Quite understandably, lots of folks were pretty excited by some of the words that came out of the mouths of new Jays Josh Johnson and, especially, John Buck, after they heard them on the radio, or read the transcriptions I provided yesterday.

Buck, in particular, earned a lot of new fans thanks to a glowing review of his previous stint with the Jays, and what he described as a full-on, straight-out-of-the-marketing-literature selling of the club to perhaps-reluctant teammates Josh Johnson and Mark Buehrle.

“To play for the Blue Jays– I wouldn’t have said this beforehand, but now that I got to experience and live it– it’s a cool experience,” he told Jeff Blair of the Fan 590. “I said, ‘You know how you’ve got the aura of the Yankees here in the States? Put that with the Blue Jays and times it by a whole country. I’m telling you, it’s pretty cool to have the fan base that the Blue Jays have.”

As fans who fear too many players take the opposite view, it’s a tremendously refreshing thing to hear. And I don’t doubt that he’s entirely sincere, either– though, as a cynic, I can’t not point out that he’s certainly keen enough to know who his audience was.

Unfortunately for the right-thinking among us (or at least those who read the comments here), certain fuckfaces have gotten hold of these comments, and are attempting to hold them up as some kind of validation of Cito Gaston’s insistence on letting Buck play out the string as he headed for free agency in 2010, supposedly hoping to get him to 20 home runs and a better contract in the process.

The Jays made a concerted effort to build up capital with players, they bellowed, and now it’s paying off in spades, as Buck has become a tremendous ambassador for the club! Give Cito some damn credit already!

I’m sure the thought makes a nice, warm blanket for the types who think Cito can do no wrong to wrap themselves in as they rock back and forth clutching their knees in a padded room, but let’s maybe think about this for a fucking second, shall we? Because there are a bunch of presumptions being made here that are awfully convenient to the narrative these people want to construct.

For one, apparently we are to suppose that an extra month of full-time duty behind the plate made some kind of difference in Buck’s perception of the experience as a whole– not of just the manager or the front office. Without those games it would have fundamentally changed the nature of what he experienced with the fans, we’re to believe.

And sure, Buck may have more fondness for his dealings with the people in the organization because Cito really did enable him to get a better contract as a free agent at the expense of playing time for JP Arencibia– and as much as I’m sure he’s a professional and an intelligent enough man to understand why the organization may have done that, ballplayers aren’t generally wired to have such an easy attitude about money potentially being taken out of their pockets, so I get how that may have been a thing. But that really wasn’t at all what he was talking about with Blair, was it?

Secondly, there’s a perception that any of this matters, which is completely ludicrous. Buck’s opinion, one way or the other, did not change or help the trade. Nobody acquired has five-and-ten rights, none of these players could have queered the deal, so an endorsement of the experience from Buck, nice as it is, doesn’t really have any bearing on it.

I mean, some of these are guys who voluntarily signed with the Marlins, for fuck sakes! And the Johnson clan, as he said in his own interview, were largely convinced after a conversation about the virtues of Toronto between his wife and Mrs. Frank Thomas. Frank Thomas, people!

Not only does this suggest to us that ballplayers all talk to each other, meaning there are innumerable people these guys could have spoken to– diminishing the necessity then to forge a king hell Jays ambassador out of Buck just in case– but it says pretty compellingly that players quite able to separate the qualities of a city and the qualities of particular people, or a management group. Maybe Mrs. Thomas wouldn’t have been so glowing had JP Ricciardi still been in charge, but I doubt it very much matters.

Third, it takes some pretty impressive mental gymnastics, as far as I’m concerned, to laud the organization for their commitment to doing right by players when you’re talking about a deal where Jeff Mathis was moved three months after signing an extension with the Jays.

Which isn’t to say that the Jays shouldn’t have done it, or conversely, that they should always treat players like mere chattel. It’s just… I’m sorry, the foundations of this notion that Buck’s comments somehow entirely validate Cito’s actions are pretty obviously quite flawed.

So please, let’s understand what happened in September 2010 for what it really was: a nice gesture from Cito towards a player he felt was an important veteran on the club, which may have been massaged from upstairs, as it helped maintain Buck’s status as a Type-B free agent in the Elias Rankings (though I’m being a bit generous acknowledging that, seeing as Buck, per MLBTR on 09/08/10, was somewhat comfortably above the cutoff), but took valuable playing time away from the catcher who was likely to go into the next season as the club’s starter, and very conveniently for Cito’s legacy, helped pad the club’s record in what had long been know to be his victory lap as manager.

And let’s especially stop this nonsense about to credit Cito for anything that happened last week.

Comments (149)

  1. I agree on the whole, but can’t say I care too much either way.

    • just enough to make a comment

    • Agreed. It’s a very fine analysis, but the issue is hardly worth writing so many words about.

      • people complain when he doesn’t give us any content then you complain when he does.

        • I’m not complaining about a lack of content, I’m just saying, I don’t know, I never thought this validated Cito.

          I mean, I did think about how Cito “treated him right” in this last year, but I’ve got to think AA told Buck he is going to be the backup this year, so I guess this sort of further makes Buck’s comments about the city more sincere.

          I guess my point is that the posting, while well written and with a lot of valid points, seems to be a big “Fuck you” to all of the Cito fans. I mean, who gives a shit what they think. He’s never coming back.

          • who cares if he’s coming back or not? the point being that the give should not be shat on for all the perceived ills in the world…not to mention that this kind of targetting is also *not backed by facts* ie his record with the club, even in his 2nd stint, is a positive, not a negative.

            its just dumb and indecent to badmouth the guy. legitimate criticisms? sure. but heaping on a bunch of nonsense and garbage? that’s bothersome and annoying.

      • You’re entirely right. But what am I going to do, bury all that in the comments of the last post?

        • Could have just written a paragraph in the Afternoon Snack, if there is one being processed.

          • so are these the guys we should believe that are the more sane and reasonable?? they won’t debate the issues or oppose the published opinion, but they’ll sure take you to task for what they deem worthy or unworthy content.

            ha. absurd!

        • @ Stoeten

          Who are these fuckfaces?They must all be crazy.

          You miss the big picture as your Cito hatred clouds your mind.
          The controversy was that Cito prefered the vetrans to the rookies and thus stunted the growth of JPA and Snider.
          Well now two years have passed and JPA is fine and Snider still is a AAAA player.
          The crux of the matter is the answer to the question.
          Was Cito a pigheaded guy who hated rookies to the detriment of the club or was he following the plan to create draft picks for AA and Beeston?
          Why is any of this important?
          Because it shows a thought out plan to bring the Jays back to being a contender.The process is ongoing and includes the payroll increase when the time was right.
          Somebody thought this out. Somebody said let’s aquire as many upside picks as we can. Somebody said the Jays have the ability to raise payroll to 120 mil.
          Not many club president’s or GM’s can get ownership to raise the payroll by 40 mil in one week.
          There is and has always been a plan with a goal in sight.Look at the end game.
          It bodes well as a counterpoint, for all the words used to opine that Beestons a liar and that Rogers is cheap.
          With all the negative that has been written, the future looks bright and sustainable more than it ever has in the last twenty years.
          Cito was a willing pawn in the plan for ultimate success.He was following orders.
          IMHO

          • I have to hand it to you, Radar. There are few people out there that can generate an entire post responding to their comments on a previous post.

            I can’t wait for the regular season to start! Looking forward to the Game Threat chats with you and the rest of the gang. Always enjoyable!

            Hopefully, tomorrow is a better news day.

          • Cito ain’t no pawn. He was always a loyal officer of the Blue Jay organization and now he’s a special agent/potential ninja; living out his sunset years on retainer to the same org.
            Cito’s contribution to the team and organization over the years ranks up at the top with only a handful of other people.
            Should he be credited with creating the supposed goodwill Buck now displays for the team? He had a part in it, so why not?
            Not that it’s any big deal if he doesn’t.
            Stoeten’s lone voice in the wilderness of Cito hate will always be lost in the glare coming off the shiny diamonds of Cito’s 2 World Series Champion rings.

      • yeah, c’mon stoeten let the cito hatred go

        you might be right, but its just not healthy to go on and on on and on about it

        heal yourself

        • Stoeten, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.

          Think about it man.

          • I met Cito this summer at a condo I was renting, he held the door for me at the gym and then we talked shop for 10 minutes, he was sincere and polite and a true gentleman. Not much of a manager (way too hands off), but a nice fellow, to be sure.

        • I don’t think it valid to assume he hates Cito … he hates that people praise him without merit.

          • I see, so when Stoeten began exclusively referring to Cito as “Senile McFuckface” during the last couple months of his tenure, this was a shot at Cito’s fans?

            time to re-evaluate your assumptions

            • Lol, yeah that was classic. It’s called a Schtick, it’s what’s always made this side fun. If you want cold, rational analysis then take you warm apple cider over to Parkes no-fun zone.

    • Fuck cito he had nothing to do with this trade or anything the jays are doing or what players may think of Toronto

  2. funny enough, we’re now also paying for that better free agent contract that Buck got

  3. of course buck likes toronto, he wouldn’t have gotten half the money if cito didn’t have his head up his ass.

    I think players hearing what buck said is going to take it with a grain of salt give the fact that he’ been terrible since he left, this was the team who allowed him to get overpaid.

    I’m sure he sends fruit baskets and mustache combs to cito’s house for christmas.

  4. why cant the season start now, go Jays!!

  5. Meh, AA said he really didn’t want to move Mathis but it became a sticking point with the trade so he did.

  6. Obviously John Buck doesn’t need to be an ambassador for the trade to happen. And obviously a lot of people might read too much into the comments and give Cito too much credit.

    But the fact remains that treating players with respect is good for the organization. Over the longer term, the perception of the club does improve and players, like Buck, are positive about the club. This has been how AA operates, and it is important in a game that includes the Jeffrey Lorias of the world.

    AA was rightfully hesitant to trade Mathis, just as Cito rightfully wanted to keep Buck in the line-up. I don’t think Cito should be lauded for playing Buck at the expense of Arencibia, just as AA shouldn’t have been lauded if the deal fell through on the basis of Jeff Mathis.

    But the way you guys, and yes you in particular, have shit on Cito in the past for his loyalty to his veterans has completely ignored the importance and value of respect between an organization and its players.

    • You talk about his loyalty to veterans as if it isn’t entirely self serving, and as if the players somehow don’t comprehend what type of business they’re in. It’s a particular narrative that I think needs to be destroyed, and that’s why I’m especially harsh when Cito is involved. There is a lot of good he did, but the mythologizing is pretty detrimental if you want to have a serious conversation about it.

      • It’s not myth.
        You accuse Cito of playing the vets solely because it benefits his W-L record, how do you know this? Did you ask him yourself? I doubt it since you only cut and paste and then, generally; shit on your ‘sources’. What the fuck do you know about it?
        In fact, what the fuck do you know about anything? What have you done in your life that qualifies you to opine so assuredly about anything?
        You’re just a insignificant 30-something year old baseball opinion writer who writes sarcastic bullshit about shit he’s never done and never will do.
        Even worse, you shit on other writers like your fucking Jack Joseph Kerouac Pulitzer. Writers like Griffin look like fucking Hunter S Thompson standing beside you, I’d even consider putting Rosie DiManno or Steve Fucking Simmons ahead of you but I won’t because I don’t want to be a total jerk here.
        Baseball players do indeed “comprehend what type of business they’re in”, you on the other hand do not. You have an opinion and a platform, bravo.
        Cito Gaston would eat your lunch every single day of your mundane life, just remember that.

        • +100000000000000000000000000000000000

        • I think the correct term is “drink your milkshake” and not “eat your lunch”. Also, the fact that you call steve simmons or richard griffen better writers than stoeten is kind of appalling. It just means you buy into the anti-idealistic and pessimistic bullshit that griffen can slop out every day while he floats paychecks into his douchebaggery. So fucking sorry that Stoeten doesn’t literally suck you off while he writes his articles, begging you to validate his efforts both in sucking your insignificant manhood and your ‘prolific’ ideas.

          • Oh? Is that the correct term? is it? Really?
            Thanks.

          • Yes. It is. It really is. It is. Yes. You’re welcome.

          • I guess the fact that you could recognize an analogue of the phrase I used is sufficient validation for me and,I guess anyone that thinks a Tarantino movie is the definitive material source can’t really have anything of substance to discuss.
            You should get out more often, maybe once you manage to take Stoeten’s dick out of your mouth you’ll be more receptive to opinions that are based on reason and facts.

        • goddamn, massive burn

    • hey remember when JPA was our cant miss catching prospect who was tearing up the minor leagues and everyone wanted him playing right away?

      • There were always way bigger questions. He looked like a bust until his repeat year at AAA.

      • you have the joy of hindsight to make that comment.

        the process is still important.

        • Am I wrong in remembering that AA promised Buck all the starts when he signed him, and that’s what lured Buck here on a 1 year contract, so in fact it was the front office that established that good will and not Cito. However, I have no doubt that Cito would prefer the veteran over the rook which might be a blessing in disguise by not allowing Cito to destroy JPA like he did with Green and Snyder.

      • Fuck he is good value (for the money).

        He is a legit big leaguer. The majority of prospects don’t achieve that.

      • No.

  7. Solid post. Shame it needed to be written. PLAYOFFS!!!1

  8. Forget Cito in this matter.

    AA making playing time promises to Buck, Alex Gonzalez & Kevin Gregg (I may be forgetting others) likely made a difference in them agreeing to play in Toronto. This, in turn, helped to secure draft picks and acquire Escobar.

    If there was a promise to Buck that he was the starter for the year and he barely plays in September, what do you think Buck could have said upon his departure?

    “The Jays lied to me” much like what Buehrle said about the Marlins.

    What if one of these guys had a NTC or what if Buehrle would have asked out of Toronto if not for talking with Buck?

    These are all hypotheticals, but I absolutely do think there is value in an organization keeping their promises to players.

    And I’d also suggest that playing time is not merely a managerial decision; we really don;t know what goes on behind the scenes. Heck, the Cat/Johnson platoon could very well have been Ricciardi’s baby more so than Gibbons.

  9. wow, definitely an off-season post – meandering to nowhere – is this really an issue??

    Sturm und Drang

    mellow out Stoets Me Gotes, a simple: “Cito did not impact this trade” has the same impact as the, what, 700 words used

    • I guess it was pretty fucking rude of me to put a gun to your head and force you to read it, huh?

      • no, you should just disable the comments section then I guess and go off on your own tangents without any feedback from the many people who drive traffic here – unless you just want a “Like” button for every keystroke you put out

        • Same as you have a right to your reaction, Stoeten has a right to respond, no? I think the point is that if the post didn’t interest you, you didn’t have to read it, and it’s not all that useful to discussion to let everyone know you don’t care about the article. You’re not entitled to have every single post be about something you want to read about.

      • That’s it, I am starting my own blog “DRUNKERJAYSFANS.COM”…

        :P

        ….”I wonder if that domain name is available…..”

        • There is some fucking clown who has a blog called soberjaysfans…I think I once went there for the sole purpose of calling him a piece of shit in the comments. There were no other comments.

      • +1

  10. bored, stopped reading halfway through

  11. While I generally agree with what you wrote, if I recall correctly (and this link seems to say I do: http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110202&content_id=16555818&vkey=news_tor&c_id=tor) Alex was the one who gave his word to Buck that he would be a starter for the whole year.

    • exactly. and THIS ALSO lends itself to the idea that it was a team directed strategy to play these players, and continue to play these players, that were seen as opportunities to capitalize on lower value and sell at higher value come one method or the other.

      it was a smart strategy and it worked. and co-opting that idea for the purpose of heaping scorn on Cito is pretty ridiculous and unfair.

      • +1

      • Except it’s convenient story after the fact, and not at all what Cito very easily could have said at the time.

        Sorry, but it’s meaningless.

        • “Except it’s convenient story after the fact, and not at all what Cito very easily COULD have said at the time.”

          You’re grasping at straws.

          I’m not sure why the focus is on Cito. This was AA’s strategy. If you don’t like how it played out, he seems like the one to yell at.

        • Yeah Cito and AA woulda been popular after making the annoucement that the reason they were playing the vetrans so much was to aquire draft picks.
          Really popular with players and potential type A and B free agents.
          Wonder why Cito and AA didn’t annouce it to the world?

        • All this pro-Cito/anti-Cito stuff? It’s so 2 years ago.

          • I have a hard time seeing Cito explain his rationale for playing Buck as “the higher-ups told me I have to.” I mean, he COULD have said it, but I don’t think anybody in their right mind would suggest he SHOULD have said it, even if it were 100% accurate.
            And realistically, there was no rational reason to be playing Buck at that point. So — as much as I don’t like Cito personally — I can buy that he came up with a rationale that a lot of fans could say OK to.

    • you mean like when he promised Snider would play the whole year?

    • +1

  12. fair enough – partially?

    but i think that response is still missing a huge gaping hole.

    Sure some folks are arguing that the concerted effort was to build goodwill. But that’s not the more convincing argument and is conveniently the one that’s easiest to dismiss.

    the stronger argument is that yes, its all well and good to help Buck get a better contract but that there were other factors that meant it was in the interest of AA and the club:

    namely that allowing him to continue to bat and show value in terms of results (HR being a nice stat eh?) that it would increase his value in terms of in-season trade potential or via draft picks should he walk.

    that is the equal or stronger argument and the one that you’ve neglected to address.

    • Except, y’know, the trade deadline had long passed.

      • ok. so let’s take a step back then and consider it from a wider vantage point. You’ve pointed out that for part of that time Buck was injured and they chose to play Molina. You hold this up also as ‘Cito Crazy’ move. Let’s consider both of these as a whole:

        Playing Buck: alright, so I’ll accept the trade deadline has passed. fine. but the possibility of protecting his standing in terms of what he’d bring back as a compensation in the draft still stands IMHO

        Playing Molina: 3 things here: a) upping Molina’s trade value going into the next season. b) providing a veteran catcher for younger pitchers that were playing at the time c) the impression I got from the jays at the time was that the concern with JPA as their catcher of the future was not in his bat but his defense (strange how that has proven to be the opposite to some extent, but that’s another matter). So really, maybe the perspective we should have had was that JPA was there to watch and learn from Molina and get a sense of the big league club rather than to be out there making swings. There is a reasonable argument to be made that where one needs to step up at the plate to get batting experience, that in terms of catching knowledge it isn’t quite as necessary to be behind the plate – there is a lot he could learn just from being there at the games and talking to Molina, etc.

        i think all of the above still speaks to the decision to play Buck and Molina was a considered one, a strategic one, and a reasonable one. And NOT a ‘CRAZY CITO’ one like you have continued to propose.

        i like your blog and your thoughts on baseball but the Cito thing really drives me nuts. It bugs the hell out of me and just seems like a convenient scapegoat and almost a trendy opinion that you inherited/cultivated with Pompous Parkes. It comes off like Cito hate somehow partially defines DJF identity or something. its pretty weird.

  13. Early in your post you criticize people for making some pretty wild assumptions to support the narrative that they wish to construct, but then you state the following:

    “Third, it takes some pretty impressive mental gymnastics, as far as I’m concerned, to laud the organization for their commitment to doing right by players when you’re talking about a deal where Jeff Mathis was moved three months after signing an extension with the Jays.”

    In making that point, aren’t you assuming that at the time Mathis signed the contract he was promised to be here for the long-term and that this trade somehow blindsided him. I mean, maybe he was (I don’t know), but I don’t think that we can assume that to be the case, and I don’t think that we can assume that the jays somehow did wrong by trading Mathis only 3 months after extending him. For all we know, he was happy enough to sign the contract at that time solely for the financial security it provided and didn’t really care much whether he played in Toronto or elsewhere. Or maybe AA was upfront with him at the time that there is a good possibility that he might be traded before the 2013 season even begins.

    Of course, we don’t know the answers to any of those questions, but it seems to me that you are as guilty of making unfounded assumptions in forming your side of the argument as those that you are criticizing on the other side of the argument.

    • Bang on.

      I’ve never heard of any “promise” made to a backup catcher. I see no reason for there to have been one made.

    • You could very well be right, but you understand that’s not really what extensions usually mean, right?

      It’s a small point in the overall anyway, and people disagreeing can’t have it both ways: some are saying that AA’s supposed reluctance to include Mathis shows that he felt bad about dealing him after signing an extension. Well… which is it?

      • An extension is a promise of money. It is not a promise that Mathis plays out the extension in Toronto.

        Now, if we had knowledge that AA made a promise to Mathis then you have a point.

        But there is zero proof of this and, quite frankly, what would the purpose have been to make that kind of promise to the backup catcher?

        • You don’t really extend a player with the intention of immediately moving him, do you? Obviously players know that people get traded, but when you sign a contract with a team you expect to play for that team.

          • Well, Kenny Williams did that with Santos and then flipped him a few weeks later.

            It’s not like it never happens. And with AA, frankly, it shouldn’t be entirely unexpected.

            I get that there is an inherent understanding that one typically is not moved within a few weeks of signing an extension.

            And I’m sure AA didn’t like doing it.

            But that’s a lot different than breaking a promise.

            And it’s not as though Mathis signed a below market extension. If anything, AA gave him an extra year that nobody else would have because he was comfortable with him.

      • you can’t view anyone with a contradicting opinion on an issue as a single entity.

        ie the people who think they ‘felt bad’ and signed an extension with mathis are probably not ALSO the people that say they jays didn’t want to get rid of mathis but it turned out it was required to get a big trade done. you lump these 2 under an imagined frankenstein monster that you might as well call ‘The Disagree with Stoten’

        i personally think the most reasonable interpretation is that AA didn’t want to get rid of Mathis and thought he’d be looking at a Wilson/Mathis/JPA/TDA group next year where he’d be looking to trade something off if possible. That didn’t work out as the ideal and he adjusted. sensible and reasonable.

  14. @ Stoeten, I heard Bobcat ask how much money the Marlins sent back to the Jays in the deal.

    Bob: “$4M?”
    AA: “more”
    Bob: “$8M?”
    AA: “more”

    And then Bob let it go, never really nailed down a number. Any chance that the total was SIGNIFICANTLY higher than that. Any chance the $$ was for more than offsetting the Buck contract? The way their convo came to an abrupt end on the topic, I never really got a good read.

    Should we try to solve the exact number or just let it go?

  15. I recall the Jays not having any interest in signing him to another deal in 2010 but AA frothing at the mouth for the sandwich pick they would get for him..

    • of course. because that was the plan all along.

      • And one that wouldn’t likely have been changed by playing Arencibia in September– the period we’re referring to here– if you look at the reverse engineered Elias numbers from the time.

        • “not likely”

          well that sounds very conclusive. and I’m sure in baseball you want to leave things to chance as much as possible right?

  16. *yawn*

    Truth be told, the Toronto insecurity and obsession in regards to what people in the USA think about the city of Toronto is probaby a bigger turn off than the cold climate.

  17. so basically it’s cito’s fault that we’re stuck paying buck 6 mill right now! lulz.

    • annnnnd that this strategy was the basis for why we’re getting the chance to see what Joe Musgrove is like (feel free to make up your own mind about that selection of course, its the opportunity for that pick that matters)

      • not to mention as someone above pointed out that the jays might have seen 8+ million come back from the Marlins trade…which one could consider partially off-setting that 6mil figure you’d like to hold up as the smoking gun…

        • AA said in his recent PTS interview that the Marlins ate the $4.5 mil difference on the Buck & Mathis contracts.

          So it’s a wash.

      • Hey, Musgrove helped secure JA Happ (ducks)

        • Happ looked fine until his foot exploded. Clearly the Texas game stood out to me, but he might be solid as only a 5th starter (or long reliever if AA gets another starter)

      • Because you’re repeating yourself, I’ll repeat myself: no, it’s not that simple at all.

  18. If I had to chose a summer in south Florida or a summer in southern Ontario, southern Ontario wins every time. Of course, I grew up on the south shore of Lake Ontario, so that may color my opinion. Toronto doesn’t have to apologize for anything.

  19. I propose that everyon stop giving any kind of flying fuck about Cito, John Farrell or any other previous manager for that matter…. Except John Gibbons, heh.

  20. They got Joe Musgrove for the Buck comp pick in the 2011 draft, then flipped him to Houston this summer in the JA Happ / Reliever deal.

  21. Hot dang Mr. Andy! Yer sure usin’ some mighty big wordses in this here articular. Talk about yer mental gymnastics! My brain hurts…

  22. i’ll read any article about the blue jays so thanks for writing but I am confused about cito being a part of it – we all remember it was AA who decided to honor his commitment to buck – i still have friends who are pissed about “lost developmental time” for Arencebia and listening to Bucks glowing review of the city, and I think by extension organization, I feel the same way I did back then – it’s a terrific idea for a company to treat their employees with respect – in the end doing the right thing is always a good decision – it’s just one of the many reasons I trust and respect AA…

  23. If I recall the press conference correctly (I heard that some people were late for it) AA mentioned that including Mathis actually held up the deal and it also put the deal at risk. His reason for it was that was that he made a commitment to Mathis and that going back on his word/commitment was a sticking point on this no brainer of a trade.

    This just reinforces that the Jays see treating players as best they can is part strategy and that maintaining this identity continues to be part of their plan. If you consider that coaxing potential additions to the Jays who are unfamiliar with Toronto is just a reality, coupled with how many player perceive the Miami Marlins these days (in light of Buehrle’s ‘lied to’ comments), one can reasonably conclude that this stuff adds up.

    I held the position at the time, and continue to hold it today, how JPA was used that September was actually in his, and the Jays best interest.

    Jays

    -Secure Buck as type B which was clearly part of their FO strategy of the time.
    -Have a veteran catcher receiving September call up pitchers
    -Keep their word to Buck blah, blah,blah.

    JPA

    -He had already played the equivalent of a full AAA season in 2010. The guy is a catcher, not overplaying him is of value in such a physically demanding position especially when it was clear that he would get his reps in a building year i 2011.

    -This point is the most significant and actually a catalyst in the forming of my opinion that Mike Wilner is just not a bright baseball person (considering his soap box argument at the time), is that being an effective catcher one has to acquire a feel for the art of the position. A young catcher who already got his reps in for the year could have no better introduction to this insight at the MLB level than by sitting next to Jose Molina and watching 4 weeks worth of games.

    So basically JPA watched 4 weeks of baseball with his own version of Mr. Miyagi narrating what was going on. It baffles me how more people do not see the vale in this.

    - The few games he did get into was against the best competition available at the time. Once again keeping in mind that JPA was slated to get a full year of reps (both easy and tough pitchers) the following year I can not understand how anyone cannot see the value in having him get experience against the best competition.

  24. AJ Happ wins 12-15 games this tear and I hope you haters choke on your words

  25. Who are the people claiming that this vindicates Gaston? You don’t mention any names.

  26. Somehow I think those type of September shenanigans are a thing of the past, as we look ahead. #meaningfulbaseball next Fall, boys. Forever and ever, amen.

  27. I never get why people get so up in arms about guys who get traded just after signing a contract because A) They play a game for a living B) Even Jeff Mathis Makes more money in a year than I will collectivley earn in my entire life C) They coulda got a no trade clause D) I do understand why Reyes or Johnson or Jeff Carter would be pissed. Verbal promises should matter to people, but still, the least of all problems is probably this.

  28. “and another thing…”

    -stoeten

  29. Maybe its a stretch to say “the specific act of letting Buck hit 20 hr in September” is a good thing for the team…..but as you said yourself, “ballplayers talk”

    And I thnk there is absokutely something to be said for treating players the right way (as best you can, keeping in mind baseball is a business). If you pursue that as a specific policy, and actually do it, some of that will come back to you.

  30. Holy hell, did Gaston run over Stoeten’s cat? Let it go, son.

  31. Out of curiosity does anyone know who we drafted with the John Buck sandwich pick?

  32. I just went to blue jays.com and tried to buy single game tix for april 3 vs cleveland for my btother and I cannot seem to do it. No prob getting flexpack but cannot get a single game tix. Are they not doing single gate yet-anyone know?

  33. Out of curiosity, have any of the players that were dealt to the Marlins gone public? I’d be very interested in hearing what Escobar and Mathis have to say about the deal

  34. If there’s one thing Stoeten wont stand for, it’s nice words about Cito Gaston. Regardless of the situation.

  35. Quite frankly,

    I am of the opinion that we don’t know if AA and Cito were executing a strategy or not and thus arguing this point is stupid and fruitless. With that being said, it’s equally stupid for Stoeten to sit here and pretend he knows that they weren’t.

    Building capital with players is important in my estimation. These comments by Buck may not be a direct product of what was done in the past, but I think it’s safe to say that the handling of John Buck at least played some part of it.

    That’s all. Not arguing either side.

  36. What you don’t like the logic of 10 year old kids.. me either. And honestly who the fuck cares what reason Buck has to say anything.

  37. I do not miss those uniforms one bit.

  38. You know Stoeten realizes he got owned when he devotes an entire blog post on a comment from a poster who made him look stupid.

  39. Brad Arnsburg is available should Gibbon wish to make a pitching-coach change.
    (Yes, I’m trying to change the subject.)

    • Wow, Isabella, you’re better than a cold shower!
      You stopped it dead in it’s tracks.
      Impressive.

  40. it’s kind of strange that the discussion of this psuedo issue has gone this far at this moment in the Jays history

    AA and Gibby are good guys and that will be a positive thing for the organization. They will make shrewd moves, the hillenbrands of the world won’t like it, but that’s major league baseball.

  41. this has been one of the best fuckin weeks in Blue Jays history, and you fools are still arguing over Cito Gaston? Really?

  42. Still sitting here wondering if the people who criticize stoet’s choice to write this article in the first place due to the message it delivers are doing exactly what they criticized stoet’s of doing in the first place: voicing their own opinion.

  43. Andrew Stoeten. The small man of the internet. Unable to admit when he is so obviously wrong, and doubling down with more bullshit.

  44. What’s your bidding Stoeten? Cito lords over all other jays managers. Hopefully the jayers giver hard this year and Ted’s place is full of more bandwagon jumpin ladies (pound meat) too! You know the Bevvys won’t be any cheaper because Aramark and Rogers enjoy mucking our collective bin. To hate on Cito for not tanking shows the bitter outlook (shared by many Toronto fans) that we have begun to take after being dusted. It was so pain. So pain… And the Rothschild own the MLB so u know that we are all just really at their whim in terms of the eventual world series champion. Just look at it close brah mad illuminati bruh bruh. And jose Reyes and Bautista are part of the illuminati yo so we goodler

  45. People are overlooking that Aaron Cibia didn’t even get to play when Buck was out with his injury. he had that epic debut then rode pine for Jose Molina most of the time. What good will/,value was that providing… pure cito shenanigans

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