The budgetary issues that were supposed to keep the Atlanta Braves out of the final sprint for Ervin Santana may be a thing of the past, as last night Jim Bowden laid this on us:

A team owned by a publicly traded company that actually wants to win? Amazing. (And speaking of, on his show on the Fan 590 yesterday, Jeff Blair opined that he’s “not entirely certain MLB would approve another publicly traded company buying a franchise.” Hmmm. I wonder if the Jays’ experience subsidizing pointless excess Sportsnet channels with cheap content under Rogers’ corporate boot-heel might illustrate anything about all that.)

Update: It’s official now, Santana to the Braves.

Should this force me to change the screed any?  Since the Braves weren’t an option until very, very recently, and the Jays sat on their hands all winter, I’m going to say no. Smart decision on Ervin’s part, though, to go to a good NL team with a sudden need and a run environment that will look a whole lot better to whichever prospective employers next year don’t bother to pay attention to park and league factors.

Oh, and way to go, Jays. It’s better than having him land in Baltimore, I guess. And especially good on Atlanta, who didn’t have a need to fill three days ago, got hit with injuries, then simply went out and got this done. Funny fucking thing that, eh?

It seems already like we’ve discussed this ad nauseam, and I wasn’t planning to do it again today this much, but the opportunity arose in the comments on the post below this one to make clearer just why I think the Jays’ possible inaction on Ervin Santana is so upsetting. And rather than leave it all buried there, I figured it would be useful to make a full post out of it.

Plus I get to FJM a comment from RADAR! Because this is where we’re at, apparently.

To wit:

Okay dc.
So we followed the evil triad as they amassed draft picks to be used as currency to acquire players.It raised a bottom farm system to a top five.


In 2 years Rid the Jays of one of the most untradable contracts in history.

Obviously not. Don’t think I need to explain that one. Nice move, though.

Raised payroll by 40 mil in one swipe.

False. A lot of money moved out of the draft and international free agent pools into the big league payroll, and a whole lot more was added via MLB’s US TV deals. They did increase it some, but not nearly by the amount you’re saying. (Payroll in 2008 was $98-million, by the way. And the converse of all this is that in those years, when everybody was calling them so cheap, that wasn’t quite true either.)

Engineered a trade that was considered incredibly one sided.

Not by all at the time, and certainly not in retrospect.

Put together a team that included the current NL cy winner the 2011 and 2012 NL batting champs.


All decisions hailed by the fanbase and experts as successes.

Nope. Not even close. There was a tonne of trepidation about the deals — especially the Dickey one.

Example? I wrote: “Adam Rubin of ESPN New York finds an ‘AL official’ who says that Alex Anthopoulos is ‘out of his mind’ for doing this deal– which… might even be right, but at least the Jays have improved so much already this off-season that they’re not putting all their eggs in Dickey’s basket. We’re through the looking glass here people: after years of being beaten over the head with the opposite, for the 2013 Jays, everything will have to break wrong for them to not contend.” [Note: Ugh].

I also wrote: “The cost in prospects, of course, is undeniably huge, and could come back to haunt Alex Anthopoulos. … It’s taken a long while for me to come around to this point regarding this deal, and I think it’s understandable that some yet haven’t, but the more that it was out there and being talked about … the more it became clearer that this is a deal that truly makes sense for the Jays in a lot of ways, despite the insanely puking high cost.”

Now that because neither UJ nor Santana have been signed,they’re idiots and cheap bastards?

Hilariously reductive.

Both UJ and Santana have warts and we have no idea whats happening behind the scenes nor how they should be truly valued or what else is being worked on..

Ubaldo isn’t the issue. There’s a legitimate case to be made against making the deal with him that Baltimore did. On the other hand, Santana appears to have fallen into the Jays’ lap (and please, we have plenty enough understanding of what’s going on) and yet they sit motionless. That is the issue.

One deal that’s not made and all the rest should be forgotten? That somebody should be the “root of the Jays rot?”

Yes. There is an obvious, tangible upgrade they can make that they aren’t making and for no comprehensible reason. In the most basic way, if a sports team can’t do that, something is very wrong. The Jays’ particular context makes it worse:  that a team can go so hard after wins in a three-year window just a year ago and now stop is bizarre to say the least. It ought not to be simply swallowed with a generous helping of last year’s pixie dust.

A little quick throwing everybody under the bus aren’t we?

No. The “insanely pukingly high cost” of last year’s moves was palatable only when contingent on the idea that they WOULD NOT DO THIS. Again, somewhere something is fucked: either the front office drastically undersold the potential pitfalls of their 2013 strategy to ownership and now are being forced to pay for it with a stagnant budget, or ownership made promises that the payroll would keep going up regardless and instead — perhaps because of the abysmal season, the new CEO, or perhaps in a panic over the sinking Canadian dollar — pulled the rug out from under the club. And the front office naively believed that wasn’t a possibility despite watching the exact same thing seemingly happen to their predecessors.

Or maybe they simply somehow believe that adding Santana isn’t in the best interest of their club, despite the whole world, their players — and according to all the reports, the front office itself – saying otherwise.

Whatever the case, this is a situation where blame can be laid. If — and this is key — they don’t actually sign the bastard. But actually, even still it’s kinda fucked because it should never have been allowed to get to this point in the first place. An organization that isn’t utterly fucking bush league wouldn’t have let it get to this point. Where that blame goes, though, it’s really hard to tell. I touched on that three weeks ago:

In the world that Beeston and Anthopoulos try to create Rogers is benevolent and perfect, and the curious decisions made by the front office are theirs and theirs alone to stand by. Fans, it seems, either dumbly believe management’s rosy picture of Rogers and conclude that the front office is in over its head, or they don’t believe it and make Rogers an easy villain, or they swallow it whole and work backwards to agree with the club’s own lame justifications.

There is never, then, any unified opposition, with fans spread out, pushing at all three pillars.

Guess which one you’re heaving at?

AA, Beeston and Rogers have made some very good decisons in turning around the franchise. So we should demand heads to roll if we don’t get what we determine to be the right choice?

Not quite. The issue is that continuing to stand idly by is a crowbar blow to the side of the head of the credibility of everyone involved — Rogers, Beeston, Anthopoulos — and casts last year’s decisions in a wholly, wholly different light.

To me, you can’t say that it’s great that they did all of those things last winter but that it’s also OK that they’re not picking up guys like Santana and Stephen Drew on the relative-cheap right now, because those are all part of the same thing. You’re either serious about the entire project — the three year window;  winning — or you’re not. To decide now to throw up their hands and act like they’re not, to me, makes last year’s choices indefensible. It also makes the choices — which we let slide on the premise that money was being saved for pitching — to not even make smaller upgrades this winter to the bench, or at second base, indefensible.

It would have been whiny irrational fan bullshit to say these things after missing out on a Tanaka, or a Cano, or a McCann, or a Garza, or an Ubaldo, or any number of the possible major upgrades we couldn’t have truthfully expected the Jays land this winter, but Santana is going to sign a one-year deal. Even if he somehow doesn’t, his rate has come down so precipitously that it is to a level now where there is no serious argument to be made about risk. (I’m sure you’ll respond that we don’t know this, but we pretty much know this).

And with the club surely having all along had enough money in the budget to cover Josh Johnson accepting a qualifying offer — or they at least should have accounted for that possibility, otherwise why acquire him at all? — the possibilities to me are stark: either they make a tangible upgrade at a reasonable cost and sign Santana or something is truly fucked. Especially given the potential reward and how badly the Jays need to scrape together every win of value they possibly can.

The potential injury stuff? The stuff about him maybe not being an upgrade? On a one-year deal following a three-win 2013 in which demonstrated there is legitimate reason to believe his awful 2012 was the real outlier? That’s garbage.

They’ve earned the right to keep on making the decisions based on their track record.

I don’t even know about that. Like I say, either they’ve badly misread Rogers’ pathologically ruthless pursuit of grotesque dipshit design-by-committee corporate self-parody, or they misrepresented last year’s possibilities to ownership so badly that they should have never been given approval to make the deals they did in the first place. I want very badly for their sake to believe that the front office is as angry over all this as we are, and that they’ve operated entirely in good faith; that Rogers is the villain here, having pulled the rug out from under them (maybe even after pushing the idea of moving up the club’s plans, netting themselves a nifty coronation during the grand, Ted Rogers statue-unveiling, Nadir Mohamed-exiting year of 2013), but that doesn’t exactly leave us any better off.

I also want very badly for this to all work out. There’s no reason that it possibly still couldn’t, even without Santana or Drew, but that’s entirely not the point. If the front office can’t insulate themselves against ownership’s myopic whims or can’t respond to changing market conditions, instead rigidly clinging to snapshot-in-time valuations and standing firm by quaint principles that stack disadvantages on top of obvious natural disadvantages, despite all the positive that they’ve done for this organization — and there is undeniably a lot — it is absolutely not unfair to ask the question: then what fucking good are they anyway?

The answer to that question is hardly clear, by the way. And I’m not trying to say we ought to tend to the more damning side. In fact I hate validating these darkest of negative thoughts, because of all the incoherent rage that inevitably comes along with them, but if not now, when??? At least as far as simply asking the question goes. I mean, this isn’t losing out on a $100-million dice roll on Yu Darvish, this is the kind of money that six months ago we genuinely thought there was a chance they might give Josh Johnson just for shits and giggles to see if he had anything left. The players are actively campaigning for the team to sign a free agent. Like… what the fuck is going on?!?!!? And if I’m being too premature in my exasperation and pessimism about it all… good! Maybe somewhere someone will actually fucking start listening while they can still do something about it. Might as well let it out now, loathsome a place as this cheap-jack organization has brought me to…


Amazing graphic via commenter KellyGrubersBastardSon.

Comments (466)

  1. If its broke don’t fix it

  2. It seems to me the majority of pitchers who are looking to rebuild value will go anywhere but the ALE. This doesn’t excuse AA for not signing this guy before Atlanta had to shop. I’m not sure if AA deserves the benefit of the doubt any more as the Jays front office is starting to look more like it is running a campaign rather than trying to shore up a baseball team.

    • The fact that multiple reputable sources were reporting that Santana DID sign with Toronto leads me to believe that this is more on the player/agent than the team. All the BS about “deadlines” and “wants to pitch as soon as possible” was just to make whichever team suffered the inevitable spring injury more desperate.

      At this point I doubt if Santana ever intended to go to Toronto OR Baltimore. It didn’t make much sense to begin with.

      Now if they would just sign a fucking 2B already…

        • we don’t know and I’m not sure we’ll find out why the deal did not close on Saturday…

          if might’ve been Santana would not sign no matter what & needed more time…

          it might’ve been he asked the jays to up their $14.1m 1 year offer by X $’s & AA balked…

          it might’ve been he asked the jays to up their $14.1m 1 year offer by X $’s, AA agreed & still Santana balked…

          here’s griff:

          “For the Jays it was more than just securing an experienced mid-rotation starter — and who knows in hindsight, how much, if any one-year dollar amount it would have taken to sway Santana to choose Toronto. But the bottom line is that Anthopoulos doesn’t chase. He sets a number that he believes the player is worth, using history and projections, and stays as close to it as possible. He was never going to separate his Santana offer from the other clubs by enough dollars to get it done.”

          the issue is whether Santana requested/AA offered anything above $14.1m & how Santana reacted/would’ve reacted…

          the window to close the deal was clearly on Saturday.

          I suspect AA offered $14.1m take it or leave it & Santana left it on the table & happy he did now that he’s signed with the Braves

      • Word.

  3. I can’t believe that I now completely regret AA not resigning Josh Johnson. It’s come to this. I, like most, assumed that we were going to use JJs money on someone better. Instead we’re left hoping that Ricky somehow finds the plate again. Still, baseball is an unpredictable sport. I liked Dickey’s sarcasm on the weekend. Hopefully all the players start the season with a chip on their collective shoulders after hearing from everyone today that their season is lost because we didn’t get fucking Ervin Santana.

  4. I agree with most of this bullshit but there’s one sticking point for me: Stoeten, you’ve used the benefit of hindsight in this post to question a lot of what AA has done. I hope you’re willing to do the same if it turns out that Santana has a bad year. Not that it’s the best way to do analysis, but it’s only fair.

    • I see it as the same way as Josh Johnson`s 2013 — you could understand the intent behind AA`s move to get him and it flamed out spectacularly but I don`t think you could blame AA for trying. Ditto, if Santana came here and flamed out, well it was only an one-year deal and AA gave it a shot. Almost every other GM would have made a similar move if they were in the same position and had the same resources available as AA did or does. The worst that would have happened is that Santana bombed and AA could then offer him up to a contender for the stretch drive at the end of July.

      I`m much more irritated by the fact that AA seems to have been out-ninjaed here by thinking he could sit on an offer and not try to force Santana`s hand before any other teams (i.e. the Braves) had a chance to swoop in.

      Just a feeling, but judging from the comments by AA and Gibbers in the wake of the Santana signing with the Braves, this literally `shocked`AA and it`s now a clear turning point in AA`s stature as a GM – at this time last year, people were lining up left and right to fellate him and name their first borns `Anthopoulos` even when there were some people ready to throw up red flags on some of the players obtained in the two big trades.

      Also just a hunch, but I think AA will now be highly motivated to make a move (i.e. trade) in the near future.

      • Fuck right trade coming.

        Sanchez/Stro and Dean for some teams #3 probably coming down the pipe lol.

        Get rid of this jackass before he does anymore damage.

        Any GM with a pair would not of let us sit in the wind with the Braves pecking about. AA should have told Santana’s agent the deal we had on the table for him was there until 5pm Satuday and then gone forever. Not sit there for three fucking days letting the Braves figure out how bad their guy was. You put the choice back on him, “Shit I better sign now because what if the Braves don’t need me” I’m left with The Os only, and them knowing them only and all of a sudden cutting 2-3 million off their deal now. But Alas we got a boy doing a man’s job. Fucking deer in headlights this morning totally. He can sit in a back office playing numbers all day long like Jonah Hill in Moneyball, but keep him the fuck away from the phone and from making the negotiations. He’s fucking incompetent.

  5. The 2014 Toronto Blue Jays: embrace your inner nihilist.

    Great Anotocalypse Now graphic, BTW.

  6. Fuck i’m going to have to avoid this site for a week or so until you kids calm down.

    • I totally agree.
      We have been having a University style debate on here about the Blue Jays willingness or not to hire Santana. When fans become desperate over a perceived lack of intent to improve the Ball Club without knowing all the truths and untruths of the situation then it is pointless pursuing the debate further.
      Surely the history of Santana of the past few seasons is sufficient to decide in most peoples minds that he would not have been a very good fit in Toronto and therefore a very poor management decision for hiring him.

      AA made the correct decision in this matter and to go with the stable of pitchers he has.

      It surely gives more of a confidence vote to them that they can succeed.

      Lets close this debate and move on.

  7. Cheer up, on Friday you can try to watch LSU and Vanderbilt when two former Jays 2011 draft picks go head-to-head to see who should be the #3 pick in this year’s draft (the first two picks are probably already locks)

    Beede!! Nola!! It’s GO TIME!!!

    • If thats a jab at the FO not getting those deals done, thats pretty horseshit. Beede turned down 2+ million and we allocated that towards Norris. Nola was a late round pick who turned down a fair bonus to go to college to raise his stock (which he successfully did). I dont fault the FO at all, just like i wont if and when Bickford is a top 5 arm in two years

    • Yes, Beede didn’t sign, and the pick with which we picked Stroman the next year, who most analysts prefer to Beede.

  8. As this frustrating off season comes to an end, I find myself going back and forth on who I blame most.

    On the one hand, AA is the GM. The buck stops there, at least from a PR perspective. On the surface, an unwillingness to not just offer $16m or something similar just to land Santana on a one-year deal is inexcusable.On the other hand, outside of Santana, I’m not sure what else AA should have done this winter. I probably would have qualified Johnson, and would have likely given Jiminez the same money and term to come here, but i can understand arguments to the contrary. The Fister deal is the one that burns that most, but it sounds like AA wasn’t the only one shocked at how that one went down, and after losing so many prospect last year, I get not wanting to deplete the pool any further. Beyond just this offseaosn, there are some question marks about AA’s ability to get 1st rounders and signed and I think the Dickey trade in particular last year is highly questionable. On the other hand, GMs make mistakes. Sometimes trades don’t work and sometimes picks don’t sign. I’d rather that be at the hands of an aggressive GM than one who sits on their hands. AA is still the guy who went out and acquired Edwin Jackson so he could get Rasmus. He’s still the guy who lost out on high-ceiling picks not signing rather than going the safer route with college arms/players. For me personally, taking these sorts of risks is better than not doing it. If AA were to be canned I think we’d miss him. He hasn’t been perfect, no GM is, but I’d be pretty hesitant to dump him. As for his PR on the radio this morning, it’s part of the job to spew stuff like that regardless of whether he believes all of it, or if he doesn’t believe a single word.

    Rogers frustrates me, especially in light of today’s news. If $ wasn’t available to get Santana (even at a higher rate than what Atlanta or Baltimore were offering), that’s inexcusable. They sit on their $ more than any ownership in their financial position should, but at the same time I can’t help but giving them the slightest bit of slack. The team spent last season and got 74 wins to show for it. I don’t completely blame them for being reluctant to start committing long-term money beyond their current commitments which are mostly over the next two seasons, especially given what was available on the market.

    Finally, not here – but elsewhere in media circles – Beeston gets way too much cover in my view. I know he’s known the guys in the media for 30 years, but his insistence (apparently) on playing by 1970′s rules in 2014 is baffling and infuriating. The notion you’d even speak to a term-limit issue rule is insane (Regardless of whether it’s flexible or not) as is the notion of not giving out bonuses. Whether a player “deserves” a certain amount of money, a certain term, or a certain bonus structure is irrelevant. The market is the market. I worry that beyond the media cover he gets from many, that Beeston’s cache extends beyond just the talking heads and exists in Rogers HQ and in the management structure as well. I’m sure he’s a lovely guy, but standing by these principles that contradict the reality of the market in many ways is indefensible

    Really, I have no idea what the Jays need to do next. Start playing by the same rules as everyone else would be a nice start.

  9. Welp, at least maybe we can concentrate more on the game of baseball rather than the business of baseball. Go Jays!


    cc @BlueJays

  11. I think AMA needs to start buying items on eBay. That way he’ll start understanding maybe he should do that by now instead of waiting for the auction to end and him being on the outside looking in every time. All well at least we got Ricky Romero laugh out loud

  12. I can’t express in words how disappointed I am that this slipped past the Jays. The guy got 100 grand more from Atlanta. We couldn’t have upped this to 14.5 or 15 to get it done?

    I’m sorry but this current team is supposed to be the fruition of a four year master plan. If the Jays put up 80-85 wins this season or less, how can we call AA ‘s plan anything but a failure?

    • It wasn’t the $100,000. Maybe if the Jays did offer him $15 million before the Braves got hit with injuries, he would have signed.

      But he didn’t sign with the Braves because of the $100,000. He signed because of the multi-millions more he will make on a long-term deal, after having another good season, which is way more likely to happen in Atlanta than Toronto.

      • “Maybe if the Jays did offer him $15 million before the Braves got hit with injuries, he would have signed.”

        I think that’s what we need to find out imo…why AA didn’t in light of, on Saturday, Baltimore allegedly coming in at $13m + incentives…

      • …nailed it. He played the Orioles and the Jays while waiting for an NL opportunity. In Hotlanta, pitcher-friendly park (negating his gopher-ball stats), little offence, so chances are he’s pulled for a pinch-hitter before he stresses arm in later innings, less offence in the entire division = better stats. The best read there was on this says he was willing to sit out until after July, when draft pick compensation was no longer an issue, in order to find the right circumstances for setting the stage for another run at a long-term deal next year. If he can nurse another year out of an elbow that has been reported to be iffy at best, he’ll get his long-term deal, blow out his arm, spend a year to a year-and-a-half rehabbing, and another year getting back to his potential. I like having the $ available for a trade-deadline aquisition or 2 IF this bunch performs to their capabilities and show thaey are worthy of a deal or 2 to put them over the top.

    • AA pretty much said outright on the Blair show that he thought they had a deal with Santana done on the weekend. The whole affair has a bad odour.

      There’s plenty of sticks to beat the organization with, but I don’t think this is one. I doubt 15M or even 16M would have got him after Atlanta entered the mix.

      • +1

        Santana wanted a league and division where he could shine and use that to get a huge multi-year contract. He was playing the long game and we didn’t feature into it and couldn’t feature into it. Neither could the Os. This division is very hard on pitchers.

      • That’s the danger of waiting until a quarter to midnight to try and pull out a deal.

        • Tom W’s right – AA slow played his way into his own fuck up. He waited and drove the price down. Fine. Could’ve been great, in fact. But shit happens, and if you wait too long it’ll happen on your goddamned head. If it wasn’t the Braves and Medlen it could have easily been some other team’s starter that got hurt in spring training. And he was playing with fire to allow the Orioles to stay in the running so long. Fuck, fuck, fuck.

          • “If it wasn’t the Braves and Medlen it could have easily been some other team’s starter that got hurt in spring training.”

            I’d say Ervin was banking on this, which would explain why he took so damn long to “contemplate” the Toronto and Baltimore offers. All in all, very well played by him and his agent.

        • Santana and his (new?) rep played this perfectly… he was prepared to wait until July if necessary to get to the NL (no DH = more pinch-hit for pitcher earlier in games = less innings logged on suspect elbow), to negate the draft-pick negative (disappears in July), to pitch in a park where his gopher-balls will die on the warning track. The AL East, with parks like Rogers Centre, Yankee Stadium, etc. was the LAST place he wanted to wind up. This was ALL still about posiitioning for a long-term deal next year, give that the circumstances did not work in his favour this year.

      • I really hate the point about him having a better shot at a multi-year deal playing in a more pitcher friendly division. I’m not saying it wasn’t the rationale or anything but man it’s just so BS. All GMs and agents are obviously aware of ballpark/divisional splits and are acting accordingly. It’s not like anyone is being fooled.

        Anyways I’m not using this as THE stick to beat them with, the second comment was more an opinion on the whole AA tenure.

      • The 15 or 16 million would have likely had him signed right thereand then. After that, what happened on Sunday with the Braves would have been irrelevant. Just another case of being penny wise and pound foolish. $2 million more would have given Santana a small moral victory at the time as well because he would have beaten the QO. Hats off to Santana and his agent in the end and to Braves ownership who reportedly took just an hour to approve the extra budget. If Santana gets a QO next year too he’s looking at basically 2/$28 million. Not bad considering some who said 3/$27 million was a great deal for him.

        • This kind of stuff is relatively baseless speculation, unless you’re in Santana’s inner circle. Maybe 20 mill would have sealed it, who knows?

          Multiple very credible outlets reported a done deal Saturday morning. We have no idea how many teams were calling Santana once the ‘one-year deal’ campaign broke. Nor how many teams were on the phone with his agent as saturday progressed to sunday and the braves’ injuries.

          There is a space of time between 2 parties agreeing verbally to a deal, hanging up the phone and then getting pen on paper. It would not be the first time something like this happened, nor will it be the last.

          The story of Santana backing out put seems plausible to me. He clearly prefered to not pitch here. I doubt 1 or 2 million makes much difference when a one year contract in a preferable pitching environment and context can turn into multiple more years and millions next off season.

  13. “Yes. There is an obvious, tangible upgrade they can make that they aren’t making and for no comprehensible reason. In the most basic way, if a sports team can’t do that, something is very wrong. The Jays’ particular context makes it worse: that a team can go so hard after wins in a three-year window just a year ago and now stop is bizarre to say the least. It ought not to be simply swallowed with a generous helping of last year’s pixie dust.”

    “To me, you can’t say that it’s great that they did all of those things last winter but that it’s also OK that they’re not picking up guys like Santana and Stephen Drew on the relative-cheap right now, because those are all part of the same thing. You’re either serious about the entire project — the three year window; winning — or you’re not. To decide now to throw up their hands and act like they’re not, to me, makes last year’s choices indefensible. It also makes the choices — which we let slide on the premise that money was being saved for pitching — to not even make smaller upgrades this winter to the bench, or at second base, indefensible.”

    Perfectly said, so I’ll just say plus 1000.

    The front office and management is making it REALLY FUCKING HARD to get excited about this team and get behind them this year. Someone needs to hold AA’s feet to the fire and directly say “you yourself said last year that this was a 3 year window, that even if things didn’t work out last year, you still saw the potential for success in the short to medium term. Given that, HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY JUSTIFY DOING JACK SHIT THIS YEAR TO BOLSTER YOUR ROTATION WHEN IT WAS CLEARLY THE WEAKEST PART OF THE TEAM LAST YEAR AND A ONE YEAR DEAL FOR A GUY LIKE SANTANA IS AVAILABLE?!”

    • Ok so just listened to AA on Blair’s show. Gotta hand it to Blair; he at least challenges AA. Anyway, ok, so dude wants NL. I really wonder if that desire would have been so strong if you just overpaid. 1 year 20 mil. Why not? That would have got it done, I’m convinced.

      • Santana wanted NL as of Friday, Saturday or only beginning Sunday?

        B/c as of Friday/Saturday, seemed only Jays/O’s were in on Santana…

        question is whether 1 yr & > $14.1 was asked/offered by AA/Santana…and whether it would’ve made a difference…

        • Grrr… now I am begrudgingly seeing other side. Fuck AA; he’s so level-headed and reasonable and hard to hate! Fuck, I mean, on the one hand I do have this innate trust in AA’s intelligence and that we haven’t seen the last chapter yet.
          On the other, after last season’s debacle, and the disappointing lack of activity this off-season, it’s just so hard to get excited for the Jays’ prospects this year.

          Fuck. Let’s go Jays either way, but fuck our line-up better bash the ball and stay healthy all year… Hutch for 20 wins this year?! I can dream…

  14. I was no Ricciardi fan, but at least he seemed to understand you may have to pay a premium to get FA to come to Toronto. I just hope AA isn’t going to knee-jerk and trade Stroman and / or Sanchez to make up for this clusterfuck of an off-season.

    • Stroman won’t be traded for help. Since he’s so close to the majors, it makes no sense.

      Sanchez could very well be dealt depending on how this team starts the year.

  15. Hey, We really like our team and if our guys stay healthy,
    we can contend for IT ALL…….. THIS YEAR!
    Ya Gotta Believe.


    If that doesn’t work out,
    We can blow it up and get a whole bunch of shiny new prospects.
    Ya Gotta Believe.


    If that doesn’t work out
    We can get this terrific new GM with his brilliant new 5yr plan.
    Ya Gotta Believe.

    We WILL have grass in the Rogers Centre in your lifetime
    Ya Gotta Believe.

  16. What is the “just missed” Jays team anyways? Santana, Darvish, Chapman….

  17. Jeez
    Was it something I said?
    Stoeten,it’s easy to find a few counter opinions but the consensus at the time is what’s important.
    Your rebutal comments need to be put into context.
    I can provide quotes and links neccessary to counter your claims but everybody seems to be preoccupied at the moment and don’t think anybody wants the conversation to change direction..
    I stand behind my comment and after considering your counterpoints ,respectfully disagree.

    • I think it was cowardly of him to respond to you in this manner since you cannot make a statement in response that has the same visibility.

      • the trade was absolutely so one sided that the commissioner of baseball wouldn’t approve it for a week.

      • A little harsh Alex,I certainly don’t consider it cowardly.
        Because of the length a response in a post makes more sense than taking up space in. the comment section.
        And while the debate between us can become heated, at least there is a debate.
        He won’t admit it but there are times when I have changed his viewpoint and he has changed mine.
        I certainly encourage what i say to be challenged.If I still disagree, I’ll say so.
        Stubborn to a fault.Both sides.
        At least I haven’t been banned.

        • ” Now don’t you two see that you’re in love with each other? … Now why can’t you admit

          Cosmo Kramer

        • Yes, I was a bit harsh I guess but who cares no one will see it, and I think he can take it too :)

          while I don’t totally agree with you I do agree that AA has earned enough cred to let a few puzzling moves slide.

  18. It’s good alex isn’t searching for the malaysian airliner, he’d be at the north pole right now.

  19. Has the Silent Assassin/Ninja become Dr. Spin? Like sands through the hourglass these are the Jays of our lives. Stay tuned folks.

  20. Look AA has improved the catcher depth, we have Navarro who looks like he can hit, walk, and have decent defense, big upgrade over JPA, he made a shrewd depth trade with lincoln for kratz and rasmussen trade. But that’s it.

    I don;t want him to make anything too rash, but if there was any place to overpay on any market, it should have been the free agent market. It just baffles me why he didnt try and target Haren, malholm, or even extend the offer to johnson if he was going for the value transactions.

    Not to mention how he completely whiffed on Ellis and Infante. If he has a trade in the mind of relievers for decent second baseman than i stand corrected. Otherwise, this offseason has been a huge fail for him, at least from the stand point of there were areas he could have upgraded on but just whiffed.

  21. Fuckity fuck fuck fuck!!!!!

  22. I’ll be surprised if anyone predicts the Jays to finish higher than 5th when all the writers start doing their season previews. I mean, I sure I can’t at the moment.

    That’ll do wonders for creating interest in the 2014 team. Cue the “We like being underdogs” spin.

  23. We are in good hands with AA :)

  24. I’m not crazy about Rogers as an owner, but I fear if Rogers didn’t own the club they’d be in New Orleans, Charlotte or Nashville. Stable local ownership seems hard to find these days.

    • Pro baseball in Toronto did fine before Rogers, and it will do fine after Rogers (though there is no apparent end in sight to the current Jays ownership situation).

  25. I’m not broken hearted, but if there are no other moves in the works, ie a trade for a front line SP, then my faith and fanship will wain. Or blow the thing up, but don’t go 85% of the way and stop. Morales is still available, so Lind as a trade chip is still viable. Unless they have some blanket rule where they don’t deal with Boras. Considering the clubs secrecy, Stoeten’s frustrations are understandable. Ev’ry day I’m speculatin.

  26. Man what a winter, the way AA piped off about over paying for a catcher it was probably close that were not starting Thole this year.
    In one way I’m glad this shit is over, now we can cross our fingers and enjoy the ride.

  27. I think you have to face the fact that Santana wasn’t going to be enough to get the jays into the playoffs this year. Thus it didn’t make sense to go above their valuation to sign him. I believe that’s why he didn’t sign here.

  28. Being a Jays fan is like getting mushroom slapped and having to walk around all day with the humiliation imprinted on your face for everyone to see.

  29. Santana (and yes, he has warts, Jesus are those ever getting glossed over something fierce) wants to pitch for his next contract, waited for the right opportunity and is now pitching in the NL East instead of the AL fucking East. That makes him (or his agent) smart. It says nothing about Blue Jays front office competence. NOTHING. Did AA make a take-it-or-leave it offer? Who knows? Would it have made a difference if it was upped to $16M? $17M? I doubt it – what’s 1-2 extra million this year when you’re looking at a 5 year 100M payday a year from now? This hysterical ‘do something do anything” attitude was silly before, it’s silly now.

    • after last year with how boston and toronto’s seasons went, as compared to how they were supposed to, i dont get too worked up before a pitch gets thrown. I dont see a reason why they shouldn’t use that 14 million they have available to do whatever they can to upgrade the team now… if they dont do that, i may be a little miffed while I continue to watch every game.

    • Nah- I call bullshit. People are pissed, but many critics aren’t ‘hysterical.’ There was no obvious NL option for Santana until Medlen got injured. AA had plenty of time to get something done. Santana’s price had come way down and he was clearly getting nervous. AA overplayed his hand. He’s the one that announced at the beginning of the offseason that getting 1, possibly 2, starters was the goal. You’re right that none of us know what precise offer might have gotten him. But that’s AA’s job. It’s like when you’ve got a strong hand in Texas Hold em’ but you let stragglers hang around and catch a card on the river. Sometimes you gotta take down the pot when you can. Timing matters, and in this case AA waited too long.

      We needed a good starting pitcher. One was available at a really reasonable price. We had an advantage in the market vis-a-vis draft picks. And yet somehow we came up with nothing. That’s a fuck up.

      • Santana was smart, waited, and found a better deal. Period. AA can’t force a guy to sign a contract. Was it unlucky that the Barves suddenly had health issues at SP and jumped in?Sure. Does it mean AA is in anyway incompetent, or justify all this rending of garments going on here? Hell no.

        You want Jiminez at the price the Os paid? I don’t. They tried to land AJ Burnett. They made a good offer to Santana. None of panned out. There was a trade for Anderson (I think?) but the medicals looked bad. Shit happens. YOU CAN’T MAKE PLAYERS SIGN CONTRACTS YOU PLUNK IN FRONT OF THEM. So now we see if maybe something can get done on the trade market, or hope for a bounce-back from Romero, that Morrow stays healthy, Hutch steps up. Dickey-Buerle-Morrow-Hutch-Happ/Romero/Stroman/??? isn’t the disaster everyone seems to think it is. If this team stays healthy, the lineup can rake, the bullpen is solid and I firmly believe they can make a run at a wildcard.

        Fuck it, I’m done trying to talk some of you off the ledge. Wallow in your misery if you want to. Me, I’m going to see how the season goes, and see if AA has anything else up his sleeve.

        BTW… “not hysterical”? Have you read some the comments here? Heh!

        • @ Steve-O

          You say: “Was it unlucky that the Barves [sic] suddenly had health issues at SP and jumped in?Sure.” It’s not just that pure ‘luck’ — some magical force that swirls around and affects shit beyond everyone’s control — is at work here. AA left Santana out on the market for far too long. Eventually — inevitably — other teams were going to develop SP needs. This is not a case of AA’s bad ‘luck.’ He waited too long and got burned.

          You also say: ” YOU CAN’T MAKE PLAYERS SIGN CONTRACTS YOU PLUNK IN FRONT OF THEM.” I, too, can type IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. Maybe they help when one’s stating the obvious as you are here. You can’t make players sign, but you can entice the shit out of them, and clearly AA didn’t get the job done.

          Finally, you seem happy to sit around and hope that all the IFs go right — if Romero returns to form, if Hutch pitches like he did in the Arizona league, if Happ sorts out his shit, if Stroman pitches like a rookie of the year candidate…. Dude – we hear the same shit every fucking spring. Yes – if everything breaks our way we’ll compete. But placing our hopes on multiple question marks in the rotation is a very long shot. AA said that addressing the rotation was his #1 priority this off season. He has failed. Does it mean that he should be fired? No. But he is well deserving of the criticism he’s getting today.

    • Imo, it may or may not say sobething about AA…question remains why wasn’t the deal closed on Saturday? This may have nothing to do with AA or everything to do with him…may be simply Santana just wanted more time…

      Unlikely we’ll find out but the question lingers…

    • right on Steve-O

  30. I’m not a complete AA apologist. Keeping JPA around and getting rid of every other credible catcher was just disgraceful. There was no reason to believe he would improve enough after his previous seasons to lose everyone else. I’m happier than you others with Goins but I’m not completely thrilled. 2nd base has been a big black hole for far too long. He stockpiles bullpen pitchers but seems to be indifferent to the importance of defence.

    That having been said, he sounded stressed as hell on the Blair show. His voice was cracking. I think Upstairs has hauled him on the carpet over this one. I don’t think the bosses are too thrilled with (another) pr hit. I guess we will see soon enough how this team performs. I still think they can be competitive.

    • So Isabella do you see this (pr hit) as AA’s own doing? IE: The $$ were available and AA just decided he wasn’t going over his own self determined value point?

      • This is what I think happened. AA played a game of chicken because he thought he had the cards to do so. He waited Santana out until the guy went for a one-year deal because no one wanted to sign him for a multi-year deal. At that point, even though the Os were in the mix, I believe AA thought he could swing a deal that would bring Santana in on a contract that worked well financially for the club. It sounds like he actually had a handshake deal on Saturday morning. However, when Santana walked away, AA did not follow behind him waving more $$$. I don’t blame him. The guy had given his word and then broken it. AA probably stood on principle. Maybe thought he still had a chance to reel him in. Then the Braves lost on of their sps and the whole landscape changed. Perhaps what he should have done if he really wanted Santana was to react as soon as he heard the noise about the Braves. Signed the guy then and there, given him an extra mil or so. I’m not an Ervin Santana fan so I am not upset that he didn’t. But everyone else seems to be and it is horrible pr for the club to continually come in second, third, second, fifth, etc etc on players they want to sign. I think AA should set a target on a player and then go all-in to get him rather than this tepid shit he’s doing now burbling about contract lengths and so on. He just looks weak and so does the club. That’s why I think he got a bollocking.

        • if there was a verbal deal/understanding, I don’t blame AA any one bit.

          imo, I don’t think there was a handshake deal/verbal agreement…I think AA thought the deal was gonna get done, that’s all.

          we just don’t know what happened on Saturday…there’s a bunch of possibilities, from AA dropped the ball to there was nothing AA could do whatsoever…

          We need to know, though highly unlikely, what went on Saturday…

        • Santana walked away from a verbal deal and AA stood his ground against Santana out of principle? Well my fuckin hero.

          A. Complete fabrication about a verbal deal. We have no idea what happened.

          B. If the completely made up story is true, AA putting his principles ahead of the good of the team didn’t work out so well now.. Did it?

          Complete garbage.

        • This is part of a message I posted way up there, but think it bears re-posting in part as it`s relevant here in response to Isabella`s post.

          - I`m much more irritated by the fact that AA seems to have been out-ninjaed here by thinking he could sit on an offer and not try to force Santana`s hand before any other teams (i.e. the Braves) had a chance to swoop in.

          Just a feeling, but judging from the comments by AA and Gibbers in the wake of the Santana signing with the Braves, this has just literally `shocked`AA and it`s now a clear turning point in AA`s stature as a GM – at this time last year, people were lining up left and right to fellate him and name their first borns `Anthopoulos` even when there were some people ready to throw up red flags on some of the players obtained in the two big trades.

          Also just a hunch, but I think AA will now be highly motivated to make a move (i.e. trade) in the near future.

          I think he`ll have a hard time justifying the move to his players in addition to being called upon the carpet by the bosses – you saw how aggressive some Jay players were in trying to entice Santana to come here, so I think AA has to justify his actions to the players in private in some way, or the team could very well spiral downward rapidly at a key junction if the hitters (let`s say) perceive a poor outing by a fourth or fifth starter to be a back-breaker knowing they could have had someone like Santana in there.

          Finally, I do think there`s definite potential for the Jays as a team to bounce back as several players performed well below expectations and if we get some good health for a change, anything is possible … even so, it would have been a mental boost more than anything else for the mind sets of certain players if they saw that management was willing to go out and get another pitcher such as Santana.

          • I agree AA is shocked. I thought he sounded shaken as hell when he was on with Blair. I can’t believe it was because of the Santana signing. He had known about that for a while and he’d had time to react and compose himself. That’s why I think it’s possible someone had very recently ripped him a new one.

            I also agree that AA is now going to make something happen in order to protect his position. I just hope it’s the right something.

  31. Ervin Favourited my tweet!

    @ErvinSantana_54 lost a few followers today. Toronto > Atl for twitter followers, but that wasnt what u were looking to increase #nlvalue

  32. I must admit that I didn’t see the off-season playing out the way it has. I don’t get too worked up during the off-season as sometimes waiting out the market generates the greatest value. That being said, we’re well into Spring Training and it doesn’t look the opening day lineup is going to change too much (although we can still hope).

    I had assumed that AA would prioritize the rotation with catcher and 2b as secondary targets. I assumed that they would pick up at least one and probably two starting pitchers and I was thinking/hoping it would be someone like Brett Anderson via trade and probably Jimenez via FA. I assumed they’d pick up a catcher and was hoping for Ruiz but don’t mind Navarro (I had a soft spot for Hannigan in an 80 GP role but the Rays always seem to pick up the hidden gems). I also assumed they’d upgrade at 2b and really hope they still do (although I don’t think you’ll get Drew at a Cruz-like $8 million). After the Mariners signed Cano I assumed they’d move Franklin (my preference was Ackley) but nothing on that front.

    There’s always a lot we don’t know when we critique GM’s (e.g. personal preferences of FA’s like Santana in the NL, injury reports, valuation of players by opposing GMs etc.) but I still find it hard to believe that guys like Goins and Redmond are being considered for key positions given the Jays expectations and budget. There’s just too many players out there at SP and 2b specifically that represent upgrades. I like rotation depth as much as the next guy but when the ceiling of most of the depth represents the profile of 5th (or maybe 4th) starter you’re not putting yourself in a position to contend.

    I’m optimistic that a bunch of guys will step up from last year (some by just staying healthy) and I’m hopeful that Dickey in particular may emerge as a true AL East ace. I just can’t believe that AA is content to go forward with so many glaring talent gaps.

  33. And hey since mindless baseless speculation is the theme of the day, l’ll say that Rogers has set AA’s budget for the season that includes the $14M turned down by Santana, so maybe keeping that $ in your back pocket to spend on a player you can acquire in a trade later might be a good idea? No let’s spent it on that shiny thing over there because DO SOMETHING THAT’S WHY

    • You’re the kind of person who subscribes to the philosophy that good things come to those who wait. You must be 12 years old because most of us have been waiting a looong time already.

      • Hm. My reply seems to have vanished. Anyway, I won’t re-write it. Short version: Nope, I’m old, but an optimist. Don’t wallow in despair over Ervin freaking Santana people! :)

    • Actually after Santana it’s not just spending, but ” trading for” and spending. There are no more viable FA pitchers available so in order to acquire one now, they’re going to have to trade for him.

    • Yeah because the net value to the organization is only likely going to be higher by trading away top prospects to replace what you could have had for cash. Not to mention all the other factors like building depth, delaying player service time clocks and you know winning games upfront. Brilliant strategy.

  34. Anybody know if the game today will be streamed online somewhere? Vipbox not showing a link.

  35. The only thing that made taking on shitty contracts like Buehrle’s and giving up prospects like Noah and TD was the idea that they were going to go for it and time was now.

    Knowing that they would change their plan midstream like this, do you guys think it was wise to take all that risk for a one year window?

    20 million for Buehrle over multiple years but not less than that for one year on ES?

    • Buehrle is better than Santana, and taking on that contract was obviously an integral part of getting the deal done since the Marlins were dumping salary.

    • I agree on the prospects. I supported the trades but assumed, like most, that they would stay the course of this new direction for at least a couple years. The ol’ ‘one year try’, followed by the ‘panic and revert back to our old ways’ is just an awful waste of all that prospect capital. Sets the Jays back years in the process. Terrible management.

  36. Will the legions of milllennials that attend games because that’s the trend really care? I doubt it.

  37. This is a FUCKING JOKE of a franchise. Period.

  38. Now he has money for non tendered guys. Go Ricky no pressure but it’s up to YOU

  39. AA says we couldn’t call MLB headquarters and get the paper work to move to the NL….if a guy wants to pitch in NL there’s nothing we can do it wasn’t money and it wasn’t term. (what a joke, what’s with the lies, NL hasn’t been in play on Santana until three days ago what a F’cking goof AA is.)

    • the Paper work to NL was a joke but let’s hear that you guys sat on your hands which is fine….but just say that, you had four months to sign Ervin….don’t keep spreading lies.

      • or, you know, Santana just realized on the weekend a one year deal was in his best interests, so he fires his agent, and Atlanta suddenly has a need, and Santana realized pitching in the NLE is better to build value than the ALE, so… but, yeah, it’s all AA’s fault he couldn’t sign a pitcher no other team in baseball felt had value.

        • Atlanta entered three days ago and at least five teams were in on him…but yeah no value.
          Keep loving your AA…..he’s gone in a couple months

          • You don’t trade a chit ton of prospects and accelerate your compete time in one offseason just to make one improvement at catcher and two back in the rotation not to mention second base how is this team better than remember this is year two of a three year window of competing.

            • The team just can’t NOT be better this year. Morrow, Johnson, Izturis, Cabrera, Arencibia, Bonifacio were all complete dogshit in 2013. Half are gone, the other half are pretty much guaranteed to be better in 2014. Not to mention Reyes, Lawrie and Rasmus all missed significant time to injury.

              The team didn’t suddenly turn into the Astros in the offseason — the big pieces are all still there.

              • You could be right, I’m still going to be at the rogers centre and watching some games….But you do have to remember some of those dog chit players that are gone are being replaced by players no one would be surprised if they play like dog chit….your Navarro’s and Goins of the world,.

                • We shouldn’t be disappointed that the team will now be crap (it isnt) because we didnt sign anyone outside of Navarro, we should be upset that we are destined to miss playoffs unless we pull a 2012 orioles.

          • only after they lost some guys to injury. You think if he was highly thought of he’d last until March 12th? I’m not proclaiming a love of AA, but taking a reasonable approach to why the guy did what he did.

    • Sanatana wanting to play in the NL is one thing. But AA missed on every other FA starter out there. I’ve had a lot of patience believing there’s no way the Jays go into 2014 with their current guys.

      I’d say fire AA but I don’t even know if that helps anything.

      This franchise sucks balls.

  40. Hoping the DJF podcast won’t be the audio version a the Bata’an Death March. Man, it’s Spring! Cheer up, the season is almost here!

  41. AA sounds stressed but he puts on a decent front. Rogers must change messages to AA all the time. Why approve $20M yr, back loaded deal for Buerhle and Reyes’ deal but not ok a few more $ for Santana or to pony up for UJ? AA takes blame in this too. If your budget is a moving target, and the free agent mkt will be tough given your ownership, just give Josh Johnson a QO and be done with this. Poorly played all around. They still play the games so lets hope good luck and good health cover over the disastrous ownership/ mgt decisions.

  42. Fuck, I really wished they just gave JJ his QO. At least could have gotten a draft pick out of it.

    • If I was a betting man I’d rather throw my money on the Seattle Mariners to make the playoffs than the Toronto Blue Jays.

      Which pretty much sums up how shit this offseason has been.

      Enough with the spinning. Enough with the lying AA!!!

      • All you have to is look at the strength of schedules and see just how much it alters your playoff chances. Mariners have something like a 30% better chance because of it.

        • All the more reason for Jays management to throw up their hands on not even try…I guess.

          Just blows my mind that every single AL East team except the Jays has made concerted efforts to improve this winter. Considering the window of opportunity with this current roster…*head explodes*

    • They wouldn’t have gotten a draft pick. They would have gotten a year of Josh Johnson at $14 million.

      • That’s why I said “at least”. 14M for a year of Johnson looks a lot better than… nothing.

  43. I was wondering why it said ‘okay dc’ at the beginning of Radar comment. Turns out that was in reply to me.

    Anyways, bottom line is that the braves had a need for all of 2 days and filled it, while the jays had the same need and didn’t fill it in 5 months.

    There’s unfortunately no excuse for that. I’ve defended AA plenty over his term, but I can’t defend this offseason, even if by miracle they catch lightning in a bottle with Hutch and Happ

  44. Is it bad that the Jays’ only significant off-season pitching acquisition will turn out to be JA Happ’s new arm angle?

  45. I only have one thing to say.

    2013 Toronto Raptors.

    That is all.

  46. Starting opening day without being able to add a SP is inexcusable. But as I’ve said a few times, the main blunder the Jays made was not extending a QO to Josh Johnson. They just completely underestimated how much it would cost to land a FA pitcher. They ended up in a position where if they were to land the last pitcher left, they would have AT LEAST had to pay him almost the exact same amount as JJ would have received + a draft pick.

    Can anyone imagine if a year ago the Jays had flipped JJ and a draft pick to the Royals before the start of the season in exchange for Santana? People would have lost their shit.

    They were essentially about to do exactly that a year later so I can’t say I’m overly sad to see it didn’t work out. I don’t care that JJ was a wreck last year, Santana himself is proof that a return to form is possible.

    So not signing Santana? Whatever, he’s no stud. Not signing anyone? Pathetic.

    • That’s the thing even if JJ accepted the QO….he might be a disaster but it would just be for another year…..and you had nothing to lose cause I don’t think anyone thinks JJ is really as bad as 2013.

  47. So disappointing. This time last year I thought the Jays were on their way to becoming a real MLB franchise and ending the 20 year practical joke that has been played on all of us.

  48. AA on Blair says Romero looks better than he did the last two years…..after a couple sessions in march….oh it’s time for the AA praising Romero and how he looks amazing and could be our fifth starter…yikes although at this point sure Romero over Happ and Rogers is fine….AA also tells Blair he would trade some one from their lineup for an improved starter “oh absolutely we would” you could have just singed one this offseason….how can you have this three year window of contention and trade someone in our lineup for pitching when you could have just singed one. Why subtract to add when you could have just added…unless this guys name is David F’ckin Price

    • i see it as more, lets put more positivity into Romero, but to be honest he could have just said nothing about romero.

    • singed our signed…..I will lean towards both working in this offseason context….Everyone knows the Brave swayed Ervin with a sweet Melody

  49. If any of these big three pitchers were free agents next year with a better class of pitchers coming out, we wouldn’t look twice at Santana for more than 14m. It seems we’ve all waved goins as a terrible second basemen already because of course we are all scouts. Give him a chance. For the jays to contend we don’t need miracles just play to their career averages.

    • dude the scouts said his hit tool was lacking, why do you think he’s not high or even on any prospect list. It’s cause he the very definition of replacement level.

    • If the pitchers throw to their career averages and Goins, Navvaro, Melky, Lind and Rasmus play to their career averages….yikes…..Who are these pitcher next offseason Shields and Price Jays aren’t going over five years for Price which he’ll get and aren’t paying over 75m for Shields which he’ll get.

      • Santana, Jimenez, Garza are not aces by any means but these are the type of pitchers in the Jays range of dollars not the Prices and Shields

  50. We don’t know for sure that AA won’t pony up 20m or more for a premium pitcher on the market.

  51. We all loved Kawasaki playing, is Goins worse than him offensively?

  52. Anyone know where I can watch todays game online

  53. Stroman solid so far

  54. Honestly, how many times has AA and the Jays been used as leverage in the last few years? Its sad.

  55. lets just hope they can get Smardzjizia (sp?)

  56. AA is a fucking joke, a complete fucking failure……cannot believe that there are still people out there supporting him!

  57. I said it pre-2013 and I’ll say it again. This was the plan from the day the Marlins trade went down.

    Blow up the payroll, be competitive with high priced veterans, as their contracts expire fill the holes with kids on entry level deals.

    Jays were likely never planning on significant additions beyond 2013. Johnson was only getting a QO if he was too good to accept it. Rasmus will get a QO if he’s too good to accept and Gose will step in next season.

    This is how AA and Beeston sold the Marlins trade to ownership. That’s the only thing that makes sense here.

    Neither AA or Rogers are dumb enough to about face on a plan based on a bad year.

    • Just read my comment and i sound way too OK with this. I’m actually livid about it.

      Stoeten is pretty much bang on with this post. No excuse for missing on Santana but I think the reason is what I mentioned above.

    • I mentioned prospect capital above but I think it’s the key point. You can trade away your best prospects, that’s fine. But then you completely reverse course after one year?? It’s an awful waste of all that prospect capital and sets the Jays back years in the process. Terrible management.

      • I don’t think they had a choice last year. They had NO pitching if they hadn’t have done the MIA and Mets trades. But because they did, their prospects are 2-3 more years down the line.

  58. I think the truth is someone pulled the rug out from under him…and you know what? We have to accept it. He should have come out and said that their budget was limited because of many factors he wasn’t going to share, and thus let everyone know they were out of it.

    Rogers has to stop using their GM’s as patsies and allow them to tell the truth. They decided that blowing it up would cost them too much in season’s tickets– but adding was going to cost too damn much.

    AA has to hope that what he acquired is good enough so that management turns the tap on for the deadline.It’s up to the players now.

  59. And people worried about Santana and the long ball way in the Rogers Centre, wonder what they will think of Stroman and his propensity for the long ball.

    Kind of feel bad for him. First he’s told no real chance to make the team, them he is depending on how he pitches, then the Santana stuff.

    Just come back strong for a stretch run Marcus!

  60. He seems like a Jason Frasor to me…his fastball is too straight…and that’s fine. Good relievers have some value too.

  61. just seems like there’s more evidence every day that something is rotten in this organization. the Anthopolous tenure started with such promise, and yet I think so much of the early hype hid the fact that maybe the organization and/or ownership didn’t quite have their head on straight.

    The early years of a rebuild are the easiest. It’s not too difficult to trade existing talent and get returns that are hailed at the time. The Cubs are doing the exact thing at this moment – accumulating prospects and draft picks as best they can and spending freely in Latin America. It’s exceedingly easy to sell those types of moves to the fanbase, cause everyone likes to dream on prospects and project superstar lineups in the future. The end goal is so far away that should those players tank, few people will remember, or at least the failure can be blamed on abstract factors or dismissed as a special cases. It’s all sunshine and optimism and very little pressure on the club to get things right on a short-term basis.

    What’s harder is pushing the team into contention, especially when you start with self-imposed policies that make it practically impossible to compete for any worthwhile free agent. Last year’s mega-deals seem to have paralyzed them, as their prospect depth is now shallow enough that the few remaining under-25 assets are of too great importance to the near future of club to trade away lightly, and yet those same players are not reliable enough to count on for the coming season. It’s a rock and a hard place to say the least, especially with the short-term contention window that they have given themselves after last year’s trades.

    Looking ahead, are things going to be any different next offseason? It’s probably going to be worse. Two outfield spots go up for grabs that currently seem highly unlikely to be filled internally. Maybe Colby is re-signed depending on his performance this year, but even if that is the case, where are they gonna find a LF from if they can’t or won’t open up the checkbook? 2B and C still lack long term options, and of course the team will be in the neverending quest for SP’s, given that even if the team does well this year, the rotation is highly unlikely to be strength.

    If you can’t compete for free agents then you better have the patience and player development savvy of the Rays, cause spending like a drunken sailor with young assets to get to contention is likely to get you in a world of trouble.

    I hate to be such a downer, but the organization that once seemed new-age, innovative, adaptive, and prudent, now looks to me to be operating completely illogically and sending out all kinds of mixed and frightening messages. I’m not sure any of us want to know the truth here.

  62. Gameday is so fucked,
    Adam lind just hit a double 80 feet over hte fence

  63. They are never going to tell the truth, it’s just how they roll. We’ll simply have to cheer the team, we are not privy to this kind of information. Whatever happens next, the Jays need to go a lot more slowly, and let their momentum grow much more gradually.

    They mus sign the international free agents and grow their own young prospects. It ain’t rocket science, but it needs support from management, and we’ll never know if that will really be given or not as long as Rogers runs the show.

  64. I know Ricky’s spring outings are extremely small sample size, and it is spring training, however….Ervin who?

    • I doubt Ricky really has a chance give that he isn’t on the 40-man. Knowing how AA values asset management, someone would have to be DFA’d to make room and you probably lose one of Rogers or Redmond. Ricky would really have to be lights out for that to happen.

      • The way Redmond is going, he’s going to be DFA’d regardless of what RR does. Rogers may be close behind.

  65. Towel exercises paying dividends……Romero with a scoreless, hitless inning along with 2 strikeouts!

  66. Is Joe Maddon f&^%ing with the Jays by having Zobrist go down on three pitches – Looking. Does he want to bait the Jays into thinking Ricky is back? How much do division rivals hide/show each other during the spring?

    • Must be this.

    • Did he actually go down looking at three pitches? I assume that’s just what Gameday says…

      • He did it a week ago when he sent 3 lefties up against RR. I don’t trust anyone in ST. Certainly NOT Joe Maddon and DEFINITELY not the Yankees. .

        • I was mainly referring to what Mr. Tomato said below. Gameday doesn’t track pitches in ST, so it always looks like a three pitch strikeout.

          I would actually be more interested in knowing which side of the plate Zobrist batted from.

    • Gameday doesn’t track pitches properly in ST. 3 pitches for a K, 4 pitches for a walk, 1 pitch for everything else.


  68. I always felt Ervin Santana was Gil Meche 2.0. Everyone’s upset when we don’t get him but three months from now we’ll be happy we missed out.

    • I feel the same way. I’m disapointed the Jays didn’t add a starter, but missing out on Santana doesn’t bother me at all.

    • Santana is just the whole “upgrading the rotation” issue coming to a head. It doesnt matter what order the pitchers who could help us got signed in – we needed one of them….at least

    • You should maybe look at what Gil Meche did for the Royals. 9.4 WAR over 426 innings his first two seasons in KC. Got injured and went downhill after that, but those two seasons alone made the contract worth it.

    • completely agree. don’t throw good money after bad. its not just the $$ you lose, its the flexibility.

    • Gil Meche signed a five year contract. We could have had Santana for 1 year.

      Even if you think they are the same pitcher, it’s a WORLD of difference in value.

    • Exactly this!

      • The key quote here: “But it’s the Jays that show us a worst-case scenario when it comes to an injury-riddled staff. We know how many days they’ve lost to injury, and how they ranked in baseball last year, and now we know that they’ve needed, on average, 12.3 pitchers a year over the past three years. ”

        I don’t know how in love with his depth AA really is – but the average from the last 3 years tells us he’s playing a dangerous game not landing Santana. I feel fro him as it seems like he thought it was done – but the Jays are going to need a major reversal of fortune for this to all play out well.

  69. christ i hate showing my anger…

    It was interesting to hear AA’s comments regarding Ricciardi this morning, He said he respectfully disagreed with the perception of free agents needing extra incentive to come to Toronto. Of course a lot of that is posturing (Masai is eschewing the same thing for the Raptors) to protect themselves. Ergo the emphasis Alex has put on the Jays adding through trade, where the player has no choice. But fuck Alex…It’s hard to listen to you try to spin losing out on Santana and on a larger scale, pretend a guy like Tanaka for seven years is a non-starter.

    However, at least the Jays of ’05-09 went out there and actually put up some respectable win totals. Yes Alex made the Marlins and Dickey trade, yes he’s made a slew of trades to get talent here or dump dead weight. But really, there are too many holes on this current roster and only a minor miracle will allow them to contend. Ultimately, it comes down to win totals, and unless they either make the playoffs or just barely miss out in ’13, AA should be gone.

    So I guess I’m getting angrier and more myopic in tone here (and its not my nature at all despite the nicknname), but the bottom line is, despite the brand change and a more “Blue Jays” traditional approach to things (from scouting, development, marketing, etc) from a administrative standpoint, we’re still stuck with another “era” knowing we didn’t put up the cash to give ourselves a realistic shot.

    • I know it sounds like making excuses, but it’s true that the Jays have had some shit luck the past two years, especially with injuries. I do believe the true talent level of the team, right now, is in the mid-80s in wins. Feel free to call me deluded, that’s what I think. They’ve got a ton of all-star calibre offensive talent, two starters with legit ace potential and another 200-inning 4-ish ERA workhorse, to go along with a very strong bullpen.

  70. Edwin. Parrot. Walk. Best.

  71. I just love this phony claim that they set a player’s value and refuse to budge from it. Really? You truly believe that Jose Reyes and Mark Buehrle’s final years will be worth what you’re going to pay them? Especially considering the prospect cost factored in?? Please. You can’t pretend that you’re strict with your player valuations, but only in free agency.

    This is a debacle. There is no way anyone should have outbid the Jays. They could have offered Santana $18 million and looked at it as $14 million for market value and $4 million to upgrade a second round pick to a first round pick (if he declined a Q.O. next year), or $4 million to ensure that you get him for a second year at $15 million (if he accepted the Q.O.).

    I’m sure he would have said NL be damned if enough money was on the table. Especially if it was on the table last week when no NL teams were even in the fold.

  72. The Jays’ season will not hinge on whether or not they signed a questionable a pitcher with warts in March… it WILL hinge on the performance level of 24 other guys, many of whom under-produced last year, and whether or not they are able to swing a deadline deal or 2 to put them over the top if they are close. The Bill Caudill experience taught them to never get caught over-investing on iffy medical reports, and they are far better off overspending on aquiring expiring contracts in July if the team’s performance warrants it at that time.

    • It’s a moot point because in this division with this rotation the team will be out of it by August.

      • You’re right, they’ve got no chance. Why bother watching the season at all? Maybe I’ll start following Toronto FC.

    • not really
      its going to hinge on morrow/dickey/buehrle being amazing AND healthy

    • Sorry but this is horseshit. He’s pitched 200 innings three times in his career and is a far better option than Stroman, Redmond, Rogers, or whatever Ricky Romero is at this stage.

      • He’s not a “far better option”. He’s basically a walking red flag. Not worth overpaying for.

        Also, his career FIP is 4.36. The much-maligned JA Happ has a career FIP of 4.38.

        • What are you defending? You think giving Santana an extra year and more money up front is worse than what J.A. Happ is? It is not even a discussion who is the better option.

  73. Apologies if this has been posted. This means we won the Gose trade, right? Right?

  74. Anyone else a little worried that by the time value equals what the Blue Jays deem to be acceptable its becomes acceptable to others and we end up with an FA scrambling to anywhere but here because they see no value in us at this point,,,,,, AA has done lots of great things for the organization but he messed up here, he waited to long and lost out on an FA on a sweet heart deal. I don’t blame Santana I wouldn’t want to come here for 14 million either on a one year contract. I don’t see that leading me to a pay day which is all I really care about. The winning is great but let me first get that 75 million paycheck out of the way. Big market teams get who they want when they go after them unless there one upped by the Yankees. We certainly don’t act like a big market team. Getting beat out on a one year contract for 14 million is embarassing, and speaks to the point of our value point for FA’s crosses the point where the FA see’s no value in us!!!

  75. It’s ok to NOT have wanted ES and still be really botheredby the incompetence of our GM. He

  76. Ricky Romero throwing smoke and looking really good today. Dear God, maybe it is the apocalypse!!

  77. Sweet rant Stoet. Thanks for the mention.

    New picture soon to come of Santana praying to God with Turner and Fonda.


  78. I think we all need to accept that the Jays did not have any plans to change the roster from the very beginning, the Santana offer is likely more pr bs, we are not signing Drew or anyone else, what you see is what you get and lets play ball and see how they do. Easy to point at holes but a couple years back any fan would be 100% thrilled to have the best lead off hitter and 3/4 hitter combo in the entire league with all average to above average regulars besides minus a bit of a ? at C and a 2B who is great defensively but cant hit. The bullpen seems stacked and the SP is not a black hole and more projects to be average. This is still the best roster this team has assembled in over 5 years by a long shot.

  79. 2014 is reset year – time to see what the team has. If poor, the team will be blown up. If close to contenders, the team will get investments for the immediate.

  80. [...] of being in the tank for Jays’ ownership by plenty of irate mouthbreathers for years. When he pulls out his poison pen you know the team’s fucked themselves [...]

  81. [...] Now I hear you groaning, “oh no, a hockey analogy for Canada’s only baseball team.” Yes, I know it’s cliché and yes I know the hockey playoffs are a very different beast than the baseball post-season.  But if nothing else, the 2011-12 Devils offer an intriguing storyline that Jays fans can follow for a beacon of hope following an offseason of despair. [...]

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