The “ninja” has returned, and for the first time in a very long while it genuinely feels like anything is possible.

You almost certainly know the details by now, but for the sake of completeness: in a double franchise-altering, perception-skewing, paradigm-shifting, division-tilting mega-trade, the Toronto Blue Jays have essentially– if not quite literally– doubled their payroll, acquiring from the Miami Marlins (pending league approval, which is expected to come Wednesday) RHP Josh Johnson, LHP Mark Buehrle, SS Jose Reyes, INF/OF Emilio Bonifacio, C John Buck, and perhaps most unbelievably of all, $4-million.

To get these pieces the Jays give up SS Yunel Escobar, SS Adeiny Hechavarria, RHP Henderson Alvarez, C Jeff Mathis, and prospects OF Jake Marisnick, LHP Justin Nicolino, and RHP Anthony DeSclafani.

No, really.

It still doesn’t feel real, and I’m not sure it will even after we do get official word that it’s gone through.

That’s largely because even the most cynical, pissing-and-moaning, Rogers-hating fan has to give full-on, ridiculous amounts of genuinely-shocking credit to ownership, who’ve added a crazy amount to not only the club’s 2012 payroll in order to make a deal that genuinely shifts the balance in the American League East, but to the Jays’ long-term salary structure, especially given that the deals to Reyes and Buehrle are backloaded considerably.

For 2012, the Jays shed $9.25-million from Mathis, Escobar and Hechavarria, plus a league minimum deal for Alvarez, while adding nearly $45-million– $13.75-million for Johnson, $10-million for Reyes, $12-million for Buehrle, $6.5-million for Buck and a projected $2.5-million in arbitration for Bonifacio. Factor in the $4-million of salary relief, and we’re looking at about $31-million being added to a payroll that Shi Davidi of Sportsnet already figured was going to be approximately $79-million, bringing the club to about $110-million as it currently stands.

More impressively– aka the kicker, if you’re Rogers, or the thing that will haunt your dreams, if you’re a fan worried about Rogers one day suddenly reneging on this spirit-buoying burst of goodwill– is the fact that Buehrle’s deal escalates to $19-million for 2014 and $20-million for 2015, while Reyes goes to $16-million in 2014 (making him and his turf-beaten knees the highest paid player on the club), then $22-million in each of 2015, ’16, and ’17.

Yes, one of the most amazing things about Rogers’ decade-plus of stewardship of this club is that even on a night like this– a night of tremendous optimism for the franchise and fans– we can’t get away from questions about how long this commitment might last. Without question, Rogers has earned that doubt. And putting their money where their mouth is only stems it so much. But I’ll say this: today, for once, those are some difficult words to stammer out, and that’s fucking huge.

So huge, in fact, that papers over a lot of warts we might otherwise be seeing all over this deal. Johnson has big health red flags, having missed much of 2007 with elbow trouble, 2008 with Tommy John, and 2011 with shoulder inflammation; Buehrle is aging and expensive; Reyes, though mystifyingly seven months younger than Escobar, may not age well on turf and costs about a bajillion dollars more; and the prospects headed Miami’s way still have a great deal of upside.

But on the other hand… fuck it.

Fuck it!

Reyes has been worth nearly 11 wins above replacement over the last two years! He’s a damn switch hitter! A legit lead-off man! A star!

Johnson has been worth ten wins over his last two healthy seasons, discounting his injury-riddled 2011. And he stayed healthy last year! Was absolutely dominant two years prior! And the Jays have a giant head start on re-signing him if he shows he’s back to even the four win pitcher he was last year, let alone the six win guy he was before!

Buehrle has been worth about six wins over the last two years! He pitched over 200 innings in both of them! And each of the ten years previous!

The two pitchers instantly address the club’s most painfully obvious area of need, adding talent above and beyond any realist’s most optimistic hope about what the club could have landed by way of the free agent market. And in 2010, Reyes’ worst full season since 2005, he was still worth a win more than two of Escobar’s last three– last year he was worth 4.5 to Yunel’s 1.8.

Not only that, he allows the club to distance themselves further from this summer’s homophobic slur incident.

Maybe more impressive still, the Jays didn’t even come close to destroying their farm system to make these major upgrades. Nicolino was the most polished, but had the lowest upside of the “Lansing Three”; Marisnick needed to force his way past a number of guys in the outfield before he could impact; Hechavarria is still no sure thing with the bat; and Alvarez throws hard but is nobody’s starter until he finds a third pitch.

The Jays got this deal done without moving Sanchez, Syndergaard, Osuna, d’Arnaud, Gose, Lawrie, or even Arencibia– who looks a strong candidate to be flipped, now that John Buck is setup perfectly to open the year as the Jays’ catcher, with Travis d’Arnaud coming along slowly and taking over the gig for good come 2014.

There’s Bonifacio, too– a nice little utility pickup, especially combined with the nice little utility pickup of last week. He was hurt last year but put up 3.3 fWAR in 2011. He’s a switch hitter, can fill in at a number of positions, and has stolen 70 bases over past two seasons, being caught only 13 times.

Perhaps best of all, the Jays– and Rogers, in particular– have shown something for once. I’m somewhat loath to get greedy, but they’re a much more attractive destination today than they were yesterday– or basically since their rotation went up in flames mid-season. Does a Melky Cabrera maybe now kind of want to come here? Does a Brandon McCarthy? A Joe Torre? A Bobby Cox?

Yes, these are wildly optimistic questions for fans who two weeks ago were applauding the sleight of hand that saved a presumably much-needed $500K from the 2013 payroll thanks to a curious pact with Rajai Davis. But why not?

Why not go for the kill?

I mean, ultimately, all that Rogers has bought themselves here is a brief respite from the negativism that’s been spewed all over their brand and their franchise for the last several months, at least, and that had been festering below the surface (if not overtly) for maybe longer even than its been since the last time they feebly tried to pay down their previous years of payroll lip service.

And really, it’s only an odd stroke– part luck, part genius– that’s brought us here: the Marlins’ despicable and long planned-for fire sale, and the shrewdness of Alex Anthopoulos, who has stockpiled the trade chips and budgeted with such austerity to place himself in a position to convince both Rogers and the Marlins that this deal needed to happen.

Sure, it’s all blowjobs and gumdrops today– all basking in tweets like Nick Cafardo’s, which says that the Red Sox “made a push for both Jose Reyes and Josh Johnson, but Jays just blew Marlins away”– but what the hell were they going to do if this didn’t come along??? I’m at least, at this moment, more comfortable that something would have been possible this winter, but… I’m not really sure how I feel about it right now, or why I feel compelled to reflect this way after what’s been a total starburst of a gut punch to my preparations for a long, mostly venomous, and ultimately disappointing slog through the off-season.

Like… surely somewhere there’s a parallel universe where this trade doesn’t magically appear, and the Jays ended up dealing for Gavin Floyd, signing a couple low-end rotation options, getting Beltran’d by the guys they really wanted and limping into next year on false hope. It’d be a real comfortable place, I think. And maybe, in a way that I didn’t want to admit to myself, seemed all too inevitable.

Tonight feels more than anything like a real chance to break free of that for a long time. We have a real team. Real owners. Real optimism. And the only thing that’s kinda hard to believe is that it’s really for us.

Yeah, it’s just one fifth of last year’s shitty Marlins, and uncomfortably goddamn expensive, but holy shit. HOLY SHIT! Maybe let’s turn into total dickheads and get greedy…

 

Image via @ArchiZuber.

Comments (492)

  1. That GIF is my favorite part of the deal.

  2. I haven’t stopped shaking. I don’t even care how these players pan out (yes I do), I’m just so happy that Rogers showed some god damn stones in letting Alex do what he thought was best…finally!!!

  3. Awesome, just awesome.

    Although the back loaded contracts may look bad now. It may not look as bad in a couple of years compared to the new contracts handed to the current class of free agents.

    • Yeah. Anibal is about to get 6 years 90 million from some jackasses (Boston?). These contracts really aren’t that restricting. We also free up Johnson’s contract after this year if we don’t resign which frees 13 million for spending……!

    • Don’t worry about the back end of the contracts. If Alex can sucker someone to take V.Wells massive contract, I’m optimistic he can find those a new home….if need be

  4. AA has provided me the birthday gift no relative ever could.

  5. If this is what it appears to be, yeah, I didn’t believe this day would ever come. There was just so much evidence to the contrary over the last 12 years that Rogers wouldn’t take a risk like this towards the goal of winning. I don’t know what AA (and yes…even Beeston) did to convince ownership to follow through on it in the end, but I’m incredibly glad they managed to do it.

    It’s time to get serious about winning. It’s time to play this game like the big market city and team that we are and always have been.

    • Lots of hookers and the promise to overpay on every phonebill!

      • There’s no question that Rogers can afford this with the amount of money they’re making off this team and the growing television revenue throughout baseball. Hopefully, they only keep building that payroll from here instead of pulling back like they did with Ricciardi and Godfrey after 2006/2007.

    • @BFullmer.

      Agreed. Rogers has finally committed to this team after 12 years. It’s bigger than 2005-6 free agent acquisitions.

      The Jays should be able to attract other free agents now that the team is a legitimate contender.

      • The plan was to stockpile picks for the last 3 drafts so they could be contenders and keep the FA premiums down.They should be arriving in a year or 2.

  6. Well, I’m having SOME hesitance believing this deal is as big of a steal as people are making it out to be. We’re taking on a few free agent contracts and post-arb extension contracts which is supposed to mean we’re paying beyond market value. I’m not TOTALLY convinced we couldn’t of done better in free agency, but I still think Bonifacio, and Johnson alone probably does a lot for me, considering the limited assets we gave up.

    I think the way, WAY bigger cause for celebration here is Rogers putting forth the fucking money! And I don’t give a fuck if we acquire payroll through trade or free agency, this truly marks a new dawn in Blue Jays history.

    • It’s important for these players to perform, because if we have another Wells and Ryan situation, rogers will be even more skeptical next time.

    • There’s a single pitcher on the FA market that is as good or better than Josh Johnson and he’s gonna take 150 million to get signed, so I dunno how you think the Jays could have done better in free agency.

      • Totally agree Leigh. I’m finding it hard to believe anyone can find fault in this deal. I guess there always needs to be one or two guys…..

      • Because the trade involved more than just Johnson. The trade used up all our money and we still don’t have an LF, 2B or DH, and we lost half of our trade chips

        • Did it use up all our money? Also: they’re better enough that those positions don’t matter.

          And they do have a 2B– Izturis or Bonifacio will be fine there.

          • If A. Sanchez is worth 6 /90 million, why is 3/48 Buerhle that bad of a deal, because the last three years of Sanchez is almost the same age of Buerhle. As well Sanchez is comparable is less than .500 winning percentage career wise.

            This deal with Johnson is solid value at 13 for 2013. God Marcum wanterd 3/33? Who is better, Stop whining Blue Jay Nation.

            People on other sites says our farm club is gutted. Ok #5 Nicolino, # 6 Marisnick and # 10 Hechevarria, who really was 30AB short of no longer being a prospect.

            Dont think this guts your farm system.

          • Good article. I agree 100% and yes, let’s be greedy.

        • Escobar was headed out of town, and there was no sane replacement, the Jays needed at least two starters. How many of those holes do you think the Jays could fill for the same amount of money through free agency.

        • The money that you and all the other trolls said didn’t exist, that you were calling Rogers greedy bastards about. You’ve just been given a gift, don’t fuckin look the person who bought it for you in the face and ask if there’s more, or where he bought it. You sound like a spolied litte bitch on christmas morning who’s unwrapped all his presents and is still greedy.

        • Last week we were only expected to add 10 mil to the payroll, so who is saying rogers won’t add more?

        • In poker, the chips sometimes have different colours to represent different values. Also, the pot usually consists of more than three or four chips.

          • Can I point out that the giants won the World Series with no Dh and Gregor fucking blanco in left…the jays ar better on paper than they’ve been in a very long time…lets just enjoy

        • As far as we all knew, all of out money was already used up before this trade.

        • Where the hell are you going to put Bonifacio if not LF or 2B?

      • @Cam_13 … word.

    • +1
      the fact rogers is finally willing to spend excites more than the actual trade.
      Reyes is a solid lead-off hitter but on turf his legs will fall off long before the deal expires
      Johnson is the best piece of the trade but is a free agent after next year
      Buerle is an inning eater but is ageing and…

      vs. Boston: 4.64 ERA in 118.1 innings
      vs. New York: 6.38 ERA in 67.2 innings
      vs. Baltimore: 2.83 ERA in 114.2 innings
      vs. Tampa Bay: 4.19 ERA in 96.2 innings

      @ Fenway: 5.60 ERA in 45 innings
      @ Yankee Stadium: 5.09 ERA in 17.2 innings (really small sample i know but its YS)
      @ Oriole Park: 3.07 ERA in 41 innings
      @ Tropicana: 4.69 ERA in 48 innings

      Having said that there will surely be more trades/FA signings in upcoming months to fill out remaining holes

      • I’m sure you won’t find too many starters in the same time frame who don’t have similar numbers. The Yanks and Boston were the best teams and highest paid in baseball during that time frame. They are no longer anywhere near that talented.

      • Buerhle is going to be something like the number 4 guy in the rotation. He eats innings. Nothing wrong with having him as your number 4 guy. You can’t expect glowing ERA’s across the rotation.

        Adding Johnson and Buerhle adds 400 innings to the rotation for fuck sakes. No more need to trot out Laffey and company.

      • A 5.00 ERA against glory days Yankees and Red Sox is probably league-average, which is frankly good enough.

        The Jays can afford to be a 0.500 club when playing the Yankees, Sox and Rays if they can consistently beat teams outside of their division.

  7. Dammit, now I have to wait like five months for the season to start.

  8. By the time those contracts look silliest — 2015 — the TV deal revenues will have kicked in and, ideally, the next wave of major league ready Blue Jays, especially the arms, to replace Buehrle and maybe Morrow and Romero, too. Those guys will come cheaply and maybe no current contract will look quite so big.

  9. This trade is great, no doubt. I dont expect them to spend much more on the payroll. However, AA still has holes to fill at LF and 2b. Im not really thrilled about the prospect of izturis and davis/ bonifacio in the lineup everyday. One of them is fine in the 9 spot but at the very least, AA needs to upgrade one of those positions. Some more cheap starting pitching depth wouldnt hurt as well. Jays also have arencibia to dangle in a trade. So hopefully they can get an everyday 2b or LF for him.

    • You my friend, are a fucking moron.

      • No, you my friend are the fucking moron. You’re just caught up in the excitement of the trade and dont realize other holes need to be filled. Have you watched rajai davis hit the last few years? Bonifacio is not much better. Having another average hitter in izturis wont help the lineup either. AA needs to upgrade at least 1 of those spots.

    • Still building video game teams where all players on the field are all-stars?

      Bonifacio/davis/izturis will be fine. Be nice if they could upgrade LF and then Bonifacio/Izturis at 2B would be good.

    • JPA+ Davis for Mike Olt.

      Rangers need catching badly, and OF back up.

      Olt doesn’t have a position in Texas and could be a 1B/DH in Toronto, also helping the Jays get younger and cheaper and replenishing the system (Olt would be a top 5 in the Jays system who is MLB ready)

      Sierra then fills 5th OF’er duties for Davis.

  10. 100% stoked.

    Haha.. now lets get our new Florida Marlin friends to convince their very good pal Anibal Sanchez to take a team friendly contract and be part of the fun.

  11. Geoff Baker chiming in with his thoughts after all his Rogers criticism over the years (he even seems to be referring to Stoeten/Parkes with his comment about team bloggers)

    http://seattletimes.com/html/marinersblog/2019676478_after_11_seasons_of_rebuilding.html

    • Great article!

    • Sure looks like it:

      “even bloggers previously defending the team’s thrifty ways had come to the conclusion that — By God, man! — some additional money had to be spent.”

      I’m not comfortable with that guy explaining Canada to Seattle.

      • The guy does not understand the concept of ‘context’. Nobody ever promoted perpetual thriftiness, but let him keep boxing that straw man in his mom’s basement.

    • He thinks Morrow will below Johnson AND Buehrle in the depth charts. Um, yeah, right. Morrow’s still the ace.

  12. I think everyone needs to get over their shaking and happiness that Rogers just threw a bunch of money at the Jays and think about what this deal means from a baseball perspective. The Jays now have a ton of money locked into Reyes and Buehrle in their declining years, and have paid a large premium to do so. I feel compelled to write a really long comment taking apart all of the arguments in support of this trade, but I know I’ll just be shut down by those who want to relish their bliss of having a higher payroll without actually thinking about whether we used the money wisely.

    And even after all this money, how good is this team really? Sure, the rotation is now above average, but it’s not the Phillies or the Giants or the Rays, and maybe not even the Yankees for that matter (CC, Pineda, Kuroda, Petite). Sure, Reyes, Lawrie, Bautista, EE make a nice 1-4, but keep in mind our 5-9 hitters are still Rasmus, Lind, Rajai Davis, JPA/Buck, Izturis/Bonifacio. Our offense isn’t exactly the 2012 Texas Rangers either, and there isn’t any money left to improve at LF, DH or 2B.

    Yes the 2013 is way better than the 2012 team, but if I told you that Rogers was gonna add $45M in payroll, and the Jays would give up 3 of their top 10 prospects plus Alvarez and Yunel Escobar, don’t you think we would have hoped for a little better?

    • First big break for the Jays since 1993. Calm the fuck down, ingrate.

      • And who told you that rogers won’t shell out a bit more for one more solidifying piece? Jesus fuck man have mercy on people being excited for once.

        • I’m all for being excited that the team is improving, but I just can’t ignore the consideration of whether this is a good baseball move or not.

          The payroll likely won’t go up anymore because now it’s at $120M, and that was the number Beaston said it would get to. Nobody believed him at the time, but it happened. I doubt it goes any higher.

          • The Jays added like 10 wins, what more do you want?

            • @kman…you don’t need an all star at every position to win…fucking cheer up…AA tried to make a 17 way trade for Justin upton, Brandon Phillips, Justin Verander, Prince Fielder, Clayton Kershaw and Johnny Mac but all the teams wanted Cecil AND Lind so he had to call Loria and get all these shit bags…

          • Let’s just deal in absolutes then. In order for the jays to win they need one of the best offense’s in the league “2012 rangers” didn’t make it past wildcard… or a supreme rotation like those you stated above. I bet you weren’t saying we need SF offense at the beginning of the year.

          • From Jul 1st 2012 on we had to put up with Brett Cecil and Aaron -fucking-Laffey.

            OMG the Humanity!

          • Before we proclaim the trade a win or a bust, how about we play some 2013 games. We can conduct the post-mortem then.

            In the meantime, why don’t we celebrate the fact that Rogers spent some money to make the team better, the Bosox didn’t get Reyes and Johnson, and we didn’t gut the farm to do so.

      • one final thing…CC, Kuroda, Pineda, Petite is better than Johnson, Buehrle, Morrow, Romero? CC, obviously the best pitcher out of the eight. Kuroda, 39 years and old and hardly a dazzler. Pineda, just came off tj surgery, so we have literally no idea how he will perform. Petite, just no.

    • Kman, You are an idiot. I don’t even want to waste the keystrokes explaining why.

      • Stoeten listed some of the negative parts of this deal too, but then just swept them away by saying screw it, we’re letting our emotions take over and we’re celebrating. I’m not saying it’s necessarily a bad deal, I’m just saying from a baseball perspective it’s pretty even at best.

        • It’s not even, not close. The contracts will get gross at the end but that’s the nature of baseball spending. So many people chided the Tigers for what they threw at Fielder because he’ll be a hippo flailing at curveballs the final few years of his deal. SO what? I said at the time and will say again if the Tigers win a series or two in the lifetime of that contract every single fan will trade those shit years for the titles. I didn’t think the Tigers would make the postseason this year but Fielder was enough of a deterent that pitchers had to throw Cabrera strikes.

          Don’t be greedy, don’t look at it with an algebra book in your hand, enjoy the fact that we just were the recipients of a couple allstars and a couple of above average players. Enjoy it. If Reyes and Buhrle end up playing below their contracts at the end it will be worth it if we have some banners to look at.

          • It’s easy to quote the Tigers while forgetting the fact that they were only in the playoffs in the first place because of a late-season collapse by the White Sox. How about the Angels money spent on Pujols. How’s that one looking right now?

            • As my grandfather used to say: “If the dog hadn’t stopped to pee, he would have caught the rabbit.”

              Fucking relax, this isn’t a biology dissection. We’ll see how this plays out when the players actually play. In the meantime, let the ninja do his job.

          • Same goes. If they win a series or two in the lifetime of Pujols contract it will be worth it. If the Gm had the balls to bring up Trout and sit Wells from the start they would have made the playoffs. Angels will win, the contract will be worth it. They have 10 years to prove it.

        • Pineda is out for 2013, the other two have no contract

        • Just look at the reaction in Boston and New York. Some in those markets are even suggesting that the Commissioner should kibosh the deal. Boston also made a play for Johnson and Reyes, but AA’s offer blew them out of the water.

          That should tell you something.

          If you don’t like this deal, then you are seriously fucking mad, like mad in a crazy way.

        • No. It’s an awesome move. I agree that they really should try and add another significant piece to truly contend.
          Still, I can legitimately imagine a hot Jays team getting into the playoffs now. I couldn’t say that last year.

    • For real? The Jays adding legitimate talent signed old free agent pricing at time of anticipated high inflations. Yes, back-loaded to make probably FMV. But real players, all-star type. This is very good! Live life man!
      Also, $45M increase massively overstating. Not necessary to overstate when already big! Not used to having big one I guess? Fair enough!

    • From a baseball perspective, the Jays just got a lot better in the short term and took on quite a bit of risk in the long term.

      I believe you are right to say that the team still isn’t good enough to win the East yet. They have several question marks and also fairly sizable holes at LF/DH. If they’re going all-in for 2013 (as they almost certainly are at this point), the additions shouldn’t stop here. In fact, they must not stop here if they want to maximize the value of this move.

      • What the hell is EE if there is a hole at dh? Why not Bautista at first, Bonifacio Rasmus Davis in the outfield. Like someone said, they won’t drive in a tonne, but the defensive runs saved will just about make up for it.

      • Agreed, but that’s the problem. If the payroll can go up to $130M and the Jays can still sign a Melky or trade for a Choo or something and then sign someone like Lance Berkman for cheap, then great. I’m just worried we’re at the $120M mark right now, where Beaston said we’d end up, and that there might not be any more money to go around. If that’s the case, then they might have needed to be more prudent with their $120M

        • I think if you can’t move Lind somewhere else, you can at least platoon him with somebody to maximize his value and get more production out of that position (it’s incredible they haven’t done this yet in three years).

          Bonifacio can play 2B with Izturis, but I wouldn’t want him in LF. That’s a spot where you need a much better bat than his.

        • If AA and Beeston can convince them to spend this much, they might be able to get them to spend a little more to complete this team.

          I’m not about to start doubting them…not right now.

      • I saw Drew also say on twitter Jays not really contenders in division yet. Not sure why!

        Yankees still very good but old, right? Very old and older next year. Now no Swisher, maybe no Kuroda. Gardner is good yes, but really who knows now? Missing whole year not usually terrific for young player. Also reports always saying now they are trying to spend less with luxury tax. I will believe when I see but still, many of their players are old and not so good any longer. These are problems.

        Baltimore is mirage and question mark. Relievers change quality every year. That was only thing they had for sure good. Now maybe not. Not really exciting anything with roster. Wieters very good. Owner bad and stupid. I guess we see.

        Tampa very good, okay. Big probably problem for Jays and rest of league. Not probably balanced roster right now but trade for hitter and yes, very good team.

        Boston useless.

        Jays have questions but really good. Not more questions than other teams. Really good players!

        Last year was lots of bad luck and only some spots filled. Now more spots filled! Just some good luck and contend. Maybe not favourite but not underdog!

        • The Yankees (better lineup than TOR) and Rays (better pitching staff than TOR) are still better than the Jays for now. They were two of the best teams in baseball last season and I don’t see any reason to think that will change.

        • This isn’t to say this current Jays team couldn’t contend, win the WC, or even the East (I mean Baltimore did it somehow), but they’d need more things to break right for them than NYY or TAM.

          • Aside from probably disagree about Yankees lineup especially with no Swisher, I think we are agreeing here. Arod probably bounce a little bit back, but what what to think with Jeter and broken ankle? Also even older. But for sure, very rich and easy for them to get players.
            And yes, like I say, Tampa very good. Look better from outside though also. Lots of question there too. For sure they have pitching to make a trade for hitter, but not yet.
            Not saying Jays win 100 game and World Series. Not even favourite right now (probably Rays I think), but contenders for real this year I think for sure.

          • Also I think it is funny, Jeff Keppinger would be really good 2B for Blue Jays. High contact, hit left pitchers very well. Too bad Baltimore probably will sign for many, many years and all of money.

        • Is it wrong that I actually read this post with a Russian accent floating around in my head. Wrong or not, I enjoyed it :)

        • Don’t count the red sox out. They just freed up $250 million in commitments. They can sign Greinke and Hamilton and still have money to spare. They had a shitty season plus one month, they could be right back in the thick of it before long.

    • If you’d like to talk about declining pitchers, have you considered the Yankees–oh wait you already mentioned their rotation…

    • To say this isn’t a giant step in the right direction is just deliberately being a buzzkill. Fuck off.

      • It’s a step in the right direction in terms of adding payroll and adding talent, for sure. I’m just worried that this is the end of the money for 2012, and we didn’t use the money well enough to be done yet.

    • 1) Soft tossing lefties age well, ask Jamie Moyer, yes he is overpaid, but that is the cost of doing business.

      2) Really you think the Yanks have a better rotation? (Sabathia had arm issues all last season, Kuroda is a UFA so you can’t pencil him in, Pineda just missed a full season due to arm issues not a guarantee to come back healthy/effective, Pettitte you can pencil him in for 100IP tops, do you realize how old he is?

      3)Keep in mind the Jays 5-9 are still better then the Rays, Orioles and Red Sox 5-9

      4) as for giving up 3 top 10 prospects, Hech was never going to hit, Marsinik took a step back these season and with Rasmus/Gose ahead of him and DJ Davis behind him he was a little redundant. Nicolino however I will miss. Having said that he hasn’t even pitched in high A let alone AA which is the hardest jump for a prospect to make (not including the one to the MLB) I love Nicolino but considering the haul I am ok with it

      5) compared to the Rangers offence, at least the Jays Manager won’t dress shitty Michael Young in the 2-5 hole. Not to mention they are now taking Hamilton out of the lineup. Not nearly as scary as they used to be.

    • Have you even remotely considered that the Jays might sit down with Reyes and or Beurhle to rework that annual salary?

      If they have gone this ALL in why not flip the outlay or at least normalize it to gain prudence in the back end.

    • We’re now much better than the 2012 Orioles, maybe around as good as this year’s Tigers, too. Playoffs are a crap shoot. They don’t need to be decisively better than the Rangers or Yankees. They just need to be able to make the playoffs. There’s a good chance at that now.

  13. +1′s all over the place on this wrap. Jays NEED to go for the kill. Melky or McCarthy would be that one additional piece that would take the insane hype of this team to “tattoo’d the 2013 roster all over my face before spring training’s over” levels, and you know what? I’d be cool with that.

  14. I love that you brought up the alternative universe Jays scenario. I’ve been thinking tonight, if Loria wasn’t such a (great business man) horrible owner….AA might only have done average things this off-season and we all would have sighed.

    Another (potential) benefit to this deal: This should elevate the odds of Darren Oliver coming back…no?

  15. Greinke!

  16. The Jays should just sign Jonny Gomes to be a RH platoon partner for Lind. LF is sorta taken care of with Davis/Bonifacio and I really think that Cabrera is gonna get more money than is sane even with all the steroids stuff.

  17. I might be the only one that believes the money’s always been there…but it wasn’t AA’s style to spend. It finally got to a point where value couldn’t matter any more and he had to go for the results. Which is the biggest question now, will it return results. They have way more talent now but that doesn’t always matter. After this year the value aspect of this deal gets way worse, and Jays fans are not going to be happy to try one year and be okay with the team reverting to not trying to improve the talent, we are already hearing “If Rogers will spend this much, why not more?” . I suppose as a fan I should be happy that the team is better, but I really do see a lot of questions still.

  18. Stotes, thanks for swearing off sleep and keeping the good vibes going. I’m having a glass of whiskey right now in celebration, hope you’re doing the same.

  19. I love it! LOVE IT!

    Love the top of the rotation with Johnson
    Love the middle of the rotation of Beuhrle
    Love the All-Star SS in Reyes
    Love the switch hitting, super fun to say name Emilio Bonifacio
    Love that we have up nothing we can’t afford! (Still rootin for Marisnick, Nicolino etc.)

    Honestly, great. it makes so much sense now for a guy like Mccarthy to come here. He has a rotation spot, he doesn’t have to be an ace, and he’s the perfect piece to fill out the rotation.

    Gotta love it.

  20. I don’t think it is an accident that this team has acquired three switch-hitters in the last week.

    KMAN does have a point, though. Also, we don’t know just how crazy the market might or might not get. The Jays would have a much better idea of this, so we should probably recognize that the team has a lot more information and can make a better read of the market direction.

    Well done, Alex, getting the deal done but most importantly getting the payroll jumped.

    • The Salary taken on was huge, but Anibal Sanchez wants 7 years 90 mil?

      yeah.. I’ll take Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes.

      • Johnson, when healthy, is a fucking stud. Much better than Anibal.

        Keith Law tweeted last night that Johnson finished the season strong and was back to his 93-97 range with the heater.

  21. outside of pitching and hiting skill, this team has:

    damn good defense
    way above average speed
    base stealers
    3 switch hitters

    getting a gm that makes it all work is important. Farrell was quie underwhelming in this regard

  22. I don’t understand how these players are any different than say signing jackson or anibal for 6/90 and then going after scutaro or keppinger for 3 year deals and then keeping all your prospects?

    If I had told you the jays had traded 2 shortstops, marisnick, and nicolino and didn’t get any young controllable starter in return, instead a 34 year old buerhle you’d say that was insane.

    • You can’t see the difference between Reyes and Scutaro?

      You can’t see the difference between Josh Johnson and Edwin Jackson?

      Ok

      • Yes reyes is obviously better but look at the massive risk in the contract.

        • Is it somehow crippling to have an elite shorstop on a big contract without a no trade clause? What am I missing?

          • Yeah, I don’t see this guy’s point. Would he not also be complaining about the risk inherent in the free agent deals that he proposed up top?

            I’m so confused

    • They’re different because they’re actually attainable, for one.

      • YOu don’t actually know that until you see what anibal signs for. Just because he wants 6/90 doesn’t mean he’ll get it. Jackson only could get a 1 year deal last year no? You’re telling me he would have turned down 5/50???

        • This is not making you happy? Yesterday Blue Jays were not very good baseball team. Today they are very good!
          Sure, not best yet but this is a not small difference!

        • Oh for the love of god, shut up and enjoy this Big Mouth. Other fans would around the league would dream of something like this happen to their teams they follow.

        • Your reply and theory is nothing but speculation…..what we are happy about is what actually happened. And the same risks wouldve been the same player wise but the difference in risk is higher banking on getting all those FA’s for the price YOU are speculating….much different.

        • Or he may get more 7 years at 100. That is crazy term. When Johnson is extended will that fill the empty void in you.

    • I said in the last post that I wonder if the Jays could have signed Buerhle/Reyes last year and saved the prospects… but you have to also factor in the fact that a LOT of these players are NOT coming to Toronto. As it stands, it is not a desirable location.

      Scutaro is signing with the Giants. Jackson/Anibal may very well refuse to come to Toronto.

      • There was a report out last year when Buehrle was an FA that Miami was pretty much all he wanted. Toronto was definitely not in his plans.

      • By signing Reyes we don’t have DJ Davis in our system….

    • And to add onto what Kylz said, who is to say that any of those guys would sign in Toronto anyway? You need to face the fact that Toronto isn’t a desireable place for players to sign. We are a Dome-Dinosaur, turf, another country with more tax, customs hassle, U.S. media rarely pay attention. If you were to take the money that Anthopolous just added and tried to spend it on the FA market I’m quite sure you would not come up with anywherenear the talent he just added. We just got a superstar shortstop who won a batting title, a guy who threw a perfect game, and a guy who won an ERA title for fuck sakes. Jesus fuck, what’s wrong with you people?

      • I’m down with that smasher. I also think that when you put a guy like Reyes in a batting order (maybe leadoff?), you get to put other guys (like Lawrie) elsewhere and it has an overall beneficial effect. I wouldnt be surprised if Lind and Rasmus start hitting like they can.

      • Hear, hear.
        There’s none so blind as those who will not see.
        Cheers Smasher.

    • Also, how do you just sign these players? You know there are 29 other teams right.. You really are hungry!!

      • Right! Thats the FA premium all over again wherein Beest and AA said the Jays (like we’ve never heard this before but its true) had to pay more to get an elite FA to come to TO: First because they were in a different country, and second because they weren’t contenders. That trade a) changed that because now the Jays will contend and b) avoided paying the premium.

    • Yeah, it would also mean a massive overpay to convince Scutaro to leave SF to join the Jays….like that would make sense. Also signing a #3 starter in Anibal for 90 million? Now that would be insane you ignoramus.

    • Seriously man, you are a piece of shit. Greedy fucking joke waste of a life motherfucker.

    • Who says any of the FAs would have chosen Toronto. We may have gotten 1, maybe, but that’s about it. The trade worked because none of the players involved had no trade clauses.

  23. If the Jays could trade 2012 Adam Lind for 2009 Adam Lind….that would be pretty sweet.

  24. here is what I don’t like about this deal

    reyse for yunel/adeiny – WIN

    buck for mathis – WIN

    nicolino/marisnick/alvarez for 1 year of johnson and buerhle – LOSE

    I’m sorry but 1 year of johnson should not have cost that much and same for buerhle. That was a gross overpay.

    You’re telling me we couldn’t have gotten latos for that? Any team would give up 1 young starter for that haul.

    • In what world would it be a loss to trade two low-level minors prospects and Henderson Alvarez for two proven MLB starters?

    • There is some merit to that.

    • What if its Reyes for Hech/Yunel/Marisnick- win
      Buck for Mathis – who gives a fuck
      JJ for Nicolino/Alvarez – win… probably.
      Beuhrle – Descalfini – Win
      Bonifacio – Free

      • It’s Reyes for Hech/Yunel/Marsnick and $100M. That’s not a win.

        • Yeah it is. If you’re looking for a giant trade completely devoid of risk then you’ll never be happy

          If the only risk is money, and the upside is this big, then it’s a good deal.

          • KyleZ nailed it again. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting, I’m too drunk to try to explain to the spoiled what they’ve been given.

            Alex Anthopolous, tonight I drink to you good sir.

        • Then what would be a win kman to upgrade the lineup? Would the Free Agent route be any cheaper?

          • No it wouldn’t, but trading prospects for cheaper controllable players and leaving the extra money to buy FAs like Melky might have been a better alternative. Who knows? We’ll never know what AA’s other options were, but usually to get something good you only have to take on the risk in either money or loss of prospects, but not both together.

        • Geting Reyes for that whole package is a win.

          He is probably the second best SS in baseball (Tulow is best), but not only that he fills 3 needs for the Jays.
          1) A lead off hitter (Now Lawrie can hit for some power in the 2 or 6 hole)
          2) A Switch hitter
          3) a guy who gets on base over a .320 clip.

          Not sure how you can view that in any other way.

      • You could probably consider chalking up ‘buck for mathis’ as a W, too.

      • Bonifacio is much better than some people credit him to be. I’ll take a free Bonifacio any day of the week.

    • Agreed, and I think you’re even being too generous. Reyes is better than Escobar for sure, but is he $10-15M plus Adeiny better than Escobar. Unclear…

      • @kman … Well yes because it’s not just that we upgraded from Yunel to Reyes, but Reyes alone solves a number of weaknesses for the Jays that neither Yunel/Hech were ever going to do – the Jays didn’t have a legit leadoff guy who can hit/get on base plus steal a bunch and they were lacking in lefty hitters to provide balance to the lineup. Reyes is going to make things happen on the basepaths, give the kickstart and confidence the top of the lineup needed and will allow Bautista and EE to see better pitches – Yunel/Hech could only dream of doing these things. These intangibles alone are going to make the Jays drastically better, more than just talent alone.

      • kman must be a transplanted Philadelphia person since they know nothing about sports just like kman.

    • If Johnson can be extended, this is good.

      Buehrle is a very consistent, middle-of-the-rotation starter signed for a few years still.

      It is not IDEAL, but if AA locks up JJ, it looks pretty solid.

      There are huge question marks on Nicolino (velocity), Marisinick (hit tool) and Alvarez (out pitch)…

    • UNTIL the prospects do anything in the major leagues….it’s a win for the Jays.

      There’s NO guarantee any of those three would have become above replacement major leaguers with the Blue Jays. The Jays organization is still stacked with prospects for the “What if” people to drool over…don’t you worry.

    • You lining them up like that as if each player was traded for each player is idiotic.
      Where’s your fuckin head at? It took the prospects with the players for THE WHOLE PACKAGE.

      Oh wait, you must have been kidding with that post and the jokes on me??

    • All I know is this:

      JJ > Latos.

      end of discussion

      • 4 years of Latos >>>>> 1 year of JJ

        • fuck we’re idiots
          why didn’t we trade absolutely no one for a team full of 7 war players making league minimum that that could be under team control for the next decade? goddammit AA got hosed

    • Here’s what I don’t like about your post
      1. Everything

  25. I was watching the Sons Of Anarchy Season 4 finale when I read the news. Spoiler alert so pay heed.

    The news broke just as the CIA rolled in and shut down the USDA’s mega-sting which had been planned for two years and literally folded the tent on a legion a squadron of trigger happy federal marksmen, sending everyone packing

    I’m ecstatic for AA’s latest blockbuster. But I’m also secretly fearing a presser tomorrow where Selig quashes the whole thing. And Danny Trejo is standing beside him nodding in approval.

    • Escobar’s hit*

      With Alvarez gone who would be the 6th or 7th starters, which surely will be needed eventually? Drabek and Hutchison won’t be ready for the start of the season, and who knows about McGowan. They’ll probably have to add another pitcher unless I’m forgetting a potential starter.

      • Villanueva

      • Seven starters? What? I mean, ok, injuries happen, and depth helps. But if you’re suggesting that because there were a freak number of injuries last season that decimated the rotation it’s bound to happen again and we should be prepared for that, then I don’t know what to say. How many pitchers are enough in your paranoid little world. In fact, why don’t we be sure to have five back up right fielders out there in case Bautista gets hurt again?

        If the rotation suffers serious injuries again, they’ll do what every team does: look to the minors to fill the holes with short-term gaps. Depth isn’t important until you’re sure that your front line guys can perform.

        The better question, if you want to be cynical, is what happens when JJ demands 100/7, goes to the Red Sox for 2014, and all that remains from this deal is the decaying corpse of Mark Buerhle, who can’t possibly put up as many innings as he has in the seasons to come. If Romero doesn’t get back to where he’s been in the past, and/or if Morrow plateaus or declines, this looks like a problem.

        But hurray for Rogers and AA and Beeston for spending some dollars and actually taking a risk.

  26. but why didn’t he just tag him?!?!

  27. The only player the Jays gave up with significant MLB value currently was Escobar (and that’s if he gets back to his 2011 form). Hech has no bat, Alvarez has no breaking ball, Nicolino, DeSclafini, and Marisnick are lottery tickets, and Jeff Mathis is Jeff Mathis.

    From strictly a player/2013 value perspective, it’s a tremendous coup for AA. They’ve upgraded hugely here.

    The contracts of Buerhle and Reyes could come back to bite them for sure down the line, but ideally, if AA continues to supplement this roster, the Jays will have entered a new era of consistent contention and high payrolls by then and they’ll be able to handle it. Ideally, 2013-2015 won’t be a repeat of what 2006-2008 ended up being.

    • Ideally, but I’m not sure it won’t be. All it takes is for Reyes’s glass legs to shatter, and we’ve got another Vernon Wells on our hands

      • You can say that about ANY big ticket player, (Verlander, Cabrera, Cain etc…) so stupid. Quit being a pussy.

      • There’s no reason to be sure about such a thing.

      • Great point. This is a concern for Reyes and EVERY OTHER STAR PLAYER IN BASEBALL.

        AA should have taken all this money to free agency and signed a bunch of guys to No Injury Clauses, amiright?

      • A key difference between now and then is the second wild card. The Jays would have been right in the fight for the second wild card all three seasons, maybe close enough even to upgrade and put them over the top.

        With the second wild card, the playoffs are more readily achievable. And, from there, it’s a crap shoot.

    • I’m with you on your point but you can’t just lump Nicolino, Marisnick and Desclafani as lottery tickets without qualifying their individual value as prospects.

      For example, Desclafani is essentially a nothing. He’s middle relief if he makes it.

      Much different player than Nicolino and Marisnick who are top 100 guys.

  28. I like what Dividi said tonight.

    That the Jays put pressure on the rest of the division by going in fast and furious, made the team better, and are not going to be scrambling as the off season pushes on.

    There’s a movie sequel out now called
    “Get Reyes to the Greek”

    • Disclaimer.

      I talked smack about Rogers nickel and diming.

      I love Alex, but thought he was being puppeted.

      They really had me believing they were feebly trying to be the Billy Bean of the AL East, which is hard to do.

      They weren’t blowing smoke. They are evidently blowing fire. And I just finished eating a shit pot roast, but very happily.

      My mullet suddenly has a tremendous amount of body and shine to it right now.

  29. This seems like JPR second half all over again. AA realizes he ‘s going to get fired in 3 years anyways if the team doesn’t win so he goes all in and doesn’t care about the back loaded contracts because he won’t be here to clean it up.. If he wins he gets an extension.

    • You really should jump off that ledge and get it over with. Please.

    • It’s not all that different from the 2005 spending spree. We’ve just got to hope AA will do what it takes to propel this organization into the playoffs and past what JP did in 2006-2008. If we want Rogers to stick with this level of financial commitment and not just start selling off players like they did in 2009, that may need to happen.

      • Whether the 2005 spending spree is relevant to this trade, a team eventually needs to make a move to go for it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

    • There’s a rather big difference between the Riccardi years and this trade.

      We’re now at a point in time where the division has never been more there for the taking as the Yanks are filled with problems (Pineida coming off a serious arm injury, Jeter broken ankle, A-Rod becoming A-Rust, no Swisher, Kuroda maybe going to the Dodgers, etc.), Red Sux are suxing big time, O’s an one-year mirage, and the Rays appearing to be trading some pitchers.

      The Jays also have two hitters (Bautista and EE) that are better than the best from 2007 or so (Wells and Rios), have a better young core in Lawrie/Rasmus to supplement with, and what this trade does in particular is to bring in some solid pitching that will go a long way toward bridging the gap between now and when all the young’uns are ready to blossom (i.e. Hutch, Drabek, Syndergaard, Sanchez, Osuna, Stroman). Sure, Buerhle might be toast by the end of 2014 or 2015 but he’ll bring a reliable, veteran presence as a #2 for the next two or three years that will rub off on the many youngsters, and he’ll be a terrific #5 guy in 2015/16 when he starts to decline. I can certainly think of many worse guys than Buerhle to look up to and emulate – he’s tossed 200 innings for 12 years in a row and you KNOW what you’re going to get from him which is a nice reality to have after all the injuries we’ve had recently.

      Sure, Johnson might not be the guy he was a couple years ago, but there’s a good chance he would be — and wouldn’t you rather have a guy who could very well be top 5 in the league in ERA here in Toronto than to be shining in Boston? At the very worst, he gives us a season to bridge the gap between now and when some of the injured or young guys come back.

      Reyes? He gives us a presence at the top of the lineup that we haven’t had for years and he’ll hit, get on base, steal, provide good defense, and set the table in ways that Yunel and Hech would never be able to do. Yunel never inspired confidence during his time at the top of the order so just having the presence of Reyes is a major WIN for the disruption factor and for giving Bautista/EE better pitches to hit.

      We’ve also gone from McCoy as our super sub to Emilio Bonifacio. Epic win.

      Buck? Let’s say we get JPA to go for a decent LF, then Buck will be an upgrade over Mathis as a placeholder until d’Arnaud develops his skills and knowledge of the pitching staff (speaking of which, Buck already knows four of the five projected Jays starters at the moment, so that helps). Win.

      And we’ve now gone from being a place where managers want to go elsewhere for their dream jobs to becoming an attractive place for managers. Just don’t bring in Ozzie, for the love of Dog.

      All that makes this trade a drastically different setting than when Ricciardi opened his chequebook – he picked up guys that were unexciting and still had holes all over the place, and most people didn’t think they made Jays legit contenders. With this trade, the Jays are legit contenders with the others in the division more vulnerable than usual and they’ve filled some rather significant holes and needs. The buzz is completely different with this trade than it was when Ricciardi made his moves.

      We’ll see, but I have a pretty solid feeling that (a) this trade has a more reasonable shot of putting the team closer to the top of the division than Riccardi’s moves did, (b) Anthopoulos isn’t finished with his moves because he still has some legit trade chips up his arm, and (c) the farm system is still in terrific shape with players ready to step in when, hopefully, the pitchers obtained have done their jobs well for a while and then start to decline.

      The optimism of this trade is certainly warranted. Absolutely, things could go wrong, but there’s a lot of very good reasons to like this trade and think it’ll be the start of something really good.

      {steps down from soapbox}

      • Oh, and another important consideration in this trade — Jays got rid of a guy who has a long reputation for being disruptive (Yunel) and picked up Buerhle who will provide vital leadership and a real clubhouse presence and is a guy who wouldn’t accept the type of B.S. that Yunel did. Let’s see if he can rub off in a positive way onto guys like Lawrie. If he does, then the intangibles alone makes it that much more of a win for the Jays. The old intangibles weren’t working.

        • Tee hee – “Let’s see if he can rub off in a positive way onto guys like Lawrie”

  30. Why do people bash loria. The guy is a genius. He signs a boat load of contracts. It doesn’t work so he unloads them and get a boat load of prospects back and gets a do over.

    What do you think AA will do if this team doesn’t win next year? He’s going to dump all these contracts as fast as humanly possible.

    • Proving that you know FUCK ALL…most people have a problem with Loria because of the way he cheated the tax payers of Miami to fund the fucking team. I’m just goin to assume your a Masshole troll fuck coming in here to try and kill the buzz because you’re jealous. Ah, now I feel better.

    • So this is like troll confirmation, right?

    • Loria is a Corporate Carpetbagger. He screwed the State of Florida and the Municipality Taxpayers for 350,000,000 in taxes no different than the Skydome cost the Ontario taxpayers.
      He cried to MLB for financial support, He is no different than Bernie Madoff in smaller terms or the President of ENRON.

  31. Is it too late to abort? #subtext

  32. Best part of the trade – not giving up too many prospects (still have Sanchez, Syndergaard, Gose, TDA, Osuna, Norris, etc.) and further, still having assets to deal like JPA. JPA has to be dealt now (for pitching? LF?) since we have Buck, who is the perfect stopgap while TDA gets called up and learns the ropes.

    Further? Buck has caught for Johnson and Buehrle obviously, but he’s also caught for Romero and was on the team with Morrow (who mostly had Molina catching for him at the time). Already having familiarity with 4/5 of the rotation is a plus.

    • I like the point about Buck being the catcher the last time Romero was relevant. Let’s hope that plays.

  33. I’m starting to think AA has learned from the snider fiasco. If there are any flaws in a prospects game it’s better to trade him while he still has value instead of hoping he gets it and getting nothing in return.

    marisnick has a weak bat. He’s never dominated any level and has little power.

    alvarez as we know has no out pitch.

    nicolino is a lottery ticket.

    look at how quickly cecil declined. look at how quickly rasmus failed.

    • Wait… What’s happening here… You’re starting to be logical?

    • So. You were just happy with riding out these young guys and hoping to catch lightening in a bottle?

      Even man who wants to win big has to go all in at some point.

      I like the risk, and win or lose ill stick with the risk AA just made cause he hung his hair nuts, and it respect a man who steps up when it’s time. And it sure as he’ll was time.

      Go back to bitching and Bobby Love ya Red Sox chump.

      • I hate auto fill as much as I hate Nick Swishers shit eating grin.

      • No I would only trade the prospects for something young and controllable like a latos type. then spend the big money on free agents

        • State the last FA who accepted big money for the Blue Jays….. BJ Ryan, lets remember this… where did that get us….
          AJ Burnett, 3 years with us and off to the Yankees.
          Fill your mouth with Brain FOOD
          The cost Canada will pay for FA ,if they come will be 20% over the super inflated salaries

      • Props to AA for hanging is hair nuts

        • Big mouth isn’t flip-flopping. He’s the only one of you actually talking sense (besides fullmer fan). We accept and are happy about the fact that the prospects the Jays gave up all had questions about them, and to sell them now isn’t a bad thing. But we also recognize that that being said, the package we gave up had a lot of trade value, and I’m not sure the Jays got the best bang for their buck.

          This sudden increase in spending that improves the team but still leaves holes to be filled when it at least seems possible that they could have made similar improvements while spending less in either money or prospects seems eerily reminiscent of the JPR era. And that’s a bit scary.

          • Here’s why you’re wrong, and I’m tired of pointing it out:

            Until 8 hours ago as far as you knew the Jays had barely enough salary to sign a back end starting pitcher. AA turned a few prospects and a few headaches into 3 all stars. (4 if you want to actually go by guys who played in one)

            Bang for buck – You keep bringing up free agency, anyone rational keeps bringing up how FA’s don’t want to play in Canada. You can not duplicate the talent added via free agency, maybe if our payroll became 200 million.

            We gave up Good prospects granted, but they are just that, prospects, in return we got proven stars.

            I seriously doubt there was any move that could have been made today that wouldn’t have you criticizing. But maybe that’s the point, I’m starting to think that you’re not stupid, just a guy that enjoys arguing. Even when he’s horribly wrong.

          • Yup. All of kman’s arguments hinge on The Blue Jays being able to treat free agency like window shopping. Not considering that there are 29 other teams interested in signing players and players not necessarily wanting to play for your team.

          • They can always pawn a washed up, over-paid veteran pitcher to the Sox or Yankees and they still have some strong young talent in the pipeline.
            They have outs if this thing doesn’t come together.
            This move can be equated just as easily to the Gillick era as it can be to the JP era, that worked out nicely.

  34. Up well past your bedtime aren’t you, Stoeten? Or maybe you just haven’t had enough to drink to overcome the adrenaline rush LOL.

    My first reaction was that Toronto was giving up future prospects to put them into a contending position next year. I couldn’t decide whether that was good or not because, other than Buerhle and Buck, I didn’t know enough about the Marlin players they were getting.

    Giving up Hech and Alvarez bothered me because, having watched those two, I can see a huge amount of potential which will make itself apparent over the next 3-4 years. The minor league prospects they are giving up are really speculative because I don’t see them making an impact in the majors for at least three years and their possible star status at least 4-5 years beyond that.

    Unlike most of the posters, and the headliners, I don’t view JJohnson as prime piece in this trade. I don’t even view Reyes as the best piece. I see Buehrle as the best piece. That is because he is durable and consistent. He will continue to pitch at the same tempo until he is in his 40s because of his mechanics. He is the stabilizing influence in the rotation. When JJohnson goes down with the inevitable injury, Buehrle will be there to pick up the slack. Ricky Ro can learn more from him to become a durable and reliable starter. JJohnson has the potential to be a good addition until he falls to another injury – I believe that’s inevitable, based on his pitching mechanics and history. He’ll be good for one, maybe two seasons unless he improves his mechanics. Overall, the acquisition of these two pitchers overcomes my trepidations about losing Alvarez.

    The acquisition of Reyes is interesting because his record makes getting him a big plus to losing Escobar and Hech. For Escobar, regardless of his politically incorrect moves and the questionable media perception of his negative influence in the clubhouse, his performance on the field was, at best, average both defensively and offensively. Offensively, he was reliable for making contact and hitting ground balls, but this in turn made him a liability to hit into DPs but an advantage for hit&run plays. His defensive play was questionable – there were a lot of ground balls which he could have fielded but didn’t, double plays that he couldn’t make because a base runner was coming in hard at second, and pop flies which he always insisted on taking, despite it being easy plays for the other infielders. For Hech, he was demonstrating obviously superior defensive abilities at all the infield positions except 1B, the question was his ability to perform offensively. Watching him at the plate you could see the evolution of an excellent hitter. Sure, it was going to take time, but I believe he showed a lot of potential to adapt to what MLB pitchers were throwing and becoming a great hitter for his position. The acquisition of Reyes is not quite the value of losing both Escobar and Hech (especially) but in the overall trade it is acceptable.

    The rest of the pieces are just window dressing. Overall I believe this trade is a gain for the Jays, but assessing its overall worth can’t be done until we see the results. I have to cast a cold blanket on all the hopes and dreams being generated by this trade by pointing out that the Marlins had these players, and other talented players, last year and still had a worse record than the Blue Jays. Caveat Emptor.!!

    • Your last line has serious flawed logic. There are stars playing on a lot of shitty teams, if we pick them up we don’t improve because their teams didn’t win?? Horrible bullshit logic.

      Also Johnson IS the most talented arm in the deal regardless of injury history. He may get hurt but he’s the star of the two slingers. If he stays healthy he’ll be our best pitcher.
      And I sayl that being a big Buehrle fan.

      • Baseball is a team sport.

        Hiring a bunch of good players doesn’t guarantee a winning team.

        Buying a bunch of good FAs doesn’t guarantee a good team.

        These guys were all part of the same team last year and couldn’t play together as a team.

        Going on that past performance I am cautioning that people’s hopes may be getting too high.

      • I agree that from his performance, and given his younger age, Johnson is the more talented pitcher of the two and has the greater potential. If he stays healthy he should put in a stellar performance – for the year that the Jays have him. Buehrle’s contract means that the Jays have him for more than one year, which, considering his consistency, puts him at a higher value than Johnson in my book.

    • “I couldn’t decide whether that was good or not because, other than Buerhle and Buck, I didn’t know enough about the Marlin players they were getting.”

      I stopped reading there. If you didn’t know enough about Reyes, Johnson, and Bonifacio than you shouldn’t be commenting in a fucking baseball forum.

    • Is Alverez better than his replacement , maybe in three years yes… but is his replacement Buerhle, who we agree has extraneous benefits, or is it Hutchison or Sanchez or Syndergaard?

      Hechevarria, will be compared to the next 3 years with Reyes, prefer Reyes, after that your point is relevant. We will be looking for Reyes replacement in 4 years.

  35. Stoets is as giddy as a school girl, but really who isn’t? the truth is we’ve had little to no reason to be excited about the investment put into this club until now. At the end of the day i just want the oriloles to finish below us.

  36. @fullmer fan

    I’m sorry but tampa offense is a serious question mark. they are going to lose upton and keppinger. Their closer can’t be any better. Then they’ll lose shields after next year.

    The yankees at some point have to show their age. Pettite will get worse. arod’s bat is already slowing. soriano is gone. rivera is almost finished. jeter is on his last legs.

    The AL east is opening wide like moses parting the red sea allowing the blue jay slaves to run through to the promised land.

    • That very awkward reference aside…..Jays have added a lot of base running gusto (Reyes 40 SB, Bonifacio 30 SB, Izturis 17 SB in 2012 with a high success rate combined) to the club.

      “I feel the need…..the need for speed!”

  37. My hope is now that JP can be traded for a corner outfielder with some years of control. With this trade there is a short and medium term plan t be competitive for the next 5 years. We may now have the most dangerous offence in the American League if everything breaks right.

  38. I’d love to see that smile being wiped from farrell’s face as he read the headline.

  39. I hope AA rounds this team out into a world series cotender. We could still use another starter and I hope he still pursues the Dickey option. either that or the addition of one more bat could go a long ways. The Jays are officially in win now mode. Bautista, EE, Reyes, Buehrle, Johnson, Morrow, Romero, Santos, among others are in their prime now. The veterans are the core and the young guys are supplemental, they need to try and win over the next three years. AA probably has the assets to take them over the top, and if there is a time to do it it is now.

  40. someone put a suicide watch on John Farrell.

  41. I’m starting to wonder if AA will still go after sanchez or jackson. JJ contract is off after next year and he will not sign here anyways so it will only be a 1 year hit.

    after next year you have about 33 mil coming off in johnson, lind, buck, davis, happ

    • and you have $12M coming on in increased payments to Buehrle and Reyes, plus arbitration raises for some players means there are at least $15M in increases. Also, Happ isn’t gone until after 2014 I think, although you forgot about Oliver coming off the books, so I guess that evens out. But still, not $33M to play with, more like $15M. And that disappears to in 2015 with the increases to Reyes and Buehrle.

      If payroll stays as is, all Jays can do is get another SP on a one year $15M deal for 2014, and then hope the kids are ready to step up in 2015. Which isn’t a terrible plan, I guess

      • you are right. but happ can be non tendered if his performance doesn’t increase. same for rasmus.

  42. SH SS Jose Reyes
    SH LF Emilio Bonafacio
    RH RF Jose Bautista
    RH 1B Edwin Encarnacion
    LH CF Colby Rasmus
    RH 3B Brett Lawrie
    LH DH Adam Lind
    RH C JP Arencibia
    SH 2B Maicer Izturis

    Davis, Gose, Sierra, McCoy, Cooper, Buck, d’Arnaud, Wilson

    RHP Johnson
    LHP Buehrle
    RHP Morrow
    LHP Romero
    LHP Happ

    LHP Cecil, RHP MgCowan, RHP Drabek, RHP Hutchison

    RHP Santos
    RHP Janssen
    LHP Oliver
    RHP Delabar
    RHP Lincoln
    LHP Loup
    RHP Rogers

    What does this team need to win the world series?

    • I agree with the lineup idea, however I like Reyes in the two spot better than in the lead. Bonafacio seems to have more in the tank in terms of running, and the stealing potential will still be there.

      Reyes power/average along with speed would be great in the two hole.

      What we need is to upgrade Adam Lind and maybe upgrade Left Field (Bonafacio).
      Perhaps even add another arm (Marcum?).

      If the lot can stay healthy and produce I could see us getting to the World Series. The speed, power, defense and pitching would all be there.

    • the book says you want your 3 best hitters in 1, 4, and 2 spots…
      i could live with bautista in the 3-hole, but lawrie should be hitting second regardless of what this means for opposing relief pitching

    • Disagree with one item….

      Bonifacio should be our starting 2nd baseman vs RH with Izturis starting vs LH and being utility guy.

      Love to add either a decent LF and live with Lind in the line-up
      or
      Add a decent 1st baseman and live with Gose / Davis platooning in LF

    • Justin Upton in the two hole?

      I’m greedy

      • I think JPA+Davis for Olt will happen

        We won’t get upton unless Reyes is in the deal… I am cool with keeping Reyes.

  43. A left handed bat, a swing man and a lot of luck/good health

  44. HERE IS THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM….

    WHY DIDN’T WE JUST BID ON YU DARVISH?????????

    18 mil per year for a 25 year old stud giving up no prospects. Instead we pay buerhle 20 mil when he’s 34? makes no sense.

    • We did bid you idjut, just didn’t bid as much as the Rangers. Same as 28 other teams.
      They spent 111 million on him, he’s good but you can’t fault AA or any other GM for not spending that much considering what happened to Matsuzaka, Irabu, Igawa, Ishii …. etc…..

    • what? This isn’t an elephant in the room. An elephant in the room is something that has to be dealt with that is being ignored. There’s nothing lingering from that deal that needs to be dealt with, it’s over. Also, what FormerlyTheSmasher said

    • Hindsight is 20-20 dumb ass.

      This is equivalent to why didn’t you buy shares in Apple 10 years ago?

      Stupid comment.

  45. This is a good way to start the winter! now to fix up LF and bouya maybe another pitcher too.

    • Dickey, Torii Hunter, and Jonny Gomes, and we’re watching the best Jays team ever assembled in 2013.

  46. kman, you are Oakville aren’t you?

    The last 12 hours have disproved everything you’ve argued for the last 2 years and now you find yourself without an identity. Oakville-conspicuous by your absence, you should have thrown in a few troll comments under the old moniker.
    Kman, your logic (or lack of) give you away.

    • @Smasher. I have been replying to you in the other threads. I feel vindicated because Rogers is finally spending like a big market team.

      It’ you guy that bashed every team that gave out big contracts to players. You were the ones that never wanted “albatross” contracts.

      You were happy when AA went dumpster diving with Jo Jo Reye etc….

      It’s hilarious to see you guys throw out everything you have believed with WAR adjusted contracts, low level prospects with upsides etc….

      AA would never have been able to get Jose Reyes on last year’s payroll parameters.

  47. Emilio BonerFellatio

  48. Oh yee of little faith….

  49. Guys, don’t feed the trolls…

  50. If we can get one more solid bat at LF or DH, I think they are a serious contender for AL East title.

  51. From Geeoff Baker

    “People smartened up.

    The Blue Jays finished with 89 losses in the AL East and spent the entire year getting roundly criticized by mainstream media and bloggers alike. By season’s end, even bloggers previously defending the team’s thrifty ways had come to the conclusion that — By God, man! — some additional money had to be spent.

    Now, the Blue Jays are deciding to pay the freight again. Goodbye Moneyball, hello Money.

    Yes, yes. I know. The team is still looking for cost-efficiency and stuff and Alex Anthopoulos is a shrewd GM (he should be, he comes from my hometown), but seriously, after 11 seasons of trying to balance books and make ends meet, things appear to be changing.”

    Baker takes a shot at Andrew Stoeten & Dustin Parkes: Bloggers defending the Jays thrifty ways!!!!!

    • This has GOT to be a tremendous gesture that money is not a limiting factor, if it ever was … and those who are afraid all is spent are just too full of fear, personally, to rejoice in the larger implications of this trade. This is SCREAMING to the rest of baseball that Rogers and the rest of the Jay’s upper management is SERIOUS … if they were to stop here it might look a bit foolish. I don’t expect that now. They have put themselves well within the “one piece away” distance. AA has re-proved himself … this is not an easy trade to pull off. “Ninja juggler on a tightrope!” Nothing less.

  52. Made this trade in Baseball Mogul 2013 and traded JPA + prospects for Dickey. Signed Melky for left field. $122M.

    102 wins and a World Series.

  53. which interview last 3-4 days aa said worlin on a trade before next sign and manager?

  54. amazing night.

    if they do nothing more its still the greatest and I’m looking forward to the season starting!

    flip JPA + a reliever for a depth starter or something in LF and we’re cooking.

    i got no problem with some of the depth at the other positions (ie lind backing up EE, itzuris/bona, wherever Sierra slots in) and it will still be exciting that depending on development we may see Gose or d’Arnaud back up at some point.

    I think Alvarez will end up being a pretty good pitcher and I was really getting into Hech’s possibilities…but the team is stronger overall and it will be interesting to watch.

    shouldn’t the Jays take Villan on for starter depth? pay him the starter salary. he’s a cheaper option and it would be prudent to have backup for Johnson/Romero if health or results don’t go right. gives the option to take it easy or fix problems if something goes south rather than running an injured or struggling guy out there.

    i can totally see 1-2 more moves coming, if only because the bullpen is bursting at the seams is it not?

  55. Hey guys, what’s going on?

  56. OK ok BLUEJAYS bluejays LET’S let’s PLAY play BALL!

  57. I have to think free agents would be knocking down the door to come to Toronto now….

    If you are a left handed power hitting 1st or LF, wouldn’t you be drooling to hit between Bautista & EE with Reyes & either Bonificio or Lawrie getting on base in front you?

    • It’ll never happen, but one can only dream of Josh Hamilton taking a look at the potential of the Jays lineup and then being willing to take a little discount to play for a team that has a role tailor-made for a hitter like him — a lefty power hitter sandwiched between Bautista and EE who can play LF or jump in at CF while moving Rasmus to LF, while playing in an offense-happy ballpark.

      Nah, won’t happen. Melky (gag) is a more realistic signing, or maybe a JPA for Willingham type of trade. Even better if someone like Adam LaRoche could be picked up to play 1B/DH as he’s a lefty hitter.

      • Hamilton won’t come here…Too expensive… I was figuring a LaRoche type.

        • Just thinking… too bad the Red Sox already signed David Ortiz. If he was still on the market, think he might be more interested in jumping this way? He’d be a great fit as a lefty masher at DH who’s friends with JoeyBats.

  58. to the person above who said who will be starter 6-7 when injuries happen. jenkins mcgwire, carreno and sign acouple guys like laffey and jojo to minor league aaa with chance mlb. already grabbed couple off waivers. not to mention mcgowan. 2014 drabek, hutch and mr energy drink. this team os built to push now ad keep pushing.

    we know either jpa or buck gets flipped wilson can backup and tda in 2014.

    depending how 2013 goes the jays can package jj out at deadline if they cant resign.

    • Very worst JJ is tendered a contract and Jays get a 1st round pick for him to replace one of the prospects we gave up.

  59. Jo-Jo Reyes is outraged knowing that he has now dropped down to the 2nd best Reyes to ever play for the Jays

  60. people. bonifacio…not bonafide. at best he’s in a platoon in LF with davis and batting in front of izturis who makes a lot of contact. at least that’s how i’d build a lineup with these d00dz

  61. Jays need to sign Josh Johnson, and I think you have to do it now.

  62. How is this a steal for the Jays? Jays just gave up valuable assets for 2 guys who were FAs last year (and who therefore only cost supplemental picks and who logically have just completed the season of the most valuable seasons of their contracts) and a guy who is expiring in one year. Bonifiacio and Buck don’t really add much to the deal.

    Buerhle should have negative value to the deal, which means we overpaid for a one year rental of Johnson. Buerhle’s contract was hardly looked at as a bargain last year and his last year cost only $6M.

    • the jays just upgraded the 2nd hardest position in baseball to fill (SS) with an elite player while filling the holes they needed (top of rotation starter, and back end starter).

      yea, there is risk, but fuck…hutchison, drabek, perez are coming back next year. the bullpen is locked up and most are cost-controlled for years to come.

      it’s actually probably more prudent to worry about bautista’s wrist and power next year than anything else.

    • Nothing wrong with playing devil’s advocate.

      Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes are both elite talent that the Jays sorely needed. Buehrle will give the rotation some stability, and is a lock to give the Jays a ~4.00 ERA. John Buck is the backup catcher as things currently stand, and is much better than Mathis. Bonifacio was a 3.3 fWAR player in 2011, and put up positive value last season in limited time.

      I understand your caution that the Jays gave up a fuck tonne, but you have to give to get, and no prospect is a guarantee to make the MLB. It’s almost unlikely that any of the prospects the Jays gave up will amount to being as good as any of these guys are.

      If this deal is an indication, money isn’t as big a factor as you may perceive, and it shouldn’t be with every team getting a free $25M every season from the league.

      • beyond that, the jays just got HUGE discounts on Buehrle and Reyes compared to what they would have paid to get them here, just because of taxes.
        I mean, maybe they would have picked other guys, but for the price of 6-7 years of Grienke (probably), the jays just landed, arguably the best SS in the game for 5 years and an innings eating lefty who is what he is…and maybe you don’t like it, but the longer a guy have been in the league, the better his ERA is a predictor of what he’ll do in the future. Buehrle isn’t going to out-perform Grienke in the next 3 years, but I don’t think the gap is going to be the different between Reyes and and Buerhle either.

        I’d rather have Reyes and Buerhle than Anibal Sanchez and Yunel Escobar.

        So, it’s not the crazy slam dunk that many saw/see it as. It’s a HUGE move for the Jays with a lot of risk, but I think it’s about as prudent as you can get when you wade into free agency (even if it’s acquiring unwanted FA contracts through trades).

        I like it, and I’m counting the days until February 24th when baseball starts again.

        • My main point of contention with the trade is how 2013 focused it is. If JJ doesn’t resign, our rotation just goes back to a problem area, and we have less cash to address issues. We’d have $34M tied up in Reyes and Buerhle and Buerhle is going to be vastly overpaid. Buerhle is now too old to not predict his ERA will rise moving forward, especially in the AL east. If we can get JJ to resign I’d be happy with the trade though. I’m obviously fine with Rogers spending the money….its just about whether that was the best use of the money.

  63. Here’s the updated roster and costs as I see them.

    Figures in parentheses are for 2013 salaries in millions of dollars.
    * Denotes the arbitration estimate via MLB Trade Rumors.

    Position Players – Starters (8 out of 9): Buck (6), EE (8), Lawrie (0.5), Reyes (10), Rasmus (4.5*), Jose (14), Lind (5.15), Bonifacio (2.5*)

    Position Players – Bench (3 out of 4): JPA (0.5), Davis (2.5), Izturis (3)

    Total Cost for 2013 for 11 position players: $56.65 million
    Holes to Fill: Left Field, 4th Bench Player

    Starting Pitchers (5 of 5): Romero (7.75), Morrow (8), Johnson (13.75), Buehrle (11), Happ (*3.8)
    Relief Pitchers (7 of 7): Janssen (3.9), Santos (2.75), Delabar (0.5), Lincoln (0.5), Loup (0.5), Oliver (3), Rogers (0.5)

    Total Cost for 2013 for 12 pitchers: $55.95 million
    Holes to Fill: None or one starter if Happ ends up as depth (praying to BJ gods one more time)

    Total Cost for 2013 for 23 players: $112.6 million
    Additional Costs**: $1.5

    **McGowan

    Again for the pre-arb guys Lawrie, Delabar, Lincoln, Loup and Rogers I gave them $500k. I changed Rasmus’ arbitration number to reflect the estimate they had in MLB Trade Rumors of $4.5 million. In addition to Rasmus, I put Happ down for $3.8 million and Bonifacio for $2.5 million as per MLB Trade Rumors.

    I have Bonifacio as the starting 2nd baseman at this point. Again feel free to flip Izturis and Bonifacio if that rocks your boat a little better. Unfortunately, I have included Happ as 5th starter at this point. Still hoping that the Jays make another move for someone else like Marcum perhaps and send Happ back to the depth bench but that looks doubtful.

    Total payroll is sitting at $112.6 million for 23 players.

    Spots that still needed to be filled: Left Field, 4th Bench Spot or 8th reliever if you’re into S&M.

    • izturis > bonafacio

      banafacio should platoon with davis in lf and hit ahead of izturis.

      • I am thinking with the addition of Bonifacio that Davis along with one of the catchers are certain to be moved before the season starts. Bonifacio can do everything Davis can and more. Having both along with Izturiz kind of makes Davis redundant imo They can use the nearly $10 million in savings to do a couple of things like add a left fielder with power or get one more cheaper starter like Marcum or Villanueva and kick Happ to the pen or AAA for depth.

        • It’s actually $9 million if Buck and Davis get moved.

          • At worst Bonafacio is an awesome super-utility guy and/or platoon partner in LF…

            At best, he’s your everyday 2b with a high OBP.

            Either way, I don’t think the Jays should trade Davis or Izturis since you don’t know what you’re going to get out of Bonafacio, at least I don’t think you do.

            Again, no reason to shed contracts just for cash reasons. Jays are clearly going nuts this year, so they might as well keep spending, as Lind, Buck, and others as you point out are coming off the books next year.

        • Bonafacio and Davis are similar players (speedsters) so, it’s a good platoon, imo and you always have speed on the bench.

          Since no one wants to see Lind in LF, the backlog is probably at the C/1b/DH positions.

          • Of course my thoughts on trading Davis is dependent on them signing another left fielder. Even if Bonifacio starts a game at 2nd and you need some speed of the bench you’ll have Izturis. If Izturis starts a game at 2nd you’ve got Bonifacio coming off the bench. Who knows maybe they’ll keep both and still sign a left fielder if they go with 7 relievers as they should. However, I’d much rather see them trade Davis and get someone like Jonny Gomes who would make a much better platoon partner for Lind at DH.

          • Bonafacio and Davis are good at getting on base. Izturis is a good contact-maker…

            it’s actually ideal to have that platoon, and then a guy like izturis behind them…davis, bonafacio, and izturis are fast enough that they either break up a TON of double plays, or get a TON of first-to-third action, and then the lineup rolls over to another amazing hitter and speedster in reyes.

            if bonafacio was a guy that didn’t ahve an extreme platoon split, it would make more sense to see him as the everyday 2b and batting second in the order, but he isn’t that guy. the marlins THOUGHT he was after his 2011, but it didn’t exactly work out well in 2012…and that’s a big reason he’s headed to Toronto.

            Lawrie or Rasmus should be hitting 2nd or 3rd.

            Reyes
            Edwin
            Rasmus
            Bautista
            Lawrie
            Davis/Bonafacio
            Izturis
            Catcher
            DH/1b.

            That’s how i’d build the lineup based on what’s there today. you could argue moving the LF/2B combo i mentioned earlier down to the bottom, but as it stands, I think those are better hitters than JPA/BUCK/LIND/WILSON or any combo of them.

          • @ carbuncle

            Rajai davis is awful at getting on base. Bonifacio is better but not great. Jays need to upgrade lf or 2b somehow. Possibly by trading arencibia.

    • I’m certain Bonifacio will end up starting 100+ games without a true position. He’ll be a Zobrist/Keppinger/Sean Rodriguez/Elliott Johnson-type that starts 25+ games at 3-4 positions. Opening day, Bonifacio starts on the bench. Keeping Lawrie, Reyes, Rasmus, Izturis, and whoever the LF is all healthy at the same time is a dicey proposition. Hell, if Bautista goes down at any point, the LF probably slides to RF and Bonifacio comes in. There’s no need to slot Bonifacio anywhere opening day, but he’s going to start 100+ games and rack up 400+ PAs easily.

  64. I thought Escobar was somewhat fucked-up in the head, and I was glad to see his departure. I wish AA could have traded some of the fucked up bloggers, who don’t see this as a great day for the Jays, along with him.

  65. Um, guys. Some of you are being fucktards here. I love the prospect porn too, and one or more of the kids we gave up may end up being really good. But that is hardly a guarantee. (We’ve seen far more elite prospects bust in this town than any of the guys we’ve given up.) They gave up question marks for known quantities, and changed the perception of the organization around the league in the process. They (should) now be considered a destination for players. That’s a big deal also. More or less, they went from a mediocre team (at best) to a pretty darn good one. I too would like them to get another bat and some minor league #6/7 starting pitchers, but other than that, they’re looking pretty good. I think Happ is a pretty darn good #5 starter……..

  66. Here’s what I like most about this trade besides the players. One, it shows Rogers is finally willing to spend even if it’s just for the time being and pretty much confirms what a lot of us have been saying about their ability to spend. Two, it shows the rest of the MLB and especially other free agents that this city and organization has a very good chance of returning to what it was in their glory years. I love the comments I am seeing from national writers about the city.

    I do have some reservations about the deal but they are fairly minor. If they can extend Johnson then the reservations become almost non-existent.

    I am not really worried about the inflation contracts for 2014 or 2015. The payroll inflation looks to be about $17.95 million before arbitration for 3rd year eligible guys like Happ, Rasmus and Bonifacio. However, you can also take out roughly $12 million of that if you don’t resign Oliver, Buck and Davis, moves which might actually take place before the season starts anyway. You can also save another $3 million if you dump Lind and nearly $14 million more if Johnson decides to leave though I would happily pay that and more if he pitches like he is capable of.

    The more you look at the Jays payroll you can see AA has done an excellent job of setting things up for the coming years with the way the Jose, EE, Morrow and Romero contracts were done in addition to stocking the bullpen with cheap controllable arms. Next year’s pen should cost about the same as what Soriano turned down from the Yankees.

  67. Man, it sucks to be a Marlins fan. This is further evidence:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fof40yqaW1U&feature=player_embedded

  68. so…is marisnick a pheonix desert dog now?

  69. “Tonight feels more than anything like a real chance to break free of that for a long time. We have a real team. Real owners. Real optimism. And the only thing that’s kinda hard to believe is that it’s really for us.”

    Brilliant line.

    • this is the most confident and happy about this team i’ve been since the end of 2006.

      i think this is building towards the kind of year that the jays will really focus on things in spring that actually matter for the season instead of wins (like last year), but then explode out of the gates in april. in the early 90s, i remember being terrified looking at their spring records…and last year, like wilner (who i agreed with, for a change) i wasn’t getting all that pumped that the jays managed to smoke a bunch of AA players and Bsquads in March

  70. I’m still in shock.

  71. coming to toronto probably cost Reyes north of 20 million dollars…i bet he’s pissed.

    also, i don’t know if anyone’s highlighted this, but apparently Buehrle is owed 4million as a deferred signing bonus. So the $4million is probably to account for that.

  72. I can see the press conference now:

    AA: Thank you all for coming. I’d just like to say… John Farrell is a punk ass bitch! Fuck the haters!

    *Mic drop*

    *Exit stage left*

    The only problem I have with this move is that AA has ruined Christmas. Santa can’t possibly beat what the Ninja GM left under my tree last night.

    • lol!

      alternatively: “YOLO!”
      *mic drop*

    • In such a scenario, “Bow Down” must be played during stage exit.

    • awesome…

      —-dumb question alert—- what is the YOLO reference all about…I know I missed something during the summer with regards to this…thanks in advance for not mocking me too much!

  73. I should feel bad for the Marlins fans and people of Miami… BUT, I’ve had a ninja-trade boner raging since 6pm yesterday.

    • well this kinda makes up for the shit return we got out of miami for Bosh! LOL maybe AA can wheel & deal for the raptors aswell.

  74. Is it possible that the Jays fortunes are in any way tied to the hockey lock out? If so the NHL can lose its entire season, and the excess capital earmarked for the Leafs cand be funnelled to the Jays. This works for me just fine.

  75. Apparently there’s two Dave’s on DJFs but this one says that AA is no where near through. There were five options for trades coming out of California. This trade was the most inticing for obvious reasons but there remains other options. I think another starter is coming and another bat. Time will tell.

  76. Also, for those concerned about the money, give it up! Rogers had 12 years to save up and they’ll make a killing with this investment and be helped again by MLB and 25 m a year because of the US tv deal. The richest owners in baseball in a top 4 NA market can easily take on these contracts and still make a lot of money. Trust me on that one.

  77. I think the Jays could call Lance Berkman now and have a good shot of adding his bat at DH.

  78. I’m not trying to come off like a douchebag here…but for all of you guys staking out your lawn-chair positions on the Yonge Street victory parade route – all we may have is a very expensive, non-playoff year. Ask the Marlins, or the Heat of two years ago.
    But it’s really nice to see management finally step up and say “Fuck it, why not now?” I can imagine that season tickets sales will bump a bit, and there’s going to be a buzz going around that (as Pelley said) the casual fan will opt to come to the game on occasion. So they may make a chunk of that money back in ticket sales and merchandising PDQ.
    Now if AA can turn an excess catcher or fielder into a decent LF or bench guy, I’ll be over the moon. April…you can’t come fast enough!

    • Absolutely nobody is planning a parade, just about every single optimistic person in this thread has said that there are still a couple pieces missing for a championship team.

      Who the fuck cares if its an expensive non-playoff year? It will be an expensive non-playoff year with a fuck load more great players and POTENTIAL.

    • It’s not about planning the parade route. It’s celebrating that this corporate monolith ownership actually allowed spending to improve the club. They have a legitimate chance in the AL East now, because they have shown they will spend while also developing.

    • Wait you mean we still have to play ~180 games or so and beat the other teams out there? What is this, a sport suddenly?

      Fucks sake man.

  79. Lot of unfamiliar usernames all of a sudden.

  80. Sure there is risk here with injuries or potential underperformance but you can say that about most players in the league – and particularly the ones on the free agent market this year. These are massive upgrades from what we threw out there the last few years.

    I wonder how the negative people on this board would have reacted if the Red Sox actually made this deal. My guess is a shitstorm of vitriol. You can’t have it both ways you hypocrites.

  81. I guess, the only argument of the negative nancies around is – what could we have gotten with 160M in free agency?

    Well, you can start with 110M to Darvish. Maybe get Jackson type player for another 50M. Boom, done.

    Now, look at the haul we got…
    How can you not be excited?

    • Well, probably AA couldn’t convince Rogers on the unproven track record of a Darvish put against the financial risk of a 50M posting fee and another 50M in salary for 5 years. At least with the two pitchers coming back from Miami, there’s a proven MLB track record. Granted, there’s nothing to preclude injuries, or Mr. Murphy coming to visit for a while – but at least there’s a record to say these characters aren’t burnouts or one-season wonders.

  82. how can anyone complain? would you rather wait a few months for the season to start and then just watch below .500 bluejays baseball for the 100th season in a row? we didnt give up some of our best prospects and im more then positive that Rogers can afford this and then some. I rather have blueballs (aka injuries and bad play ruining this trade down the road) then no balls at all

  83. Arencibia and Cecil for Dickey. AA make it happen! Give Dickey a 3 year extension with a 4th option year and let Ricciardi have his best 2 1st rounders back.

  84. Not a bad trade(if it goes thru). The only one I don’t care for is Reyes.Not really a team player.Remember when he was with the Mets.Took 1 ab in the last game then pulled himself out to win the batting title.Not good.I bet Farrell is kicking himself right now.

  85. Stoeten – 

    will you please respond, in your unique way, to Cox’ column of this morning? (favourite line so far: sure we got Brandon Morrow, but it turns out we could really have used Brandon League.)

    would also love if you included that image of younger Cox with hair.

    • Cox, is a dumb ass hockey guy. he should stick to pucks, he doesn’t even do that well. Why would the jays need League, yes he is hard throwing but marred by periods of co-co chanel periods. Jays have already solidified there bullpen. If cox new what he was talking about he would know even after this and the Happ trade the jays farm is still a top 10-12 farm.

      GO back to hockey COX.

  86. Listening to Blair and Wilner just now, a caller mentioned Marcum–not that he thought he should be signed, he was shilling for Rich Harden–but Blair jumped in high and hard as soon as he heard Marcum’s name. Caller said Marcum had been mentioned. Blair: ‘not by me he wasn’t…he’s not coming here…’ A bunch of reports have had discussions around Marcum, but Blair seems to *really* dislike the guy. Anyone know why?

    Also Blair and Wilner fielded a call from a guy who thought AA had decided to take Farrell’s dream job and make him eat it and so started with this deal–after all the Sux were also after Reyes and Johnson. Can’t remember which one it was but either Blair or Wilner suggested that whoever the manager will be, he fields Romero, Happ and Morrow against the Indians for the first series of the year so that he throws Johnson and Buehrle up against Farrell. I though that was a great idea. Opening game against the Sux. Here’s the guy you wanted so bad and he’s ours. Suck it hard, John Furtive and the rest of you! It won’t happen and it shouldn’t happen. You go with your ace on Opening Day. But it would be so lovely if it did…

  87. Player 2012 WAR 3 yr avg WAR
    Jose Reyes 4.5 4.53
    Josh Johnson 3.8 5.23
    Mark Buehrle 2.1 3.2
    Emilio Bonafacio 0.6 1.7
    John Buck 1.2 1.97
    Total 12.2 16.63
    Yunel Escobar 1.8 2.66
    Jeff Mathis 0.8 -0.2
    Total 2.6 2.46

    For Johnson i excluded 2011 from the 3yr avg.
    So ya, for all that money and prospects, Jays get a net of about 9 – 14 WAR. Not too shabby. Buehrle has logged over 200 innings, every godamn year going back to 2001. How’s that for consistency and reliability? If anyone’s not happy with this trade for the Jays, seriously fuck you. Christmas came early and I don’t see why we can’t go get some more, still have Arencibia to trade and a whole lot more prospects….

  88. What an exciting day to be a Jays fan. Hats off to management and Rogers for pulling this off at the expense of the crack-addled folks in Miami; this is a fleecing of monumental proportions, in my opinion. The Jays have transformed themselves into serious contenders overnight.

    Alvarez is really the only piece that I believe will amount to anything significant in the majors.

    Time to grab my flex-pack, although for some reason I think my 500 level purchase + walk-down to 100 will be more difficult this year….

    GO JAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • argh I hate when people do this… just pay for good seats. and when people do this they always walk down when action is in play not during the end of a mid side.

  89. I said I would come on here and do a mea culpa if they finally did s’thing major and I agree that this is FINALLY, a good move for the jays and shows some commitment. As I said to potatoes the other day who was trying to calm me down I wa still hoping down deep they would do something after this stench of a season but was losing faith.
    I’ll have more of a comment after MLB approves this ( why have they got to approve it-Boston just did the same thing and more in SEPT).
    I don’t think AA is finished yet even tho he may be. Time will tell.
    I still think he either signs a LF or trades for one as I agree with a lot of writers that we need one more stick, either the LF ( preferred) or at DH.
    Choo of Cleveland is possible but he too is a 1 year person and his agent is BORAS, the same guy who got Soriano to turn down 14.8m from the Yankess for 1 yr for crissakes and GO FA so…
    I/m hoping the catcher that gets moved is BUCK as JPA is better and cheaper, and I look for one of our stockpiled, cheap and controllable relievers to be moved and don’t be surprised if it is Janssen as his value is highest now and after next year he is a FA too.
    Good job AA and I look forward to your next heist

    • Glad you’re being less of a fukstick.

      They have to approve because of the 4M coming our way.

      The problem with you and the other whiners is you think these deals are just there to be done all the time. This is a steal. Borderline criminal. This is ninja to the ninja.

      • @sons

        fukstick is not a fukstik.
        He certainly isn’t a whiner.
        If he has a problem it would be his tendency to bravely wear his heart on his sleeve. We could use many more with his passion.

  90. It baffles me that there are people that feel we gave up too much????

    I feel only Hech & Marisnick are the only items of real value we gave up (if they blossom)

    Alvarez is a #4 at best
    Escobar is a good fielding, light hitting head case
    Mathis – is waiver foddle
    DeScafini – marginal prospect at best
    Nicolino – unless I am missing something, I don’t see a top of the rotation guy – I think a
    #3 if things pan out perfect
    Hech – probably will win a gold glove or two but his best offensive season in his career
    will be around what Reyes did in his off year of 2012
    Marisnick – I could see him becoming a really good player but he hasn’t proved he can
    hit in AA yet so will he be all-star good, Travis Snider good or just another
    prospect who didn’t make it?

    As we all know – #1 SPs, #2 SPs with a ring and is a total professional & all-star shortstops all grow on trees and every team has 7 or 8 of them just looking to trade away

    • If Alvarez develops a swinging-strike out pitch that’s even close to being fringe-plus and he becomes a dominant starter for years to come.
      That’s a pretty big “if”, but no more so than many of the other “ifs” – keep in mind that alvarez was a starter in toronto all year last year, and marisnick, at the same age next year will be in AA.
      I have no idea why so many people have given up on Alvarez, or why people think if someone comes to the bigs at 20 and struggles that they are somehow a bust…i guess travis snider, but for every snider there is a mike trout who struggles and then becomes what scouts/projections foresaw. (trout obviously went beyond those expectations last year, but the point stands).

      you don’t need to sugar coat this. it has the potential to look like Colon for Sizemore, Lee, Phillips, and the rest of the mid-2000 clevelands. it isn’t as likely because, you’re right, these guys aren’t as highly regarded, but phillips wasn’t, ims, that highly regarded at the time of the trade either.

      anyway – point is: what could have been from the p.o.v of yesterday (barring the league rejecting the deal) is now in the past. the jays’ future is now tied to a new set of players and constraints. as others have pointed out: Jeff Kent for 7 weeks of David Cone probably was a bad baseball trade in a vacuum, but the results speak for themselves (ie. flags fly forever).

      • I am putting myself out there and stating that Alvarez will have a better season than Happ if both end up as starters in 2013. In a way I would have preferred to let the Marlins keep their $4 million and let us send them Happ over Alvarez. Of course if the Jays can put that $4 million towards a left fielder then that might lessen the sting a little bit.

      • Nobody has “given up” on Alvarez. Anyone with even a modicum of objectivity (or a baseballamerica subscription) knew that the good stretch Alvarez put together wasn’t for real. He is not a good pitcher. He has never been projected to BE a good pitcher, and it is extremely likely that his best days in the major leagues are already behind him.

        Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that young = has potential. People tend to think that just because a guy is a 6/10 at age 21 that means he’s on pace to being a 10/10 by age 25.

        Alavarez’s good stretch was the result of completely unsustainable peripherals (Think JA Happ’s 2009 when he put up his best year due to a historically high strand rate). Don’t get your Blue Jays prospect information from Pat Tabler and Buck Martinez.

        • again, you have no idea what you’re talking about. clearly didn’t follow alvarez’ development or read much about him coming up, let alone what i wrote which pretty explicitly says that the “if” on alvarez is big, but the “if” on the others is just as, if not, larger.

          • Dude, every BA and BP article from the past decade is available online. Show me the one that says Alvarez is a great prospect. I have subscriptions to the reputable prospect and minor league scouting websites, so don’t worry if the link you post is behind a paywall, I’ll be able to see it. :)

      • 100% disagree….Phillips was a very highly regarded prospect at the time…Cleveland got a nice haul but that is what you have to give up for #1 SPs…

        I don’t think anyone has given up on Alvarez. I like him and had no issue as a #4 or #5 SP on Toronto…I’m saying, I don’t see him as a top of the rotation guy..His ceiling is a #3 type (which is fine but not wrist-cutting when you trade him)

  91. I know its a little bit of a stretch – but as Stoeten suggested, I’m getting greedy.

    Does this make Melky Cabrera take a long hard look at Toronto, given that the Jays now feature Bautista, Encarnacion, Reyes, Bonafacio, Esmil Rogers, Louis Perez – all from Dominican Republic?

    Who knows, but man Melky would be such a sweet addition to what is becoming a crazy stacked lineup.

    Also fuck Damien Cox so hard for saying this – “One other point. Anthopoulos hasn’t really made his reputation as a particularly astute trader in his young exective career. He’s added lots of parts, and the most significant ones, Colby Rasmus and Brett Lawrie and Travis d’Arnaud, are still very much in the developmental stage. Brandon Morrow, if he can stay healthy for a season or two, is probably AA’s most significant success, although Brandon League turned out to be a player the Jays could surely have used.” WWWWHAT??? This guy is fucking crazy!

    • why do you do that to yourself? why do you read cox’s articles?

      • I shouldn’t have… I know.. what is wrong with me? I just got caught up in the trolling headline of “let’s slow down the celebrations a bit”. He’s a lunatic. I can see why someone might say lets temper our expectations – but he made none of the valid arguments why. Its incredible how wrong he got the whole damn thing.

    • Cox and his slimy, bloated fucking asshole of a colleague Steve Simmons, are nothing more than professional trolls. I’ve honestly read better and more insightful things from TSN commenters than these two. Still, I get sucked in as well. Not sure if its the hope that they may change, or that I just want more hate-fuel.

  92. It’s Melky time.

    • why everyone thinks he’s going to sign 1) cheaply and 2) a one-year deal, i’ll never know. he put up 2 consecutive seasons that were good. someone has to think that it wasn’t all PED-related, and will give him at least 3 years. if he actually DID benefit or at least himself feels as though he did from PEDs and has planned to stop taking them, i’m sure he’d take a longer term and security over a chance to “(re-)establish value” in a one-year deal.

      • You really can look at it either way especially when you consider the limited time frame of a player’s career. Taking a shorter one year or one+ option deal to get his value back could ultimately be worth far more to him if it ends up getting him a contract like the one he was rumored to be in line for before his PED troubles. Edwin Jackson, a pitcher no less, did the exact opposite of what you suggested in regards to security. He eschewed the security of a longer term deal at lower rates for a one year deal and the chance of a longer term deal at higher rates.

        • it really hinges on Melky’s feelings on whether PEDs EP or not…and/or whether he is going to continue to cycle.

  93. Fuck Rogers but Fuck my cynicism as well.

  94. Does anybody else feel its just a little bit easier to pay you Rogers cable/phone/internet bill this morning? Okay, maybe not, but at least this indicates that some of the money is going to good use.

    All I can hope is that the Jays used up all of their bad injury voodoo this past season and we get healthy contributions from all these guys next year.

    Im drooling thinking of a lineup that has a 1 – 4 Reyes, Lawrie, Bautista, EE. Not to mention 1 – 4 SP with 2 lefties and 2 righties. It almost doesnt seem real. They (SHOULD) have good OBP, good contact hitters, A LOT of speed on the bases, good starting pitching, and lets not forget about all the relievers AA has been acquiring aiding in whats hopefully to be a shutdown bullpen with a nice selection of flamethrowers.
    Am I missing something else a good baseball team needs?

    Is it April yet?!?
    And when do the damn Fan Passes go on sale for next year?

    • I wonder if Lawrie might not be better suited to hit 5th or 6th to help split up the LHB and RHB. For one thing he hit better in 2011 when he was further down in the order. The second reason is that in 2012 he turned into a fucking ground ball machine. Add to the fact that he’s right handed with a prime base stealer in front of him it might be more optimal for a left handed batter to hit second.

      I suppose it depends on what version of Rasmus and Lawrie actually shows up in 2013 and who the left fielder actually ends up being. If they can get a high OBP guy to play left he would be awesome in the 2nd spot ahead of Jose, EE Lind and Lawrie imo.

      • Ive been wondering that myself. My original comment assumes a bounce back year for Lawrie.
        But you are right, whoever hits in the 2-hole will definitely be getting a lot of good pitches to hit.

  95. ogando for JPA

    make it happen AA

    • Why trade a catcher with decent value for another damned reliever?

      • While I agree with the Jays not needing another goddamn hard-throwing-late-innings-reliever-with-control-issues, saying JPA has “decent value” would be a stretch. JPA is a very bad player and it would take a lot of conning on AA’s part to convince a team that he is still some sort of prospect.

        • A player who plays a prime position full-time, has average defense, lots of power, and is pre-arb has decent value.

          He doesn’t have a tonne of value, but he is more valuable than a reliever, which is the point I conveyed and you happen to agree with. :/

          • Yeah I came across as kind of a jerk there. Basically because I have the “JPA isn’t a future all star” discussion with my friends ever week so I am always halfway into my JPA diatribe before I even start. Sorry!

          • Lawls! I didn’t think you were coming off as a jerk. Maybe a little unrealistic, but that’s about it.

            I personally don’t think the Jays should trade JPA, solely on the basis that the percentage of hot women at the park would drop considerably.

      • He’s become a starter again, guy throws 96 as a starter too. Want

  96. Outstanding, i was going to Buffalo to watch games next year, not now !

  97. of course the most pressing and critical question is who gets dropped from the 40 man roster as we need to add 5 guys and we only cleared 4 spots?

    The correct answer is “who cares”.

    The more correct answer is McCoy (sadly he is now redundant).

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