Hold the phone, what’s this? Mike Puma of the New York Post has some juicy details about the R.A. Dickey trade talks, and a deal that was “on the table” this morning, which… well, let’s just see what he’s saying before we go calling it nuts, OK?

Except… before that even, let’s all take a deep damn breath and think for a second about what “on the table” means.

No, I mean it. Think about what it means, please.


Puma’s Post colleague Joel Sherman offers some much needed sense…

So… that’s crazy. But not necessarily in the “oh my fuck he can’t possibly do it” way, I don’t think. At least not until we hear some more names here– or until we get clarification as to whether “on the table” actually means something the Jays were seriously considering, or something the Mets floated and then got shot down.

It’s crazy because it’s huge, and because Syndergaard and d’Arnaud are such huge talents.

But so is Dickey, and if this really is something resembling the deal, I think we can expect that the player coming back from the Mets will go a long way towards evening it. And I think it’s reasonable to start thinking that the Jays might be looking for a big pre-arb arm who has options and can be slated for Buffalo– of which the Mets have a few.

Jon Niese is a name a bunch of people are throwing out there, but I just don’t see how it can possibly be a fit unless you’re moving someone like Ricky Romero– and while I very likely would take Niese over Romero, I highly, highly doubt that’s a thing the Jays are about to do.

Zack Wheeler and Matt Harvey could fit the bill, but they’re much too good for the Mets to be giving up along with Dickey, I suspect, meaning everybody is looking to someone like Jeurys Familia or Jenrry Mejia– a couple of hard-throwing 23-year-olds who might be best suited for the bullpen, thanks to a lack of secondary stuff, but who are still starters for now, and who have crazy power arms that surely must tantalize the Jays’ front office.

There’s certainly value in having someone at the Triple-A level, with so much of the Jays’ best minor league prospects so far away– and with the move out of Las Vegas possibly changing the development path, as the club no longer has to try to avoid sending their best arms to the PCL. Syndergaard is a fantastic arm, of course, but add one of those Mets pitchers and you actually have someone to call on, other than Chad Jenkins, Deck McGuire, Joel Carreno or making the big reach down to New Hampshire for Sean Nolin, in the event that a starter or two gets hurt– and also possibly to help bridge the gap to guys like Nolin, Aaron Sanchez, Robert Osuna, Matt Smoral and Dan Norris in the case that the club isn’t able to keep Josh Johnson around.

That said, expanding the deal to include Syndergaard isn’t going to do anything to make those losing their minds at the thought of giving up d’Arnaud feel any better, but so what? Their hissy fits at this juncture are just collateral damage in the Jays’ grand scheme of hoarding and lionizing prospects– thereby building a prospect-frothing fan base– then dealing from this massive pool of strength in order to improve the big league club in ways, and on a timeline, they’d have been incapable of doing otherwise. The club has shifted gears, acting like the Yankees and the Red Sox used to– with a supreme confidence that whatever gets depleted from the system will be built back, and that the pipeline is so strong as to be unshakable.

That’s not to say it doesn’t hurt to think of what maybe headed to New York, but the big league club is so ridiculously better for it in the near-term, and with at least Dickey (presumably), Buehrle, Romero and Morrow locked in for the next few years– and possibly Johnson before all is said and done, too– the necessity of holding a Syndergaard in the hopes that he can break through into their midst likely is lessened, given the fantastic short-term gain, and the host of other lottery ticket arms the Jays are still holding.

It’s horribly reductive to make blanket statements against a deal like this by pointing out that all prospects are unproven and the attrition rate is staggeringly high– you really need to look at each player you’re referring to on his own, I think– but it sure is funny to see so much consternation over these guys possibly being moved, so soon after the Jays got Brad Stinkin’ (see what I did there?) for Travis Snider– as stark a reminder of how hard prospect value can fall as we’ve seen around here in a long, long time. I’m certainly not saying Syndergaard and d’Arnaud will bust– I think there’s a good chance that they don’t– but this is by leaps and bounds a better return than the club got by holding onto their Great White Hope, and these prospects are certainly no more “can’t miss” than he was.

Not every prospect is destined to be Travis Snider, but at some point on all of them you have to roll the dice. Do you sell at what you think is the high point– say, offering David Wright for a half season of Jose Cruz Jr.? Or do you hold them tightly and refuse whatever ridiculous offer comes your way– like someone trying to pry your studs Jesse Foppert, Jerome Williams and Kurt Ainsworth away with some bum named Halladay.

You know?

Uh… I don’t know. R.A. Dickey!

(And maybe one of those other pitcher. Amazin Avenue’ has interesting posts on both Jeurys Familia and Jenrry Mejia, which you should probably go ahead and read).


Image via Simon Druker.

Comments (905)

  1. BTW everyone should simmer and stop flying off the handle with only the speculation of some high price bullshit artists to fuel the fire. Wait until the deal is made and then flip the fuck out if need be but right now there’s nothing locked in and we know very little so everyone relax.

  2. Well said.

  3. “Have not heard anything related to a snag, but did hear resolution tonite beginning to sound unlikely. Caveat was added of “you never know”


  4. If the Mets are insisting upon Syndergaard and d’Arnaud being the main pieces for Dickey alone, then they can go fuck off.

  5. notice how all the leaks are coming from the same place?

    i wonder how annoyed AA is from all this. hopefully enough to step back.

    Jays have more leverage than one might expect, their rotation isn’t in shambles with out dickey, and dickey isnt going to resign with the mets easily.

    • although the Blue Jays website said that they were Dickey front runners. also who knows how accurate the leaks are, most of them have contradicted each other at some point.

  6. This is worse than darvish mania
    This deal ain’t happen
    Disappointment will turn to rage

    • haha there is no avoiding rage on any front at this point

      if deal is cancelled some fans are in rage

      if d’Arnaud and maybe more is traded, some fans will rage

  7. Kevin Gray says there is a 3 way deal now in the works with the Mets and Marlins. Jays will get Dickey, David Wright, Josh Thole and Daniel Murphy. Mets get Syndergaard, Sanchez, D’Arnaud and Jimenez, Marlins get Janssen, Oliver, Parnell and Wheeler.

  8. It’s going to be awkward for Alderson if he doesn’t make this deal. Ever since this deal was rumoured NY media have vilified Dickey. Alderson should be much more motivated then AA. I hope Alex steps back and plays hard to get.

  9. Familia looks like he may be kinda like Alvarez but with a better breaking pitch.

  10. Waiting this one out sucks…need to add more alcohol.

    Just spitballin…but I am hoping AA used a throw-away cell and called Seattle to see about prying the King away one last time because if TDA and Sydergaard is what it take for a Dickey why not throw in Sanchez and another top 10 or two to make this one epic.

  11. Screw this already.

    I just downloaded Knuckleball.

    The next 1 1/2 hours will be rage and anxiety-free (except for the Masshole footage of course)–the stuff dreams are made of.

    I’d appreciate some completion, and maybe even closure after the credits roll.

  12. Last Jays knuckleballer… Tom Candiotti? Anyone I’m forgetting since then?

  13. Regardless of whether this happens or not, I guarantee you AA is not happy about these JPR Leaks. This is class JPR using the media to influence a trade like he did with Philadelphia. This is not how AA likes to work. That alone may be good enough for AA to back out of the deal and say i dont like negotiating this way, go deal with Baltimore, Angels, or Texas…Im out!

    Also of note, AA mentioned very clearly in his press conference introducing Gibbons last month, the worst decisions he has made to date have been the once that were influenced by the media and him not going with his gut. My guess is the JA Happ deal where everyone told him he needed to get a pitcher when he shouldnt have with nothing on the market. Now the Mets are trying to use the media to force a trade or increase expectations in the Toronto market. My guess is AA is not having any of that this time around, and will either back out, or come back firing with a crazy 8 player deal or something, “Oh, you’re not doing this without Travis D’Arnaud? Ok. I have a list of names i want too.”

  14. MLB Trade Rumours update:

    “Rubin heard from a source that it’s unclear if there will be resolution tonight (Twitter links). A Mets official indicated the same to Puma, saying “there is a lot to this.”

  15. yeah yeah but what about the NHL lockout, eh?


  16. Weren’t we just doing this a year ago with Darvish? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and expecting a different result. We are all insane

  17. Me thinks this deal isn’t as done as we’ve been led to believe.

    And I’m actually cool with that.

    Dickey would be awesome. But not trading TDA is pretty awesome too.

    When the roster is this good already it really is win win.

  18. If TDA and Syndegaard are in this, doesn’t it almost have to be either Harvey or (more likely) Wheeler in the deal?

    I mean, would AA add a top 100 prospect (who could be top 20 – 30 by next year) just to get Josh Thole or Ike Davis in this?

    If it is Wheeler, that makes this a lot more appealing as he is arguably just as good of a prospect as TDA. Maybe a bit more of an injury risk since he is a pitcher, but TDA has had quite a few injuries so far in his pro career.

    So if it works out to be Syndegaard and fringe pieces that is not unlike the JPA and fringe pieces trade a lot of us wanted to do from the beginning.

    And Wheeler, Nolin, Jenkins & McGuire is damn fine depth to cover for injuries.

    • Uhh Wheeler is just as good a prospect if not better than TDA, no arguably about it.

      Uhh Syndegarrd has a way higher ceiling than JPA though I know pieces have to be moved for this trade.

      Uhh Nolin’s probably not pitching in big leagues for at least a year

      Other than that, keep up the great work

      • Thanks for your professional scouting opinion; heaven forbid I qualify it with “arguably”.

        Syndegaard could also be a reliever (which scouts have said) or absolutely nothing like so many other pitching prospects in the low minors.

        Nolin is pretty much where Hutchison was a year ago.

        But thanks for putting the extra effort to be an asshole.

        • Thanks I try. Just haven’t heard anyone put TDA above Wheeler so see no way he’s coming in a trade.

          Other points are fair enough though even if I don’t agree

          • Holy shit, except for K.Law who put TDA top ten in MLB. He’s a better prospect than Wheeler, no debate.

    • All you dummies talking about Wheeler or Harvey have lost your mind. That would not make sense from a Mets perspective. Did you read the post at all? It is obviously a Florida thing again. If Mets want top talent deal, needs to get better. I wouldnt be shocked if it was TDA, Syndergaard,LInd,Buck for Dickey,Thole, Parnell, Ike Davis and either a Famillia or Flores.

      • But you could argue that trading a top 10 prospect for Dickey AND then adding Syndegaard to get a bunch of middling pieces makes no sense from AA’s perspective.

        I’m suggesting Alderson said something to the effect of “TDA has to be in this” and AA asked for the trade to be expanded to include Wheeler/Harvey.

        If you want to look at it this way, it’s almost as though AA agrees to add TDA & Wheeler into the trade contigent upon Dickey being in it as well. As if these were 2 seperate trades.

        Far fetched theory, I know, but if it’s TDA & Syndegaard in this I do think you could see it.

    • Oh hell yeah, if Wheeler is included most fans will be stoked. (Once they find out who he is) But obviously that’s a big “if”. If its a tier B prospect on the other hand, that’s going to be a lot harder to swallow.

  19. Maybe this lack of news except there might not be any more news for tonight news is actually good news for those of us who want this thing to be over with. Maybe its just AA and his lieutenants talking to Alderson and his so no time or opportunity for someone else to leak something bc its just ultimately the handful of guys who make the decisions who are aware of whats happening.

  20. Mets are looking for prospects, not looking to trade them away. They’re not trading Wheeler. Perhaps Bobby Parnell? I think he’d be a great addition to the pen, and might be the piece AA wants back if he’s including Syndegaard. Hes a fucking flamethrower. Plus, his name would just naturally roll off of Buck Martinez’s tongue with that texan accent of his. We can only speculate, but almost certain Wheeler isn’t going to be included, it makes no sense from the NYMs perspective.

    • Is including Noah necessary to get another bp arm???

      • Maybe Alderson, ricciardi and co are trying to push the envelope…. They know how badly AA wants RA…. They’re seeing how far they can push…. I doubt it was AA who brought up Syndegaard. I’m guessing it went someone like…
        AA: we’ll give you Gose and JPA for your aging knuckleballer who refuses to sign an extension with you guys
        NYM: fuck that, Gose sucks. We want D’Arnaud or no deal
        AA: you greedy motherfuckers. Ok fine. Then we want more back if we’re giving you TDA. And we want a guarantee that knucklemaster will sign an extension with us. Lets expand this motherfucker.
        NYM: well we’re only interested in prospects. How about that syndegaard kid?.
        AA: this is all JPs fault, that greedy prick. Ok we’ll now were really gonna expand shit. Since we want the trophy next October, and our pen is our biggest weakness now. We want your best reliever, Parnell, and we need you to take our overpaid catcher that we were forced to take in the Miami deal, and we need thole to catch that knuckleball every five games. Oh and we want JP ricciardi to stop saying shit to the media. And we might want another guy too, we need time to break and chat
        NYM: yeah let’s break, but no promises on JP. Nobody can tame a weasel.

  21. I think we should all relax. First, the Mets will not be dealing Wheeler. Next, we have to assume that AA will not go into massive overpay territory (although a slight overpay may be required, given Dickey’s very realistic contract request). This means that if he’s including TDA and Nose Snygen, the return will have to be commensurate with that price.

    Lets trust in AA. He has a great track record. He won’t get talked into anything unreasonable…

    • Not sure why everyone keeps saing there “no way” the Mets include Wheeler.

      Maybe the Jays have said a Wheeler/Snygen swap has to happen if they want TDA for Dickey.

      Snygen is similar to Wheeler, just a year behind developmentally. Mets will need a couple years until they compete anyway and Snygen will likely have an extra year of control. Higher risk sure, but not that much of a step down from Wheeler.

  22. I actually hope this deal falls apart

  23. I know one thing, after this experience I could be reconsidering my exclusive membership in the Twitter.

  24. well, look on the bright side, apparently the Yankees are considering trading for Vernon Wells hahaha

  25. It seems the Yankees are kicking the tires on VW.

    • Woah!

    • i thought they were trying to DUMP payroll ????

      • The Yankees saying theyre trying to cut and dump payroll is like the crack addict saying theyre off the crack, sure it might last a little while but sooner or later itll be back.

        Personally, the yankees might do well first half but once the dog days come and the season hits the 90 game mark or so, the old dudes will start breaking and as of now they have absolutely nothing for contingency depth on that team. If ANYTHING happens to anyone in that starting line up, theyre going to have problems.

  26. I was just on different Mets blogs, and Flores has come up as a possibility. He can smack a ball, supposedly, and has the potential to play first. Likely he’ll ripen in 2014, just as Lind is done……

    • kinda looks like Miggy, also from VZ

      • I’d love it, he can rake.

      • he’s played 3b/SS – maybe longterm prospect for 2b? will be 24 in 3 years from now right as Izturis’ contract expires

        i still think Bau becomes 1b at some point in the future

        • He’s a 1b/3b in the future and… not a good one at that.

          Definitely can hit but is a butcher in the field.

          Not against him necessarily just don’t think he’s a long term fit at 2b.

          • He came up as a SS and only just turned 21.He played games at second this year. I wouldn’t write him off of 2-bag just yet.

            BA said his bat is good enough that he could make an aperance this year in MLB.

    • Lind was done 3 years ago

  27. AA has to be livid about the media being so involved in this deal but being that the reports have begun to slow down to almost a halt I would guess that AA probably made a call to the Mets and said “look, someone in your camp is about to fuck up this trade so tighten the lips or were done here”. The mets being close to acquiring some major pieces for the future of the team probably then told everyone in their camp to shut the fuck up while only looking right at JPR lol. Fuck JPR in his stupid incompetent ass.

    Moving on… to all the people that are dreaming about Wheeler… doubtful. Personally I think its going to be Dickey, Parnell and a good prospect for Darnaud, Syndergaard, Happ/Cecil and another B grade prospect. In that deal the Jays would get a great starter who would extend for well under the market value (think about Anibal Sanchez), the Jays would get a complete stud reliever whos signed cheap long term and what we can hope is a very solid prospect. This is a win for the Jays…

    As I said before,,, all of us, me included were yelling, screaming, begging and protesting to have AA make moves. Many of us were calling for AA to get off his throne atop his pile of prospects and make something real happen. Well… now he is doing it so in reality all of us should just shut the fuck up and sleep in the bed weve made for ourselves.

    • If the prospect is Familia I’d go for this. Maybe even Nimmo or Meija.

      • I would almost be willing to bet my next paycheck that AA has to have Parnell in this deal. Signed cheap, still fairly young, throws upper 90s, etc etc…

        As for prospects… i know very little about Mets prospects. Searched around a bit and realized that even with the pending trade I still have a very hard time giving a fuck about the mets.

        • I’d be my next paycheque that YOU have to have Parnell in this deal.

          Adding Syndegaard to get a reliever doesn’t really make sense.

          • it makes sense to get the entire deal done. The Mets dont want to give up Parnell either.

            Parnell + Dickey fills all of AA’s pitching needs. add in a prospect, then we can stomach losing syndergaard, d’arnaud and hopefully something else not too valuable

          • @Jimmy

            That’s implying that AA is not only willing to give up TDA because he is so desperate to get Dickey, but that he is so desperate he is adding Parnell & Syndegaard.

            Or that he values the ML reliever over the high ceiling minor leaguer, which is possible.

            I don’t buy it but I guess we’ll know shortly.

          • Didnt say theyd add syndergaard for Parnell, Im saying I gather AA would like Parnell in the Jays pen.

      • For Syndergaard? Fuck no way. Meija can’t stay healthy and Familia is at best a MLB middle reliever.

    • … Mets probably had to Skype JPR in Boston to tell him to STFU

  28. Dickey + Parnell pretty much rounds out all the Jays’ pitching needs. If Oliver wants one last chance at a ring he rounds out the lineup nicely. I hope this deal gets done, and soon. I have faith in AA unlike the people shitting their pants over vague twitter updates.

    • I don’t see AA overpaying just because this trade can “complete” his offseason checklist.

      • well you brought up overpaying not me. I could see how AA would be very interested in some of the Mets assets though

  29. I don’t know if it’s exciting or frustrating the fact we don’t actually know anything for sure. For all we know the trade won’t even happen or we’ll be getting Santana and his salary or something else unexpected.

  30. If it really is 7 players, though it probably is a bunch of moving parts, here’s a guess:

    TDA, Syndegaard, Happ & Buck for an unextended Dickey, Wheeler & Thole.

    In the context of this trade, TDA would be worth more a little more than Wheeler as that is who Alderson wants and he would gladly trade Wheeler for TDA straight up, though AA wouldn’t.

    I also will guess Dickey won’t be extended and that AA is comfortable with the knowledge of what Dickey wants and will decide if it makes sense.

    After all, he was more than willing to take Johnson for just 1 year. I see no reason why he wouldn’t be comfortable doing the same with a 38 year old.

  31. maybe the hold up really is a three team trade. and since everyone wants to crap out stupid proposed deals, why not get into the fun myself? so here it goes:

    Toronto: Brett Anderson and Ike Davis
    Oakland: Dickey and Nose Syndegaard
    Mets: TDA and one of Oakland’s outfielders

    you can add prospects/relievers/money going either way. but that was my shot at a stupid trade proposal

    • TDA and Nose for Ike and Anderson??? Sounds awesome…

    • What a fukin stupid proposal,
      Our top 2 prospects for a 1B who is like Lind( cannot hit LHP) only 2 years younger and a glorified shitballer-you gotta be workin for the NYM’s bozo Riccardi

  32. My guess is if AA was holding up the Marlins trade because of the word he had given to Mathis, the Mets asking for multiple prosepcts may give him the same pause for thought.

    If the Mets are suddenly expanding the deal to include multiple prospects, prospects AA likley has seen grow under him, and been given a similar “word” too previously that they are going to be great Jays’ players, AA might be getting those same thoughts he had with Mathis.

    Thus, him starting to back away from this one simply on that “internal conflict” basis, can explain some of the delay or if it falls apart.

    • AA is also patient, which Alderson is too. Neither is going to pull the trigger unless the deal is what they’re looking for at the right price. I bet they’ve tossed around the names of a dozen or more players

  33. well i doubt anything happens tonight at this point

    its interesting to learn a bit about how trades evolve, especially with AA. Are the two parties talking in person? Is it all over the phone? Have they been trying to work this out for the last 48 hours, or the last week? Do they talk 8 hours a day in long discussions? Or do they discuss the deal on and off?

    • I imagine it’s over the phone, and probably dozens of fairly short calls and then the gms go back to their assistants and scouts to discuss.

  34. The team seems pretty much set for the next few years already so it appears we’re seeing the last few pieces being put together.

    1B 4 yrs EE
    2B 4 yrs Izturis
    SS 5 yrs Reyes
    3B 5 yrs Lawrie
    LF 2 yrs Melky
    CF 2 yrs Rasmus
    RF 4 yrs Bautista
    C 4 yrs JPA
    DH 1 yrs 3 Lind
    BN 2 yrs Bonafacio

    SP 1 yrs JJ
    SP 3 yrs Buehrle
    SP 3 yrs Morrow
    SP 4 yrs Romero
    SP 2 yrs Happ

    • Add in the following (pending a trade):

      OF backup/replacing Rasmus or Melky longterm 6 yrs Gose

      IB/DH emergency/depth backup 6 yrs Cooper

      pitching depth Drabek, Hutch 5 yrs (?)

      they basically have guys ranging from 3-6 years for a nice playoff run at which point the Lansing guys will be coming into the MLB and guys like Lawrie, Gose, Rasmus should be in their prime, should they still be Jays

      At this point, the Jays just need to fill a major piece each year for the next 3-6 years pending anything crazy – they could upgrade OF spot next yr thru re-upping Rasmus, free agent or bring up Gose fulltime, they could upgrade to a better 2b in a year or 2 as Izturis or Boni phase out, pursue a longterm 1b/DH w/ EE etc

      A really nice feeling that the core has finally arrived

  35. Aside from their Dickey conversations, the Mets are looking hard

    This was from the article by Gregor. It made me giggle.

  36. RT @Joelsherman1 But right now it’s Dickey/Thole/prospect (told not elite) for d/Arnaud/Syndegaard/Buck/prospect (told not elite) #Mets #Bluejays

    Get ready folks.

    Get ready.


    • That would be… disappointing. Sure next year would be fun as hell, and the added wins from Dickey would mean a lot to the Jays but, in a vacuum, the Mets win that trade hands down.

      • That;s the thing.

        There is no vacuum here.

        The Jays win 95 games, we don’t even think about this again, do we?

      • Agreed.

        I’m hoping the prospects are a bit in the Jays favor.

        Wheeler would be elite so likely not him.

        Maybe it’s Nimmo for Kevin Pillar?

  37. Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 15m
    But right now it’s Dickey/Thole/prospect (told not elite) for d/Arnaud/Syndegaard/Buck/prospect (told not elite)

    Fuck, if those not elite prospects are a wash, that is quite a bit for Dickey.

  38. Jays lose trade.
    Jays win division.

    I know which one I care about more.

  39. If we could win the WS with the #1657th best catcher of all-time (Baseball Reference) in 1992-1993, then I am definitely OK with JPA as our starting backstop for the upcoming postseason runs. My guess is that if TDA reaches his potential, I think he figures to slot in between a Carlos Santana and Posey 2-3 years from now, which is still great, but I’d grab that Dickey and hold on tight if it means a better chance of winning now.

    • No sir, that’s the 1657th best position player of all time, give the man some credit.

      • LOL, thanks. For what it’s worth I have a lot of respect for the man, WS MVP and Olympic Gold Medal to boot

    • I like the enthusiasm but don’t shit on Borders, he was a beauty. Called a great game, had a great arm and was tough as nails. I don’t even need to mention the wicked stache and World Series MVP do I?

      • Crap now I’ve done it, he’s already down 2 ranks to #1659 in the last 20 minutes. Yes Pat Borders was definitely one of the good ones. Eerily similar OBP and OPS+ as JPA. Let’s hope JPA trends upwards offensively and learns to keep his right hand out of sight from the heat coming his way, especially the bullpen arms!

  40. So Dickey, Thole (and $8m savings, $4m cash from the Florida deal to cover Buck’s contract, but then tossing Buck’s salary in this deal) for D’arnuad Syndegaard.

    If you call the prospects a wash…though I assume the prospect would be someone that the Jays would have no problem dumping, and get from NY what they want position wise, and hopefully groom like they have the current prospect pool.

    Not a move to make if this was the only big Jays move of the offseason, but if the AL East is up for grabs for the next year or two, then adding this piece along with the other big roster moves with Florida, and Cabrera and Jacket Gibbons, then it fits.

    • The thing is that d’Arnaud and Syndergaard is probably half of Felix Hernandez, or someone of that quality

      • half of what it takes to get *

        If you shopped Syndergaard and d’Arnaud together on the market, I think a better return than dickey is possible.

        • The point here is that Dickey is easily the best pitcher available this off-season, and the Jays are trying to win in 2013. Not contend, but WIN. This potential trade would likely mean the Jays win 2 or 3 more games this season. Neither TDA noe Syndergaard will do that for the big league team this year. I’m a Jays _fan_ who was a 13-year old boy whose grandfather had season’s tickets in 92 and 93, and I would happily trade the entire farm system for the chance to see my favourite team play a World Series game.

  41. blech

    i mean if this is what it takes to get Dickey, so be it, but fuck the media duped us into thinking we’d get more

  42. time to extend JJ.. gotta be all in for more than 1 year if were giving up this much

  43. Syndergaard and d’Arnaud for essentially just Dickey?? No other significant piece? Massive overpayment.

  44. Two things:

    1) Sherman says that deal is contingent on an extension.

    2) I think getting someone who’s caught Dickey before (Thole) is smart.

  45. Thole and JPA seem to be polar opposites. JPA – power and K’s, Thole – contact and BB’s. Might actually work nice together.

  46. Now MLBTR says Aaron Sanchez has been discussed. That doesn’t mean anything — at this point, who HASN’T been discussed?

    I’m starting to lean towards this trade not getting done. It’s just been ballooning since the get-go.

    • The Mets are playing hardball and I don’t know if AA bites. It would take massive balls to do this trade. I imagine he sleeps on it.

  47. “the Blue Jays will send the Mets money to help cover Buck’s salary.”

    Not liking this trade more and more by the minute.

    • It would presumably be the money the Marlins sent to the Jays to cover the difference between Buck and Mathis.

      And Thole will make between $1 – $1.5 million through arbitration. So it’s a wash.

      • Still though, they shouldn’t be paying any extra costs if they are giving up that prospect capital.

  48. send cash and give us an elite prospect and i’ll call it a deal

    otherwise, AA’s sleeping on this til church tomorrow haha – need the big G’s advice on this because that would be a ballsy trade

  49. people on the mets blogs are having a field day w/ Sherman’s news:

    “Still waiting for it to be finalized. Some of us will have our day if it is completed. I can wait until then.”

  50. If the latest updates are accurate then this is a terrible deal. Just awful. Sign a fucking free agent and keep the prospects.

  51. AA does not HAVE to make this deal. There will still be lots of other opportunities to obtain one more good starter and the rotation is already looking okay, so he’s not dealing from a position of weakness. I don’t believe he’s going to give two blue chips for just Dickey. I can see him accepting a marginal on-paper loss in the trade to really solidify the rotation, but not something that would be seen as a fleece.

    Either that, or they know something about TDA (and/or Synd) that we and the Mets don’t.

  52. I hope AA shopped the hell out of d’Arnaud & Syndergaard around the league before offering them up for Dickey alone if this truly is the deal…

    That is insanely expensive when you think back to the report of Bogaerts & Bradley being the asking price from Boston. Jeezus…

  53. My thought process is this – look at the one side who’s coming up with the leaks. It just seems a bit too fantasy from the Mets perspective, because AA wouldn’t trade these prospects for nothing in return… I’m betting on Mets leaking to drive up price..

    • It certainly seems weird that it’s just continually escalated, but only on one side. You gotta figure that if it took AA weeks to relent on giving up TDA, then the addition of Syndergaard means something has to come back or the deal falls through.

      • This makes sense.

        If AA finally blinked on moving D’Arnaud it’s really unlikely he’s on tilt and chucking Syndergaard in there too.

        Then again. Maybe Syndergaard and TDA have been the starting point for the Mets all along. Perhaps getting a CY Young winner for one prospect has always been a massive underpay.

  54. Perhaps TDA doesn’t have any ligaments in the lower half of his body.

  55. Let’s just hope that Joel Sherman is full of fucking shit.

    You know, like he was yesterday when he was “told Dickey will not sign an extension with Blue Jays”.

    All Sherman has done is take the characters from the Puma story and add a prospect from each side with a “told not elite”.

    Considering all the fucking bullshit we’ve heard the last 2 days, I think there is a good chance Sherman is pulling this out of his ass so he can be the reporter who broke 5/7ths of the deal.

  56. Think this starts to break down?

    If the reports are right that’s a pretty hefty price.

    Mets have come awfully far with their CY Young winner now though to let it break down.

    Haven’t they?

    I don’t fucking know anymore.

  57. Maybe Osuna’s rise makes Snydergartnerstein somewhat expendable. After the crazy shits AA has made who are we to argue his willingness to trade our highly coveted assets? He is the man who drafted and or traded for them in the first place hence I’m pretty sure he knows exactly what the fuck he is doing.

    Go for it right now. Assemble the best rotation in the league and pair it with one of the most formidable offenses and lets fucking rock!

  58. Stop crying about fucking prospects! I’d rather win for the next three years than hope to win in three years. Jays still have prospects in the lower levels and a high draft pick this year. The farm system will be fine.

    You have to give to get. We’ll get last years Cy Young winner for fucks sakes. Romero went from #1 starting last year to potentially #5.

  59. Get rid of the prospects and lets win in 2013 ! Thats what you play for. You can do your prospect porn in 2015 after the Jays are WS Champs in 2013 and 2014

    • The Jays could very well win 100 games and be the consensus best team in baseball with Dickey.

      It doesn’t change the fact that the playoffs are a fucking crapshoot and going all-in does not guarantee winning the World Series.

      Though this trade would have to make the Jays the front runner to win the division.

      • If they win anywhere close to 100 games, Rogers could give a flying fuck if they win a single playoff game. Imagine the drastic increase in revenue from September attendance numbers alone. It’ll be nice if we’re making use of that 48,000+ capacity.

    • Unless they aren’t WS champs in 2013 or 2014. Then they’ve got an aging team with no one coming up.
      I’ve got nothing against trading from your prospect pool, but that’s an awfully steep price.
      But AA has always talked about sustained success. And, to me, that means striking a balance between going for it this year and having pieces to play with in the coming years. I really don’t believe AA is going to go the three years of contending and then that’s it kind of model.
      But fuck…I don’t know anything anymore.

  60. Sherman tweeted earlier “if d’Arnaud, Syndegaard (#Bluejays Nos. 1, 3 prospects in BA) both in package then prospect #Mets will have to give up will be significant”.

    Now I guess it makes sense for it to be “not-elite” but still “significant”.

    But, still, I’m with the rest of the people on this board. If the not-elite prospects are a wash, this is a pretty big overpayment.

    But it still doesn’t sound like something AA would do so I’ll hold judgement until this is finalized.

    • Well that’s the thing, what’s elite? And what’s significant? Is Wheeler elite and Harvey significant but not elite?

      • The reporters don’t fucking know what’s happening for sure.

        They all have “framework may change” or “details unconfirmed” caveats in every tweet.

        I need to get away from this shit until its official.

  61. The Mets are bargaining from a position of weakness. They’ve burnt bridges with Dickey, and it only makes sense for them to build for the future. They can keep Dickey for a year but they know he will walk.

    Maybe AA is going for:

    JPA + Syndergaard + lesser prospect for Dickey + Thole + minor piece

    that seems more reasonable to me, or if they want d’Arnaud atleast put Gose in instead of Syndergaard. He is arguably our most promising prospect

  62. When I fell asleep at 7:30 I thought the rumor of what they Jays may give up was stupid. Now that I wake up and see what the Jays may be offering now is completely fucking stupid.

    This shit escalated quickly.

  63. The longer that this twists in the wind, the less likely it is that anything will happen at all.

    • the thing is the Mets have essentially no choice but to trade Dickey now or extend him. They could hold on to him for the season, but he will walk or they get much less at the tradeline. I think AA would understand this and is also playing hardball. I hope.

  64. Sherman: “Sense got is that all parties do not sign off on this tonite, maybe not even tomorrow. My best GUESS is Monday. #Mets #Bluejays”

    Translation: “I really don’t know shit about what’s going on”

    There is more to this story than Sherman knows, I am almost certain of this. How would he know precisely what players are involved with the exception of two minor prospects? AA moves fast, and this trade could evolve quite a bit still.

    • whats interesting is that most of this stuff is comign from Sherm and a couple others, I have yet to see Rosenthal and some of the other big names go on about the deal ad nauseum which suggests to me a couple things

      Sherm knows jackshit and is spitballing outside of the framework which we all know now

      the deal is not as imminent and some are taking advantage of this big time to get web hits and clicks

      Mets are so effing desperate they are trying to go through certain reporters to pull out all the stops in this trade

  65. For all we know in MLB, TDA will be more Curtis Thigpen than Buster Posey and Syndergaard will be more Dustin Mcgowan than Roy Halladay. RA is what you wish beyond your wildest dreams someone like Syndergaard will become. CY Young….hmmm ok thank you very much.

    Still have Sanchez, Osuna, Stroman, Nolin, Norris thank you very much. Not to mention Jimenez and Nessy at C.

  66. Thole ain’t that bad for a backup. Lotsa contact, low K’s, high BB’s. Dickey is comparable to Price according to fangraphs and a Cy Young winner.

    TDA might not be as good as we think, JPA had good minor league numbers too. Syndergaard is in A ball. Fucking single A level people.

  67. Whatever the pieces are, the trade will hinge on how long Dickey remains at an elite level. D’Arnaud + Syndergaard + extras is a fair price, or even a win if Dickey is at or near his 2012 level for three years.

    As far as I’m concerned, you gotta dance with the one who brung ya. If that’s the deal AA makes, I trust his judgement enough that it’s a good call.

    Also, let’s keep in mind the Jays had scouts crawling all over MLB games the second half of last year. If they have confidence in Dickey, it’s based in the obsessive analysis we know AA applies to these things.

  68. I have no issue giving up prospects. None at all.

    I said I would have done Hech, Marisnick, Alvarez & Nicolino for one year of Josh Johnson. I probably exagerrated a bit, but I certainly would have done Alvarez, Nicoline and one of Hech/Marisnick without thinking twice.

    But this sounds like insanity if it’s TDA, Syndegaard for Dickey, Thole and the rest is basically a wash.

    TDA & Syndegaard should be able to get something more valuable than Dickey. It should be 80% of what it takes to get someone like Sjarmadizsa.

    I won’t believe it till I see it. It just doesn’t seem like AA, even if he’s trying to take the team over the top.

    • The rumours have changed so much in the last 48 hours I’m not going to believe anything until someone like Rosenthal confirms the players

      • I don’t think we’ve heard anything from the ESPN guys because of the horrible events in Connecticut. Weren’t they asked not to use Twitter until Monday out of respect?

      • @Jimmy

        I agree.

        I mean, probably the healthiest thing for many of us Jays fans is to wait until this is over and not keep refreshing MLBTR.

        But fuck, I just managed to convince myself TDA was fine to give up for 3 years of Dickey.

        Now this Syndegaard/Sanchez shit?

        Fuck, maybe some more info from the TO media would balance this out so I feel better.

    • I really wish Dickey didnt win that Cy Young, now Wilner is saying over and over again “Cy Young Winner” like he’s comparable to Kershaw or something.

  69. Syndergaard and D’Arnaud?

    This is fucked. I know people say don’t fall in love with prospects but that’s reserved for lower tier guys not 2 of our top 3 prospects in a very good system. The Mets will probably even say they got the best 2 guys in their eyes. No way did I think the currency that TDA and Syndergaard together would bring back is R.A. Fuckin Dickey. There’s way too many question marks with Dickey to be purging our top 2 prospects for. Even Aaron Sanchez discussed in this? As Jeff Passan said the Jays are giving up as much or more than the Royals did for Shields. And everybody laughed at the Royals, me included.

    • People laughed at the Royals because they still aren’t close to winning. The Jays are.

      • But deals and returns on trades should be evaluated based on the trade itself, not the situation. If people consider D’Arnaud/Syndergaard to be worth more than Wil Myers/Odorizzi/Montgomery then we are giving up A LOT.

        • Yes and no. When you’re a potential 90+ win team, added wins mean more to you and your trading partners know that. All about leverage.

    • For the most part the laughter directed at the Royals was because most don’t seem them on the verg of the playoffs….Shields is not seen as the last piece. Where Dick is likely that piece for the Jay’s…at this point in time.

      • But if Shields signs the extension theyre talking about he doesn’t have to be a last piece he’s only 31

        • point Scott…check out my new article I author under the sudonym DC. It is explained better there.

  70. Yikes!

    Yankees interested in Vernon Wells – likely because of his 7 for 13 (no walks, natch) lifetime at bats vs. Dickey!

  71. Like a lot of other people are saying, Syndergaard and D’Arnaud, and still more on top of that, is too much.

  72. So we’re at something like this then if it goes through..

    1B 4 yrs EE
    2B 4 yrs Izturis
    SS 5 yrs Reyes
    3B 5 yrs Lawrie
    LF 2 yrs Melky
    CF 2 yrs Rasmus
    RF 4 yrs Bautista
    DH 1 yrs Lind
    C 4 yrs JPA
    BN 2 yrs Bonafacio
    BN 4 yrs Thole
    BN 1 yrs Rajai
    BN 6yrs Gose

    SP 3 yrs Dickey (w/ext)
    SP 1 yrs JJ
    SP 3 yrs Buehrle
    SP 3 yrs Morrow
    SP 4 yrs Romero

    Get a platoon partner for Lind (or replacement), extend JJ and the only issues left are upgrade C and/or CF with Gose still an option in centre. JPA and Rasmus aren’t horrible but the Jays still have the ability to make trades even after this.

  73. The hoax is getting even more ridiculous. First it was jpa and gose, then it was darnaud, now it’s darnaud and syndergaard? For 1 year of dickey? Funny how all the twitter attention whores have all jumped on this with no source. Oh wait we know the source, JPR.

    So now it’s day 2 and the mets still haven’t said yes? give me a break. So there are no other teams offering anything big and suddenly the jays offer up their whole farm because you know alex won’t deny anything and JPR will confirm everything.

    • This is far from their whole farm system.

    • What I don’t get is how adding a shit catcher with a zillion passed balls and wild pitches last season in Thole increases the trade from Arencibia + Gose to d’Arnaud, Buck (and cash), Syndergaard, and another prospect. The Jays know his price so adding more talent for an extension is just absolutely mind-boggling.

      What’s even more scary is apparently they even discussed Aaron Sanchez.


      • Passed balls and a knuckleballer.. you don’t see the connection?

      • The primary catcher of a knuckleballer has more passed balls than average? No way! As for the trade escalation, Arenciba + Gose was never going to get it done but you’re right in that the price now seems ridiculous.

        • It’s not surprising for Thole to give up more than the norm, but when he’s his personal catcher and still giving up 18 passed balls and 18 wild pitches? Arencibia couldn’t do much worse.

      • Exactly, makes zero sense, nobody would bid against themselves. The fact this is going on for so long makes it seem like JPR is trying to get other teams to bite on getting back in the game, trying to validate previous discussions by saying “see – the Jays are willing to offer 2 top prospects”. BTW those previous discussions had ended with “hello, are you still there? Ah crap, Janet, get me AA back on the phone”.

        • Or just maybe it really is about the physicals and the extension. Without the extension this deal does not get done. Look how many professionals it takes to negotiate and sign off on a contract at the numbers we’re talking about and then factor in that it’s on a weekend.

          • Are you really this stupid? Physicals are done after a trade is done. Mets have said no extension talks.

          • @Gary are you that much of a fucking moron that you’d think AA would risk 12 years of those guys for one of Dickey? Please do us all a favour and stop licking the inside of your ass and go back to the TSN comments section.

  74. The delay is that AA is trying to extend Dickey now. The whole thing can go south if the Dickmiester says no

  75. MLBTR says some Mets media guy is saying Aaron Sanchez has been talked about.
    To be fair he says talked about, I cannot even believe Syndergard is in play and the fact that we are paying Bucks Salarie. Buck and Dickey are compairable in money, Buck is 1 million more.

    Love how Wilpon is using the whole Bernie Made off thing to be a cheap ass. Largest market, won’t lock up his ace for 30 million over three years. Wilpon was cleared of any wrong doing yet is being cheap all of a sudden…. Of course Santana, Bay contracts hurt them and maybe that’s why. I keep reading Mets fans hating the Reyes and Beltran deals….. they were injured but were still probably worth the contracts they singed what the hell do they want.

  76. Still going to wait and see who the other prospects are for each side but I’d be surprised if the Jays did give up TDA and Syndergaard and not get Niese back as well even though that looks to be the case. A bit of an overpay in a vacuum as the deal is being announced without a doubt imo. However, as I said last night, this team is set for the next 3 years for the most part with the group that is here. We’re still very deep in pitching prospects that will be able to help starting next year or even this year with guys like Stroman and Nolin. This system is not bare by any stretch of the imagination. I bet it still comes in at middle of the pack when all is said and done and that’s with the major league team stocked beyond anyone’s imagination at this point last year.

    Don’t forget, we still have guys like Hutchison and Drabek who still have plenty of worth if they prove they’re healthy. That kind of rotation depth is going to make this team much more flexible to handle any other situations that arise down the road. Even if Johnson goes in 2014, look at the list of arms that could be potentially available: Dickey, Morrow, Romero, Buehrle, Hutchison, Drabek, Happ, Nolin. That’s 8 starters all at below market prices.

    This team now has at least 3 #2′s in Johnson, Dickey and Morrow and each of them while maybe not a true ace in the Verlander mold, certainly has the ability to pitch like #1′s. Romero has shown in the past he’s capable of pitching like a #2 as well.

  77. I really hope the sources are just setting us up for D’Arnaud/Syndergaard/Sierra/Buck/Happ for Harvey/R.A./Thole. Then I would rejoice and forget about the scenario that JPR is leaking out of his fistulated *ss to try to drive up the price. Fact is, the Jays have most (but not all) of the leverage right now.

  78. They were talking about this on the fan not much more than 20-ish minutes ago about fans bitching and being hypocritical with our prospect porn after years of griping about no big moves

    They are missing the big point – we don’t care if TDA AND Syndergaard are dealt, it’s the fact that they should be able to give the Jays back something other than just Dickey – the fans want to know why it is the Jays suddenly offer 2 top prospects for 1 yr of Dickey, why not other similarly regarded pitchers from other teams?

    If every other team says no, ok fine, but at this point Mets are most desperate but plenty of other teams would deal a pitcher for those 2 studs – lots of teams would love a potentially elite catcher/solid upside pitcher combo – so thats the main issue here for Jays fans complaints this weekend

    • Where is “one year” coming from? I think we have to accept that if the deal is done it’s going to end up being three years of Dickey.

      • well until that is confirmed just going with what’s fact at the moment

        it still is only one year, it’s just the exclusivity to extend him for longer that we gain – still have to pay him those 2-3 extra years

    • Also how much in prospects did Latos and Gonzales cost last year? Basically 4 top 10 prospects each if I remember correctly. Gonzalez had 2 years of control left at the time before extending. Latos 4 years.

      So for someone like Price, perhaps you were looking at TDA, Syndergaard, Nolin and Smoral. Would you pay that for 2 years of Price?


      There’s the difference between the two of them the last 3 years. What I am not understanding is why don’t people give Dickey any credit for his results over the last 3 years.

      • What I am not understanding is why don’t people give Dickey any credit for his results over the last 3 years.

        For me, it’s because his WAR was only above-average (both fWAR and rWAR). Comparing his 2010/11 seasons to his 2012 season really shows how much of an outlier last season was.

        2010: fWAR 2.8, rWAR 3.4
        2011: fWAR 2.5, rWAR 3.1
        2012: fWAR 4.6, rWAR 5.6

        Spontaneously increasing your value by 2-2.5 wins in your age 38 doesn’t inspire much confidence for a repeat, even if you’re a knuckleballer with no UCL.

        • Everyone please read this before talking any more about how much of a one year wonder Dickey is.


          Take a long look a the names in the 2nd to last paragraph and see who he compares to. Then tell me how much any of those guys would cost in a trade and or in a FA contract?

          • I dont think Dickey is a one year wonder at all – in fact his 3 years of work line up nicely with Latos and Gio’s prior 3 years of work, I think the big difference is those latter 2, being younger, gives them an opportunity to be extended much longer whereas we know the Jays won’t extend Dickey beyond 3 years most likely

          • No one would dispute that Dickey has been comparable to Price for the last three seasons. The entire reason for the Jays to trade for Dickey is for what he can do in 2013 (and possibly beyond).

            Who do you think is going to age better between a 38 year old Dickey and a 25 year old Price?

          • That should read 27 year old Price, not 25.

      • Alright let’s break it down

        Gio plus Gilliam (throw in prospect) =

        #3 prospect – Peacock – pitcher
        #4 – Cole – pitcher
        #9 – Norris – pitcher
        lottery – Milone

        For 1 yr of Gio

        Extension of 5 yrs 42 mil and 2 options = 9 mil per yr

        Outgoing salary was 3.5 million

        Pedigree: 2 yrs of allstar calibre pitching – 3.5 WAR pr yr

        Age: 25

        Concerns: lack of control (walks), played in pitching park

        • They gave up 3 plus prospects for 1 yr of Gio and right to extension

          You can say Milone and Gilliam are sort of a wash

          Big difference here is:

          A) Gio is younger
          B) Due to his age they locked him up much longer for a fantastic price by today’s standards

          Gio should be making Anibal Sanchez type money, but instead he’s making way less

          So in this trade, I feel Nats paid lesser price than what Jays would for Dickey since basically Thole is a wash with Buck and cash, the 2 prospects are a wash, it basically becomes #1 and #3 prospect for Dickey

          • Another thing to factor is how highly touted the prospects were overall – I’d have to go back and look but I recall at the time none of the prospects the Nats gave up where superstuds they would really regret missing.

            D’Arnaud is top MLB prospect, let alone the Jays #1 and THE top catcher, which IMO holds more value than a pitcher unless they are a Strasburg type

          • It’s still 4 prospects. We gave up a net of 2 and saved some (I know not all money in Buck). Then add in the inflation we’re seeing in the price of starting pitching. It still rose from last year. As for the age thing to me it’s a wash right now because of the historic ability of pretty much all the knuckleballers to perform at advanced ages.

        • Really Milone lottery pick? Wow talk about your instant scratch and wins then. 2.7 fwar in 2012.

          • At the time Milone wasn’t a top 10 prospect for the Nats. 10th round selection in amatuer draft. Lottery may be undercutting him a bit, but he was a massive surprise for Oakland – let’s no forget that

          • Anyway, my point is mainly to show this is still an overpay, not to discredit Dickey at all. He had just as good a 2-3 year window prior to this trade proposal as Latos and Gio did. So unless this is just a market correction, as prices go up, maybe the Cy Young adding a bit more prestige than those other 2 names had, I don’t really see why TWO top 3 prospects need to be included unless the Jays get something better back than a Gilliam type from the Mets

          • Or maybe you know, the fucking scouts did their job and knew what they had?

          • Ok, so at least we agree it could be an account for inflation, since some people don’t seem to think that is a factor. Dickey’s the last best name known to be available as well, which surely plays into the pricing.

            Age thing could be a wash, because based on Wakefield’s numbers, he pitched well above average from years 38-41, but I think the prospect of a much younger still weighs on any GM;s mind because they could be open to much longer extension

      • “So for someone like Price, perhaps you were looking at TDA, Syndergaard, Nolin and Smoral. Would you pay that for 2 years of Price?”

        I guess you could say

        *puts on sunglasses*

        that’s a steep price to pay.

  79. Sounds like a typical JPR clusterfuck to me. He always overplays his hand. At this point I’m meh on the whole thing. I’d like to get Dickey but not at any price.

  80. D’Arnaud, Syndergaard, Nicolino, Marisnick, Hechavarria, Alvarez, Deslafani, Comer, Wojciechowski, Perez, Musgrove, Rollins given up in Happ/Dickey/Marlins deals.

    Almost reads like our top prospects list entering last year. Still pretty cool that Jays are finally spending money (and prospects) to get good players.

    • Had JPR built his team like AA and emphasized scouting and controllable young players, the cost might not have been that high. Hopefully now the prospects wont be rushed up through the ranks and a few good contending years at the MLB level will allow the ones that are still there to develop at a slower rate.

  81. good point made by someone on MLBTR, the Yanks got Campos and Pineda for Montero. Pinedas value was much higher at the time of the trade than Dickey, with or without the Cy Young. Montero was a bit more of a sure thing with the bat and health, but TDA plays a premium position and is the top ranked at it.


  82. Jays still have Gose, Sanchez, Norris, Osuna, Stroman, Smoral, Nolin, DeJong, DJ Davis, Jimenez, Nessy, etc plus Hutchison and Drabek.

    This is in addition to a stacked team with an awesome rotation.

    Buck sucks and Miami’s paying his salary anyways so sending the cash doesn’t matter. TDA might not be that great and Syndergaard is in A ball for fucks sakes.

    People need to calm the fuck down about TDA and Syndergaard.

    • Missing

      Its not about how many solid prospects we have even if we deal TDA and Noah Synd….its about opportunity cost.

      i think they could do better than Dickey in trading these two guys.

      Prospects are like dollars. Just because you have alot of them, doesnt mean its OK to just waste them. Sure spend the money (prospects) if you are getting something that is worth it. Just dont overpay

      • No, you are missing the fucking point. The point is to win. Not to masturbate to potential. If it costs a bit more to get over the top, so be it.

        Because you think they could do better doesn’t mean they can. Most top pitchers don’t get traded and I doubt there was many more hanging around to be traded for.

    • you’re right BUT… the price is still high.

      I love Dicky but can he be as good in the Rodgers Centre?

      I’m a little scared.

      • Wakefield said the dome was better than outside for the knuckleball.

      • This ain’t no place to be scared! For fuck sakes…I don’t think there is many of us that want to see sacred prospects leave BUT this roster is built to seriously compete for the next 3-4 years. Sure AA can walk away and try to pry another pitcher another day but how many days do you get to go after the reigning CY FUCKING Young winner?! Sure there is risk but that risk is both ways…on the Dickster putting together a few good years and whether or not TDA et. al will be stars or average players.

    • Why do you all say the cash doesn’t matter. Money is money. If you give someone 8M you are out 8M. Doesn’t matter where it came from. Fucks sake

  83. Compare this to the buerhle deal. There were NO leaks on that deal. Now this deal EVERY name is being leaked. Does that sound like a typical AA deal?

    Notice how the names keep getting bigger.

    First darnaud in play, then confirmed
    Then syndergaard discussed, then confirmed
    Now we hear sanchez discussed.

    I’m sure by tomorrow he’ll be in too.

  84. Presumably contending teams want to keep their starters, save possibly for Tampa who probably aren’t going to give us Price because we’re in they’re division (the same reason we chose Philly over New York and Boston when looking to deal Halladay).

    What pitchers have the most fWAR over the past 3 years, and are either free agents or on non-contending teams?

    1) Felix, 17.3, and as we all know is not available.
    2) The Philadelphia pitchers, except that Philly thinks they’re a contender so they’re not liable to be available either.
    3) Jon Lester, 12.7, who knows what the hell the Red Sox are thinking?

    Of note, Josh Johnson slots in here at 11.8

    The below pitchers are probably options for us, unlike the above:
    4) Yovani Gallardo, 10.7
    5) Ubaldo Jiminez, 10.5
    6) Edwin Jackson, 10.4
    7) R.A. Dickey, 9.9

    Brandon Morrow slots in here at 9.6, and Buehrle at 9.5

    8) Justin Masterson, 9.6
    9) Francisco Liriano, 8.9
    10) Ricky Nolasco, 8.7

    And since his name gets brought up alot, Shaun Marcum, 7.8, just ahead of Romero at 7.6.

    Of the actually available pitchers, who would we want? Jiminez is dead, Liriano is scary, and Nolasco waaaaay underperforms his FIP. Dickey and Jackson are clearly the best available pitchers, and one is a free agent which means have fun signing him.

    Point two: “if we’re gonna give up Syndergaard and D’Arnaud we may as well use them to get a better pitcher than Dickey.” Okay. Who? Name the available starting pitcher better than Dickey, who we could get for Syndergaard and D’Arnaud.

    Now I’m not AA so I’ve not had these discussions with other teams, but it seems to me that Dickey is the best *available* pitcher, short of throwing $15 mil AAV at Jackson, who for all we know is not someone Rogers would approve. So even if I think that Syndergaard and D’Arnaud are a huge overpay, when viewed from that angle Dickey is easier to swallow. There’s just not a better pitcher available who will cost less. There’s probably not a better pitcher available, period.

    *Regarding Gallardo, the one other player who might be available and might be as good as Dickey, he’s got three years and $32 million remaining on his contract, which suggests to me a) he’s valuable and will cost a lot; b) Milwaukee might not be interested in trading him.

    • ” “if we’re gonna give up Syndergaard and D’Arnaud we may as well use them to get a better pitcher than Dickey.” Okay. Who? Name the available starting pitcher better than Dickey, who we could get for Syndergaard and D’Arnaud. ”


  85. Knuckleballers defy most metrics so you can’t use things like fwar to look at him (which is mentioned repeatedly on fangraphs so I don’t know why people still site fwar to evaluate Dickey). What Dickey does have is an ERA of 2.84 3.28 and 2.73 the last 3 years, are people honestly saying that’s all a fluke? I think a track record of almost 600 innings shows you what he can do. Seriously do people think Bautista is going to turn back into a pumpkin still, some players can change and get better, WEVE SEEN IT HAPPEN for fucks sake.

    • I had an interesting chat the other day with another blue jays fan. He went on and on about WAR. I asked him if he even knew how WAR was calculated. He didn’t get very far in his explanation. Sure these stats are valuable, but they have to be applied properly. In reality there is no single be all and end all stat, you have to look at all of them to get a more accurate picture (not to mention, you know, actually watching them play).

    • I sur hope that wrist operation didnt precipitate a change in his swing….

      …just sayin

  86. I watched “Knuckleball” earlier. Well worth checking out, although let me warn you that they almost had me liking Tim Wakefield FFS, and I could never stand him. (There is also footage of his 200th win against The Jays in Boston which I could have done without, thank you very much.)

    At one point, however, he (and his wife) discuss how difficult his career has been, how he’s had to work so hard to endure. All the knuckleballers (Hough, Phil Niekro, Candiotti, Wood, Wakefield, Bouton) talk of the lack of respect for them because of their under-appreciated pitch, about having to prove themselves each and every day. Dickey also notes that he’s had 14 1-year non-guaranteed contracts, how they have personally lifted every move (37 in number) over 15 years. (As recently as 2010, he was the first cut sent to the Buffalo Bisons.)

    My take is Dickey isn’t going to be difficult to extend at all–he and his wife have been waiting his whole career for the chance to sign on the dotted line. I hope we give him the opportunity to finally comfortably provide for his family. Make it so AA.

    • Well said man.

    • + Billions and Billions

    • (I had meant to add that back in 1996 when Texas found out he had no ulnar collateral ligament in his right elbow, his signing bonus went from $810,000 down to $75,000, take it or leave it.)

      • Thanks, a little dose of rationality. I was starting to sway in the wind.
        The rum may be partly to blame.

        SI wrote a great article about Dickey last year, I read about how he lost his signing bonus and how at one point he was on the verge of ending his career until his wife talked him out of it. It seems like theres depth of character there, something maybe these Jays have lacked recently. Looking forward to watching him float butterflies in the Dome.

  87. People need to stop jumping the gun. Dickey at the right price is a tremendous pick up for the Jays. If AA manages to work out the right deal then this could be absolutely huge for the team. Some prospect porn will certainly be lost, but it’s too early to bitch about what we’re hearing from rumours.

    There’s also a lot of perpetuating comments that are kind of irritating. The deal will almost certainly not be for 1 year of Dickey. AA will match what Dickey wants, and Dickey wants the financial security he has never had.

    The Dickey saga will end soon enough. No one else is offering even close to what the Jays have, so AA still has room to work his magic. Let’s not shit on him yet, although the rumours don’t paint the best picture at the moment.

    • It’s pretty amazing how anyone would think that AA would trade those guys for 1 year of Dickey. Unfortunately, Dickey’s willingness to sign an extension has given the Mets a nice bargaining chip because they are arguing from the position of 3 years of control which is obvious in the players they are giving up.

      Again guys read the FanGraphs article. The Jays are being charged for someone like Cameron is talking about in his article not a one-year wonder and while the cost is painful, that’s the price.


  88. At this point I am numb to the prospect names being added to the ‘Buck’ trade. I have to believe AA has a pretty good idea what his collection of prospect porn will bring. If it takes TDA, Synder et al…well in AA WE TRUST.

    • that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard

      • Well Bob–

        BlueBallz is not alone in his opinion.

        (His unfortunate predicament is another thing all together.)

      • Thanks Bob. Is that your name or just what you do with you son Neil?

        • you’re blind trust is disheartening….he has made mistakes. He is going to make more. No one is perfect, and I (or anyone) is perfectly in their right to say this is a bad move.

          • FFS Bob–

            What you said was “that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard,” except you did it without the benefit of punctuation or capitals. That’s a horse of a different colour, my friend, although still within you’re rights of course.

          • @Bob My point that I was trying to make here on the interweb of thoughts was that AA is a whole helluva lot more capable at evaluating the Jays prospects than I. And will I and sure alot others will question what the ultimate pay is, there is not a whole fucking lot we can do about it….thus the blind trust, just maybe not muted silence…but whatever.

  89. They horded draft picks so they could makes trades when they’re close to winning. Sure they are potentially great players but this has always been the plan.
    However if the deal is TDA and Snydergaard, I wonder if there is a better deal out there.

    • There isn’t and that’s why we gotta pay up. Supply and demand.

    • Morrow dickey johnson. Thats a high prob 2/3 W should be easily 50/50 w beuhrle RR – health cant possibly replicate 2012. Lineup is A+. More time passes better i feel.

    • And surprise surprise, Rosenthal has been one of the quietest in regard to this proposed Dickey deal. Could be that his bullshit detector is just better than guys like Sherman. Not to say Rosen doesnt flip flop but he certainly doesnt often have his foot in his mouth with predictions

  90. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/toronto-blue-jays-new-york-mets-ra-dickey-hot-stove-trade-121412

    it’s quite funny how the trade has COMPLETELY changed in just 1 day. Yesterday it was gose and JPA and today neither is in the supposed trade.

  91. Mets also offering Ruben Tejada and Jenrry Mejia in an attempt to bring back Jose Reyes along with TDA and Sunderhaard

  92. We are trading an injury prone catching prospect with knee injury and a low A ball pitching prospect who is projected to be a bullpen arm for the reigning cy yonge winner? What is the problem? Some folks talk like they’re professional scout or have a clue. Do you wanna win or what?

    • bullpen arm? You’ve proven how much you know.

    • “Some folks talk like they’re professional scout”

      Like you?

      SOME scouts have suggested Syndegaard COULD end up in the bullpen.

      • I can’t believe this is even a discussion. His projection is a 1-2 starter. Of course he can be a bullpen pitcher if things go wrong. He can also die in a car accident or have his arm cut off in a chainsaw accident.

        If you want to trade prospects fine, but don’t act that they meant nothing.

        • 1-2 starter? With one pitch?

          • “Projected to be a bullpen arm” is just complete shit.

            I’ll be you can’t find one legit scouting report that projects him to do this.

            Most of them say something like “could be a #2 starter but may end up in the bullpen if his secondary offerings don’t improve.”

          • Fangraphs directly quotes a scouting director as projecting him in the bullpen. He has one major league pitch at the moment.

        • Syndergaard is not projected to be a number 1 starter. At best, in a perfect world scenario, he projects to be a solid number 2.

  93. Thole has shown some success with the bat. wonder if he can hit .280 w .340 8/9th as teams more likely go after him then flip the lineup?

  94. The Mets writer for ESPN is annoying me, he’s talking about all of this like it’s sure.

    • Good hopefully it is. Now just waiting for bud to sign off due to cash?

    • Tired of all the, Mets aren’t really impressed with Syndergard or TDA. Fuck off they’re some of the best prospects in the game. I’m not even sure why the price is even this high to be honest, not becasue I feel Dickey is worth it but I feel like Olt odesn’t fit anywhere in New York and if they don’t want Gose, then they don’t want pourjos and Baltimore the other team thought to be involved earlier is not offering Gausman, Bundy, or Machado. The Mets take TDA for Dickey straight up or we walk away, we seem to be the only team that’s even offered them fair value so take it or don’t.
      I think we Need Syndergard for dealing at the all star break assuming we’re in it. So in my mind we need to pull of this Dickey trade with TDA and a non elite prospect and not dump Buck or take Thole if that’s what it takes.

      We need guys to deal at the deadline. Sanchez would be the only one left….. people have soured on Norris a little bit and I don’t think Teams are so sold on Nolin and Osuna to make them the centre peiece of a deal at the trade deadline.

  95. ok the RA dickey deal is done to jay RA Dickey, Thole, plus prospect to mets TDA, Buck, Syndergaard, and a prospect. shut the FUCK UP. good deal IMO to make a run with a weak ALE.

  96. All I can say is this…

    1. The prospect coming from the mets sure as FUCK be a good one

    2. AA sure as FUCK better spend the money theyre saving on getting rid of Buck on a good reliever.

  97. This deal was almost done yesterday. What’s taking so long?

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