Forecast Calls For Hale

As we’ve learned on more than one occasion this off-season already, most clubs deal with the employment status of members of their coaching staff on a year-to-year basis, meaning that– thanks to an abnormally late-coming managerial search– guys like Bruce Walton and Don Wakamatsu remain in limbo, waiting for formal offers to be part of the Jays’ coaching staff next year. In Wakamatsu’s case, however, such a call may not be coming, as the Baltimore Orioles had similarly yet to finalize their staff, and it appears as though DeMarlo Hale is headed to take Wak’s now-former position as the Jays’ bench coach:

Roch Kubatko of MASN is reporting it as well, explaining that “Hale was the last remaining unsigned coach, and the Orioles made him an offer to return next season,” but the Jays will hire him “as their bench coach, according to two industry sources. One source said Hale could receive a three-year contract.”

If true, that’s certainly some job security for Hale, who had served as bench coach and third base coach for Terry Francona in Boston, prior to joining Buck Showalter in Baltimore, after having also worked under him in Texas. And it’s especially interesting, given that John Gibbons reportedly only received a two-year deal, plus an option. (Again if true.)

Hale was rumoured to be in the running to replace both John Farrell this time, and Cito Gaston the last time the Jays had a managerial vacancy, with Alex Anthopoulos electing both times to go with a more MLB-experienced skipped– though Hale certainly has paid his dues at lower levels, having managed a pair of second place teams in the PCL in two years in the Rangers organization, winning a Midwest League manager of the year award, managing Baseball America’s Minor League Team of the Year in 1999 while at Double-A Trenton, then in the Red Sox organization, among other experience, as noted on his Orioles.com bio page.

Most importantly, as the O’s third base coach it was Hale’s duty to work with the infielders, says Kubatko, meaning that by acquiring him the Jays have now a well-respected replacement for their own long-tenured infield instructor and third base coach, Brian Butterfield.

Butter, of course, jumped to Boston– reportedly, at first, when it became clear that he wasn’t going to be considered as the Jays’ next manager, though he suggested this week that he was, in fact, in the running right up until the end, and accepted John Farrell’s offer to hedge in case Anthopoulos again looked elsewhere.

This does not necessarily mean the end for Wakamatsu’s days on the Jays’ staff, but if he were to stay it would be in a reduced– or at the very least different– role than he held last season. Wak seemed to be well liked, and has an excellent resume in his own right, so perhaps we should be disappointed if that turns out to be the case, but… fuck if I know whether he or any of the coaches were any good at their jobs or not.

Kubatko suggests that Buck Showalter originally had wanted Wakamatsu on his staff, so maybe they end up in an inadvertent swap. I guess we’ll have to wait and see. But it seems a fine pickup, given the loss of Butterfield and Hale’s experience with the infielders.

Comments (340)

  1. Hale to the chief.

  2. so what exactly does a bench coach do?

  3. I guess this is good.

    Stoeten, you are doing a great job. We appreciate it.

  4. thanks for the cap tip stoetes, pretty sure i saw one

    • The fuck do you keep talking about?

      • you know how you give credit to people who tell you whats going on

        i am returning your cap tip stoetsey

        thanks man

        • Cap tip for what? Posting about this story in the comments below and then pretending that I first saw it there because I’m supposedly constantly refreshing this nonsense?

          Sorry, I have Twitter dude.

          • well, not criticizing but you were a bit slow out of the gate eh

            anyway i accept your belated tipping of the cap

            is it ok to call you stoetsey?

          • that’s not gonna work, Stoetsey is reserved for the groupies.

          • C’mon Stoeten.
            Be a pal.
            Give him a cap tip,fuck it,give him two or three.
            It can’t hurt that much.

          • dudes…take it easy on ol’ Stoetsy; he’s getting rattled. Great job Stoetsy, sorry about the burn job i gave you for shitting on Cito (again), it had to be done.

    • whats funny is that another commenter on the post ‘broke’ the news 10 minutes before you..

      • Ten minutes?! What…about the length of time to, oh I don’t know, write the fucking post that he did to put the hiring into context and explain what this could mean to other Jays staff. I.e. the additional info that us Jays fans should appreciate hearing as part of the news item itself?

        Fuck the 10 minutes…keep up the EXCELLENT work Stoeten…fuck dc and MWBS…fucking no talent hacks…

        • you fuckin moron,

          i was talking to the commenter who was saying he wants his cap tip.

          maybe learn some reading comprehension and context before you start handing out insults and handjobs. fuckin tool

  5. I hope Hale and Gibby keep the infield shifting intact for this coming season. I really liked the way it screwed with some of the hitter’s heads.

    If it’s true they gave him a three year deal that’s really interesting. Obviously it wouldn’t stop them for making a change if it warranted it but that sure is some incentive to get him. The Jays must really think highly off him.

  6. As long as Lind likes him……..

  7. Damn! JR is dead! RIP Larry Hagman.

  8. lol There you go folks, Evan Grant – yes the guy that voted for Young as MVP last year, has predicted the Rangers will start the season with Ricky Romero and JPA on THEIR roster. Missing from the Rangers roster is Kinsler. Go figure. Tinfoil must be in short supply in Texas these days.

    http://www.extrabasehit.com/2012/11/predicted-texas-rangers-roster-includes.html

    • I would do that deal.
      However that would probably be on the contingent that another starting pitcher being acquires though.

      • Hard to say without knowing the payroll parameters. Surprisingly Kinsler is 31 this year which struck me as kind of old. He always seemed like he was 27 or 28 to me, go figure. His contract might turn into a beast. The Rangers are on the hook for $82 million over the next 6 years. By itself it’s not bad, maybe even cheap, in $/WAR terms if you look at what he’s done historically but you have to wonder if 2012 was the beginning of a serious decline for him. If you look at his adjusted numbers for park effects they are not as good as the raw numbers would suggest. Still he’s a pretty amazing player especially for 2nd base.

        The Jays would be taking on about $6 million more in payroll before adding a replacement pitcher for Romero.

        • Yeah, it depends on how much the payroll can be stretched.

          But in a vacuum, I’d do it.

          I can’t give Romero much, if any, positive trade value after last year. And considering I’ve proposed numerous deals involving JPA, I obviously don’t consider him to be all that valuable.

          Imagine an infield of Lawrie, Reyes, Kinsler & EE. Deadly!

          • firstly, you have 2 second base options in house.

            secondly, trading romero after 1 down year is the absolute dumbest thing our GM could do.

            after the 2011 season, given both their contracts, Romero was more valuable than kinsler.

          • @ dc
            +1

    • tip of the cap in night manimal’s direction

    • Hmmm interesting. Not crazy about it. For arencibia+, sure, but no romero. I doubt the jays would have enough payroll for kinsler anyways. Then i guess the plan would be to trade rasmus for pitching and put boni or gose in CF. However,Trading rasmus would really deplete the jays power on the left handed side so I doubt AA would do things this way. We’d have to rely on good old adam lind (sigh) so dont see it happening this way.

      • I wouldn’t send Romero anywhere. He had a shit 2012, but I’m holding my breath for a big bounce back this year. It won’t hurt that he’s got Morrow back this year as well as Buehrle and Johnson.

    • I could see(and I can’t really see Kinsler dealt) Rasmus, Happ, Jp and a high Sp prospect for Ian Kinsler. This deal would hinge on the Rangers getting Grenike, putting Ogando in the rotation, Happ would be the long relief. Rasmus would play centre no Hamilton. We’d have to have a Sp signed. Rangers don’t need Romero but could use Jp and Rasmus.
      Don’t see this happening. Kinsler would be yet another player with Turf concerns but what a talent.
      Anyone else Hear the Argos might move to another stadium after this year here’s hoping the Skydome will one day have natural grass. Beeston doesn’t shy away from the question he wants it too. Of course concerts would have to leave but there,s the Air Canada centre which they now co own for that revenue stream.

      • I’m not sure why people don’t get that the higher the salary a player has left on their contract, the less they’re worth.

        Kinsler is a good player, but he’s about to be paid like a great one, with his numbers declining..

        Personally I’ll keep bonafacio at 2B and worry about the holes at DH, Catcher and the rotation first.

        • Funny how everyone is now talking about guys like Wright and Kinsler being Jays, man things have changed in a hurry with this franchise.
          I was caught up in Kinsler becuase he’s my probably my favourite player just becasue of his production and postion. Your right Sp is still my number one concern and platoon for Lind. Happ is fine for the old Jays but now after the amount of money Rogers is spending and AA and Beeston saying the team is built to win, I don’t see how Happ can be your fifth guy. Great 6 man and great four or five on a non contending team but if we’re serious about winning and now we are, we should look into McCarthy and Marcum and even Edwin Jackson to see what their market is.

          • signing mccarthy would be icing on the cake.

            if you compare his stats, he’s basically be as productive as JJ the last 2 seasons.

            if he can stay healthy he’s awesome. and hes an awesome person with a hot wife.

          • I like Dempster as the maple icing on the beaver tail.

            he’d take a couple of years and a vesting option or something like that

    • Evan Grant was the first journalist to report that the Rangers had gotten Darvish. At least three days before Bruce Arthur posted that we didn’t get him. At the time we were all ‘Grant’s a schmuck. What does he know. He’s just a homer for the Rangers’. But he was right…

      • agreed, but a broken clock is also right twice a day

      • Wellthen, I guess he deserves a cap tip

      • ok lets straighten this out

        bruce arthur did not break that we didnt get darvish

        on the night the darvish derby winner was announced, by multiple tweets from multiple sources not including arthur, arthur wrote an article entitled something to the effect of “Do Not Be Surprised If Jays Do Not Get Darvish”

        this was an awkwardly worded guess that had nothing to do with announcing what happened to darvish

        • @ MWBS

          No. It was the night before that. 12/18/2011. The news broke the next day. Arthur’s piece was entitled Toronto Should Be Surprised If Blue Jays Land Yu Darvish. It laid out all of AA’s reasons for not making a serious play for him and was the first piece to suggest we did not get him after multiple sources from other teams said we had.

          Here is the article. It clearly comes out of a conversation with the front office who were belatedly realizing the pr nightmare at hand.

          http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/12/18/toronto-should-be-surprised-if-blue-jays-land-yu-darvish/

          The news broke the next day that he’d gone to the Rangers.

          I think you owe me a rip of the cap…

          • unlike stoetsy im always happy to cap tip/crotch grab where appropriate, but youre wrong

            arthur article published 8:48 pm dec 18 when we were all waiting to hear, hell wilner had a stupid show that night devoted to the announcement, at 11:11 pm dec 18 it was announced (i remember the time because that was/is darvish’s jersey number, over twitter i believe first by darvish’sagent, we all found out that night, hours after arthur’s article came out

            and seriously, read that fucking article, arthur obviously didnt know anything because it was a complete fucking hedge, head to toe, if he knew something he would have said it unequivocally

            so no cap tip, no crotch grab or spit, im giving you a jon farret/ rauch type take down

            and im the fucking farret

          • Not gonna let this one go. That article was the first to question whether we had Darvish after pages of crap written by other TO journos that we did have him. And it was correct wasn’t it? He didn’t say we didn’t have him. He warned us we might not get him. He was right and it was ahead of the announcement.

            And fuck off with that Farrett shit. You aren’t the Farrett. You are another tiny little ferrett with a comb-over.

          • you really should let go of this isabellareyes

            arthur did not claim to have a source named or unnamed, he did not claim to have confirmed whether or not we won darvish, he did not even make a clear prediction as to whether we had darvish

            all arthur said was it would be consistent with the way rogers did things that we didnt get darvish and therefore he didnt think we should be surprised if that was the result

            it was a contrarian viewpoint that he hedged to the point of making it meaningless to save face if he was wrong

            he didnt break a thing about darvish, this is just a myth which ive seen you express before, no doubt innocently, because usually you have good posts

  9. Chad Mottola for President!… err- hitting coach!

  10. I was hoping for a ernie whitt reunion.

    not.

    maybe wak can move to 3B..

  11. Am not dead am right here

  12. Ok since I am so bored tonight one more post about a potential trade from a Mets perspective.

    http://risingapple.com/2012/11/19/mets-potential-trade-target-j-p-arencibia/

  13. Havent read a lot about AA’s payroll comments during the press conf. He stated that he had to get permission to go beyond payroll levels to complete the Marlins trade. So after that he goes and signs cabrera. So what exactly do we read into that? Thye exceed payroll and then go further all in? Or are they simply spending the cash received from the Marlins? Are they at their payroll ceiling or can they absorb more now that they have come so far? No point going all in and keeping a one chip back, right?

    • I think they are basically at their ceiling but am hoping to be surprised.

    • I think Rogers and the Jays do things step by step. The Melky signing was cheap with high upside so the signing got approved. I could see Rogers giving the ok to another addition like that. I doubt that they would be willing to take on a big contract at this point though, unless it absolutely put the Jays over the top. Of course this is all speculation, but I get the sense that Rogers does not give the Jays a hard cap, but instead looks at each significant addition and determines whether the risk/reward is worth it.

  14. Does anyone know if Hale can speak spanish? Jays need a spanish speaking coach with all the latinos on the roster now.

  15. So Hale as bench boss

    1B-Fasano
    3B-Wakamatsu

    Walton pitching
    hitting -murphy & mottola

    • That sounds hot.

    • Well let’s just say that if he were a manager in the corporation I used to work for, and your team ( in this case the pitchers) collectively ranked third to last or second to last 3 years in a row, you would get the “royal toe” bye bye
      Walton has not progreesed in the role and while we have had deficiencies in the SP dep’t he doesn’t seem to be able to get them to the next level-hell any level at all.
      No, it is time for a change of direction and I believe Walton s/b shown the door

      • Agreed, but Morrow has progressed under him. If Hentgen would just grow some balls and take a bigger role, he would fit great.

      • comparing the business world to the baseball world is just stupid.

        Walton can’t go out their a pitch games for these guys. The team was ranked so low in most pitching categories because of a lack of talent, which is the GM’s fault and bad luck, which is god’s fault

      • HOW DARE HE NOT TURN VOLKSWAGENS INTO FERRARIS! WHAT KIND OF USELESS SHIT IS HE???

        • @Stoeten

          You can certainly turn an original VW Bug into a Porsche. The old 911 engine fitted perfectly. It used to be fun to see guys’ faces on the freeway when old Herbie there went roaring past them @ 120 mph.

          A good mechanic can do that. Just sayin’

          • Results are all that matter in sports and for for that matter in corps too. E’where except working for the gov like Mcguinty where there is no accountability.
            No, if Walton can’t get results, then how many years to u give him-???
            Why do the managers get fired, ususally?-Lack of results even if they can claim the talent is poor and most people know it. No, it is time for a different approach and time for Walton to go try kite flyin

          • @isabellareys. Thanks for the lol. I am so hungover I couldn’t decide between a sausage mcmuffin or a bullet. Going with the mcmuffin now!

          • @Jonathan Johanson
            woah man, your sooooo drunk
            please take the bullet next time

  16. I’m not sure why people are still worried about 2nd base…

    Adding Reyes over Escobar is a huge offensive upgrade, Lawrie should be better as well. and KJ set the bar so low last year, that really bonafacio/izturis can’t be any worse.

    in 2011, bonafacio had a .335 wOBA and a.360 OBP… sure he has no power.. but with melky, bautista, and ee we don’t need him to have power.

    • If the old baseball addage is true: “strength down the middle wins championships” then we have a problem here. BJ’s don’t have a clearly defined #1 second baseman and that will be a problem if we are to win the Series. If you just want to make the playoffs then its ok. So I’d like to win, so 2nd is still a problem

      • dumbest response ever.

        last 3 years 2B with world series rings

        Marco Scutaro
        Skip Schumaker
        Freddy Sanchez

        • Winning teams don’t have to have 1 through 9 as guys who will put up a 800+ OPS. Although Scutaro played like Rogers Hornsby in the world series so the production they got from that position went a long ways to helping them win that title.

          I think the biggest hole in the lineup is at DH. Lind in the 5th spot for another year could make or break the team.

  17. If it’s a rumour it probably isn’t true, so we’ll see what happens.

  18. Hey stoetsy where is my cap tip for predicting gibbons as manager?

  19. Hey, I predicted Gibby as manager too!

  20. Andrew

  21. Licks

  22. Dustin’s

  23. Cock

  24. Me too!

  25. Hey Stoetsey, where is my cap tip for reading your blog.

    Enough with the cap tips fellas. If you have to ask for one, its likely not deserving.

    • It happens quite often that somebody posts a link in the comments section and Stoeten will have a post about it a little later.
      IMHO, Stoeten has freely acknowledged credit when credit was due and has had no hesitation in doing so.

      Although I wish he would acknowledge me more because it’s all about me and the positive reinforcement I get really helps in my evolution into the egotistical bastard I desire to be.
      Nah, i don’t really give a shit.
      I just like talkin baseball.

  26. Josh johnson dad was born in Calgary and JJ grew up in Minnesota. It might be easier to extend him than I thought at first glance. If I’m aa I tell him to wait until spring to see how he feels about the team but I would be having all the top people on him to decide if he is worth backing up the brinks truck for.

    • I think. The closer they get to spring, and the further they get into the season, the harder it will be to extend him. He gets one step closer to free agency and the sound of those cash registers start ringing in his ear.

      Also, his agent mentioned initially that the Jays would be having to ‘share the risk’ or soemething like that. The closer the get to spring, the more accurately his health can be evaluated and predicted, and the lower the risk for him waiting it out.

      Just my 2 cents.

    • My Maple Boner is rising.

      What’s the source on Johnson’s dad being a Canadian ?

  27. With losing Butterfield and Lovullo, it’s nice to get a coach who is similarly acclaimed.

  28. For all you LInd lovers who are clinging to his Silver Slugger as a way to validate him,
    here’s a list of the shit that also owns a S.S.

    Remember :

    Joe Crede
    Morgan Ensberg
    Jose Vidro
    Michael Barrett
    Melvin Mora
    Jack Wilson (career .366 slg.)
    Johnny Estrada
    Bill Mueller
    Damion Easley
    Jeff Blauser

    Lind is irrelevant unless he’s part of a platoon.

    • Jose Vidro owned as an expos so I don’t know what you’re on about.

      • Yea, Vidro was lifetime .300 hitter almost. Mueller lifetime .370 OBP. Terrible comparison list.

        Alot of those guys are much better than Lind, which is so sad. Crede and Ensberg were better defenders despite some similar offensive skillsets. Mora had a solid stretch of about 5-6 years where he was better than replacement level. Jack Wilson’s defense alone makes him more valuable than Lind.

        Estrada and Barrett are the only guys on that list equally as shitty as Lind, the rest are either solid or had a string of above average years before becoming mediocre.

        • And Dildo, who cares if some of those guys were better defenders? I’m not arguing about D. You completely missed the point.

      • Video had no power the last few years of his career which flamed out early. Same for mueller…etc

        Silver slugger is for a SLUGGER. Not for us who hit singles or get on base.

        Lind was a hit-only skill set and can no longer hit.

        Enough said.

  29. I don’t care if they get a bunch of cats to fill the other open coaching positions.. We can’t lose with this team :)

  30. Wow. What has happened to our comment community? You trolls have ruined this.

  31. Sign Francisco Liriano for a one year incentive laden contract, or is it a bad idea?

  32. Jeff Passan is saying the Royals are dangling super prospect Wil Myers for a pitcher to bolster their staff. We were hearing about them possibly being interested in trading Myers a couple weeks ago.

    Would love to get that guy, he’s probably major league ready now. Thing is we’d have to give up at least one of our big league starters right now.

    • If he’s major-league-ready now, why isn’t Kansas playing him?

      • He split last year between AA and AAA and mashed. Since they were out of it in the 2nd half, they probably didn’t want to start his service clock. But he’s going to be in the majors in 2013, for somebody.

    • I hear people saying Will Myers is being shopped at MLBTR but Myers as far as I no is not represented by Scott Boras and because of that reason alone I think Hosmer especially with Butler signed will be shopped, the royals can not afford to sign a Scott Boras Client unlesss Hosmer want’s to stay. Hosmer and Mike M 3B are Scott Boras.
      Having said that though Boras preachs one year deals and will talk his client out of a contract that buys out a free agent year.
      Boras has done extensions before but it’s very rare, look at the Rays they extend everyone yet Jeremy Hellickson is not signed.
      If the Royals are interested in extending Hosmer and Mike M without a free agent year bought out, and only a two arb years maybe tehy can do it, and if they can do that then Myers could be moved but he’s so cheap having not played a MLB game and the Royals need cheap players… especially with Guthrie backloaded deal.

    • For me the real interesting aspect of the article was the value being put on center fielders. When you’re talking about the kind of worth those guys have you just have to look at the Jays and see how “rich” they are even after Marisnick got traded. Technically the Jays have 4 guys at or near the major league level that would be at least ok in center field with Rasmus, Gose, Bonifacio and as a last resort Melky. When you look back and see where AA went and made the moves to acquire Rasmus, Gose, Bonifacio, Melky and the depth they’ve got at catcher you really begin to see just how good of a planner he’s been. By themselves those moves might not have been earth shattering but they arelooking pretty damn good now.

      I know some people were talking about a Rasmus for Dickey trade straight up on Twitter yesterday, but I wasn’t totally sure about it myself. I guess if you looked at it from the built to win now perspective, it’s completely doable, especially if you could extend Dickey. If you were able to do that, it would give far less credence to the other side of the argument of one year of Dickey for two years of Rasmus.

      Of course if you’re going to spend $10 million a year on Dickey anyway, you could always argue why not just sign someone like Haren, McCarthy or Marcum and keep your center fielder. Ultimately you need to ask yourself would Dickey+Gose be worth more to the team than a Rasmus+Free Agent Starter combo+depth combo?

      Personally I kind of like Rasmus’ power option over Gose right now since the Jays lineup has gone a little speedier and less powerful overall. If Lawrie ends up showing more of the power he had in 2011 and the park effects boost Reyes and Melky like I think they will, then maybe it’s not such a concern but you’re going to have to wait to find that out. Who knows, maybe if the Jays bring a 2nd hitting coach on board he might be able to help Colby reach his potential at the plate.

      As for Myers to the Jays, I don’t see it happening at all. KC is desperate for top notch starting pitching and the fact that they would even contemplate moving Myers at all just shows you it’s got to be that and nothing else. The Jays would have to give up someone like Johnson or Morrow to get someone like Myers imo.

  33. @bluejayway
    However I see the royals and jays doing Romero for Hosmer, they’re REALLY separate for pitching

    • I’d Probably do that trade, but we’d need to sign or trade for another SP.
      This doesn’t really count for anything, performance is everything in baseball but I love how Ricky has really embraced Toronto.
      Who else would try to trade for Hosmer and at what price in terms of players or prospects would you give up for him?

    • Romero, Lind and cash? I’m not sure why the Jays would trade Romero, but if the Jays had massive rotation depth, that could maybe work.

      • if you’re going to move Romero it can’t be for a 1B. it just cant.

      • I’m with you on not seeing why they’d trade Romero. Yes, he was shit last year, but that’s basically an outlier. More importantly, while the rotation has been improved greatly, there’s not enough depth there that Romero wouldn’t be a big downgrade. Plus in this specific case we have no need for Hosmer. I don’t know much about his pedigree, but two years of MLB numbers don’t indicate he’s worth a 2-3 MLB starter.

        • Hosmer was a HUGE prospect just in the last couple years, but it just appears to be a rumour/fantasy trade someone made up, so… whatever.

  34. Love this blog. Kinda a noob but gotta say its pretty shitty to read intelligent people slagging each other over nonsense. Thanks for the good stuff though.

    • Got a feeling there will be a lot more noobs ( newbs?) visiting the site.
      First welcome.
      Second,part of the appeal of DJF is the free flowing exchanges from ALL people to the debate about the Jays.Those debates that denegrate into slagging each other shows the passion for their point of view.
      Third,It’s because of the variety of people that comment that makes it interesting. You get different points of view and that educates others.There are commenters who are sabermetricians,former players,fantasy league participants,old school guys,new school guys and so on.
      If you’re looking for a regurgitation of the same old stuff then DJF isn’t for you.
      Many of us watch the game from different viewpoints and by seeing the other viewpoints expressed, we learn more about the game which increases our enjoyment. At least for me it does.
      With the passion,comes some slagging.
      BFF and I, have had our battles, but I still respect his knowledge.Just not always in the way it’s delivered.I’m sure there’s a ton of people who think I’m full of shit too(* cough*Stoeten* cough*).
      Maybe all of this is why you love the blog?

  35. Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
    RT @masnRoch: Told DeMarlo Hale has accepted bench coach job in Toronto. Big loss for #orioles

    • Fuckin A Straight.
      How does AA get everything he wants?
      I don’t know jack about Hale except for what I’ve read in the managerial search.
      Seems like a well respected guy throughout the league.
      He’s somebody who knows his shit and I’m not a big fan of Wakamatsu.

    • I sure hope Hale was the reason for the Orioles going randomly apeshit last season.

  36. Kudos to poster JustSayNo on Mlb fourms, found it randomly but It’s Josh Johnson talking about becoming a Blue Jay. .

    http://www.teamradio.ca/podcast/team_interviews/Josh_Johnson_with_BMac_and_Taylor_Nov23rd~.mp3

  37. In the first segment of the 6 o’clock hour of Prime Time Sports, they were talking about the Argos, and Stephen Brunt said he ‘guarantees’ the Argos are going to have issues with the Rogers Centre going forward because Rogers is going all in on the Jays, and will probably look to put natural grass in there in the next couple years.

    Just speculation, but Brunt seems more plugged in than anyone about Rogers plans. He’d been saying he thought Rogers wanted to make a big splash this offseason since the 2012 season ended.

      • The Bobcat also speculated recently that the Argos have been looking for another place to play. Now that Bell and Rogers own the Air Canada centre, concerts and that revenue stream can go into air canada centre and if UFC returns, transfrom the Skydome for that once in a blue moon avenue.
        Rogers ddn’t own the Air canada centre, so they were always using the skydome for events they can now move.
        Giant concert in BMO field which they now co own as well.
        I could see the Skydome, possibly even in 2014 having nautral grass.

    • @James.

      That’s vey interesting. The Jays have invested 100 million in Jose Reyes’s which is 4 times whatthey paid for Sktdome stadium.

      It would be worthwhile for the Jays to put real grass into the stadium so that it would not be an impediment to attracting other free agenst & preserve the health of existing players.

      I beieve the argos could be moved to BMO field or York University or Varsity stadium.

      • So it can’t be converted to a football field if there’s real grass? Does that mean Bills can’t play either?

        • The Blue Jays dont play during Football season

        • Yeah, I think the football team would beat up the grass too much to have the Argos and Jays play on it.

          The Bills have just been playing one game a year after the baseball season is over. The Argos overlap with the Jays from July to the end of the year. So it would be an issue there.

          • Oh okay! Never thought of that, THANKS!

          • @EastTOJays

            I agree Varsity isn’t a fit, but why not BMO?

          • @that guy

            At BMO they would have to tear down the one end to make it big enough for CFL.

          • McCowan has been mumbling about a new stadium to built at York U for the Pan-am games that MAY be used by the Argos afterward.
            A pemanent grass field at RC is very difficult without extensive renos due to the drainage and sunshine needed for real grass.
            From what I’ve read anyways.

            • It can be done though RADAR. But having Args play from July thru now wouldn’t work. They can grow gass indoors too, with special lights. It’s all just money for Rogers!

              • Lol the Argos would only move into bmo if the soccer team contracted (highly unlikely, but a non zero chance that occurs)

          • It was more an Argo’s story than Jays, but Brunt was being overly negative. Buffalo’s deal expiring soon, no will to build a new football stadium cause Argo’s can’t fill the dome, add the grass at Rogers and you have all but kicked the Argo’s out, to the betterment of the Jays.
            Don’t think Brunt is right though… Ti Cats playing in Geulph while they build a new stadium for 2014, should rejuvinate Hamilton and why would Argo’s move just cause of the turf?

          • @birddog

            The Argos wouldn’t move because of the turf. Rogers would kick the Argos out, because they’d screw up the playing field for the Jays.

            If Rogers tells the Argos that the dome is now baseball only from april to oct (which, no offense to the Argos, I do hope for), they would be kind of fucked.

            The best solution for the Argos would have been if the new TiCat stadium was built somewhere between Toronto and Hamilton and both teams shared it, in my opinion. The Argos are too much of an afterthought in this city for anyone to build a new stadium for them at this point.

          • Hey James, sorry I meant that the Argo’s beating up the turf wouldn’t be enough to get them kicked out of Rogers Centre. There’s no interest in building a new stadium for 8 or 9 home games a year so, increase the rent to re-sod after games or what ever makes economic sense. BMO? I dun’t know if the logistics work

          • @birddawg

            “I meant that the Argo’s beating up the turf wouldn’t be enough to get them kicked out of Rogers Centre”

            Why wouldn’t it be enough? Why would Rogers spend the money necessary to resod the field in their stadium for someone elses team? They have no stake in the Argos.

            I suppose maybe they could if the Argos paid for it, but I don’t think the team really has any money, as they apparently have just been kept alive by David Braley for years.

            If putting grass in the dome improved things for the Jays, I don’t think they’d be particularly worried about having to kick the Argos out. To be fair, why would they? They’re the landlord, not the owner.

          • Don’t have the numbers in front of me but how would’nt the Operating and Maintenance costs associated with the turf for the Argo’s be more cost effective than building a new stadium,. Again maybe BMO could be used but if not then what?

        • That makes it tough forgot about the Bills, maybe BMO field will be transformed. Although the bills only play what, one pre season and one exhibition game a year. I think they could find a way to get it done, especially if the Argos leave.
          Now that Rogers owns BMO and Air canada Centre they can find a way to shuffle things around so Baseball is really the only thing going on in the Skydome.
          Even know Rogers bought the Skydome for nothing, they won’t be building a new stadauim anytime soon.
          Funny how the Skydome used to be the class of mlb stadiums less than 20 years ago…. Damn you PNC, Petco,At&T, Comerica, Camden yards. Miami park would be up there if they knocked down that supposedly work of art.

          • I think having the Bills play one game a year, well after the MLB season ends wouldn’t be a problem… It would more be an issue of constantly resodding during the year.

            BMO does seem ideal for an Argo/TFC share, but apparently it’s been built in a way that would make it very difficult to expand for CFL football. Plus, the Argos would face the same issue of screwing up the grass playing field.

      • I know few guys out here in B.C that are experts at growing grass under any condition.

        • @ James, your right about BMO field. I could be wrong and maybe tthere is argo fans on here but Bell and Rogers don’t own the Argos so really they could just kick them out for good, not letting them play at any of their stadiums, leaving the Argos to play at a campus until that Pan am stadium is built.

          • The Pan Am stadium is in Hamilton, and will be used by the TiCats!

          • I honestly think this could happen sooner than later – ie this year. The Argos lease is up at the end of the of this year, temp stand could be erected at York U or Varisty to accommodate the 15K who go to Argos games.

            There has been no word on what the Argos are doing next year, and my own personal conspiracy theory is that everyone’s been mum until now to not rain on the Argo’s Grey Cup parade, and that there’d be some sort of announcement soon after the Grey Cup. That is based on absolutely nothing, mind you….

          • @ James your right I was thinking of the renovations being done to York university, rumor is if the Argos leave they’ll look into playing there. Truth is there’s not really anywhere for the Argos to go.
            It wouldn’t affect me I don’t follow the CFL but if they’re losing money and Rogers doesn’t want them in the Skydome, they might be finished.

    • Well Beeston brought it up last year and on Sunday is when the Contract with the Argos ends.

  38. Who would be good for 3rd? Would that be Wakamatsu’s if he wants it? I’m not sold on him but many people seem to like him. Arnsburg is available. And after last year I think we need a change in pitching coach.

    • Bobby V?

    • Possible coaches in the organization inclue Luis Rivera, Sal Fasano, Pat Hentgen and Chad Mottola. It’s up in the air if Wakamatsu, Walton or Murphy come back, and it sounds as it the Bench coach job is now filled. That leaves pitching, hitting, first and third (and the bullpen, which I guess is like an assistant pitching coach.)

      Perhaps Hale as bench coach, Rivera for 3rd, Fasano for 1st, Mottola for hitting and Hentgen for pitching, though part of me expects Walton and Murphy to return.

      I think Hentgen might be a bit of a long shot, actually – perhaps when his kids are a little older.

      • Hentgen had the BP coach job and gave it up,due to family reasons.
        He wil do it for short stints or be a roving instructor or do press stuff like during the Buffalo annoucement but doesn’t want the fulltime gig.

        • On PTS last week Hentgen seemed a lot more open than in the past to taking on a full-time coaching role with Gibbons back.

  39. I wonder if Butterfield would get a chance to manage the Sux if Farrett implodes.

  40. I think Gibbons hiring is an interesting case study in fan perception.

    During his first run he came across as a brash meathead, a reflection of management at the time.

    Now he comes across as a progressive tactician, a reflection of the management of the period.

    Like so many things in baseball, the truth probably lies somewhere in between those poles.

    • With Cito being run out of town, and Farrell running out of town, anything is an improvement. Hell there were those thinking that Ozzie would help this team – Yikes!!

      • If the team started out badly Ozzie would be already on the hotseat

      • I don’t doubt it’ll be a huge improvement and I think he will be great for the team. But I noticed I think these things because of so many other factors than who he is, similar to how his success is dependant on so many factors other than himself.

    • Good post. The goodwill the jays have fostered through AA’s tenure and the recent moves certainly effected gibbons current reception/perception.

  41. Cap tip lol

  42. The beauty of hiring Hale is, should Gibbons shit the bed you have a great coach in-house who can step right in.
    Hope it isn’t necessary, but nothing wrong with having an abundance of great coaches and an insurance policy.

  43. Opening day drinking game ideas:

    Chug a beer every SB
    Chug a beer everytime Buck mispronounces a new players name.
    Take a shot of whiskey for every homer.
    A snort of tequila everytime Morrow K’s someone.
    You have to take bath salts if Lawrie tries to steal home with the middle of the order at the plate.
    …..
    Any ideas?

    • Can’t even watch somebody drink tequila (bad experiences of the past) but for Morrow…Hell yeah. The guy is going to have a career year and join the elite, that’s my bold prediction.

      • @ Tom

        It’s funny.
        You read a blog and relate to something.
        I’m with ya on tequila. I used to love the stuff.But I drank way too much, too fast. Saw a bunch of weird things, had conversations with them,they talked back. You get the idea.
        I told the story to someone and they said tequila was more of a stone than a drunk.
        Dunno, but I can’t touch the stuff no more.

        • I bought some mescal/tequila in Mexico years ago and thank the cactus gods I chose to hit it hard after I got back to Canada otherwise still own the best room in a Mexican Jail Villa. But yeah can’t stand the shit now

          • Ya tequila is black outs and black eyes.
            We’ll sub Jagr bombs.

            Morrow is the shit. Regardless if he get’s the opening day nod I’m in agreement that he’s a beast in 13.

            Butter ripple schnapps if Lind musters a hit?

            Get butter ripple schnapped if it’s off a leftie?

          • I have tickets for opening day, so I am limited in how I can play. The wine they serve is horrible. With all the great wineries in NOTL they serve some crappy generic french table wine. I usually bring my own dressed as a juice box but they’re getting wise.

            I drink tequila in a sunrise or margarita. Can’t do shots since a particular pub night in university.

    • I’m pretty sure Johnson will be starting opening day. And drinking based on Buck’s screwups will kill off 10% of the fanbase. Otherwise, sounds like a plan. I’d add a keg stand if Gibby gets tossed, and drinking a leisurely Old Fashioned if Oliver makes an appearance.

    • I’m thinking shot of whiskey every time Gibby gets ejected.

  44. I think Buck will catch Buehrle every start, does anyone think he’ll catch Johnson?

    • I’m not sure why but I don’t really give a fuck.

    • If jpa is moved then obviously yes

      • OK,I guess I do give a fuck just for the sake of learning why you would say that?

      • I don’t think JPA is going anywhere. Buck will be a useful backup since he has experience with Morrow,Romero & Johnson & Buerhle.

        TDA was hurt last year so why not let him play a full season in Buffalo before bringing him up to the Jays.??

        JPA as starter with Buck as back up.

    • Sorry, I didn’t even explain what I meant, I meant does anyone see a problem existing between Johnson and Buehrle wanting Buck to catch them and not JP.
      They’re familar with him, I hope it doesn’t but I do have a feeling Buehrle will only throw to Buck. Similar to AJ Burnett and Jose Molina…. Maybe not.
      Just hoping Jp builds more trade value… or proves he’s our guy next year.
      As much playing time for JP as possible.

  45. There hasn’t been enough talk over the last few days from either Stoeten or commentors about how kick ass Gibby is.

    • Does anyone know where we can find out how many times Gibbons was thrown out of games ?

      I can only recall Farrell being thrown out of 1 game.

      I look forward to Gibby arguing with the umpires.

      It’s November & I can’t wait for baseball to start…

      Anyone trying to look into going to Dunedin in March?

      • I’d go to Dunedin if I was hopping through Fla. on my way to all that is Caribbean or to pick up that shit your always bugging me about in Caracas but alas it would only be a side trip.

      • I went last year for two weeks, it was great, A condo on the ocean and perfect weather didn’t hurt either.

    • They’re working on a mega post of “Gibby is better than Chuck Norris” one-liners.

  46. Sorry if I missed someone else posting this earlier, but “Not so” Shi Davidi reporting (at 1:34 pm this afternoon? arruh?) that a ‘source’ has said that Hale has actually been hired by the Jays…

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/11/24/blue_jays_demarlo_hale_bench_coach/

    • One thing or fuck lets make it 2. Are you just a little f’ed up on some goofballs or are ya calling the report false….or are you fucked up on goofballs and sorry you missed it? No offence, of course.

      • You’re the one that’s fucked up in the post below for wanting to stand out like those fans in the 30′s with little gold stars…would the W in your name happen to stand for Winnicki by any chance…if so, get the hell out of here.

  47. Remember that time when you would check DJF’s and MLBTR’s 1000 times a day hoping something major Jays related would happen. Like you were hoping that one day you would check DJF or MLBTR and see that the Jays had traded for Justin Masterson or something? Well remember that time when during one of your routine 15 minute checks of DJF or MLBTR you went to those sites and saw that the JAYS WERE ABOUT TO ACQUIRE DOUBLE J JOSH JOHNSON, JOSE REYES, MARK BUEHRLE, EMILIO BONIFACIO AND JOHN BUCK!!!

    That was awesome….

  48. One hurdle I must try to be patient with is all the “sudden” Jays fans that have come out of the woodwork (to be expected) but don’t have a clue about the team or game. Wink…fucking….wink!

    • You better get used to it.
      Stoeten can put up a post and get 100 comments in 10 minutes.
      It’s gonna be a zoo in here when the season starts.
      I may need to go back to my lurking days.

      Not neccessarily a bad thing, everybody is at a different stage of learning the game.
      It just drives me nuts when people talk about WAR like it’s an absolute.
      “The team won 73 games last year and we added 14 war so we now have an 87 win team”
      Cocoran of SI did it last week and got reamed in the comments section.So nobody is immune.

      • Couldn’t agree more.
        Lots of trendy fans will be en route.
        I think lurking is referred to as creeping, by the younger crowd, RADAR.

      • Aaaah I guess its all in fun, I just feel like I have a little more time and thought invested in this team and want to stand out with a little gold star on my shoulder just like those fans back in the 30′s. can’t remember the name but I know it started with a J……Stay in school kids!

      • My lurking days? Radar do you have something you want to share with everyone?

        • I lurked ( creeped ?),fuck it, I read the blog for quite awhile before somebody pissed me off enough to comment.
          Thought that was the end of it,then somebody else got their nuts in a knot and I responded to that.
          It was a more than a little nutsoid and i knew nothing about trolls or how blogs worked.
          Not that I know a lot more now,i still respond to individual comments like I’m speaking to that person (s) and don’t really consider that other people might read these comments.

      • Hey it’s better than the days when people would talk about adding a 100 RBI guy and think that means we just added 100 runs.

        Or the days when we didn’t have blogs.

      • WAR is meaningless. It’s all about clutch hitting and knowing how to win.

    • New commenters are often long-time lurkers who have ‘studied up’ and girded their loins before entering the fray. To call them new, sudden or trendy before they’ve even posted comments is a little hasty.

      The level of discourse will probably become more feisty in the short term as new posters indulge themselves on a blog with almost no censorship. Most of us went through a phase where we revelled in our ability to swear and dis with complete abandon, but it gets a little old after a while, and once we found that it is in fact allowed, these things find their own level. I think of Bob Dylan’s line “that to live outside the law you must be honest.”

      There are always many agendas colliding and coinciding on DJF at any time. Conversations within conversations. We hijacked the blog during the playoffs against The Dear Leader’s expressed wishes, and it was great, at least for some of us. If it gets a little loud, we’ll all have to find a way to talk over or around the hubbub. No big deal.

      And Tom, from now on I’m going to picture you with your gold star proudly positioned on your shoulder (or forehead.) Send RADAR a platinum one, would you?

      • Very thoughful, as usual, SP.

      • OMG, this means there could be other RADAR-like Lurkers out there? Hundreds? Oh, this is very disturbing.

      • Wow, I just re-read that.

        I don’t believe I’ve ever managed to change the tense 3 times in a single sentence before.
        By way of an excuse, ladies and gentlemen, let me turn your attention to exhibit A:
        “Drinking Wine Spo-Dee-O-Dee” (Stick McGhee)
        ~~~Original lyrics~~~

        Drinkin’ that mess is our delight, And when we get drunk, start fightin’ all night. Knockin’ out windows and learnin’ down doors, Drinkin’ half-gallons and callin’ for more. Drinkin’ wine motherfucker, drinkin’ wine! Goddam! Drinkin’ wine motherfucker, drinkin’ wine! Goddam! Drinkin’ wine motherfucker, drinkin’ wine! Goddam! Pass that bottle to me!

      • Nice sp, well said.

      • Well said.
        Clever bastard that spud.
        Deserved of his own blog.
        I’d follow.

  49. Would anyone have a problem with bringing back Brad Arnsberg for a reunion of sorts? He is available.

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/article/1292679–demarlo-hale-to-become-blue-jays-bench-coach-reports-say

  50. A lot of people associate a bunch of pitcher injuries with Brad Arnsberg.

    Off memory, the majority of injuries occured to pitchers with a presvious injury history/significant risk factors (McGowan, Burnett & Ryan) or to pitchers who performed much better than anyone ever expected (Marcum, Litsch & Janssen).

    Litsch, for example, was throwing a harder fastball at one point which may have simultaneously helped him achieve success while exacerbating injury risks. Of course, his poor conditioning likely hurt him as well.

    In addition to Marcum, Litsch & Janssen producing more value than anyone ever predicted, there is also the work Arnsberg did with Ricky Romero.

    IIRC, Romero was struggling big time with his control in the minors, though he was supposed to be a quick-to-the-majors college pitcher.

    JP Ricciardi wanted to send Romero back to the minors after his struggles continued during 2009 spring training. Arnsberg asked JP if he could work with Ricky on his mechanics and Romer had produced 3 stellar years prior to 2012 before reverting back to Kyle Drabek-like control.

    I have no idea if Arnsberg is good at his job or not, but a lot of pitchers did unexpectedly positive things during his tenure as pitching coach.

    Obviously a lot of those stellar Blue Jay ERAs during Arnsberg’s tenure were due to Roy Halladay more than anything else. But considering the results produced by a lot of shitty JPR pitchers during that time, it seems foolish to outright dismiss ‘The Professor’.

    Fuck, Gustavo Chacin had a cologne named after him and Josh Towers got a 2 year contract during Arnsberg’s reign.

    A lot of chicken shit became chicken salad.

    • agreed i want him too

      24 hours without a move is pissing me off!!!
      there will be no late night leak on arnsberg though cuz the leak always comes from the other team and arnsberg has no team

      his will be one of those run of the mill mid day announcements if it happens

    • For my part judging pitching coaches’ effects is like trying to figure out which way Mitt Romney will flop next time. How do you tell when a pitcher is just plain talented and doing well in spite of his pitching coach? Having said that Walton fixed something (That I read about but cant remember precisely what) in Delabar’s delivery that made him a dominant strikeout pitcher, and has brought Morrow up to “elite” status. On the other side of the ledger he hasnt fixed Ricky, and Drabek and Cecil were horrible. I’m now wondering if Morrow and Delabar coming from the same coach in Seattle had some obvious glaring weakness that had been missed there and ANYONE could fix it.

  51. DJF comment section is better than the bar I’m at. And that’s not saying much.

    <3

  52. It’s only November and I can’t wait to watch the jays play again. I really hope that Rogers will telecast most, if not all, of the jays spring training games. I mean, after increasing their budget significantly with possibly more to come, you’d figure they will have more incentive to showcase their product.

  53. Is Brandon Lyon coming back?
    Or is it frasor for the ‘pen

    • No word on either yet, but IMO, Frasor is a certified fukstik and will not be asked back, given that he cost 3.5m last year.
      Lyon was decent and has excellent control and strikeout to BB ratio, but made 5.5m and will not be asked back any where near that amount. I think with him it may depend on a couple of things..1) if Oliver retires the Jays may revisit him and 2) Lyon himself is likely waiting to see if other teams may pony closer to the 5.5m.
      Even if the jays did want him back it would be more like for Frasor’s 3.5 max.
      After all, Janssen who had the best year of all in the bullpen is getting 3.9 so not gonna pay these guys more. Besides, as i said ,in Frasor’s case he is a fukstik anyway.
      Let’s keep on searching the Memory Motel

  54. Why not play baeball in snow? Fucking NA insubordinates. Comrade Matsuzaka is close to signing deal. If you live among wolves you have to act like a wolf.

    • Ah, Mr. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, maybe playing baeball in the snow is easy but baseball in the snow is very difficult.If the team is based in Albainia it would be better,little to no snow,where a nod means no and a headshake means yes.If you must act as a wolf amongst the route,then beware the wolverine in disguise.
      Who really cares if Matsuzaka signs with the Padres, he wasn’t the missing piece of the Jays masterplan.
      You may now return to the mothership with this knowledge.
      Godspeed.

  55. http://www.deadline.com/2012/11/exclusive-fox-closing-deal-for-dodgers-tv-rights-paying-new-owner-6b-7b-for-25-years-were-out-if-not-done-by-nov-30/

    And people were wondering just why the Dodgers could spend like they do. Now we know. That’s $240 million to $280 million just in local/regional TV money they will be potentially hauling in. If the Dodgers were to reject such a deal you know it’s because they stood to make even more with their own network like the Yankees. Throw in $50 million in National TV money starting next year + the gate receipts and whatever other revenue streams they have and there’s your West Coast Yankees.

    So really looking at deals like that, it’s not such a huge stretch for Rogers jumping payroll up $120-$130 million range. I am sure you can still argue they could support quite a bit more too. I’ll save the usual vastly underspending for years bit since Rogers was nice enough to finally throw us a rather decent bone with the Marlins trade and Cabrea signing. That said, don’t quit on me just yet Dead Ted. A few million more for Mr. Dan Haren or someone similar is still needed. I know it was painful for Nadir to pry open that long clenched fist holding your wallet but since it’s open now, save yourself the pain and splurge a little more before you close it up again.

    • It’s been mentioned before that Rogers has been trying to build their version of the YES network and that LA has also been considering the same which helped drive up the prices for RSN.
      Content drives the sports networks.It’s important the teams succeed.

      • You nailed it Radar. It really was a no-brainer for Rogers imo. With live sports being in such demand by advertisers, having a compelling product just makes it that much more valuable.

    • @night manimal. Thanks for the information.

      I have been saying for a few years that the new tv revenue to all teams even small markets like Cincinatti would allow them to lock up their best players. 10 years ago , Joey Votto would go to a big market team once he was eligible for free agency. Last year he was signed for 200 million plus.

      It’s very nice that Rogers decided to acknowledge what was going on in the other 29 mlb markets.

      They had to raise the payroll to 125 million range to be competitive.

      Unfortunately, the team has not been as good at developing young players as the Rays so they had to spend on some trades.

      They were lucky that Loria refused to allow Buerle & Reyes to have a no trade clause.

      The nickel & diming & dumpster diving days are over.

      The DVR allows viewers to fast forward commercials, but people want to watch sports live, so advertisers spend more on sports broadcasts.

      What is interesting is that this new business model has been going on for a few years & the Rogers apologists were ignorant to this fact & blasting any team that signed high priced free agents.

      Now that the Jays have their own” resale” Marlins free agents at last year’s prices,” the trained seals” on this board clap at Rogers for being smart.

      Rogers is a few years late to the party.

      • the trained seals” on this board clap at Rogers for being smart.

        You are one uniformed, stubborn, cur.
        You gotta be related to JB.

  56. I thought you couldn’t take it with you?

  57. http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/using-wpa-to-grade-bullpen-management-part-two/

    Here’s a really interesting article by Dan Lependorf at Hardball Times that might change some initial impressions about Farrell’s handling of the bullpen last year and of Gibbson’s in his first go around as manager.

    Should be interesting to see if Gibby and his boys put up similar numbers in 2013.

    Now the really interesting thing for me is when you look at Dan Lependorf ‘s data set which I will link in the reply below, you’ll see that Farrell was 6th in 2012 with a Manager WPA of 3.45 and dead fucking last in 2011 with a Manager WPA of -0.39!! Kind of surprising to be honest. I didn’t think he would be that good in 2012 and definitely not that bad in 2011.

    Contrast those Farrell numbers to GIbbons’ numbers for the 3 full seasons he managed which are the following:
    2005 0.46 T27th
    2006 3.06 10th
    2007 1.95 17th

    Just for fun, Dan had Cito at 2.42 (14th) in 2009 and 1.95 (T20th) in 2010.

    So does this article do anything to shed some light on the narrative that Gibby was a master at managing his pen while Farrell was a total fucktard?

    Two important paragraphs to note from the article:

    “I find this absolutely fascinating. Two teams that surprised everyone by making the playoffs are ranked one and two, with bullpen management responsible for five wins over the course of the season. Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean that Buck Showalter and Bob Melvin were five wins better than the average manager. Zero wins would mean that a manager’s bullpen management was no better than drawing names out of a hat, and as you might imagine, most managers are better than that. The average, as counted from the beginning of WPA data on Fangraphs, is a hair shy of two wins.

    “So what does it all mean? Managers who use their bullpens efficiently generally add somewhere around two or three wins to a team’s season total, as compared to an average two-win manager. By the same coin, managers with inefficient bullpen management can cost their teams a win or two by using the wrong pitchers in critical situations.”

      • Unless Dan’s data dispells it one of the reader comments throws some cold water on Farrell’s numbers.

        Rob Said:
        Interesting idea, but I think small sample size quirks are skewing the results. Take the Blue Jays, for example. Applying the WPA – WPA/pLI formula to each individual pitcher gives us this top five:

        0.72 David Carpenter
        0.66 David Pauley
        0.50 Casey Janssen
        0.34 Darren Oliver
        0.32 Bobby Korecky

        So John Farrell, at +3.45 overall, somehow got half of that from Carpenter, Pauley, and Korecky, who together pitched ten innings and weren’t any good when doing so?

        Also, 8th on the list is Ryota Igarashi (+0.25), which is just a cruel joke for anyone who sat through his appearances this year.

        If we remove pitchers with less than 20 relief IP, the Toronto total goes from 3.45 to 0.44. That makes much more sense to me both in process and results.

    • duh Gibbons’ not Gibbson’s sorry

    • Being one of the ‘trained seals’ that oakville69 rails against, I choose to stick with the narrative: Farrell was a total fucktard.
      The narrative warms the cockles of my heart, while any data that disputes it leaves me cold and miserable.
      Pass the Kool-Aid please.

  58. spud..it’s FUKSTIK-let’s get with the program or it’s no ,more eldeberry wine for you ( apologies to elton john)

    • Well isn’t that interesting–just like night_manimal, you’ve now got a new spelling for your handle as well. Your unit of futility was and is the ‘fukstik,’ but your username for some reason has always been ‘fukstick.’ A botched reset or a fix?
      DJF isn’t getting new posters, just new alter egos.

      Who are you?
      (Who who who who)
      Who are you?
      (Who who who who)
      (I’ll leave it to you to figure out just which band sang that particular song.)

      As for your main point, following night_manimal’s lead in referring to Farrell as ‘a total fucktard’, (almost a term of endearment really,) in no way does an injustice to his place in the ‘Hall Of Shame/Platinum fukstiks. Settle the fuck down. Over & out.

  59. I wasn’t gonna bag on Farrell any more (yeah, right). But then I saw this from the Boston Herald.

    http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1061177143&format=&page=2&listingType=sox#articleFull

    If you substitute ‘Anthopoulos’ for ‘Cherington’ and ‘Jays’ for ‘Sox’ you would have any given interview from Farrett to a TO sports hack from this time last year. ‘We’re gonna stay the course. Take on short-term contracts to bridge to our talented young’uns. We won’t be swayed by what other teams do…’

    Karma, she is a complete bitch!

  60. @Night Manimal.

    I was searching some posts around the time that Jose Reyes was signed by the Marlins last year. You posted this gem which was very prescient. Kudos to you!! You figured out that the back loading of Jose Reyes contract would provide insurance to the Marlins in case they needed to dump him. Well the Marlins decided to dump him after 1 year. Your post is quoted below:

    “Interesting to see the breakdown of Reyes contract. Lots of back loading. I read an article somewhere (FanGraphs maybe?) a few weeks ago about teams with new parks and their payroll levels 2-3 years after it opens. I am pretty sure the article said the payroll levels were back down or below where they were before the new parks opened. If that were to happen with Miami it could create another interesting fire sale like they had after they won the WS. “

    • Ha I do remember that ty.

      • +1.

        It’s amazing how sports fan psychology works. Last year at this time I was very upset that the Jays lost the bidding on Darvish , & AA made the “payroll parameters ” speech.

        Now a year later, the Jays are the talk of baseball & I am proud to wear my Jays gear everywhere I go.

        My daughter’s friends want to go to games already. I may need to get another flexpack.

        Rogers Centre will be rocking next summer.

        I listened to AA’s interview on PTS. . He seemed to be relieved that Rogers approved the extra budget so the trade with the Marlins would go through.

        He has worked very hard to get Rogers approval for a good payroll & finally it has paid off.

        Now if all the players flop, then that will be bad, but at least AA was able to take a shot at winning.

        The team is set up to compete in 2013 & 2014

        • That’s why you never lose faith in AA, you fucks. AND You know, not be a fair-weather fan?

  61. Lost on me at the time of the Gomes signing by Boston was that they have to play him in the outfield. I was too busy being pissed off that we lost a Lefty smasher to take half of Linds at bats away. With Big Papi getting his new contract he’ll be DH’ing every day which means Gomes needs to be grazing in left. He loses a lot of value if he has to play defense

  62. Stoeten, quit fuckin the dog, or I’ll have to sick Gibby all liquored up on Whiskey on you.

    • Good old Gibby…comin’ out of that dugout with that bow-legged little strut of his.
      When I see a guy walking like that, I’m never sure if he’s going to shake your hand and give you a beer – or walk up to you and smile and knock your teeth down your throat.

  63. Gomes is a pretty crappy everyday outfielder by Red Sox standards. The days of prime Manny/Ortiz/Youk/Pedroia/Lowell lineups are long gone. Also free agent signings haven’t work all that well for Boston in recent years. Drew, Crawford, Lackey, Daisuke, Smolttz, Jenks, Wheeler, etc. is a pretty big list of fantastic failure (all of which weren’t cheap, except wheeler). Drew and Daisuke had good or decent seasons but cost wayyyy too much. Keep it up Red Sox.

  64. Argossssssssss

  65. Evan Longoria extended for another 6 years $100M.. Risky business – or shrewd spending of limited funds to lock up a long-term piece at today’s value rather than what it would cost at the end of his current deals.

    • More like a Jedi mind trick that Freidman used on Longoria to accept both deals.

    • Another genius move. I’d love to do this with Lawrie.

      They’ve bought low TWICE now on a top 5 player at his position.

      Have to assume that this almost guarantees Price leaving.

  66. What’s Hale’s background? African-American? Hispanic?

    I know he was born in Chicago… but does he speak Spanish? We need a Spanish speaking coach.

  67. Breaking news: Rob Ford replaces Brian Butterfield as the Blue Jays’ new third-base coach

  68. Barry Davis ‏@SNBarryDavis

    Gibons adds 5 coaches. DEMARLO HALE-Bench, CHAD MOTTOLA-Hitting DWAYNE MURPHY 1b and Of LUIS RIVERA 3b PETE WALKER Pitching #bluejays

    Wow some interesting changes!

  69. So Walton is and Walker in. Very interesting. I guess a lot of people on here will be happy to see Mottola as hitting coach. At least they kept Murphy and Rivera around. Murphy will undoubtedly be helping with the hitters while Rivera is that good link for the Spanish speaking players.

  70. Here’s some more info on the new coaching staff. Mottola hitting coach!! Walton out.

    http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2012/11/26/3693170/blue-jays-to-announce-2013-coaching-staff

  71. Off topic a bit.
    From Griffins mailbag.
    “as long as you’re talking about bringing back former personnel, at the end of the 2013 season, assuming the Jays have competed hard and had success, AA should call the Red Sox and ask for permission to talk to John Farrell. Then when he gets JF on the line just say, “Blow me” and hang up. ”

    Interesting take from a MSM guy.
    At least Griff’s wearing his heart on his sleave.

  72. If your tween is into paint-ball you can take everyone to play paint-ball.
    The game was released on August 3, and is in stores now, but probably is where
    it will remain, sad to say. At each house you have the hostess serve something small
    to eat, and host a small game.

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