sweetlou

Get it before the video gets taken down: here, after the jump, we have “Sweet” Lou Piniella offering his analysis of this winter’s Jays-Marlins deal during the Yankees-Red Sox Grapefruit League game this afternoon, and… as far as inappropriate comparisons go… um… it’s a bit on the rape-y side.

Yeah… no, Lou. Not OK.

I mean, like, thanks for thinking of our team everything, but… yeah, no. Just… no.

 

Crotch grab in the direction of @Score_Tomlinson/@JimmyTraina.

Comments (331)

  1. The Blue Jays slipped something into the Marlins drink and took advantage of them

  2. Oh come on, they were totally asking for it

  3. I think he just sexually assaulted the position of television analyst.

  4. THE COMMENTS ON THIS POST HAVE BEEN CLOSED.

  5. Colour analysis is my game and Lou is my name, using the word rape is another game of mine.

  6. 4 or 5 years ago it would have been considered statutory rape.

  7. this is why we can’t have nice thing, guys.

  8. Pinella may have been better off suggesting AA slipped the Marlins a roofie when they weren’t looking.

  9. how bout extremely took adavantaged of

  10. Thanks Stoet for TRYING to bring awareness to the issue.
    Shame on the commenters who think it’s a joke.

  11. Oh society, when are you going to grow up?

  12. I don’t wanna say it. ummm.. fuck it I’ll say it. Toronto rammed it up to Miami’s poop chute.

  13. I kinda get when you’re coming from, but don’t you think this is over reaction a bit much? The word “rape” also has a defined meaning of the act of plunder or despoliation, i.e. the rape of the countryside. See: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape. Hence it is perfectly apropos to what the Jays did.

    I understand the colloquial use of the word has sexual overtones, but to jump on a statement that is perfectly within the regular and ordinary definition of the word is bit political correctness overreactiveness.

    Why this is even a story I don’t know.

    • You’re trying far too hard to justify something that is blatantly wrong. Stop.

      • Well so much for engaging in a dialogue. Why don’t we just tar and feather him now and get it over with?

        • You know full well that no one uses ‘rape’ in any sense but the sexual connotation anymore. There is no argument here. Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong.

          • jack morris?

          • I came from a broken home rife with violence and drugs/alchohol, so I better not see or hear the words “domestic” and/or “junkie” ever again. And no more goddamn beer talk Stoeten! It brings up bad feelings in me and reinforces alcoholism and in turn domestic abuse. Waaaaaaa!

          • Yes. Rape is wrong, and always will be.

            Using the word “rape” is another matter, as simply saying, or typing, it doesn’t involve forcibly engaging in intercourse with someone against their will.

          • Wrong? Why? Are you implying that Lou Piniella thinks its ok to take individuals against their will? Or do you think he was just speaking in terms we all use behind closed doors and then pretend to be offended by once they see the light of day? A lot of people need to grow up and stop trying to make an issue out of every thing. It’s a waste of time. If any one of you were sitting at a ball game beside Lou and he made the same reference you wouldn’t flinch, save for the laughter that would ensue. In fact, I’m convinced that all he said in such a meeting would be repeated by you, verbatim, for the rest of your life.

        • PC police say you can’t use “tar and feathered” anymore.

          • LOL…

            well played Mauer.

            I have no problem with use of the word rape personally. Anyone who does is looking for reasons to be upset.

            • Using rape as he did would be fine in conversation amongst people who know that each other are comfortable with it. On tv, for anyone of any sensitivity to hear is a bit out of bounds.

              For example, look at this thread.

              • Agreed if a guy at the poker game gets bad beaten then he “got raped”…among friends no problem but on a sports broadcast that every demographic can watch not
                cool at all…

            • Or they’ve had a shitty personal experience where somebody violated them and the trivializing of that makes them upset.

      • Yes because the mere use of the word “rape” reinforces the acceptance of such an act in the minds of you know….complete fucking pyschos.

      • Gooder, thanks for bringing some sanity to these comments. I’ve been stunned at the amount of hatred for women on the internet lately (check out manboobz) and the acceptance of rape culture is a bit part of that (as seen in the recent Ohio rape case)

    • Thank you good sir for the voice of sanity in an increasingly insane world. Exactly what I was thinking.

  14. I bet big lou knows a thing or two about rape.

  15. You guys are fucked.

  16. Well…….ummmm……..ya……soooooo……ummmm……..how was everyones day?

  17. Did commenters you guys!

  18. What poor taste by Pinella and the commenters so far.

  19. I think he instantly realized that he fucked up and tried to backtrack. Which is something, I guess.

  20. Well, rape aint no thing to Loria, he’s wanted for murder in Montreal.

  21. How does someone who speaks for a living not find a proper word other than “rape?” Did he never evaluate lop-sided trade before The League came out? This faux-pas has many layers of awful.

  22. As someone who plays way too many online games, yes, the Jays raped the Marlins in that trade.

  23. Who cares? Mildly inappropriate, but everyone is so goddamn sensitive about this kind of stuff. He obviously wasn’t trying to compare one to the other …. it’s hyperbole. Big f**king deal.

  24. Oh gawd this place is lame as hell. RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE. Get over it

  25. Is the world so politically correct now that you can’t use the name of a crime to describe something? Are folks bashed when they say “he murdered that ball”? People seriously need to calm the fuck down. Rape is a horrible act! Don’t say the word! No I don’t take it lightly, I wish all rapists would be publicly hung, but really…give the righteousness a break. Go Jays!

    • Exactly!! Well said.

      I have heard people say thing like “The Yankees killed the Sox over the weekend”, or “holy shit, we got murdered”. Who cares????

      Nobody is trying to diminish the awfulness that is rape. Jesus, you guys are sensitive!!

    • … “The Jays stole that one from the O’s in the 9th” … nope, because there have been people actually robbed that would not take kindly to this.

      “The Nats’ offence really laid a beating on the Phils” – nope, people have been injured in beatings in the past. Unacceptable!!

      Man, complain about something that matters.

      • +10000000

        The pompous, smug moral righteousness is absurd.

        • Do you guys ever talk to women?

          • Oh my god!! Yes, I do Stoeten. I live with a girl and have a great relationship with my mother. I know you’re the judge, jury, and executioner on all that is proper in the world, but please don’t pretend that any differing opinion would have all women up in arms. Some people just take shit more seriously than others. I guess your lady friends wouldn’t just see this as hyperbolic, but you know what, mine would. Get over yourself.

          • Happily married! Grew up with two female siblings otherwise known as sisters. And yourself?

            • And they’d feel about your stance that this isn’t worth even having a conversation on how?

              • They would be more concerned about convicted rapists being locked up much longer than they currently are. Know how I know? I just asked her. Is she wrong? Want me to tell her she should be more concerned about a baseball analyst using the word rape in a grammatically accepted format? I can but I can tell you she doesn’t care what you think you know.

                Oh, she also asked me to remind you that it’s not only females that can be raped.

              • My fiance would think you guys are fucking retarded for even talking about this “news”. I can definitely say the same for her friends. I can just picture their faces if I told a group of them what the Jays blog I read was talking about today. One love Stotes.

                • Fair enough, but not all would agree. And I think discussion is important. Even when it turns into whatever clusterfuck has gone on here.

                • PC Police says you can’t use the term retarded anymore

                  • My wife was raped, as a teenager, and she said that the use of the word retarded is more offensive then the use of the word raped when used in the format Lou used.

                    I know everyone has opinions on the mater, thats awesome. But i think context is the most important thing….

                    Anyone know any rappers that dont drop the N bomb or use the word rape in their “music”
                    besides fresh prince of course.

          • Yeah, I’m sure that they talk to women at the PUA outings every week.

          • Have you stoeten?!? I know several woman tht use the word rape in the same context Lou did. Stop trying to be the moral protector of every over sensitive cry baby while simultaneously using other offensive comments to back your point. It’s pathetic.

  26. So when exactly did the word rape used to its proper meaning get on the pc police no no list anyways? LOL what a world we live in.

    Less hipster, more baseball

    • Unless its Jay Happster, that guys funny as fuck

      • Hey, guy who writes JA Happster here! Now everyone stop justifying colloquial use of the word rape.

    • What a world we live in? Have you read half the comments in this thread?

      • I have, have you? LOL. Talk about something that matters. This doesn’t. Also it is amusing that you think this clip will be disappeared like jimmy hoffa or something. Update your talking point site from hawker to something more intelligent and serious please so if you continue to insist on bringing up your social justice agenda in your baseball blog it will be less so obviously in the shallow end of seriousness and importance.

        • Guy, if you had as firm a grip on what’s important as you think you probably wouldn’t be going so insistent on hopelessly not getting it. Two, MLB doesn’t allow videos on YouTube, so that’s all I’m referencing.

          Feel free to offer some “more serious and intelligent” alternatives to “hawker”.

          • Figured out it was gawker did you? Was I wrong? Update your RSS feed, for the love of Pete.

            • Alternatives, please. Don’t go talking up your supposed intelligent reading list and not have anything to back it up. Better hurry or it will look like you’re cheating.

              • Well I am not a social justice advocate looking for talking points but I suppose an online subscription to the NYT would be more upstream of gawker. Myself I am a more of a fan of freedom so I enjoy the weekly standard et al. We need more Bill Buckley’s in the world. I also enjoy reason magazine as well. These will be a cold shower from where you are coming from though so stick to the times. Washington post too.

    • What bothers me is that we don’t even call rape “rape” anymore. We say “she was sexually assaulted” so we can pretend the guy just grabbed her butt.

      • ???

        not sure where this is coming from. it is still called rape, believe me. sexual assault is a broader term. rape is specific to penetrative sex, i believe whereas something like molestation should be defined as a sexual assault.

        • They don’t call penetrative rape “rape”. It is considered a loaded term that will sway jurors because rape is so bad. So we literally pretend that rapists didn’t rape.

          I’m not against the jokes in this thread. Though I choose not to make any myself. My point is we seem to get more touchy about the words than the actual acts sometimes.

          • ok, sorry. totally misinterpreted your point, which is a good one.

          • Sexual assault is the catch-all legal term within Canada. Rape is no longer a term used in court up here. However, I believe “rape” is still used in some (all?) jurisdictions in the US to distinguish different acts of sexual assault.

    • Not exactly on point, but this post referencing Jason Alexander’s “gay” joke addresses the importance of language:

      http://higherunlearning.com/2012/11/11/cant-you-take-a-joke/

  27. Can we please talk about Romero?

  28. I demand the name of this blog be immediately changed. Alcoholism runs rampant in my family. It’s truly a disease. Glorifying becoming enebriated is not appropriate in a socially aware civilization.

    • that parallel comparison was rape.

    • No matter what you say, somebody, somewhere, can find something offensive about it.

      Rape is a horrible crime, perhaps even the worst crime there is, but using the term here should not be considered offensive.
      “murdered the ball” or “he killed it” were good examples earlier but even more, rape is a legitimate word used for pillaging. My books on the Vikings (don’t ask) talk about how they raped towns. It means plunder.

      As to “how can he not find a better word”: As I’m getting older, terms from my youth are now becoming politically incorrect. Like “calling a spade a spade”. It’s hard to change the language you’ve known since you were a kid without having to be so careful about how you speak.
      Do we really want a society where you’re scared to speak your mind off the top of your head for fear of offending someone? Do we have to script and rehearse what we say? We’re not robots and can’t automatically switch off terms we’ve been accustomed to for years because suddenly peope don’t like it.

      I can guarantee there are perfectly acceptable terms in commonn use today that will offend people when used 20 years from now. If you live long enough, you’re going to offend someone by a term you use that you never meant as offensive.

      Give the guy a break. If he was joking about sexual assault, then bad on him.
      He wasn’t.
      We should be more concerned with intent and actions then a poor choice of words.

      • yeah, and to continue on with your amazing point: you know, people just don’t talk enough about how rough it was on those poor slaveholders when slavery was banned and then everything was all DIFFERENT all of a sudden and they had to try and get used to it!

        *sigh*

        it’s so hard to be so sheltered and privileged sometimes! especially when i’m asked to consider the consequences of my own actions and words! i’ve just had so little practice at that! it’s totally unfair!

      • Amen Looper!

        Can’t see Pinella’s comments, but one could certainly say that Toronto plundered the Marlins best players in that trade, which is one longstanding definition of ‘rape’.

        As an enthusiastic, cunning linguist, one of the great joys of language is it’s richness and how so many words have varied meanings and useages.

        Trying to ban words because we don’t like one context they are used in is silly. Word play is fun, so relax and we can all have a gay old time!

        • would i ever want to ban the word rape? no.

          do i want to be reasonably self aware? yes.

          does someone reasonably self aware use the word rape to describe how awesome something is? no.

          • “Well they just, I don’t want to use the word ‘raped,’ but they basically took a lot of talent from the Miami Marlins,” Piniella said.

            In this case, ‘plundered’ would be interchangeable with raped – he’s spelled out perfectly that definition of rape in the second part of the sentence.

            And Pinella hardly sounds like someone who’s not self-aware, as he prefaces it with a caveat. He’s basically saying people might not like the word, but it’s hard not to characterize the trade any other way.

            I must have missed the part you allude to where he says how ‘awesome’ rape is.

            Sure, it’s not politically correct to use the word ‘rape’ and Pinella concedes that from the get-go, so here’s to Lou for nevertheless fighting the good fight for linguistic richness and maturity.

            • I don’t know anyone who would describe themselves as a “plunder” survivor. Do you? Not the same.

              Rape, as a word, is just way, way more resonant and specific. It had personal & often traumatic meaning for people in a way that “plunder” just doesn’t.

              Pinella doesn’t say rape itself is awesome, no. But he’s using rape as an analogy. And in the analogy, the Blue Jays are the rapists. And he gives his analogy in order to communicate the idea that the Blue Jays did really well for themselves in that transaction, in the way that a rapist does really well for himself by raping a woman.

              See where we run into the problematic part of this?

              It’s that “awesome if you can get away with it!” treatment of rape that is so fucking gross and so fucking prevalent. And that’s the way he’s talking about it. Otherwise, his analogy makes no sense.

              • In a thread of ridiculous comments, a winner has been found for literally the dumbest comments I have read in a while.

                “I don’t know anyone who would describe themselves as a “plunder” survivor. Do you? Not the same.”

                It is interchangeable in the usage he suggested. that doesn’t mean plunder could be used as a substitute for forced sex.

                Seriously, I think many folks are aware of the usage of rape to mean plunder. Some folks with a lesser understanding of vocabulary need a thicker skin.

  29. Some of you are acting like human garbage.

    • Get over yourself

    • Do tell, Attenborough. I assume you’re on the ultra-PC side here judging by the condescending and pedestal-perching tone of your post.

      • Are these the type of stains i walk by in Toronto? I’m nowhere near PC, but certain things i don’t find funny. I’m glad you figured out who i am by me simply typing one sentence. Mongoloid?

        • Yup. Doesn’t it make you feel good about yourself?

        • I don’t find it funny either. I just don’t find it noteworthy.

          In fact, it could be said that the only reason that this was posted to begin with is because a certain blogger DID find it funny. Otherwise, why post it?

          Either way, call me names if you want. I am human garbage for having a different opinion than you. Makes sense.

          • Get out of my head!

            • Well, why did you post it? Is this supposed to be some big exposé on ol’ Lou? I guess it did generate a lot of comments and page views in an otherwise dead time, so job well done.

              Whatever.

              • STILL IN MY HEAD!

                By the way, you understand that you’re the thing you purport to hate, right? The PC police? You’re pretty much exactly the other side of that same coin. How’s that going for you?

                • I hadn’t thought about this at all last night, but thought I would check this morning to see what you had to say, because I was sure it’d be something snide and condescending. Once again, you didn’t disappoint.

                  The difference is, Stoeten, that I don’t “hate” anyone for having these more PC-leaning views. Unlike the many people here who unleash their vitriol on others (I am looking at you, Attenborough), cowardly hiding behind the anonymity of these comments, I think it’s entirely fair to have an opinion one way or the other. I just debate without resorting to name-calling … unless, of course, I am called a name first, then unfortunately I succumb to my more primative side and respond accordingly.

                  Anyway, no hate here, and I’m certainly not applauding Lou’s choice of words. I just don’t see how it’s noteworthy.

  30. He could have said destroyed, or owned or screwed, but he went with rape. What can you say – limited vocabulary and lack of tack.

    I like the last thing he said though.

  31. Lots of rape jokes in the comments section here. Can there be such a thing as a good rape joke? What exactly does a totally acceptable rape joke sound like? Thoughts?

    The problem with making rape jokes, maybe, is that it’ll probably be heard/read by at least a couple of rape survivors, since rape survivors are everywhere. And the consequences for the person making the joke are going to be very low in almost every case because rape jokes are totally normal. Because rape is actually totally normal, too, at least in the sense that it happens a lot. So that’s a thing to consider.

    I want there to be such a thing as a hilarious rape joke, but I’m not sure that it exists and I’m pretty sure I’m not going to read it here.

    • A funny rape joke is one that YOU hear and YOU laugh at. Simple as that. You don’t define funny by what others tell you is supposed to funny or what others seem as acceptable and wether or not it fits their standards. That said, Lou was not attempting humour. It was hyperbole, and hyperbole is often used in place of intelligent descripters.

  32. OK, kids. Shut it down. You’ve had your fun.

    Had a noise complaint. Heard there’s been drinking… let’s see some IDs.

    Am I confusing my PC Police job with my regular police job again? Ah, well. Egregious stuff here, either way.

    • Lotta fun in here today, I’m gonna get back to my work.

      I’d like to thank everyone who participated in having fun for starting this fire.

      I’d like to thank gooder for giving me the motivation to keep reading

      I’d like to thank PC Police for hilariously wrapping it up.

      Well done, everybody.

    • Fuck PC! Just don’t say things that are going actively cause another actual human person to feel like a piece of shit. Using the word rape in this context is going to make some people feel like shit, in some cases because they’ve actually been fucking raped.

      • Really? You know this how exactly? Think recovering alcoholics would like the title of this site? LOL so ridiculous.

        • Statements like this.

        • Great comparison, man! I’m sure that your girlfriend is really going to find that comforting when she confides in you that she was raped as a teenager. You can tell to stop whining about it because you used to have a bit of drinking problem in college, but you got over that! You’ll totally understand, dude! Congratulations.

          The element your missing here in your analysis is POWER. Rape is about power. People get away with rape because men have more power than women in our society. Alcoholism is what, a medical condition? Hard to deal with, sure, but a totally different thing.

          • +infinity.

            Oil, Stoeten, you are making my day. I am so sick of rape culture.

          • Hey Einstein,
            I wasn’t talking about rape. I was talking about Lou Pinella using the word rape in a grammatically correct format not being the end of the world. If you try and think about it a little you may be able to discern the difference and then maybe, just maybe be able to see my point.
            Of course this is all under the assumption that your moral outrage is because you really want to bring awareness to rape in the world and not a bald faced attempt to feel better about yourself.

            • You too, champ. You’re no different than the PC Police you purport to hate.

              • I most certainly am different. I am not telling you what you are and are not allowed to say. It’s not that complicated. I judge Pinella based on his actions etc. Not because he is a 70 plus hear old who isn’t up on the latest fashion in what not to say from the far left. I can’t recall Pinella making any excuses for rape or downloading rape in any overt manner. If he did I would condemn him for his outrageous values but not because he said it. You know, what liberalism was in the 60′s. I don’t recognize this decades version of liberalism as having anything in common with its supposed ancestors

                • “From the far left.” And there it is. You are indeed telling people what they are, but whatever. That little gem of a quote was all that was needed.

                  • Ummmm huh? I am not telling anyone what they are allowed to say. You are. That’s why I am different. Not complicated. So I am not the opposite of the pc police. At all.

                    • Yes, you actually exactly are. You are precisely telling people how to think, who to judge and who not to judge, what’s acceptable to be outraged about and what isn’t. You exactly are. It’s pretty hilarious, actually.

                    • Uh, no I am not. You are saying that Pinella shouldn’t have said that because *sensitive*
                      I’m saying that’s dumb of you to say because *reality*
                      I did NOT say that you can’t say that.
                      copiche?

                      I did infer that it comes off as kind of dumb and desperate like you have a militant feminist watching what you write over your shoulder who you are either a little afraid of or are trying to impress.

                      But whatever *your blog* amirite

                    • I like how you’ve not even bothered to waste words on what were going to be the most ignorant parts of your comment by going with simply *sensitive* and *reality*. But, of course, as someone who is precisely no different than the PC Police he purports to hate, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised to see you acting as though you ought to be the unquestioned arbiter of “reality.” Oh, and of course, only a militant feminist could possibly think this one way, right? That’s not at all like the exact hopelessly narrow other side of the coin to what the “PC Police” types you purport to hate might think.

                      Sorry to hold this uncomfortable truth up to your face.

              • LOL thinking for yourself and being able to discuss issues rationally is foreign to you isn’t it?
                Let me guess, still going to university?

  33. I think it was really important that you posted this link on DJF – so thanks for that. I think that more men have to start speaking out against rape culture in sports. But I think some of the folks on this board making comments should take a step back to think long and hard about making jokes about rape.

    And for the record – “PC” or “Ultra PC” is a concept used by people who try to justify their unacceptable behaviour by blaming the victim, which, not so coincidentally is how rape culture is spread as well.

    I feel bad that folks in Miami have to deal with a greedy and terrible owner like Loria, but I am glad the Jays picked up the players they did and I’m looking forward to the upcoming season.

    • I’ve been near speechless at these comments. So I’m just gonna say Thanks Craig.

    • While it may be said that misogyny in sports exists which has lead to what you so broadly characterized as a rape culture(evidence can be seen in the recent Ohio football players rape case). However, deciding that a word cannot be used, regardless of the context, is not an effective policy in preventing that culture. It’s extremely frustrating that expression and speech is being targeted in this country by people who claim to be liberal minded.

      What hurts about this is that I consider myself extremely liberal and the removal of certain elements of speech from the discourse is ineffective at best and draconian at worst. It seems some people are just trained to react to verbal cues such as “rape”, take out a spreadsheet of inappropriate words, see the word and react against it with vigor.

      While Lou may have been wise to use a different word, he certainly wasn’t condoning sexual assault or mitigating rape victims. If he was caught saying something that marginalized the fear most women have of being sexually assaulted, or anything to do with actual sexual assault, I would agree that its inappropriate. However, when put into context, Lou Pinella’s poor choice of words has zero impact on any woman being victimized

      • But see, this way of thought would actually be much too rational. An when people are selective in their outrage, being rational is not an option.

        • @ Mani I didn’t say I was outraged. Nor am I making broad characterizations. Your example of the Ohio rape case is a good example of rape in sports and the culture that makes such things a lived reality for many people (primarily women) but not the only one. Misogyny as you pointed out is indeed rampant in sports culture and rape culture is one of the ways in which this system of power and violence is permeated in our society. It is not a coincidence that they are linked. They exist beyond sports of course, in club culture, online, in the family, etc. It’s a problem and I think we need to step up to start dealing with it. If you disagree that’s fine, but I’m not just some random jackass posting on this page to propagate some ideology – I’m trying to practice this within my friend circles, on my baseball team, etc. It’s not easy. For me or for my teammates, but it’s the type of thing that actually creates change.

          Lou Pinella himself realized what he was saying was inappropriate when he said he didn’t want to use that word. This isn’t about policing words – this is about re-thinking the ways that we think about, treat, and respect each other. And particularly about breaking down misogyny. Rape culture is a system of power and violence and entitlement that is rife within sports, but is also rife among sports fans. Evidence of this can be found above in the comments people have already made.

          I respect that Pinella’s words were a mistake and I think it’s important for us to discuss why it was a mistake. But my comments were directed primarily at the folks in this community who think its funny to make the rape jokes that they do above. I don’t have to list them out, they are all there for you to read. Nor did I say that you can’t say what you want – I said that people should check themselves, reflect on why you feel you feel entitled to make the types of jokes that you do (not you but those who posted).

          @McLean_Deluxe – thanks for the tip about rationality dripping with self-righteousness.

          • @craig – You articulate your view very well and I agree with your very rational assessment as to why it may be an issue. My only contention is that while you seem bright and well reasoned in your position, many others are not in their’s. Therefore, the discourse becomes to instinctively ban the use of speech they deem offensive. This could be applied to social issues such as sexual assault and LGBT rights or religious issues such as negative depictions of the church. As such, I would rather see a protection of all expression, so that we don’t have to pick and choose who is deemed worthy of having their speech protected.

            A great example of this was when the ACLU defended a high school teenager’s right to protest a high school’s “pro gay day”. While the ACLU(I hold their position) have been champions of LGBT community for decades, they understood that unpopular speech should still be protected. Though, I vehemently disagree with his personal position, we must protect it,

            Cheers

            • @Mani thanks for the respectful and thoughtful response. Those are all too rare in this format and context. And yeah, I don’t think banning words is a good response. I do think reflecting on and making an effort to change the way we talk about, treat, respect each other is vital to breaking down cultures of misogyny and sexism (of which rape culture plays a significant role) and I appreciated the context and examples you used to bring across your point.
              respect.

  34. i was watching a re-cap of a brewers game a few years ago and I swear the Announcer called Braun the hebrew hammer, he proceeds to hit a homerun and right right after calling him the hebrew hammer he said he nailed one…. i couldn’t decide if it was crucifixion joke or not

    • I think it was more of a “hammers hammer nails” joke.

      However, given how certain Christians may react to such a line, I would have to give the speaker a warning, at the very least.

  35. I worry about using the word niggardly

  36. Flaunting their wears all over South Beach it was so obvious that Miami was asking for it.

  37. I only ever hear the phrase ‘political correctness’ from people who oppose it. The rest of the world calls the same process by a variety of other names: “manners”, “tact”, “sensitivity” spring to mind.

    • No matter your position in this particular situation, please don’t tell me you’re denying that the world has become overly sensitive. Helicopter parents, kids being expelled for toy pink guns, etc etc. This is no longer a rational world we live in.

      • Maybe we’ve just become more empathetic as we’re exposed to greater experiences and people that in the Middle Ages and this has given us a perspective on how to better deploy language?

        • I’m not quite sure I understand what you’re getting at. If you’d like to elaborate I’ll check back on the post.

  38. I think this is all in good fun but lets face it. The Jays did to the Marlins exactly the same thing that Loria did to Miami taxpayers. With that perspective, maybe rape is a more appropriate term that it seemed at first.

  39. well, I don’t know what word characterizes this trade, but the Prime Minister of Defence is now a Pyrite instead of a D-bag – messes up the face off with him when the Jays head to AZ in September.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/spring2013/story/_/id/9076307/arizona-diamondbacks-trade-john-mcdonald-pittsburgh-pirates

  40. And the comments go nuts

  41. Is it April 2nd yet?

  42. No matter what you say, somebody, somewhere, can find something offensive about it.

    Rape is a horrible crime, perhaps even the worst crime there is, but using the term here should not be considered offensive.
    “murdered the ball” or “he killed it” were good examples earlier but even more, rape is a legitimate word used for pillaging. My books on the Vikings (don’t ask) talk about how they raped towns. It means plunder.

    As to “how can he not find a better word”: As I’m getting older, terms from my youth are now becoming politically incorrect. Like “calling a spade a spade”. It’s hard to change the language you’ve known since you were a kid without having to be so careful about how you speak.
    Do we really want a society where you’re scared to speak your mind off the top of your head for fear of offending someone? Do we have to script and rehearse what we say? We’re not robots and can’t automatically switch off terms we’ve been accustomed to for years because suddenly peope don’t like it.

    I can guarantee there are perfectly acceptable terms in commonn use today that will offend people when used 20 years from now. If you live long enough, you’re going to offend someone by a term you use that you never meant as offensive.

    Give the guy a break. If he was joking about sexual assault, then bad on him.
    He wasn’t.
    We should be more concerned with intent and actions then a poor choice of words.

    • Ugh, sorry this messed up and posted in two spots…

    • It’s not about sanitizing the world of any word anyone may find offensive, though. The flippancy of the comparison coupled with the fact that– quite obviously– there are people still out there who don’t understand why being flippant about it is an inappropriate thing to do, especially on a damn TV broadcast is more the issue. And I’d suggest that’s true of this term, as opposed to theft or murder, because those are things no one has to be hand-held into taking as seriously as they deserve.

      • Andrew, over half of sexual assaults victims and offenders are intoxicated at the time of the offence. Therefore, your flippant use of the domain “DrunkJaysFans”, as well as advising the intoxication of your readers can be argued leads to more sexual assaults than Lou’s statement.

        I AM OFFENDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • Big swing and a miss.

          • There is a direct connection between alcohol and violent crime and sexual assault, rather than the heresy evidence you use. Don’t dismiss it because it disproves your outrage.

            • Where did I express what you’d call “outrage,” for one? For two, I’m not disputing that alcohol can often be connected to violent crime, it just that has nothing to do with anything that I’m talking about.

            • Mani, you are correct. Andrew and company have worked hard and have a great thing going with this site. It’s hands down the best baseball site on the Internet for multiple reasons. But…the issue of alcohol is coming to a head in society. Governments are starting to notice that it causes many problems beyond the drinking and driving issue which took so long to normalize. Tobacco was curbed by scientific fact and alcohol is causing 10 times the chaos on the physical, mental and social fabric of our society. I’m not for prohibition of course but drinking less, if at all, that’s a cool choice too, and most of all responsibly. Promoting perpetual drunkeness as an okay cultural norm will not get Andrew and the boys in trouble today, tomorrow or next week but mark my words, it will at some point become like naming this site, Drive Drunk Jays and that’s not as far away as you might think.

              • Damnit I kept posting on the wrong one

                What is at issue is people pick and choose, based on their values/beliefs what words are offensive. The flippant use of rape for some, the liberal promotion and consumption of alcohol for others(e.g. a woman sexually assault in a drunken frat environment). What I’m saying is that arbitrarily deciding what is valid and what isn’t doesn’t work. Therefore, this nitpicking of language has detrimental ramifications that apply to all of us. I don’t make rape jokes or give a shit about Lou Pinella, but it will eventually effect something I do or care about. The same people that call Lenny Bruce a genius for his progressive use of language 50 years ago were calling Tracy Morgan a bigot for the use of a word in a nightclub.

                • Sorry, but your pretending that there’s some equivalence with alcohol consumption is rendered pretty obviously absurd when you have to combine it with assault to get your point across. There is such a thing responsible, moderate drinking; there is no responsible, moderate rape. But yes, there is an element of the “arbitrary” in the evolution of what’s socially acceptable in various forms of speech– though I don’t think that’s the right word for it, because it’s certainly not random. Your saying that it doesn’t work, though, needs more substance and a way better example before it can make any sense, because right now all you’re doing is saying that nothing, in any context, is ever inappropriate to say.

                  • Alcohol and drugs are a factor in 50% (90%, college age)of sexual assault cases, often the abuser uses alcohol as an excuse for his actions. Nothing to do with other violent crimes but those stats are similar. You’re also applying your experience with “responsible” drinking with the general public. Am I wrong to say that you encourage fans to leave a drunken message at ball games? Now, I’m certainly a boozebag myself and don’t want alcohol prohibition either and I rather enjoy your site and writing.

                    Better example? In the UK they are arresting individuals for posting a picture of a burning poppy(statement of dissent, whether you agree with it). RCMP had a history of investigating LGBTs and leftists because of their values and beliefs. Sure, you can argue that these examples are hyperbolic but apparently a comic’s freedom of speech isn’t strong enough a piece of evidence.

                    Anyways, I feel pretty comfortable with my position and hope the masses don’t begin to decide who’s speech is worthy of protection and who’s is not. I’m done with this argument because you seem to be comfortable with these restrictions of speech.

                    Big fan,
                    Mani

                    • I don’t believe in restrictions of speech, Mani. Quite the opposite– look at the blog I write, for fuck sakes.

                      I do believe your example with alcohol still has nothing to do with anything we’re talking about here, though. Same with the other ones.

                  • The word “drunk” does not imply moderate drinking. Nor does the former image used for the Afternoon Hangover.

                    • That still doesn’t make the point make any sense, but OK.

                    • I’m not defending the other commenter, just saying that this blog refers more to heavy drinking than moderate drinking. I’ve drank heavily before, not saying it should be a crime.

                    • Let me simplify it
                      You: Flippantly talking about rape=contribution to the sports culture discourse that feeds into rape culture—-which unfortunately does exist

                      Me: Flippantly talking about alcohol=contribution to the romanticism of alcohol, which is a major contributor to all crime but specifically SEXUAL ASSAULT

                      Ps. Look into R. v. Daviault(1994)
                      A man was acquitted of SEXUAL ASSAULT using the defense of extreme drunkenness. If that doesn’t speak to the flippantly nature we address alcohol abuse in our society I don’t know what does

                    • Nicely put, Mani.

                    • And that’s where Andrew and the Score are vunerable and will eventually have to change the image of the site, which as I say, is simply awesome from an ‘all things baseball’ standpoint.

                    • I agree. My guess is that by the end of 2014, Stoeten’s going to have to change the name of this site.
                      It’s proably been discussed by now…

                    • There is zero equivalence between the two, Mani. Everyone, there’s enough ridiculousness in this thread already, no need for this absolute nonsense, thanks. I get that alcohol CAN contribute to crimes, but that doesn’t make it a crime itself. Cars can contribute to hit and run accidents, but that doesn’t make driving the same as the asshole who took off after hitting somebody. Stop being absurd, thanks.

                  • Is this seriously something that’s happening? Clearly these individuals you’re arguing with are either trolls or undereducated when it comes to free speech. The fundamental arguments in favour of free speech are a) that everyone deserves the right to voice their own opinion (which seems understood here), but perhaps more importantly is b) that free speech allows for the voicing of other opinions and ideas in pursuit of truth or knowledge. Therefore, criticizing the speech of another group or individual is in itself one of the most essential components of free speech. And I’m sure YOU are aware of this, but it might be helpful for some of these others to take a look at as well.

                    POLI SCI MAJOR FTW

                    • @Andrew- What I’m saying is this simple, some people are saying that speech can lead to crime. I will concede this point for the sake of sanity but that doesn’t mean we should police speech. Just like even though alcohol has been equivocally linked to Sexual assault, banning alcohol is not the way to reduce crime.

                      @Ian, good luck in you academic pursuits, you’ll soon have the whole of the world’s knowledge with your policy sci degree. #twat

                      - U of T Public Policy Grad Student(Since apparently that matters)

  43. He used the word “rape” in regards to the trade – because he knew he wouldn’t be allowed to say that the Marlins got “buttfucked” by the Jays.

    But, yes – I understand…there are other words he could have used, blah blah blah.

    • What is at issue is people pick and choose, based on their values/beliefs what words are offensive. The flippant use of rape for some, the liberal promotion and consumption of alcohol for others(e.g. a woman sexually assault in a drunken frat environment). What I’m saying is that arbitrarily deciding what is valid and what isn’t doesn’t work. Therefore, this nitpicking of language has detrimental ramifications that apply to all of us. I don’t make rape jokes or give a shit about Lou Pinella, but it will eventually effect something I do or care about. The same people that call Lenny Bruce a genius for his progressive use of language 50 years ago were calling Tracy Morgan a bigot for the use of a word in a nightclub.

      • I think you’re a bit confused about free speech. Your suggesting that people shouldn’t be able to voice their own concerns about language of others is a bit hypocritical of your arguments for free speech. The fundamental arguments in favour of free speech are a) that everyone deserves the right to voice their own opinion (which seems understood here), but perhaps more importantly is b) that free speech allows for the voicing of other opinions and ideas in pursuit of truth or knowledge. Therefore, the right to the speech of another group or individual is in itself one of the most essential components of free speech. It is what helps create values, laws, societal norms, democracy, etc, and keep those things vibrant, healthy, and evolving. So it’s fine for you to be okay with using the word rape in the way that it was, but I also think that given the plethora of very high profile rape cases the world has seen over the past 2 months and in at least one case the apathy towards the offenders, there is very just cause to take offense to the use of this word in such a casual way.

    • What is at issue is people pick and choose, based on their values/beliefs what words are offensive. The flippant use of rape for some, the liberal promotion and consumption of alcohol for others(e.g. a woman sexually assault in a drunken frat environment). What I’m saying is that arbitrarily deciding what is valid and what isn’t doesn’t work. Therefore, this nitpicking of language has detrimental ramifications that apply to all of us. I don’t make rape jokes or give a shit about Lou Pinella, but it will eventually effect something I do or care about. The same people that call Lenny Bruce a genius for his progressive use of language 50 years ago were calling Tracy Morgan a bigot for the use of a word in a nightclub.

  44. but why didn’t cooper just tag him!!!!!!

  45. Tisdale, Saskatchewan town motto – “The Land of Rape and Honey”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisdale,_Saskatchewan

    I have sighted a perfectly acceptable useage of the term “Rape” I’m waiting for a retraction Stoeten of the comment that it’s use is unacceptable.

    Hahaha

    • You don’t get it.

      • someone’s a little sensitive. hope your uncle didn’t sneak into your room late one drunken christmas night.

        • Not sensitive, just saying that you literally don’t get it.

          • Just wondering what is the source of this passionate self righteous indignation. Seems that you are a bit hypocritical when you operate a site called Drunk Jays Fans and comment everyday in ways that would be deemed inappropriate to be said on TV Broadcast then get all up in arms anytime someone offends your progressive sensibilities. Don’t get me wrong I love the blog and the comments are generally funny but I can’t figure out if your an advocate of free speech or sensorship?

            • Free speech, obviously. Censorship is the wrong word for what’s happening here. Sensorship is even more wrong.

              • Side step the argument and focus on spelling mistakes… that must be straight out of the hipster message board argument handbook. don’t worry though I’m still gonna read your blog three times a day but my opinion of you isn’t as high.

                • I didn’t sidestep, I told you censorship isn’t the word for what’s happening here. I have no power to censor anyone but the commenters on this site (which you’ll notice I haven’t). I just pointed out an uncomfortable, inappropriate comment on a TV broadcast, read through the parade of rape jokes and “this isn’t important, why are you making me think about this?” that followed, and have reacted accordingly and– I think– pretty calmly. Not sure where up in arms is coming from. Read what little text there is in the post– shit, I even used the word myself, non-air-quoted. Re-read what I wrote in the post about Zaun’s tweets that time too. Not a whole lot of what I’d call outrage– certainly not what usually passes for it on this site– at delicate sensibilities being offended.

            • The form of “rape” is an archaic term for canola ie: rapeseed oil…don’t be a dumb fuck…

  46. What’d he say? The videos taken down

  47. Thank you MLB Media for taking my choice away whether to view this clip or not…

  48. Mirror anyone? I want to see that clip…

  49. Ugh.. I guess its too late to tell everyone to have a sense of humour about this…

  50. If he meant pillaged, he should have said that instead of ‘rape’. I don’t think I’m alone in hearing rape and immediately thinking about the sexual crime as opposed to a village’s assets being taken. He used a poor choice of words.

    I haven’t agreed with the other crap that Stoeton has written about in terms of social injustice, but I do agree with him here – that Lou should not have said rape.

    Whatever. Stoeton, love the baseball analysis. I read this site everyday. Everyday. And you can write about whatever you want to write about on your site. Just a suggestion: stick to baseball, I find it much more interesting. I’ll read about the other stuff somewhere else.

    Keep up the good work.

    Go Petes Go

    • I think just having the conversations is more important than anything, so unfortunately there’s little chance I stay in any kind of tidy little baseball-only box. So, be warned, you may have to think about something uncomfortable every once in a while.

      Thanks for the kind words, though.

      • I think adding a couple sentences to the actual post would clear up a lot of this (it’s tough to read through hundreds of comments when you have other things to do). Something along the lines of “the word “rape” tends to slip into our vocabulary, but broadcasters are specifically trained to censor what they say before they say it.”

        Or something entirely different. But something, anything, that would allow the comments here to take a turn towards the meaningful or productive rather than vitriolic would be much appreciated. Personally, I can’t figure out your stance from the comments you’ve been making.

      • For the record this Ben is not me. I’m the other Ben, and I do not approve his message.

  51. video is down. someone help find me a new link.

  52. Alright, I’m sorry I used the fuckin’ word “rape”. It was fuckin’ insensitive of me and I take it back and replace it with “the Miami Marlins took it in the ass like a champ”. Better? Me too.

  53. Does this mean the trade for Dickey was consensual?

  54. Please don’t shit down Lou’s throat or tell him to suck it.
    That would be going too far.

  55. Geeze, why is everyone so upset. This isn’t the first time AA used his giant rape stick, right Stoeten?

    http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2011/07/27/alex-dont-give-a-damn-about-his-bad-reputation/

    • “Holy fuck, I’m not sure my heart could take it anyway. No need to get greedy, Alex. Maybe spare the other 29 GMs your giant rape stick, huh?”

      lol… Funny article Stoeten, but you’re a gaping hypocrite.

      • It appears you should be a bit more selective with your selective outrage Stoeten.

        If you were in the big time right now this would be pretty much career over the hypocrisy is so bad.

        anyways baseball!

        • Nah, I think most people would get both the context that was written in, the fact the people are, in fact, allowed to evolve on these matters, and would have probably read what I’ve written here. Not, of course, the ones who go trying to extrapolate outrage out of whatever I’ve said, just so that they can push back at it with their own misguided righteous indignation, but fortunately that’s not most people. Something something baseball.

          • Stoeton, buddy. You had to say “rape” in a previous post? That’s much the same way that crazy Lou said it today.

            You’ve got no argument now…

        • Holy shit. I fucking remember that. I guess I’m more sensitive to the word than I thought.

      • PWNED (peened) (penised) (raped)

    • Guilty. Now please go and actually look at what I’ve written in the post and have been writing here before you bother with this “gotcha” bullshit.

    • Just shows how easy the language slips into our vocabulary (even into things that we edit, which Lou didn’t have the chance to do). That was two years ago, and the more recent posts aren’t nearly as expletive heavy…I think something changed in how Stoeten thought about writing. It’s great that that change happened, but I don’t understand why Lou using that same language is frowned upon so heavily now.

      As other comments have pointed out, this blog still makes entire posts about baseballs being murdered, going to much greater lengths than Lou did to tie the act of hitting a baseball to the crime. If you are going to argue that “rape” should not refer to anything besides sexual assault, then the consistent position to take is that “murder” should not be used either. The issue of rape and rape culture gets a lot of airtime in the press and social media, but that doesn’t mean murder is any less objectionable. It’s just that rape usually targets a specific segment of society (women), and victims of murder can’t speak up.

      • No, its not great that it changed. It was funnier before.

      • Check some of the responses I’ve given above. Still not seeing what’s being characterized as heavy frowning, nor do I think the issue is saying violent words or tying them to baseball, because for me it’s more about how refer to rape so flippantly is different than referring to other crimes because of how the seriousness of it is not always as well understood as it should be (whereas we can’t say the same about murder or theft).

        • I got the heavy frowning from the original post: “but… yeah, no. Just… no.” It also referred partly to some of the comments.

          Also, would one’s understanding of the seriousness of rape make referring to rape OK? Because it seems like that is what you are implying here (correct me if I’m wrong).

        • It is a serious crime, and anyone advocating is repulsive to the highest degree.

          No one has advocated or encouraged that crime (I hope).

          You don’t have the luxury of laughing at a lot of these statements behind a veil of anonymity, which i can appreciate. I’m sure a lot of people here laugh at and say things (myself included) which we would not want our employers too see, which again, is a luxury you do not have.

          Its just the feigned outrage that i do not understand, to the type comments that were obviously found humorous in the past.

          The Yunel-maricon incident, Zaun Cherry at Hemingway’s incident, this Pinella comment etc. are all stupid things to say in public for generally well known personalities, that goes without saying. But why pretend we don’t make these same comments ourselves in a different (private) context, where no one will be offended, purely because they are funny.

          • “Lou’s like a head trip to listen to, cause he’s only givin you
            things you joke about with your friends inside your living room
            The only difference is he got the balls to say it
            in front of y’all and he don’t gotta be false or sugarcoated at all”

            - because why not

          • Seriously, go back and read what I wrote about any of those things. The feigned outrage is in a lot of people’s heads– particularly the outrage part. Not that I’m saying any of those things are appropriate, but I certainly haven’t been quite full of the righteous indignation people seem to just go ahead and assume I’ve been because I post something that I think is worthy of notice or discussion. That’s not to backpedal from anything, because I stand behind what I’ve been saying, it’s just, the outrage people think they’re seeing isn’t there in my words or my intentions the way I think they think it is– or sometimes find it convenient to think it is. Like, the idea that this blog has gone full on PC Gestapo because I post incidents when professionals who should know better saying things that aren’t professional or appropriate is pretty obviously absurd, I think. Letting them pass seems like tacit acceptance to me, and sorry, I don’t think any of those things are appropriate, so I don’t let them pass. But there is a difference between “hey, not cool, let’s learn from this” and “holy fuck you disgusting sub-human piece of shit” that doesn’t seem well parsed.

            • You said the same fucking thing like 5 months ago. You are a gigantic hypocrite who should just own up to the fac that you are being a gigantic hypocrite and move on.

              Frankly, anything more you say about it without a mea culpa simply loses more of the little credibility you have left.

              You are a great baseball blog writer though, so please, move on already. We are all human – we all make mistakes. The important thing is to own them. That’s how you build credibility.

              • Like I give a fuck about what you think of my credibility or what you, in your capacity as the exact same thing as the PC Police you disdain, insist I must do to regain it.

                We could have a discussion about this if you showed anything resembling a faint grasp of what I’m saying and doing here, but though I’ve been pretty clear about it in multiple comments, you’re still arguing with ghosts. Value your own time better, for fuck sakes.

    • Stoeton, buddy. You had to say “rape” in a previous post? That’s much the same way that crazy Lou said it today.

      You’ve got no argument now…

  56. So it was a legitimate rape right? Any Republicans in the crowd ?

  57. It’s on Deadspin now, if you can’t get the video to work.
    http://deadspin.com/lou-piniella-made-a-super-awkward-reference-to-rape-dur-457359619

  58. This would be no different if he said “the marlins got fucked”. Some words are not meant to be used on camera. And this motherfuckers like 100 years old, he should fucking know better.

    • The fact he’s 100 years old means it’s even more understandable why he said what he did.
      He went 95 years of his life with Rape as an acceptable term to be used when someone is pillaged, (or taken advantage of).
      Just wait until you age and terms you’ve used for years are suddenly offensive and innapropriate.
      It’s inevitable that Washington Redskins will have to change their name, and I guarantee there will be people for years after the change who will slip and call them the redskins.

      • I did. I stopped using words like rape, faggot and Jew by my mid 20s. Some words deserve a measure of discretion IMO

        • In my mid twenties I stopped using those words as well and horrified when my grandfather would continue to use them.
          It’s easier to control your language when you are younger.
          When you’re in your 60′s, it’s much harder to stop using words you’ve used all your life.
          I cringe whenver I hear a friend say “let’s call a spade a spade”.
          Then he’ll say “Oops, I mean call it what it is.”
          The longer you’ve lived your life accustomed to certain terms, the more likely it is you’ll slip and use them.
          Go to an old folks home and the language you’ll hear is shocking.

  59. I grew up a Mariners fan when Lou was manager. Childhood hero- will always love him. I’m also a feminist. What he said is not the worst, but that he said it at all shows that rape is widely misunderstood and trivialized. For all of you who tried to compare rape to murder and alcoholism- rape is about power, and is also about gender. The reactions on this post are disgusting. The fact that youre all LOSING YOU SHIT that djf would interrupt sports reporting to talk about this proves how trivialized rape is.

    FYI rape culture is a thing- read some shit and stop being assholes.

    http://rantagainsttherandom.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/so-youre-tired-of-hearing-about-rape-culture/

    • +1

    • Boys aren’t raped?

    • “The fact that youre all LOSING YOU SHIT that djf would interrupt sports reporting to talk about this proves how trivialized rape is.”

      Nope, it doesn’t.

      Anyone can spin any situation and present it from their own perspective.

      The fact of the matter is that this is a baseball blog. Commentators here lose their shit if someone makes a comment about the Toronto Maple Leafs or hockey.
      The fact people don’t think this is a proper forum has nothing to do with what topic it is in so much as it’s a topic that it’s not about baseball.

  60. I’ve been posting here as “Ben” for most of the last year. Please note, I am not the one writing screeds of stuff I can’t be bothered to read, but with which I suspect I do not agree.

    So again, for the record, that guy is not me.

  61. Why didn’t he just tag him?

  62. What we’ve got here is failure to communicate. Some men you can’t reach…

    • “….just like hawhat we had here last week, whick is the way he wants it. I dont like it any more than you do…..”

      All I know is Evan Longoria is going to be “Luke” tomorrow, and IM GONNA BE GODDAMNED BOSS!

  63. God. I’m sick of your rants Ben.

  64. At least it’s bot Happ romero

  65. This is probably an exercise in futility, as I’m sure the whinging “Waaaaaa PC Police!” hoardes will continue along their merry way.

    But.

    There are a few relevant points here. Rape is a gendered crime. It does happen to men, but it happens to women with far greater frequency. It’s a safe bet that most adult women have legitimately worried about being raped, and about 1/4 of adult women have been.

    The prevalence of rape in our culture leaves a great deal of trauma in it’s wake, for survivors, and friends, families and partners of survivors. The funny thing about trauma is it sticks around, and impacts people’s lives in unpredictable ways. Sudden movements, a particular song, or smell, and even WORDS can trigger someone to enter the traumatic mental or emotional state that resulted from their rape.

    So, it’s entirely possible, and given a big enough audience, entirely likely, that casual comments about rape would trigger someone in the audience, to re-traumatize them. When some like me says, “Don’t casually talk about raping someone, or use ‘getting raped’ as a colloquial term,” what I’m really saying is that your language, whatever your intention has an actual chance of causing pain to someone that hears it.

    It’s really not about a word, or words being “offensive”, its about causing actual pain for real people. You can right that off as PC bullshit, but don’t try to make the case that nobody gets hurt by that language, because it’s not true. You can say you don’t want to worry about your language kinda sorta maybe hurting someone at some point, ’cause you don’t want to censor yourself, but don’t confuse that with suggesting that your language won’t hurt anyone, because sometime it probably will.

    If your desire to talk casually about rape like it doesn’t cause untold horror for women around the world outstrips your desire to not incidentally traumatize someone, whether someone you know and love or just someone in earshot, then by all means, talk casually about rape. But please, spare everyone the whining about your plight.

    • Well said but it raises a question.
      When does it end?
      Who is the judge of what is offensive or not.

      BTW: To be clear I hate the rape culture. So this is just about the language.

      Ok, so for arguments sake, let’s say I agree we should never use the word “rape” other than in the sexual assult contect. Despite the fact it’s been used for centures to describe pillaging.

      Many soldiers have post traumatic stress disorder from the battles they’ve endured. Does that mean we can’t say about a game “that was a battle”? Does that trivialize their trauma? We can’t really argue that a rape victim (male or female) had no choice and a vet chose to go to war so the rape trauma is worse. Trauma is trauma.

      Alcoholism has caused trauma and destroyed families. Drunks have caused a lot of trauma for others and themselves. Is it wrong to use “drunk Jays fan”?

      Why is it not offensive to say “Jays got killed”?

      i don’t know. I’m not traumatized by anything so I cant speak about the effect a word has on someone’s psyche. It just really seems like there is always something that people can turn into a big deal if they so choose.

      So many things would have gone unnoticed and not bothered anyone at all until people who are looking for things to get upset about point it out and then it becomes something. The remarkable thing is that often it’s not even people who have the reason to be offended who are the ones screaming about the offence.

      • Some good thoughts… a few more:

        > When does it end? Who is the judge of what is offensive or not.

        It’s up to individuals to decide for themselves, but they can hopefully do so with full information. For me, it’s not about “offense”, which is where you get the framing of language being “politically correct”. It’s about causing language that doesn’t actively harm others.

        I draw that line more sharply than most others. It fucking sucks that we live in a society swimming in trauma. I can understand people getting defensive if they don’t understand why their asked to change their language,but attacking the person who asks someone to use language in a way that is mindful of this reality is a shitty response. I’m not saying there are clear, or easy lines to draw.

        > Ok, so for arguments sake, let’s say I agree we should never use the word “rape” other than in the sexual assult contect. Despite the fact it’s been used for centures to describe pillaging.

        Language is pretty contextual, and what’s appropriate can change change with culture, and history. “Swastika” is an example here. I’d argue that growing cultural awareness of the damage cause by rape in the sexual assault context justifies moving away from past colloquial usage.

        > Many soldiers have post traumatic stress disorder from the battles they’ve endured. Does that mean we can’t say about a game “that was a battle”? Does that trivialize their trauma? We can’t really argue that a rape victim (male or female) had no choice and a vet chose to go to war so the rape trauma is worse. Trauma is trauma.

        > Alcoholism has caused trauma and destroyed families. Drunks have caused a lot of trauma for others and themselves. Is it wrong to use “drunk Jays fan”? Why is it not offensive to say “Jays got killed”?

        Again, (for me) it’s not about being “offensive”, which makes me think more about obscenity, it’s about being harmful. For someone particularly impacted by alcoholism, or violence, it could be. Personally, I’ve never thought twice about the drunk in DJF, but I tend to avoid “killed” in that context. If I had been closely affected by alcoholism, I might feel differently.

        > So many things would have gone unnoticed and not bothered anyone at all until people who are looking for things to get upset about point it out and then it becomes something. The remarkable thing is that often it’s not even people who have the reason to be offended who are the ones screaming about the offence.

        Might be beating a dead horse, but to be totally clear what I “get upset about” is language that, in my estimation, could be harmful to others. It’s not because I have a delicate sensibility. I probably wouldn’t read this site if I did. I’ve never personally faced sexual violence, but I know people who have, and I have some sense of how it impacts people. I’m happy to take on the role of an ally and speak up when I can so that survivors don’t always have to be the ones speaking up in their own interests.

        • “Swastika” is a great example here. When I was in Thailand I was shocked to see the swastika on their buddha’s, then learned for thousands of years it was a symbol for peace. Stupid nazis.

          “I’m happy to take on the role of an ally and speak up when I can so that survivors don’t always have to be the ones speaking up in their own interests.”
          Good point.

          I guess I have to acknowlege that words can evolve. So if rape’s sole definition today is that of sexual assault, then I guess it was an inappropriate comment. I didn’t see it that way but get what you’re saying.

          • Saying that language is contextual is exactly why I didn’t think what Lou said was inappropriate. It was clear he wasn’t talking about sexual assult. He said it to describe AA stealing their players or as he phrased it “took a lot of their players”.
            A definition of rape is pillaging, so that’s how I read it..
            For those with a more limited definition of rape, then I suppose it came across as an insensitive remark .

            • I’ve appreciated this discussion, thanks. I think the importance of context, and individual perception is also why there will rarely be complete agreement about acceptable, or unacceptable language. There’s a lot of grey area, and lots of space where it’s important for people that think something is unacceptable would do well to be patient, and explain themselves well, and likewise for people that think something should be acceptable, or feel like they’re chastised unfairly to be open to hearing why someone doesn’t like what they said…. neither of which are easy. So, yeah. Kudos to us for a polite discussion about language politics on a crass, irreverent (though undeniably excellent) baseball blog.

              • Yeah, appreciate it too. I know you don’t always like what I post because i tend to mirror the poster, but I much prefer these types of discussions.
                It’s great when people have an open mind and are willing to listen and make coherent points. We didn’t even resort to dismissive brush offs, tirades, insults, or manipulating reality to support our own perspective.
                It’s like this was a real life talk instead of hiding behind a computer and annonymously spewing crap.
                Refreshing! thanks!

  66. Wow. Just wow.

    OK. I get your point that rape is a word that should not be used flippantly. And I totally agree. However–and I challenged you on this over your Greg Zaun=Sexist Bastard rant–what is much more offensive to me as a woman is the usage of words like ‘pussy’ or ‘girl’ or whatever to put another male poster down. The suggestion there is that men are strong and worthwhile and women are weak and not worthwhile. I have never complained about the occasional sexism on this board because I have better things to do and honestly I can fight my own battles. But you have never tried to stop it. So I’m a bit confused why you have chosen this to make a stand. You want to create a climate where women do not feel threatened? Then police the language used on this board. If you don’t want to do that, then maybe leave Lou and his unfortunate choice of words alone.

    • Was waiting for your take on this Isabellareyes.
      Thanks.

    • Seriously, where do you get the sense that this is a “stand”? And I don’t know what you think you remember from the Zaun thing, but here’s the link to the post (http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/12/19/greggs-zaun-about-women-again) now tell me where I went on what you call a “Greg Zaun=Sexist Bastard rant.”

      Like, for fucking serious.

      Regardless, beyond the fact that policing every comment here until this was some MDMA-addled vision of the Bluebird Banter comments under the Hayes Code would be an insufferable full time job in and of itself, I get real uncomfortable when it comes to censoring stuff, believe it or not (less so banning complete fucking idiots, mind you). I try to do it as little as possible– though there are occasions where I happen to spot something (because I certainly don’t read every comment on every post) that’s just too much for me to bear. Some of the “jokes” on this one might have fit that category if they weren’t part of a deluge it would have been futile to stop (or at least very annoying and not particularly useful).

      Maybe all that sounds weird if you missed that I haven’t once said Piniella CAN NOT say what he said or that he’s a bad guy (and, incidentally, I also never figured Yunel Escobar was a bad guy). I just think what he said was inappropriate and worthy of discussion, in part because– and this seems to be a correct instinct on my part– there are so many people who evidently don’t understand what’s wrong with it. But I also think the context of Piniella’s comment matters and makes it different from the little cesspool we’ve got going on over here. Disagree if you want (though I’m still not about to assume the role of comment moderator, nor do I even like the thought of one), but being on a Yankee-Red Sox broadcast goes a lot farther towards legitimizing, in whatever small way even it might, the flippant attitude toward rape than whatever comment from some assclown on a baseball blog he or she mistakenly believes is a message board.

      I’m not trying to change the world one inappropriate rape comment at the time here– not like I could, obviously. But it’s exactly what I said in the Zaun post: “I get that surely there are a not insignificant number of bros who probably think this kind of stuff is terrific and hilarious “real talk” from the frat demographic’s favourite broadcaster, and that maybe around here we long ago lost the credibility to call bullshit on it, but language politics aside– unfortunate locker room, between dudes reality of that kind of talk aside– I think we all can at least agree that tweeting such a thing shows some seriously piss poor judgement.”

      There’s a reason that the judgement is poor– because the flippant comparison is not cool, though obviously some don’t see it that way, and that’s why we’re having this discussion. These little cesspool of comments, though, in my mind verges more toward that “unfortunate, locker room, between-dudes reality,” so I’d rather it be unvarnished. It’s completely fair to disagree, but that’s how I see it. And I don’t know if we’d be able to get kinds of quality out of the discussions here– which I think does exist, and which I think are important– if it were any other way. Not that I’m going to try to find out, because, again, it’d also be one serious pain in the ass.

      • Here’s the thing. Women have to listen to this kind of shit all the time. Just check out all the hilarious ‘Nurse Karen’ cracks here. I don’t know Karen and I don’t know how she feels about that stuff but I do know that when apparently male doctors have occasionally commented no one has subjected them to the same kind of ‘I have a little pain right here, nurse’ posts. We go through our lives being ogled, groped, put down, paid less. We are judged on our looks, our age, the way we dress in a way that no man ever is. And we deal with it. Women have been told they have no place in the locker room ever since there have been locker rooms, yet here we are. I’m not really asking you to police the board. What I am trying to point out is that yelling at Zaun for being a sexist jerk and hauling Piniella over the coals for using the word ‘rape’ frivolously while ignoring stuff that goes on here on your own board makes little sense to me.

        Can we now get back to baseball?

        • I think we can safely hold Zaun and Pinella to a higher standard than anonymous mouth breathers on the internet, no?

        • For fuck sakes, did you even read the comment you’re responding to???

          Yelling at Zaun? Raking Piniella over the coals? I specifically addressed this misinterpretation, but no no, go on ahead and pretend that didn’t happen so you don’t have to change your point.

          • I just checked the Zaun piece. You went after him for a dumb tweet. Yeah you didn’t do it all in caps but you did it. The piece above is the same. You devoted a post to the use of the word ‘rape’. OK, you didn’t starting cussing at him but you chided him nevertheless. Look I get you’re coming from a good place. You’re right that neither of these idiots probably ever really thought about the effect their words would have on a fairly large portion of humanity and the things they said are dumb and disgusting. It’s just that if this stuff is gonna change, it has to change at the locker-room level or the sports chat-board level because that’s where it comes from. And in the broad scheme of things, saying nasty stuff on a tweet or using the word ‘rape’ in an inappropriate context are such small potatoes in a world where a female (God I cannot believe it!!) reporter suggests how sad it is to sit in a courtroom and watch as an athlete has his career ruined by making one tiny mistake and raping an underaged girl. That? Is outrageous. This? Is the kind of thing that, if you were a woman, you would hear every goddamn’ day.

            • Exactly! Well said! I watched that same CNN interview and my mouth was agape the whole time. This was three days ago I think now and I still can’t understand the thought process behind that report. It was and still is, truly mindboggling.
              Now if we want to talk about the seriousness of rape we have to talk about how our justice system and society treat the actual ACT of rape (not the WORD rape) and in this circumstance, if I was a young girl that had been raped and seen this CNN interview it would make me much less likely to come forward. This is why this so called CNN report is very important and this stupid Pinella thing seem so insignificant.

  67. Gonzo-Pre Game-Game Threat from Port Charlotte:

    I have arrived F-L-EH. My stellar scouting skills are being honed by a case Yeungling while also working on my Rays, asinine, heckling endeavours. “Hey Maddon. Nice goggles , very hipster looking of you. Do they even have lens?”

    I will have a post game wrap during the early evening consisting of drunken scrawl and an in depth analysis of just what it is like to drink 40s of Pabst duct taped to my fists. Smash, smash, SAHMASH!!!!!

    KGBS out.

    • Looking forwrd to some actual baseball talk.

    • Ahh, delicious Yuengling.

      Or… wait, did I say delicious? I mean cheap. Deliciously, deliciously cheap.

      • Yeungling, gets her done. But then I woke up in a ditch one time…….

        Instagram pics to come along with award winning dronzo(drunk-gonzo) journalism.

        I will hopefully do the all Drunk Jays Fans proud, and get tossed by the third inning.

        My key watchings will be:

        - Will Lawrie have Zincofax applied to his ass by Derosa on the infield grass?

        - How sober will Reyes, Eddie, and Sierra be for a 1:30 start? I sure as hell wouldnt be.

        - How feaky really is Colby? Or is he just eccentric and kind of the Napolean Dynamite of MLB?

        - Does Gibby really speak a rare dialect of a Texan language called Gibbinese?

        - Does Longoria want to gain the heavyweight champ title from ARod for narciscism? Dont worry, I’ll ask him.

        -And i’ts not will, but when, will I get punched in the face?

  68. Although the clip doesn’t paint Lou in a particularly positive light, in terms of political correctness, the word “rape” does not exclusively have a sexual implication…
    In other words, “the raping of a team” could mean that all of their assets were taken by force or in a destructive fashion, rather than implying anything of a violently sexual nature…
    So, there’s that.

  69. Stoeten
    When you posted that time using the photo of the Alcoholics annonymous chip, some people were offended.
    I made a post about it and you said something like “you’ve got a stick up your ass”.

    Now you’re telling us that we should find it inappropriate that Lou used a word in proper context for which it’s legally defined. Those that don’t see this as inappropriate you say they “just don’t get it”.
    Come on man. You would hate this attitude of someone telling you what you should find offensive or not.

    • I’ve seen from your continued and hopelessly wrong comments throughout this thread, that you’re just not reading anything I’m replying to anyone– nor were you when you were fucking moronically arguing back at me about what was in my head when I posted that alcoholic chip picture or all the other pictures you decided I post out of “mockery”– so as much as I’d like to go point by point through this to explain to you how you don’t get it, I don’t think I should have to. It’s all here in the thread, just please take a fucking few minutes to go back and read what I’ve been saying so you can stop misrepresenting my positions. It’s not fucking rocket science, but yes, I know it’s going to be difficult, once you actually bother to comprehend it, for you to pull back from your single-minded pursuit of being a little fucking pisspants at everything I do, and giving the ol’ +1 to whatever comment disagrees with me (no matter how little it has to do with what’s being discussed or how brutally my positions are being represented). Oh, and your insistence that we must go back to talking baseball, because this all makes you uncomfortable. Seeing your difficulties with reading comprehension and thinking past your own tunnel vision, I understand why that’s the case, but it ain’t happening, so you can kindly stop the calls for it, thanks.

      • The fuck?

        I’m usually on your side. If I did +1 on everything I liked about what you write it would be all over most threads (not this one). Sorry if I don’t show you the love but for a while there I thought I was being an annoying suck up.

        Wasn’t trying to get in your head about the Alcoholics annon picture. Believe me, I realized long ago I can’t possibly figure out what’s in your head with all the contradictions and hypocricy. Sometimes I do think you do it to get reactions but that’s fine.
        I said posting an AA picture on a site called drunk jays fan can be “perceived by readers” as mocking.
        I do the +1 on things for which I agree, not on any comment against you. Had to scroll up and only found one +1 instance.
        I agree with the fact that it’s bizarre to call out a 70 year old man using inappropriate terminalogy while allowing fucking rape jokes and sexists comments on a site you control. I’m aware you don’t share those views so I’m not suggesting you’re promoting it, but by doing nothing about it, it SEEMS as though you’re passively condoning it.
        I’m not saying you should do anything about it either. I’m just agreeing with the hypocracy.

        I want to avoid this topic not because it makes me uncomfortable. I come to a baseball blog and I want to talk about baseball because I want to talk about baseball.

        I actually think most of the anti-Stoeten rants are dicks and I see you’re dealing with some right now so I think that’s more who you’re pissy about…

        Might not agree with all your views but you do good work.

      • Fuck, I so badly want to drop this but for the first time in 5 years you actually hit a nerve.
        Maybe you’re pissed that I agreed with Tom that your blog isn’t as fun as it was a few years ago because you’re becoming more mainstream.
        er, sorry. “evolving”.

        You used to blog hilarious shit about fucking strippers and having porno sex in New York. Some of what you wrote was the most inappropriately hilarious shit.
        Your stories were funnier and crazier than Tucker Max, KyleZ’s and the Smasher.

        Now you’re making a fuss about a 70 year old man for using an inappropriate word.

        We all worried you would turn when you joined The Score.
        You might not be self-aware enough to recognize it, but your long-time readers can see it.
        You’re not being true to yourself. When this blog started you wrote whatever the fuck you wanted, and damn the consequences.
        Now you write with more of a conscience based on how it will be received. Maybe this is why you don’t seem to recognize the hypocricy in what you write.
        “get out of my head” is what you like to say. I don’t see it in your head. I see it in your writing.
        Whatever man. You’re enjoying some success, so do what you need to do.

        Anyone who’s followed you for more than two years can see it.

  70. I am dumber for reading the comments written by the ignorant. Thank you.

  71. Interesting- we can add more information about what the Jays look for in pitchers. Tinnish dropped they look at arm action, delivery and athleticism and that Sanchez was a perfect example. I’m going to have to go over some of Sanchez’ video carefully now.

  72. LOU PINELLA BAD!!! SENSITIVE MEN GOOD! RENT DOWN TOWN! VOTE NDP!

    • How is it so unfathomable to you that the use of the word rape in this context minimizes the severity of the act? Why don’t you turn your screen off for 10 minutes and think about how ugly of a fucking thing it is.

      • THINKING, BAD! WORDS DON’T HURT PEOPLE, THEY JUST WORDS. GO LEAFS GO. DERP DERP.

  73. There have been some good points made by those who want to find this inappropriate and those who don’t.
    Hopefully nobody here believes rape is a good thing or should ever be trivialized.
    Lou was not making light of sexual assult or even making a flippant comparison.

    Here is the etymology of the word:
    rape (v.) late 14 century: “seize prey; abduct, take by force,” from Anglo-French raper (Old French rapir) “to seize, abduct,” a legal term, probably from pp. of Latin rapere “seize, carry off by force, abduct”

    So for about 600 years what Lou said is acceptable. He even clarified what he meant was the Jays took a lot of talent. As recently as 15 years ago my high school textbooks used the word rape to describe how the Vikings took towns.

    Just because you perceive the word to be only about sexual assault does not mean Lou used it in a wrong context.

    If anything, those who should be most upset about this argument are English professors.

  74. Andrew,

    Keep your topics to baseball!

    • Bluejayfan,

      Skip the posts you don’t want to read.

      • What is your point IMW?

        • My point is that it’s pointless for you to tell Stoeten what to write about… because it’s his blog and he can write about what he wants… and even if that wasn’t enough, the opinion of one person, namely you, that this particular piece wasn’t worthy pretty much means dick all.

          When i see a post on DJF or GB that doesn’t interest me… I skip it.

          • +1 to this too.

            I would prefer it if he stuck to baseball just like I would prefer not getting cooking tips from Keith Law blog. But it’s his blog and he can choose what to discuss.

            For the most part, he doesn’t stray that often.

    • Isn’t dumb shit that baseball people say fair game and on-topic? Worthy of discussion, even if you don’t find it offensive?

      • Yes everything is worthy of discussion but in the opinion of some this is not the right forum to discuss societal issues.
        This site is at it’s best when there’s good baseball debates mixed in with some good humour.
        It sucks when non-baseball issues divide DJF army between the “newly evolved Stoeten” (don’t say mainstream) camp and the “neanderthal Stoetens of 2 years ago”.

  75. Wow Stoeten,
    You have sunk to a new low. Using the word “rape” to get page hits? Disgusting.
    There are disgusting things written in this comments section every day and you don’t give a fuck about that. But you saw an opportunity to get on your high horse (actually, in your case probably a small donkey would suffice) and drum up some page views.
    You’re an idiot and you clearly have no morals at all.
    You have one less reader of this shitty blog which is getting shittier by the day.
    Go fuck yourself. I hope you get raped.

  76. Cmaan now people, he clearly shouldn’t have said that.

  77. I apologize for this god-awful post. Don’t know how I let it slip through. I think Stoeten slipped me something.

    Obivously using the word Rape to troll for page hits is WAYYY worse than what Lou did.

    I apologize on behalf of The Score.

    And I too hope Stoeten gets raped.

  78. Oh shut your fucking mouth, you fat hipster fuck. You are such a piece of shit. Any chance to get overly offended by something, and this dickhead is THERE. You are part of the shrill offenderati that adults are tuning out. Lou Pinella is 70 years old, HOW DARE HE not constantly consult the kiddie liberal dictionary of what terms are and are not considered OMG offensive at that partictular hour. I bet he congratulated one of his guys for getting an RBI (shudder) in spring training (doesn’t he know all spring training is meaningless??) I bet he doesn’t even use the Internet!

    Fuck off, Stoeten.

  79. Thank you all. After reading this thread, I now hate everything.

  80. I wonder if there would’ve been such outrage had he used the word “murder” in place of rape?

    My guess is not.

  81. Despite AA “raping” the Marlins for all their good players not named Stanton, the Jays are still going to finish last according to some “experts”.

    So without the “rape”, the Jays would win 40 games?

    • If you mean Callis he’s clearly trolling. Or just making contrarian remarks because if you say the opposite of what everyone else says long enough, the one out a million times you’re right you look like a genius.

      Here is my guess:
      1. Tampa. (sorry)
      2. Toronto (wild card)
      3. Orioles.
      4. Red Sox (sorry, I want them last but they’re not that bad).
      5 Yankees.

    • No, there were other plans in place.Beeston,Rogers and AA were going to improve the club regardless.The Jays were the only team in baseball that had the money and openings to make a trade of this magnitude with the Marlins.
      The Jays were poised to make big moves in the off season,for many many different reasons.All the signs were there.

  82. Holy Fuck! I take full credit for calling you mainstream in your previous blog deal. You are welcome and it’s good to see your shit is flowing again. By the way, name calling is cool when used sarcasticly or when you have discovered a new liquor but in the real world it could be a fucking disaster.

    Hint: We the assholes and idiots that you refer to can get drunk and be assholes and idiots but the blogger should refrain.

    Hint: Don’t go on Twitter and run down the idiots that comment here because….fuck it’s wrong.

  83. Big deal…he said rape. Get over it.

  84. I don’t know which I hate worse: the PC holier-than-thou tone, or your disgusting “Yeah…no, Lou, just no” syntax.

    • The best things about the comments devolving into a clusterfuck like this is that it at least gives me the chance to see the difference between the people actually interested in having a discussion and the straight-up troll morons. Getting rid of this shitstain? Now that’s censorship I can get behind!

      • the fact that you block people for comments like that shows what an insecure little pussy you are.

  85. [...] Stoeten at Drunk Jays Fans has a short bit on Lou Pinella being a bit behind the [...]

  86. Wow. I mean, it’s not surprising that the majority of comments are ridiculous and completely miss Stoeten’s point. It’s like a Yahoo news story.

    Just my opinion, but the following do nothing to advance the discussion:

    1) Most any comment that includes ‘PC Police’ as the main point
    2) Pretending Stoeten is acting like the ‘PC Police’
    3) Implying that hate speech should be defended because everyone has ‘freedom of speech’.

    But at least a few of the comments included some critical thought.

  87. Wow,

    I thought this was a baseball blog. Maybe until the season starts some of you guys should no find another blog to complain on. Until then I’ll try Getting Blanked…hopefuly there are more baseball fans over there.

    Keep bitching, everyone…

  88. I’m done with this blog… I can take bush league reporting but this takes it to a new level that I just can’t tolerate… Stoeten previously said “Maybe spare the other 29 GMs your giant rape stick, huh?”… “Giant rape stick” Quite clearly meant with sexual overtones using the word rape in an inappropriate manner…. While Sweet Lou was using the word as it is intended by the dictionary.

    Typical Hipster unawareness at its finest folks.

    • Thank fuck. I love it when people announce they’re “leaving” a blog. Later, have a good one! Please try to keep your word!

  89. HOLY FUCK, HOW THIS IS STILL A THING??!!

  90. Together with almost everything which seems to be developing within this subject material, a significant percentage of points of view are very radical. Even so, I am sorry, but I can not give credence to your entire idea, all be it refreshing none the less. It looks to everybody that your remarks are actually not entirely validated and in actuality you are generally yourself not really entirely certain of the assertion. In any event I did take pleasure in reading it.

  91. Good post. I am going through some of these issues as well..

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