santanaheavens

Can someone just SIGN ME already?!!!?!?

The words in the title of this post — which would have showed up sooner on this site had I not been out playing an embarrassingly bad round of trivia — are from Ken Rosenthal’s latest at Fox Sports. To wit:

Santana’s camp is talking with multiple teams and making progress toward a new deal for the free-agent right-hander, according to major league sources.

The Baltimore Orioles and Toronto Blue Jays are among the teams in contact with Santana’€™s agents at Proformance Baseball, sources said.

So… there’s that. However, there’s also this:

I’ve been hearing that the Jays prefer Ubaldo Jimenez anyway, so this tidbit — should it prove to actually be true — is neither surprising nor infuriating. And it at least likely means that this all will be settled soon, whichever way it goes. Maybe not quite time yet to sharpen your pitchforks, but we’re getting there…

Monday Morning Update

According to a tweet from Jim Bowden, Baltimore isn’t the team that’s “close” to a deal with Santana, either. Which, of course, doesn’t mean that they couldn’t get close sometime soon. That goes for the Jays too.

So… there’s that.

Comments (178)

  1. Would anyone really be upset if Ervin Santana is not a Jay next year? They need a pitcher, sure, but i don’t think I could really get excited about Santana in a Jays uniform.

    • I guess it depends on the contract he ends up with. If you get a bargain, the depth would be welcome.

      Otherwise I wouldn’t mind taking a pass on him and seeing how the in house options do.

      • Yeah exactly, you’d have to be pretty confident about getting innings out of a rotation of Dickey, Buerhle and Santana. For 3/$36mill or something similar, you’d take him for sure.

    • I’ve never really wanted Santana. Not exactly difficult to see him allowing 30+ HR a season as a Jay.

  2. With his HR rates, I hope the Orioles sign him.

  3. finally….something. Every time I go on DJF, I’m expecting some sort of a resolution being hinted at. Hopefully things will come to a conclusion that benefits us. Has there been a consensus on who’d be a better fit. I’ve flip flopped all winter…

    • I have too.

    • I’ve wanted Jimenez from day one.

      I thought originally he was going to get the second biggest contract behind tanaka. At this point though Santana and Jimenez will prob get 3 year deals max.

      Wherever they go, it’s going to be a decent bargain. Or atleast, it could have been worse

  4. Snding soon would be good.

    And now I’m REALLY starting to wonder who Wilner’s sources are.

  5. Because the Jays are focused on Burnett?

    Fingers crossed!

  6. I don’t have much faith in Wilner’s “sources”. He has a pretty bad record when it comes to this kind of stuff. I would just like Santana and Ubaldo to sign so all this speculating can finally come to an end.

    • Just out of curiosity; what has Wilner flubbed on?

    • I think he has a bad record when he says stuff unequivocally without sources — i.e. no chance Farrell leaves — but when he says he actually has sources on something, I tend to buy it. The Bakers shit sure was weird, yes, but I do buy someone was telling him that — not that I necessarily buy that it was the truth.

    • He’s in an interesting position considering his ties to the Jays, so to me, i doubt he would be tweeting sketchy stuff.

      As for sources panning out, i am surprised some wit out there hasnt started a web site tracking the accuracy rate of the mlb reporters sources. Might have an interesting effect down the road on what people report if it became followed enough.

  7. I’ve had a feeling its Jiminez if its either for the Jays. I really don’t think AA wants another home run prone pitcher in the rotation.

  8. If the Jays end up with either Santana or Jimenez, I’ll be curious to see if they’d be willing to lose their 3rd round pick to sign Morales (and flip Lind to a team like Pittsburgh or Milwaukee).

    • As long as we all know that Adam Lind is going to win the NL MVP the year after we trade him

    • I’d think at that point they would look at Drew over morales.

    • I’d be curious to see what they would get from those teams. I cant see Pittsburgh trading Walker for a platoon bat. As for the Jays point of view why not just sign Drew instead if you are giving up a third round pick? He actually fills a hole that the Jays have and will have for the next couple of years. Morales does none of that. Dont get me wrong, i think Morales would be a better fit overall than Lind but not when there are other holes that need to be filled first.

  9. “Maybe not quite time yet to sharpen your pitchforks”

    It’s always time to sharpen the pitchforks… leaves more time for torch lightin’ and all the stabbin’.

  10. I would gladly accept Ervin going to Baltimore if it means the Jays are going for Ubaldo.

    • Would still prefer he doesn’t go to someone else in the division. Competition is steep enough.

  11. Jimenez and one of the Seattle 2b. They can’t keep Ackley and Franklin right?

    • Ackley can play CF

    • I think i read somewhere they might send Franklin down and keep him as insurance until the deadline. The more i read about him the more i think of Kelly Johnson. That wouldn’t be a bad thing if you could guarantee the good version shows up.

      • I’m a huge Franklin fan. Top prospect that’s hit at every level of the minors, just 23. ZIPS And Steamer have him pegged for 3.2/3.1 WAR for this season respectively.

      • Johnson was not so great last year, either. Maybe you’re selectively remembering him facing Blue Jays pitching.

  12. Jays have bid on Suk-Min Yoon according to Davidi. A new wrinkle to the free agent pitching end game?

  13. actually, the story is by Stephen Loung on Sportsnet, not Davidi:

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/report-blue-jays-targeting-korean-rhp-yoon/

    • Reading that makes me think why bother? You’ve got that in Hutchison and Drabek already or even some veteran FA’s coming off of injuries. It is interesting that that the Sox are interested though so maybe there is something to him.

      • Agree. What’s the point? The scouting reports are minimal but where Boras has his FB at 91-92 the Cubs scouting report has it at 90-91. So not an overpowering FB. He has a curve slider and change but apparently they only work when he’s not injured or ” on” (as opposed to “not-on”) so…..what’s the point??
        I’m getting the feeling that if they’re looking at this guy it has to be a decoy for the Ubaldo camp who the Jays feel is asking way too much.

  14. and Loung was sourcing Cafardo, as you say

  15. I’d prefer he narrative of the Jays going into the 2014 championship season with a chip on their shoulder.

    Guys who have been hurt, staying healthy and performing well.

    Underachievers achieving.

    Guys coming from out of nowhere to really help the team.

    At the end of the day, despite anyones refusal to accept it, baseball IS a narrative game, one which grew to great nights in the era of radio within the context of story telling. That’s what I want this year.

    This org has plenty of talent.

    I don’t want the Jays to sign or trade for anyone.

  16. The argument for standing pat….

    So if AA ends up passing on the two final suspects how crazy do you guys go?
    I argued a few weeks ago that both have shitty enough resumes that it might not be a bad idea to spend half the cash to get Morales and just try to outscore everyone. (Lind as bench bat)

    We were 9th of 30 in runs scored in 2013 while missing Bautista, Melky, and Lawrie for extended periods. We also got nothing from C and 2B.

    You tack on what they can produce, an uptick for Dickey and 3/4′s of a full season of Morrow and we are looking good. Subtract Johnsons implosions every 5th day when he was healthy, subtract an open strike attracting vortex that is JPA, subtract the adjustment period of new teammates, new turf, new league, new coach, pressure of being a world series favorite, and I think you see big improvements in this team.

    Call me blind, call me hopeful, but I really think this is a playoff team.

    If we can still add a cheapish Ubaldo for depth then all the better, if not I still like our chances.

    • With our current “rotation” there is no way we compete. Look at TB, Boston and even NYY improved with tanaka since CC should bounce back some.

      You simply can’t count on Morrow for anything and we have HUGE question marks at 4 and 5 spots.

      We have to sign or trade for at least a mid rotation guy.

      • Why should Sabathia bounce back? He’s got a lot of miles on that arm, is a big boy, and is 34 this year. He’s also seen a downward trend in velocity and has had injury problems creep up the last couple years.
        And yet there’s no hope for Morrow, Dickey et al.

        • CC has been one of the most consistently goods starters in baseball the last what, 7 years? I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.

          And if you re-read my post, I didn’t include Dickey in my rotation despair. Him and Buerhle are all we can really count on, in fact.

          • There are plenty of guys to give the Jays pretty average innings, at this point. The thing originally said about Morales is kind of silly — waste of Lind to have him as a bench bat, not very realistic to think they sign Morales and deal Lind, given the cheap contract he’s on. But the pitching isn’t nearly in the kind of shape you’re making it out as, nor is the rest of the division as great as you are. They’re better, yes — well, not the Orioles, but the others — but the Lackeys, Dempsters, Novas, Phelpses, and Odorizzis of the world don’t exactly do much for me.

            • I disagree on CC. Some have argued that his weight loss in 2011/12 and 2012/13 off seasons were the reason for the drop in velocity/increased hr and decreased k/9.

              http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/sports/baseball/for-yankees-sabathia-it-appears-less-weight-is-less-success.html

              And it looks like he has lost more weight this off season. For him I personally think it will result in a healthier post baseball lifestyle and longer baseball career. But I am not sure if his stuff is still enough to be relied on to start game 1 of a postseason game.

            • I hear you, my point is simply when you look at recent playoff teams, their rotations look a hell of a lot better than ours does now, particularly TB. AA has also been consistent in his message that starting pitching is the most important offseason need.

              Anyway, the offseason ain’t over yet so fingers crossed.

      • If we are just going to crown the team with the best rotation then Boston would’ve been a non-factor last year. Much more to baseball than having the best team on paper.

        I think the Jays can compete this year. It’ll take a bunch of players over-performing, but that goes for most playoff teams.

    • I agree to the broader point that the Jays should be better this season because there are a good number of guys who should be better than they were last year based on longer samples of their play (Dickey, Bautista, Lawrie, Melky etc.) but I’m hesitant to full on endorse this idea for the simple fact that to actually improve the club substantially the people replacing the “black holes” in the lineup will need to be better. If you’re simply replacing Johnson with spot starters like we saw last season for example – then the Jays are still in trouble. Its fine to suggest we have back end rotation depth, but you’re counting on more than one of them to step up if the Jays don’t have a free agent starter of quality to plug in. They need to get legit innings from the replacements to be significantly better – which is what I think we’re pulling for.

  17. I’d prefer Santana based on consistency. Ubaldo may have a bit higher upside but he’s also more likely to throw in a real clunker. And we had our fair share of inconsistency / injury (thanks Morrow and JJ)’last year.

    Anyway at this point lets just get someone.

  18. Clock is ticking AA hope you get soone or your time as gm may run out

  19. Still hope we can somehow get Jimenez + Burnett + Drew

    • Good luck with that.

    • Obviously, because this is MLB 2K13, and all you have to do is pick which players you want, and keep upping your offer until it says “Congratulations! You’ve signed (insert player here) for (insert dollars here) over (insert number of years here)!”

      • Oh, I never said it was likely. I’d be shocked if we got two of those three. Actually the way things are going I’d be at least mildly surprised if we even got one of them. It’s what I *hope* would happen. If Rogers is committed to winning with this team, players like that would certainly help.

        • I hear you. Experiencing an off-season like Yankees fans get to enjoy every four or five years was awesome last year.

      • I’m sorry arissons but that is a tired reply at this point. We’re all just bs’ing here. We all know it. We all know there are more moving parts than can ever be predicted.

        Let us dream in peace. And note that all these protected pick guys could end up having great trade value. It’s a potential win-win where they help us and we then cash them in for solid prospects that you would be happy to draft anyway.

  20. I would say this will be a really good test to see where and how AA will be dealing with free agents. Normally the names are too big and the years and earnings are follow suite in being too large. Now we have a crop of free agent pitchers who will not need too many years / dollars I think it will be very discouraging if we don’t score one as that leaves what kind of FA’s for the Blue Jays the real good ones who don’t cost much??? It seems like these FA’s are right in our wheel house cheaper ones who have some upside but also carry a lot of risk. In MLB you take on risk no matter what, you pay people who are extremely proven a lot of money and hope they can achieve what they have in the past ( something that rarely works out) OR you pay people with poorer past performance less money in the hopes they’re best performance in ahead of them. I feel like the latter is more our style of free agent and in reality these mistakes will cost us alot less. As for who do we sign Santana or Jiminez. I’m guessing they seem soooo close that we take the cheapest one :)

  21. ALSO why don’t we just offer AJ 20 million to play for us 1 year. Does he take that? Is that a terrible deal?

    • He wants to be close to home.

      • Yeah; I see the Nationals grabbing him. He would certainly round out their rotation nicely.

      • From the sounds of things he wants to stay in the NL and may have a bad taste in his mouth left from the AL East too. I bet he stays in Pittsburgh in the end, though the Nationals make a lot of sense. Would be kind of sad if the old Expos wound up with Fister and Burnett and basically had our dream offseason.

        • He might also have a bad taste in his mouth from getting booed every single time he pitched in Toronto from 2009-11. As much as I’d love to see the Jays keep the draft pick and land Burnett instead of Jimenez or Santana, I don’t think there’s any remote chance of it happening.

    • +1 Provided AJ’s interested in that, I’m all for it. There is no such thing as a bad 1 year contract.

    • That would be a fine deal for us. If $20M is significantly more than Pittsburgh or whoever offers then he might come here I guess.

      • You can throw in an Aeroplan points card and give him permission for a few 3 day breaks between rotation spots every now and then.

        Would that be an issue of contention for any?

  22. Waiting, waiting, waiting…. for nothing to happen. It’s obvious.

  23. Thing is, if Santana were to go off the board, then all of a sudden you’re left with Jimenez and nothing else. Some leverage is lost if he is the last man standing and the Jays still need a starter.

    • I know there are questions about where he would be willing to sign, but Burnett doesn’t exactly qualify as “nothing”.

  24. I see some folks basically giving up, saying that they’d be fine with the rotation status quo?
    This team had the worst starting pitching last year, you cannot gamble on guys that have let you down in the past either. Sure it’s POSSIBLE the Jays may end up ok with their current starters but we the fans should expect more than that. Not signing Jimenez or Santana just means the Jays are operating on the cheap or the “policy” is back and this time it’s even more restrictive.

    • Absolute nonsense. You’re gambling no matter what. I do think they ought to gamble on one of these guys, but the idea that “you cannot gamble on guys that have let you down in the past” is complete horseshit. So the Red Sox couldn’t have gambled on bounce backs from bad seasons by Lackey, Lester, Buchholz, etc.? The name of the game is putting together a rotation of guys who give you the best chance right now to get big league hitters out.

      The policy thing at the end there is just silly.

      • Andrew, this team hasn’t made the playoffs in 20 years…. they haven’t signed a meaningful free agent in 8.

        So yes you could gamble on Morrow making a comeback and making more starts, Buehrle replicating last season, Dickey having a better start i 2014 v 2013.. But where are you after that? You’re gambling on some pretty weak odds with the rest of the rotation hopefuls.

        It is prudent for AA to sign Santana or Jimenez to give the Jays a chance to get big league hitters out. Or would you rather have Draebek, who was barely good enough when he was healthy or Hutchinson whose sample size is tiny.

        • Those first things have zero to do with those second things.

          Again, I do think they should get one of these guys. Doesn’t make what you’re saying not nonsense.

          • How is what I’m saying nonsense??

            Just because “everything” went wrong for the Jays last year relative to pitching doesn’t mean it will go right this year. And the points I made about missing the playoffs and free agents play largely into this Andrew.

            • HJ, you said: “Just because “everything” went wrong for the Jays last year relative to pitching doesn’t mean it will go right this year. ”

              It doesn’t mean it will all go wrong, either. We’re allowed to use our heads and think about this stuff.

              The fact that the Jays have not made the playoffs in years means absolutely nothing with respect to how they ought to approach their rotation this year. Absolutely nothing.

              • Andrew, adding Santana or Jimenez makes the Jays a better team wouldn’t you agree?

                So now lets look at the issue of no playoffs for 20 years… Lets assume that a decent percentage of your readers and Jays fans alike have no clue what post season ball is. these people are supporting the team now but eventually may get fed up.

                Now to get around that hurdle just means a team with deeeeeeeeep pockets has to spend a bit of money to get a player to make the team better at a position of great weakness.

                Do you see my point a little more clearly now?

                • 20 years without the playoffs is still irrelevant. It has nothing to do with AA, Rogers, or the current roster. You can blame them for the last 3-5 years, I suppose, but going out and getting one of these two guys doesn’t erase the past, and certainly doesn’t guarantee success going forward.

                • Again, the lack of playoffs has absolutely nothing to do with anything here. Nothing.

                  • Andrew we could go around in circles and be drunk and sober 3 times over and not agree on this. You’re not seeing things through a fans eyes.

                    • I absolutely am seeing this through a fan’s eyes. And I’m seeing that you are talking about two wholly different things. The fact that a team hasn’t made the playoffs in however long, while frustrating and concerning, is not something that should be factored into these sorts of decisions at all. It is entirely irrelevant. The object is to put the best team on the field, whether they’ve made the playoffs once in twenty years, or twenty times.

                • Your point is that:
                  (1) The Jays have not made the postseason for 20 years.
                  (2) Spending lots of money will deterministically make the Jays make the playoffs this year.
                  (3) Most fans will stop caring if the Jays do not make the postseason this year.
                  In other posts in this thread, you postulated that
                  (4) Because of (1), the Blue Jays ought to abandon any sense or reason and just spend willy-nilly on whoever sounds like a good idea to you.
                  (1) is true, (2) and (4) are horseshit, and (3) is not something you or I know.

        • “…Buehrle replicating last season”

          Yes, because if there is one thing that Mark Buehrle isn’t known for, it’s consistency.

          • Oh of course he’s going to have the same numbers year in and year out until he retires right?

            • Who knows when he’ll retire? And he’s 34 not 54. And for the last 13 consecutive years of his 14 year career he’s posted 200 + innings. If I’m betting on this upcoming season alone, I’d say there’s all kinds of evidence he’ll do it again.

        • Last year, the Buffalo Bisons started the season Justin Germano, Claudio Vargas, Ramon Ortiz and some dudes named Tyson Brummett and Casey Lawrence in their rotation. This year, it looks like they’ll open the season with Drew Hutchison, Kyle Drabek, Sean Nolin and Marcus Stroman.

          Obviously Santana or Jimenez makes the Jays a better team, but I feel like things would have been a lot better last year if the team had Drabek and/or Hutchison to fall back on when injuries hit Johnson, Morrow and Happ (all at the same time), instead of turning to Ricky Romero, Aaron Laffey, Germano, Ortiz and Chien-Ming Wang before Esmil Rogers and Todd Redmond came along and stopped the bleeding a little bit. Even if they don’t make a big splash, this team already has much better pitching depth than they had a year ago.

      • God, I’m so fucking sick of hearing about the Red Sox and how they stood pat with their pitching and won it all.

        Holy fuck. It worked out for one team. One time. Can we stop pretending like that makes it a model to be replicated?

        • But they did. And its an appropriate comparison because the nature of that team’s turnaround is so appropriate to the Jays case this season. They need health and career average performances to turn it around which is exactly what happened in Boston.

        • The whole point is that players who have history of being good don’t suddenly turn shitty after a single year of underperformance. Especially since Dickey and Buehrle turned the corner in a big way for the second half last year.

          I’m for the Jays signing Ubaldo since he has great upside, but let’s not pretend the arms on the FA market right now are anything spectacular. Given their recent history, there’s a pretty damn good chance that Jimenez or Santana in the AL East will end up producing the same numbers as Hutchison, Redmond and co., except those guys are being paid league minimum.

        • Who’s replicating a model? We have a hole to fill in the rotation and are always looking to upgrade talent. That’s the model. Regardless, you cannot dismiss the fact that we were an odds on favourite to be playing October baseball in 2013 and beyond. Shit happens. welcome to baseball..

        • Get a grip, trenches. A commenter said that you can’t gamble on guys who have let you down in the past. The Red Sox 2013 example says, yes, you absolutely can. Nobody’s saying it’s a model to be followed, except in that you use your head and put together a staff with the best chance of getting hitters out.

          • It was a reaction to the wave of similar sentiments I’ve seen here and in many other places. So don’t take it personally or even as a direct response to that particular comment.

            Of course players can rebound. But it’s naive to think that the Jays are OK at SP and point to the Red Sox to illustrate how it can all work out.

            Of course it can all work out. But it rarely does. As you said in a previous comment, “Talent, please.”

            • 20 years of not making the playoffs is entirely relevant to us fans because this is the same old tired story of the team being close to contention but not doing enough to be serious contenders against the power house Yankees and Red Sox. We had four glaring holes starting the off season – catcher, second base, bench and SP. We struck out on landing the elite catcher and 2B in the FA market then struck out getting the mid tier guys while getting a low tier catcher and decent looking backup C. There have been no quality bench pickups. Now we have a chance to land one or two mid rotation starters who will help the team be closer to contention but still below the Yanks and Red Sox not to mention Rays.

              Fully expect fans here to justify why none of these additions happened and how this team could do well etc. At the end of the day we are still a mediocre team that looks unlikely to make the playoffs and the best case scenario for the offseason which is nearly over is signing 2 mid rotation SP which wont change that even if we land both. To boot the fans have been fed PR from the front office who is not delivering on promises.

              Posters I believe are right the in house options for SP arent so horrible. If not upgrading there then why is Goins the starting 2B and Navarro the C if the owners are willing to put more money into the team? Revenue gains and fan base increase from last year could be short lived if the team doesn’t perform and we could see payroll go back down and more years of mediocrity. It wasnt such a tough pill to swallow the last few years when the Jays were in rebuilding mode building farm system waiting for the time to be contenders. Now last year was the first attempt, the farm is ranked 24, the players are on the decline and there have been no upgrades to make the team legitimate contenders. It doesnt make sense to pull the trigger on the deals last year, tank, then have Goins and Navarro as starting players the next year.

              • Just saying they’re not relevant in the context of this discussion. Of course fan concerns are relevant.

    • The policy? Really? Even if it was a real thing, the policy is used to limit the length of contracts to five years or less. None of the pitchers currently available are going to get that many years. So how does the policy come into play here?

      What’s the point in making stuff up just to get yourself pissed off?

  25. hopefully santana signs elsewhere providing a benchmark value for the jays to go after ubaldo. aa has often referenced k-rates and ability to miss bats as providing potential upside in pitchers. also as df has shown it seems like ubaldo’s struggles a couple of years ago were clearly mechanically related and therefore fixable, which he apparently did last year.

    do it aa!

  26. I still prefer Santana over Jiminez, so… bleh. But whatever, I don’t know shit.

  27. I find it fascinating how split jays fans are on Santana.. I would guess front offices feel the same way and thats why he hasn’t received any serious offers to this point….

    Personally I don’t think he’s that much better than Paul Maholm..

    If we are just looking for an innings eater who can hold the spot until Sanchez/Hutch/Drabek/Stroman/Nolin are ready, then wouldn’t it be better to have an innings eater on a one year contract…

    I am certain I would rather this team have Stephen Drew + Paul Maholm then Ervin Santana….

    A part of me is still hopeful that Ricky can find his groove back….

  28. Ricky eh. If we’re hoping on that we could be in trouble. Although I’m one of the group thinking Dustin McGowan could be a key guy this year so what do I know.

    • Dusty hasn’t forgotten how to pitch like Ricky has, though. He actually looked pretty decent last year.

  29. @Jim_Duquette 3m

    Two teams involved w Santana and Jimenez negotiations were told the price tag for them is now closer to 3-4 years and AAV of approx 14.1 per

  30. Why do so many people on these threads lack basic reading comprehension skills?

  31. We need to sign two of these remaining pitchers. Every year we seem to have all this “depth” and every year we find out it’s not as deep as we think.

    Is Happ really all healed and better? And Morrow? The guys who had TJ… what assurance do we have that they can really pitch? Neither was that successful before. If 2 free agents pitchers is more than enough then we are in the playoffs and it doesn’t matter.

    Note: I like our depth guys and I like Morrow and have hope for all of them. But I’m trying to be realistic here.

    Also, even if we trade both of them next year, it’s probably a great way to cash in on the protected pick. If we have solid reliable pitchers signed for another 2-3 years at a very discounted rate and with no more draft pick attached to them, we surely could get a good return in trade.

    • We do not have to sign two, don’t be ridiculous. And the other side of that coin is that it’s hardly an assured playoff spot if they do.

      No team can insulate themselves from injury and underperformance the way you seem to be expecting the Jays to. And you’re forgetting the massive risks that Santana and Jimenez present themselves. The team has good depth as is. However, it would be dumb of the Jays to not make use of this position — the draft pick and the leverage and the need they have — to not get one of these guys, but there are a lot of guys they have who certainly can succeed and cost a fraction of what the free agents will, even at their deeply discounted rate.

      • Dumb may be too strong a word to describe the situation.It depends on how much AA values the available talent and how that talent will perform this year and into the future.The real unknown is whether the team,as currently constructed, is a contender or a pretender.

      • Well I would actually welcome a piece covering that depth. To me we have Happ, who we sort of wish wasn’t a regular in the rotation and who really could still have effects of his terrible injury. Then we have two TJ guys that showed some major league abilities but never really got establish – and again are now coming off TJ. Then we have “major league ready” (sort of) guys like Stroman, but who actually have no major league experience. And Romero who is not even mentioned anymore. And Morrow who I understand is not the broken wing people make him out to be but he is not a sure thing healthwise – just to be fair and blunt.

        You may be right that I am overvaluing these guys. I haven’t followed them particularly. The talk of 9 figure contracts probably makes them better in my head. So now I see them being brutally punished by the CBA arrangement and wonder if that isn’t an inefficiency to profit off. We sign them and keep one and trade one (or another pitcher) getting back the prospect potential we lose and really having a lot of depth until such time.

        • Their trade value depends on whether they actually perform in 2014. There’s a very real chance that they don’t.

          • There’s that, and there’s also the fact that I think we’re magnifying the warts on pitchers we have, and minimizing them on pitchers we want. Going to post about this sooner or later.

            Which isn’t to say that I don’t think the Jays should be after a free agent here — they have a chance to have a potentially very valuable asset fall into their laps which I don’t think there’s any excuse for not grabbing — but it’s not entirely unfair to think about the pitchers they have without some of the overblown concerns.

  32. I am more or less indifferent to if they sign someone or not. If yes, cool, let’s talk about the new guy! If not, let’s see how the battle shapes out for the last spot, since they’ve got about a half dozen decent options!
    Let’s get spring training started! Go Jays!

    • I used to think this way and a lot of Jays fans get caught in this sort of apathy. See we’re in a situation where we’re missing baseball and can’t wait for the sprint to start, to get signify the end of this cold shitty winter… But we are also conditioned to expect the Jays not to make the playoffs so we’re kinda ho hum about signing a meaningful FA or Rogers actually using their financial power.

      I think we should demand more from our team guys.

      • The only power you have to ‘demand’ anything is to stop going to games. Other than that “demanding” doesn’t really do anything.
        So… I guess you can do that if you want.

      • I don’t think you quite grasp how bad Santana or Jimenez could potentially be.

        • Or how equally effective Redmond, McGowan or Happ can be, for a fraction of the cost.

          • LOL…. Happ and Redmond…. Wow, just wow.

            Santana and Jimenez are risks but I’d rather take the risk then rely on the 2 aforementioned stiffs.

            • The LOL here would be better appreciated if you had a clue what you’re talking about.

              Happ was more valuable than both Santana and Jimenez in 2012. His 2013 was more valuable than either of their 2012 seasons. Same with Redmond’s 2013.

              • Stoeten,you’re almost making an argument to sign neither FA and stick with the status quo.

              • Sorry, I tend to look at a body of work and not just 1 season. Happ and Redmond are depth pitchers and nothing more, No ‘true’ contender pencils these guys into their rotation.

                • Birdie,you’re wrong.
                  Looks at the stats of the 4/5 pitchers of contending teams.
                  You’d be surprised how mediocre they are.

                  • The top end of this rotation ain’t so shit hot that it can rely on Redmond and Happ.. This is one of the WORST rotations in 2013…

                    • Nice try Birdie.
                      You were questioning Redmond and Happ, not the top of the rotation.
                      If you’re making a point,stick with it when you comment on a rebuttal.

                • There are often true contenders with worse pitchers than Happ. Happ would be a solid #5.

                  You’re picking and choosing what you want to see in a pitcher’s “body of work”. Happ has never been remotely close to as bad as Santana was in 2012. It’s not as cut and dried as you want to believe.

                  • A stronger 1/2/3 starter would allow the Jays to have Happ in there at 4 or 5… but the Jays can’t change their 1-3.. so you’re best bet is an upgrade at 4/5.

                    Fuck you guys love mediocrity or what?

                    • Ervin Santana is the epitome of mediocrity.

                    • He does have a no-hitter on his resume

                    • Nobody likes medocrity, Birdie, it’s just that they aren’t going to agree with piss poor arguments, or ones you feel you have to shift once you see that you’ve overreached to continue feeling like you’re “right,” instead of just acknowledging that the first statement — the one that you’re being called on — was ridiculous. Not that this has happened multiple times here or anything.

                    • In what world do you live in that Happ is not a 5th? We were decimated by injuries over the past couple of seasons and that is the only reason one would consider Happ a 3/4th. However based on the roster as it is now he is a 4/5. I would easily pencil in morrow dickey buerhle ahead of Happ. shoot i would even consider penciling Hutch ahead of him. However Happ is not as bad as you make him out to be. His biggest issue last year seems to be foul balls in two strike counts. Maybe if he had better D behind in he would feel more comfortable challenging players to put the ball in play (queue Goins and Navarro which are + upgrades over Boni and JPA)

        • “I don’t think you quite grasp how bad Santana or Jimenez could potentially be.”

          This may be an issue. As I said, talk of 9 figure contracts plus seeing their names on mlbtr every week plus them getting QO’s makes them seem pretty well respected as pitching options go.

      • Well, it’s definitely true that I am conditioned to the Jays not making the playoffs, but truth be told, I have still enjoyed the “story” of the past 20 years. I actually associate baseball with Jerry Howarth, so the players, while they do matter to me, are secondary to the simply great experience of listening (or watching) a game. I guess, as Jerry Seinfeld said, I cheer for laundry, but in the end, I recognize it as laundry and just try to enjoy the show.
        It’s a bit weird, but the longer the Jays don’t make the playoffs, the sweeter the ride will be when they do (assuming I don’t die before then).

        • I’m with you on enjoying the story in years past and enjoying the ups and downs of the team.

          But there are some very good players on this team right now, there is a real renewed interest in the Jays also.. anyone that lives in the city or spends time around the dome on game days will tell you this.

          Rogers needs to capitalize on this, spend foolishly for a couple years it won’t kill you.

          • Yes, occasionally I fear that if the Jays don’t make the playoffs soon, then interest in the team in Toronto will “disappear” forever, and eventually, the team could be transplanted.
            Quite irrational, I know, but then again, many, many fans of Blue Jays baseball are just bandwagon jumpers, unlike the Leafs fans.

          • I know this has been mentioned ad nauseum, but they did raise the payroll by almost 40 million last year. That is no insignificant sum of money. Just because it didn’t work out in 2013 doesn’t mean 2014 is also destined for failure.

            • Or destined for success

              • Very true. But I’m just happy to sit back and enjoy the ride for now. The Jays have some damn good baseball players.

                • @ bob
                  Yup.
                  One SP won’t make a difference IF there are injuries and down years,like last year.That said there are a lot of players that make this team exciting to watch.

                  • HJ Birdie’s point is pretty accurate actually, I’m not sure why so many people are struggling to understand. The back end of this rotation needs to be upgraded because the top half doesn’t look strong enough. Happ is an acceptable #5 starter on many teams. He isn’t on this team, unless you want to see Happ trotting out there every 5th day to throw 95 pitches in 4 painful innings, destroying the bullpen. I don’t want to see it. It’s not good enough for this team to make the playoffs, based on the top of their rotation,

                    • That wasn’t his point, though. His point was some halfbaked horseshit about how not making the postseason for 20 years means you have to panic and make random moves so that he thinks you look like you’re doing something.

  33. If Santana is getting ancy with a week to go before pitchers and catchers report, doesn’t it make strategic sense for his “camp” to float out a rumour that Santana is about to sign, just to try to get would-be suitors off of the fence they have been sitting on all off-season?

    Whether it is true, sort of true, or not remotely true, it seems strategic more than anything, which is why I’m not getting my knickers in a knot over whether the Blue Jays are “in” on Santana at this very moment. Shit chages day to day.

    • I’d tend to agree with this.

    • Could also say it’s in the Jays interest to float out the rumour that they aren’t in on Santana, or “driving” the progress.

      Fun game, ain’t it?

      • Actually I posted on that closer to the top of the page. It would serve the Jays perfectly to leak that they were in on the (less than mediocre) Korean to elicit the intentions of both Santana’s and Jimenez camps.

        Smoke and mirrors.

  34. Santana has pitched well in the dome last few years. Increased GB%, getting better feel for split finger, consistent (fairly), still tosses 92mph+, buddies with EE and Jose… sign him, drew, morales, trade Lind and Happ for A ball prospects to offset the two lost picks. Bam! Go Jays!

    • His number in Toronto have been great, but I don’t think five starts spread out over the last four years is really enough to think it’s some kind of trend.

      • Duly agreed – I just think people like to look at numbers and assume he will be X because of this meanwhile (albeit small sample) he has pitched well here in the past. Some players just perform better in some parks then others with little rhyme or reason to it. It is possible this is the case for him and the dome. Same with MB and last year, there was droves of people stating how he will be smashed in ALE, big mistake etc. but MB (sure he had some rough patches) went out and did what MB does. 200 innings 4 era . Honestly I just want to see our pitchers go 6/7 innings on a regular and that will make a world of difference for the whole team.

        As for something else you wrote. Happ is really not a bad option 4/5. If only he could reduce his innings per pitch he would be more appealing so to say….

  35. “I don’t think you quite grasp how bad Santana or Jimenez could potentially be.”

    Bingo! Jiminez’s good 2013 followed an absolutely horrible 2012 when he posted a 5.40 ERA and a mediocre 2011. He’s seeking his one chance at an ridiculous overpay contract.

    Santana would be a gopher ball machine in the RC.

    Pass.

  36. This underlines what we’re dealing with here. Davidi says yesterday that Jays aren’t in on Santana and Dierkes says today that there’re 4 teams still in AND one of those teams is…
    Dun

    Dun

    DUN!!!

    The Jays (as of 20 or so minutes ago)

    timdierkes ‏@timdierkes ·16m
    @BradShapiroKC Pretty sure Orioles, Jays still in.

    • Davidi didn’t say they weren’t in, he said they weren’t close. Gotta parse carefully with this stuff.

  37. @ Philbert

    So basically in your mind Happ=Santana, is that right? So when Happ becomes a FA he’ll be looking at a 45 million dollar contract?
    Hogwash.

    • I didn’t say that. Happ is a slightly below average pitcher making $5.2 million in 2014. Santana is a slightly above average pitcher set to make about triple Happ’s salary in 2014 on a multi-year contract. The difference in the calibre of the pitcher is significantly overblown by the commitment the team would have to make.

      It’s easy to overlook that when all you really want is for the team to spend more money.

      • Also must figure in the loss of the draft pick. So really the discussion should be:

        Happ @ $5.2M + 2nd Round Draft Pick = Santana at $15M

        Honestly, I’d take Happ and the draft pick.

      • @ Philbert

        “It’s easy to overlook that when all you really want is for the team to spend more money”

        I think more to the point is all we really want is for the team to win and Santana instead of Happ gives the team a better chance to win.

        • I feel like I’ve looked at the stats a thousand times this offseason, but I have a lot of concerns about Santana, and I’m pretty high on Jimenez. I would give up the pick and spend the money for Jimenez (or just the money for Burnett), but I don’t think I would pay the asking price for Santana.

          I want the team to win as much as anyone. I just don’t think Santana pushes them particularly far towards that end. He could, of course, but his inconsistency terrifies me. I like what he provided last year and he’s had a couple very good season. I don’t like that he was hands down the worst pitcher in Major League Baseball in a season where he had Ricky Romero as competition for that spot.

  38. While it may not apply to Santana or Jimenez who will likely sign for less than 5 years, the “policy” is in full effect for the Jay regardless of what people like Stoeten might say.

    At the SOTF I asked Beeston about the 5 year policy and how AA has stated that on a case by case basis they would be willing to go beyond 5 years. He then stopped me in my tracks and said “forget about what Alex says – as long as I am here we will never go beyond 5 years.” So choose to believe what you like, but a max 5 year term is is going to dictate every contract the Jays offer with Beeston at the helm.

  39. Sign em both! Why the hell not. Then you can market Buehrle (or Dickey…or one of Santana/Jimenez) as deadline trade bait. DOOO EEEEEET

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