involved with scouting, seeing as he was first brought in to the jays fold as a scouting director (according to wikipedia, if we can trust it). However, that is a bit of an oversimplification of drafting. It also depends where your pick lands and your needs at the time. There is to much that can happen between when someone is drafted and there first big league game that makes that argument illogical. For instance at one time it made sense to draft Chad Mottola before Derek Jeter, that did not pan out well did it? How about Matt Bush, on and off field legal troubles. How about Adam Johnson.

        The flexible contract made sense at the time and to be honest they actually made a lot of sense. At the time Adam Lind looked like he was on the verge of being a good DH a 305 avg, 370 obp, 35 hr’s it looked like a sure thing to give to a 25 year old. Good to note Lind is going to be 29 next season, when did Bautista put it together, 28.

        I am not comparing Bautista to Lind, however, some players put there tools together some don’t. Read baseball America 2000 I believe on Corey Patterson, listed as a 5 tools player, well he didn’t even have 2 tools when we saw him.

        Major League sports are a crap shoot and anything can happen any given sunday. The Rays and The orioles are examples of this.

        People who suggest the Jays should throw an extra 50-100 million, how well did that work for the 2012 philies or 2011 mets, the 2012 angels.

        Check this out on why, the Jays world series drought is nothing.

        http://www.grayflannelsuit.net/blog/yer-out-the-10-longest-active-world-series-title-droughts-in-mlb-history

        They got to the world series, but Detroit, has been hurting for a world series more than we have. Could be worse, we could be the Royals who have not made the playoffs in 26 years.

        • Worse than paying 5 mill and having Lind Suck, is playing a declining player who doesn’t play and eats big money, ie 2001 Mo Vaughn being paid 13 million and didn’t play or 2003 when he was paid 17 million and hit 3 home runs, yes 3… Yes I know Lind under preforms, but fuck guys it’s 5 million dollar’s whoop-dy fucking doo.

  77. Thought you guys would like to see what the Boston media think of the Jays. Whom they clearly project to finish dead last in the division because of the ‘permanent rebuild’.

    http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/other_mlb/view.bg?articleid=1061174118&srvc=sports&position=recent

    • @Isabella. I read the article & it is pretty accurate assessment of the Jays. Permanent rebuild could be a Jays motto.

      Can’t wait for the Winter meetings. Will AA be able to pull the trigger on a major deal?

    • Sorry Tom W I didn’t see you had already posted.

      • That article was not negative towards the jays at all. Looked like a patchwork job where he uses quotes from AA here and there.

        the funny thing is how the orioles run to the playoffs last year might end up being the best thing for the jays for i truly believe it removes any excuses from the excuse mongering jays apologists as to making the playoffs in this division….right or wrong..it just does.

      • I’m curious as to why he’s bothering making predictions when the off-season has barely started. I agree with his perception of the Jays, but not with his prediction of the Jays finishing last (yet).

  78. Anybody know when the season’s pass comes out? Or remember from last year? I forget if it was Nov or Dec..

  79. Righties had an OPS of almost .800 against Sanchez last year. I really, really hope this isn’t the dude Rogers thinks they are breaking the bank and doing this huge favor to the fans for.

    • It’s almost as if once you sign the guy, you have to sign a dominant right handed reliever just to come on in the 5th inning and stop the bleeding. Sanchez may be a very expensive “loogy”.

  80. So Jonesy……I just looked up Sanchez’ 2012 splits last year and came across the BAA right handers ( .291 ) and his whip against righties ( 1.41 ). BUT! I didnt bother looking any further after I discovered Octavio Dotel’s name in the Detroit BP. Mr “dont-play-me-against-lefties” himself.

    • Haha.

      I hope we get the guy, sure — Sanchez, I mean. Dotel can eat a dick. We need so much pitching that a guy like Sanchez really helps. However, I am going to be shrieking mad if Sanchez is the ONLY guy we get. And if it’s framed in a way where boy, aren’t we diehard fans lucky Nadir approved even that much. There’s, what, one manager in the entire league that puts out a lineup filled with reverse splits (Maddon) and he happens to be in ours.

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