kendrickiannetta

It’s not exactly news that the Jays and the Angels could very potentially line up when it comes to trades this off-season, but in his piece this morning at ESPN.com (Insider Olney), Buster Olney certainly hammered the point home. Though he didn’t mention the Jays by name, he highlighted reasons why there could be a fit quite clearly:

The Los Angeles Angels finished 22nd in starters’ ERA last season, and are said to be casting a wide net as they look for ways to upgrade their rotation through trades. There are still starting pitchers available through free agency, but agents report that Arte Moreno’s executives are not engaging much in that market, which speaks to the budget crunch the Angels face.

. . .

Unless Moreno is willing to flirt with the luxury-tax cap and increase his payroll, then the Angels’ only real hope of landing some pitching is to trade assets on the major league roster, because their farm system is thin. This is why they began reaching out to other teams in early October to let them know they’d be willing to talk about Mark Trumbo, Peter Bourjos, Chris Iannetta and Howie Kendrick, among others.

That said, this is still not an easy fix. The Angels are said by rival executives to be targeting young starters early in their careers — i.e., cheap and controllable. But a lot of rival executives are lukewarm about what the Angels have to offer.

The second baseman, Kendrick, and the catcher, Iannetta, are the targets that Alex Anthopoulos would have some obvious interest in, and if you’re the Jays, there is actually a lot to like about the scenario Olney presents.

The fact that executives may be lukewarm would seem to be a plus, because what that says to me is that the price may not be terribly high, even though these two players are clearly upgrades on what the Jays have at those positions. Iannetta’s defensive work isn’t great, but he played in 115 games in 2013, walked in 17% of his at-bats, and was worth +2.1 WAR– a rate at which he’d have been nearly a three-win improvement on J.P. Arencibia. Kendrick, meanwhile, is a low-walk, high-contact, high-BABIP guy, with solid defense (5.4 UZR/150 for his career), who has been worth +11.4 WAR total in the last three seasons, though half of that value came in 2011 alone.

If healthy, the Jays could be looking at something on the order of six wins from those players, at a total salary commitment for 2014 of $14.325-million– which… um… kinda puts the whole Josh Johnson qualifying offer debate into perspective, huh?– and just about the same amount on the books again for the following year.

Best of all, if Olney is right and the Angels are motivated in part by the idea of shedding some salary– and, it should be noted, they do have cheaper, in-house replacements in catcher Hank Conger and middle infielders Grant Green and Taylor Lindsey– the price could be low enough for the Jays to potentially pry them loose with non-roster players. The trouble is, which ones?

Or… actually, the first bit of trouble is, just how early in their careers would the starters the Angels are looking for have to be?

The Jays certainly have a surplus of controllable arms of varying types. There are high-end ones who might not be ready to contribute just yet (Aaron Sanchez, Marcus Stroman); ones coming off injury with limited big league track records of success (Drew Hutchison, Kyle Drabek); true back-end or long relief guys who showed in 2013 they might deserve an opportunity (Esmil Rogers, Todd Redmond); and completely untested guys who may or may not be great (Sean Nolin, Deck McGuire).

They also have J.A. Happ– who is too expensive to be a long-man for the Jays, and maybe not under team control long enough for the Angels (one year plus an option)– and Ricky Romero, who… um… is from Southern California? And might be worth taking a flier on for Anaheim, as long as the Jays are paying all of the freight?

So, the possibilities are plentiful, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that making the pieces fit will be easy. I’d wager the Jays could get a deal done pretty quickly if they were willing to offer a Stroman or a Sanchez in a package, but let’s fucking hope that’s not on the table– at least not from AA’s end.

Beyond those two, though, I think I’d move just about any two of those other guys in order to make a deal like this happen. Hell, throw in a mid-relief arm too, if you must! But I think that still leaves you with some lingering concerns (apart from whatever ones that Anaheim would have): first, payroll, and second, remaining trade chips.

Adding $14-million in payroll would, when considering arbitration raises that are still coming, take the Jays almost exactly to the $150-million figure that most of us believe is the point where Rogers would prefer to stop spending. That could be mitigated, though, by sending J.P. Arencibia ($2.8-million arbitration projection) the other way– Conger needs a backup!– or finding a way to involve Happ ($5.2-million salary for 2014) or getting the Angels to take on at least some of what’s still owed Romero.

In other words, maybe the Jays could find a way to offset some of the difference. But that still doesn’t leave a whole of payroll space to fix the club’s actual top need, another front-end rotation arm.

It also would very possibly leave the Jays looking at either the free agent market for that solution, or at making a rather unpalatable deal, as guys like Nolin, Hutchison, Drabek, etc., represent the club’s best mid-range trade chips. Moving too much of that capital would leave players like Sanchez, Stroman, Jose Bautista and Colby Rasmus as the club’s best options to move in order to get the top pitcher they covet, and would further deplete what is currently a wealth of rotation depth.

Now, if you could add Kendrick and Iannetta, then convince Rogers to give you enough wiggle room to add another $15- to $20-million for an Ubaldo Jimenez, while knocking down enough payroll by jettisoning Arencibia and Happ, giving away Romero to whoever will give the most salary relief, and maybe even– if you really have to, just for the sake of savings– moving Casey Janssen for minor league pieces or those making the minimum, uh… that could actually be a hell of a thing, no?

It’s fanciful as fuck, yes, but just go with me on this for a second…

Say the additions I’m suggesting take them to somewhere in the $165-million area, assuming no salary going the other way to Anaheim, and a $15-million first year on whichever free agent pitcher you sign. Janssen, Arencibia, and Happ alone represent $12-million in salary. Huh? Huh? Huh?

I know these sorts of suggestions are always ridiculous– believe me, I’m rolling my eyes at myself right now, even– but maybe it’s ridiculous enough to work! Could Rogers stomach going a few million north of $150 on the club’s final payroll figure? Is there enough rotation depth left if you’re moving guys like Drabek, Hutchison, Nolin, and Happ? Would Ubaldo or Ervin Santana actually come here and take something like $15-million for the first year of a possibly-backloaded deal? Would the Angels actually bank on back end rotation guys that we won’t, not get better offers, and be willing to move as much big league talent as I’m suggesting for those kinds of question marks?

Those last two questions are the big ones, and the last one in particular is almost certainly where this whole scheme falls apart.

If you can find a way to make the answer to all of those questions “yes,” though… uh… off-season solved???

Sure. Off-season solved. Why the fuck not?

Or say it doesn’t work. What if you do include Stroman?

Comments (227)

  1. Damn Stoeten, you are the Encyclopedia Brown of the off-season.

    Do it.

    CASE CLOSED!

  2. Please keep in mind, again, that I honestly do know that these kind of scenarios *never* work, and that there’s surely something I’m overlooking.

    Though don’t let that stop you from pointing it out.

    • The biggest problem I see is that the Jays and Angels have similar problems. Offence but no pitching, running close to their spending limit etc.

    • Why worry about other people frowning on your scenarios. To me the spit balling about potential scenarios is one the best parts of the game. Just because others say the average Joe isn’t aware of how complicated trades might actually be to make, it doesn’t mean simple ones can’t happen as we saw last night with the Fielder and Kinsler trade.

    • I like your scenario – but believe that there could be an even bigger play here if another team joins the fray.
      I think AA is likely going to need a 3 team shuffle to pull off something big – perhaps out of the National League?

  3. As long as it doesn’t involve Sanchez or Stroman and doesn’t open up another hole somewhere else, I’m all for it.

  4. I’ve been on this line of thinking for a little bit. I think the Angels fit because, in addition to some of the prospects you named, they seem like a possible destination for some of our trade-able players that could clear some salary.

    Happ, as you mentioned, could be a fit in LA, at least in giving them rotation depth. Is that the kind of player AA was talking about when he said teams had interest in his guys pending other free agents signing? The Angels have reportedly wanted to bring back Jason Vargas, and if he signs elsewhere, Happ is pretty comparable in talent.

    The Angels need bullpen help badly, and Casey Janssen would be an obvious fit, I think.

    If moving salary becomes a big issue, the Angels seem as likely as anyone to take a chance on Maicer Izturis as 2B depth who used to be popular in their city, and, in a pipedream, Ricky Romero.

    Now, the Angels don’t HAVE to move Howie Kendrick, but certainly seem interested in that option, and the Tigers acquiring Kinsler takes away one of the more likely destinations. Who else needs a 2B? Assuming the Yankees re-sign Cano, only the Jays, Orioles and Royals are the teams with obvious holes. Other holes could open up, of course, if the Braves can jettison Dan Uggla, the Nationals make a big deal involving Anthony Rendon, or if the Reds want to trade for another second baseman after moving Phillips – but it’s much harder to see a team making two trades to solve it’s 2B situation rather than just one.

  5. I think it may be a stretch to take Olney’s comment about executive being luke warm and concluding that a package of Drabek, Hutchison, Nolin, and Happ would be able to snag those two. I’m not sure if that’s what you’re suggesting but, for the exact reason you outlined – 6WAR from premium positions for $14M – I’d expect a package of Iannetta and Kendrick be more expensive than that.

    • I agree. OK, then, switch one of those names for Stroman.

      Now what?

      • Yea. I think you’d need a better P than Happ and guys coming off DL seasons to interest the Angels to give up both those guys. Even Stroman or Nolin or Sanchez, while that may be fairer, may not interest the Angels because they are certainly looking for surefire 2014 help.

      • I think now you’re talking. There’s been a lot of Stroman love lately and I’m far from capable of evaluating minor (or major) league talent but that’s got to be getting close… It’d make me real nervous if the Jays pulled the trigger on that one though.

      • The flip side of all of this is – and we seem to ignore it a bit because we know AA prefers the trade market – there’s some pretty comparable free agent targets to the guys we’re talking about.

        Howie Kendrick and Omar Infante have been basically the same guy over the last two years. Infante’s two years older and will probably get an extra year at the money Kendrick makes, so there’s drawbacks, but that same logic can be used if the Jays offer up, say, JA Happ in the deal. If you want a back-end starter in free agency, you’re going to have to give Jason Vargas a lot more than two-years and $11M.

        Dioner Navarro and AJ Pierzynski are out there in free agency too, and also project to be worth roughly the same WAR values as Iannetta. Different profiles – what Iannetta does probably fits the Jays quite well, in every regard but defense – but my point is just that the Jays have some leverage in these hypothetical talks as well.

        • But Iannetta and Kendrick combined are a payroll hit of $14M. Not going to be so of any of those other guys. If you can get them with depth, that’s an idea I get.

          • Totally. I’m just saying, a back-end starter like Happ and a closer in Janssen would probably cost a lot more than $10M in 2014 too. So there’s financial value to be had for both sides. Yeah, Happ’s not such an exciting starter, but that’s partly why we all agree the Jays need to add good pitching prospects. I’m basically just arguing that I don’t think they’d need to be our elite ones.

      • Maybe just go for Ianetta, send a pitcher plus JP to the Angels. Have a rotation at second base – Izturis and Goins. Then, they should be able to pick up that #1 pitcher.

    • I don’t see how the Jays could deal that much of their starting pitching depth a year after their most major issue was starting pitching depth. I could see AA moving one or maybe 2 of those guys in a trade, but no more than that.

  6. I ran right through the front door like a hobo sailor does
    But it was just a funeral parlor, and the man asked me who I was.

  7. This post is really similar to a post by Jays Journal a few hours ago, coincidence?

    • Yeah I totally ripped that off.

      Are you for fucking real?

      • Hmm

      • I honestly dont know, do you work with them? I was just wondering why its like the same article reworded with a few added pieces. Its pretty damn fucking similiar.

        • Once again, are you for fucking real?

          As I said off the top, it’s a pretty obvious fit featuring names that have been out there already, and were pushed out there this morning by Olney. You’re shocked that people had similar thoughts?

          • It’s ok to go Half-Stoeten raging, but never, ever, ever go Full-Stoeten raging….dangerous for your long term health.

          • All Im saying is that I felt like I was reading the same article, you touch on almost all the same points. Instead of getting your panties in a bunch, you could provide a rational reason other than Olney.

            • Oh, I’m sorry that getting baselessly accused of plagiarism is kind of a thing for me.

              For fuck sakes. Maybe think about what you’re suggesting I did here for a second.

              • Its not really baseless when Jays Journal posted almost the exact same thing, less than 4 hours ago. If it were the other way around I would certainly think Jays Journal was copying your arguments, but I would prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt.

                • Replied in wrong place.

                • It’s entirely fucking baseless. Again, think of how little goddamn sense it would make for me to do that before you shit stuff like this onto the internet please. For fuck sakes.

                  • Its not like its never happened before, not that hard to see some arguments then reword them.

                    • Shitstain, are you for fucking real? According to my WordPress dashboard this blog has 5,484 posts on it. It’s happened before? Really? Cite the case.

                      Actually don’t. Just fuck off.

                    • Theres a first for everything. The least you could have done is linked to the Jays Journal article, I find it hard to believe that you came up with almost the exact same idea within hours of each other.

                    • I didn’t read the Jays Journal piece, so I wouldn’t have known to link to it [Edit to add: I will certainly link it and point out the similarities in the Daily Duce that is upcoming this afternoon]. Saw the headline in my RSS at some point during the couple of hours of work I put into this post, but thanks for being a shitstain all the same. Hope you enjoyed commenting here.

                    • Get the fuck out of here Jeremy, you disrespectful piece of shit!

                      I got your back Stoeten.

                    • Un fucking believable.
                      Jeremy, have you not read this blog before?It’s not uncommon for different blogs to comment on the same article,especially at this slow time of the year. Tis the twitter age.
                      Stoeten has never failed to give credit or link an opposing opinion.
                      Your accusation is baseless.
                      Stoeten maybe an asshole from time to time but his opinion is his own and tends to stand by it. He doesn’t need to plagiarize.
                      He ain’t that stupid.
                      Sayin’ this from my own experience.

                • New around here Jeremy?

                  • Jeremy, that might be the dumbest thing I have ever read in this comment section. You are by far the goofiest poster of the day, good for you.
                    I been reading this blog for years, this is as original and informative as it gets. there’s obviously a rumor going around, about the Jays and Angels. So more than one writer is going to write on the topic. Common sense tells you what players could be involved. Something you lack.

              • They’re different articles, similar thoughts. Both writers are intelligent and some times this happens. Blake Murphy and I had a similar moment writing about Esmil Rogers. Shit happens… Honestly, I don’t like the trade with the Angels but you guys make some good points. I just don’t see what more Ianetta brings over JPA and Kendrick is solid but will he add wins. Bigger problem is pitching obviously.

                • Randy Knorr. . at the age of 99, in a wheel chair would be an upgrade over arencibia. I like the trade if it doesn’t involve roster players, other than arencibia.
                  You are kind of right though, but still, had enough of arencibia, time for a change, even if just a small upgrade.

    • Great minds think alike.

    • Coincidence does not equal plagarism. Especially when we are talking about an idea i.e trade with Angels for a 2B and/or C that has been floating around for months.

      I’ve read both articles and there are differences. I would never suspect plagarism.

      I do supect that Jeremy is a total douche.

      • Thank you.

        And yes, clearly Jeremy is an idiot. And plagiarism is a pretty serious charge to lay on someone who writes for a living, especially when it’s based on absolutely nothing.

        • I’ve called you a lot of shit over the years Stoeten. You have your faults but the accusation is 100% bullshit.
          I think somebody found a button to push and that’s your integrity.
          Fuck him and the fuckin horse he came in on.
          Fuckin trolls.

          • I don’t even know if he’s a troll or just literally doesn’t understand what a serious charge it is, or how absurd it would be for me to do what he’s suggesting (and think I’d get away with it!).

            Thank you for the support, by the way.

            • Jeremy’s not a troll, he contributes from time to time but he’s pushing beyond what’s neccessary.
              Attack the content if he disagrees not the methods.
              FWIW it happens all the time I’ll read the same report on different blogs.
              Enough words on this bullshit anyway,let’s change the subject.
              What’s your opinion on team chemistry?Who will replace DeRosa, as that spark in the clubhouse, to take the Jays over the top?
              LOL

  8. It would be hard pressed to find another North American sports blog as detailed, well-written, reliable, and passionate about their team as DJF.

    Truly remarkable.

  9. Dammit AA. Do something!!!!!

  10. I do hope the Jays aren’t afraid to go the extra mile in the payroll department if it’s needed. Without doing so kind of would be a waste of everything they did last winter. I still would love to see if they could move Buehrle and get rid of the $37 million they owe him for the next two years. For $37 million I think you could do a hell of a lot better than an aging league average starter.

    • Tough to replace his innings and reliability though, you have to admit that doesn’t come easily.

      • He was reliably average and that’s about it. For the kind of money he’s owed you can be pretty sure you’d get similar performance for far less allowing you to make gains with the rest of the roster elsewhere. Of course it goes without saying moving him would have to be one of a series of moves.

        • No, you can’t.

          • Agreed. People who respond to this blog undervalue reliability. Yes, he will be overpaid on a WAR or WARP basis. However, when you have a problem filling out the innings of 162 games, a guy like Buerle is a good thing to have. In this case, I say pencil him in for 200 innings and move on to your next issue.

            People like to run down the trades to get Buerle and Dickey last year. However, who would have pitched innings for the Jays in 2013? We only really had two starters take a real load – Buerle and Dickey. We would not have moved Henderson Alvarez – he would have taken 102.2 out of the 400 plus that Buerle and Dickey pitched. No way any of the prospects do it. Our record would have been much WORSE without these two guys. You trade either one without a similar asset coming back and you set us back.

            • I had no problem with the trade to get Dickey last year, in fact I was one of the strongest proponents of it. However, last winter I also advocated for moving Buehrle to the Angles for Kendrick straight up and taking a flyer on a cheaper free agent starter. There’s nothing wrong with reliability but there is something wrong with vastly overpaying for it which is what the Jays were forced to do to make the trade happen to get Johnson and Reyes last year.

              You’d have to be blind to see how that kind of money couldn’t be put to better use in filling other holes when his production is of the 3rd starter variety at best but at ace prices. I think you’re overvaluing the difference in innings between what Buehrle might accumulate and what a younger starter like Hutchinson or Stroman might log over the course of a season by a large amount. So what if you have to use another starter for a handful of those starts over the course of a year. One thing is certain is that average starters always emerge throughout the course of a season. Again it’s not about moving Buehrle in a vacuum. Other moves would obviously have to be lined up to replace his innings first. Also as reliable as Buehrle has been, there’s no guarantee he duplicates his average season of last year going forward. I think all Jays fans have seen that there’s no such thing as a sure thing and at with his price tag I think it would be prudent to downsize the risk for someone with minimal upside.

              • True. However, a contending team needs four reliable starters and a reasonable 5th, with depth available. We have two reliable starters, one who could be anywhere from a #1 to a #4 (Morrow) a number 5 (Happ) and a bunch of question marks in the #5 slot. I do not think that you will get a better pitcher than our overpaid Buerle (who appears to have figured out how to pitch in the AL East) for similar $$. Let’s not fix something that does not need fixing. If we are 20 games under 500 at the all star break, sure – let’s call this a farce and move some salary and get cheap.

  11. You would have to think if that was a deal the angels could live with it would get done but they are definitely holding out for a better offer should one develop. I would love to see Kendricks in a jays uniform and get JPA out of one and the deal would have to include salary going to LA like stoets said to make room for a starter.

  12. Definitely no to trading Stroman. He offers a mid rotation arm at league minimum. Trading him to fill a hole for next season seems like poor asset management in so far as he seems almost ready to fill a spot in the rotation for a number of years.
    I’m also excited to see Hutchison return at some point. I think he also has the chance to be a good 3-4 in the AL east. I hope we don’t give him away too freely.

  13. These are really fanciful trades. But if we could fool them with wells, we can fool them with the value of our relievers, Happ and JPA lol.

  14. Is Kendrick or Phillips preferable?

  15. Adam – Don’t you think they could get a decent top-three starter straight up for Joey “Maturity Challenged” Bats? Maybe not from the Angels but surely this is possible somewhere?

    • Fuck that “maturity challenged” nonsense please.

    • In what world does it make sense to trade Jose for a decent top three starter?

      • In a world where good, not even necessarily great, pitching is far more valuable than a position player in decline. In the last 2 years Bautista has hit .259 and .241 respectively, with under 30 homers each season, while playing in 210 of 324 games. His oWAR was 3.6 this year, down from 8.3 in his phenomenal 2011 season.

        The Red Sox hit 4 home runs in 194 at-bats, with a team avg of .211 in winning the World Series. Staff ERA was 1.84. By contrast, the Cardinals hit 13 points higher at .224 but had a staff ERA of 4.15.

        The time to trade Bautista is now and a solid top-three starter off an ML roster in exchange would make it a good move.

    • Who the fuck is Adam?

  16. Ubaldo 4/$50M
    Mark Ellis 2/$10M
    Dioner Navvaro 2/$10M

    Ubaldo and Ellis #s from Fangraphs contract crowdsourcing.

    Adds about $23M to payroll. Maybe you can get someone to eat part of Romero’s deals, and Move JP. Then you’re adding about $20 still. Keep all your prospects.

    Granted Ubaldo might go for more, or maybe 5 or 6 years.

    • might go for more lol?
      he turned down a guaranteed 14 mil to go out and get 12?
      i’m thinking he gets closer to 18/year for 5 – 6 years

      • $12 million/year for 4-5 years is a much, much better deal for Ubaldo than $14 million for one year.

        • Absolutely it is,
          however that doesn’t necessarily make it an accurate estimation of his contract.
          I think it will be closer to 18 – 20 a year,
          but i guess time will tell

          • Of course not, and I’m not suggesting he’ll only get $12 millions/year. I was just referring to your line about him settling for $12 million after turning down $14 million, as if he was taking less money.

          • You think? I dunno… I’d think that anyone willing to pay that kind of scratch is going to offer it to Garza, Santana, or Nolesco before they offer it to Ubaldo (to say nothing of setting it aside for a possible Tanaka bid).

            Of course I could see Ubaldo asking for that kind of scratch… but asking and getting are two different things.

          • I highly doubt Ubaldo gets 18-20/million per year on a contract of 4 years or more.

            That would be a gross overpay, IMO.

            it will be closer to 12 mil per on 4 years plus.

            • Salaries go up every years.. this is how it goes.
              I dont recall the last time a free agent signed a contract and I said to myself, wow, what a reasonable contract, can’t believe one of the top players went so cheap

  17. it’s funny how the rotation stunk last year and now they HAVE pitching depth???

    do we have our blinders on maybe a bit? Does Drabek, Nolin or Happ really have any value ..

    The angels current protected rotation ..
    Weaver, Wilson, Jerome Williams, Garret Richards + whoever ..

    Williams and Richards are basically the same as Happ .. Drabek or Nolin are at best next year the same as the above? Not sure how this makes the Angels any better ..

    The Jays would need to include Sanchez or Stroman to at least present a real carrot unless of course the Angels are purely trying to move salary and add low end depth

  18. I hate the concept of losing Sanchez, Nolin or Stroman.
    Losing McGuire or Drabek or Happ…yeah, I could live with. And if you take JPA in the deal, we’ll throw in Rickey Romero as a sweetener.

    • Nolin?

      • I obviously don’t know the answer to this question, but isn’t it possible we’re underestimating Nolin based on his 18 combined innings above AA? He was really, really, really good in AA for 93 innings this year, despite being a tad old for the level.

        • Yeah, but hating the concept of losing him?

          • Yeah, of course – just don’t want it to seem like he’s a ‘nothing’, I suspect he’s good a decent amount of trade value.

            • For clarity’s sake – I hate the concept of trading off what’s left of the upper layer of the Jays’ prospects. I used Nolin’s name merely as a guy who is close to making an appearance in the next while – not because I think he’s super shit-hot or anything.
              I’m feeling a little bit like Golem here – hanging on dearly to his preciousssssssss.

  19. If we’re going to get all crazy with trade speculations, how about trading Beurhle and signing both Ubaldo and Ervin? For $10-15 million more, you strengthen your rotation and add some pieces- Beurhle should be worth some good assets- albeit taking on more risk.

    • Because we’re trying to be reasonably realistic.

      • Why is it not at least reasonably realistic?

        I mean, I understand that it isn’t realistic, but then almost none of these avid-fan-trade-scenarios are.

        Would you be able to sign both Ubaldo and Ervin for something like $35 million a year combined for 4 or 5 years?

        Could you reasonably expect to be able to trade Beuhrle and receive some fairly good, cheap assets in return?

        I’m not being snarky, and trying not to be defensive; I just don’t understand why this is so extremely unreasonable.

        Hell, if I were a G.M., I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t do these moves, but I think I’d at least think about it.

    • Aaaand you don’t trade your most reliable starter.

      • Tend to agree with you, which is why I put in the greater risk clause. However, sometimes you have to give something to get something.

        If the Jays are having to deal with a cash crunch, they only have a few high end contracts that can be shed. I’ve simply been pondering other alternatives to trading Bautista to create salary space.

      • What? If a GM would be foolish enough to trade for Buehrle and his contract I do it in a second.

        • The yearly salary is a bit high, though probably not by much, esp. if contracts go up as much as some are projecting.

          But with only 2 years left, I think several teams would be happy to add him.

          • i’m sure lots of teams would love to have him. i don’t think there are many – or rather, any – that would add him unless the jays ate a pretty significant chunk of his salary, even more so if the jays expect to get anything of value in return.

  20. A rational team would want to hang on to Conger and trade Ianetta as suggested.
    But The Sciosciapath is hardly rational.
    He’s the guy who preferred Jeff Mathis to Mike Napoli,
    and he’s rumored (unsubstantiated) to be not all that high on Conger.
    AA might well be able to get Conger instead.

    As for moving any of Sanchez, Stroman or Hutchinson, put me on the “No” side.
    The first two may be cornerstones for a long time and Hutch may be valuable
    depth if the Jays have any hope of contending this year.
    The other guys, yeah, giddyup.

  21. I’d think they’d be more inclined to move Trumbo then Kendrick.

  22. After the way the Nose S trade has gone it would take a lot of balls to trade Stroman or Sanchez. Fans have no appetite for losing anymore prospects. It would he interesting to know if any other team would actually find value in Romero or Happ or Arencibia.

    • Was thinking the same thing. Seeing Syndergaard light it up this year will give everyone pause when dealing a major prospect. Though, at the same time we did give up a lot of well-regarded prospects who didn’t put it together this year.

      • It’s true, he was as well regarded in his first taste of Double-A as Kyle Drabek once was.

        • Speaking of which, what do you think we can expect out of Kyle this year anyways? (a question more appropriate for a klaw chat I suppose)

          • I guess I’m not sure what exactly we do have with him and Hutch.

            • I’m not real hopeful about Drabek because I don’t expect the command issues to be magically solved by the Tommy John, and it’s not a lot of guys who’ve come back from two TJ surgeries.

              Hutchison, though, I think could be pretty valuable!

              • Agreed on Hutchinson. I think he’s your fourth or fifth starter right now. Dickey, Morrow, Buerle, Happ, Hutchinson. Stroman waits in the wings until his Super 2 is up.

      • I’m just as concerned D’Arnaud will be as lights out as Syndergaard. I do think however that a well rested, healthy Dickey with a decent defence behind him will balance things somewhat.

  23. Whoever signs Ubaldo is going to be disappointed.
    They guy is looking for $80-$100m based largely
    on one good month pitching against The Sisters of the Poor.
    Good luck with that contract.

  24. In the TSN Radio interview, AA said the range that Rogers gives him is fluid and he has the ability to go beyond it in the “right context.”

    That makes me feel better about getting something like this done.

  25. This was somewhat alluded to above, but another option would be to sign someone like a Navarro, and focus exclusively on Kendrick. 2 of the non-Stroman/Sanchez arms for Kendrick alone may be more palatable to the Angels, and I’m not convinced it’s any less effective for the Jays.

  26. I like the idea of shooting for the fucking moon to get a number one. A David Price for instance. I like the idea of signing a Ubaldo because it’s “only” money. I dont like the idea of moving Sanchez, Stroman or Hutchison for that matter under any other scenario because I think all three can be solid to pretty fucking good.

    Sign Ubaldo and Infante, move some chips for a catcher, shed salary (JP, Janssen, Romero if humanly possible) if need be, and roll with the rest of the group.

    • Well you can’t get a David Price without giving up Stroman, Sanchez and +.

      • Maybe I wasn’t clear. If you’re getting a David Price then yah, you don’t blink at Aaron Sanchez and Marcus Stroman. Unless we’re getting a guy we can stick at the top of our rotation, i’d rather stick Stroman in the rotation now. Sanchez could be ready by midseason. Best case obviously, but still.

      • and even with those two, it would have be some pretty significant ‘+’ pieces as well.

  27. The awesome/awful thing about trade speculation with the Angels is that you can convince yourself that anything is possible…Happ, Izturis, Arencibia, Romero, Nolin for Kendrick and Iannetta…OBVIOUSLY not happening…but maybe….

  28. if the jays can move Romero and JPA in one trade. l’d take what any team is offering.

  29. and in other news …

    “The Rogers family, which controls the cable, wireless and media company that owns Canadian Business magazine and the Toronto Blue Jays, retained No. 4 spot at $7.6 billion, up 18 per cent.” (Canada’s Richest Families)

    get out the cheque book!

  30. You don’t trade Stroman. Not for Kendrick and Iannetta, anyways. Otherwise, I’ve always liked the idea of Howie Kendrick at 2b. Guy can flat out hit for average, and makes sense batting 2nd, 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th.

    What we do know is that the Angels aren’t looking for OF help, unless someone wants to help them unload Hamilton. At OF they have Trout, Bourjos, Hamilton, Calhoun, Shuck, and Trumbo. At 1B they have Pujols and CJ Cron close.

    They have a glaring need at 3B, of which we cannot help.

    SP and 3B are the positions that you have to deal to make something happen, and I’m not entirely sure the Jays have the pieces outside their coveted stud SP prospects to get something done.

    • It’s the same issue as last year, though. How do you improve if you don’t give something major up. I’m all for keeping young, controllable assets too, but what good does it do to always have enough guys like that to stay mediocre? Especially if you’re AA, who really does need to improve the 2014 roster more than anything.

      Which isn’t to say that I’d do this deal with Stroman in it, but it’s just not so simple.

    • i suspect the halos would have interest in the jays BP arms…

      i don’t really have a sense for the trade market for a guy like Kendrick. cano and infante are sitting on the FA market… Phillips is supposedly available… the tigers just filled a glaring hole at 2b… it is probably not the best time to try and deal a 2B.

      • Kendrick ought to be way more desirable than Phillips, actually. Which is kinda why my idea doesn’t quite work I wouldn’t think.

        • sure, i agree… it is just that the market seems a little overstocked with 2B right now… maybe that drives the price down a little.

  31. Not sure why some comments are being caught in our spam filter right now, but if you’re not seeing yours and you’re not an idiot, it’s not intentional. Looking into it.

    • Did the OCD troll show up?
      Curios

    • Idiotic comments? Not with this group of expert readers. Ok here’s one. Does Drew really exist or is he just Andrews alter ego.

  32. It is fun to make up scenarios… here’s mine… Jays make a splash and sign Choo (CF this year, move to LF next year and hope Gose can man CF)… Match up with the Reds to make a trade involving Colby for Homer Bailey (I’ve read CIN wants a stop-gap for BillyH and are willing to listen on Bailey)… Finally trade for Castro behind the plate and just use Goins/Izturis at 2B…

    Again, just a for-fun comment.

  33. Something about “fanciful as fuck” that made me LOL.

    But yea, there seems to be too much of a fit here for something not to happen. Maybe not the improbable combination that you’ve outlined – which is only improbable in its specificity – but certainly around this combination of players. I don’t think I’d be the least bit surprised to see Kendrick as our starting 2B and Iannetta as the starting C. And I could even see Arencibia in an Angels uniform, hanging on every word of his ex-catcher manager to try and absorb as much as possible.

    There’s something here for sure …

  34. Is there a chance Angels would take back Buerhle is any of these scenarios?

  35. I hear you…but I’m not convinced. Does anyone around the league really believe that the Jays have a lot of pitching depth? Sure they have a lot of back of the rotation starters that could throw 130 innings with a 5.0 ERA, but is that really depth?

    I’m not so sure that the Angels are targeting the Jays pitchers coming off a season where they were near the bottom of every statistical category.

    • That’s selling those guys hilariously short. Or Hutchison and Happ at the very least.

    • Buerhle + Arencibia + Nolin/Hutchinson + Cash for Kendrick + Ianetta.

      Then go get Brett Anderson

      Then sign Ubaldo and call it a day?

  36. After seeing Prince get dumped i wouldn’t be shocked for the Angles Payroll shed to be bigger than whats being talked about. I’m sure someone would take a big chunk of hamilton’s contract just to have him……… what if the deal were Kendrick and Hamilton as a package?

  37. Stoets, you should tweet the link to this post to AA!

  38. After the Devon White for Junior Felix, Kelly Gruber and Vernon Wells trades, I’m surprised the Angels are answering the phone at all.

  39. with AA comments regarding having a SS for 2b maybe we are looking in the wrong direction? most if not all AA moves were done under the radar (dickey availability was obvious and almost no brainer to see Jays involved) somehow i get the impression we are searching under the wrong tree for our treasure?

  40. After trading so many prospects. This looks like a great deal, but trade either of Stroman or Sanchez will kill me. You can trade almost anybody on the entire roster, but don’t trade these 2 guys. The absolute only exception I’d be ok with seeing either of these guys traded is if you are indeed getting a true ace.

    jays journal had an excellent write up as well on the same trade scenario. Sounds great, just don’t wanna see stroman or sanchez lost this offseason without bringing in a true ace.

  41. Happ/Nolin/Hutch/Drabek/Any bullpen pieces are valuable pitching trade chips that TO currently have.

    If these chips are used up to acquire these 2 Angel players, unless there is a FA pitcher signing to come, I just don’t c how AA can acquire that SP to replace JJ. I would hate to see Stroman/Sanchez to be included in any deal. Much rather it be Smoral/Norris/McGuire

  42. If I’m an Angels fan considering what I’d like to receive for my team’s starting 2B and C I look at the majority of Toronto’s back-end rotation “depth” as muff cabbage.

    Hutchison I think could be a good piece but has a pretty significant mark against him in recent TJ surgery. Same with Drabek but x2. Similar to Stoeten’s comment above comparing NoseSyn’s AA numbers to Drabek’s, Nolin is a complete unknown and isn’t nearly as highly regarded as a prospect as those two. No one’s dancing in the streets at the acquisition of JA Happ. Can’t see Roders or Redmond having much trade value.

    Janssen’s numbers I would like and Romero at $1-2mil per year as a reclamation project might pique my interest.

    Then again, maybe this is the situation they’re going to be faced with after their last couple offseasons FA acquisitions. Would certainly be a tough pill for their fan base to swallow if this is all they can muster in a deal.

  43. Alright folks, it’s time to simmer down on the plagiarism talk. As the editor of Jays Journal, I see no issues here. Mr. Stoeten is one of the finest bloggers in the Blue Jays blogosphere and his work here should never be questioned.

    I think someone else said it best. During this time of year, when we are looking to latch on to any story we can involving the Jays, we’re going to occasionally hit on the same item. And analytics being what they are, our points are going to occasionally come across similarly. But that’s where it ends, a similarity of two people writing great articles.

  44. Wouldn’t Janssen be a target for the angels as well?

    And having seen the projected numbers for some of the fa closers his value has to be pretty high.

  45. Want to hear my fake trade? No? Well here it is:

    Bautista, JPA, Stroman to Seattle for Hernandez and Ackley.

    • I think Hernandez could be in play for the Jays at the cost of Bautista if Seattle was able to get the latest Japanese pitcher. I wonder if that is one of the free agent moves that is holding up a Toronto deal?

      • Seattle is also rumoured to be in on FA outfielders (Beltran, Ellsbury). If those falls through Bautista could be a target. Also AA’s comments about players being possibly available that haven’t been in the media. The mind wanders…

  46. Believe it or not unlike the Brits in The top Exotic Marigold Hotel, who want to leave England I would enjoy to retire to England. I like that country!

  47. I think the worse case scenario in this proposal is this:

    Toronto : 165 million payroll, 4th place team.
    Toronto: minor leagues are not worth looking at, with Sanchez as an only option for hope.

    But otherwise, let’s take that eye-rolling story forward!!

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