I’m out on the town, attempting to watch Dave Stieb throw a no-hitter against a sad September 1990 Cleveland lineup, and yet… here I am, passing along a tweet from Jon Heyman…

“at least #bluejays along w/ #rangers involved in RA Dickey talks. toronto thought unlikely to trade D’Arnaud. gose maybe.”

So… there’s that.

Comments (262)

  1. If gose is the major piece than this should get done.

  2. Tip o’ the hat to that.

    • Keep Gose eh!? LOL. We have a legit shot to wear the crown (especially if Dickey is Cy-ish again) and you wanna keep a guy who MIGHT be good in a few, maybe 5 yrs…..

      • so your argument is to gamble on a maybe instead of another maybe. good case there buddy u should be a lawyer lol

        • lol no u should be a lawyer!!!!!!!!!

          Every trade/signing is a maybe. Dickey is a gamble that has been doing very well for three straight seasons. Gose is a gamble that is impossible to predict, but odds are he won’t be an all star player.

          • Its baseball. its impossible to predict most things.

            Im not saying I dont like or want Dickey on the team. I very much do. But not JPA + Gose. Im willing to give JPA + Rasmus. If we are going by your logic and most people that agree with your theory. Rasmus is a better “maybe” than Gose. *shrugs*

          • Heinz….there is nowhere in the original post which mentions JPA being part of the deal…just mentions Gose….If he is the main part, I’d make that deal in a heartbeat…..gives us the top rotation in baseball!!

        • No he is saying trade a “maybe in 3 years” for a “likely next year”

        • The need is an arm not a leadoff outfielder. You do the math hero

          • I guess the lawyer talk was to tough for Heinz to understand

          • the correct answer is 59!! i double spell checked it, thank you come again

          • @slapzaunsfance actually those of us who were fans before “the trade” want to win consistently not “now”, that being said, if we can get Dickey with gose being the major piece going the othe way I’d do it in a second.

  3. I wish I was at Tallboys watching no hitters instead of “working” – aka sitting here reading about baseball and not working.

  4. Famous AA Money Quote: “If you hear about it, it’s probably not true.”

    • Except that pretty much all his big moves have hlbeen speculated/rumored about beforehand.

      How many people were talking about stealing Melky for $8 million? (granted most people were assuming one year). Or how many Josh Johnson scenarios were put out? Colby Rasmus and Kelly Johnson were both long llinked to AA before they happened.

      • There was speculation AA liked those players, yes. I don’t recall any rumours at all of an actual deal going down before they actually happened.

      • Yeah, but there’s a difference between “it would make sense if the Jays did…” versus “Jays are in on…”

        This is a “Jays are in on…” We rarely see those days before it materializes. Sure we saw a “Jays talking about Josh Johnson” months before The Trade, but nothing right before.

  5. I’m still not sure on Dickey. I love knuckleballers, but for some reason I’m just not the biggest Dickey fan.

    • Thanks for that….

    • I know what you’re saying, it’s very hard to trust a guy who’s just won the Cy Young. Long history of meltdowns right after winning the award, Hernandez, Verlander, Kershaw, Webb, Halladay, Lincecum, Sabbathia, Lee, Greinke have never been the same pitchers after winning their Cy Young awards, probably wouldn’t want any of those guys on my team next year.

      • Yes, because beyond the award itself Dickey and those pitchers have soooo much in common

        Holy fuck

        • A guy who’s been consistently a top 5-10 pitcher for 3 straight years is in no way comparable to other elite pitchers. Not even in the slightest.

          • 34th in rWAR 2010
            35th in rWAR 2011

            A consistent top 5-10 pitcher for 3 straight years, to be sure

          • Dickey a top-5 or top-10 pitcher for the last 3 years?

            I want to trade for him but that is nowhere close to being true.

            You may be able to pull out some categories he was top-10 in but not once you take park factors into account.

            Let’s not make him out to be more than he really is…

            2011 alone he probably was just maybe a top-25 pitcher, nowhere near top 5 or top 10

            Was he better than….
            Kershaw
            Halladay
            CC
            Romero
            Cain
            Lincecum
            Shields
            Lee
            Verlander?

            Come on….

      • Yea frankthecat, you’d never want the best pitcher from last season. What you need is 5 guys that are going to win the cy young this year.

        Holy shit. Some Jays fans are just out to lunch.

        • Cause nobody has ever won more than 1 Cy Young. Also, if you really believe that, then you’re out to lunch

        • i will have the goat curry with paphindar rice and a bowl of nana bread, serve me now!!!

        • well alright, ya got me there. He hasn’t been top 5 or 10. I’ll admit, I just sort of pulled that one out of my ass, but the point is he’s been really good. And he did just win the Cy Young, the guys I cited above have been the winners the last 4 – 5 years and obviously all have been fantastic. Except for when a relief pitcher wins it, it’s no fluke.

      • Yeah, because Brandon Webb has had a Hall of Fame career since he won the Cy Young.

    • Cause he’s old!

  6. I’d still rather give Rasmus, JPA and someone else than JPA and Gose….

    • I think I would as well but trading Rasmus instead of Gose would definitely be a higher risk move for next year.

    • Ugh not me. I just dont think Gose is ever going to be able to hit.

      Thats said, Bourn cant hit either and his 31 y/o legs and plus defense are going to make him $75-$100 million soon.

      • This is it for me.

        People keep saying Gose is so risky, but the tools he has are not going away.

        We know he’s going to have ridiculous range in center. We know he’s going to be a ridiculous threat on the bases. We know he has a ridiculous arm. I bet that’s worth 2 WAR alone.

        Speed and defense are easy to project and Gose has a tonne of these. Hitting is very hard to project so saying he’ll never hit is assuming a lot.

        Christ, Snider was our best hitting prospect in what? A decade or so? How did that work out?

        Keep the tools you know are going to play. Trade JPA, Rajai and Norris for Dickey.

        • I agree that Gose is a very valuable piece, and frankly I’d rather see D’Arnaud traded than him.

          But not for Dickey. Neither of them for Dickey. And right now I don’t see how they can trade JPA for Dickey. But I guess they might.

          I don’t know if TDA is going to be a good player. I’ve only seen him play twice, and never seen him interviewed. Know nothing about him except numbers, scouting reports (not all of which predict greatness), and the fact that he’s had a number of injuries. The skills he will need to be a top catcher in MLB are ones that are always acquired slowly. He may acquire them, and he may not. Either way, it’s going to take some time, as it did with Wieters, for example. And he isn’t likely to hit like Posey.

          Gose has several top level natural abilities which have already shown themselves at the major league level. If he played CF every day for an entire season, he would be worth a fair number of wins above replacement, without advancing as a hitter. I believe that he will advance as a hitter (the skills for which, like those for catching, are not natural and take time to acquire). He’s 22. With the present lineup, I’d be happy to have him start 2013 in CF. I have more confidence in the contributions he would make over Rasmus.

          I hope they don’t trade Gose. I want to watch him play CF for the Jays for many years. Preferably starting in April 2013. But if not, I can wait another year. He is going to be an everyday CF for some team.

        • I would definitely trade JPA, Rajai and Norris for Dickey.
          I like Gose, he reminds of Devon White and; I like Rasmus. He’s gritty. You need some balls to win the championship.

    • Can’t wait to hear you drooling over Colby’s sac when he hits .270 with 27 bombs next season!

  7. I have never wanted Dick(ey) so bad.

  8. Gose and JPA.
    Pull the Trigger.

    However do we want the Jays all in vs Texas once they get Upton and Greinke?

    Or, keep slowly building?

    I say Fuck it, take a shot!

    • Agreed, Texas will always pay to get guys like that. Might as well take a shot as soon as you can, especially with a team like they’ve assembled this winter so far

    • Every year that we COULD have gone for it there has been an evil empire out there with a bottomless pit of wealth (Boston, New York), you can’t change your plans based on what some other team may or may not do. This team is a contender now, would be a disservice not to do what you could to put it over the top.

      • Yeah, but we want to be good for a while. Not just a big one night stand full of black hookers and blow.

        • I think we can have both, you had a bachelor party didn’t you?

        • Yeah, but what a night!

          Take a shot now! Anything besides D’arnaud and a few arms are 3-4 years away.

          When we need to reload in 3-4 year we can internally.

          • You no what. I’d rather contend over many seasons than win the World Series and fall back into obscurity. Sounds like an entitled little bitch, but sorry I think if we drop too many prospects we become the Yankees.

            If we contend for 6 years, we have chance to win every year.

            Do I need to see Dr. Phil?

    • Maybe Upton drops a fly ball during the playoffs this year.

    • I think Greinke will regress in that Texas ballpark. Maybe he will pull a Barry Zito after getting paid?

  9. Anthony Gose = Willy Tavares 2.0 as of right now. Sure he’s SUPER fast and he has a cannon for an arm, sure those things are legit but I just dont feel the hype for him, certainly not as much as he believes in his own hype anyways.

    Here’s my thoughts, if there’s an extension in play for 3 years and 30-36 million I would trade Gose and a couple other prospects not named Travis or Noah, preferably mid level guys for Dickey but the deal has to include D’Arnaud, Im out 100%.

    • His arm and defense alone will make him a valuable player even if he never hits. as long as he is the CF that is. willy tavares 2.0..please.

      • If Gose’ bat never comes around youll be able to toss him into the clearance bin with guys like Joey Gathright, Willy Tavarez, Dewayne Wise and all the other guys that could run like hell, play good defense and yet couldnt hit worth shit. Sure, Gose will probably end up being a good ball player and likely wont be like one of those guys but right now, if the Mets ask for him and a young pitcher for Dickey and there’s an extension possibility, im taking it in a second if Im AA

    • Gose has way more smack in his bat than tavares

    • At what point is it practically the same thing to just sign a free agent and keep your farm?

  10. I’m not going anywhere, bitches!

  11. Stoets, where are you watching that gem?

  12. If the Jays/Rogers are going to continue to operate like a big market team in the future, I’m ok with Gose for Dickey. If they’re gonna get frustrated in 2 years when they haven’t won a WS and revert to being a bunch of tight asses then fuck that.

    • Agreed but they’ve said all along they were building to be competitive for a number of years, not just one or two.

      • True. They just made a great trade using a heap of young talent though. If it was up to me I’d lay off giving away any more. I’d rather sign a lesser arm and see what this team can do.

  13. do it, would you trade gose and TDA for Halliday ? damm right ! make a trade for a Cy young ? Damm right ?

  14. @K.G.B.S. – Was the answer to the George Bell question from last post Bruce Keyson?

    I remember the game but can’t remember if it was him or if he was the guy Ernie Whitt hit 3 bombs off in one game.

    As for R A Prickey,
    I love Gose but if he gets this deal done with JP Strikethreebia then I pull the trigger. Like now.

    P.S. A Dickey extension would soften the blow….. so to speak.

    • No, it would stiffen your enthusiasm.

      I’d go for it too, though. it’s a South Park of a deal. Bigger, longer, and uncut

      • Dickey can really stretch it out, 7, 8, even 9 sometimes.(5 times last year)

        Now that’s some satisfaction.

        I’ve never been able to muster more then 5 or 6 myself.

    • Yeah you got it.

      So here is the last question for everyone:

      If George Bells associated is purple, what goddamned colour is his dick?

      And fuck around with this one, I want serious well thought answers.

  15. Okay, I’m breaking silence. This makes absolute zero sense to me. Is he the second coming of Tim Wakefield or something? Because I can’t see any benefit behind trading primo parts for a 38-y-o knuckleballer.

    Admittedly, with an above average WHIP since going knuckleball – but everything else looks inflated after an insanely high inning year.

    If the price for R.A. Dickey is two big future parts, why not just send the three prospects back to Philly for Roy? Assumes he’s available, and I’m sure he’s not but my point being – this sounds too steep for a return I’m not sold on.

    • “I can’t see any benefit behind trading primo parts for a 38-y-o knuckleballer.”

      How can people not see a benefit in bringing in someone who has pitched like Dickey has the last 3 years? And is coming off his very best season yet, unlike JJ or Buehrle. And are Gose and JPA really primo parts?? Quality pitching comes at a steep price, seems like a pretty good price to pay, especially with the Jays looking to win now.

    • Halladay’s coming off if a shoulder injury. I like Dickey’s prospects of staying injury free better than Doc’s. Plus, Dickey is getting better with age.

    • I havent decided yet if I like the Gose/ Arencinia for Dickey but someone pointed out a few blogs back that Dickey would be pitching a number of games in a closed roof dome. With no air movement that has a high probability of flatening out his knuckleball and rendering him ineffective. In addition are we all assuming that The Jays (Rogers) will have no problem extending (signing) him after his 1 year is up? Otherwise you will have paid some fairly good prospects for 1 year of Dickey.
      With all the stats around there has to be some on knuckleballers in a closed roof dome. Did Candiotti pitch in the dome when he was here? I seem to remember Boston seldom starting Wakefield in the dome.

  16. We are to win, not hoard !

  17. Of course, it’s a moot point anyway. Too much noise for this to go down anyway.

  18. So for those wondering where Dickey would rank among the aces for the last 3 years there’s a list that includes the last 3 years of Cy Young winners in each league plus a few other top guys.

    http://tinyurl.com/d3szmbu

    Estimators have never been overly kind to knuckleballers so remember that. The ERA- stat is the ERA adjusted for league and ballpark.

    A good question to ask is would you have Dickey’s potential performance at an AAV of roughly $12 million over the next 3 years (5+15+15) or someone like Greinke for $22+ million a year? To me that’s like finding another Jose Bautista. Of course there is the cost of the prospects/players to factor in as well but also the financial flexibility he brings at a cheaper AAV.

    Dickey’s situation is pretty unique and is a rare opportunity, a type that the Jays seem to have favoured the last few years, obviously it is not without risk.

    • Hypothetical scenario for you NM.

      Let’s say that the Jays have the opportunity to acquire either Dickey or Edwin Jackson and the cost is 3/35.

      Dickey costs JPA & Gose. Jackson just costs money.

      Personally, I’d prefer Dickey over Jackson if the cost is JPA and secondary pieces like Sierra, Happ or Cecil.

      However, if it’s a trade centred around JPA & Gose, I’d prefer Jackson.

      Dickey has been better the last 3 years. But how much better would he be than Jackson the next 3 years.?

      Remember, Jackson isn’t an ordinary midrotation starter. Even if it’s a longshot, he still has theoretical upside.

      I’d love Dickey. But it’s certainly not the only way to improve and other avenues such as Jackson just require money.

      • If the costs are as you said, then I probably would go with Jackson, assuming the money was there for him this year. As I said below, I believe the price for Gose and or Rasmus really increased this week. I believe a team just might eventually get Dickey straight up for the right player. I don’t think that player is JPA.

        Again a tip of the hat or grab of the crotch to AA for stacking such value up the middle like he did.

        Jackson + having Gose and JPA who can turn into other things later on, is worth a lot more than Dickey imo. The only thing that you have to take into account is the actual ability to sign that free agent to a contract. As AA said, that really seems to be the tricky part these days even from the Jays improved situation.

        • Oh of course. There is no guarantee Jackson would agree to that.

          But I think it’s in the ballpark

          I agree, I don’t think JPA is the right player to straight up get Dickey like a Myers or TDA, though there is no way the Mets get either, imo.

          Which is why some other pieces would need to be added to a JPA offer. Gose seems like too much, though, imo.

        • +Billions and Billions

      • lol – this and in terms of WAR he’s been the least valuable one on the list.

        • You realize fWAR is based largely on FIP and FIP doesn’t do a very good job of representing knuckleballers right? As for the list I didn’t notice that it was like that when I saved the link. Of course it’s backward. I wouldn’t have included ERA- if I didn’t know what it was.

  19. If AA were willing to include Gose along with JPA in a Dickey trade I think he would have done it by now.

    Even if this extension stuff has just become apparent today, I’m quite sure AA has known the parameters of a Dickey extension for a while.

    I still think the Jays have a fair shot at him, but it will be like everything else. AA will place a value and not pay above it.

    If AA does acquire Dickey, it will be Alderson relenting to AA’s offer, not AA paying a lot more than what is currently on the table. If something is, in fact, on the table.

    The Jays are not desperate and I don’t see AA overpaying with prospects right now.

    To sum up, based on how I think AA values TDA & Gose, I’d be pretty surprised if either is involved in a Dickey trade, regardless of whether or not there is a contract extension.

    • it takes two to tango. Would the Mets have done it by now??? Sounds like they are waiting for the biggest package possible, the cost might end up being more than JPA+Gose.

      • But it sounds like nobody is willing to pay anywhere near that now.

        It could change. But I don’t think it’s a certainty that teams will give up two top 50 prospects or 1 top 20 prospect like a Myers or D’arnaud.

        Frankly, I think it’s very unlikely.

        • I don’t think AA’s willingness to include certain players can be judged at all at this moment. Unless he offered d’Arnaud and Sanchez or something, there is good reason for the Mets to wait. They have been patient with him all along, weighing their options, and after Greinke and others sign the losers might get desperate.

          I could see a team offering a better package than JPA+Gose. Some commentators thought that that package wasn’t enough.

        • Hayman says the Mets prospect return for Dickey was ‘too rich for the Rangers’ blood’. Mets are clearly asking for the moon. I’d give them JPA and Gose but not D’Arnaud and Gose.

    • Well the market for center fielders certainly helped with Gose’s and Rasmus’ value this week. From the $15 million a year for Upton, $13 million a year for Victorino and what Revere just got traded for, AA had to be smiling especially after the Revere trade. That last one certainly helped correct the lower price on Span.

      • But at some point the musical chairs game ends. How many CF openings are left to fill?

        I think Rasmus & Gose fall below Upton, Pagan, Victorino, Span & Revere. Not sure teams will value projects/prospects as much.

        • Oh I’m not saying Gose or Rasmus are worth as much as those guys right now but as the old saying goes “a rising tide lifts all boats”. I do believe Gose would be worth as much as or more than Revere if he played full time in 2013.

          As for Rasmus compare him to the guys you mentioned. He’s pretty close and he’s a few years younger than most of them. Also remember BR likes his defense a lot more than FanGraphs UZR so that might help close the gap further.

          http://tinyurl.com/d3au3mc

          • I mentioned this before but those guys projected more as leadoff types, I think their value was bolstered more from that.

            Of the team remaining looking for CF help:

            Rangers – all in on Upton though
            Mariners – going for Hammy or Bourn
            Reds – want a leadoff type, Rasmus not a fit
            Indians – ?? maybe a fit, not much money though, looking to spend more on LF or RF like a Swisher
            ????

            Literally every team has a solid CF’er right now so I think the CF value will drop drastically soon

  20. Woot here comes your minor league depth! According to MLB Trade Rumors that is.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vargacl01.shtml?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com

    Claudio (not Jason) Vargas

  21. I am at the point now that I don’t give a shit what happens with Dickey, just along as something happens with Dickey so we don’t have to hear about Dickey. Dear baby Jesus do not let this Dickey thing go on any longer.

  22. Oh please god no!!!!!!!

  23. At this point…… In AA we trust (minus the Napoli / Aaron Hill trades lol)

    • and he had shit luck with both of those trades. not to mention losing Wells was probably more important than gaining a revitalized Napoli.

    • hill trade agreed – napoli not so much. we would not have done anything with him so by trading him it returned a sup pick; i believe Nay? time will tell but we could have signed him this year and still received the pick. but i cant see us rushing out and giving him what he got from deadsox

    • Aaron Hill was going to be a free agent anyway. That trade was just fine.

  24. For those who asked:

    Rule 5 Jays from Baseball America with player notes.

    lost Mark Sobelewski 3b -Best defensive 3B in Eastern Lge smacked 20 HR & reached Triple-A

    claimed Sawyer Carrol OF -Physical lefty bat offers some on-base skills, some pop; good minors corner man

    Claimed Alvido Jimenez P – Stout righthander has spent last three seasons in AZL, yet to pitch above there

    Claimed Efrain Nieves – P

    Brewers 7th-rounder out of P.R. in 2007, Nieves has just 63 IP above low Class A

  25. I’d do this deal no problem… Dickey had a career year in a weak division, so the numbers will decline, especially coming to the AL. Also 38, but as a knuckler that’s not a huge deal. End of the day, time to win is now, and rotation needs more work (not sold on RR finding his form again). If the Mets will take Anthony no hitting skills Gose, it’s a no brainer. Close the roof for every Dickey Dome start, and watch Tom Candiotti 2.0 go to work.

  26. Stoeten, DJF needs to start supplying us some Vaseline or Jergens. There’s been so much rosterbation of late, I am starting to chafe.

  27. Check out Dickey’s dirty dirty dirty dirty change up and get excited!

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/daily-notes-in-which-r-a-dickey-throws-a-changeup/

    • The mets-owning Wilpon family fucked up when they invested a bunch of money with Ponzi-scheme crook Bernie Madoff. Not to mention investing player contract money with Madoff. Now they’re in a tight situation financially. If Rogers was really ready to throw some bucks around, the mets might be amenable to some real deals. Like maybe Dickey for JPA + Lind + 10 million dollars to pay Lind and soothe the Mets finances.

      I can dream.

  28. AA tried to get Gose when he traded Halladay but couldn’t.

    Then flipped the guy he did get for Brett Wallace.

    Then waited until Gose went to the Astros and flipped David Cooper 2.0 to Houston to get him.

    There were rumors AA was after him for a while. He likely values Gose pretty highly.

    Mets will get little to nothing for Dickey in a year.

  29. personally i would still rather us trade sierra or rasmus then gose. what if what we are seeing from rasmus is what we are getting? i would rather gose in cf defensively and on the base paths. ya rasmus more pop and shows signs of better avg. (and a helluva lot of fun trying to decipher half of the shit he says) but when looking at the two of them i do not feel there is a significant loss by having gose in the order over rasmus. what he can do in o/f imo is superior – pitching and defense wins games? if the time is to win now (want nothing more) then why not add a sanchez to the equation with a sierra or rasmus? i doubt mets do any better. as well, rasmus would free up 5mil or so. and more for following seasons and im pretty sure we would like to see jays retain johnson beyond this season if he does pitch as we all hope.

    also if we are going to be stuck with lind, why not see what delmon young wants? could be intriguing platoon…

  30. I don’t thhink Kansas City is competition for The Dick after reading this article (the much rumoured Wil Myers for Dickey):

    http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/06/3951887/royals-payroll-pinch-is-tighter.html#.UMDt9b7bkWw.twitter

    While adding 5 million would only put them 3 over their budget it would not makes sense without a big extension which they can’t afford.

    • Wouldn’t it be hilarious if they can’t afford Dickey because they blew their load too early on Santana & Guthrie.

  31. This is a simple issue of timing. AA doesn’t like to do deals in stuffy hotel lobby’s. He’s a ninja. The climate right now for this trade is making everyone hot under the collar. Let it simmer until January when we can fleece the Mets with an offer. But please don’t trade Rasmus or TDA.

  32. No thanks to demon young even if he’s cheap

    • Any reason other then potential off field? Dude can mash lefties…

      • And the off the field lunacy isn’t even that big a deal, considering you’ll likely get him on a one year deal. Acts up – gets cut

  33. This move would make zero sense to me. You better get him re-signed or else you might have traded 6 seasons of control on Gose for a pitcher that might just walk at the end of the year, who could be joined by Josh Johnson, which would leave the Jays farm system depleted and 2 glaring holes in the rotation you’d have to try and fix without the farm system to pull off a big time trade next offseason.

    If Rogers is actually willing to spend 12-15 more million a year, i think that money could be used in a much better way and if you’re going to trade Anthony Gose, there has to be some more long term options out there to help the rotation. I still think he has a ton of value, and 6 years of control.

    I’m not a JPA fan at all but including him with Gose also leaves us with a glaring hole at catcher. D’Arnaud is not going to get any value backing up John Buck or any type of time share with him to start the season. Coming off an injury, you’re going to want to get him some playing time. AAA is ideal for him to begin with and make sure he feels comfortable. I don’t think you’d want to put the pressure on him either of being the Jays starting catcher going into spring training. You also don’t want to have John Buck being your starting catcher with a barely replacement level catcher backing him up. Especially if you’ve traded Gose and have made this season that much more important.

  34. I think this Jays team still has to get a lot of things to go right for them to make the playoffs. Could the Jays really afford to be here next offseason with Johnson and Dickey both testing free agency, with the prospects the Jays did and could give up for both of them, and have two glaring holes then in the rotation? That is a franchise killing move. This team should hardly be in the mindset of win this season, at all costs.

    And I realize we have no idea if Greinke or other big name pitchers would even consider coming here but if you’re willing to spend that type of money bringing back Dickey, why in the world not go hard after McCarthy, Greinke or even jackson?

    • A Dickey extension would be worked out before we even got word of the trade going through. And even if it wasn’t, franchise killing? Dramatic much?

      • Not the DIckey move alone, but if you lose Josh Johnson and Dickey to free agency next year after giving up the amount of quality prospects in the trade with the Marlins and then Gose for Dickey, that could set the franchise back awhile

    • Dickey is a step above McCarthy and Jackson. The reason why I think it is worth to go after dickey is that he puts the team over the top into world series contenders. Jackson and McCarthy don’t do the same.

  35. I love fans that think a 38 yr old starter is going to cost you that much D’arnaud and Gose are top prospects I’d be calling for AA’s head if he made that deal.
    Arencibia and a prospect is all I’d give up and it would not be a top 5 prospect

    • It’s not fair to title him just a “38 year old starter”. Coming of a CY Young winning season. From a Mets standpoint, why would you want JPA in the first place and a B-C level prospect? Starting pitching is at a premium still, multiple teams have inquired about Dickey. Clearly that drives up the price to at least something more then that.

      • Multiple teams have also laughed their asses off at the Mets’ demands

      • Yes he won the CY Young.. what does that mean though? There were other, more valuable pitchers last year. Dickey was good – but according to Fangraphs WAR he was the 13th most valuable pitcher in baseball last year. Thats good – but not quite what people are referring to when they talk about a guy being VOTED the best.

        • And BR had him ranked 7th overall at 5.6. It helps to understand how the WAR calculations are made. Again fWAR is based on largely on FIP and FIP doesn’t treat certain types of pitchers well.

    • Yes, the most accurate way to describe Dickey is as a 38 year old starter.

      Do you know what the attrition rate for prospects is?

      Go ahead and call for AA’s head. In fact, why don’t you boycott the Jays completely, including any blogs that cover them?

  36. Sorry for another post so back to back, but I remember something on DJF talking about how someone had mentioned that any trade for Dickey by the Jays, would be similar to the Marlins trade. The Jays would be looking for more then just Dickey, which then would make much more sense to me. The question is, who on the Mets would the Jays also be after or find value in?

    • Niese or Ike Davis are the only 2 in my mind

      Niese is another valuable starter that adds depth to the rotation, a work in progress type of controllable young arm

      Davis would be basically the replacement of shitty Lind and probably part time 1b/DH with EE

      However I dont think Mets plan on getting rid of 2 pitchers this offseason

      And Davis is off the trade block now with Duda’s injury

      Both are players I like, the Jays may like, but I dont suspect we see a deal of this many parts take place with the Mets

    • If it were to happen? Ike Davis.

      I think it would be just for Dickey though.

  37. I cant believe people would trade rasmus instead of gose. Are you fucking kidding me? Do you not realize the jays need somebody in the lineup who can hit homers from the left handed side? Reyes and Cabrera have modest power (15 hr). Lind is Lind enough said. Gose has virtually no power. If Im AA I offer arencibia,gose, and a decent pitching prospect for dickey. If its not enough I say fuck u alderson and move on.

    • The real question if you give up JP and Gose and you sign Dickey to an extension say 2 year 30M. So you have Dickey for 3 years at 35M. Is it not better to just spend 3 year 35M on a starter in free agency say a Jackson or McCarthy and keep JP and Gose.

      JP, Gose, Jackson > Dickey ?

      • that’s the flip side of the coin; could you get Jackson for that much? is there really that much faith McCarthy stay healthy or is…? Dickey would look very sexy between Morrow and Johnson… But need JP to start season. Rather keep Gose n flip Colby

    • Ya i would hands down work Colby in trade over Gose.i would take Gose +d +arm ++speed sim avg and obp less slg more control and all the while freeing up 4+m. We can sacrifice the power difference with our projected lineup and still score =/+ runs. I do like colby n all but
      at this point it’s not unimaginable to think what we see is what we get. I also think by using Rasmus over Gose there is a higher probability of retaining JP. far less risk of trade Rasmus and play Gose then trade JP n hope DArnaud ready? do we really want buck as starter? that has the disaster written all over it

    • Who told you Gose has no power? I’ve seen more than one prominent talent evaluator slap a plus grade on his raw power after seeing him in person this year. Colby hit home runs last year… what else did he do? Played decent defense in center, didn’t provide any value on the basepaths, low average, awful OBP. Yes, there’s still a shitload of potential, but you also have that with Gose. Give me the 22 year old with just as many (if not more) tools, six years of club control left, and stellar D in center over Rasmus

      • Rasmus and Gose both have plus defense. The way I see it, Rasmus has a much better chance at becoming a quality hitter. He has already done it in the bigs and has shown impressive stretches. If he puts it together he is an incredibly valuable player. He is still so young too.

        • if only Rasmus was not afraid of walls….

        • Rasmus and Gose are not on the same level defensively. When people talk about Gose, they talk about gold gloves. Colby’s good, but he isn’t that good

    • I hear this all the time. Who cares whether the power is coming from the left side or the right side as long as it is coming? Do we score fewer runs if bautista and edwin hit jacks because they are right handed?

      this is like saying..we need wins from left handed starters. who cares?

  38. Mets would probably look at a player like Colby – their OF is pretty green with no standouts at the moment. Once Duda is back, if he stays in the OF, it would be much better.

    Otherwise their OF is quite weak. Their IF is solid and they have a surplus of arms.

    Disadvantage for the Jays as the Jays already trade a good chunk of their position prospects. Maybe Mets look at Cooper with some value in any JPA plus trade? Cooper’s bat could play well in large Citi Field, with his good contact ability but low power – he could platoon at first with Duda or Davis

    Otherwise, aside from catcher and OF, Mets dont really have a use for any other position

  39. C’mon folks, after 2008 we wouldn’t have traded T-Snides for the moon, and look what we got for him this year. And it’s not like Gose is alone in a barren prospect wasteland, the cavalry’s just a few years behind! This is major league wins we’re talking about acquiring! Sack up! Playoffs!!1

  40. I wonder if Dickey is a back-up plan of sorts… maybe AA has his sights set on something else, and if that falls through, he can fall back on Dickey!

  41. So here’s the question.

    If our rotation is Dickey, Johnson, Morrow, Buehrle, and Romero, who gets moved to the bullpen in the playoffs?

    • wow! getting ahead of ourselves a bit here… that would depend entirely on the 2013 season. Impossible to predict.

  42. If Im trading for Dickey and a catcher involved, it would have to JPA,he can barely catcher a fastball down the middle let alone an 85 mph knuckleball..que the circus music if JPA is catching Dickey..holy fuck that would be pathetic to watch every 5th day

  43. I remember what Tom Candiotti brought to the team in 93. A knuckleball, a serious change of pace between starters, and a World Series Title. I’m on board The Greek pulling off a Gose and JPA trade for sure.

    I think Goes can hot, and might be speedier and better armed Kenny lofton, but that’s bidness baby.

  44. Yeah, I always round up, especially drinking beer. But he brought a WS in 93. My apologies.

    See Stoeten, you don’t always have to be a dick if your wrong.

    Te,he.

  45. Maybe AA can pull off an Astros style trade.

    JPA + any four prospects not named TDA, Gose, Sanchez, Syndrrgaard or Osuna.

    AA likes to give up quantity over quality.

    And he also likes making moves in bunches. So prepare for an early January presser announcing the Dickey acquisition, extensions for Dickey and Johnson. (yes I just wrote that) and the re-singing of Jose Canseco as a lefty mashing platoon.

    Book it!!

  46. To hell with logic and stats. I still want to keep Gose!
    Love,
    Sherwood

  47. Do it. Now.

  48. Hey anyone considered the fact that this rumor is even around means it’s probably totally untrue? No rumor (that I can remember) has ever materialized when it’s happened this early in the process.

    The experts have always been wrong playing the guessing game with AA.

    Having said that…HELL NO! I would be pissed if we got Dickey for Gose/D’Arnaud, or even Gose/JPA. A one year gamble is no price I’m willing to pay. If he was 5 years younger, maybe.

    • I am pretty sure the holdup with the Dickey trade is multi-faceted.

      The Mets are being prima donnas. Their GM said in the Winter Meetings that they would trade Dickey for a «game changer» type of player. Lots of talk of a Dickey trade between KC and the Mets, who insisted on having Wil Myers. KC probably told the Mets to go fuck themselves. Wil Myers is off the table. Unless Dayton Moore is fucking stupid, that proposal is not going to happen.

      Mets are courting the Jays? Sure, why the fuck not. Are they targetting JPA? Not likely. The Mets are asking for TDA. That is a no-dice proposal if you are AA.

      Would JPA + Gose do it? In a vaccum, probably it would, but there are other teams in play here. AA is not going to blow his load right away. He wants to see how the market for Dickey shapes up before he decides to pull the trigger or not;

      Pretty sure that AA can get the money from ownership if he brings the Dickey to Toronto. But he won’t compromise his farm system by sending TDA. That is a non-starter.

      Sure, baseball analysts are cross-checking WAR, and FIP, and SIERRA, and all that other shit. But if this trade happens, the compensation will be dictated more by the old world rules of supply and demand.

      I would be on board for a Dickey trade, for JPA + some other prospect. But for a one-year rental? I wouldn’t do it if it involves JPA + Gose. Gotta have the Dickey extended before I would send Gose.

  49. It’s like back in the 90′s when we got tom candiotti, World Series here we come!

  50. Trade nothing. Buy a Marcum!

  51. Olney confirms that the jays are the among front runners for dickey

    • Here’s what he said
      Mets view most likely Dickey trade suitors as TOR, KC, TEX. But after the prices paid out lately,his contract ask must seem more reasonable.

  52. If Yankees sign Youk and Hamilton, the AL East is going to be so intense this season.

    Granderson Cano Hamilton Youk Teixera…yikes.

    • Meh.

    • Reyes, Cabrera, Bautista, EE, Lawrie

      Yeah I’m not too concerned about the fucking Yanks. God it feels good to say that…

      • Oh I know. If you look at the Yankees history this is shaping up to be similar to 1965, which was the first season the Yankees lost 90 games and finished under .500 since 1925. That ushered in Mantle’s retirement and the Bobby Murcer/Horace Clarke/Roy White years, when they literally played to 400 people (Red Barber pointed that out on air and it got him fired), and they didn’t make it back for a full decade. I can see it playing out that way for them, especially with NewsCorp bullying its way through the door of ownership, which would be very similar to CBS owning the club in that very dark era.

        Not that I’m complaining though, I love it!

      • If I remember correctly, the Yanks have to stay under the cap for 1 lousy year and then they get to start all over at zero again. If they go over the cap this year (their 4th in a row), there’s a 50% tax on the overage on this and each consecutive year they’re over.
        So look for them to spend big time next year to fill all their holes.
        They’ll be back.

  53. Kyle Lohse on a 1-year deal. Thoughts? Personally I’m not too crazy about it, but I guess you could do worse at the end of the day.

    • But why would he? If you’re not giving him years he’s not going to be interested at his age.

      • I guess you have to bet that he’ll be the one left behind in the post-Greinke avalanche, then grab Lohse or whoever is still standing for 1 or 2 years. Someone’s going to be there, that’s what I’m saying.

        • He’ll be available but he’s 34 so he’s looking at his last pay day. I’d be shocked if he doesn’t get at least 2 years. The question is whether anyone will go 3 – and I sincerely do not want that.

          I agree with the underlying point though.. If we have the cash to grab Dickey – why not save the prospects and go with McCarthy.

          • Absolutely, I’d take McCarthy right now. You can always sign RA next year, I don’t think he’ll re-sign. Not because he wants to leave, but because the Wilpons just spent the last of their money on Wright.

            I have a feeling teams will simply wait the Mets out until they realize he’s leaving as a free agent, and then pay less to get Dickey during either spring or mid-season when the Mets are desperate to get something for him.

  54. What would the Jays do about who’s going to play Catcher then if they did trade JPA? I have no problem maximizing his value if someone out there thinks that highly of him but it does create a hole at the position.

    You can’t have D’Arnaud having a time share with Buck to start the season and for a team going all in on this year, having John Buck as your starting catcher, is a scary idea.

  55. Oh also…three cheers for Carlos! It’s about time they put him up in the Level of Excellence!

  56. I check this far too often

  57. I can’t see AA trading Gose or TDA for Dickey.. probably won’t happen. But what about Davis and Buck?

    • Buck and Davis for RA Dickey??? You can’t be serious.

    • Magnificent

    • I’ll do it mannnnnnnnnn

    • Two backups for a Cy Young winner?? Yeah…that’ll happen.
      Right after Halle Berry and Salma Hayek finish giving me my spongebath.

      • I agree ( about wanting Selma for my spongebath!)
        Anyway, yeah the Mets will not take 2 b/ups, but if you smoke them out for awhile, they may be willing to take one of them depending on what else you throw in there. I think they may be willing to take Davis and his low 2,5m to patrol CF. Remember when we first got him from Oakland and the thought was-wow what a great trade for a fast CF?
        I agree, they will say Fuk Buck.
        They may, however have an interest in someone like Sanchez.
        If the Mets Dick around too much ( tee hee) Ithink AA looks at a E jax or even Dempster and keeps the prospects..or. my old recomendation of get Masterton from Cleveland who is coming off a bad year. He would cost a lot less but would be solid and would be an upgrade over Alvarez

  58. rasmus and norris should get it done.

  59. If you look at Dickey’s 2012 Split Stats, its a bit of a concern. Most of his success came against weak hitting teams. He was lit up by NYY, Cin, Atl and Was.
    Food for thought.

    • I checked them out,

      He wasn’t lit up by Washington he split the four games he started against them.
      Basically your saying that in the games he lost he pitched poorly.

      His whip with those games is 1.061259707
      without its 0.897959184

      • I wasn’t necessarily looking at W-L record – more the WHIP, ERA and BAA. I think those are better indicators of performance. And perhaps “lit up” is a bit of a stretch for Was, but my point was he made the best of pitching against weaker opponents, and teams with stronger lineups hit pretty well against him.

  60. Well if we’re all gonna speculate, I’m gonna play too.
    If AA trades for Dickey,he’ll deplete his asset pool before the season starts.
    From the beginning of the season to the July trade deadline,there will be players who get injured or under perform. If JPA and Gose are traded now,and pieces are needed midseason,what’s available for trade?Syndegard and Sanchez?
    Wouldn’t it be better for AA to wait,leave TDA in AAA,make sure he’s recovered and ready.
    Make sure that Romero and Bautista are fully recovered.That Lawrie,Morrow,JJ,EE and Melky are performing like they should be.
    It’s a team game.
    If all of the core doesn’t perform then trading for Dickey NOW is a waste.
    If all of the core performs except one or two then trade for what you need at the deadline and you still have something to trade.
    Trading JPA and Gose now restricts what you can do later.

    Unless you can gaurantee that.
    Melky is just as good off PED’s ( I HOPE he is).
    Bautsita injury does’t set him back. (reports on the injury type says it shouldn’t)
    EE won’t regress too far.
    All that was wrong with Romero was corrected by surgery.
    You get the idea.

    • Having a full year of Dickey is definitely more valuable than filling in whatever part of the lineup is ailing at the trade deadline.

      Keeping assets so that they can find a trade at the deadline to make the team better is a far worse tactic, imho, than taking this trade if it really is on the table. Chances to get an impact player like Dickey don’t come around all that often.

    • How often does adding a piece in mid-season even work though? Remember when the Cardinals traded for EJax?

      They still won the WS, but every single player they got from the Jays for Rasmus (and Tallet’s mustache) completely shat the bed.

      If the Jays are doing well, they probably will have the necessary depth to keep it going in AAA. Still have to see if they can add another SP though.

      • Just playin devil’s advocate, Indestructible.
        The team at the beginning of the season won’t be the one in Sept.
        Additional pieces will be needed during the season.
        There will be buyers and sellers in July.
        If you trade JPA and Gose now what’s left to trade in July, to put you over the top?
        Dickey is worth it. My concern is the rest of the team.Especially if they’re close.

        • I don’t see what added value there is in trading for players half way through the season as compared to now. In fact, it’s likely the other way around.

      • I think the key sentence in your comment should be “they still won the WS”

        Aside from EJax, they got rid of an apparent clubhouse concern in Rasmus, plus Rzep and Dotel were vital pieces for them down the stretch.

        • @RADAR

          I gotcha. Your argument is indeed valid as usual, but I can count maybe on one hand where a mid-season trade really gave a team a boost, most recently being Scutaro. Either way, it’s a good problem to have, and at least the Jays can be discussed in this manner for the first time in forever.

          @Tucker

          I think those two guys did pretty well in the playoffs that year, but in very limited time- they’re L/R-OOGIES. We can’t forget Patterson either haha.

          Jackson was the centerpiece of the deal and flopped kinda really hard, and I’m not sure if Rasmus was a clubhouse concern. That’s more of a media’s speculation byproduct than anything.

          • Also, for reverse devil’s advocate, there’s far more value in having Dickey for a full season than half a season. If you traded for him now, it’s far less likely the Jays would need to make a move in July.

      • alphabet was pretty solid for them

    • In regards to your depth concerns here’s my take. Say Gose and JP go prior to spring training and that’s saying a lot as I don’t believe AA will actually trade both for Dickey.

      However, say he did. The outfield still has plenty of depth imo and most of it already at the major league level. Between Jose, Davis, Melky and Bonifacio and even Sierra you have more than adequate coverage in the outfield without having to reach down into the minor leagues.

      At catcher there would be nothing to stop AA signing one more cheap veteran to go with Buck for 2013. If TDA shows that he’s ready after a couple of months then great. If not, no big loss you’ve still got 4 catchers between the major league club and AAA.

      The questions about Romero make it all the more important to add serious depth to your rotation instead of taking the chance on more Laffey types imo.

      As for the core not performing. There’s always going to be risks and let’s be honest, there’s never ANY guarantee that everyone is going to perform up to expectations so all you can do as GM is go with the percentages and put the best product you can on the field. The Jays system, while not as deep as it was last year, is still a deep one. However, you have to ask, is this major league club deeper than it was last year? Absolutely!! And at the end of the day isn’t the goal to have the best available talent at the major league level? The beauty about this team is that they haven’t crimped the system so much that you won’t be able to see positive additions in the next couple of years if everything continues to progress.

      • Well written as usual NM.
        My conservative ways get the best of me.
        Bottom line,Is what’s left on the farm to trade and will it be enough to acquire what’s potentially neccessary?
        Hate to have somebody available on July 30 th and the Jays don’t have enough horses to get the job done.

        • Oh you make good points as always. It’s definitely something to worry about and from seeing how AA’s operated the last couple of years I don’t doubt he’s actually a lot closer to your thinking than mine. It’s a lot easier from my chair in the basement to make decisions like those than AA’s that’s for certain.

          • JPA and gose is a steep price to pay for a 38 yr old pitcher. As a knuckleballer, however, I think we can safely assume that he’ll remain effective for some time (3 yrs, maybe?). Given the price, I think we can also assume that AA will want some kind of assurance that RA would consider an extension in TO – 3 yrs (total), 31M, as reported on SN.

            2 things come to mind:

            1 – He gets a bad rap because he’s a knucklballer. Let’s say he was a hard throwing 32 year old stud (equal to a 38 yr old knuckler IMO). No one would be squawking.

            2 – He’s been basically as good as Greinke for the last 3 years. If we could trade JPA and Gose for a 32 year old Greinke and only pay him an AAV of $10M per, again, no one would be squawking.

            JPA and Gose is an overpay for sure. Given how close the Jays are to seriously competing for the division, now is the time for an overpay. Imagine TO’s offence supporting Johnson, Morrow, Buerle, Dickey, and Romero (with Happ in reserve)? So what…Gose’s bat won’t play (mark my words) and we live with Buck until Td’A is ready. A secondary benefit is you keep him away from Boston, Texas, etc…

            Make the deal, Alex…

          • @ NM
            LOL Like you, I’m glad it’s AA’s decision.Don’t really have a problem whatever way AA goes.
            In AA, we trust.

            @ Indestrucible

            Playin the reverse devil’s advocate card?Very crafty of you.Wasn’t expecting that.Gotta look around for my double reverse devil’s advocate card, also known as a Stoeten’s Circular Argument Button.
            LMAO

            @TheDude
            Stop making sense.
            You’re making me waffle.

          • @Radar and Indestructible

            That made me think of the poison challenge scene in Princess Bride lol

            Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right… and who is dead.

            Vizzini: But it’s so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy’s? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

  61. I don’t like this talk about Melky Cabrera. in my mind, it will always be our young stallion Travis who patrols left field, his long mane falling down his back as he makes magnificent catches.

  62. Roy anyone nuff said

  63. So TSN put out a column about Delgado getting recognized, and for the most part the comment section was pretty good (shocker), but I lost my shit when I read this one:

    “I liked watching him but he did the Vince Carter every year in September once they were out and didn’t hustle. He did hit 4 hrs in a game -didn’t Al Bundy score 4 touchdowns in a game?”

    I.. I don’t…

  64. Ahhh 200+ comments, just like the good old days of two weeks ago…

  65. Good interview with Gibby by some of his old Met contacts in New York – Sweeny Murti (WFAN Yankees guy) and another WFAN host, Ed Coleman.

    http://tinyurl.com/ajepqeh

  66. http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/12/7/3729098/arencibia-good-regular-bluejays?ref=fangraphs

    Great little article on JPA’s prospects as catcher for those interested. It kind of misses out on the defensive side of things but that might not be a big deal since JPA has probably gone from a poor defensive catcher to an adequate one. Of course that doesn’t mean he can’t keep improving there either.

    • More like horrible to poor.

      • Well that’s one way to look at it of course even though I don’t think it’s that bad. It did make me go and look up the numbers from Baseball Reference and he went from a -8 Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Average in 2011 to 5 in 2012. Mathis and JPA’s combined rank was 8th in MLB in 2012.

        Individually Mathis ranked 11th and JPA 12th out of all catchers last year.

        FanGraphs had him ranked 73rd in DRS in 2011 and 18th in 2012.

        All told that’s a pretty large improvement year over year. Whether that’s an accurate gauge of his true talent is another story. People say you need at least 3 years of numbers to get a clear picture. Again a lot of the defensive stuff is very subjective of course so make of it what you will.

  67. Great read NM

    Pretty much sums up JPA in a nutshell – would take a miracle for him to become anything more than league average because of his low on base and mediocre defense but the article kept saying he was a unique case which i think why it is so deceiving to actually pinpoint his true value

  68. Do we really want a 38 year old Knuckleballer?

    http://pregamesheiza.wordpress.com/

    • you betcha, they can pitch for years to come and quite well. Cy young 2 37, not too shabby.

  69. Is there a list of free agents?

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