I’m on the record– assuming that Twitter counts as “the record”– as not being particularly enamoured with Reds catcher Ryan Hanigan. The Jays, on the other hand, may not feel the same way. They’ve inquired about him, according to a piece from earlier in the week at Sportsnet from Shi Davidi, and with Devin Mesoraco and now Brayan Pena now in place behind the plate for Cincinnati, it seems certain that Hanigan’s name has entered a grim looking catching market.

Buster Olney thinks so too:

Now, a statement like that could just be posturing from the Reds, or a hopeful attempt to get some of Hanigan’s suitors to up their offer, but… maybe?

Drew wrote about Hanigan last week at Getting Blanked, passing along a Dave Cameron tweet, in which the FanGraphs man pointed us to a leaderboard showing that, over their careers, Hanigan has been more valuable than Jarrod Saltalamacchia, and saying that he’d take Hanigan straight up for 2014.


The two players took divergent paths in 2013, though. Saltamacchia posted a 117 wRC+, while Hanigan’s was a paltry 53– lower than J.P. Arencibia’s, even. Hanigan’s season was hampered by oblique and wrist injuries, plus a abysmally low BABIP (.216, compared to a career mark of .283), which may suggest some manner of bounce back should be in the cards for next year, but I’m still not sure that’s enough to offset the fact that– as Drew points out– his vaunted 11.2% walk rate is a bit of a mirage.

Because he hit almost exclusively ahead of the pitcher, Hanigan picked up an inordinate number of intentional walks– not to mention a few “unintentional intentional walks” as well, no doubt. Nine of the 29 walks he took over his 260 plate appearances were intentional, making his “real” walk rate more like 7.7%. Same goes for the year before: over 317 plate appearances, thirteen of 44 walks were intentional, making his walk rate 9.8%, not the 11.9% you’ll see on his FanGraphs page.

That’s still decent, of course. Especially the 2012 rate. It’s still better than what we saw from Arencibia. And his career .359 on-base, inflated as it might be, is still pretty terrific, plus his reputation as a pitch framer and defensive catcher is beyond reproach. Still, Drew pretty much hits the nail on the head:

Many worse hitters got playing time in the National League as defense-first, “catch and throw” backstops. That’s fine. Ryan Hanigan is good at that. Let him do that. But to insist that Hanigan is anything more is fool-hardy. Misguided. A waste of everyone’s time. He is not a better option as an everyday catcher in the big leagues than Jarrod Saltalamacchia. Not in a vacuum which ignores the not-insignificant “every day” part of that equation.

“Many teams would be well-served with Hanigan in their ranks,” Drew explains, “in the proper role.”

And that’s the rub. Hanigan has played more than 100 games only once in his career. He also has a pronounced platoon split: a right-handed hitter, before the disaster that was this year he killed lefties. What that would mean though, were he to come to Toronto, is a whole lot of Josh Thole. It also means, because he made $2.05-million last year and is arbitration eligible for the last time this winter, just about any kind of savings that the Jays might find by jettisoning Arencibia ($2.8-million per MLBTR) would be immediately lost if they made a play for Hanigan.

On the other hand, someone has to catch for this team, and it’s highly unlikely they’re going to find someone reasonable who’ll do it for the league minimum. But still… giving up a decent prospect for that???

I don’t know. Maybe?

I suppose it comes down to what is meant by a “good” prospect. Surely it wouldn’t be close one of the Jays’ actual top ones. Sean Nolin, perhaps? But shit, that’s even pretty fucking high. A fringy reliever who’s out of options I could understand, but a prospect??? A “good” one? I mean… do we even want the Jays to pay anything to acquire a guy who is going to force a shit-tonne more playing time onto Thole?

Matt Klaassen takes a lengthy look at Hanigan over at FanGraphs, being kinder than I’ve been in trying to see the injuries and poor batted ball luck as a reason for the sudden decline in 2013. He writes:

Going season-by-season with Hanigan’s numbers is a bit dicey, since he never has had a full season of plate appearances — he had 371 in 2012, and that was the most of his career by far. His 304 in 2011 was the only other time he has has more than 300 in one season. With that sample size caution noted, we do need to compare a bit to see if there is any particularly troubling change in 2013 in the peripherals. If we break things to into more precise units, we find that the peripherals indicative or true talent over small samples for Hanigan are pretty much the same in 2013 as in previous seasons. His strikeout rate is still low (is has been about 12 percent for the past three seasons) due to his excellent contact rate (over 90 percent, as it has been for his career. Hanigan’s 2013 power numbers (.063 ISO) are poor, and have been on the decline for a few years, but a .063 ISO is actually the same as 2012, and power is not really a major part of Hanigan’s (limited) offensive game, anyway, which is primarily about taking walks and making contact.

Klaassen counters that by noting, with regard to the injuries, that the Reds know more than anybody else right now, which could be telling. On the other hand, “Hanigan’s skillset is tailor made for a team that emphasizes walks and values defense from the position,” he says, and he wonders if the Reds saw that he’d have value on this market, and jumped at Pena knowing that they could use Hanigan “to upgrade another hole of their roster that Mesoraco couldn’t fill.”


And maybe I’m being too hard on him, given how hopeful I am that guys like Brandon Morrow, Jose Bautista, and Melky Cabrera will end up just fine, or close enough to it, in 2014. But man… as easy as it is for a lot of fans to say “I just want a defense-first guy, I don’t care if he can’t hit,” it’s… um… man. I know the position is dog shit right now, but seriously, we really can’t do better than this???

Comments (126)

  1. Still better than jpa
    All that matters

    • All that matters? What goes the other way doesn’t matter? No way I’d give up Nolin for him Nolin is weirdly underrated (big guy durable, gets Ks could easily be a competent mid/back end starter). If they wanted Lincoln and Jenkins fine, but anyone sniffing top 10 prospect lists , no way

  2. Trading for a question mark to replace another question mark? Pass.

  3. He’s not JPA. +1

  4. I could be convinced to trade a 2nd tier bullpen piece or low level prospect for Hanigan and go with a straight platoon with Thole. Perhaps Hanigan’s defensive skills would allow him to catch Dickey when there is a LHP on the mound.

    However, if that is the strategy, they definitely need to get a better bat at 2B and a DH platoon for Lind. In my view, it is fine to have low offensive expectations for one position but not multiple.

  5. I would rather take a chance on a BOUNCE BACK from JPA then SETTLE for Hannigan .. that’s all this would be .. how much leverage can the Reds really have being they currenlty have 2 mlb C’s signed???

    There are worse things then a Defensive minded catcher, but there aren’t many “starters” worse then Hannigan. I’d be happy with him instead of Thole but I can not see the Jays accepting him as a 120 game player .. no one else has .

    • As much as I hate JPA, there is a point at which you have to acknowledge that he is young and stays healthy for the most part and he could potentially get better at the plate and behind it. And he knows our pitchers FWIW.

      I mean unless we are upgrading beyond a shadow of a doubt, why bother?

    • +1.

      The JPA haters are assuming that he will never improve from 2013 season.

      Are these the same people who wanted to run AAron Hill out of town?

      Hill bounced back. Kelly Johnson bounced back.
      Even Rios is better now than he was in 2009.

  6. Seriously? is this all they can find like come on. My vote is still Navarro. I mean just look at the guy beady eyed no wonder he can’t hit… He can’t see lol

  7. .. and once we see how crappy Hannigan is at the plate, no one will be arguing in his favour that at least he is great at framing pitches ..

  8. I love AA (mostly) and am trying to be patient. I mean it’s not even December yet.

    But man part of me just wants him to quit being cute and throw a pile of money at a pitcher and a real catcher so we can all relax and go away until spring.

  9. Bring back Jose Molina?

  10. They are not jettisoning Arencibia to save money, it’s because minus the HRs he’s useless.

  11. Why couldn’t JPA be the backup for Hanigan? I don’t know if Hanigan can catch Dickey, but if he can, wouldn’t right handed, durable, JP be the better partner for him? Seems like a better alternative than giving loads of playing time to Thole anyway.

    • JP is not going to be the backup here.

      • Why can’t the jays just cut him loose?

        • I think they would if they couldn’t get anything for him. Maybe that’s wishful thinking. But in most of the chatter I’ve heard people agree that it wouldn’t be a tenable situation to have him come back in a reduced role, which I think makes total sense given all that we know about him.

          • i wonder what they could get for Arenicibia. maybe, like the KJ for Hill trade, another change of scenery guy… Danny Espinosa of the Nats perhaps? it would be another 2B option and save some money… since he’s arb-eligible too but played in the minors last year.

            • Espinosa for Arencibia is certainly an interesting switch of “project for project”. Why not?

              • another attractive thing about Espinosa (aside from his dreamy eyes) he’s a switch hitter with better splits against LHP. you could platoon Goins and Espinosa at 2B and have plus, plus defense and decent offense.

              • Yeh Corpas coulda shut down the Reds in that bdbnaox, right? I think he’s goin’ back down I-25 Saturday when they, either, bring up Drew P (pronounced Droopy) or activate Francis to fill in for Chatwood. If Chatwood can’t make his bullpen session next week, I expect they’ll DH him which makes him eligible to come back on the 25th. That’s three starts.If EYjr has options, then he should go down the freeway with Corpas. Don’t know if you want Dickerson being a part time player with this OF. They may leave him down there for the whole season.As much as I like Wilin, he needs to tweak the ABs. If that means a trip south, then lets bring McBride up to back up Yorvit and use in PH situations. If Rosario can turn it around down there, then McBride can go back unless he’s out of options. As it stands now, he and Dickerson are starters for the AAA all-stars. We may not see either of them until after the break unless there’s a nasty injury.Garland gave himself another start with those 5 donuts he put up last night. If he’s turned the corner, he stays. Nicasio could be the mopup guy if Chatwood gets back and the starter on Saturday sticks. Just sayin’VA:F [1.9.22_1171]please wait…(1 vote cast)

            • I think that’s about as reasonable a way as I could see it turning out.

      • I’m not sure JPA’s ego could handle being labelled as a back up.

        • I think Espinosa would be a pretty good return for JPA in that they’ve both had some flashes. Espinosa has put up a couple 3 win seasons – though he strikes out almost as much as JPA does..

          • I’ve been wondering if the Nats would be open to taking Stroman, Gose and a third prospect like Jimenez in exchange for Wilson Ramos and Espinosa, with them also making a run at Brian McCann or Jarrod Saltalamacchia and flipping Span for a different prospect. I don’t know a ton about their financial flexibility, or what their interest in any of those players is like, so it’s nothing more than a dream, but I feel like that would be a move that the Jays could build their off-season around.

      • Is it not worth letting him start next year in hopes that his play/value might increase and then trade him? If he still blows, cut him..

    • Because JPA can’t catch a knuckle ball that’s why he cant be the backup

  12. I feel like if you’re going to upgrade on Arencibia and spend prospects or useful pieces to do it – you’d better at least be sure that you’re actually upgrading. I know that the catching position is shit altogether – but trading for a shit catcher to replace a shit catcher, in hopes of platooning with another shit catcher is not the off-season dream we were going for.

  13. Hanigan reminds me a lot of when the Jays acquired Thole: no power, decent on-base skils/walk rate, some history of success in the bigger leagues, coming off a season where his numbers were affected by injury.

    I like the idea of buying low on players and I don’t mind the idea of getting Hanigan if it doesn’t cost too much in the way of prospects, but it makes me nervous that the most recent similar example has gone so poorly so far. At least Thole. regardless of how well he hits, can catch Dickey.

  14. Josh Thole career wOBA vs RHP – .298
    Thole Fangraphs Defense Metric – 16.1 (career)

    Ryan Hanigan career wOBA vs LHP – .349
    Hanigan Defense – 50.6 (career)

    If used properly, that platoon could be pretty effective.

    Steamer projects has Hanigan good for 2.3 WAR and Thole good for .8 WAR. A Three Win catcher for about $3 million or the same cost as Arencibia? That sounds good to me.

    Esmil Rogers for Hanigan? No way anyone is giving up a B prospect or better for 1 year of Ryan Hanigan.

    • I don’t know. There are a LOT of RHP, and a .298 wOBA ain’t so hot. But it’s definitely an improvement still, you’re right.

      • good point. if Hanigan was the lefty and Thole the righty it would make much more sense and be much more palatable.

    • It’s tough to platoon catchers when you’re tied down to having them catch specific pitchers. It’s not always the case but teams do seem to like attach catchers to specific pitchers if they are going to be using more than one.

      And especially with Dickey.

  15. This would be like rationalizing to yourself banging someone super unattractive just because they’re less repulsive than the last one you were with

  16. Fuck it. let’s teach Sierra how to catch.
    DAT ARM!

  17. Depressing thought of the day… in Eno Sarris’ Fangraphs chat yesterday he said he’d take the over on Yan Gomes at 4.0 WAR next year.

    • oh god

    • Sigh.

      • I would not expect Zunino to be up until June or July, at the eaierlst. For all the he could get the job out of ST hype, there’s a very slim chance of that actually happening. If you make that deal, I would definitely expect to be without a helpful catcher for pretty much all of 2013. Even when Zunino comes up, don’t expect him to be a great fantasy player right away. It’s rare for catchers to come to the majors and hit immediately.

    • Which would make Gomes a top 5 catcher. I’m gonna take the under.

      He also said that he thought the Jays rotation would be Dickey, Buerhle, Redmond, Hutch, Stroman come opening day. Not sure if he forgot about Morrow or disregards him. And thought they would add no one.

    • The only way this would make me happy was if Yan Gomes made a trip to Toronto just to punch Parkes in the face. He talked so much shit on the guy

  18. While I like the idea of better defence and pitch framing that Hannigan would bring, I wouldn’t give a top prospect for him. Maybe he could be part of a bigger deal that would involve a pitcher or maybe Phillips?

  19. If he can catch a knuckleball… I`m sold.

  20. Maybe JPA brings back a comparable prospect to the one traded for Hanigan.

    This makes it basically a straight up swap for the Jays which I would do 8 days a week.

    Plenty of thump at the top of the lineup. I’d rather have my 9 hitter be an OBP guy than a SLG guy.

  21. Dan Johnson a jay
    Last guy on the bench in the mike McCoy role?

  22. Pass. We want Chooch!

  23. While I agree I don’t see JPA as a possible back up in Toronto for the same reasons you suggest however is there really another team willing to give JPA more than a 100 starts?

    • Probably not, but he’ll be useful to someone. He’s better than most backups, unbelievably– as long as we remember that he’s probably not going to be so awful at the plate again.

      • I think we can agree awful would probably be a step up from what we saw from JP this year but that’s a fair assumption.

  24. Just looking through his fangraph’s page it looks like Hanigan just needs some playing time:

    We know he has awful power, inflated walk rates, makes good contact and seems to have pretty decent plate discipline. Looking at his arguably best years 2009-2011, you can see he was hovering around league average for wOBA and had a pretty decent wRC+ despite pretty few plate appearances. Even in 2012 he didn’t play THAT poorly but this year it definitely seemed like he regressed probably due to injuries.

    After a quick search I found that in 2013 Hanigan had been riddled with injuries to his oblique, ankle, wrist, and thumb*. Even in 2012, he ended september with a shoulder injury so maybe it shouldn’t be surprising that his 2013 wasn’t as good as it could have been. Plus, it looked like he injured his oblique at the beginning of Spring Training in 2013 and he didn’t go on the DL for it during the regular season until 7 weeks later. Now I don’t know all the finer details of catcher injuries but it seems like a wrist or thumb injury may not be a rare injury. Could it not be reasonable to expect that IF he stays healthy he could return to the 2.0 ish win player he was? Maybe. I mean 2.0 WAR is a lot better than JP anways so……. why not eh?

    So in terms of who to give up, I personally wouldn’t want to give up anything really good but I dunno, the Jays have a surplus of pitchers it seems both starters (in some cases I use the term loosely) and relievers but I don’t know much about the Minor League depth to speak to anything else. Anyways just thought I’d share a little more insight into his Hanigan’s upsides.

    And here is the link I used to reference his injury history

  25. How much do you give up for a marginal improvement in the catching position?
    I just don’t want to see “anything’s better than JPA” getting the Jays a guy who’s just a hair less useless – and we’re out a decent prospect, to boot.

    • From what I’ve gathered, the defensive upgrade would be much more than marginal.

      Also, who said JPA has to be traded this year? Why not stash him in Buffalo?

      Have some catching depth, sort his shit out etc., it’s not a lot of money for a guy who they thought was going to be the guy, who has the capacity to perhaps be version of the guy they thought he could be at such a scarce position.

  26. I have no problem with this if it means resources are allocated elsewhere.

    Worst case scenario the Jays get a solid catch and throw guy.

    Best case, Gibby finds some platoon magic.

    Hanigan is cheap (compared to the FA’s), they could even stash JPA in Buffalo for the year and try and rebuild value.

  27. stoeten doesn’t seem to understand what non tendered means.

  28. Per mlbtraderumors hannigan had a slightly higher walk rate in 300 ab in 7th slot…. I have been on chooch wagon as he is there for the picking but this could work
    nicely as well… as for jp why non tender convo happens? Someone will take a chance in 20+hr catchers. you would think they would have similar value to offset the trade.

  29. I’ve liked Hannigan for a while but I don’t know if I ever saw him as more then a platoon guy (80 to 100 games). Plays against lefties plus a personal catcher situation if he really clicks with one of the starters. I’d make the deal for a bubble bullpen arm (like Rogers) or a tier-2 prospect.

    I don’t think Thole’s a good platoon partner (especially given he’d probably be facing the bulk of the right-handed starters) but the Jays lineup could use one spot that’s defense first if they upgrade at 2b and, most importantly, spend the bulk of their resources ($$ and trade bait) on upgrading the rotation.

  30. carlos ruiz

  31. This post doesn’t have enough ‘Maybe?’ lines in it.

    Maybe includes more maybes next time.

    • Well, that one word, punctuation included, pretty much sums up how every Jays fan feels about Hanigan, doesn’t it?

  32. I feel like we live in a bizaro world where Ryan Hanigan could command a “good prospect in return” and we can talk ourselves into Jose Bautista being only worth Dom Brown..

  33. With his various injury history, I keep seeing people say “If he stays healthy”. Why give him the benefit of a doubt of an if?

  34. based on rsb, drs, and rpp for the last three years, I do not think defensively Hanigan at 33 is much better than J.P. defensively.
    hanign J.P
    2011 0 -5 (first year)
    2012 7 3
    2013 -1 2

    hannign J.P
    2011 -1 -5 (first year)
    2012 6 -3
    2013 2 -4


    hanign J.P
    2011 2 -5.7 (first year)
    2012 4.9 1.8
    2013 -.7 -1.2

    hanign J.P
    2011 -3 -2(first year)
    2012 0 5
    2013 4 1

    and in CPP J.P has been 48, 50, 45. to Hanigan’s 28, 40, 19. I am not saying he is as terrible as J.P ,but since his offense does not seem head and shoulders above J.P and his defense is slightly better. I am thinking, unless they get him for mid prospect (Nolin) I see this as not being worth the trade for a catcher who will be 34 next August. I am not always trying to play the age game, but I often wonder why people believe are players like Bautista will decline in there 30s but other teams players won’t. I just think trading for 33 year old catcher is risky when you think of the wear and tear of the position.

  35. Sounds like we would need another catcher to platoon with Ryan Hanigan. How about 1 good (enough) one and Josh.

  36. Reds “think” they’ll good a good prospect.

    Think = Hope.

    Hope = Not Happening.

    It’s kinda like the Jays fans who “think” we’ll get anything for Strike3bia.

  37. Grunching comments, so apologies if this was touched on.

    [...] making his “real” walk rate more like 7.7%. Same goes for the year before: over 317 plate appearances, thirteen of 44 walks were intentional, making his walk rate 9.8%, not the 11.9% you’ll see on his FanGraphs page.

    As nitpicky as it may be (mostly due to the SSS), Hanigan’s “real walkrate” is a bit of a fallacy, in that the math doesn’t ever assume that he’d have otherwise walked were he pitched to. He should walk at approximately the same rate that he had otherwise in the PA’s where he didn’t get IBB’ed, so simply subtracting those plate appearances is ever-so-slightly unfair.

  38. Realistically, what would the orioles want for weiters?
    Delebar, Stroman, JPA?

  39. I like Dan Johnson.

  40. I’m glad we’ve heard no mention of Dustin Ackley. Might mean that AA’s working on a deal for him.

  41. he looks like a pig, therefore i think he’ll go to the whitesox

    • At first I thought your comment was a bit rude, but then I scrolled back up to Hannigans picture.

      Nailed it.

      Plus I read that he wallows in his own filth.


  42. No rumours at all .

  43. Keith Olbermann dscussed the possibility of the Rays moving to Montreal last night.


    The Expos in the AL East would crate quite a rivalry.

    • The only problem is, no player of any kind, including Canadians would want toplay in the racist hole known as Quebec.
      I am from there originally and have been treated like dirt because of my heritage by many in the public sector. I can’t see baseball EVER going back there. Language poilice on street corners be damded

  44. What’s the going rate on a chooch these days?


    I dont think the fans can handle 1 more year of so-so.

    • 3/26

      Are the Phillies trying to be bad at baseball? Is this match-fixing? If you were to try and get a bad team together you’d struggle to do worse than the number of long term high dollar deals for unproductive players they currently have.

  45. Mike McCoy signs a minor league deal w/ the Red Sox?
    NOOOOOOOOO – they’re out to steal the Jays soul.
    I don’t know what we did – but Farrell… Johnny Mac… now MikeyMc? Oh god don’t let Kawasaki sign there!

  46. OK…I’m looking at Hanigan’s pig-face here now for a couple of days.
    My insatiable demand for rosterbation is ever-growing….and having nothing to feed that jones is starting to give me the screaming meemies. Not a rumour, not a sniff, not a single Kenny Ken Ken story….I’m even starting to look for the latest Carfardo dropping.
    ‘Tis a sad, empty time of year.

  47. Nick Carfado:

    Jose Bautista, RF, Blue Jays — Rumors that Bautista could be dealt for pitching have persisted for a couple of offseasons but the Blue Jays haven’t wanted to break up the Bautista-Edwin Encarnacion dynamic in the middle of the order. The Jays are desperate for at least two starting pitchers and dealing Bautista may land them one. “It’s a name we’re hearing through backchannels right now, but wouldn’t be surprised if he’s available” said an NL general manager. Bautista was one of Farrell’s personal favorites in Toronto, however it’s doubtful the Blue Jays would deal within the division — even though the Red Sox have extra pitching.

    What a homer.

    I doubt Bautista gets moved in the off-season. Jays need pitching, yes, but at the expense of arguably their best player? Filling one hole by creating another is just stupid.

    • No way in a million years does Bautista get traded to the Red Sox. I’d be right gob-smacked if AA traded Bautista this season, let alone to a division rival.
      No matter Bautista’s accomplishments, I don’t think a top-flight pitcher gets traded even-steven for a hitter in today’s game – especially a guy that’s in his 30′s already.
      Bautista would get you a couple of decent position players and a top prospect or two, however.

      • @fastball


        AA is not going to trade Bautista to the Red Sox even if they offer Clay Buckholz, Dustin Pedroia & Daid Ortiz.

  48. Anyone have any idea what Cafardo’s definition of a “backchannel” is?

  49. It’s been, what, 3 days now, we’ve had to look at Hanigan’s mug every time we log on. It’s painful enough that there’s nothing happening. But do you have to rub our faces in it? (Or rub his face in us?) You’re killing us! Please, Stoeten, just post something else. No text necessary. Just get rid of that guy’s face. I can’t take it anymore.

    • as Smokey would say “I second that emotion”

      • AA’s Ode to JPA:

        Although he may be cute
        He’s just a substitute
        Because you’re the permanent one.

        • Nice one, Small Potatoes!

        • JPA’s Tweet, y’all:

          Look like nothing’s gonna change
          Everything still remains the same
          I can’t do what ten people tell me to do
          So I guess I’ll remain the same, yes

          I’m sittin’ on the dock of the bay
          Watching the tide roll away
          Ooo, I’m just sittin’ on the dock of the bay
          Wastin’ time.

      • For you youguns that w/b Smokey Robinson

  50. Yeah I’m pretty sure this organization has their sights set higher than Ryan ‘cocksucking’ Hanigan.

    For starters you can’t even market the guy. Second and more importantly he sucks huge amounts of weiner.

  51. and by ‘sucks huge amounts of weiner’ I mean he is not good at baseball.

    • He is a 6 year older, very very slightly better catcher ( in shorter time ) than J.P. My argument for why shorter is above, but if it came to Hannigan or J.P I’d rather keep J.P than the prospects for Hannigan for a super subtle improvement.

    • and by ‘ not good at basebal’l I mean not good enough to want to upgrade the current catcher

  52. Why would the Jays want to replace J.P????!!?

  53. [...] Jay Blue over at Blue Jays From Away says that the Jays should just say no to Reds’ catcher Ryan Hanigan, which pivots off pieces from Drew Fairservice at Getting Blanked and Stoeten at DJF. [...]

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