According to Mel Antonen of assorted baseball writings, Tim Raines is set to join the Blue Jays coaching staff. The former Expos great and poster boy for Hall of Fame arguments involving Jack Morris will be the outfield and base-running coach for the club in 2013. As far as the one 15 second google search I did about the position tells me, the position didn’t exist previously in the organization before this.

Between the gifs, the instagram accounts, R.A. Dickey’s nerditry and now pre-stat-revolution victim-of-circumstance Raines, the Jays 2012 off-season plan clearly included appealing to as many different demographics of fans on the internet as possible.

Got ‘em.

LATE UPDATE: Happy New Year
HANGOVER UPDATE: According to Wilner, Raines is going to be working mostly at the minor league level and will only be helping the Jays big leaguers during Spring Training. STILL THO.

Comments (176)

  1. Mel Antonen puts me to sleep

    • Check Raines’ back pocket.

      Now dance the night away.

      • Low blow Spud, but its ok, get it out of your system before the new year comes. Melatonian – really. This guy has gotta get a life

        • I don’t like cocaine, I just like the way it smells.

          • +1

          • LOL!.

            Raines was one of my favourite players growing up as an Expos fan.

            AA is going all out to get fans from Montreal to get hyped up about the team.

            The Blue Jays are broadcast in french on TVA Sports in Montreal.

            The Expos had another base stealer around that time, named Ron Leflore who was an ex con.

          • Smashers a drug lord.

            I’d love to see Dwight Gooden, Otis Nixon and Rock kRaines fight over a baby sized mound of coke with 711 Slurpy sized straws.

            I’m probably going to hell in a hand basketball for that one

          • Im not a player I just f**k a lot

      • he wasn’t Rock Raines for nothing…

  2. Saw him playing 3b at a charity softball tournament in Richmond Hill in June. Should we just tell him to hang out with Lawrie at all times?

  3. That is right Johah, Timmy is now a Jay.

    Fucking deal with it.

  4. Like this move a lot from the practical side of things and the optics of it as well.

    BTW Happy New Year to all the DJF crowd. Here’s hoping we have the first of many playoff appearances (and WS titles) in 2013.

  5. Hopefully a large part of Raines job will be working directly with Gose. Does it sound like this is going to be a roving instructor type role?

    Also, the fact that Andre Dawson is in the HoF and Tim Raines isn’t makes absolutely no sense.

    • one had a Peruvian lady friend and the other did not. A lot of the voters have not forgiven him for that. Borrowing from Clapton ” she don’t lie she dont lie….

    • Raines should get the HOF. I remember Dawson helping Raines get off Cocaine for games.

      I wish I could see the tapes again of the games that Raines played after sorting Cocaine.

      How is it even possible to play a game stoned?

  6. That is interesting and why not, he must know Alex well and same for Alex

  7. Just let gose, Davis plus boneface loose should be a fun 2013 season
    Happy new year everyone

  8. [...] DJF – According to Mel Antonen of assorted baseball writings, Tim Raines is set to join the Blue Jays [...]

  9. As a kid I remember his card having “Rock Raines” which confused me because Dave Van Horne never called him by that. Expos baseball on CBC, usually Saturday nights or Sunday afts, were the only exposure us out west had to the Expos throughout the 80s.

    Cant tell if this is a good hire or some sort of quasi patronage Canadian content appointment.

  10. He should work exclusively (EXCLUSIVELY) with Brett Lawrie. That fucker needs to learn how to run bases at the pee wee level.

  11. Raines only slid head first so he woujldn’t crush the coke vial he kept in his back pocket.

    For real.

  12. So Murphy gets demoted from hitting coach to OF coach…. And now he’s even sharing that duty with Raines.

    I think this is a great move, but does it say anything about Murphy? Maybe he’ll be spending more time with the hitters than we thought?

    Or he left for another team and somehow I missed it.

    • I think Murphy will still be available to work with some of his hitting disciples (mainly Bautista and EE) while the official hitting coach (Mottola) will be working with the remaining roster.

  13. With the way our boys ran into outs last year it can’t hurt having one of the most prolific thieves in baseball history on the payroll.

    Maybe he’ll teach Lawrie that trying to swipe the dish that Bautista is about to eat from is not a good idea. Is that up there for worst play of the year?

  14. I will totally buy a Tim Raines Jays jersey.

  15. Sounds like he’s going to be a roving instructor through the minor leagues, not exclusively with the big league team.

  16. isn’t this for a minor league gig and not with the big club?

  17. 100% confirmed. It’s a minor league deal. He will rove around the minor league system. Ryan Walsh, Producer of PrimeTime Sports at the Fan 590, confirmed it.

  18. All you base are belong to Tim Raines.

    This is going to be an epic season!

  19. I don’t like them bringing in a former coke head, they should bring back guys like Molitor who would never have touched that stuff

    • haha, nice.

    • Funny-ish

      • Funny

        Edward Garlick: We got one letter from a man who thought that Hauk’s comedy was “visionary and interesting.” The other eleven hundred calls say that the man can’t do comedy to save his dick!… That’s a direct quote, sir.

        Lieutenant Steven Hauk: I understand you’re pretty funny as a dee-jay and, well, comedy is kind of a hobby of mine. Well, actually, it’s a little more than just a hobby, Reader’s Digest is considering publishing two of my jokes.
        Adrian Cronauer: Really.
        Lieutenant Steven Hauk: Yeah. And perhaps some night we could maybe get together and swap humorous stories, for fun.
        Adrian Cronauer: Oh, why not? Maybe play a couple of Tennessee Ernie Ford records, that’d be a hoot.
        Lieutenant Steven Hauk: That’s a joke, right?
        Adrian Cronauer: Maybe.
        Lieutenant Steven Hauk: I get it.

  20. I happen to think the Jays do need a base running coach… the Jays did make a lot of on base errors and that is something the Jays need to work on.

    Since speed is going to be a major element that the Jays are going to use this year with Reyes and others swiping bags, so this move makes sense.

    I also love the idea of former Expos working for the Jays. We need to hire Larry Walker as well!

  21. Happy New Years to everyone. Time to get drunk, laid, and thrown in prison! (preferrably in that order)

  22. This will be fantastic for our speedsters! Especially Gose when he gets up here. Bring back the 70sb lead off hitter biatch!

  23. As an Irish Canadian I wish you to be all well liquoured and have yer face be in it’s fancy place…shiggety boooo!

  24. Suck it, Farrell

  25. Happy 2013 to all the commenters
    Fuck off parkes, suck it Farrell and World Series champs here we come

  26. Happy New Year to all.

    My contribution to the newest Jays aquisition.

    Snortin’ whiskey & drinkin’ cocaine
    Been snortin’ whiskey & drinkin’ cocaine
    Got this feelin’
    I’m gonna drive that girl insane

    You’re like a bad rumor baby
    You’re all over town
    You’re like a bad rumor baby
    You’re all over town,all over town
    I may be confused,
    But you know I sure ain’t down

    I’m a fast movin’ baby
    I can show you around
    I got so much cocaine
    Ain’t never comin’ down
    Snortin’ whiskey, drinkin’ cocaine
    Got this feelin’ I’m gonna drive that girl insane

    Snortin’ whiskey, drinkin’ cocaine
    We’re snortin’ whiskey & I’m,
    I’m drinkin’ cocaine
    I got this feelin
    I’m gonna drive that girl insane
    Got this feelin’–
    Im gonna–
    Drive that–
    girl insane…..

  27. Here’s why WAR bugs me, ESPN ran the numbers of Carlos Gonzalez and Michael Saunders and Gonzo has a lower WAR rating despite leading in every offensive category. Gonzo won a gold glove last year. both had over 500 plate apperarances. WAR what is it good for?

    Gonzalez 22 85 .303 .371 .510 9.7% 19.9% 122 1.3
    Saunders 19 57 .247 .306 .432 7.8% 23.9% 108 2.1


      Looks like Gonzo has 2.7 to me. Pretty defensible, in my opinion, considering WAR is adjusted for park factors and position. Gonzo hit well at home and ran the bases reasonably. Saunders is a better defender and baserunner and played half his games in an offensive sinkhole.

    • Gonzalez was horrendous defensively last year, and I think we all know just how useless Gold Gloves are.

      Where you play defensively affects the value of your WAR totals, and Saunders, while just as bad defensively, played a prime position of CF. Gonzalez solely played LF last year. That’s basically the only reason why Gonzalez had a low WAR rating.

      Gonzalez: -13 DRS, -10 UZR/150 in LF for 1127.2 innings
      Saunders: -12 DRS, -9.3 total UZR/150 in 1188.1 innings, -5.3 in CF in 974 innings

      • WAR is one of the most overused and overhyped bullshit stats in the game today. Really funny that a stat like RBIs has been apparently rendered useless but WAR seems to be the all mighty make or break of a player. Absolutely retarded.

        • Not really. RBI are a product of another player getting on base, something that a batter can’t control. WAR is a stat that makes perfect sense if you understand it. It isn’t perfect, but it’s the best stat available.

          • An RBi is a known formula by all, WAR is known to a few and even they have different formula’s. The point being is that WAR is an indicator and nothing more. WAR suffers the same problems as R’s BI in the end – an in-precise science

          • @birddawg

            As Indestructable covered, positional scarcity and defense matter. This to me isn’t a new or revolutionary concept: The HoF has quite a few guys (Ozzie, Brooks Robinson, etc) with league-average or slightly better offensive numbers who were great defenders at difficult positions. I can’t understand how that’s a controversial statement, but I know in some quarters it is.

            On the second, WAR is not obtuse or unknowable, and saying it’s “calculated differently in different places” is flawed because fWAR, rWAR and WARP are different stats, all of which are “open source” (For example: Comparing between is apples to oranges, while the difference come down to replacement level and positional adjustments. Economics and other disciplines have the same issues with regards to constants, in the long run the “correct” metric is the one that tends to be most right most often.

            Anyway, you’re right in that it is an indicator, but it is pretty much the best indicator we have of who provides the most value to a roster.

          • This is why I like to take the mean of both fWAR and rWAR, especially for pitchers. ERA is what the pitcher actually gave you (taking into consideration that defense skews it) and FIP is what the pitcher’s ERA should have been, and where it may be next season.

            WAR is more of a stat that tells the value of a player. Runs, as an example, are about 50% of player A getting on base, and player B getting a hit. RBI is the same; They both require outside forces that a sole player can’t control.. unless they hit a home run.

          • Well, the problem with WAR is the defensive component. WRC+ should tell you more about what you need to know regarding the offensive contributions of players and you can quickly see the difference between saunders and cargo

          • For example, Industructable sites DRS (defensive runs saved. Who makes the determination that a run was going to score in the first place. Can that subjective viewpoint be overturned?
            A stats guys suggests hypocrosy if you use stats to make a point, then a stats guy says gold gloves are useless – same hypocoosy.
            New Years resolution will be to be more knowlegeable in the stats area, but I know I don’t like what I see.

          • @ AGR

            Except that doing that ignores position in the equation, plus baserunning. WAR is doing for value what wRC+ and OPS+ did for era, league, and park adjustments.

            The defensive measures are imperfect, but do tend to reflect what the “eye test” tells us.

          • @ birddawg

            The explanation of metrics like DRS is fairly widely available, it isn’t dudes sitting around saying “that saved a run!”


          • Thanks Justin, I had read fangraphs prior to my post. Trivalizing the judgement call as”it isn’tdudes sitting around” , doesn’t help make your point – in fact quite the opposite. It is a judgement call, utilizing technology, by knowledgeable people (dudes sitting aroud) and thus it is subjective.
            In the example I gave earlier, and I don’t know either Saunders or Gonzo, I would take Gonzo. This on the streght of the tradtional stats I know, and my suspicions about WAR. That said, I need to learn more about it.

          • Fielding Bible has some pretty good articles on how these stats are calculated also. I don’t think people need to understand exactly how these stats are calculated- some of them I don’t even know. But as long as they’re understood by what each number’s value is, that’s all that matters (such as the DRS graph in the link Justin provided).

            But you know Gold Gloves are a sham when you know what’s considered good and bad for UZR and DRS, and you see Jeter has a career -135.1 UZR and TZ (essentially 135.1 runs allowed due to no range) and -142 DRS, and DRS only goes back to 2002. Or when Palmeiro wins it for playing 28 games at 1B in 1999 lol.

          • Isn’t runs a product of players driving you in?

            Every stat can’t be argued against

          • Not if you steal 2nd, 3rd, and home.

    • CarGo fWAR: 2.7
      wRC+: 122
      Fielding: -8.5
      Baserunning: 2.7

      Saunders: 2.3 fWAR
      wRC+: 108
      Fielding: -8.2
      Baserunning: 4.7

      And as previously mentioned, the positional difference. You can find imperfections with every single stat in baseball… the problem isn’t WAR, its the way people misinterpret it. You don’t need to be a genius to understand how its calculated, and if don’t take the time to learn, of course it isn’t going to make sense to you. And for what its worth, the correlation between Wins Above Replacement and actual wins is fairly significant (some studies suggest as high as 90% or greater). Its not some bullshit stat

      • @ Red great response. Looking at those formula’s now, but it will be hard for me to accept some of the assumptions, including the 90% success rate. Sounds like someone marking your own tests and giving themselves a high score.

        • That makes no sense. You take the WAR of individual players, add them to replacement level, and regress the totals across the league/across eras against the team’s actual win total to see if the correlation between team wins and total WAR are statistically significant.

          Again, math isn’t make-believe, and people (including the majority of MLB front offices) aren’t pulling stuff out of thin air.

  28. [...] The guys at Drunk Jays Fans say that the Jays have not had anyone in this position before.  It seems to me that a base-running coach would be an awesome investment for any team because while speed is obviously important, so much about base-running is about skill. Reading pitchers’ moves and the like. Just look at how many super fast dudes have low stolen base percentages. [...]


    Tim Raines told how he’d keep a gram of coke in his uniform pocket (as well as revealing that he snorted during games), and that he only slid into bases headfirst so as not to break the vial.

  30. They really do need a baserunning coach though (LAWRIE!!!1!!!).

  31. I guess Alex took a lot of what he learned In Montreal and put into practice here. He didn’t learn this from JP!

  32. Is it just me or is there something very hypocritical about someone that constantly spouts assloads of metrics stats calling people nerds.

    • How can you put forth an argument if you don’t site the appearant weakness in the subject matter. what the hell are you suppose to do, just use your tired old traditional bullshit all the time. In truth, if the new math makes it better to judge a player I’m in. Just haven’t been convinced by what I preceive as flawed logic.

    • I spout metrics?

      • This is an example of a drive-by shooting off of the mouth.

        A classic case of a mistaken identity, Archi. Don’t let it get you down.

        • Hell I thought Buck was taking to me. Unless you were talking to me Archie, which, if that was the case, then so was Spud. Well that would just be a grerat way to start the year – but I don’t think that happened.
          When the fuck did Buck become a statistician?

    • It’s very telling that to you numbers = “nerds”.

  33. True story though, Raines was PLAYING and coaching in the independent league with his son up until what I believe was a couple years ago. Old man must still be in good shape.

    And if were going to start giving ballplayers from that era shit for doing coke,, we might as well write off every player that played in the 1980′s

  34. RIP Raptorized John.

  35. Happy New Year to everyone who makes DJF what it is.

    Watching the ’92 WS over the holidays was a blast. Is it just because of the nhl lockout, or is there really a major buzz about the Jays right now?
    Everyone is talking baseball, and it’s only January.

    Looking forward to the 2013 version of wit, wisdom and satire that is DJF.


    • It’s always good to hear from the distaff side of the DJF family.

      Cheers to karen & Isabellareyes.

    • Happy new year to you and the rest of the gang too! Can’t wait for spring training to start.

    • Perfect sentiments for the New Year.

    • +1

      LOL. I especially want to wish Fake oakville69 a Happy New Year and thank him for putting something interesting below my name.

      • That’s it, you’re starting to get the hang of it now. All the hallmarks.
        I particularly like the self-congratulatory tone.
        Kudos–you’re gonna drive him bonkers.
        Had you dropped an ‘l’ it would have be perfect.
        Still, it is only the first day of the new year.

      • Your welcome

  36. Happy New Year to all of you guys.

    It sure feels better than this time last year!

  37. Happy 2013 all! Pitchers and catchers report in six weeks.

    • Holy shit that sounds a lot better than 8 weeks. (The last time I let myself think about the remaining)

      Oh and I suppose Happy New Year to all. With some luck this should be a very happy year for Jays fans.

  38. So Oliver’s retiring or what?

  39. What’s left for AA do?

    relievers, AAA catcher depth, Lind

    What an amazing off season he has had so far.

  40. The only place I see Lind landing anywhere is in the 5 spot behind EE. I just dont see him moving anywhere.

    And I am by no means pro Lind but It pisses me off how everyone sticks up for Rasmus playing hurt when by many accounts Lind has battled his fair share. He looked good closing out 2012. Again Im not sold but im not throwing in the towel on him either.

  41. Agreed

    If not earlier.

    Price signs 1 yr extension for 10m.

    Must really like it in Tampa

  42. Wow i just got the whole 2013 thing

    im rockin an aggressive new years hangover

    dont ask

  43. Gose is crap compared to Rasmus… Can’t hit, strikes out too much. Use a longer sample size than just last year to compare.

    Really hoping he gets traded for pitching depth.

  44. Gose and his bat have improved at every level and his defense is superior. And its hard to draw a bigger sample size when hes played so little. At least im drawing from the most recent stats which bodes well in younger players.

    Perhaps you should look at yer own sample size before calling him ‘crap’.

    If he was available for trade Im sure it would have happened in the chaotic off season.

    • If you go by minor league + major league stats, its at least a sample size big enough to begin a discussion on strengths and weaknesses and expected performance. And two things stand out with Gose as being consistent throughout the years – stolen bases and strikeouts. And strikeouts are a major red flag, don’t you think? The raw speed certainly doesn’t make up for it. If he’s not getting on base enough or at the very least not able to move base runners ahead by putting the ball in play, what value does he add to a lineup’s offense? Instead, he’s a liability. Defense is overrated IMO – no player should be starter worthy just based on the fact that they play “superior” defense, except maybe middle infielders or catchers. where the skills required to play defense are much more position specific and therefore require more unique and scarcer talents. The potential marginal benefit gained with Gose in CF instead of Rasmus (who is not that bad of a defender himself) is not nearly enough benefit to justify the major drop in value in the batters box. To me, Gose is nothing more than a career pinch runner and late inning defensive replacement on any team that cares about where it sits in the standings come August/September.

      • As with Lind, I would like to see what Rasmus can do in the first half of the season. I am assuming/hoping that if Rasmus and Lind are healthy we can expect better performances by both players. Perhaps Mottola’s less dogmatic approach to pulling the ball will benefit both players and improve their approach at the plate.

        Given the way things have gone so far this offseason, I may as well shoot the moon and hope for decent results from those two.

        • I have not lost hope with Rasmus – I think just when he was finally in a groove last season at the plate, some nagging injuries got to him. Also think he’s the type who when he is slumping, he overthinks, works even harder in the cage but it does him no good because he is not relaxed. So his slumps extend longer than they should, and we get what we see – a streaky player.

          If he does slump again and needs someone to step in and give him some extra days off, I just hope its Rajai and/or Boneface who step in, and not the strikeout specialist Tony G.

      • @Ron

        I think since Gose was given the opportunity to drive the ball and not just slap hit and bunt while coming up the ranks with the Jays affiliaes and the fact he steadily improved is worth noting.

        Also last season he gained more of an ability to draw a walk which is also positive.

        I disagree with yer notion on defense. The Orioles albeit many other factors were quick to attribute much of their post season berth to D. Including defense being the reason for Machados early rise and steady role in lineup.
        Defense can swing games off the stat sheet in reference to momentum whether you believe in that or not. I happen to*

        Agree to disagree on Gose. I do hope yer wrong

        • Also last season he gained more of an ability to draw a walk which is also positive.

          Gose has always had the ability to draw walks. His problem is both swinging at pitches outside the strike-zone (20.9%) and making contact (72.5%). If he corrects the former, the latter will result in going up.

          • I was referring to his ability in doing so with the big club while facing big league pitching. Albeit 60ish games

            I realize he struggles with the stick, all Im saying is in reference to his finish of last season theres certainly room for optimism.

            Especially when people are only seeing him as a career bench player. Little early for that IMHO

        • Teams always say shit like that – the Orioles are just throwing around cliches. I do agree that defense has value, but its very position specific. Each spot on the field has a certain level of defensive skill required. If I had to rank them in order of skill required, IMO, I’d say it goes catcher, shortstop, second base, third base, center field, right field, left field, first base, pitcher. The catcher skill is obvious. Middle infielders have to be very quick and acrobatic to turn double plays. Third requires quick reactions and a bullet arm. Center requires speed and ability to track fly balls in a large area of space. Right requires fly ball tracking, and a gun of an arm. Left requires fly ball tracking. First requires minimal fielding and catching abilitles. Pitcher requires fielding short bunts/grounders, and quick throwing.

          The first positions (catcher, middle infield) are many times occupied by a defense first type player, simply because of how much defensive skill they require. I think there is then a drop off in relative skill required when you get to the outfield positions. If you’re in center, you need great speed. Rasmus isn’t as fast as Gose, but he can still hold his own. Gose has the better arm, which is a bonus. Still, not nearly enough for me to justify Gose over him considering the batting deficiencies.

      • Devo had at least 6 strikeouts in the series, but his defense was pretty
        awesome. If your centerfielder can take away extra-base hits he is pretty valuable. Centerfielders that rake are rare. Your opinion of Gose has been expressed more than enough Face. Yawn.

  45. Nobody said he was better but to call him crap is bullshit.

    And to think its not reasonable for him to take over Rasmus next yr in CF if Colby shits the bed thru to all star break like hes capable of is naive IMHO

    • It could happen, I agree.
      I’ve on record as saying I don’t think Colby willever be able to put it together for more than a couple of weeks. Once pitchers adjust to him , he doesn’t appear to readjust to them quickly enough.
      He simply has to get much better at using the whole field so maybe a new hitting instructor will help-for his and the Bjs sake i hope so.
      Last year, for virtually the entire second half ( and much of the first) he would simpy “play pepper” with the first baseman grounding out consatntly to the first baseman or just plain striking out, often looking.
      In a way this IS a make or reak year for him , for if we are going for the title , we won;t be able to carry a CF who just plain isn’t hitting much.
      Last year his defence IMO was not as sharp either, at best he was about league average. At least Gose can catch and throw. Don’t rule Boneface out either. He played there for Miami

  46. Some experts are saying Bone face is our darkhorse player this year, and that he, not Isturis, will be the Jays second bagger!

    • I look forward to seeing how that turns out. Nice to have 2 options!

    • I remember shortly after the Jays acquired Bonifacio looking up his stats and he had more or very close to the same number of games started at 2B than any other position while coming up in the minors.

      He possesses a better bat and speed than Izturis and pretty sure that Izturis has better defense. And if Izzy is our replacement over Omar, huge upgrade.

    • I think Bonifacio will end up taking Colby’s job. Emilio and Maicer are both better than Colby. Fuck, Rajai is probably better too.
      Prove me wrong please, Rasmus…

  47. Olney posted top 10 outfields – jays don’t make top 10 but do get an honorable mention.

    He seems pretty down on Jays this year in comparison to all the hype. Lets hope he’s wrong.

  48. Guess Ricky wasn’t available. Raines will do.
    This reminds me of when the Mets brought in Ricky Henderson to teach baserunning during spring training. Forget which year it was, but Jose Reyes ended up leading the league in stolen bases that year.

    • Thought the exact same thing. He practically invented the running game or at the last revolutionized the shit. He also taught shit heel Rajai how to run.

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