beestonStCatharines

Oh lord. Here’s what I’m sure is exactly the way the Jays were hoping to spend a love-in of a day with baseball returning to the city for a new year, full of new hopes and a small sense of optimism pulled out of the fire thanks to a Drew Hutchison, Mark Buehrle, and the people of Montreal: Payroll Parameters!

But, of course, thanks to last night’s report at Fox Sports from Ken Rosenthal, it’s no longer avoidable, and Paul Beeston sure didn’t do much to stop the story’s momentum when he joined the excellent Matt Galloway on CBC Radio’s Metro Morning earlier today.

You can hear the full audio here, and it’s worth a listen, as he rambles into bizarre territory about the necessity of building the farm system and having young, controllable, cheap talent on the roster (sort of like the kind that the Jays traded away last year in what we now see as a feeble and suddenly-unsustainable push to become competitive), and also addresses the craft beer situation in purely myopic, short-term, capitalist terms, after first trying to make the suggestion that Labatt and Budweiser (majority owned by Belgian-Brazilian multinational Anheuser Busch-InBev) should count as locally brewed. But it was the budget stuff and the deferral scheme that provided the money quotes.

“There was discussion about that, Matt,” he said when asked about the deferral report. “And to be very honest with you, I think if it had gone that way it would have been fine.”

Let’s not mince words: that Beeston was aware of this is insane. That it went to his level, and that he didn’t say “I’ve heard of that report but I can’t speak to it, I know nothing about it,” bends the mind just a little bit. Or at least brings up thoughts of Alex Anthopoulos in his office, smacking himself in the forehead as he listens. And that he didn’t bother to clarify whether the suggestion came from the club or the players? Just… wow.

It also maybe plays into the speculation I was indulging in the previous post about the front office perhaps wanting this sort of thing to get out there, but realistically, they’ve got six months of the season left to do a thing like that, and I’m preeeety sure this isn’t what anybody down there wants to be talking about on a day like today. Unfortunately for them, though, Beeston — who, I must concede, may be more shrewd in all this than I’m about to give him credit for — continued.

“Well, we’re a business!” he exclaimed when asked if the club’s budget has been capped. “We’re a business. So the answer to that is we have a budget. So the answer is it’s not ‘capped,’ because we can increase our revenue, we can increase our expenses, but we run it as a business, Matt.”

It was at that point that Galloway asked him what that means for the club as a business when other teams have continued building and the Jays have already spent their money last year — a point which Beeston tacitly conceded, before diving into an explanation about building through other means, such as trades and the draft. Beeston then slipped in a statement about money not being a problem, before talking about building a system with guys like Marcus Stroman and Aaron Sanchez (and evidently not Noah Syndergaard, Henderson Alvarez, Justin Nicolino, Travis d’Arnaud, Jake Marisnick, etc.), who are the kinds of players, we’re told, that you need to integrate into your organization. “You need a mixture of the players who are at the minimum together with the ones that are your stars,” he lectures.

So, in essence, we’re back to square one with this crew. Also: stars and scrubs, everyone! Always works!

Ugh. And it’s just… you get the sense that in a different era, before the internet — which he doesn’t use — exploded and the fans learned all the minutiae about this club that they could stuff into their brains, maybe Beeston would be able to get away with this kind of stuff and not come off like a hopeless bullshit-fanning old hack. It’s like the difference between Rob Ford speaking to people who are even just mildly interested in the details of whatever paint-by-numbers talking point garbage he’s trying to slam his way through on, and him speaking to people who are still swept up by all the hollow narratives and reductive populism.

Beeston could be the mayor of the Jays equivalent of Ford Nation, in other words, but when people are actually paying attention to what he says and does, it gets kinda tricky.

Comments (260)

  1. Cue “stick to baseball” in 3… 2…

  2. Stick to baseball

  3. As you mentioned at the beginning of the post, this is the worst possible timing for the story to break

  4. Good Post. Certainly didn’t need this story surfacing the day of the home opener. Should be focusing on McGowan’s start since it’s a positive story after all

  5. I love how this guy doesn’t pulll any punches…why was this team so bad last year?

    Fu*king fantastic!

  6. When it comes right down to it, this is all cheap bullshit that shouldn’t be happening in a market the size of Toronto.

    • When it comes right down to it you dont know what you are talking about and venting frustration. Ownership has ponied up the money the market justifies and the team / business has not produced revenue gains that justify increasing it more.

    • Beeston is stupid…..Bud Selig of Canadian Baseball….Ken Dryden clone….talk a lot and
      says nothing….dribble…Nov 2013….new President of Rogers took over…wanted flex pack tickets renewed 2 weeks later..sure that they did not get 1/2 of the # s of sales…person who bought 15 games last year…go back to say 10 at the most…..

      Many are baseball fans June to August….Blue Jays have 30 games in April/May..Must get off a respectable start….Not like Maple Leafs tickets are 98% owned by business…
      sell outs….2 to 3,000 empty seats….hockey fans are stupid….

  7. Can’t imagine Rogers would have wanted Beeston to confirm such a thing publicly.

    Are we seeing a rift between Beeston/Jays management and ownership?

    • Wouldn’t be the first time we’ve heard about it.

      http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/10/19/brunt-a-rift-between-beeston-and-rogers/

    • Good point.
      Beeston ain’t stupid and it wasn’t a slip.If he didn’t want it known,he woulda utilized his doublespeak politician voice.

      • Hey look, it’s the chairman of the re-elect Paul Beeston committee!

        • LOL
          You’re such a child sometimes.
          Seems like Beeston is letting it be known that payroll restrictions,as dictated to him, are interferring with aquistions.
          So is it Beeston who nixed the deal to increase the offer or does the blame rest on Rogers business plan?
          I think he made it clear.
          As BFF alluded to,is does seem like a rift between the two.

          • If you want to do name calling, how’s this?: You’re a fucking pathetic sycophant and defender of everything wrong-headed about the sport because of some sad romantic attachment to the good old days when it felt so good to just close your eyes and swallow whatever narrative drivel was being fed you without thinking.

            Grow up.

          • BTW.Following your line of thinking.
            Let’s get rid of Beeston and replace him with exactly who?
            Who’s the magic man going tobe,who’ll convince Rogers to spend more?
            Beeston did what Rogers asked.
            Increased attendance,Increased profile,produced relevant content for Rogers platforms.
            Remember when not all games were broadcast?
            Christ, they got extra content airing Bison’s games because of interest in the Jays.
            510,000 viewers when their up against the Leafs.
            Rebuilt the farm.
            Beeston’s followed through and Rogers pulled the rug after one year.

            • Sportsnet has a 2-freak’n hour long Opening Day pre-game special on today. Gimme a break.

            • Replace him with who? How about someone who isn’t a fucking dinosaur?

              • Yup,a new up and comer,who’ll convince Rogers that more will produce more.
                How about a guy who’s built a WS team before?
                A guy who understands all the inner workings both business and on field side?
                A guy who was the 2nd most powerful man in baseball for 6 years?
                A guy who has all the connections throughout baseball and has been in baseball his whole life?
                A guy who can promise to increase attendance and revenue,and deliver it?
                A guy who understands that all revenue streams contribute and present that case to ownership in a manner that they an understand?

                Or maybe the Jays can get a yes man who’ll just run things,not rock the boat and not aproach the board for more?
                Maybe they can get Godfrey back

                • Beeston didn’t build those teams.

                • How about a guy who doesn’t have vocal enemies in the game he has agendas against? One that doesn’t cut us off from a significant amount of major leaguers by default. One that can realize its just a business and let shyte go.

              • Doug Ford is out of a job come November.

                Maybe Kevin O’Leary

          • Oh please

            Santana signed with Atlanta because pitching in the dome to the AL east was not where he wanted to spend a bumper year. He’s working on his last big payday and Atlanta was a no brainer.

            Edwin Jackson did the same thing a few years back.

            • atlanta shouldn’t have even been in the picture though…they only got involved because of the injury to medlen, and the jays should have locked santana up long before then. i’m not sure what the thinking was on AA’s part in waiting – i get he was going for max value, but once ST starts, all bets are off on not having competition since there always seem to be injuries, esp. to pitchers in the spring.

    • Part of me kind of hopes so. I’ve been firmly entrenched in the “Beeston needs to go” camp for a while.

  8. Thanks for the passing this along. Does this make anyone else kind of want to weep uncontrollably…
    the implications of something like this could mean again they were looking to add years to some of the contracts they were looking to defer…so there’s that. ( for a deferral of money by a player to get through the union they need to get something in return…)

    • Weep, no. Expected and dispiriting, yes. Why anyone allows Beeston to open his big fucking trap and make any kind of audible sound to anyone in the media is completely beyond me. Does he even believe his bullshit anymore? What kind of mickey mouse organization would even contemplate a salary deferral scheme? And what happened to we can spend like the Boston Red Sox? Oh right, that’s more Beeshit fog. Do the dude a solid and get him to retire. He’s obviously gone senile.

      • If the team had won last year they could spend like the Red Sox. They didnt so they cant as Beeston said it is a business. Stop hating on a guy calling him a liar and PR BS expert for saying things like they obviously are up front without deception

  9. It feels, and seems like, if the Jays are not competitive this year, we might be back to a sub $100M payroll.

    • Another fire sale looms.

      • If they aren’t in or near a playoff position at the deadline they would almost have to start such no?

      • Content is too valuable to go full Astros. They’ll just muddle through and waste the best years of the next star players to come along.

        • True… but could they do a half Astros?

          Full Astro’s being trade off everything of value for futures, replace it with replacement level major league minimum salary “talent”, collect #1 draft picks.

          Half Astro’s being trade off everything of value for futures, replace it with the best major leaguers you could bring in during the offseason up to whatever the real budget is, collect high-ish draft picks, sell it to fans as bright future and somehow not totally shitty present.

        • My concern is what this means for this year and next. Do these “payroll parameters” mean that 2014 is the farewell tour for Colby Rasmus, Casey Janssen and Adam Lind, especially given that Reyes is getting a $6 million raise and Encarnacion and Buerhle are each due another $1 million? That’s $8 million – that’s Lind’s option. Lawrie may be due in arbitration what Janssen would earn. And, a good year by Rasmus will mean at LEAST doubling the $7 million he’s earning this year – if you give him $15 million per, then good-bye Melky.

          Stay positive, stay positive, stay positive…

          I’ll add this though – there’s way too much friggin’ drama around this team.

          • One guy projects Colby, based on his WAR, and what previous CFers around his numbers are getting to close to 20 mil a year. It’s a premium position and although he hasn’t been great he hasn’t been awful either. Honestly I don’t think he is worth it, when you can find a Grady Sizemore to play the position for a heck of a lot less for a couple of years while you hope a Gose figures it out, or maybe a DJ Davis explodes. IF colby ends up with a 5/100 offer from someone, and you can re-sign Melky for say 3/36. I say stick with the Melkster.

        • Like the fucking Leafs

        • @Stoeten. Agreed they are likely to muddle in medicority rather than a firesale like Houston or Marlins. Worst thing for us passionate fans.

    • Yeah not feels and seems like. Definitely will be a well-below-$100m payroll if this team stinks again. As it should be, because how long are you going to flush money down the toilet with no hope of success? You dump some guys while eating some salary and hope you get back enough prospects to have a good, full cupboard in 2-3 years for AA’s successor to trade for magic knuckleballing beans.

      • Well Melky and Colby would be gone for sure. They might be either way if they have big years.

        Assuming those two are gone, and they make no FA acquisitions you’re looking at an outfield of Bautista, Pillar, Gose and Sierra.

        Yikes.

        • In that scenario, there is zero chance Bautista doesn’t ask for a trade.

          • In that scenario, there is a 0% chance that the Jays trade away the only marketable asset just because he wants a trade.

            “We’re a business!” – Beeston

            That says that the decisions, as many have feared, are driven by profitability first, team success second.

  10. Where is the Jays’ PR person in all of this? How can that legitimately be the way they’re spinning it from the top? Incredible they didn’t clarify whether this was initiated by players or not.

    What about “we can always make a case to ownership when adding payroll”? Looks like this case was turned down.

  11. Wow … just wow! It does seem as they are putting out there that they wanted to do something’s and were held up by a corporate road block. I think this team can be a luxury tax threshold team and still be financially viable so this is just corporate greed and stupidity.

  12. This is hilariously bad PR. Wow.

    • yeah – pretty much in keeping with the other aspects of running the club over the last 6 months or so.

    • It’s a bit freakish that a team owned by a corporate / communications goliath has such terrible PR.

      Many examples of this in the off season… Those terrible, depressing advertisements… The radio one for opening weekend in rotation on Fan590 makes me want to kill myself.

      Anyone for a Steamwhistle?

      • It doesn’t surprise me since Rogers and the rest of the Canadian telecom oligopoly are a big stinking turd. There is a reason they don’t dare venture outside their little bubble and try to compete in other markets like the Vodafones, Telefonicas, etc. of the world.

    • Bad PR from a Rogers property?

      Say it ain’t so

  13. So…

    1.) We;re not the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers
    2.) We’re running a business
    3.) We owe exculsivity rights
    4) We have to “get lucky”

    FFS.!

    • They dont have to get lucky. They have to utilise the resources given to them and field a competitive team like almost all teams in the league. The payroll is 10th in MLB. Beeston said correctly money is not the problem. Spending the money on players that havent been able to win is the problem.

  14. To be fair, Labbatt/Budweiser products are brewed in London. Technically, they are still locally brewed. Locally owned, however, is another story.

    • The whole situation with Rogers and the Blue Jays is amateur hour.

      What is the direction with respect to this team? You would expect as a corporate entity they would at least have a consolidated, coherent plan. Its organization-wide. In every instance in which you look at this team there is a cloud of instability and perceived indecision from ownership that is truly baffling.

      Highlights include:
      – Their inability to decide which customers will be able to access Anyplace TV and their decision last season to cut some fans off mid-season. (great PR on that one)
      – Their mismanagement onscreen talent for Blue Jays telecasts
      – Their stance on whether (and when) or not there will be grass at the Rogers Centre
      – The absolute inability to keep in step with the rest of Baseball with regard to in stadium experience (beer, concessions, activities etc).
      – The insistence on running the Jays as a budget team while simultaneously ignoring the enormous discount they receive on broadcasting of MLB content.

      In every case the company flip flops with whichever way the wind is blowing with respect to perceived public opinion. I suspect this is exactly why most interviews with Beeston and AA are incoherent. These guys are trying to perform mental gymnastics in an attempt to juggle the ever-changing corporate messaging spin with the reality of the questions they face. They qualify everything. They make every issue an abstract, preliminary concept. They answer that there are discussions about everything while never illuminating what the direction of these discussions might be.

      • Well said Ernie.

      • Dirk Hayhurst blogged the other day that he got called up to Rogers corporate for pointing out how fucking irritating that stupid Stadium Love song was on the promos last year. Apparently it hurt some suit’s feelings.

      • Well Ernie a big fat problem with the concessions is the evil shitshow that is Aramark.

        • Aamark sucks. Its rogers approach to baseball that makes it so. There are franchises around baseball that are RAKING money by changing their approach from the all-corporate shit on your face and tell you its chocolate approach to a user-experience approach. Instead you get the high-school cafeteria, “will that be bud or bud light?”, love it or fuck off experience brought to you by Rogers Communications. Try our new blackberry!

    • Sorry – didn’t mean to reply directly Dakins

  15. Thought this story was bullshit (or at least exaggerated) when the Rosenthal article came out last night, but… guess not. Suppose Santana had yet another reason to jump to the Braves when the opportunity arose, given that it appears his contract would have been dependent on this Mickey Mouse bullshit somehow getting past the union.

  16. I’d never advocate vandalism, it being illegal and all. But I’d love…somehow…to turn that fucking statue of Ted Rogers into a focus for fan protests against an out of touch management.

    Especially since the statue is a prime example of out of touch management. In Pittsburgh, they have statues of Wagner, Clemente, Pops and Maz. In Chicago, they have Ernie Banks. In Toronto…Ted fucking Rogers? At Rogers HQ, fine, but the BALLPARK?

    I’m open to any and all suggestions.

    • The best part of the statue is when they made some of the players show up in uniform for the unveiling. Complete bonehead corporate idiots.

      • I won’t shed any tears if someone with bigger balls makes sure it comes down in a manner inspired by the pulling down of the Saddam statue.

        Obviously not remotely drawing parallels, but it’s a comforting image.

    • Not to mention that Joe Carter jumping around the bases like a complete lunatic would’ve made an iconic, awesome statue.

    • Why don’t we just pull a Jebediah Springfield and cut off the statue’s head?

  17. Of all the things that have happened in the last few years, this is the most depressing to me for some reason.

  18. fuck man. it’s a good thing I really love baseball, because this stuff is really starting to piss me off!

  19. I think we need to develop something analagous to the JP Ricciardi bullshit translator 3000 for Beeston.

  20. The fucker literally started cackling in the interview at the suggestion of the team spending more on payroll, even though he acknowledged that it’s possible. Is this real life?

    • Yes this is exactly real life. Anything is possible and people in management could make all sorts of suggestions of retarded ways to spend money.

  21. Pretty fucking sad basically sums it up. I guess that interview more than anything else this winter confirms the Rogers issue.

    Based on what was said back in October I do wonder if the Jays weren’t told one thing initially and something else entirely come the end of November/December.

    It certainly does raise questions about the trades back in 2012.

    Either way just one more black mark for an organization that can’t seem to get it’s shit together. You would think Rogers brass would have learned from recent history that one time infusions aren’t the cure. They tried that under JPR and just as they looked like they were going to take the next step forward they cut the money off and didn’t upgrade a decent core. That eventually led to AA’s rebuild.

    Poor results this year looks like it could possibly lead to the same thing.

    • This is not on Rogers. They gave the front office the leeway and financial resources required to field a competitive team and they have not been able to deliver yet

  22. I feel sorry for AA. If you think it’s tough as a fan to watch this bullshit, imagine how it is for Anthopoulos. He blew the farm with one set of expectations only to have the rug pulled out from under him. Now it’s him twisting in the wind. I would guess that he made some promises and commitments to JB, EE, Dickey that are worth jack shit now. And he’s left wearing it, not Beeston, not Rogers.

    • Hard to absolve him like that. He should have known that the rug could be pulled out from under him — not like he wasn’t right there next to JP at the end of the Ricciardi era.

      • In a larger sense, that’s fair enough.

        Given that he was given the green light on expanding payroll only last off-season, I thinks it’s reasonable to say he would be surprised to have the vault shut before he has had the opportunity to finish what he started.

        • I don’t think so. I think it’s reasonable to speculate that he might’ve made the awful Dickey deal knowing it was his only way to realistically improve the team for ’13 AND ’14.

      • You have a point and he may very well be guilty here too. But it is possible that he really did get fucked in all this too.

        I’m not sure “he should have known” is a good argument. It’s not as if you can say to your boss “I totally get what you’re saying but I’m going to completely ignore you because I don’t trust you not to go back on your word”… because in that case you should just quit… or if you do say that you’ll be fired.

        • Quitting is pretty much career suicide though. If he gets fired he’ll catch on somewhere else in a lesser role and could easily have another GM’s job in ~five years.

      • “He should have known that the rug could be pulled out from under him”

        That, for me, is the linchpin in his defence. It’s a large assumption to say that he should have known. He very well could have been told that he’d have funds to continue to the push. Big companies sometimes operate like that and ‘changes in direction’ screw people over all the time.

        I’m not sure if we’ll ever find out what exactly was promised to whom but, if he knew he wouldn’t have the budget, AA is definitely to blame for the trades. If he didn’t know, then I’ll certainly try my best to defend him and shift the blame to Rogers (or Beeston, if it was his job to secure the budget).

        • Sorta puts the off season into perspective.
          AA announces at the end of 2013 that he needs 2 SP,2B and a catcher.
          Then starts searching only to be called into Beeston’s office and told “um,not so quick,here’s what you got to work with”
          Oh,to be a fly on the wall.

      • Yes and No.

        1. It is possible that Nadir Mohamed assured AA that even though he was retiring, the corporation was committed to the plan. For all we know Guy Laurence could have totally yanked the rug from out under AA after taking over.

        OR

        2. AA could have been assured there was more money to spend in 2014 as long they showed they were a 500 or contending team in 2013? No one expected 74 wins.

        • Then why did AA say what he did,at teh end of last season?
          He coulda said “We are going to try to improve the team the best we can” and leave it.

          • Because 1 or 2 could have happened after that? I wasn’t suggesting it was a knee jerk reaction. Obviously over the winter things changed.

          • @Radar. His saying that was a huge mistake only he should be accountable for. If payroll was frozen it was justified and he was entirely naive and incompetent to be blindsided by that.

      • Sorry, no. That’s horseshit.

        He made a first cut at building a winner last year. Then he identified the holes and, as far as we can tell, set about trying to fill them. Except, apparently, he couldn’t because Rogers snapped their sphincter shut.

        To say he *should have planned* for the money to stop flowing is to say that he really needs to *avoid* trying to build a winner for fear he’ll be unable to make the required tweaks when the time comes. You’re resigning yourself to more of these cycles of futility if you can’t have a reasonable expectation that the necessary money will be there.

        AA again gets a pass here. If true, this one is on Rogers.

        • But it is not a reasonable expectation that expenses can escalate when revenues are not which the general manager of a business needs to understand.

          The team that was constructed has holes? So fill them without increasing payroll since payroll increase isn’t justified without sufficeint revenue increase –> not two years in a row anyway.

          During JP era at least once payroll went up the team did well and they just missed out. The revenue gains that were achieved were entirely due to hype and not sustainable unless the team starts winning. Adding to that risk by signing one or two players for $10M plus is a risk the business is justifyably not taking.

          • To be clear, working under a limited budget is an entirely different thing from working under a budget that changes adversarially. You can plan around a limited budget. You can’t plan around an adversarial budget the same way unless you’re content with a Rays-like 10-year period of utter crappiness.

            Let’s explore the question of whether this is “reasonable” behaviour or “justifiable” behaviour on the part of Rogers, shall we?

            Suppose your kid brings some friends over. You’re sitting upstairs posting on DJF or whatever, then your kid tells you he’s hungry. You ask whether he and his friends would like some pizza. He agrees. So you go and order enough pizza for him and his friends. Pizza guy shows up 20 minutes later, kid comes up asking for money to pay the pizza guy. You hand him $20. Kid goes down with the $20, gets told it’s $50 of pizza, and comes back up. Is it “reasonable” or “justifiable” or anything of the sort to take the $20 back, deliver a lecture on why eating junk food is bad, and then write a DJF post talking about how cutting off the money needed to fix holes in the roster is totally justifiable because there are theoretically cheaper and somehow better options?

            • A more appropriate analogy may be that you are providing your kid resources to make and sell pizza to support his dreams of being a multi national pizza enterpriser. You pay for some training, some supply of materials and a decent pizza stove. The kid expects to get more resources to expand his enterprise once he has sold a lot of pizza and makes plans to improve his operations, get a better stove, secure some more retail locations and distribution. But he fails to sell enough pizza to turn any profit given his initial resources and investment. Then you have to evaluate do I put more money into this vs the expectated return and ability to make profit and decide that there isnt a strong business case to do this and dont give more money. Then your kid blames you for him not succeeding as a multi national pizza enterpriser. In the Jays case the strength of the business case to expand is not really known to us. As a fan I say hell yeah obviously go plug the holes with money and we will win with that solid roster and get big return on investment but I dont really know the strength of that argument from the business perspective nor am I an expert analyst of baseball prospects with the incremental additions of expensive talent.

              • and the other part of that analogy is to tell your kid to show you that this pizza enterprising model is profitable given the already substantial resources supplied to him and strengthen the business case to give additional resources. Maybe he sources some better tasting peperoni for the same price, buys sauce in bulk or streamlines operations – improvements without needing additional resources.

                • Yeah, here you’re postulating the existence of “improvements that require no additional resources” that AA hasn’t already done. There’s no evidence that such things exist, and that’s kinda why your entire line of argument is horseshit.

              • No, that’s woefully inappropriate. It’s clear that something was promised but not delivered here. Rogers, ex-Jays, isn’t really in a position to judge the Jays’ current or future success. And looking at a won-lost record is one of the worst ways to try.

    • Wow. Feel sorry for AA. This is insane. He needs to be held accountable for the teams performance it isnt Rogers fault that the high payrolled team didnt win. The rug wasnt pulled out from under him, if anything the rug was pulled out from under Rogers after they spent a pile of money with hopes of ROI from the team winning while the team won 75 games

  23. You get the feeling that there is some people at Rogers who look at the Rays, and simply say, “Be like them, please!. They can be competitive with a 60 million dollar payroll, so that is all you should really need. If you can’t do that, you’re just costing us profit. Tampa is 50 million in the black before even selling a ticket. In the end attendance might be completely irrelevant. So let’s ape their model. Fans and attendance are pointless. You need to keep payroll down so that the league’s guaranteed money puts you well into the black. That’s just judicious business especially for a publicly traded company with obligations to the stockholders!”

    You wonder if they Jays end up well in the red that they are worried about at stockholder lawsuit. This might just be the unfortunate byproduct of being owned by a public company.

    • HA. These comments just get sillier and sillier. You propose a theory that completely contadicts the actual actions that have taken place

      • I didn’t say that was what they were doing, just that there are bean counters in the office pushing one way, while other people push another. All you hope for is in the end that the real decision maker has the best interest of the fans in heart and not the stockholders.

  24. I’m no expert, but it seems to me that Rogers is going about this all ass-backwards. This is sports, so in order to get people to buy your merchandise, tickets to games, etc. shouldn’t you be putting MORE money into the team to make it more competitive?

    I understand that budgeting is important, but I’m of the understanding that if you increase your spending budget, the return on investment will be more then sufficent in terms of merch/ticket sales, due to increased interest in the team as they move up the standings.

    Did they not learn from the extra hype and excitement around the start of last season? I get that the experiment didn’t work out as planned, but you have to expect a few stumbles at the start. If things had gone as planned, your revenue would have been increased by a signifigant amount. This is without taking the extra revenue from a playoff appearance into account. In fact, reading about Ted Rogers in Full Count last year lead me to believe that the company expects a loss the first year after implementing a new business plan.

    In short, spend more now, earn more later. If you are going to treat this team like it’s a small market, the market will shrink to accomodate. I’ll say it again, this isn’t the Leafs, games aren’t selling out regardless of on field talent.

    • They should know better than anyone. They ran up huge deficits building out their cable and especially the wireless divisions for years.

      It’s not like they don’t have an example to follow. All they have to do is look back to the late 80′s and early 90′s and see the kind of revenues a sustainable winner brings. Upfront costs can be recouped later on just like with any successful business. Unfortunately, you don’t get a winner without sustainable investments.

      • They may have spent a lot building up wireless but they make money like the Mexican cartels on their cell plans.

      • But there is a sustained investment going on right now. Payroll went up to what 115M last year and is up to 140M this year

        • Not really…if you graph it, payroll has been steady after adjusting for inflation, with a whole bunch taken out for the last “rebuilding” phase and then put back in last season and this one. Making huge cuts and then giving them back is not investing in the team. It’s deciding you don’t really want to build a longterm winner/baseball-crazy market and managing cycles of excitement to keep the status quo. Pretty clever game to buy patience during the rebuilding phase and then use the “but we spent and didn’t win instantly!” excuse to stop spending and go into another rebuilding phase.

        • The baseball general revenue distributed to teams has gone up as well. There is no indication Rogers has pumped in any more of their money vs. the leagues.

    • The talent is there to wing now. That’s why starving the organization of the resources its needs to fill a couple of gaping holes makes no sense. And if the team is winning, it will generate increased interest across the country and thereby enhance the value of the property across all of the Rogers platforms. Rogers (and Bell) seemed to get that with the corpse that was Toronto FC. Maybe we need Leiweke running this thing.

      • The longer we can seperate the Jays from those running the Leafs, the better I will sleep at night.

        This coming from a lifetime Leaf fan who is sick of half assed attempts to be “competitive”.

  25. Where the fuck is the PLEASE BELIEVE MY FUCKING HORSESHIT speech bubble for Beeston?

  26. We are kinda assuming this was bottom up, as in the players or the management thought this was a good idea. What if the situation was AA went to Rogers and said I need X dollars and Rogers said “use the money we gave you.” If that’s the case, how much of letting AA go crazy last summer was to appease MLB and the other owners? Letting two struggling NL franchises off the hook of contracts they can’t afford, one of which seemed to have done the exact same thing Toronto did the year before (the Miami summer when everyone under the sun was signing with that team so they could say they upped payroll before dumping almost every single player they signed) and the Mets, who couldn’t afford Dickey. Alright, I’m gonna take off the tinfoil hat right now and go wallow in the misery that if someone gets hurt, there is no big star coming, because Beeston is using Stroman and Sanchez as part of his explanation of how it will work going forward, essentially tying AA’s hands on those two prospects, because Beeston is essentially saying they are the future of the franchise.

  27. man. i just feel so…low. like, what exactly is the point of being a fan of this team at this point? i’ve followed them all my life, seen all the highs, and most of the lows (i’m only 38), but this is the most frustrated i’ve been as a fan, to see the talent they have now, to KNOW that they are actually close to at least being competitive, but to watch these fucking assholes mandate ‘baseball value’ from on high just depresses the fuck right out of me. to know that this ownership is interested in the jays primarily as a business asset & cheap media content, and gives not a flying fuck about the fan, and only concerns themselves with ensuring that there is the ILLUSION of a competent team being fielded, is just sad and pathetic.

    i guess dirk knew what he was talking about.

    • Yeah my cynicism is starting to take over too. There’s all the frustrations of the off-season, the lack of a real plan, and what seems like disrespect for the fans that support this team. I know it’s a small thing, but even the choice to not sell local or craft beers at games. It all just feels like one more fuck you by ownership. My devotion to this team is starting to make me feel like a sucker.

      I want to support the Jays like I have all my life, but like many Jays fans I’m starting feel used… like I’m in some cult where the guys at the top are sleeping on beds of money while telling me how my suffering and sacrifice will all pay off… one day.

  28. So this time last year AA was all rah rah and the golden boy for the “stolen” Florida trade and the Dickey pickup. This year he comes across as though he’s been neutered by the bosses. Whether it’s “we thought we had a deal” or “We’re confident in who we have” it often seems delivered in a “But…but…it’s [maybe] still good!” sense of despair.

    I think Rogers Inc. was interested in a business model last years of “spend some and watch the fan dollars roll in” which they loved ($12 beers and all). When it’s come to continuing to spend to overcome the shortfalls on the field however, they’re now saying screw it…it presses too close to the financial bottom line in their minds. And I guess that’s fair enough in their view – it’s their business and they’re in it to make money. But as a fan it frickin’ sucks because it sure seems like this team is nearing a selloff/rebuild cycle again. So much for last year’s “We’re making a run at it in Bautista’s prime!” sell job.

    • slightly tangential, but it really irked me the other night when on the broadcast Buck and Pat were talking about the possibility of picking up Stephen Drew. Buck was derisive to the point of sounding ridiculous- to paraphrase, he basically said that Drew is an injury liability himself, and what are you going to do when Reyes returns? And besides, you want to be able to play Goins, your young 2nd baseman of the future (he said either that exactly or something very close) Oh, and there was mention of how he would be high-priced and hasn’t had spring training experience this year, blah blah

      Anyway, it infuriated me to think that the announcers were so blatantly delivering the company line- and because you know Buck and Pat are baseball guys that would love to see the team make moves like adding Drew. The fact that casual viewers/people watching at home/people listening to them could buy the company line BS about how not adding Drew is not only not a good idea but adding him would be a ridiculous idea to be scoffed at- like the Jays know what they’re doing and it’s a good plan and why would they bother- was upsetting, and I think indicative of this much larger problem everyone’s mad about.

      • baseball guys = competitive and actually care about winning

      • i listen to be reminded how painfully dull & idiotic they are. is there are a reason they approach commentating as though they are teaching the principles of baseball to an 6-yr old? why are they so baffled/excited about fairly obvious & decidedly not-new ideas (they’ve been going on about defensive shifting every time i’ve unmuted).

        if i’m being lazy, i’ll just mute it, or listen to the radio guys. buck & tabby are the fucking worst.

      • This pissed me off as well. They’ll certainly sing the praises of picking up Dioner Navarro at this point. They gobbled DeRosa’s balls all season last year and now they’re not concern with veteran presents? The whole POINT would be to take away playing time from Goins. Why on earth would that be a bad thing?

  29. So maybe I should be sad that old Ted is gone. He might have at least seen the logic in going all in at this point.

    • Perhaps, but maybe not. He wasn’t a fan of baseball, or of sports at all for that matter. He couldn’t have cared less about how the team was doing, as long as he was making money.

  30. If the front office is subtly throwing ownership under the bus to get the fans angry and on their side, today would be the day to do it. There won’t be more eyes on the Jays at any point this season.

  31. This organization / ownership / team …whatever just can’t stop being sick all over itself.
    Really tough to support.

  32. Fascinating to watch a team throw itself under a bus.
    When does Gibby pull out the Rachel Phelps-esque cut out of Guy Laurence?

  33. There’s another interpretation of that interview, which is he was just blahblahblahing it, saying nothing new, not saying Rogers has cut them off, just that he has a budget. He didn’t say he couldn’t get any more. So … the players were keen on Santana, they had a discussion about if there was anything they could do, it went nowhere, management makes an offer to Santana, fucks it up, and we lose him. Maybe that’s all the story is.

  34. The saddest thing about this is that under Beeston’s watch the Blue Jays have had a massive renaissance as a Canadian national brand with nationwide support, and with a new audience of young supporters.

    A few years ago the Rogers Centre was not only empty, but the seats were largely filled with grey haired people longing for the old days. Few people under the age of fifty even talked about the Jays any more. It was a rudderless, Toronto franchise that deliberately ran away from being identified with Canada, without much affection is Toronto, and less in the rest of Canada.

    That all changed the minute Beeston came on board – amazingly quickly. Filling the seats at the Rogers Centre with people who are actually paing for the tickets, massive TV viewership, a large travelling contingent of fans from across Canada. All that has seen the Blue Jays brand stop being a borderline embarrassment.

    Changing the course mid stream – or as Davidi puts it, trying to straddle the gap between being the Rays (which the Jays have never shown they can do) and Yankees (which they certainly can do, and did do in the 90s) is going to hit the new fanbase’s trust in the franchise again, and undo a lot of the good work that was done.

    This is a big market franchise (in some ways the biggest market franchise) that keeps on chickening out on big market investment – for just a measly $14 mill one year contract! Why?

    • This is what typical corporate short sightedness gets you. They forget what they had to do to get to where they are now. It’s simply how do we make next quarter’s bottom line look best.

      • The best way to make next quarter’s numbers look the best is to dramatically slash payroll and hoard as much of MLB’s distributed revenue as you can. This year it is 110 million (reportedly). The Rays, Marlins, Astros and other no payroll teams are turning tens of millions in profit before a seat is even sold. In fact selling seats might not even be a part of their business model. If it comes down to a gamble of spending all of that guaranteed money on the roster in hopes of filling the stands/upping the broadcast ratings in order to run in the black, versus, just keeping that money to begin with and not spending it on the field. Well we can see how many teams are doing it successfully the first way. I imagine most stockholders would heavily favour the guaranteed route to boot . At least the Marlins and Stros are doing it under the pretense of paying off their new buildings. The Rays have no excuse at all. Well I guess other than the fact that even in the playoffs the building is half empty.

  35. The president of the blue jays doesn’t/shouldn’t be “blah blah blahing” an interview with a major media source on opening day. He knows exactly what he is saying and why he wants to say it,

  36. $130M/yr should buy you a very competitive MLB roster. If AA/Beeston had come out last October saying “our operating budget is $130M per year based on revenue” then none of the off-season inactivity nor this info from Beeston is surprising.

    • but they didn’t.

      instead the talk was all about adding one or two pitchers, which would have cost them significant dollars, which presumably they knew and believed rogers willing to write the cheques.

      • Exactly. Also I am sure AA would have gone about things differently in terms of trades or moving some of the current salaries to make things fit better if he knew just how limited he was going to be from the start.

  37. Then why was it acquired in the first place? If you knew that getting it couldn’t support any further financial investment, why would AA have done it? I don’t buy it.

    He was told he could; then had the rug pulled out from under him.

  38. this could turn into a rather hilarious PR saga. definitely doesn’t seem like one happy family.

    also makes me wonder if the frustrations of riccardi in his latter years were borne out of banging his head up against a similar corporate wall.

    • Only to a point. Remember, JPR’s mandate was building on the cheap, and it’s one that he equally sold to them as doable. Unfortunately for JPR, the damage done in doing so wasn’t going to be erased by a small short-term infusion. They would have needed sustained FA money to make up for the poor farm system in the earlier years of his tenure.

  39. Would love to know who leaked this.
    The players involved?
    Their agents?
    Front office?
    Beeston himself?

    • Let’s blame Farrell.

    • yeah, me too…i’m liking the idea that this is a FO revolt of sort, that AA or beeston (via a crony) leaked it, and timed it for now purposely to embarrass ownership into loosening the purse strings.

      more plausible though is that it was leaked to ken via one of the player agents.

    • Unfortunately, it’s kind of irrelevant now. The time to spend for this season has largely come and gone and short of Drew there’s not much else to be done about it. Any kind of revolt by the front office should have taken place back in November/December when it would have caused the most outrage and embarrassed Rogers the most. Now I am not saying it isn’t bad for them now, but even if Rogers were shamed into doing something it’s too late.

  40. Anyone going to the game tonight?

    Hoping for someone to join me in a “Suck It Rogers clap-clap-clapclapclap” cheer.

    • Please no. Home openers are already such a shit-show of drunken, idiotic activity.

      • Yup. I was there last year when the dipshits in the crowd were booing Dickey (who was pitching with a newly-missing fingernail on his throwing hand) and making idiotic comments at the Boston players and dugout. It’s really creative to do the whole “Hey Ellsbury! You’re gay!” thing.

  41. It’s becoming more and more clear that Rogers needs a partner to sustain the spending needed for the Jays to consistently compete. Tim Leiweke are you listening!!!

    Bell needs content and Rogers is choking on it after the NHL deal. Forbes has the Jays value at $600mm. I think Rogers is in for about $175 including the stadium. Flip it to MLSE for the $600mm call it a win and spread the spending burden.

    • I’d FAR rather see the Jays with MLSE… at least based on what we’ve seen of Leiweke so far.

      • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Leaf_Sports_%26_Entertainment#Ownership

        … Following the transaction, the ownership structure of MLSE became divided as follows:[226]

        8047286 Canada Inc. (Rogers/Bell joint holding company) – 75%
        Rogers Communications – 50% (net ownership 37.5%)
        7680147 Canada Inc. (Bell holding company) – 50%
        BCE Inc. – 74.67% (net ownership 28%)
        BCE Master Trust Fund (investment fund of Bell’s pension plan) – 25.33% (net ownership 9.5%)[228]
        Kilmer Sports (holding company of Larry Tanenbaum) – 25%

    • Lol it’s not about needing a partner to split the costs. The money is there but the desire to spend it isn’t. The Jays for all of Rogers posturing aren’t any different from the Braves and their corporate owners Liberty Media. Liberty has short changed the Braves for years.

      It’s no different than when the Leafs were owned by the Teacher’s Pension Plan. The money was there, just not will to spend it.

      In this day of shareholder dominance, corporate ownership is generally a very shitty thing. Everything is ultimately going to lose when it comes up against the rights of the cock sucking shareholder.

      The best thing that could have happened to the Jays was for Ted Rogers to have bought the team with his own family money and left the corporate hacks out of the equation imo.

      • I dunno, it seems like Nadir “got it” eventually.

        I think a lot of this has to do with the big TV deal for hockey.

        As if there now all “Baseball what? Who gives a shit, we fucking own the biggest sport in Canada. But let’s still soak a few more bucks out of the Jays.”

      • But, as has been said multiple times, putting a winning team on the field likely means more $$$ for the company and shareholders. And in any case, I really don’t believe an extra $10 to $20 million in payroll costs is remotely material to the Rogers bottom line.

  42. Shows how much faith the players have in JA Happ

  43. This was definitely not a coincidence.

    Perhaps there are things going on behind the scenes (Colby extension, Drew contract talks, identifying of potential trade pieces) that require more money. Perhaps Beeston/AA are being handcuffed in those situations and have had it.

    Playing into that scenario they could also feel they have nothing to lose at this point and feel the risk of having this come out and not denying it is worth it.

    Otherwise, doesn’t it seem it should have come out 2 months ago or 6 months from now?

    • Imo the Colby extension will never happen now especially as the payroll for this group of players doesn’t peak until next season. Throw in a declining dollar and I would not be surprised that even if the team were to make the playoffs this year that payroll still gets capped for 2015.

      • I don’t disagree that could be the direction things could go, just looking for an explanation of why this is happening and why now.

      • To be fair, if Cletus has a good year he will get a big contract. Good centre fielders are scarce.

    • That is an insane theory, AA and Beeston have had it? The have had it with their inability to field a winning team, increase revenue and justify adding more expense to the business? So they call out the ownership who showed faith in them to increase the payroll on the hopes of revenue increases only to have their plan fail disatrously – they call out the ownership that has allowed them to keep their jobs and the team assembled after that disaster? Yep that would make a lot of sense! Actually after consideration this would be common human behaviour!

  44. If the team was owned by an individual who just dropped $130 million on 75 wins, do you think they’d be super keen to drop another 15 or 20? I think Rogers is giving AA the season to turn in around with the current payroll. If he doesn’t do so, he’ll be dismissed. Honestly, I think an individual owner woulda probably just canned him after the 75 wins.

    • An individual owner would likely have never approved the Marlins trade to begin with

    • If that individual was a multi billionaire who understood accounting and opportunity cost they probably would.

    • Rogers makes money on this team. They own the stadium and the network that broadcasts the games nationwide. They make muy dinero.

    • So they should either:

      a) Sell all the rest of the farm in wild hopes of having one successful year, or

      b) Try harder and think positive thoughts.

  45. Beeston is and always has been a complete and utter buffoon. Somehow he received a ton of credit for building the WS winners (it was 100% Pat Gillick’s doing, and ownership for spending the money).

    He gets undue credit for “recruiting” Jack Morris, Dave Winfield, Molitor, Dave Stewart, etc… Gee, was it Beeston’s charm or the fact that the Jays offered the most money and were the best team in the damn league at the time playing in front of 50,000 every game?
    No, it was Beeston’s cackling laughter that brought those dudes to Toronto.

    He went to MLB office and did jack shit for 5 years, and came back and has done likewise for the Jays. He’s a bean counter, they are a dime a dozen. Wouldn’t know a good baseball player if one kicked him in the nuts. I’m as interested in what he has to say about the Jays than I would be the guy that cleans toilets on the 200 level.

    • Agreed. I give him full credit for apparently being able to navigate politics and position himself. He is probably a capable guy in many respects. But one would think he walks on water the way he is lauded in some quarters.

  46. “I need to know now, know now could you love me again?”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2XqQ3EKsbA

  47. How does Mike Wilner spin this? Does he just avoid it all together?

    • I think he already addressed it on Baseball Central at 11 am

    • he probably knows better than to dig too deep on something like this.

    • He’s certainly not defending Beeston or Rogers in this case but he’s quite firm in defending their overall lack of spending, ie. “WHY WOULD YOU GIVE TANAKA SEVEN YEARS WHEN HE HASN’T THROWN A PITCH IN THE BIG LEAGUES”, which is fucking ridiculous, of course.

    • He actually did a great job of identifying where this may have come from without falling victim to the conspiracy theories or placating to those who sign his cheques.

      He wondered aloud that this could be a signal that Rogers clipped AA’s wings until they saw results on the field which is certainly what many of us are seeing in this.

  48. But you have to admit. Taxpayers and Gravy Train and City Hall and Taxpayers. I bet you can’t come up with a single argument to counter these points.

  49. Everyone needs to calm down and stop the unfounded insane speculations. It is pretty simple here. The team has a high payroll, they have been losing and it isnt justified to increase it more after the huge jump last year done to try to increase revenues. None of what Beeston said is BS nor needs to be speculated about.

    Seems entirely obvious that agents have exposed this story on the home opener day in order to pressure the team to increase payroll and in turn the players to get more money.

    • uh, that’s fucking dumb. the prospect cost from last year’s acquisitions make it all the more important that they don’t stop when 85% finished the job. you don’t just ‘get back’ top prospects like noah, Td’A, etc…and those players acquired? yeah, they make a shit-tonne of money, for another few years, so unless the idea is to sit on your balls and spit out .500 teams while chewing through the primes of EE, jbats & reyes, then you KEEP MAKING MOVES TO TRY TO IMPROVE THE TEAM LIKE EVERY OTHER FUCKING TEAM THAT’S TRYING TO WIN IN EVERY FUCKING SPORT.

      • Because they only won 75 games last year. If they spent more, maybe they’d only win 60!

      • Every team in every sport just bumps up payroll uncontrollably while losing and not increasing revenues to remain profitable?

        • and the team had options to improve the team without increasing payroll

        • Not uncontrollably. The Yankees are the perfect example of cheaping out last year (by their standards) only to realize it was better to spend in order to enhance both winning and revenues.

          • OK so where is the line of controllably vs uncontrollably and where are the Jays with respect to that line?

    • You tell everybody to stop with “unfounded, insane speculations”, and then you end your post with a massive conspiracy theory based on zero evidence.

      At least Paul Beeston CONFIRMED our “unfounded, insane speculations”.

      • Beeston confirmed that the front office leaked a story to the press that the players wanted to restructure deals to accommodate bringing in a player?

        At least my unfounded theory entirely makes sense and uses logic

    • Totally agreed.

  50. You all stop stop talking about Santana. He chose where he was going to sign for reasons other than money. If you want to bitch at Rogers/Beeston/AA, bitch about why we have Goins and Diaz as the starting middle infielders while Drew sits on the sidelines.

    That was the big hole that could have been relatively cheaply filled.

    On the other hand, I think this team is much better than last years. Getting rid of Arencibia is huge. Hutchison and McGowan are far more valuable than the corpse of Josh Johnson. Then Stroman and Sanchez are just around the corner.

    This team gets a few breaks and avoids critical injuries they can win 90 games.

    • “He chose where he was going to sign for reasons other than money.”

      LOL if you believe that bullshit.

      • He signed with Atlanta for the same money Toronto offered. An extra two million wasn’t going to get it done.

        • How do you know that? That doesn’t make sense anyway. We almost definitely didn’t offer more, so of course the money mattered.

          • What part of he signed elsewhere for the same money don’t you fucking understand?

            • So why didn’t we offer more? If we make an initial offer and someone else matches it, you can’t fucking cry when you don’t get the player because you didn’t make the best offer. And being in Toronto, we have to offer more.

            • Of course, the ridiculous thing about Santana wanting to pitch in the NL and in a pitcher’s ballpark to boost his value is that he was pretty fucking good in a pitcher’s ballpark in a weaker division last year and he still got screwed on the open market. He’s going to have to pitch about as well in a tougher environment in order for GMs to think higher of him.

  51. “Rosenthal says that a pair of agents had heard word of the plan, but that they were never approached by Blue Jays general manager Alex Anthopoulos.
    Santana turned down a one-year, $14 million offer from the Jays and signed with the Atlanta Braves on the same deal after the Braves lost Kris Medlen for the season with Tommy John surgery”

    It was never an idea by AA. Regardless, AA offered Santana the same contract he ended up taking elsewhere. The only surprise in any of this is that Beeston acknowledged that some players were willing to defer to get him in TO.

    From all that you guys are making some enormous leaps to conspiracy theories.
    For a forward minded group that bases more and more of it’s opinions on sabermetrics and provable theory, this all seems a bit rich.

    • FTS, I’m in total agreement with everything you’ve said on this subject. Never thought I’d say that. :)

      Seriously, I’m amazed at how much everyone wants to throw ownership/management off the bus. We don’t know everything AA tried to do in the off-season so all of this is just speculation.

  52. I cant get over the extreme negativity surrounding ownership and payroll and the angst this has created in all these posters. There is nothing to be upset about here, none of this is news. The team has a high payroll and hasn’t won so it isnt justified to raise it. Nothing to see or complain excessively about here

    • agreed. The only shocking part is the Jays players trying to re-structure their deals. (Although this happens in football all the time.)

    • We aren’t rebuilding with players like Dickey, Buehrle, Bautista, etc. making up the core of our roster, so how are we going to get better? The answer is to spend more. That’s it. Poor results are the exact to reason to spend more, not less.

      • @Matt. That makes perfect sense from a baseball perspective but not considering hte team is a business that cant bleed money. The ideal way to win is to put together a roster of players with the 10th highest payroll in MLB that wins.

        • They’re not bleeding money. They’re not even close to bleeding money. In fact, the only way to really generate more revenue than they are is to win, which requires adding more/better talent, which usually means spending more on payroll. It’s pretty simple.

        • And Beeston said precisely as much today. He literally fucking laughed at the notion of adding payroll while admitting they could do it and remain profitable.

          • I thought he was laughing at the notion that you can just keep increasing payroll at the expense of remaining profitable

            • They are incredibly profitable. Payroll could probably be around $200 million and the team would still be profitable, which is the point here. Rogers is simply lining their pockets and getting away with it, which is all the more ridiculous when you consider that winning can and will increase revenue.

      • Basically. Either they believe in the current core or they don’t… if they believe in the current core and consider last year an aberration (in terms of true talent) then they should be willing to invest a little more to replace the talent value of what we were expecting from Johnson, if they don’t believe in the current core they should be deconstructing it and begin the process of building a new one.

        The middle between those two seems to be the approach they are taking and that’s the worst approach they can take since all it involves is delaying the inevitable and seeing diminishing returns either way.

        • Or they win this year and substantially improve the business case to add payroll and do as much at the trade deadline and/or by signing Rasmus / Cabrera / Jansenn and go into the future with a competitive team with increasing payroll and revenues. Indications are they do believe in the core of the team and are giving them a chance to prove themselves.

          • Nick is right.

          • See… delaying the inevitable.

            What if they come close to getting in this year? Congratz you (Rogers) just blew a chance at playoff revenue and now have several holes to fill (eating up more money next year) meanwhile several of your guys on the wrong side of 30 are further on the wrong side of thirty and have now have diminishing value as tradeable assets and/or performing employees.

            If they actually believe in the core then they (the core) wouldn’t need to prove “themselves”. Requiring proof doesn’t sound like believers to me. More the opposite actually.

          • They’re almost definitely not going to win this year. Every other team in the division made an effort to improve and add talent. The Yankees got hammered by injuries last year just like we did, won more games than we did and still didn’t sit on their hands because they knew it wouldn’t work.

        • They’re waiting to see what they have.

          • They can’t (or rather shouldn’t) wait. Waiting is the exact opposite of what they should be doing. Now isn’t the time to hedge bold action (one way or the other) is what’s required.

            • JAM. All that is easy to say when you can absolve yourself from the considerations that this is a business that has the objective of profitability (the same as every team in the league)

              • I didn’t absolve myself from that consideration at all.

                A team that wins (is in strong consideration for a playoff spot) draws more gate, sells more merch, get’s more viewers (across all platforms). All of which increases revenue.

                That’s the “one way” the “or other” is to divest themselves of the current core in exchange for cost controlled assets (AKA Futures) which has the side benefit of cutting costs.

                Both of those take business considerations into account… I think the worst thing they could do from that perspective is what they have done… put forth a team with middling projection on a middling payroll.

  53. Peavy’s stuff is poker-straight.

    • So… is that good? Because a straight is a pretty stong hand in poker (unless you’re playing Razz).

  54. Nothing to see or complain about excessively?

    What other team in baseball has players WILLING to defer their salary to get a pitching stud? Clearly, the indication is that the money isn’t forthcoming from Rogers. Fu**, that’s amateur hour if I’ve ever heard it.

    My theory is that Rogers got all the hockey that it could eat, and baseball in 2014 went on the back burner. AA had to do with the payroll he had, which means no 2B and no depth in the backup players (Izturis, Sierra, Kratz, Diaz), and absolutely no improvements to the rotation.

    This despite the change in the competitive landscape in 2014 due to the extra $28 million in TV contract money every team was getting. Rogers is sticking that money under their mattress and telling AA that they will take that profit as a return on last year’s investment, thank you very much. Never mind that the season last year was a complete clusterf**k Marlins style due to injury and poor performance.

    And f**k, off-topic I am getting tired of Wilner’s stating that the rotation is better than Tampa’s and wouldn’t trade it away. There are so many bloody unknowns on 3/5ths of the rotation. We know Morrow can be good, even great, but we don’t know what Hutch and McGowan will achieve, at ALL. Wilner just seems to have an extra dose of what would he say — delusionality?

    So this team will be stuck with what it has — a shit rotation (with potential) and a couple of stars in Bautista and Edwin who will be begging to get traded ala Halladay come July so that they can play on a contending team (aka the Dodgers, the Cardinals) come 2014/5. The Jays will get get back some good AAA talent in return and the rebuilding will happen again. Beeston / AA and Gibby will get fired and whoever the retread will be next year (they’ll resurrect frickin’ Cito as GM) will spot that the Jays will be a playoff contender again in 2 – 3 of the next five years.

    And to finish my rant, why fuc*king Dustin McGowan on the home opener??? The stadium would have sold out if the ghost of Brian Tallet was on the mound. We get it — sentimentality, but for what? The goal is to win games, not to put someone on the mound for their first start in three years in front of 50,000 rabid fans, the Yankees and fu**ing media circus around Masahiro Tanaka.

    Sigh.

    • The Jays have the 10th highest payroll in the league while getting 75 and 74 wins the past two years. Not time to cry poor and call ownership cheap. If frustration requires venting then it should logically be towards the management who have assembled the players that are losing.

      Think myself personally that they are going to win, be in it at the deadline and will have the resources to improve the team since there is a strong business case that revenues will increase substantially when they win and make playoffs. There is not a strong business case for that at this point.

      • Nick is right.

      • Then fire the GM or the president? Neither of those things are happening, last I checked.

        • @Matt. Maybe Rogers is giving the FO time with the current roster before making that decision. The team is still talented and could win and if that happens maybe everything is groovy and otherwise someone is held accountable (or they just rebuild with same FO)

      • They sure didn’t have the 10th highest payroll in the league two years ago.

        • Exactly. This is why you cant blame Rogers for not adding payroll because they have and is is very speculative to say well they are still making piles of cash. There is the fact that they have spent less on draft and scouting etc than in the past so the expense increase isnt as high as it seems. 10M budget for this years amateur draft

      • Told you so. McGowan on the mound for the home opener was a bad idea. Should have gone with Morrow.

    • Dustin McGowan because he is among the 5 best starting options on the teams roster

  55. So Dustin McGowan starts tonight. That should be exciting to watch and hope he does well.

  56. I am not a Rogers or AA defender AT ALL, but let’s not forget that the biggest “fuckup” that caused all of this is the blue jays players taking an unmitigated shit all over the field last season. Rogers opened the coffers in 2012 and probably represented to AA that if spending some more dollars would put them over the top this season they’d do it. Then the Jays went out of won 74 fucking games. And I really wish they’d have spend a few more dollars this offseason and yes they have the money and all of that but just before we all have an aneurysm pointing our fingers at the FO/Rogers and how unfair or deceitful or whatever the fuck — losing 74 games is what caused this mess. Yeah, it’s not really fair and yeah bad luck and yeah injuries but in the real world results like that have consequences — fair or not — and it’s not just at Rogers.

    • Bingo.

      Rogers has held up their end they gave the money. Its on the players and potentially the FO who assembled them and cant blame ownership for not investing more. Payroll went up by $25M through internal raises

  57. From the previous post: “the endless corridor of funhouse mirrors that is corporate team ownership”.

    Sports ownership without the overwhelming desire to win is like running a legal ponzi scheme. Sell that promise! Sell that promise! Delivery is not contractually required :-) We appreciate your business. Really, we love it.

    This will never end. I need to accept that and progressively decrease my engagement with this fucking baseball club. Will I still need a TV? Can those things be resold? Whatever.

    • And Rogers doesnt have a desire for the Jays to win? Just considering the business there is a clear incentive to win given the potential revenue increases. WE dont know the current profitability of the team and cant evaluate the risk involved in pushing payroll higher with respect to potential gains

      • Rogers has a desire to win so long as the cost to do so results in a positive ledger.

        • That doesn’t seem to be the case. More like they don’t care what happens as long as they’re in the black.

          • Thats a load of crap you can say that about the owner of any business. No business is going to accept losing money perpetually and outside of a super rich and passionate owner who isnt worried about money all this is the exact same case as with any owner in MLB. Rogers if anything had added business incentive to win given the gains they get from winning on the broadcast side.

  58. Lol beeston was just on sportsnet and laid a dump of an interview.

    weirdly though, hazel mae was granted permission to ask some pretty tough questions, including the 2014 offseason and scott boras calling rogers cheap.

  59. It’s a business – and the bottom line is, well…the bottom line. Winning is great, but making money is better. Somehow, there’s a notion floating around that equates winning with making money. You cannot tell me that the Jays LOST money last year.
    The seats were full, and merchandise was flying off the shelves. Fan interest was up. Fine, due to injuries and shit, they didn’t do well….but Rogers sure didn’t lose money because of the team’s record. Maybe they didn’t make as much as they wanted to, that’s fair to say.
    But wins don’t automatically guarantee profits.
    The only GUARANTEED way to lose money is to not fill the obvious holes in your lineup, thereby discouraging fans from attending and therefore not putting dollars in your pocket.
    IT would be really nice to see AA or Beeston (after the inevitable firing) really rip the lid off what happened this off season. Was it merely bad luck that prevented them from getting Santana or any other free agent player? Why is Drew languishing at home someplace, when you’ve got gaping holes at second and shortstop. Goins should be learning the craft as a backup infielder…not as a starter.
    Anyways…my 2 cents.

    • The gains were gotten from the hype last year and are not sustainable unless the team wins. If they do win then revenue could escalate big time and expenses increase could follow (along with more profit than currently)

  60. Didn’t hear much about “reductive populism” when comrade Miller was running the show..Funny that.

    The humanities are alive and well through taxpayer supported education in Ontario: Yippee! OISE graduate? Shit, throw a few more buzzwords like ‘micro-aggression’ and ‘hetero-normative’ onto your CV and you could be running the TDSB!

    Anyhoo, Beeston can do no wrong in this town. He has the attention of the big players in finance and they like what he whispers into their ear holes..you don’t think he’s stayed around this long because of his baseball acumen do you?

    Perhaps it is his reductive populism..

  61. Referring to the mailbag response from you last week. I don’t seem to be so f$&@ing wrong. This team is a result of Rogers intention to run the same shit by us one more time. McGowan tipping pitches, give me a brake!

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