Baseball’s a hell of a thing, eh? That was one fucking crazy weekend, and not in the way that I think anybody would have wagered back on Friday afternoon, as our venom for John Farrell really started pulsating. A J.A. Happ shutout, an R.A. Dickey blowout, and a whole lot of words written about what was going on in the stands later and the Jays sit at 2-4– a record barely worth panicking over for an NFL team, let alone a team that plays a 162 game season. Though, as you’ll see through this little exercise, there’s no goddamn reasoning with some people when it comes to that stuff.

I was at Friday’s game, and I can report that the atmosphere was terrific. Much better than the home opener, even. The Jays were behind for much of the night, but the crowd was nowhere near as flat as they were on Tuesday, when J.P. Arencibia’s passed balls combined with a rally-killing double play to take the wind out of their sails. Things were raucous, fans were excitable, and mostly civil, too. At least, from the small portion (or portions, as it were) of the crowd where I sat– which was a few sections over from most of the paper airplane activity that was so derided and shamed. Personally, I’ll take a paper airplane hitting me in the back of the head over some jackass standing up to do the wave in front of me at a crucial moment any day of the week and twice on Sundays, but shit, I don’t mind kids playing on my lawn, either.

I also didn’t mind John Farrell getting booed when he came out to check on Jose Iglesias after the Sox shortstop took a Josh Johnson pitch off the arm, quite frankly. It’s not like anyone was booing the injured player, or confused about who scorn was being heaped down on, so… so what? (When they did it to the pitching coach by mistake, on the other hand– OK, that was kinda lame). Farrell was the one who put his players in that position anyway, and who egged on the crowd with his awesomely facetious hat tip as he returned to the vistors’ dugout after exchanging lineup cards– a pure shitheel turn that almost had me respecting him, until I realized that such a display of an actual human quality like having a sense of humour would never have happened while he was here, occupied as he was with his poor little feeble-brained pangs of sadness for not being king of the Masshole fuckfaces.

As for the crowd on Sunday… I wasn’t there, but like any gathering of 40,000 people there really aren’t any easy generalizations to be made, tempting as they might be. The simplest thing to say is that there are plenty of fans who I’d say get it, plenty who don’t, and plenty who evidently have no fucking interest in getting it. But, to me, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to construct a one-size-fits-all strawman and bash the living piss out of it, as though the “Jays fans” are some kind of singular, and usually moronic, thing. So… let’s use the astonishing words that somehow came out of the mouths of specific individuals to do all that! It’s– after the longest preamble in DJF history– Anatomy Of A JaysTalk!!!

You can hear the full audio of the show by way of Wilner’s column at

Caller One: Frank in Halifax
Frank wants to start off on a good foot, calling fans irrational, suggesting that a six game season might warrant this kind of panic, but otherwise appeals for calm. He then asks about what we’ve seen so far out of Brett Cecil.

Why I want desperately for this to be a harbinger of calls to come: Because Frank is damn reasonable, and brushes aside the insane panic, then asks about something actually interesting. I was going to say it was nice that he brought up something positive, too, but even I can admit that’s a bit rich. Nobody wants to hear a post-game show full exclusively of creamy blowjobs, especially after the steaming turd the Jays had just laid on the field, but yeah… some damn perspective sure is nice to start with.

Caller Two: John in Toronto
John doesn’t think the Jays are going to be very good this year, because he checked out Dickey today and he he had nothing. He thinks that 80% of the Jays’ rotation are National League pitchers, and this is his “big concern.”

Why this is very possibly actually the closest to making sense someone moronically panicking is going to say: Unlike some of the braying dolts who will show up later in the show, John at least accurately notes that four of the five guys in the Jays’ rotation pitched some innings in the National League last year. Thing is, y’know, so what if J.A. Happ pitched 40 innings in the AL and was fine, or that Dickey’s first year in the NL came when he was 35, or that 2482 of Mark Buehrle’s 2684 career innings have been in the AL. It’s too late! They’ve been tainted! They’re NL PITCHERS! Scawwwwwwy!!!!

Caller Three: Dan in Waterloo
Dan is surprised and disappointed by Melky Cabrera’s defence, for some reason, but pulls it out of the fire by saying he’s embarrassed to be associated by some of the people at the stadium and calling into the show.

Why this is going to lead to some great points from Wilner: I think booing a player on your own team for trying his best yet not quite being able to do something that’s impossibly fucking difficult is about the second dumbest thing a person can do, after justifying booing a player on his or her own team for trying his best yet not being able to do something that’s impossibly fucking difficult. That said, some of Sunday’s tsk-tsking maybe went a bit far, though I thought Wilner was bang on when he said that many of the people– and I use the term loosely– booing the shit out of R.A. Dickey today will probably end up loving him two months from now (thanks, presumably, to their incredible ability to indulge their own knee-jerk reactions), and also when he suggested that today’s display probably didn’t give John Farrell any pangs of regret that he’d made the wrong move by leaving town.

Caller Four: Ken in Toronto
Ken is aghast that the Jays had 42,000 people out, and couldn’t even get a run! They showed no emotion! Dickey should have been taken out in the second inning! He was giving up a run every inning! There wasn’t anybody even standing up in the bullpen! He doesn’t want to shit on Gibbons, but– this team isn’t hitting! You’re not going to win this thing with just home runs, it’s about averages! Encarnacion isn’t hitting .100! THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE TEAM! YOU CAN SEE IT! Gibbons didn’t make some changes to spark the offence in the fifth inning! Hands down Rasmus should have been in there! Do SOMETHING!

Why this herp derp herpy derpy fucking erpy slurpie goddamn fucking derp-herp: Yeah, they FUCKING CHOSE NOT TO SCORE A RUN. And Gibbons should have killed his bullpen even though Dickey basically settled down, giving up just three runs in 4.2 innings with not his best stuff following the little BP session he tossed to open the first. And… basically whatever happened today was WRONG and it was UNACCEPTABLE because… who the fuck knows??? This guy sure as shit doesn’t.

Caller Five: Antonio in Ottawa
Antonio wants to put things in perspective, noting Cole Hamels, David Price, and the other number ones who had bad days today as well. He also think fans want instant results, and doesn’t like the US media and the way that they’ve been ripping on Jays fans, and points out Jon Heyman’s ridiculous tweet comparing the Jays to last year’s Marlins. He also wants people to stop shitting on J.P. Arencibia.

Why Antonio didn’t even go far enough with the first part, then lost it: The perspective is great– though Matt Cain and Justin Verlander also weren’t great, for the second time, in Verlander’s case, and the Nationals lost 15-0 on Friday. Regardless, shitting on Heyman’s horseshit is completely acceptable. But as much as it’s insufferably dumb to start panicking at this point in the season, it’s equally bad to go anointing J.P. Arencibia anything. It’s six games. And as for the Boston media, they’ve got an audience to speak to, so… whatever. I don’t have a problem with them for that, per se, though I can’t help but have been reminded by this weekend that Peter Abraham is kinda the fucking worst.

Caller Six: Joel in Toronto
Joel was embarrassed by the fan reaction throughout the game: the booing of Dickey, the paper airplanes, the pitch invasions. He’s been to other games in other ballparks and finds other places they aren’t so overly negative. Maybe they’re booing the moment but he just wants to tell everybody to be quiet when they’re like that. He can’t imagine being an athlete being booed when they’re trying their best.

Why Joel is mostly bang fucking on: Joel brings up the “booing the moment” thing, which I think is a real thing. Some fans are definitely booing the moment when they unnecessarily rain shit down on the first fucking guy who’d tell you that his performance wasn’t good enough. I don’t think the distinction matters a whole hell of a lot, though, and I still think there are a tonne of people who actually, bizarrely, feel aggrieved, as though a ballplayer could have made a positive result happen and just didn’t. I can’t speak much to behaviour in other places, but it’s true that, for whatever reason, fans here are insanely fucking negative, often to the point of absurdity. And I say that as someone who pretty much shits on everything, but seriously, booing a pickoff move your team routinely pulls without you batting an eyelash? Booing Nick Swisher because you recognize his name or don’ like the look of his face? Booing your own team because they have a bad day, but the next time they play well, hey! Just kidding!

Nobody is asking anybody not to be upset or dismayed by Sunday’s shellacking, it’s just… there are ways to express those sentiments that don’t involve being assholes or showing yourself to be failing so fucking miserably at life as to have nothing resembling the vaguest fucking clue about how the game you just paid good money to see actually works. Like… seriously, what the fuck is that?

I understand that obviously it’s every paying customer’s right to act as cheap and boorish as they want– I sure as fuck have done it myself, too– I guess I just also think that it’s my right to point out what their behaviour says about them when viewed by someone not so blinded by booze and emotion as to be able to think on a level higher than that of a four year old who wants its toy. It’s fucked up.

Caller Seven: Malcolm in Gatineau
Malcolm imparts some much needed reason to the fanbase. Some days are diamonds and some days are stone, he says. You can get trounced one day and come back and trounce the other guy. The snow isn’t even off the ground, he says. Relax. Relax!

Why Malcolm is the absolute best: After being told by Wilner that his comments were very zen he quipped, “Is it zen? I didn’t think it was a zen, I thought it was baseball!”

Caller Eight: John in Toronto
John is concerned by two things: that the Jays didn’t play well in front of a big crowd, and that only J.A. Happ has had a decent outing among the Jays pitchers.

Why this is less infuriating that most, but off-baseJohn is calm and rational, but saying that only one of the Jays’ starters had pitched well so far– though he agreed with Wilner when it was pointed out that Brandon Morrow was good, too. I don’t think Dickey’s first start was particularly bad, either, and Josh Johnson’s six inning outing with just three earned, two walks and six strikeouts wasn’t atrocious, though the nine hits were obviously too much. It will be fine. Or it won’t. But it probably will, and there’s not a whole hell of a lot that can be done about it at this point if it isn’t, so…

Oh yeah, and crowd size. Not really a reason to expect a win– if it were only that easy…

Caller Nine: Mark in Caledonia
Mark wants to talk about R.A. Dickey– his whole body of work. He’s a .500 pitcher! His ERA is well over five for his career! Take away his Cy Young year and he’s a .500 pitcher! You’re putting him on a pedestal! “8-13 is outstanding?” he scoffs. “You have low expectations, my friend!”

“And he will miss Citi Field when he pitches at the Rogers Centre and the balls are going over well over his head,” he smugly ends on.

Why this hurts my fucking brain: Dickey had a better FIP, xFIP, walk rate, and strikeout rate on the road last year, and his ERA was lower at home by only 0.3. The same was true about the peripherals in 2010– except for the walk rate, though the ERAs were farther apart– and in 2011 he had a better ERA on the road (though those same peripherals weren’t quite as good). No matter how you slice those odd numbers, it seems plain that he was certainly not a creation of Citi Field. And he won the damn Cy Young in the year they moved the fences in! He also does not have an ERA above five for his career– it sat at 3.99 heading into yesterday. Of course, this guy has no idea what the fuck any of that means. 8-13 that one year, though!

Caller Ten: Marcus in Oakville
Marcus thinks that the risk you take when you buy a ticket is that you’re going to see a loss, and thinks that fans expectations– especially in the wake of the off-season– are out of whack. He reiterates the point about not booing your own team.

Caller Eleven: Donald in Toronto
Donald says his expectations are no longer high on R.A. Dickey– y’know, because of two fucking games– but he hopes he figures it out.

Caller Twelve: Aaron in Toronto
Aaron wants to know how the dome effects the knuckleball. [Hint: it's thought to help it.]

Caller Thirteen: Jed in Fort MacMurray
Jed points out that Justin Verlander got beat up, and David Price, and Cole Hamels, telling people to relax, calling this all a mountain out of a molehill, bashing Twitter ridiculousness, and basically telling Wilner that he’s doing the Lord’s work.

Caller Fourteen: Thomas in Toronto
Thomas is a Rogers customer– he subscribes to multiple services. And if any one of those services craps out on him, he’s immediately going to call and be a shit in the cut of some poor call centre employee the fucking second the disruption hits! He expects to get service the way it’s advertised! He subscribes to two “services” from the Blue Jays– offence and defence. And when he doesn’t get those two services from the Jays, he has a right to boo or to call in to express his displeasure that tiny synapses in his pea brain keep on firing with the expectation of INSTANT GRATIFICATION, mostly because he clearly doesn’t comprehend the sport that he gives this much of a shit about. It’s about accountability and it’s his right! If he doesn’t get the service that he’s paying for, he deserves to not be told to calm down! He’s paying for a service, either to see his team score runs or to see a pitcher pitch a good game! Thomas expects to be entertained, and WAS THIS ENTERTAINING? WAS THIS ENTERTAINING?

Why this kinda makes me weep for humanity: All the parenting books and websites and classes in the world can’t stop people from popping out more and more little person-shaped balls of hopelessly delusional entitlement, can they? Shame on all of us, really.

Comments (127)

  1. Well on a positive note, I’m glad we lost so badly. Better than wasting 2 more of JPA’s 24 home runs on a game we’re losing anyway. Better than having Lawrie or Bautista play injured only to lose 13-3. Better than going 16 innings and using every bullpen arm only to get the same “L” anyway.

    It’s just one loss.

    • I’ve long thought that. It seems to make me different to most people but I’d rather get blown out in a loss than lose a close one that we could have or should have won. Those are the ones that stay on my mind and fester.

      If you’re gonna get shut out, better that it didn’t waste a good pitching peformance and lose 1-0 or 2-1 or something. Or if you’re going to give up 13 runs, at least it wasn’t a game where you score 11 and think that you should have won with that much offense.

    • Exactly my thought. Despite the score and how painful it was to watch, it still only counts as one loss.

      Also, stoeten is bang on with the entitlement stuff. Luckily reality is gonna eventually smack a lot of these idiots in their whiny uninformed little faces.

      • Plus, if you lose a few of those over the season, your Pythag gets all screwed up and then people get to write cool articles about it…

  2. Interesting article on encompassing Sportsnet vs TSN, the Jays vs the other Toronto sports teams, and the business vs baseball

    Would love to hear your take on it

    • It’s what it is.
      The business aspect of the team will drive the success. That’s why when it comes to the deadline in July and the roster needs something, Rogers will have no hesitation to increase the budget.

  3. Everyone take a pill, it’s a long long season. Everything will work out. Takes awhile to get use to the dome for hitters and pitchers after playing the winter in Fla. as for rowdy crowds, what do you expect with the continual dumbing down of the masses ? MMA anyone ?

    • Boxing has existed for a real long time, and fighting since basically forever. There are MMA fans who merely tolerate the meat head frame its presented in while still enjoying the sport.

  4. I don’t know which was more lame, some of the fans reactions or the media’s reaction to the fans. Media probably.

  5. I went to the Friday night game (which by the way was probably the most fun/entertaining game I’ve been to). In my section (130), a total douchebag, on multiple occasions stood up and yelled at Melky Cabrera “You’re a f@ggot”.

    Just shook my head and couldn’t believe my ears.

    • Someone in my section on Friday yelled at Bonifacio: “Go back to Cuba”. Fortunately someone else was able to point out how little sense that made.

      He also managed to squeeze in calling Jeffress a f—ot and Victorino a pussy.


    • Holy Homophob!

    • Went to both the Friday and Sunday game. Sunday’s was the worse in terms of engaging baseball, obviously, but I also had the biggest idiot I have ever had around me at a game, right behind me at this one. This guy was straight out of the 500s, so I was shocked to have him 19 rows behind the dugout with the civilized folk. Anyway, this moron was saying “Fuck you” to everyone on the field (despite there being children directly beside him), said Melky should start juicing again – but via pills this time so he doesn’t get caught (’cause that makes a shitload of sense) – and said that EE can’t hit this year because he’s so fat and only eats McDonald’s (wha?). This was just the beginning, I assure you. Oh yea, he also said to his buddies (who really didn’t seem that bad, strangely, and actually seemed to dislike him) that if they were “going to pick a fight today, we should do it with the Red Sox fans behind us”. Ugh

      My girlfriend and I had to move away from this shit-stain because I was becoming irritable and would’ve turned into one of those neanderthals who end up fighting at the game, so we moved one aisle over. Later on, I noticed this piece of human waste weaving his way through the aisles on his way towards the field. Then, you guessed it, shit-stain wasn’t content with ruining everyone’s afternoon, he had to also ruin his by jumping on the field – after assaulting a Rogers employee so he could get over – then running towards Will Middlebrooks – who he’d been heckling all game for “fucking up his fantasy team last year”, only to be tackled by another heroic Rogers employee and then accosted by the police, whom he resisted.

      No, this was not the hilarious first runner who slid into 2nd base and was in my opinion the only bright spot of a pretty miserable day, this was the 2nd runner who I believe was actually going to try and injure Middlebrooks because he, you guessed it, fucked up his fantasy team last year.

      So … no doubt this waste of oxygen spent the night in jail and will have several court dates in the future. He was not content with just ruining the days of those unfortunate enough to sit within earshot of him, he also had to injure at least one employee, and ultimately will cost himself a criminal record. Don’t drink the booze if you can’t handle it, you goddamn loser!!

      ‘Nuff said …

  6. So, basically, what you’re saying is that R.A. Dickey is the new Ricky Romero, but with better quotes?

  7. Unreal article mate, final block is pure gold.
    Just wanted your opinion with regards to Zaun’s comments on the absence of the Windows restaurant. Do you think its really making the ball fly out better?

    • I don’t really think anyone thinks that the ball travels 400′ to where the windows used to be and then magically jumps up another 50′ to the third deck because of some amazing anti-gravity wizardry caused by an absence of windows. For example, when I roll the windows down in my car, it doesn’t turn into an airplane.

      I’m guessing (and hoping, otherwise Zaun is 100% insane) that he simply means the absence of the windows has psychologically made that area seem more attainable, approachable, etc. If it “feels” closer, you relax, don’t tense up, and get a nice full swing on the ball.

      • As I was remarking to my faithful lab assistant, Beaker – when I heard Zaun making that correlation about homers vis-a-vis the erst-while Windows Restaurant – I could have sworn he was smiling at the time.
        So instead of thinking he was, as we in the upper section of the Mensa Club say, a dumbass fuckwit – I prefer to think he was saying it for shits and giggles.

        Now I have to get Beaker, who’s gotten his tongue stuck on the liquid nitrogen tanks again.

    • Since when does Zaun have a degree in physics or is a specialist in aerodynamics? I’m not claiming I know any better then he about how removing the windows from “windows” would cause balls to travel further and thus more home runs, but to me this idea sounds absolutely ridiculous. Much like the rest of the garbage that comes out of Zaun’s mouth…

    • It was one of the greatest quotes by a sports analyst in quite some time. Just pure, unadulterated bullshit. The kind that really makes you question if he’s not just a genius in disguise trolling us…

    • @ Mcleod

      People automatically slam Zaun without trying analyze the statement.
      I have yet to see any commenter definitively explain why Zaun is wrong.I need a person with an aerodynamic degree or the like, to give their opinion.
      But from what we do know.
      Opening day, a ball hit to right,JB is looking to play the ball and it goes over the fence.Both the reaction of JB AND Dickey was WTF how did that go out?
      Some of the longest bombs have been hit in the last six games.With regularity.
      Early season pitching can explain some of the volume of dingers but does it explain all of them?
      The metrodome was accused of using the fans, used to circulate the air, to the advantage of the Twins.
      The air flow in the dome HAS probably changed due to the removal of the windows in the outfield.
      Zaun’s statement might be plausible.

      • Just checking out ESPN home run tracker – 6 of 10 longest home runs of the year at RC, including 5 of top 6.

        Colby’s at 468′ is the longest and would have been 10th longest last year. Edwin hit a 488′ bomb there last year.

        Probably means nothing…

      • @RADAR

        you want an explanation from someone with an aerodynamic degree but in the meantime you’ll take dickey’s in-game reaction as evidence that something is amiss?

        • Don’t be an ass Braino.
          Until somebody produces an educated explanation then the reaction of people familiar with the batted ball will have to do.One trumps the other.
          Rarely do you see that reaction of surprise.
          You see pissed off, disappointment but they were both shocked. This from guys who are used to judging the trajectory of the ball.

          • I’m pretty sure anyone who’s taken grade 6 science should be able to understand how Zaun’s comment is absolutely crazy without having to consult an expert.

            Correlation does not mean causation. You could just as easily make all of these claims:
            -greater amounts of baseball players from the Dominican Republic in the Rogers Centre cause baseballs to travel further
            -increased fan attendance does something magical to the air, causing balls to carry further
            -Jeffrey Loria is really an evil voodoo genius, and his magical powers are causing balls to travel further in the Rogers Centre
            -balls have carried more at the Rogers Centre ever since the inauguration of Pope Francis, therefore Pope Francis causes longer home runs than Pope Benedict

            • And Buffalo Tim wins it

            • I went a little farther than grade six so maybe I should dumb it down for you.
              Perhaps if you had a logical argument instead of creating idiotic comparisons you’d be able to understand. Try first with “could the changes in the dome have any possible effect on the flight of the ball?”
              Try to follow now. Focus on the ball. Stay on topic.
              When you remove 3 stories of glass wall, hundreds of feet wide and create a huge hole for air to flow through, can it affect the flight of the ball?
              I dunno, but it may be plausible.

          • Dickey’s first home run in the dome…how can he judge? In all his talk about how the dome would make his knuckler knuckle maybe he forgot about the exaggerated park factors at the dome (especially when closed). Jose’s reaction was probably based on the sound it made off the bat followed by it carrying out of the park unexpectedly.

            I’d subscribe to a juiced ball conspiracy before the windows restaurant jetstream effect.

            if the dome is closed all the airflow would be derived through the air exchange system. The windows renovation probably altered <1% of the total area available to exchange air at a height of 'AlotHigherThanFieldLevel' and at a distance of 'ReallyFarFromThePlate'.

            The ability for this open air exchange to affect the ball during the anything but the last portion of its flight (if hit to centre field) probably is zero.

            Just because stadium was altered then some homeruns were hit doesn't mean the homeruns were a result of the alterations.

            • Ummm … a knuckler ‘knucks’, it doesn’t ‘knuckle’.

            • @ Braino

              You may be correct. There may be no dicernable effect on the flight of the ball.I’ll keep an open mind on both sides of the argument.Right now I don’t see any studies or expert evaluation on the subject.It’s just speculation from non experts, that includes Zaun, you and me

              • speculation, sure, but rationale and reasonable speculation, yes. no expert required.
                if you need an ‘expert’ to create a study that helps ease your mind, you’ll be waiting awhile.

      • Can we get Rogers to put retractable windows on the porch, and lower them when the opposition is batting?

    • As an Engineer, I will posit that it has zero effect. My thinking is as follows:

      1. The dome is closed. There is no wind inside to create pressure differences.
      2. The windows would have little effect on the initial trajectory of the ball. The distance is great.
      3. Greg Zaun is one of the thickest trees in the woods.

  8. I always find fans booing the home side cringe-worthy. Do they not understand that the team would also rather that they were winning? I don’t think any of the boo-ers would appreciate anyone coming to their place of business and booing when they are having a bad day at the office.

  9. Nails on your take of caller 14

  10. Great post. I was laughing listening to the callers. Poor Wilner. And what a lot of idiots we have as fans.

    Go Jays.

  11. +1

  12. Fire AA

  13. After a loss, there’s nothing like listening to Wilner converse with a bunch of panicky idiots (usually with a few competent people thrown into the mix).

    I had no issue with the booing or the “classiness/classlessness” of Jays’ fans, looking around the majors this week, I heard Giants fans boo and heckle Matt Holliday with some serious smack talk; I read a few Masshole blogs to read a bunch of commenters shit-talk Lackey after his injury (most saying they were glad he’s injured, yeesh); I heard Rangers fans boo Weaver when he was injured in last night’s game and read the reports that Hamilton’s family had to be escorted by security because Rangers fans are dick bags. Sports can bring out the worst in anyone.

  14. I was at the game, and though the booing was a bit much (and the sarcastic cheer in the first when Dickey got his first out), I was heartened by the fact that Dickey got way more cheers than boos when he was taken out of the game.

    They are basically one stupid Mark Reynolds swing away from being .500. Also, I still have winter tires on my car, so fuck.

  15. only thing that pissed me off about this weekend

    Wife is a Red Sox fan

    WTF was a I thinking

  16. I just want to say thank you for making the point of it being ridiculous to boo your own players! This has been something that has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time with Jays fans, and something that I find to be in very bad taste! I also think that people need to have a bit more perspective. While it is true that all wins and losses count the same whether they are in april or september, remember that a bad week like this in july/august wouldn’t seem nearly so bad if you are 10 games above .500. At this point in the season we are merely lacking context as to how the rest of the season is going to play out. So I say please everyone, calm down, take a breath and enjoy letting the season play out!

    • The ‘fans’ that boo their own players are likely the same ones that bitch and moan that free agants don’t want to come to Toronto. Duh.

      • I normally agree, but if it’s Adam Lind in question being booed, all bets are off.

      • Really though – and no one’s actually brought it up yet – but they do it (boo their own) in just about every city. It didnt used to be like this in Toronto. I don’t know where I read it but Maple Leaf Gardens used to be called “the library” around the NHL because the fans were so quiet and conservative.

    • What if we all OOB while they’re BOOing and then it will sound like BOOB!!!!

  17. Other than yesterdays loss, they could have easily won the other 3 they lost as well. A couple of more friendly bounces, or one less passed ball. So it’s not like they’re 2-4 with 4 blowouts.

    I also thought JJ pitched alright in his first start, encouraging at least. Of the 9 hits, I think there were only 2 that were hit hard, and the others were bloops or ground ball singles.

  18. I’ve often wondered about the Dome and the knuckleball myself. I know Wakefield said he liked pitching here with the roof closed, but his knuckler was quite a bit different than Dickey’s (though still a knuckler, so…).

    Dickey’s been real good for three years, so it’s not likely he’s suddenly lost the magic. The only concern I would have is if there is indeed something about the the (closed) Dome that makes his pitches easier to hit. If not I’d just write off yesterday as a fluke.

    • The knuckler worked so well opening day that it probably was what messed things up: it led to some walks and helped JPA miss a lot of catches.

      Yesterday was bad with the knuckler not moving. And he wasn’t even throwing the knuckler on a lot of the first inning hits.

      • Not that it mitigates the results, but the Jays have scored exactly 1 total run in Dickey’s 2 starts.

      • That might be a good point. Maybe he tried to dial back a bit since he was having trouble controlling it in the first game. I of course have no idea.

  19. I’ve already bought a lot more tickets to games this year than last year.

    And I already sort of regret it.

    I was at Friday’s game and thought the airplane shit was ridiculous. I have no idea why people cheer it on. Plus there were some kids throwing peanuts and gum over the 500 level down into the 200′s. I told them to fuck off but no one immediately around them did. Then there was a fight in my section as well as a few in the 100′s. Then yesterday, hearing Dickey get boo’ed. Add in a streaker (and none of these people actually streak, they don’t really have the balls for that) and people cheering that like it is somehow interesting in any slightest way. Plus the fucking wave.

    I actually look forward to skipping work and going on school day. I truly think it will be a more mature crowd.

  20. People need to check out that Heyman tweet again. Angelo – I don’t know if you’re on this board but that was a blunt and worthy response:

  21. Oh, I also have a rather humorous comment. I was at the game Friday, and got the ‘pleasure’ of listening to the woman behind me complain very loudly for five innings about how Josh Johnson had no place on a major league team because of the one performance she had seen (that night) which she deemed to be not up to her standards! Honestly, I wanted to turn around and say something, but where the heck do you even start?

  22. Imagine discussing FIP, xFIP, etc with Mark.

    But seriously, baseball is a grind and a test for the players. 6 games? What is their magic number now, 158? Call me when it is down to 10 or so.

  23. Yesterday was brutal, but I gotta say I’m at least glad it led to us as a fanbase having this conversation. Decades of frustration seem to have turned Toronto into a really, really awful sports town, where panic, anger and apathy are the default reaction to just about everything.

    Maybe a successful season (which I think this will be) where we confront this kind of craziness early and swiftly (like we are now) will be just the tonic. Here’s hoping.

    • This is exactly right, and why I disagree with all of this “don’t boo your own team bullshit.”

      You can’t look at these six games in a vacuum. Toronto has been perhaps the worst city for North American sports since 1993. Aside from Vince Carter and Maple Leafs playoff appearance here and there (and I hate hockey, but threw this is anyway) our teams have been putrid year after year after year.

      Now, is booing going to make this better? Of course not. Does it make it worse? Of course not. It’s sports, if people want to be angry at their own team, go for it.

      That homestand was terrible, they were lucky to win one game, but it’s a long season and they should still be somewhere in the 80s by the end of it . . . low 80s and it’s a terrible year, high eighties and it’s successful. That’s the name of the game, these guys make lots of money, I’m sure they can take a bit of razzing from the home crowd when they lose 13-0 on a Sunday against a rival in front of 41,000 paying fans.

      • Sorry Aaron, I have to disagree on one point, the does it make it worse. I would argue that it does in fact have potential to make the situation worse, I say potential because I am not in the front office, and I m not a pro athlete, and therefore do not know. However, if the constant jeering of ones own home team stops some free agents from coming to Toronto, or more immediately if it impacts the confidence of the individual player and contributes to prolonged slumps, then it absolutely does make the situation worse. Sure, I do not know whether or not it impacts individual players confidence, or how that might impact performance. And I do not know whether or not it would hinder players signing in Toronto, but I would say the possibility exists. Therefore, it does potentially hurt the team directly, both in the short term, and long term.

      • @Aaron that wasn’t really my point. I didn’t mean to excuse the booing. I just wanted to say that this town has gotten a really lousy attitude in recent years and I hope we can start to fix it.

    • Yeah…this is Toronto – where continuing to boo Daniel Alfredsson and Vince Carter is still seen as compulsory fan activity.

  24. Take any random sample of 40,000 people and you will find your fair share of idiots and assholes. I can’t help but think that plenty of people came to games this weekend just to boo Farrell, and they couldn’t have been to happy to get pasted by his team.

  25. I was so happy about the last caller. Just listened to Wilner’s segment at work today. That guy made my day. Laughed so hard that my bosses had to be pretty fuckin sure I wasn’t working. ENTERTAIN ME, DAMMIT! ENTERTAIN ME!

  26. Was the last caller actually serious because that’s pathetic

  27. How soona until AA calls up Roberto??? amirite???

    Osuna – How soona – - – get it!!!!!

    Kid with 5 IP, 8Ks, 2 hits, 1 ER

    (of course its only Lansing, but I looked for some good news from yesterday)

  28. I was at the game on Sunday and it was really difficult to be a Jays Fan. Not because of the team’s performance but because of the other assholes in the stands. People instantly began the Dickey bashing and the booing of Cabrera, it was embarrassing. I love the Jays but understand enough about Baseball and sports in general to know that you can’t win them all. I don’t understand how people can think that the Jays “owe” them a win just because they showed up to see them play.

    What we noticed was how badly the Jays need Lawrie back, if for nothing else but to put some more life into the third base corner.

  29. Also, I love the fans that complain that no players want to play in Toronto and then turn around and boo new guys in their 1st or 2nd appearances. It’s embarrassing to be a sports fan in this town. It’s a game. We are 3.7% through the season. Come back to me a quarter of the way through and we will talk. I swear, Torontofanstheworst

  30. Go Leafs Go!

    Now that I got that out of my system, the idiot hipsters that have recently jumped onto the bandwagon need to relax. We’re six games in. We’ll be fine.

    • How is calling them hipsters relevant in any way?

      • I love the use of the word “hipster” in our culture to now refer to anyone you don’t like.

        I’m pretty sure it’s the bored Raptors/TFC/Leafs/Argos fans that have jumped on the bandwagon. This city hasn’t seen a winner in 20 years, so it’s safe to say everyone is desperate for a winner of any kind.

  31. Why were so many people upset they laid a stinker in front of so many people? Shouldn’t we leave it to Rogers to worry about the PR?

  32. I feel like in a season like this – with so much excitement before anything even happened, it would have been advantageous to start the year as the Red Sox did – with a couple road series. At the very least it would have given everyone an opportunity to get into a game before they get in front of 40000+ people who expect the championship to be won by game 6.

  33. Totally agree with all the ‘don’t panic’ stuff.

    However I did raise an eyebrow about Dickey throwing a letter-high changeup or attempted slider of some sort which got sent to deep centre field in about the 4th. Definitely wasn’t a fastball or a knuckler because you could see a huge amount of spin in the high-speed. I know you have to show the hitters something different from time to time, but … I don’t know, it seemed like a questionable choice of pitch.

    My memory fails me, but in my mind it was on something like a 2-2 count or maybe 3-2. Don;t you throw you ‘best’ pitch in that circumstance?

    • Hmm … it was on a 3-2 count to MIddlebrooks with 0 outs in 5th, and the third straight 4-seamer, according to I guess he wanted to avoid the walk to leadoff hitter having gotten to 3-0 with the knuckler.

      So I guess it makes sense, but still – 3 straight Dickey fastballs?

  34. Gose Watch:

    only 1 K in 18 PAs so far – umm, but only 1 BB also (and no stolen bases)

  35. ” All the parenting books and websites and classes in the world can’t stop people from popping out more and more little person-shaped balls of hopelessly delusional entitlement, can they? Shame on all of us, really.”

    Ahhh, sweet.

  36. and when does Dickey convene the Jedi Council of Knucklers (Yoda thinks cold Toronto is, but many cranes in sky which on lightsaber battles would be cool)

  37. Rogers customers make for the worst callers. Guess what buddy – no one gives a shit that you pay $150 a month for Rogers services! Additionally, what entertainment did this guy feel entitled to? It’s not like the Jays players on the field are saying “okay guys… the people in the stands with the Rogers cell phones are getting restless. Better start trying!” Does this guy want Jose Reyes to start dancing an Irish jig if they’re getting blown out?

    Remember everyone – it’s not the real fans who are going to games and booing R.A. Dickey. It’s the fairweather fuck-tards who have been shitting on this team for the last 20 years, never once buying a ticket, while giving knob-jobs for Leafs tickets at every opportunity despite having brutal teams. Unfortunately, a good Jays team will mean that these shits will be at every game, cheering when things go well and being insufferable twats whenever a batter strikes out or a pitcher walks someone. That’s the price of having a good team. When these idiots start up, just turn to them and say, “Look, I know you haven’t been here for 20 years, but we don’t do that here.”

    • “It’s the fairweather fuck-tards who have been shitting on this team for the last 20 years, never once buying a ticket, while giving knob-jobs for Leafs tickets at every opportunity despite having brutal teams.”

      +1. This is probably the thing that irritates me the most about the Toronto sports scene.

  38. i was at sundays game, up in the 500′s, and i gotta say, the fans made the loss worse mainly because of the atmosphere they were putting out. Yes, it sucks to see your team lose, but you don’t boo your own team, especially this early in the year. It just seems really immature. Yes, you paid money to be there, but the players are human, they make mistakes, the team loses sometimes, get over it. Dickey will pick it up as the season goes by, he’s still just settling in to the new ball park. Also, to be fair Boston players know how to hit a knuckleball thanks to all the years playing with Wakefield, so they were ready for Dickey.

    Also, i find the whole paper airplane thing really immature. Again, just leave if you’re unhappy with the way things are going!

  39. I was at Friday’s game as well. Sat right next to the no-alcohol section in the 200s. Quite possibly a very good choice as the fucktards were kept to a minimum in our area… and yet there was still one douche – complete with sticker on his swanky, new ballcap – that threw a paper airplane… and got fucking tossed by the police!

    Bottom line for me when I go to the game – to be able to watch and enjoy the game of baseball. I guess there’s no way to control the number of dickbags gaining entrance into the game, but by and large the SkyDome staff do a reasonable job.

    It’s a long season of course, and I KNOW we have yet to see the best of the Jays on the field.

    Also: JOSE REYES (still can’t believe he’s a Jay!)

  40. “Booing Nick Swisher because you recognize his name or don’t like the look of his face?”

    But he looks like Billy Bob Thornton in “Sling Blade” every time I see his mug on tv. EVERY FUCKING TIME!

    Other than that though, good post, and great points.

    I’m hoping that the Jays can start to relax a bit now that they’re on the road and away from a bit of the hype. New players might be trying too hard to impress, and some players might be trying to live up to the hype about this team being a lock for post-season play. I think some of the players need to take a deep breath almost as much as some of the fans.

    Go Jays!

  41. “occupied as he was with his poor little feeble-brained pangs of sadness for not being king of the Masshole fuckfaces”

    This might be my favorite phrase you’ve ever written.

    As for the idiocy, I knew shit was gonna go to hell on Sunday once we were down 7-0. Having said that, I can’t possibly bring myself to give a shit about people trying to fuck up a baseball game that was already fucked up to begin with. Throwing paper airplanes in a win or a close game should be a one way ticket to getting raped in prison for the night. But so long as you’re not booing RA Dickey for not being able to be awesome, I have no problem with fans turning the game into the joke that the team had already made it.

    I did almost boo Dave Bush though. Wow what a terrible sack of shit pitcher he is.

  42. I dunno, I kind of think that that if you paid good money to watch a elite level baseball game and got treated to a game that was effectively over before your ace pitcher was even able to record a single out booing ain’t so out of line. I mean if your going to cheer for good baseball I don’t see anything particularily wrong with booing bad baseball. Unless one thinks that fans should be emotionless robots there are going to be highs and lows and one can’t expect a uniform reaction through it all.

    I think it’s bad that the team has gotten off to such a poor start. For the first time in a long time there is legitimate optimism for the team. Huge buzz coming out of the offseason and nothing is going to kill buzz more then a slow start to the season. I want more asses in the seats to show Rogers that the increase in spending was a wise investment and I fear that a slow start might end up keeping some filk (and their $$$)away. I’m sure they’d come back when/if the team starts winning but I’d rather have them in the interim if they would have come.

  43. Fans booing every single time the opposing team’s pitcher throws over to first is the stupidest thing Jays fans do. Never have I seen that in other ballparks, until ~3 throw-overs in the same at bat. It’s like the fans want to make sure they’ll be home in time to catch the hockey highlites before they go to bed, and want the game to finish in 90 minutes.

    • having only been to major league baseball games in two parks I genuinely thought for a long time that the booing the throw to first thing was just standard practice.
      I don’t honestly have a problem with it because I think it’s along the lines of anty other form of jeering aimed at the opposing pitcher. To me it was like playfully saying “come on! are you too afraid to pitch to our super awesome guy that we have up to bat right now”. I know they aren’t ACTUALLY afraid (probably) and I know my jeering doesn’t mean anything to them, but it’s also pretty harmless fun to jeer the opposing team.

    • This is done pretty much everywhere though.

    • Naaah it’s part of the fun in a good game and dont tell me they dont expect it. I think I’d be amazed if the opposing pitcher even noticed the jeering.

  44. I went to the game yesterday. It was atrocious and by the 6th I left my seat and went to “bar 12″ or whatever the fuck it’s called and drank till they stopped serving me.
    Nevertheless, my fiancee and I have no regrets that we spent $140 on our two (amazing) 200 lvl tickets. Your team wins or your team loses. If you’re a real fan you still come away loving the game… just hoping for a better result nex time in this case.

    Best part of the day though. Afterwards we went to the Town Crier with some friends and ran into Jack Morris. Shared a beer with him. Talked about how Farrell was an “asshole” and generally just yucked it up.

    I may not like Jack’s radio work, but now that I’ve met him, I don’t think I can hate the dude.

    On a related note, when we asked Jack about today’s game and what he thought went wrong for Dickey he just shrugged and said “he had a bad day”. Jack ain’t panicking folks. We shouldn’t either! :P

  45. i dont think RA Dickey is the pitcher of the future for the jays…and i also think he is overpaid. look at that start yesterday that was just terrible and if that keeps on repeating like it has in his past couple of starts then were in big trouble. im also allowed to boo the jays if they keep showing up like this over the course of the season. these games do mean a lot in the grand scheme of things…we were supposed to start week 1 off with a bang and now look at us were at the bottom of the AL East. see ya later, playoffs

    • You clearly learned nothing from reading this whole post and discussion thread:

      1) What you “think” about Dickey is flawed because you’re basing it on 2 starts and not on the 100 or so starts before that.
      2) Of course if KEEPS repeating that performance it will be trouble. But you have no reason whatsoever to conclude that he WILL keep repeating that performance.
      3) Good bye playoffs?!?!? Really??? If the jays go 2 and 4 during a random stretch of games in mid July should we all throw up our hands and shout Goodbye Playoffs??!?! Jesus Fucking Christ.

    • Ah jeez. See, this is the kind of stuff…..ah, forget it.

      Nevermind. Someone else’ll handle it.

    • Mike P. I didn’t see your name in the blog post of idiot post-game callers.

      But yet, here you FUCKING are! Idiot

    • Looks like the tsn commenters discovered this place.

    • Holy Fuck Mike P. I just want to scream when I read your stupid fucking post.

      Go back to

  46. “Why this kinda makes me weep for humanity: All the parenting books and websites and classes in the world can’t stop people from popping out more and more little person-shaped balls of hopelessly delusional entitlement, can they? Shame on all of us, really.”

    This little Mike P.-shaped-nugget was great.

  47. 1. If you boo your own team, you’re an asshole, full stop. Knock it off.
    2. Gotta love Wilner, I don’t know how he puts up with some callers – every Jays talk following a loss is a study in know-nothing fan panic, and I listen to the each episode with bemusement and wonder why I do it. Self-loathing, I guess. And joy at the occasional Wilner smackdown.
    3. For a time I thought it was exclusively a Toronto thing, but I follow enough fellow fans of my hockey club (go Oilers!) to feel comfortable saying a large number of fans everywhere are irrational, prone to panic, and have zero ability to put things in perspective. As it ever will be, forever and ever, amen.
    4. Enough with the paper fucking airplanes, for the love of all that is holy.
    5. Only 156 more games to go.

  48. I’m starting to think we need a more clear nomenclature (big words!!!) to distinguish the types of “people” we are talking about when discussing the behaviours at the park. The way I see it we have:

    “Baseball fans”: who truly love the game and accept all of the ups and downs
    “Bluejays fans”: who truly love their team and are pained by the downs but maintain their love.
    … note that you can be both of those first two – you’re a fan
    and… those people who buy tickets but clearly don’t have any passion for or understanding of the game. I’ll call these “attendees”

    Let’s start distinguishing between attendees and fans so us fans don’t get a bad rap.

  49. you guys CLEARLY didnt watch the game. you’re all clearly in denial about the jays i mean look at these performances so far the hitters cant hit for shit no wonder the marlins were so terrible last year with this bunch. I was kind of with the hype at the beginning but now its all gone i cant see this team winning enough games to top the division im sorry its just my opinion

    • Oh i get it… you’re trolling… you’re playing a character in order to get a rise out of us.
      I see that now.

      • Hahaha. You got it!

        Just playin’ y’all. Still a huge Dickey fan, and I believe he will bounce back just fine in his next couple of starts.

  50. At least Caller 14 prefaced his inane ramble by pointing out that he’s a fucking dipshit in general, not just when it comes to baseball.

  51. I kind of hate the way some of the media get on the crowd for booing. Personally, I’ll totally boo a shit performance, especially after the 7th when I’m totally loaded. Although on opening day, I think I was yelling Go Leafs Go. Same difference. They were shit. I’m sure they knew it and all, but it made me feel better about it. So whatever. I do, however, hate the relentless booing of individual home players (like Wells, Rios, Overbay, etc.) Every year we seem to single out a particular player and try to ridicule them. I don’t get that at all.

    As for the team, I’m totally encouraged by Brett Cecil’s velocity spike, and I’m most concerned about E4. I’ve just watched too many guys over the years have great years only to fall off a cliff. I know it’s only 6 games, but he’s scaring me so far. I mean, only a year ago they had to send him to AAA for a stretch. We kinda need him to be good again.

  52. I have been a Jays fan since day one in 1977. I never really got to hear Scott Ferguson or Dan Shulman (sp?) do the show (Jays Talk) except for when I was up there in Toronto. As a result, I don’t really remember much about those shows. Thanks to the internet, I’ve been able to listen to every Blue Jays Talk show for the last 8 years. I think the primary reason a lot of clods call the show is Wilner himself. Mike has always struck me as being rather smug and condesecending. As a result, more rational callers left the show behind a long time ago. This leaves behind a glut of callers who have nothing rational or worthwhile to say.. There a lots of intelligent posters on this website, yet none ever seem to call the Blue Jays Talk. In fact, they seem to make fun of people who do call the show. Oh we get some clowns on this website, many of them I believe say certain things just to get a reaction because they know they can post on here under an alias and then sit back and enjoy the responses to their post. Lest you think goofy callers to the post game show is a “Toronto thing”, I can assure you living here in Ohio, I get to here the Reds and Indians post game call-ins. Some of the people who call those shows should never be allowed to procreate. I think most of them call their respective shows just to get their voice on the radio. Feel free to criticize my post, I can handle it.

    • Right on. Most people that call these shows are doing so to complain. Very rarely, even in the good times, would someone be moved to call in on something positive.

  53. Nothing to worry about here. A slow start guarantees an exciting finish. Nobody said winning the East was going to be easy. We can all use a night off to relax and re-group and get ready for a wild ride.

  54. Find a real Red Sox fan — not the entitled Bahston douches, a Sox fan who had 86 years of heartbreak passed down from his or her grandparents and actually lived and died with the team, before and after 2004 (yes, they do exist, if you know where to look) — and ask them about the “pink hatters”, who showed up after that 2004 run to help turn them into douchy, Sweet Caroline-singin’ Yankees light. Then watch as the murderous rage boils in the eyes of the true Sox fan. It’s quite fun.

    My point on the pink hatters is, bandwagon fans are what run sports. Every team has them, every sport has them, and sports as a business survives because of them. How do you think the Jays drew 4 million fans a year once upon a time? Bandwagon fans jumping on board for the ride of the 1990s. How did the Phillies go from drawing flies in April 2007 to a 5 year sell-out streak that ended last season when — surprise surprise — the team finished below .500? Bandwagon fans jumping on board during a miracle division title run in 2007. The price that we must pay for finally getting a competitive team after devoting 20 years to mediocrity and JP Ricciardi because we love this damn team and this damn sport so much is that we will have to deal with these people, who will act like complete fucking idiots when they don’t get instant gratification, which is why I pointed to the much-reviled Boston pink hatters because those hardcore Sox fans who suffered for 86 years — they had to deal with the same thing, and they hate them as much as we hate paper planes. Our group of bandwagon fans seem to be a little different, they throw shit on the field not realizing game 6 of 162 doesn’t give you a parade tomorrow, and then declare they won’t ever by an RA Dickey jersey thanks solely to the second time they’ve ever seen him throw a baseball (that exact declaration was seen on my Twitter feed), and of course the whole thing is really fucking embarrassing to us real fans. But when the team’s in it in September these people will be back, probably wearing those RA Dickey jerseys they swore never to buy. And we’ll roll our eyes at them, and feel the rage building up inside, but if there’s something to cheer about in September they’ll be as loud and crazy as all of us, they sure as shit won’t be throwing paper planes any more, and they’ll be a big part of why that stadium will be filled and shaking down the stretch, and if that happens we won’t care whether Fan X that’s screaming his head off in the seat next to us jumped on board in March 2013 or April 1977, or how much knowledge s/he has about the Jays and the game of baseball, because we’ll be living in a baseball town again for the first time in 20 years. So: you want a winner, you have to deal with these people and get pissed off by them. That’s the cold hard fact. We’re no different from any other team’s hardcore fans who live and breathe the game through bad and good, and then get pissed off by the bandwagon. Whenever you get pissed off at these people, remember these three things: A) you waited 20 years for this so you know you’re better than they are; B) being a baseball fan means you are of superior intelligence to the rest of the world, and you are better than the rest of the world; C) by “the rest of the world” I am of course referring to Leafs fans.

    Apologies for the rant, it had to be done.

  55. I sat in section 130a, close to the field and I was surrounded by the usual drunk frat boys. I had them screaming in my ear the whole game. They were getting on everyone: the ball boy, players, other fans, even a guy with a combover, Jackie Bradley jr was getting because they found out his dad is a bus driver. If hecklers are funny I think it makes the game more entertaining but this was just abuse. Of course the ushers turn a blind eye as long as they’re buying Rogers’ beer, but security came swarming out of the woodwork when somebody pulled out a vuvuzela. One guy got taken out by the cops in a chokehold for sneaking in his own beer, he was the only one I saw getting kicked out that night.

  56. aaaaaarrrrrrrrooooooooo!

    maybe I should change my name to Sleepy OD … is baseball live again?

    geez sharkey, that’s not a rant, it’s rational and very well said. We’ll all live to die another day.

  57. The last caller was a classic. Thomas has purchased Rogers services & complains when they go out. He has purchased 2 Blue Jay services, Offence & Defence, & has a right to get his money’s worth.. What an idiot. He purchased the right to watch a game, & what he deserves to get is effort from the participants . . .not necessarily results, only effort.

    Normally I’m pretty anti-authority, but I have to say, I love seeing the field running idiots get knocked down & handcuffed…and I really don’t need to have anyone around me showing off their tremendous wit by yellng negative comments at our players, or the others. Sit down, shut up, watch he game, cheer when we do well, cheer like crazy when we do really well…otherwise, just stop embarrassing yourself and ruining my afternoon. I spent more than a few days in the bleachers late 70s and early 80′s at the Ex, and I never remember the type of boorish behaviour we see at the dome now. (but people never talked at the movies back then either, and the public address announcer never had to actually tell people to remove their hats for anthems ..). Think I’m getting old

  58. I agree with the comments about the call from Mark from Caledonia, he really doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about.

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