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HUSTLE

I’m assuming, like me, you all stayed up all night to wait for the exact second that the seemingly inevitable R.A. Dickey trade happens. Seems like it’ll be here any second, really. I’m going to keep this updated with anything worth knowing for as long as it takes. Don’t worry, everyone, I’m pretty addicted to caffeine.

That’s a pretty interesting way to start, isn’t it?

As fun as it was to picture a future where we get R.A. Dickey and JP Arencibia isn’t the one who has to try to catch the knuckleball, I think it goes without saying that the Mets are going to want to maximize on the return on the reigning Cy Young winner. Parting with Gose sucks too, but Martino also mentioned that there’s a chance there are other pieces in the deal coming, and the Mets are “Playing it incredibly close”. Which is hilarious, because apparently ‘playing it close’ in New York means leaking new details about the trade to every baseball reporter on the planet every 15 minutes. Is this more fun than the “last to know” Jays guys? I can’t tell.

Leave it to the Knobler to try to cool off our morning wood over Dickey. It’s still early folks. And it’s a Saturday.

  If you’re down on Dickey and want to go on some ‘character issue’ rant, that Ken Davidoff article is a good place to start. It’s usually a good sign for a trade when the media starts ripping someone apart for character issues. He’s unwieldy guys. He can be a handful. We’re fucked.

Something very odd (like a 36-year old journeyman reliever discovering how to throw a knuckleball and winning a Cy Young when he should have been long retired) has a history of happening with Dickey, so don’t shit your pants just yet, but it feels like it’s just a matter of specific names at this point.

Here’s a shit ton of info from Andy Martino at the New York Daily News in his segment with Ben Ennis (yeah row! yeah!) on the Fan. Audio here

“I need to stress that no deal is done.  Lots of moving parts, things can change… I have heard the Jays are willing to part with Gose and d’Arnaud for Dickey, but maybe not just Dickey.”

Apparently this goes back to the circle jerk at the Winter Meetings, when d’Arnaud was a  “must have”

“If Alderson was able to entice AA to get TDA, he must have sweetened the deal. The Mets have lots of minor league pitching, a few minor league OF, a few known position players. Too many names gets speculative.”

On the possible names coming back (Bennis tossed out Daniel Murphy, Johan, Zach Wheeler, and Matt Harvey as possible recognizable pieces):

“Murphy is a guy who isn’t untouchable. Good hitting 2b. Don’t see them eager to move him, no backup plan. Santana is owed too much money, and I think Harvey and Wheeler are pretty much the only untouchable guys in the system. I’d be shocked if they moved them” “I don’t represent the Mets, but you’re trading a Cy Young winner to a Toronto team that clearly is loading up and could use a guy like Dickey to compliment the pieces they already added to the rotation, I wouldn’t expect a name bigger than R.A. Dickey to be added to this.”

A quick Dickey scouting report:

“Jays fans should be thrilled to get Dickey. My opinion is that the Mets shouldn’t trade dickey. He has several years left, he’s at the top of his game. He’s been remarkably consistent since he got to New York in 2010. the only thing that fluctuated was his win totals. .. You can assume for the next couple years you have Dickey, he’s going to be good. He’s 38, he’s pitched through injuries. He had an abdominal tear and pitched threw it all year with no adverse performance.“The future is anybody’s guess but he appears to be on an upswing. He’s gotten better every year for the last 3 years. The evidence suggests he’s ascending instead of declining… I understand getting excited about prospects, they get hyped up throughout the years… It goes all the way back to being excited because the guy [TDA] was traded for Halladay, but if you can get someone who’s proven they can perform at a major league level, you do it 9 times out of 10.”

On an extension:

“As far as an extension. he wants one. Asking for 2yrs/ $26M. Significantly less than other Cy Young winners would ask. “

Well, fuck man. Sign me up let’s make it happen I’m too excited to sleep!

 

  Guys, this is seriously the same team you’ve been cheering for all along doing this. I don’t even know what to say to you.


Okay that one isn’t really news but come on, you’ll love him when he gets here.

WAIT WHAT? Alright so how does that change your opinion of everything if it’s true? I’ve already passed the point of emotion and excitement that I’m completely numb to anything. I could hear a rumour that most of my family is included in the deal and I’d be likely okay with it

Kudos to Duquette for making the most out of 140 characters but this doesn’t seem like a huge issue for me. It’s been pretty public (Thanks, NY media vultures!) the kind of money Dickey wants and all reports have said that AA wouldn’t include d’Arnaud unless he was sure there was a Dickey extension coming. LOL Dickey-extension-coming, amirite?


Shameless, right? Seriously though it’s fun, you should do it.

If you want a bit of a buzzkill, in Buster Onley’s latest blog (insider) he explains that Josh Johnson could very easily be next year’s Zach Grienke, as in the best free agent pitcher available who uses this to his advantage to make lots of money. One would hazard a guess that extending Dickey (it gets a little less funny every time you say it) means it’ll be tougher to extend Johnson (still funny!).

Still tho.

 

Okay so the picture is starting the clear itself up as to how this afternoon has been playing out. Man, if the Mets weren’t playing this so damn close to the vest we might now the exact minutes these phone calls back and forth have lasted and what kind of gum Alderson likes to chew.

UPDATES HAPPENING AS THEY HAPPEN!

Comments (466)

  1. I’ve had enough of this Dickey baitin’. Just trade him already!

  2. DICKSANITY

  3. So, you think Villa can beat Liverpool? shit wrong place

  4. Thank fucking Christ for caffeine.

    • I was working all night, but I maxed out my data plan represhing DJF… I can’t afford any more trade rumours this month…

  5. Not a big fan of trading D’Arnaud and Gose just 1 year of a Dickey. 3 years? Maybe..

    • Jays traded Jeff Kent to get David Cone. Won a WSC and everyone knew Kent was going to be a stud. TDA? Not so much. Just sayin, you gotta pay the cost to be the boss.

  6. Per MLBTR

    “Dickey has not yet engaged the Blue Jays in contract extension talks, reports Adam Rubin of ESPN New York. He also has yet to be asked to take a physical.”

    I wonder if Jon Niese has been asked to take a physical?

    • I like that….of course if Niese is included it would make me wonder why the Jays would be interested in another starter…Would they maybe be thinking of flipping him or trading him for another piece ..like another bat?

      I still cant stand the idea of giving up TDA and Gose.

  7. How about you put the latest updates at the top of the page? Yesterday’s post was a mess until stoetes switched it to that

    • Guys who else could be realistically coming back from the Mets if it is both Gose and Tda? I don’t really follow NL teams much.

      • Realistically? An A-ball prospect. Hopefully Ike Davis….. but Jays would need to add more than TDA and Gose.

        • Ikes splits are Lind esque he batted .174 last year against lefties with a 30% k rate

          • he improved over the year. was recovering from valley fever. expect him to mash this year. he’s a good trade target.
            duda is another power bat but with more swing and miss.

      • Niese, Ike Davis, Gee, Duda, Dan Murphy, Valdespin, Parnell, Brandon Nimmo, Wilmer Flores…..

        Hell. The Mets are stacked with young pitchers but have little for position players. Maybe they want to flip Harvey, Wheeler or Familia to beef up there position players pipeline.

  8. Martino just tweeted he’ll be on the Fan in 15 minutes

  9. Also Jon morosi started following TDA and Ike Davis on twitter last night… So is Lind out the door too?

  10. Buck going to
    Mets and dickeys catcher coming with him. Who was his catcher?

  11. Can someone explain why I shouldn’t feel sick about this trade? A 38 year-old knuckleballer for the best prospect in our system? How much can we expect out of Dickey in the next 3 years, IF the Jays even manage to negotiate an extension?

    • Knuckleballers don’t age like most pitchers, also Dickey’s knuckleball and arm are two things we’ve never seen in baseball before. His age is irrelevant because we have no idea what it means.

      • Just because we don’t yet know what it means doesn’t make it irrelevant

        • Yes it does. It makes it complete conjecture with nothing to make educated assumptions about. He got better and remained durable in his age 36 and 37 seasons. That’s the only real facts we have when it comes to the mutant man and his magic pitch and if we are going on that then him being 38 is not a red flag.

      • Point taken about his knuckleball, but when talking about a baseball player who’s 38 years old, age is hardly “irrelevant”.

        • Jabalong, you can’t look at his age in a vacuum, if you do yes 38 is not an age you wanna trade for pitchers, but looking at Dickey’s age in a vacuum completely ignores several relevant facts 1. It takes SUBSTANTIAL less effort and strength to throw a knuckleball 2. Dickey only has 1000 or so innings logged on his arm, so his arm may actually be “younger” and less worn than many pitchers in their early 30′s.

      • I guess I’m just worried that his future seems unpredictable in more ways than one. He’s old, but we don’t know if that matters. His knuckleball was great last year, but he hasn’t gotten great results for long (though he hasn’t thrown the knuckleball forever, from what I understand).

        I just worry that the Cy Young has covered over the fact that we can’t count on what we’re getting (i.e. less so than with any other athlete).

    • Cause AA truly has earned a fuck of a lot of trust.

      • Are you saying he hasnt? He’s made one bad trade ( KJ) and one so-so trade (Escobar). But other than that one Rasmus needs more time to develop offensively, defensively he’s fine. Overall I’d say he’s earned our trust. Dont forget he also has – through some very deft manoeuvres- restocked the entire farm system

  12. Trading D’arnaud + Gose would make this essentially a bookend for the Halladay trade. Which I think I’m okay with.

    • Interesting perspective.

    • That means that Dickey today=Halladay three years ago.

      Also, the Halladay trade happened 3 years ago today. Eerie.

      • It’s tempting to put the trade in those terms but to compare Gose and D’arnaud now to the players they were 3 years ago when they were traded for Halladay is absolutely foolish. D’arnaud is 10 times more valuable than he was 3 years ago and same for Gose.

        • Especially due to the fact that Gose wasn’t part of that trade. Michael Taylor was, who was later flipped for Brett Wallace. He was later swapped for Gose

        • Ok but from the large perspective that even the best prospects are still speculation, thats an interesting point: Halladay=Dickey. (If of course, thats what this transaction turns out to be).

          I might also add that Halladay staying with the Jays for those 3 years was out of the question for the Jays and Halladay too.

          • You’re forgetting Drabek was also part of the Halladay deal, and he was supposed to be the real gem. TDA was icing.

  13. If you are getting really upset about losing both d’Arnaud and Gose just think what the rotation will be in 2013 and remember what we had to put up with in 2012, its what I am doing.

  14. For the love of all tht is holy, it better not be gose and TDA. One of them is fine but both seems to steep. Unless we are getting more back (which we probably would k owing AA) in which case all bets are off.

  15. Trading Gose now while people are all tingly about his **TOOLS** is a great move. D’Arnaud as a catcher isn’t Harper or Trout levels of prospect but he’s the tier below… but who knows whether a repaired PCL will allow him to catch for the rest of his baseball career? If he becomes a corner OF then he’s a very good bat with a good arm but not a franchise changing prospect. I’m completely fine with that package leaving Toronto.

  16. I’m surprised no one has compared this to the Jeff Kent for David Cone trade. We gave up a future (likely) Hall of Famer in Kent, which is the fantasy ceiling of D’Arnaud. We got back the Mets’ best pitcher who had 1 year left on his deal. And we won.

    Flags fly forever. Everyone remembers winning the 1992 World Series. No one complains about losing Jeff Kent

    • Jeff Kent wasn’t nearly as prominent a prospect as TDA was he?

      • I think the internet has blown the doors off which prospect is prominent and which one isnt. Back in ’92 no one blogged. For that matter there werent any trolls either!!

      • At the time that trade was done,everyone knew Kent was going to stick at the MLB level for a long time.

    • Great comment…scares the shit out of you to trade your #1 prospect..but if this trade happens…Ricky Romero is our #5 starter!! HOLY SHIT

      • Everyone is assuming Romerois going to slot into the rotation, but he’s coming off an absolutely shit year, with no indication he had figured it out when he was shut down at the end, as well as surgery (no matter how ‘minor’ it was, it’s still surgery).
        Add Dickey and I say Romero is in a straight-up battle with Happ for the 5th spot, or becomes trade bait for a top-end long-reliever/swing man and pitching/catching prospects.

    • Wasn’t that a deadline deal though?

      • Yes, Kent-Cone was a deadline deal on a perennial contender that was headed for the post-season again.

        I really wish people would stop comparing the situation now with the World Series teams. The 1992 Jays were coming off three division titles in seven seasons and looking to get over that final hump.

        Today’s Jays haven’t won squat in 20 years. Sure, we could go from zeros to heroes in one year (dare to dream!), but let’s not pretend that we’re suddenly the 1992 Jays. It’s apples and oranges.

    • You have to remember, the Jays at that time were one piece away and Kent, a future Hall of Famer, was blocked by Robbie Alomar, a Hall of Famer. That team was in a very different spot than the Jays are now, and I think that’s part of why people are reluctant for this. If the Jays were clearly ahead in August and needed the finishing piece, and then made this deal, the reaction would be more positive.

      Also, it took Jeff Kent almost 5 more years and 2 trades (Cleveland, then San Francisco) before he finally broke through into the guy who’s going to Cooperstown. The Mets and Indians probably regret losing Kent more than the Jays ever did.

  17. D’arnaud and Gose? I was fine with Gose and JPA, though I’ll reserve judgement until the other players from the Mets are named

    • Of course you were fine with Gose and JPA. JPA’s ceiling is “top tier backup” and Gose is a bag of tools that everyone hoped might learn to hit… And he hasn’t. Gose and JPA would have gotten Sandy Alderson run out of NY.

      • Arencibia reminds me of Pat Borders or John Buck. He’ll end up on multiple teams but he’ll have a solid career, at least by unremarkable catcher standards.

        • Yeah JPA will have a long career for sure simply because it turns out he actually can catch. He isn’t a defensive liability behind the plate and if your backup C can catch AND do something else well (JP has power) then you are getting more out of that position than most.

      • 105 wrc+ im September..

        • you can read sabermetrics all you want, I’ve seen some of the balls he let by him, my cat could have stopped them. Besides, Dickey doesnt speak spanish, so the only upside to JPA is a wash…

  18. it really doesn’t matter. this is what prospects are for. AA is taking advantage of specific market inefficiencies – specifically Miami needing to fire sale and a rare talent Cy Young pitcher available for prospects. These situations don’t happen that often, and hats off to AA and Rogers for recognizing and taking advantage. Have faith! prospects are fun, but winning is more fun.

    • Sure, but some prospects are also for becoming your future stars, which is what we’d been led to expect with d’Arnaud and Gose. So fans can be forgiven for some head-scratching and melancholy here.

    • These aren’t market inefficiencies. They’re how the trade market works.

  19. Andy Martino apparently will be on FAN 590 to discuss the trade any minute now.

  20. Jesus Christ, TDA may turn out great, but you never know with prospects – in 2009 BA had Travis Snider as the #6 prospect in baseball – doesn’t anyone remember that?

    Yes, Dickey is no sure thing either, but projecting his future is less of a gamble than TDA’s…you have to give someone of value to get someone of value – don’t you think AA & his team know what they’re doing? Don’t you think that they have better insights into what the future of TDA & Dickey may hold than the rest of us for Christ’s sake…

    • For every failed top 10 prospect, anyone can find 10 that worked out rather well. You’re fighting a losing argument.

      • That is saying over 90% of top ten prospects work out. That just isn’t true. I don’t know what the actual number is, but it isn’t that high,

      • 2003 Laynce Nix 8, Chin-Hui Tsao 5, Clint Nageotte 4, Andy Marte 3,
        2004 Jeff Mathis 9, Bobby Crosby 6, Andy Marte 5, Jeremy Reed 4

  21. i just wonder why these prospects are getting hyped up only to be traded for a 38 year old pitcher

    • He’s a knuckleballer without a UCL. Also, he just won the Cy Young and has had 3 great seasons.

      Fuck, I’m talking myself into this.

    • Good lord.

      Prospects get hyped up to get the fans excited about the future of their team. That’s what management is ok with you believing. The truth is they get hyped up to increase their trade value so that you can trade them for the recent Cy Young winner without hurting the roster of your major league club.

      No Jays prospect has ever been more hyped than Eddie Zosky (spell?), and I don’t think he ever made it to the show.
      I hope TDA will be a HOF catcher. Yet I doubt a catching prospect who missed time with a bad back a few years ago and now has potential knee problems will ever have more value than he does right now. If you can trade this for a number one starter who would now drop your former ace to fifth starter status, do it.

      Get ‘er done!

      • A-freakin’-men, brother!

      • Obviously Zosky spent time with the Jays.

      • Again, everyone seems to be assuming Romero is a lock at some spot in the rotation, even if it’s 5th. I don’t aasume that a guy who was one of the worst starters in MLB last year, and who has since undergone ‘minor’ surgery suddenly puts it all back together. I think with the addition of Dickey, Romero’s in tough against Happ (who finished the year much better, after being jacked around between bullpen and rotation for the 1st time in his career following his trade to the Jays) for the 5th slot, and if he comes up short, becomes trade bait for someone looking for a reclamation project with a very high ceiling.

  22. Just in a tweet from the Knobbler deal done going to Blue Jays Dickie and a player to be named. to New York TDA, Gose, Syndergard and Nolin.

  23. My completely speculated trade

    D’arnaud + Gose + Lind = Dickey, Ike Davis

    D’arnaud and Gose is a steep price for Dickey but having the mets eat Lind’s salary and give us back a first baseman who’s marginally better than Lind may even it out.

    • approved

    • I love Ike Davis because he’s one of my Tribe, and we could use some Jew power on the Jays. But at the same time…check Davis’s splits against LHP. He’s a younger, cheaper Lind.

    • Why on earth do you think the Mets would eat salary in this deal instead of just signing Dickey to his completely reasonable contract demands?

      • because they blew their wad on David Wright?

      • If Lind’s involved the Jays would have to be paying salary. The Mets have no money. Maybe they should call their old friend Bernie for help…

        Too soon?

      • I think the Mets would be willing to eat the salary, since D’arnaud + gose is a very significant return for an aging pitcher that they’ve shown NO willingness to extend in recent days.

      • because ownership is broke (relatively speaking). They can’t commit more $ to a guy when the team is still many pieces away from being relevant even if those $ are a relative bargain.
        As Dickey is a unique situation (38 year old late-blooming,knuckleball Cy Younger), there is some risk in extending him and the Mets obviously don’t want to take on that risk. It makes sense for them to move him if they can get 2-3 potential (and cheaper) pieces to rebuild with.
        This trade will be expensive for the Jays but you gotta pay the cost to be the boss. JJ is gone next year, Burhle’s contract is fugly, Romero is??, Morrow is injury prone, Drabek looks like he can’t pitch and the Lansing kids are 2-3 years away. They have depth at C and CF and are very,very vulnerable at SP. They have to do this deal.

    • EE’s the 1st baseman… Lind or whoever will DH and spell him at 1st.

  24. Losing either one of Gose or TDA, I can live with. Losing BOTH really blows dead bears. Especially for one year of Dickey. This would be a wet dream for the Mets and a real bad deal for the Jays
    But if there’s another useable piece coming back along with Dickey, and a 2 year extension…I guess I could hold my nose and kiss my sister.
    Yes, winning NOW would be great. But I want to be more than one-and-done. I want this team to be a playoff contending threat for a long, long time – and Gose and TDA were two very large pieces in that picture.
    Unless AA is pulling a Greek ninja on us, and it’s totally different – then we’ll all just shut up.

    • Wait… Are people in Toronto still under the impression that Gose is a high quality prospect?

      • Lol get this troll out of here.

        • Haha that’s hilarious. Gose WAS a great prospect as a teenager because he had unreal tools. Great arm, great routes to the ball and range, fantastic speed… And everyone just prayed they could teach him to hit. But they couldn’t. This isn’t a video game. A guy with “A” potential doesn’t turn into a star EVERY TIME.

          Plus it’s hilarious to see everyone on this comment section act all SABR-centric then drool over a guy like Gose, whose top selling point is his ability to steal bases, which flies in the face of the so-called statistical revolution.

      • Seriously, the kid is what…21? And has had how many MLB at-bats? Not saying he won’t be a total flameout with the bat down the line…but jeez, he’s got 4 of the 5 tools in spades. He’s not exactly Elmer Bumfuck out there in centerfield. He’s maybe a Devon White-type guy down the line…and boy, White really sucked, didn’t he?

        • He has three of the five tools. He doesn’t hit for average or power. And next year he’ll be repeating AAA, because he sure as hell won’t be in the majors. Yes he could suddenly learn to see the ball better or change his approach or mechanics and become a capable major league hitter, what I’m saying is that he isn’t the top-flight prospect he was when the Jays got him an people need to realise that.

          • Fuck off

          • Great routes to the ball? Wasn’t that a knock against him late in the season? I remember them talking about how thats one of the things you learn in little league when you’re like 7, and it hasnt been corrected in the minors. Besides, the guy chews his fucking nails WAY too much for me to want to watch him everyday.

  25. Fuck it all. Who needs sustainable success when you can acquire a pitcher that will get lit up like a Christmas tree in the AL?

    • have you seen his numbers against the AL East the past few years? They are fantastic! Check them out before you make a stupid comment like that.

  26. This just in, the deal is reportedly being held up by the Mets’ insistence that the Buffalo Bisons be included in the deal. Apparently, they’ve checked out Vegas and are not impressed.

    • …but THIS just in, Buffalo was given a ‘no-tradesy backsy’ clause when they signed with the Jays, since the Bisons did not want to EVER be associated with the Mets, ever again.

      • I was at a Bisons game last year on a beautiful, sunny Sunday in May… announced attendance 3,300 – prob just over 1,000 actually in the stands. Buffalo press was all over the Mets all year for not giving a shit about stocking AAA. Jays won’t do the same.

  27. ESPN tweet Bautista re-injures wrist during workout

  28. Would HATE this deal if it were D’Arnaud and Gose for Dickey. C’mon. We can do better than that in a deal. I can’t see AA being that dumb.

  29. A lot of people are suggesting Dickey to be packaged with Thole. Did Thole catch Dickey all the last 2 seasons?

  30. So if they trade both Gose AND Travis, we are hitching our wagons to the JPA and Colby train long term. That is the part of the deal that I do not like. Not necessarily the “loss” of the two prospects,..more the committment to BOTH of JPA and ras….

    trade one///fine..both…fuck no.and I seriously doubt alex would do it

    • I tend to agree with this. The commitment to Rasmus scares me more than JP, JP as your #8 or 9 hitter is actually pretty good. Not too mention J.P has shown some marginal improvement in his time with the jays whereas rasmus has not.

      • Having Rajai and Boni makes me feel less nervous about Rasmus – I’m sure replacement OF’ers will come along in time should Rasmus not work out

    • Believe it or not we are allowed to make trades and draft after this trade if it happens. So nothing has be long term, AA just has to realize where he’ll need to focus if they falter

    • Heres what I hate about baseball today: its all about potential and stats and bullshit. JPA is awesome. He’s a bomb hitting catcher who provides decent defence. He is young and will probably get his obp and walk rate up a bit, but bottom line, a 25 hr catcher is better than alright. Plus, we;ve already got attached to him. I’m a fan, not an invester and I prefer keeping Arrencibia over Daunald anyway. As for Rasmus, he’s like my favorite player and his potential is off the charts and even if he’s peaked, hes an above average centre fielder with power, swagger and cool hair/accent. Again, I am a fan. Both players should stay on the Jays for the rest of their careers as far as I’m concerned. I hope they trade both Dickey and Gose just so my two favorite players not named Jose or Roy can remain with my team. Fuck anyone who disagrees.

  31. If I was a GM, I’d feed details of a completely false trade rumour to my leaks in the press just for kicks, with juicy bait like “deal is close,” “exchanging medicals now,” “principals are set, arguing over side pieces,” switching all sorts of names in and out until the other GM got pissed off enough to finally come out and tell the press that we never had any discussions.

  32. still hoping the Phillies don’t extend Halladay, jays are in contention/phillies are not & trade for Halladay around the trade deadline.

  33. love this deal now for the jays. there starting rotation is going to be great. love the fact that the ball club is going all in right now and trying to win. i would rather have the jays make the playoffs these next few years than have all these could be great future prospects like Gose etc and then they never make it at all. We had two of the greatest players in Carlos and Roy and where not even close to the playoffs….GO JAYS GO..

  34. 2013-2015 Dickey > 2013-2015 Halladay. Do it AA. Can’t wait to watch Dickey screw up the swings of the divisions best hitters.

  35. MAN it’s going to hurt when he goes to Texas

  36. i think they’re getting dickey and niese. and trading buehrle to someone else. my prediction. if not that, then they’re getting daniel murphy.

  37. This is more exciting then that time we got Yu Darvish.

  38. Am I the only one who FUCKING hates this trade???

  39. Knobbler “R.A. Dickey, who rose from the first cut in New York Mets spring training camp in 2010 to NL Cy Young winner two years later, will continue his epic tale in Canada.” Dickie and player to be named for TDA, Gose. Syndergard and Nolin. Done deal according to a Mets front office sourse.

  40. The other thing this deal does for the Jays is bring in revenue. Major sports networks will follow Dickey because he won a Cy Young recently. They will follow him because they like “good stories” – this can be nothing but good for the Jays – having a market outside of the 30 million Canadians and small smattering of fans from the carribean and worldwide will only help with payroll issues – judging by the reactions on twitter, many people are becoming bandwagon fans and that will help sell ticekts, merch, etc

  41. If we’re seriously giving up TDA *and* Gose, it’s got to be something like Dickey and Murphy, or maybe we’re passing off John Buck in exchange for the dude who caught Dickey last year for the Mets… This is pretty nuts.

  42. Holy shit! This is actually happening isn’t it!

  43. Just fired up the old mlb.com package archived games from this past season…. Watching Dickey vs Marlins (his final game last season, indoor stadium). 1-2-3 first inning including Reyes. Knuckler doesn’t float as much as it just sharply breaks. Need a catcher who can react with quick reflexes to catch him, and I’m not sold in whether JP can do that. Even Thole looks like hes having trouble with it every few pitches.

    Just forwarded to 4th…. Gave up a hr on a hanging knuckler, then a hit and SB, but it was Reyes :)…. Apparently he has a crazy spin pickoff move to 2B the mets announcers are raving about. Interesting. Now watching 5th, and same start to both innings. Home run after falling behind with wild knuckleballs. Then he struck out the side. Overall, the hitters are taking a wait and see first pitch approach…. Get aggressive when he falls behind. If he’s ahead, lookout. Wild swings and misses.

    I’ll continue to scout and get back with any more findings asap.

  44. If it’s Gose & TDA, is 2/3 of Halladay deal worth Dickey – and not getting anything to speak of for 3 years on ML team

    Dickey & Drabek>Halladay?

  45. Fuck imagine if we didn’t have turf and Beltran actually signed last year? Beltran, Reyes, and the Dick all back together. The Jays would have still possibly finished with a losing record and the EE deal may never have happened but holy shit this team would be monstrous in 2013 – definitely the best team I would have to say

  46. There are really 2 daily flights between TO and Nashville? Is there really that much demand?

  47. torontobluejays.com AA confirms Knobbler post, presser this afternoon at 3pm. Stay tuned.

  48. Speaking for Mets fans, the Jays are about to increase their fan base if and when you guys land Dickey. I for one will plan on catching as many of his starts as I can.

  49. So i guess AA is abandoning the TB Rays philosophy of building from within. Outside of Lawrie, who was basically MLB ready when he was acquired, and Nolin, who seems like Nester Molina 2.0 There is nobody in the system that should make an impact until the Lansing 2 in 2015.

    Has going all in after a mediocre year ever worked?

  50. Griffin says he thinks Mets would need to send back one of their top prospects and have Dickey signed to extension if both d’Arnaud and Gose involved.

  51. Some perspective on the possibility of losing D’Arnauld:

    Matt Weiters was arguably a more hyped catching prospect than even D’Arnauld. he’s turned ou to ba a solid major league catcher, and is still young enough to improve, but as is usually the case, has not lived up to the hype. Would you trade Gose and Weiters for Dickey?

    And Weiters is a good example; many other can’t miss prospects (the Jays have had numerous ‘great’ catchers) do far worse than Weiters.

    As good a prospect as he is, the chances of D’Arnauld becoming the next Pudge Rodriguez or Johhny Bench are ridiculously low. Even if he does, if the Jays can hang another World Series banner up in the next three years, it’s worth it.

    • Wieters put up 5 fWAR last year, and 4.1 this year. I wouldn’t trade him straight up for Dickey.

      • Even IF TD”A turned out to be as good as Weiters (big if), I’d still make that trade. If after due diligence I were confident that Dickey could put up the numbers for the next three years like the previous three.

        2013 Jays with 2010-2012 Dickey make them possibly the strongest 25 man lineup in the Majors.

        The downside being almost zero depth beyond the 25 man.

        As an aside; must suck being a Buffalo Bisons fan. All the hoopla of being a Jays org. next year has disappeared.

    • Werd. See Robinson Diaz, Guillermo Quiroz, Kevin Cash. Granted, non were expected to be at the Wieters/TDA level but all had some hype. All failed to make any impression whatsoever at the MLB level. Falling in love with prospects is easy to do, but they will break your heart.

      • Those guys were absolutely, no where near the prospects that TDA and Wieters are/were.

        Very poor argument.

      • Shit, calling any of those guys prospects is overhyping them.

        • That’s why I said they were not at the level of Wieters/TDA.
          The point is that each of them were seen by fans (many reading this will remember) as blue jays “catchers of the future” at one point. Well maybe not Cash. He sucked.
          Total of about 1000 crappy MLB at-bats between them.

    • Was thinking about Weiters too, and its too early to write him off as not living up to the hype. People expect these super hyped prospects to jump into the majors and turn into superstars right away. The fact is there’s usually an adjustment period. Over the past few seasons, the only position players that come to mind who were hyped up and didn’t struggle to start are Braun and Posey. Even Trout struggled two years back when he came up for a cup of coffee late in the year. Rookies of the year are usually pitchers. So this is a classic future for now trade. Give it few years before we really know what TDA is going to be. And by that time, some of the core in Toronto (namely JB, JR and EE) are past their prime. Good trade for both teams, I guess it was wishful thinking earlier on that we’d be able to pull a fast one on the NYM and keep D’Arnaud. Now if AA can get them to send over a reliever like Parnell in the swap, I’d be ecstatic.

  52. WE SAVED GOSE!

    @Joelsherman1

    So to repeat, Anthony Gose is NOT part of the trade talks for Dickey. #Bluejays building a package around D’Arnaud. #Mets

  53. MLBTradeRumours says no Gose in package

  54. Also, was wondering why all these leaks are coming out, presumably from the Mets side.

    Then I remembered, doesn’t Ricciardi work there?

    • yeah, JPR can just fuck off…it’s like he is trying to ninja AA by leaking the deal and having AA call it off, or something shitty like that.

      If it wasn’t the Mets (and JPR in the mix) I would be reminding everybody that we barely heard about any of the Ninja’s deals before they actually happened.

  55. While I appreciate the need to have young talent constantly flowing through the system, when you can get tangible major league talent in a Cy Young winner, you have to make that move.

    Toronto’s farm system is still pretty good in compared to many MLB teams, even if they lose these guys, and with the appreciation in talent of TDA and Gose over the past years means that, if nothing else, the scouting and coaching in the minors is firmly in place to groom the next guys.

    Part of the reason you want to have all these guys flow through the system constantly is for moves exactly like this. If you want to build a team that has a rookie of year candidate every year…well you don’t so this. But chances are less if you hold onto all your 1A prospects, that by the time they’re ready to make the leap, the team they’re on are garbage, and can’t singlehandledly (usuallly) turn the team’s fortunes around all by themselves and then may lost some of that MLB development by playing on a poor team. There’s certainly a fine line there though, on both sides of the argument.

    Regardless, I think AA has some ninja moves left in this trade as to what can come back from the Mets and even this one out (on paper) at least. Shit, “In A A you must trust” .

  56. Ricciardi is pushing Alderson to try and get Frank Menechino into this deal.

  57. Beauty

    Much rather keep Gose now that we’ve seen him in the majors

    Remember, we’ve never seen TDA in the majors, his value is at its peak and we have a half decent catcher as is who is locked up for 4 years, with 2 other decent catchers in the minors

    Hate to see TDA go but having to see only one of TDA and Gose is a huge relief IMO.

    • So if TDA came up and played one game so that you would have seen him in the majors, you would no longer be ok with the deal? Because Gose didn’t do shit in the majors.

      • He did well in September though; Cut down on the strikeouts and walked a lot more. I don’t buy the argument of AAA players making that much of a difference, but it is a SSS to draw upon. He at least has shown a flash of his potential.

        • More so just trashing the shitty argument of one player being more significant because he spent time in the majors while the other didn’t.

          • wtf are you going on about? it’s the idea of trading a player who has yet to play a game in the majors, the Mets still view D’Arnaud as this guy who raked in the minors so until he plays a single game in the majors his value will be perceived on possibilities alone

            for Gose, we have seen him play, his value is still high but not as high should he have stayed in the minors and i much prefer AA dealing a player at the zenith of his value for that reason

            Gose we now know what to expect somewhat – a rough idea – and because the Jays are so close to contending i’d rather have a rough estimate than a complete shot in the dark

            remember, JPA killed in his first game and we all suddenly thought was the next big thing but time played its course and we now know what to expect him from. No person in their right mind would change a view after one game, get a grip man

  58. I’d rather give up Sanchez/Syndegaard + Gose than give up TDA.

    Catcher is going to be a hole for a very long time.

    • Thing is, catcher is a big hole for 20-25 other teams, as well. With the quality of catching among your peers, JPA does not pur you at a competitve disadvantage.

      Even with Arencibia, we probably have the 2nd best catcher in the division.

      • Yeah, and with TDA, there’s a good chance we become a team with spectacular production out of catcher.

        I’m not saying this is a bad deal but it no longer feels like the significant improvement that it would have with Gose/Arencibia/Piece in the minors.

        We’re now trading a great asset for a great asset, filling a hole while creating one.

        • My feeling is you always trade a great pitcher for a great position player.

          Tampa has shown us several times that a great rotation with an average or worse offence can take you a long way.

        • Where are we creating a hole?

          Keeping JPA for the next while and having Mottola work with him on his patience and pitch recognition is hardly a hole. Sure D’arnaud would likely be an upgrade, but so is Dickey… In a big way.

          Plus we’ve got good depth for catchers in the minors. After Gose our outfield depth takes a big drop.

    • I wouldn’t. Sanchez/Syndergaard is our future rotation. Someone in our present staff is going to be gone by the time they’re ready to come up–blown out elbow or something else.

      But yes to Gose over TDA.

    • Catcher being a hole for a while? Sure if you’re talking grooming some teenager into a MLB’er.

      2 months ago, the desperation for 1, maybe 2 decent SP’s to take the pressure of RR….the team is now poised to have added 3 SP of a higher quality than that, in this short time period thanks to an injection of Rogers green.

      WIth the Jays scouting on top of things, in a year or two, they can pluck that next up and coming catcher (or regular full time catcher) from some desperate team, if they so desire.

      • That last paragraph is wishful thinking.

        • The jays don’t need any extra catching, they have a plethora of solid catching prospects even behind TDA. Nessy made a couple top 10 lists and he’s still probably 2 years away. Jiminez isn’t a nothing prospect either

  59. Trading for Dickey and extending him makes the Marlin’s trade look a lot worse.

    This is based on the assumption that they are probably not going to extend both JJ and Dickey while keeping Buehrle’s/Reyes’ ridiculous salaries.

    The Marlins trade is really only good if the Jays can extend a reasonably healthy Johnson.

    • I’d rather see them trade for Niese or another young, cost-controlled arm that will allow them to extend JJ.

      • In 2014, the $$$ saved on Lind and Buck, plus the uptick in ticket sales, plus the TV money = JJ extension (if he pitches well). You have to believe that season tickets sales are through the roof at this point…

        • That money is already spent on Reyes and Buehrle’s massive contracts. These are backloaded deals… heh.

    • If we let Josh Johnson walk–no lock, mind you–we’re still going to offer him the qualifying offer and recoup a comp pick. And comp picks are worth more now that there aren’t 40 sandwich comp picks before the second round.

      • That comp pick matters significantly less considering we will be in a three year window to win.

        • I don’t believe in the myth of the “three year window.”

          I see us locking up Johnson, and then trading away rotation members to make room for Sanchez and Syndergaard in a few years.

          We trade them away either for prospects or for younger regulars to fill holes as needed.

        • I’m sure Gose, Sanchez, Syndergaard, Osuna, Stroman, Smoral, DJ Davis and 3 years worth of draft picks probably have something to say about this “3 year window” that people keep mentioning.

          Oh yeah. And Lawrie, JPA, Reyes, Santos, Rogers, Lincoln and Delabar….

          And extension candidates Rasmus, Johnson, Romero, Morrow, EE and Bonifacio…….

          And any free agents that the Jays sign in the coming years……..

          And anyone they trade for in the coming years……..

          Seriously?

          • The Jays have not developed one player from a minor leaguer to an above average major leaguer in years.

            • They developed Marisnick and Nicolino into Jose Reyes?

              Looks like they’re developing TDA into Dickey.

              Jays have a lot of valuable prospects still no matter what way you look at it.

      • Jays should have just stuck to the plan. Now we’re well into mortgaging our future to win in 2013.

        You can talk about these fucking picks all you want… what did Musgrove and Comer get us? JA Happ? FUCK YEAH!!!!!

        • … ya, I’m gonna hate watching playoffs and a poss World Series appearance this year

        • Yeah, then we can enjoy another 20 years of rebuilding/mediocrity! FUCK YEAH!

          And Dexter, you know that is not what I meant at all.

    • …or it is a great hedge against the possibility that they lose Johnson after the season, or if he gets injured during the season.

    • Unless the Jays attendance goes up to 3.5 million, they get 2-10 home playoff games, and they double their TV audience!

  60. Remember kids, a Dickey bird in the hand is worth two in the bush leagues.

  61. Guess JPA is laughing right in your collective faces.

    • JPA looks like is staying. Not sure AA really wanted it that way. You never know JP Breaks out, starts getting on base, hitting for power and TDA has knee problems in a couple years, Mets might be wishing they received the other catcher. TDA will be good but if unfortunately hurts his knee again could be looking at a 1B and they’re just so much less valued, tons of power and on base guys not a lot of catchers. TDA could be Joe M 1B/C.

  62. Lol at all the clownshoes comments.

    This is the perfect time to go for it… stack the team up now while Bautista is in his prime, NY & BOS are not near their peaks. Just look at who the Jays added to the team this off season.

    Johnson
    Reyes
    Buhrle
    Bonafacio
    Dickey
    Melky
    ??

    Sometimes you have to give up something to get something. A cy young winner on a low contract seeking a cheap extension is very rare and valuable. Anyone who is upset about the prospects needs realize the future is now. #Winning is this season. If you can acquire stars/quality players for prospects as easily as AA has done this offseason you go for it, unless you are so focused on the money (yrs control/preFA yrs).

    • +1.

      Yes it seems that AA will do whatever it takes to get to the playoffs in 2013.

      A playoff team in this city would get fans very excited.

      Rogers wants to maximize revenues.

      Apparently you can’t even get home opener tickets anymore on the flexpack.

    • Amen.

      Some get all fucking hot and bothered over talking about and projecting young talent that hasn’t played an inning. Not saying that they guys are not going to translate into major league players and maybe very good ones.

      But there are those people that prefer to deal with analyzing/pumping up the tires of minor A, AA and AAA players, which 90% of the public had heard of and 99% has never seen play, simply because then their opinion can sound like an expert in the prospect pool.

      Without many able to refute those projections/analysis one way or another based on MLB tangible arguments (as you can with day to day roster players) to refute their opinion/analysis, these rookies get their potential and reputations pumped in the vaccum up, as the next golden goose when they get the chance to make it to the majors.

      Again, its clear that TDA will be a MLB player, how good of one you’ll never know and can’t 100% project from his last 3 years of development, as good as they have been. It all depends on the role he plays on the team he plays with, his injuries, his offseason development etc etc etc…

      I think if Gose didn’t see an inning up here this past year, his stock on paper and hype by those pumping up TDA, would be higher than it is in and the handwringing of using/losing him in this trade (even as a solo piece) would be as high as it is for TDA.

      Since he’s played and didn’t save the Blue Jays like the prospect experts whipped some people into thinking, some of the shine if off his stone, completely unfairly possibly…but the still total unknown fucking factor of what actual impact TDA will have, that’s just based on how he’s improved in the minors in the past 3 years may be overhype when he gets to the league as well by those who have not much more of an idea then anyone else how some young guy will turn out in the majors.

      For every can’t miss project that lived up to the hype, there’s 2 more still living off their big signing bonus in Florida after a forgettable 4 year MLB and 4 year AAA career.

  63. Current conversation I’m having: “knuckleballers don’t pitch well past 40.”

    Fuck my life.

  64. Griffin says Gose not believed to be in deal. Obviously I have no idea but could be one for one….Straight up. If others are involved Parnell, Ike Davis, Lind and Gose and A Mets prospect involved. I just don’t know what you’d want from the Mets. Ike Davis hasn’t completely figured it out but moving Lind might free up some money for Lyon or something else. Davis has some years of control(4?) and is young. I wouldn’t mind getting Davis, we have no options at first base for the long term(Cooper is it really, no one’s sold on him)

  65. So the Mets don’t want Gose, even though the organization is shallow in the outfield. What does that tell you about him? I’m disappointed he’s still with the Jays…. Looks like the Mets weren’t fooled by his other “tools”. Cant hit, strikes out a ton. Said it a million times before. D’Arnaud is the guy they want, not the strikeout king Gose, you can’t blame them.

    Hope AA can still move him for a reliever.

    • I agree with your sentiment on Gose, but it’s likely an either/or situation. And I’d want TDA.

      Vapid irrational fan in me got my hopes hung on a JPA/Sierra/non-Sanchez or Snygen arm. I’ve set myself up for disappointment. Still hurts to lose TDA.

      • Gose was always going to be part of that package if it was going to be Arencibia and not TDA.

        JPA/Sierra/non Sanchez/Syndergaard is a terrible package. Calling that a package is generous.

    • It may also be that the Mets are idiots.

      • Sandy Alderson is not an idiot. The rest of the organization is a pile of shit, but not Alderson. He’s one of the smartest minds in the game.

  66. Guys I think we need to insist on including Thole in this trade too. Catching the knuckle is a definite concern as we saw in this year’s ASG. Not even Posey was confident he could catch him and it showed.

    When Doug Mirabelli was traded from the Red Sox, Tim Wakefield lost his personal catcher. The result was Josh Bard having 10 passed balls in seven games catching Wakefield. Mirabelli was quickly reacquired. Catching a knuckler ain’t easy.

    • Dickey’s a bit of a different pitcher than Wakefield – different speeds, Wakefield was basically all knuckleball and it was a bit slower – but I agree, I’d feel safer having him.
      finding out we have a problem later and having to overpay for a catcher who’s caught knuckeballs would be a shame.

    • I think you’re right. If the Jays get Thole, that leaves them with 3 catchers. Does anyone think that Buck may be going the other way for one year? Folks have mentioned that its a five player deal…

    • Good point on the catcher thing…. Need a guy with cat like reflexes to catch that thing. Nobody knows where it’s going. I don’t think JPA is a plus defender either. Hope they can land Thole and Buck somehow goes the other way. The backup catcher carousel continues.

    • We’re making this about Thole vs. Buck, but what if the actual discussion was Thole vs. Whiteside?

      • then you are having to include the Rangers in a three way deal…they claimed Whiteside from the Jays a couple of days ago.

    • I said the same thing yesterday, but then I couldn’t figure out if AA or Gibby would want three catchers on the roster, but teams have done it before Angels.

      Could always try to move Buck but what would you get. Maybe, Buck and prospects( Not very high Sp prospects) to the Twins for Morneau, but then what to you do with Lind. (Thoughtbof Twins only because they might want a catcher use Doumit at DH or OF and Mauer at 1B, Twins could use Lind at DH, need Doumit and someone in CF. I know this is a blue Jays site but has anyone read what the hell Twins are going to do with Mauer is he going back to full time C.

  67. Question: since Dickey pitches a harder knuckler, does that mean he’ll age worse than the traditional knuckleballers?

    Dickey’s only got 1000 major league innings on that arm (and 1200 in the minors), so I’m not worried about his arm falling off before he’s 40, which is what he’ll be at the end of the deal. I just don’t know if we can count on him to last till he’s 45 like the other knuckleballers.

    • You’re thinking way too far ahead. This is about 2013. And a his “hard” knuckler is high 70s to low 80s, so still pretty slow compared to most pitchers top speeds. Plus, he has no UCL. Decent chance the arm is still in good shape over the ext few years, but regardless, it’s a risk the Jays must take. The time is now. Next move should be to beefen up the bullpen with some late inning nastyness. Dangle Gose as bait.

  68. Getting Dickey with a reasonable extension gives AA more leverage in the JJ talks but I still see an extension unlikely with him. Remember we have Hutchison coming back for 2014 (at the latest), so the rotation will still look pretty damn good and don’t forget about Nolin (unless he goes here). This is not one and done at all. Gose will likely be ready for prime time in 2014 and one of he or Rasmus can be moved to fill another hole. Then we have the Lansing 2+Osuna coming in 2015. AA is dealing from surplus and building a sustainable contender with a mid/big market payroll as he and the Beest promised all along. Gotta say i didn’t see it coming but I FUCKING LOVE IT!!!

    • Jays need to lock up JJ early if they want a chance at him.

      Otherwise he’s getting 300 years/ 298 billion from the Dodgers next year.

      • I was thinking the same thing, price is only going up. That’s why I really wanted them to do an extension before Anibal Sanchez, because now his price is way higher than his former teammate. Was hoping they could use Weaver as the example but now with Sanchez 5/80 we’ll be lucky if we get him for 5/100 now. Bad thing about waiting, price only goes up, Of course AA could always extend him mid season for a boat load of money and then try to move Buerhle. He’s pulled of Christmas miracles before……Wells!

      • +298 billion…lol

  69. Crazy thought…how about D’Arnaud, Rasmus and Buck for Dickey and Thole. The Jays could cover Buck’s salary with the $$ from the Marlins.

  70. As a Toronto sports fan, having watched the “assention” of Damphouse, Richardson, Kenny Johnson, Jeff Ware, Russ Adams, Landon Wilson, Kent Manderville, Dustin McGowen, et. al. I am totally ok with this trade.

  71. Why trade Burhle he’s a rock in the Rotation and solid number 3 option don’t create a hole you just dug out of

    • people for some reason think Buerhle is a bad pitcher, dont know where that idea came from

      • I don’t think he’s a bad pitcher dud is durable. But I do think the only way we could sign Josh Johnson especially after reading Buster Onleys article today is if the Jays move Burehle next offseason. He’s set to make 19,……..I think.

        • Get rid of Buehrle asap.

        • Or AA could flip JJ, especially if he views Dickey as the ace for the next couple years. If JJ ends up being the Greinke of next yr, AA would need to do an extension quickly before his value rises but AA may be hesitant to do that – he could very well flip JJ and re-coup some prospects or get other pieces for other holes that may emerge

          Really wont know until we see if Morrow continues to become ace-like and Romero rebounds

          • If JJ’s agent isn’t blowing smoke, I think JJ could be locked up for something similar to what Anibal signed for.

          • That’s the other thing to, we traded all these prospects but if we’re not in the race near the trade deadline we get good prospects back for dealing JJ.

    • because his contract is horribly back-loaded and he will be impossible to trade in a year.

  72. Heyman speculating that the Mets might be targeting prospect Danny Barnes as well.

  73. Buster Onley, Josh Johnson could be next years Zachary Grenike. Thanks Buster, I didn’t realize Matt Garza was the only other Pitcher other than JJ available next offseason. There’s others but those are the big two. JJ could be leaving not sure AA, more importantly Rogers are willing to go near Greinke territory. Makes Dickey even more valuable to us.

    • Exactly

      Acquire Dickey, sign to extension – gives you a couple options. They have 2-3 years to assess whether:

      -Rickey rebounds to be a #2/pseudo #1
      -Morrow continues to emerge as an ace
      -Buerhle’s contract doesn’t become too pricey for his production
      -any one of their prospective young pitchers emerges

      This gives them flexibility to deal JJ should he find himself in Greinke territory – a team like Texas, if it misses playoffs again this year, the fans will demand a big acquisition and AA could use that to his advantage – re-acquire more prospects and refresh the famr or get some other position pieces

      • Buehrle is clearly overpaid, but he’s durable and a nice veteran presence. Romero is Barry Zito 2.0 from the perspective that he got his big contract and then forgot how to pitch. Perhaps the move down the rotation will help, but I wouldn’t bet on it. He fell down the mountain pretty hard, and its not that easy to climb up again just because its a new season. The Dickey move clearly puts RR as the 5th guy (different spot from the rest because that’s the spot you skip if you need to), which in retrospect clearly shows how careful they’re being with the rotation. Can’t have any slip ups by RR this season, and if he does screw up in his first 3 or 4 starts, he’ll be taking his talents to Buffalo. Hard to believe we’re talking about RR in this light, but that’s baseball, it happens.

        • Yeah but they’ve given him a full season to get his shit together…not like they havent been loyal. To RR’s credit though, I’m guessing there’s no one that works harder to come back than him.e

        • Finally… someone who sees that it may take a year or 2, or more for Romero to get back to where he was before finishing last year as one of the worst starters in MLB, and then undergoing surgery.

    • What do you think JJ is worth (assuming his average performance in 2013 and injury free)? Does a 4 yr/75M get it done if AA does it early? If he hits free agency, I think he’ll be in line for way more.

      • I think he would sign for 5/80. It sets him up for life, and his health is a major concern.

        If JJ performs, AA got him for about 50% of what he was going to get in 2013 as an FA.

      • If healthy the whole year, I could see him get a 6 year deal, otherwise with his health issues I imagine a 4 yr with option for 5th. I imagine he gets something close to the Sanchez deal, potentially better – possibly approaching 100 mil – New York might be ready to pony up some cash if Cano walks and they shed some contracts

        I think AA would do 4/75 and that could work for JJ but Rogers may not want to pour too much more money into the team.

        I’m not sure what the Jays could get in prospects as JJ will be approaching age 30 – probably something similar to the Cliff Lee deal in terms of prospects but who knows with AA and his creativity

        • The problem is that the Marlins deal becomes a lot worse if the Jays fail to extend JJ.

          What would we think about the TDA for Dickey trade if we failed to extend Dickey?

          A lot of this shit is hinging on extensions.

          • Yea, I think the point of that trade is to extend JJ for sure. I dont think AA wants to re-shuffle more prospects in right now. But it is nice to know if things fall apart AA will get the best deal for JJ because he acquired him fro a decent price in the first place and JJ will likely be the most desired pitcher on the market

          • If they don’t extend Johnson, the Marlins trade will still be great. Why?

            World Series!!!!!

          • Yeah, I’m going to laugh pretty hard when the Jays miss the playoffs and we just fucking traded the farm away for pitchers on one-year deals.

      • Well by the time the deadline gets here the Jays will have a pretty good idea as to whether they can extend JJ or trade him. I’m going to stick my neck out here and say that if even the last WC is still within reasonable reach, they’ll keep him even if he isnt signed.

        I’m curious about Dickey though. There was a tweet last night that said that 2 “insiders” who Mets execs I believe, said that he would definitely sign the 2/26 extension when and if the trade went through.

  74. so the trade , if it goes, and I’m still skeptical, becomes, effectively, TDA AND Rasmus for Dickey? That’s pretty much the same as TDA +Gose for Dickey( Yes $$$ and control issues abound but, more or less)) . Still an overpay in my book.
    Somehow I think AA wants to wangle RHP Bobby parnell into this ( he of the 98-100mph fastball)

  75. Someone please explain why this propsed trade is better than simply signing EJax or Marcum to a three year deal. Seems like a FA pitcher is going to cost the same, but no loss of potential. RA is good and had a great ’12, but is he that much better?

    • Marcum is bad is why.

      EJax isn’t coming.

    • Because Dickey’s a much better pitcher than either and will come at about the same price (and probably less than EJ)…Career .500 pitchers are getting 13-15M AAV these days, which is less than RA is asking for…Also no guarantee that any prospect will actually deliver in MLB. .

    • Marcum has some injury issues, EJax has control issues and can be very up and down throughout any given season. Dickey just won the Cy Young and will cost around the same price. Much more bang for the buck, and the time to win is now.

      • We want the Jays to be sustainable. Not fucking one year of maybe making it… look at the fucking Angels. Look at the Red Sox.

        God I hope the Dodgers don’t make the playoffs next year.

        • It’s hard enough to project one season in baseball,let alone multiple years. Just because Tampa had a ton of young talent work out in their favour (having a few first and second overall guys in the mix like Price and Upton didn’t hurt), doesnt mean its a formula for guaranteed success. The only philosophy, unfortunately, that correlates with winning, is spending money. Never any guarantees with that either, but over the long haul, it’s the one method of management that’s had the most success. Tons of prospects turn into average players,not because they suddenly became shittier players, but because they were overhyped in the first place. Guys like Price and Upton and even Longoria who was a high pick in a deep draft are the exception to the overhype rule, and their draft position justifies it. You need to be really really bad for several years to get guys like that (Nationals are in the same conversation). The Jays haven’t been as bad as those teams once were, and likely wont be in the near future, so don’t expect franchise guys like Harper, price, Strasburg, longoria, etc to comeuppance through the ranks. AA is making the best out of his current prospects, many of whom might nt live up to the hype anyways. He could very well be the best GM in all of baseball.

    • Because remember whoever the new pitcher is replacing Happ. EJax and Marcum are no guarantees to be better than Happ. At their best, those guys aren’t that big of an upgrade on Happ. Dickey is far more likely to be a significant upgrade on Happ. I think it’s either get an elite pitcher like Dickey or roll with Happ next year. Dropping FA money on Jackson or Marcum gets you a marginal upgrade at best.

    • yes, he is that much better.

  76. AA hates all this Silent Ninja talk but then goes and trades for Dickey the Ninja in training.

  77. TDA + Gose or some other prized prospect for Dickey is likely not going to happen. Like in the Marlins deal, AA is going to expand this mother fucker and get some other piece in return. My bet is that he asking for 2B Daniel Murphy. Murphy is a good spray hitter who can handle 2B adequately. He can also play 3B and the corner outfield positions in a pinch.

    Izturis remains as utility infielder (SS, 2B), with Bonifacio the super-utility guy able to handle 2B, SS, 3B, LF and CF. Bonifacio’s defensive ratings are the worst at SS and 3B and the best at CF. One wonders if Davis now becomes redundant but with little or no trade value, it might be best to keep him.

    I really hope Gose isn’t going to the Mets. Losing d’Arnaud would suck but then again, the Jays have some other promising backstops in the system. In order to get quality, you have to pay premium prices and if the Dickey gets extended, then I would be okay with d’Arnaud getting traded. Otherwise, no.

    My 2 fucking cents.

  78. Cut and paste job of Professor Parks’ scouting report on d’Arnaud, from his recent piece on the Jays farm system:

    1. Travis d’Arnaud
    Position: C
    DOB: 02/10/1989
    Height/Weight: 6’2’’ 195 lbs.
    Bats/Throws: R/R
    Drafted/Acquired: 1st round, 2007 draft (Phillies), Lakewood High School (Lakewood, CA)
    2012 Stats: .333/.380/.595 at Triple-A Las Vegas (67 games)
    The Tools: 5 hit; 6 power potential; 6 arm; 5+ glove

    What Happened in 2012: A knee injury ended his season before he could climb to the majors, but the 23-year-old backstop is ready to take his turn on the biggest stage.

    Strengths: Balanced skill-set; shows above-average bat speed; hands/hips work well; good contact ability; ability to drive to all fields; swing characteristics for power production; good lift and leverage to swing; profiles as above-average hitter for position; quality receiver; good catch and throw skills; arm strength is 6; good body for position; makeup for success on both sides of the ball.

    Weaknesses: Setup can get noisy; aggressive approach; tendency to pull-off balls on outer-third; hit tool might only play at 5; game power might play under plus; can play fast behind the plate, lose accuracy on throws, rush footwork.

    Overall Future Potential: 6; first-division player

    Explanation of Risk: Low risk; some injuries on resume; ready for primetime

    Fantasy Future: Could develop into top-shelf bat at position, with .275-plus batting average and 17-25 HR power potential.

    The Year Ahead: If fully healthy, d’Araud is ready for the major league challenge, with a mature bat and a game-ready skill-set behind the plate. His biggest hurdle will be the adjustment against major-league quality pitching, as his approach and setup both show signs of vulnerability. Some sources see d’Arnaud as future all-star, and the dearth of above-average hitters at the position could make that a reality if his tools find full utility.

    Major league ETA: 2013

  79. “@Joelsherman1: Confirmed: #Bluejays package D’Arnaud + OF Davis for Dickey + Ike Davis #Mets”

  80. Heyman says the Mets rejected Gose/JPA package

    Will work on a deal with D’Arnaud once they figure out all the additions

  81. That scouting report for TDA is underwhelming. People act like hes the next Harper or Trout, but based on what I have read about him, he seems to be “pretty good for a catcher” but then as a catcher, he has average defence. Seems to me that if you have good hitters at all your positions and all things being equal, I would rather have a ++ defensive catcher that cant hit at all than a good hitter for the position with alright D. Seems theres more value to be squeezed from the defensive side of the position, especially in the American League. NOt that JPA is a + defender, but I almost think his bombs might be more valuable than a .275 avg., especially if he learns to walk more.

    • could be Travis Snider 2.0 or he could be Buster Posey

      he will probably be somewhere imbetween

      • he’s almost certain to be an everyday player at this point

        the watermark for catchers is so low, he’ll have every opportunity to fail and people will still love him

      • scouts acknowledged that posey had an 80 hit tool when he was in the minors. Highest ive seen put on d’arnaud is a 60. His upside is more miguel montero than buster posey.

    • Mets are probably convinced D’Arnaud is second coming of Piazza, let them run with that

      D’Arnaud clearly has the best well rounded tools but it’s already been mentioned a couple times that his injury prone nature could end up turning him into a Joe Mauer – amazing for several years, then a 1b/DH changeover. Now that’s nothing bad, Mauer rakes whereever he plays, but the Twins needed a healthy Mauer to compete every day for them behind the plate where his value was most useful

      For all the JPA hate, he has been durable

      • D’Arnaud is not injury prone. His two injuries were freak injuries. There’s a huge difference between the nagging chronic back, leg and inflammation injuries that Mauer deals with and tearing a thumb on a foul tip and having an infielder land on your leg when sliding into 2nd base like D’Arnaud has.

      • JPA has played for two years… Mauer was behind the dish longer than that and winning batting titles. What a bizarre comp.

      • Seriously, I think when it comes to sports talk, I hate the term “injury prone” more than anything. Injuries are a part of sports and yeah, a guy can have bad knees or a bad back, but in general, every player in every sport is injury prone. Sure theres your Trevor Linden and Brent Favre everyonce in a while, but those guys are anomolies as are guys who get hurt constantly. Basically, with the exception of a few ouliers – like the top and botton 2% – all players have relatively the same chance of being injured. THeres no way TDA can be put in the Dustin McGowen outlier catagory and thus calling him injury prone is just very nonsensical.

  82. Knobler ” Dickie traded to Red Sox for Salty and two C level prospects”….breaking

  83. The Mets and the New York media are treating Dickey like Boston would

  84. Red Sox Nearing Deal For R.A. Dickey

    By Mike Axisa

    Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/Red Sox nearing-deal-for-ra-dickey.html#WTcY0sV3DWaIYibv.99

  85. Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com says the two sides have agreed that Salty can be the centerpiece of the trade after the Mets rejected a Gose/J.P. Arencibia package
    Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/red-sox-nearing-deal-for-ra-dickey.html#WTcY0sV3DWaIYibv.99

  86. In all the years (many ha) of following my fav teams in all sports, I cannot recall an off-season like this ever. It’s truly been a blast.

  87. Posted this in the wrong area…..here’s how i see it….. It’s hard enough to project one season in baseball, let alone multiple years. Just because Tampa had a ton of young talent work out in their favour (having a few first and second overall guys in the mix like Price and Upton didn’t hurt), doesnt mean its a formula for guaranteed success. The only philosophy, unfortunately, that correlates with winning, is spending money. Never any guarantees with that either, because money can be spent foolishly too, but over the long haul, it’s the one method of management that’s had the most success. Tons of prospects turn into average players, not because they suddenly became shittier players, but because they were overhyped in the first place. Guys like Price and Upton and even Longoria who was a high pick in a deep draft are the exception to the overhype rule, and their draft position justifies it. And even if youre banking on that, you need to be really really bad for several years to get guys like that (Nationals are in the same conversation). The Jays haven’t been as bad as those teams once were, and likely wont be in the near future, so don’t expect franchise guys like Harper, price, Strasburg, longoria, etc to come up through the Jays’ ranks. AA is making the best out of his current prospects’ perceived values, many of whom might not live up to the hype anyways. By showing his flexibility to make deals like this, especially in a market where free agency is a challenge at best, tells me he could very well be the best GM in all of baseball.

    • I could not agree with this more if I wrote it myself, which I almost did. Its the exact Reason Brian Burke is doing such a good job with the Leafs. Elite players arent falling into his lap, but he goes out and gets Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf, now hes got a core that rivals anyones without ever getting the #1 pick.

      • I can’t tell if you’re joking.

        • Im totally serious. The only reason people bitch about the job Burke is doing is because thats the consensus derrived from mouth breathing idiots who wouldnt know hockey or critical thinking even if you thought their job was based on the two cough cough stevesimons etc.

          I am completely serious. AA and Burke are doing elite level jobs in their respective sports and soon Toronto will have a decade of awesome teams to make up for the horseshit of the last decade, team wise.

      • I don’t think he is, but he sure should be.

      • jimmy is my favorite troll account here

        he posts tsn.ca comments @ DJF to save us a few mouse clicks

        • I find it so amusing that if you ever bother post comments on the internet, if you aren’t following the consensus of the majority, you are labeled a troll very quickly.

          For the record, I enjoy this site, I have for at least 3 years, I like to talk about baseball and I try to be respectful. If I think a little differently, its possible I am just smarter than average as opposed to trying to get a rise out of strangers, something which has about zero appeal to me by the way.

          • “its possible i am just smarter than average”

            Or in some Matrix-like mindfuck you are actually so far below average in regards to baseball/hockey knowledge that you don’t know which way is up?

            “Heres what I hate about baseball today: its all about potential and stats and bullshit. JPA is awesome. He’s a bomb hitting catcher who provides decent defence. He is young and will probably get his obp and walk rate up a bit, but bottom line, a 25 hr catcher is better than alright. Plus, we;ve already got attached to him. I’m a fan, not an invester and I prefer keeping Arrencibia over Daunald anyway. As for Rasmus, he’s like my favorite player and his potential is off the charts and even if he’s peaked, hes an above average centre fielder with power, swagger and cool hair/accent. Again, I am a fan. Both players should stay on the Jays for the rest of their careers as far as I’m concerned. I hope they trade both Dickey and Gose just so my two favorite players not named Jose or Roy can remain with my team.”

            And in the words of Richard Sherman… “You ate the wrong pill… MY BRUTHA!”

      • Bit of a stretch to compare Burkes job and AA’s job, but the aggressive trade approach is similar. The cupboards were bare when Burke arrived, and he didn’t necessarily take advantage of tanking to get Hall or Seguin. Very few teams had worse outlooks than the Leafs when he came in, and he didn’t have a Halladay to help restart the engine, or a Bautista to keep it warm. Just Kaberle really, which wasn’t really that much. So instead of tanking (which an egomaniac like him would likely be adverse to do anyways) he traded draft picks to get Kessel, but still had a long way to go. Risky move considering what I said earlier – they were a team still projected to finish close to the basement. Kessel was coming off of off season shoulder surgery and wasnt coming back until November sometime. In most drafts, theres typically a big difference between the first couple picks and the eight or ninth pick, and if the Leafs had the team to even finish closer to 20th overall, the trade would have been a steal. I think the Kessel deal created a domino effect in trying to continually get better by force rather than manage assets diligently. He got Gustavsson, made the Phaneuf deal. In a cap system, the deals you don’t make are as important as the deals you do make, and Phaneuf had his fair share of red flags. The best move he ever made was the Lupul-Gardiner move, but clearly when you still are deficient in other areas, especially centre ice, you’re still not a very good team. Burke is trying to fast forward a rebuild that should have truly started from the very bottom and sacrificed a few more years of futility ( like the Oilers are doing) for several years of success. He’ll end up with a mediocre team, at best. AA was the recipient of a respectable 500 team, with some assets there. Still, until the Marlins trade, his pitching was very questionable. Pretty sure coming into this offseason he was anticipating trying for second tier free agents and dealing some of his hyped up farm for more pitching. Then the marlins deal happened, which came out of nowhere. Everything changed from there on in. Melky signed on board. Now suddenly he’s feeling like wow, the 2013 roster looks a lot better, but there’s still some holes,so the timing is right to move the stockpiled assets, which came from the very start of his tenure. That’s the difference.

  88. Once they finalize the rest of the players involved, it’s believed Dickey will talk about an extension with Boston.
    Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/Red-Sox-nearing-deal-for-ra-dickey.html#WTcY0sV3DWaIYibv.99

  89. Since you do not appreciate humor I am off to work my majic on the Mets board.

  90. I kept clicking on john farrell’s brother’s links believing they were true.

  91. I’d rather EJax at 4/50M and d’Arnaud at dirt cheap than Dickey at 3/31M + JPA… that’s just my opinion

    • And you know for a fact that Jackson would come here? No, you don’t, not everyone wants to come too Toronto.

      • John did not want to come to Toronto….too many hillbillies.

      • The thing is that the Dickey we have seen over the last few years could perhaps win playoff games by himself, whereas Jackson has always been awful in the playoffs. That might be jumping the gun a bit, first they have to make the playoffs, but I see Dickey as a huge secret weapon and game changer. Jackson is a guy that will pull his weight but that’s about it.

        • I ave to agree that being able to throw out 2 fireballers, a horse in MB and then fuck em up with dickey would be huge in a playoff series, but I feel like if we do this trade, we’re gonna suck DICK in 3 years.. but if we won the WS i probably wouldnt give a shit.. as long as we didnt take 20 years between being good again

          • In 3 years Sanchez, Syndergaard, Gose, and other prospects will probably be ready. Plus AA never stands still.

      • I’m sure he would sign and if not I bet Marcum woudl sign with us… I just think that there’s no point completely mortgaging the future… if your gonna trade away your top prospect why not make it bigger and get Price?

        • While D’Arnaud may turn out to be a star player, trading him now doesn’t mean the Jays can’t/won’t have a different new star player in three years. Hopefully this offseason is a sign that we won’t have to rely solely on the farm system in the future.

          • They’ll always have a star prospect. Whether in fact that prospect keeps that status when he gets to the show: we wont know till he gets there- IF he gets there.

  92. Martino now reporting that Gose is NOT part of the deal. Some scouts saying the Mets should of pushed for Gose because they’re not high on TDA’s defense. Interesting…

  93. While I obviously don’t like the idea of losing TDA, 2 things make it easier to swallow.

    1. While I doubt the Mets would add Harvey or even Wheeler to the deal, someone like Davis or Murphy could help upgrade another position on the 2013 roster.

    2. AA has a pretty good track record of trading “top prospects” including Brett Wallace & Zack Stewart. He has yet to trade a prospect who has come back to bite him. Sure, TDA is a different animal, but the fact that he is willing to trade him makes me think AA may value him less than the industry.

    I think AA has earned the benefit of the doubt and, fuck, this 2013 team is gonna be damn good.

    • Good point about Wallace and Stewart. People also have to remember the return for those guys wasn’t someone of Dickey’s stature/worth either.

      • Exactly.

        I mean the guy only makes $5 million in 2013 and a reasonable/conservative estimate probably has him woth 4 wins and $20+ million in 2013 alone.

        I get that people won’t like giving up a big piece of the Halladay deal (though he was really the 3rd most valuable piece at the time), but he’s also going to cost less than half as much as Halladay contract-wise.

        Plus, you know, I’d be shocked if there isn’t at least one team option attached to the contract.

  94. If R.A. Dickey is the centerpiece of a trade involving D’Arnaud and Gose I’ll be pretty disppointed.

    The guy has three winning seasons in his entire career as a major league pitcher. He has only been worth 3 WAR since 2010. Last year was the only year of his career that he had less than a 1.1 WHIP and 8.5 H/9. It also was the first time in roughly 10 years that the guy had above 6.0 K/9.

    Factor in the friendly pitchers’ parameters of Citi Field and his age and I don’t see how anyone can expect the same level of production in 2013.

    I’ll admit the guy is a great story given the obstacles he has overcome. He seems to be very eloquent based on the interviews I’ve heard. And he’ll probably sell a few tickets given the hardware hes just collected. However, as its currently being discussed I really am suspect of this move and hope it doesn’t come to fruition.

    • Dickey has actually averaged 4 WAR over his last three seasons. His WHIP was still pretty good in 2010 and 2011. Who is to say he will fall off a cliff from his 8.9 k/9 from last season? He could still post a 7 or 8 k/9 and he also doesn’t give up walks much for a knuckleballer. If Dickey can give the Jays any of his 2010, 2011, or 2012 seasons then he is an extremely valuable commodity.

      • Fair argument. I think I may be looking at a different calculation of WAR (I was looking at fangraphs).

        I would argue that his history tends to indicate that he will certainly normalize to a more 5-6 k/9 pitcher next year given that’s where he was at each of his prior 5 mlb seasons (and that’s being generous). You are absolutely right that his BB/9 is pretty strong given that he’s a knuckleballer.

        I don’t know, agree to disagree, but I just have a hard time believing that a breakout season at age 37 is anything other than a flash in the pan. Of course if he provides you with that type of production he’s valuable. I’m just more inclined to believe that it would be very bold to project him at those levels.

        From a dollar standpoint (if Dickey sticks to his current demands) it’s almost a similar situation to Bautista. A brilliant single season is rewarded with a very fair contract. However, the fact that the prospect cost is so high makes me hesitant.

  95. We better not get Dickey blocked.

  96. First thing I’d do if I’m AA is bring Dickey to florida and get Dickey to show all the guys the Jays drafted in 2012 that signed for 5,000 the Knuckleball.

  97. So this year we’ve traded for Reyes, Johnson, Buehrle, Bonifacio, Buck, Rogers and now maybe Dickey.

    Yet we still likely have 3 of our top 6 prospects from last year and a stronger manager?

  98. Not going to lie to you guys, if we land Dickey, and already have Johnson, I would hope (but only for shits and giggles) that they try to get Chien-Ming Wang. Come on, Wang, Johnson AND Dickey?? Hilarious.

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