Bob Elliott had it earlier in his piece for the Canadian Baseball Network (and presumably the Sun, though I haven’t come across that version), but Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports also confirms that the union had signed off on the Jays’ payment deferral scheme, and stresses that “the participation of the union indicates just how close the Jays were to getting Santana. The union allows players to defer money only for a comparable benefit and entertains such tradeoffs only when contract negotiations are at an advanced stage.” He also adds that the Jays had — as they would have, in order to get union approval — restructured the contracts of players so as to give them additional money farther down the line. This is a team owned by Rogers. What a joke.

Over at the Toronto Star, Richard Griffin appropriately looks at the deferral scheme reports with as a grim sign from ownership — shit, during JaysTalk on Sunday, even Mike Wilner was full-on talking about the possibility of a massive mid-summer fire sale — and asks with exactly the kind of seriousness that’s warranted, “As for extending Colby Rasmus? Is it even possible?”

Jim Bowden of ESPN.com (Insider Only) irked some Jays fans by entertaining such thoughts last week, insisting — before the season even started — that Alex Anthopoulos ”needs to accept his current reality and make the kind of veteran-for-prospect deals he once benefited from.” Uh… I think giving some time to see how this all plays out is probably a good plan first, no?

Mark Anderson of Baseball Prospectus writes about how often he plans on seeing Aaron Sanchez this season, while his colleague CJ Whitmann talks about Sanchez and others on this week’s podcast at Blue Jays Plus. Meanwhile, Keith Law saw Sanchez (and the rest of the Fisher Cats) late last week, and continues to have reservations. Writing about it at ESPN.com (Insider only), he tells us that in the start he saw Sanchez “walked two, one on a questionable ball/strike call, but was more ‘around the plate’ than filling up the zone. I’d call it average command, average control, but I can’t project more on either unless he gets looser and smoother at release.” Part of that is due to the problems with his delivery — which KLaw has noted in the past, “and it’s not much different now” — though on the positive side he lauds the fastball and the plus curve (while calling the changeup “between average and fringe-average”).

Interesting stuff at FanGraphs, as Matt Klaassen looks — oddly — at the Rays’ extension of Yunel Escobar through the prism of team chemistry, while Mike Petriello examines Melky Cabrera and the wonder of clean health.

Great stuff that nobody actually wants to think about — especially as long as he keeps hitting the ball into the ground (still no line drives through 27 plate appearances this year) — but at Bluebird Banter, Nick Ashbourne looks at the concept of Brett Lawrie’s glove as fool’s gold. Ugh.

Elsewhere at Bluebird Banter, jays182 looks at the problems we’ve seen so far with replay. Kill it, I say, in a total 180 degree turn that’s taken me less than a week to make. Arguments with managers and tension between fans and umpires — that’s iconic baseball stuff simply disappeared and replaced with stall tactics and waiting for umpires to make a call that’s often already plain to see by anyone watching the replays in-stadium or at home on TV. I like correct calls as much as the next guy, but baseball was fine — better than that, even — for 150 years without replay, and so far the con outweighs the pro. To me, at least.

In a notebook post for BlueJays.com, Gregor Chisholm talks to Sergio Santos about his increasing comfort with the changeup, and Brett Cecil, who is trying to conserve himself for a stretch run (be it here or elsewhere, one unfortunately must wonder).

Elsewhere at BlueJays.com, Gregor has a new inbox post up.

At Sportsnet, Arden Zwelling looks at the miraculous change in the state of #SignMelkyNow Cabrera’s health, while Shi Davidi looks at what we all hope is the end to the slow start for Edwin Encarnacion.(People need a reason to break out the parrot shirt again, Eddie!)

More from Sportsnet, as Shi Davidi looks at Jonathan Diaz’s journey, Ben Nicholson-Smith tells us that J.A. Happ will make a rehab start for Buffalo (meaning the Jays are soon going to have to figure out what the hell to do with him), and also talks to Roy Halladay, who says that his roots are with this Jays, and that Philadelphia was just “the chocolate cake at the end” of the meal that was his career.

Back to the Toronto Star for some great stuff from Kerry Gillespie on the causes of injury when it comes to players like Jose Reyes.

We all caught that Jeremy Jeffress was D’d FA, and Marcus Walden was called up in his place (rather than Chad Jenkins, who the club originally wanted to select, but couldn’t because he was optioned down, and needs to be there 10 days to get a recall unless it’s in the case of injury), right? Good then. MLBTR has some details.

Hey Rogers Centre: calibrate your radar gun.

No Wave returns to take on Gregg Zaun’s silly pilot analogy.

Our old friend the Tao Of Stieb looks at Adam Lind’s ever-changing place in Blue Jays history.

Lastly, typically great stuff from Drew over at Getting Blanked, as he looks at all the promise that Masahiro Tanaka displayed during the Jays’ home opener against the Yankees on Friday. Meanwhile, Jack Moore latest Primary Sources post is outstanding as usual, this week taking a look into the PED issue from a historical perspective.

Comments (140)

  1. One might say that umpire arguments are to baseball what fights are to hockey.

    Both unnecessary but kinda fun to watch.

    • Not even close.

    • get rid of the replay already… get rid of it in all sports.

    • If they’re going to keep the replay, they need to initiate a flag system like football. If the manager disagrees with the call on the field, he should have to throw a flag from the dugout within 5 seconds (or whatever time is appropriate), and once the flag is thrown he’s obligated to challenge the call.

      This walking out slowly, looking back to the dugout and stalling until your staff sees the replay is a major drag on the game.

  2. I can’t believe we are having players defer payments so to make the team more competitive. Especially players we have signed on the cheap like Joe Bats. With AA and Beaston making comments that seem in line with that probably being the case ( By not out right denying it) What does this do to the reputation of the Jays to other free agents looking to come here? It makes us look like some mickey mouse club organization who stepped up to the big boys table but only brought our lunch money. Truly embarassing! I don’t care how rich rogers is I understand that this is a business and we need to run it like that, but as a business we need to put actual cost benefit analysis behind the actions we take. Ervin Santana would have been a win but at the cost of all this deferral bull shit I think it would have still been considered an embarassment and its rediculous that these High Paid Upper Management types couldn’t see it as a liability from the beginning. AA needs more money so he doesn’t go to upper management , Beaston does…….. Is this all Paul does? Is this the cushiest job in the world? Does he simply come up with a number that was probably emailed to him from up above and says there AA do what you can….. ” I’m tired put toooo much work in today, going home for a nap”………….. UGH

    • The real shitty thing is that baseball operations clearly thought this was a deal worth doing, and ownership wasn’t interested in listening.

      • Yeah I think AA knew we had Santana right where we wanted him and was like look I told you I could get him for cheap now lets get this moving forward and Ownership was like fuck it………. everyone has been blasting AA for not doing the right thing but as you can see he is literally doing everything possible to get this team better, his job depends on it. The poor guy now is left walking a tight rope and hoping the wind stays at his back. We should have all seen through the visage of Ownership being the good guys willing to do what it takes. AA has to pay them lip service all the time and now he is probably laughing because finally there is something out there that Rogers won’t be able to avoid sticking to them.

      • Well, this is an interesting facet of this argument right – AA and Beeston insist, and insisted in the face of the deferral reports – that “ownership has never told us no”. Well, if this deferral nonsense became something necessary in order to free up the money that was offered to Santana (and apparently, Burnett before that), then either Beeston didn’t ask ownership at all and hatched this scheme on his own, or they went cap-in-hand to Rogers and were refused (and are lying about it – I doubt this though, because covering that up wouldn’t be consistent with the kind of public shaming of Rogers that is happening right now by corroborating the report).

        So, you have to assume that Beeston was told early in the off-season “you’re not to spend a dime more than $x”, and so he didn’t go back to them when Burnett and Santana emerged as free agents that could land here. Now, if the deferral plot was only conceived when Santana announced he was looking for a one year deal, did the approval needed by the Union for the deferrals hold up the deal long enough that it went into the Sunday, the day Kris Medlen got hurt? If the Jays could have had the deal done and dusted on the Saturday if they were using Rogers’ money, and only lost out because of the deferral stuff, that sucks. A lot.

        • “Well, this is an interesting facet of this argument right – AA and Beeston insist, and insisted in the face of the deferral reports – that “ownership has never told us no”

          It’s not lying if it’s understood you’re not to ask.

        • @Julius. Or Beeston, as the President of the organization responsible for its financial health, made the judgement on his own to not increase payroll and Rogers has absolutely nothing to do with this payroll freeze. Objectively it is hard to blame him, they made their all in play last offseason but didnt win and so revenue didnt increase as anticipated – if they had won then maybe Beeston would be going to ownership to approve a higher budget given the increased revenue

          • How the fuck do you figure that revenue didn’t increase, cockgobbler?

            • It increased for the first half or two thirds of the season. Do you expect that those revenues will be sustained if the team doesnt win this year?

      • The best thing that comes out of this (trying to find a silver lining), is it shines the truth on where blame lies, which most likely knew already.

        • And where does blame lie and how does any of this objectively shine light on that?

          The front office put the team on the field that has the 10th highest payroll in MLB. If they don’t win with that then blame is clearly on front office whether the were allowed to jack the budget up even higher or not.

    • Hey, the Jays aren’t Mickey Mouse until Gretzky says so…right New Jersey?

    • im in the camp that thinks that a payroll twice as large as Tampa’s is big enough to allow this management team to prove what it is made of..

      • If you want to start sucking the bottom of the AL eastfor 8-10 years straight then go ahead.

        It’s stupid how people keep refering to the Ray’s model to show how low payroll can be used, yes of course it can work, but it requires a lot of years of sacrifice and a lot of luck.

        • Price and Longo are the only 1st rounders contributing to the Rays. While they are obviously a big part of the success, it is WAY too simplistic to say that the Rays sucked for a decade, racked up a huge number of high picks and are now reaping the benefits caused by the sucking. There is seriously smart drafting/developing strategy in there.

          • Evan Longoria the third pick overall in 2006 says hello.

            I do agree that Tampa is the exception to the rule, but how many times do you find pure genius ?

  3. As if seeing Farrell winning the WS wasn’t embarassing enough – this Rogers crap is next level…

  4. Does he simply come up with a number that was probably emailed t–

    Let me stop you here: no.

    • Oh look, its our self-appointed insider expert, the video-game-wanking spaz. This Rogers shit is simply indefensible, like your misfit ass. Beeston is a fucking no-talent political operator, a professional schmoozeball. You think he doesn’t know who the fuck he’s working for? Fucking apologists like you are enablers (I said it) of this shit. You really think he didn’t make promises he couldn’t keep before the 2013 offseason? Think for once, jackoff.

  5. Well, the actions taken by Rogers shouldn’t be a surprise. It’s a publicly traded company. Is it bullshit as far as us fans are concerned? Absolutely! Yet, Rogers is first and foremost obligated to shareholders. Frankly, if I owned Rogers stock, I’d be pretty pissed that money was going into the Jays. Profit margins in sports aren’t as big as people think. Really, the Jays are a drain on resources from a purely corporate perspective.

    • yeah my answer with this idea of holding onto an asset that people seem to say creates little profit and or is a money pit would be as a share holder ITS A 600 Million dollar unprofitable assett you bought for 125 million then SELL IT!!! Rogers would sell it if they weren’t making any money from it so there is obviously so revenues are values that aren’t correctly stipulated in the books because content is being sold at below market rates. They kind of own a full supply chain and are arguing that the raw material can’t go up in quality because the buyers aren’t paying high enough prices, BUT guess what they are the buyers too and the ones who bring it to your desktop, door step, paper and notify you on your cell phone as long as your paying for the the 3 different stations their distributing it on

    • Cheap no-bid content for their cable channels. Look at what they paid for very similar live event programming a few months ago. You can’t look at the Jays and what they’re able to make without acknowledging how intertwined they are in this. If they were able to actually auction off their TV rights like a club without the “special” relationship (or simply raked in the TV money as well, like a club that owns the TV network, rather than vice versa), it becomes obvious pretty quickly that what you’re saying is nonsense.

      That said, I do agree that sports teams aren’t as profitable as people sometimes think, at least in terms of year to year revenue. Equity always rising, though. Bought for $120M in 2001, Bloomberg valued them at $950M in 2013.

      • Actually, what you’re saying is nonsense. Do you think shareholders care about any of that? What they see is a part of Rogers with high costs with low returns. Efficiency ratios matter, not fan satisfaction.

        • Ding Dong: the argument is simply that the ‘revenues’ stated by Rogers aren’t representative of the true value the Jays bring to them on a corporate level, because there is NO accounting for the money that isn’t being generated in broadcast rights. you know that there’s a reason why the LA teams, the rangers, etc. are able to have such huge payrolls and still be profitable, right? if you don’t, it’s because they’re taking in hundreds of millions in broadcast rights media companies (like, say, a Rogers) pays them. the jays get no such profit/revenue, because Rogers basically pays the team nada to broadcast, which is probably the primary reason they are the owners of this team in the first place. if the jays weren’t good for Rogers’ bottom line, why would they still own them, when there would be a definite profit made by selling them?

          • @yertu. There is accounting for the broadcast revenue isn’t there? Thought at least from MLB perspective it is factored in for revenue sharing. The Jays arent to only team owned by a cable company

        • Huh? Of course shareholders care about shareholders’ equity.

        • Wow, a clown parade last night. Because investors aren’t creatures of emotion – efficiency, eh? Just shut the fuck up.

      • Sell to MLSE!!!! As a sub-50% equity holding neither Bell or Rogers have to report any of the yearly p/l, only material changes in the VALUE OF THE EQUITY. Which as exclusive content only goes UP!!! It’s such an obvious thing that has to happen that it HAS TO HAPPEN!!!

    • “Jays are a drain on resources from a purely corporate perspective”

      Then why the fuck did they purchase them?!

    • This simply isn’t true. If run like a true large market team, which does entail a certain amount of risk, they’d be making a lot more money.

      People have just became so inured to mediocrity they just don’t know any better.

      • @Longhorn. You are making the assumption that running the team like a large market team guarantees winning. This is not the case. In JP era payroll went up in mid 2000s and was run like large market and they didnt win. We are witnessing this again and the book is still out on if they can win. How high does payroll need to be before the team is considered to be run like a large market. The Yanks, Sox and Dodgers are exceptions other teams cant just add to payroll over and over to cover every hole without limit

        • Nick give me 5 years of a top 5 payroll and then you’d see the results, this jerking back and forth barely getting into the top 10 , before retreating doesn’t cut it.

          The problem is all the bean counters can’t stomach the inherent risk associated with sports.

          Just ask a Yankee or Red Sox fan how they feel about always being near the top of the payroll heap.

          To clarify, the Jays payroll in 2008 , the last for Ricciardi , was # 12 overall.

          • They arent retreating the payroll went up by $25M this year and it is pretty much the same team as last year

  6. Wow somebody hasn’t been reading about the huge mega cable deals being signed

  7. After watching that sportsnet feature on AA, the disgust I have for rogers and beeston (lies) is beyond words. Beeston is a fucking dinosaur that should retire and was on the coattails of gillick I believe all those years. He says our moves last year are dumb now when they were genious a year ago?? No, theyre dumb now because you and fucking rogers havent backed it up. Can rogers just sell the team? We will never see a winning team owned by a corporation. Especially one like rogers whose incompetence has no limits. Cant mix profits with winning.

    • Think I’m going to do a post on that piece rebutting/contextualizing what’s being said minute-by-minute. Enough meat in there for that, you think? Because I had basically the reaction you did within the first 30 seconds.

      • I’m probably being hopelessly naive but wouldn’t putting a competitive team on the field every year bring in bigger profits. We have a singular market in a country that is desperate for a contending team in any sport.
        I strongly believe that we are a big market team that has the capability to contend but Rogers has a myopic financial strangle hold on this team. One thing that stood out this year was the CEO for the Yankees explaining to the media that by not spending they stand to lose millions. If all of the big market privately owned teams can see the benefits of piecing together a competitive team and yet were on a financial tether it doesn’t speak well for the Rogers brain trust.
        I concur with afdg that it was the most depressing and disgusting interview I have watched. The only good from this I can see is Rogers a consumer based company will strongly hate the negative publicity they are receiving. Somebody on that corporate food chain is definitely in the hot seat at present. This leak smacks of a political battle that the new CEO could have been entirely unaware of.
        Let’s hope this works out in the Jays favor and we can put this cock sucker to bed cause I can’t take much more of this bullshit.

        • From a common sense standpoint, yes.

          From an oligopolistic corporate media giant standpoint, apparently not.

        • I guess the only hope I have is that the new CEO is moving slowly, checking out the lay of the land so to speak, before spending anymore money on baseball.

          They’ve really over- extended themselves with the hockey deal and I would hope this is a just a temporary blip in restraint.
          If it isn’t , Im afraid it’ll be hard for me to support such a team.

      • Do it!
        Start with JP saying how sad everyone was when he left….

      • What the fuck was Beeston’s role in that piece anyway? He was like a retarded version of Philip Seymour Hoffman in Almost Famous. Spouting shit that was couched as wisdom but was like a hobo rambling on the street.

  8. I just don’t agree with the reasoning of completely getting rid of replay because umpire/manager arguments are “entertaining”. The stalling, I’ll give you, but you’re telling me they won’t come up with a more streamlined way of doing for next season? You have that little faith?

    I roll my eyes each time a manager comes out to argue, especially if the ump really did blow the call because I know not a single second of that argument did anything to help add to the fact the ump is defending a dumb fucking call. Inversely watching a manager argue call that went against his team but was the right call is equally as stupid and not fun to watch at all

    • Fair enough. I disagree, and I do have such little faith, but I get your side of it entirely.

  9. Question I’m too lazy to research the answer to myself: How often have players banded together and gotten union approval for deferral schemes in the past?

    For Rogers to get this ridiculously miserly after last year’s moves truly baffles me. They’re in this deep–and maybe this is the optimist in me talking–and they decide the team is so horrible that it has no chance of contending for a playoff spot this year or next, so horrible that it’s not worth sinking another ten or twenty million in one or two year contracts for a chance to contend? I have to assume a playoff team is worth something, revenue-wise, to Rogers? No? Because blowing it up now when they still have a solid core–again, my optimism–really makes absolutely no sense to me. Though I guess I just answered my own questions: Yup, they think it’s that shitty.

  10. I don’t get why the umpires even talk to the manager. They should just ask if they want to challenge or.not. If not, no stalling just fuck off.

    I think MLB will end up limiting umpire visits like pitcher visits.

  11. I’d like to see a ranking of MLB ownership in terms of douchiness.

  12. In case anyone thinks otherwise, deferring salary is actually smart for players. Interest is paid on the deferred money. And with how often athletes end up bankrupt, having money saved a little longer for you never hurts.

    It still is painfully stupid and sad of Rogers to resort to it.

    • How often athletes end up bankrupt? Any stats to support this or just a couple Curt Schilling like horror stories biasing your view here?

      I work in the finance industry and I can all but guarantee that your average Joe ends up bankrupt much more oftenthan your average multimillionaire athlete.

      Also interest rates are crap right now. Unless the Jays are paying a significant premium on current rates for this deferred money (which they could be…. But doubtful as it would cost the team quite a bit more) the players are likely better off taking cash now and investing it in something else.

      This was definitely a sacrifice by the players. No financial benefit to them at all from this move.

      • Yes, I would think that your average Joe who makes $50-80k a year might face bankruptcy more often that someone who earns $30-400 million over the course of a 10 or 20 year career. Thanks for that brilliant insight.

        • Yeah but you think wrong.


          A guy making 50k a year can only get in so much trouble. He can’t find 5 hot women to take his money. He can’t get a 2M mortgage. He can’t buy a Bentley with cash and ignore the future insurance and maintenance costs.

          Come on guys this isn’t hard to wrap your head around.

        • sons, FWIW I was agreeing with you although I didn’t word it very well. Of course there are more absolute bankruptcies among regular people, because there are more of us, but pro athletes are certainly more prone to it, per capita.

          • Ah fair enough. All I’m really saying is that this is not some great humanitarian thing for the players – they get paid interest on the money. And Rogers is hardly an unsafe debtor.

            The problem with all this is the optics whereby Rogers has clearly put a very real budget on the team. The days of “we want the money and we go ask for it” seem to be over.

      • Yeah I’m in HNW and I stand by it. Upwards of half of all lotto winners ultimately file BK. As for athletes, the first, obvious, thing to recognize is that most “only” make a few million. Other sports are worse, but even in baseball, a career of more than a decade is rare.

        A few million buys you a couple nice houses and a couple nice cars. That’s it. By 40 you can’t even afford the property tax.

        For baseball it is said to be 4x more likely than with the average citizen. Football: 78%.


      • I would guess they’d pay around 6%—a significant premium over current interest rates. So there is a benefit to the players; it’s just not huge. The whole thing reeks of fucking stupid short-sighted accounting, though; Rogers really shouldn’t care much when they pay the money if the amount, time-adjusted, is the same.

  13. In light of recent events, I am allowed to feel sorry for AA now?

    • NO. He’s part of the problem. Anthopoulos made all those trades and acquired all those players that raised the payroll to 135 to 140 million. He increased the payroll demonstrably with some pretty shitty results. If you were Rogers why would you let Anthopoulos make another mistake wasting their money. Something tells me that someone at Rogers believes that they can finish in last place spending 80 million dollars a year instead of spending what they are now.

      • We’ll have to agree to disagree.

        I personally think it’s kind of hard to do your job when you’ve got your boss planning the parade route and the corporation that pays the bills turning the tap off. AA wasn’t perfect, but if that’s the expectation, he’s doomed to fail.

      • I disagree.

        I think that if AA made those trades with the expectation that payroll would be there if they needed to to add to the core, which Rogers subsequently took away from him, then it’s not entirely his fault.

        You can make an argument that he should have/could have seen this coming based on past history, but I think if he went to ownership to get approval for the trade and after giving payroll figures was told “well, you’re going to have exactly $0 in payroll room going forward” then I’d be surprised if he’d go through with it.

        • The money was there when Anthopoulos needed it last year. The problem is that he constructed a last place team NOT a playoff contending team. The payroll is in the top 10 right now there are no excuses because they are not spending peanuts right now. Rogers are not the cheapest owners but they are not the most spendthrift either. With this payroll many other teams could definitely compete. Under Anthopoulos, they have done nothing of the sort. Losing Rajai and DeRosa created more holes than last year and look at where they are now. Very little speed,blah clutch hitting and the inability to score more than 5 runs. It’s a small sample size but it’s not an encouraging one thus far.

          another thing that puzzles me is keeping Pete Walker. Why would a team that had such horrid starting pitching last year stay with its pitching coach. This is where Anthopoulos seems rather clueless. The hitting coach was changed but hitting was not their major issue,pitching was.

          The next Jays’ GM needs to some outside the organization because this one has failed. They need a Dan Duquette/Dombrowski type whose been there before and knows how to construct a team. Also one that knows how to pick the right manager for the right team. Both Farrell and Gibbons were very shitty choices under Anthopoulo’s watch. Oddly enough Farrell was a bad choice for TO but a great choice in Boston. Then again their GM and organization is far better than the Jays’. A middling manager like Farrell(who had chemistry with much of the team during Francona’s years) could get away with a lot more with better players and a better organization.

    • Yup.

  14. So what your saying is that we now have a good team that with a couple of additions that could be a great team and we stop now?

    • Basically ,yes.

    • No guarantee the team will be great with a couple additions. Where is the limit in terms of spending uncontrollably.

      This blaming Rogers while letting AA off the hook is ridiculous. The team has a top ten payroll and got 75 wins last year. Accountability is not on Rogers it is on the front office. Beeston decided they cant justify payroll increase after the debacle of last year and for good reason , we dont know the teams bottom line. Instead of crying poor why not vent your frustration at the front office who are the ones with sole responsibility of the quality of the team on the field.

      • Yeah. If you’re looking for guarantees, though, baseball probably isn’t your thing.

        • The point is there needs to be some limit on acquisitions balancing risk and reward. The Jays are not the Yankees. Uncontrolled spending is not going to happen especially coming off a 75 win season

  15. As someone who generally is willing to piss on Rogers and believes that firing AA wouldn’t solve a thing, I can’t say that I have as much hate for Rogers “possibly” pulling the rug on AA this past offseason.

    Payroll is up around another $20 million and into the top 10 in baseball.

    While the Jays didn’t spend on free agents this offseason, they also didn’t gut the team Marlins style either.

    Even though AA & Beeston’s answers about this deferral stuff are ambiguous, it appears to have been a player-initiated idea.

    And as far as we know, the money was there for a 1 year Santana or Burnett type midrotation arm.

    I can’t necessarily disagree with Rogers if they want to see a better return on the field before raising the payroll past $150-160 million.

    And while I continue to support AA and don’t believe firing him would get this team any closer to a playoff spot, he didn’t leave himself any outs if the team failed to meet expectations last year.

    • Top 10 in baseball is meaningless. Stop this fallacious logic. We are in the AL East for one thing. And we are middle of the pack for payroll in the ALE.

      And that’s just the easiest place to start.

      • Where exactly is the fallacious logic?

        And the Blue Jays are not only fighting for playoff spots with ALE teams.

        What reason do Rogers have for going any higher without a ROI?

        And it appears that they were willing to spend around $15 million on Johnson, Burnett or Santana if any of it made sense and/or the player was willing to come to Toronto.

        Rogers didn’t cut payroll here.

        I’m sure I’ll be glad to make them the villain again in the near future. But not at the moment.

        I don’t think fans are necessarily wrong to expect AA to have managed his payroll more efficiently and to have maintained the flexibility which was one of his calling cards two years ago.

        That’s not to say I want AA gone or that the Jays can’t contend if a couple of players (pitchers) emerge.

        If AA didn’t leave himself any others – and that may be the case – I’m not just going to reflexively piss on Rogers.

        • *outs, not ‘others’

        • The fallacy is any idea that you are “owed” by the gods or baseball or AA or whatever a direct linear result to your investment.

          You aren’t buying a mutual fund, same as everyone else on your street owns. You are paying guys to swing at a ball and hit it hard, and hope it isn’t hit hard right at someone. And that he doesn’t break his ankle tripping over first base.

          Top 10 means little when only one team can win. And when you play half your games against teams in your division that not only have a payroll 50M higher, but have total commitments about 3 times yours.

      • @sons. Wow. Top ten in MLB is meaningless! Top ten payroll for a 75 win team in a market where people are obsessed with hockey not baseball. Would a $300M payroll be meaningless?

        • @Nick I think you missed the beginning of the conversation.

          I’m saying that having a top 10 salary doesn’t mean you are obligated to win a World Series or even make the playoffs. It’s a game. And salaries and skill and health are quite variable.

          We could have Yunel instead of Escobar and be better at the moment on the field and suddenly be 15th highest payroll and middle of the pack.

          I don’t expect Rogers to sign every Cano and Tanaka out there. But to take on what they did last year and not give this one more “full” shot based on some goofy adage about “no more money until I see results” is stupid. Is AA supposed to jump down to the field and pitch? Rogers is asking for something that no one but God can provide: a guaranteed outcome in a competitive sport with 50+ players.

    • What is really dumb about it is that Rogers spent the money and then what – expected immediate championships? Last year didn’t go as planned. So instead of having some patience they do the most Toronto thing ever and panic, cancel the plan, start the blame game and call for the firing of the GM.

    • Didn’t every MLB team get an extra $35 million free last year to do with what they please.
      So really Rogers didn’t spend much of anything extra last year.
      This is the first year its coming out of there pocket.

  16. Did anyone happen to listen to Mccown at around 3:30? He briefly touched on this ridiculous situation for a few minutes. He said he talked to Beeston privately and AA wanted to sign Santana but Beeston thought it was a huge overpay and wouldn’t go to Rogers for the cash. He liked their internal options better. So Rogers played no role in the decision.

    The interesting part of it was that he said it was only about Santana being an overpay. Apparently Beeston told Mccown that if it was Verlander for $30 million he’d have done it in a minute.

    What i find shocking about this is the Verlander comment. I guess he was trying to make a point about the money being there for a permium player. The problem is a guy like Verlander would never be available on a 1 year deal. So take that $30million and multiply it by 6 or 7. Would Beeston still be in then. Or assume a premium Velander-like pitcher is available on a on a one year deal. Beeston would have to get in line behind at least 3 other clubs or offer a lot more than market. Would he like that deal?

    My take away from this supposed conversation (mccown sounded a little uncomfortable by the time he said the discussion happened off air) is that the only way Beeston will sign a premium free agent is if he can get one with a term that is unrealistic for the palyer and a price that is unrealistic to the market. Awesome!!!

    • I’m speechless.

    • If that’s true, then Beeston has way too much power; and it stands to reason Beeston is the key reason the Jays haven’t been players in the FA market during AA’s tenure.

      In which case, “Fire Beeston” would not be entirely inappropriate.

    • I thought that this may be the case when listening to AA’s interview last friday. If you read between the lines (or are a conspiracy theorist/sick of Jays BS), When McCowan asked if they had gone to Rogers for the money with this, AA said “I dont go to Rogers, I go to Paul”. That combined with McCowan’s implied knowledge that Beeston thought Santana wasnt worth the $14mil/Yr, makes you wonder if AA was just told no, and to go sit in the corner. McCowan says he intends to go to the Rogers Media execs he has access to (Pelley?) to ask if they were asked for the money, or if Beeston never came to them. Stay tuned…there is still a lot of this story left to unfold.

      • There are elements of the story that have a legitimate ring to them and if that’s the pecking order, ( ie, AA goes to Beeston and Beeston goes to Rogers), I don’t see the use of Beeston, period.

        His salary could be put to better use acquiring a decent SP. I think I remember he only took the job in the initial instance on a temporary basis. …time’s up.

  17. This whole situation is just fucked. Just. Fucked.

    The whole deferral thing is fucking huge. It creates so many new questions. I don’t even know where to begin…

    How fucking embarassing to be a Jays fan right now. Our cheap fuck owners fucked us hard again.

    Why make last years trade(s)? Colby resigning, never? WTF….itsone thing to build a sustainably competitive team through draft and its another to trade all those assets away and then do nothing with the expensive pieces.

    Mid-season fire sale? Again, just wasn’t a possibility in my min until now….it blows.

    Better hope for the good start even more now, eh?

  18. Looks like an elbow injury for Matt Moore. Remind anyone of June 2012?


  19. Matt Moore removed from his start today with an apparent upper body (read: arm) injury. threw a pitch and immediately grimaced. Given that he’s lost a few ticks on his fastball since his rookie season, i’d think this injury is pretty serious.

  20. Some are born great, while others have greatness thrust into them.

    • Baseball is 90 percent mental, the other half is physical.
      -Yogi Berra
      A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided by 9 innings.
      -Earl Wilson
      Baseball is like a church.Many attend,few understand.
      – Leo Durocher
      I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don’t think about it is when I’m playing it.
      -Carl Yastrzenski
      I’d walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball
      -Pete Rose

    • Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you.

  21. This will make an interesting case study one year.,in how a company fucked away tons of built up goodwill ( momentum or momo) casuing a drop in Enterprise value.
    Attendance was up over 5000 a game last year even though they were out of it by June. Imagine if those September games against the east teams meant something!
    Well, we only got 34k for a Sunday game with the Yanks vs the usual 40k plus.They are only going to get 14k or so for these 3 vs the Astros based on advamce sales-people are pissed!
    So, a 5k dropoff for 80 games or so costs them about 40 million$ inaddition to the shit PR and potential loss of value and goodwill of FAs and their own players.I dunno, just find it incredibly dumb and shortsighted. But then I worked in corps for over 30 years so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at corporate myopic malfeasance. So, they could have spent the 40m I suspect they may now lose on upgrading the talent level of the club to protect the EV and their precious shareholder price but have chosen not to.
    I hope they play well in April/MAy as I don’t want to play prospect porn for another 5 years if they start bailing already. Fuck that.
    Forward Soviet!

    • Dwight Smith Jr smacked 2 HRS the other night !

    • The company didnt piss away all the good will their product did by winning only 75 games last year. Everything you say is the reason why they cant bump payroll – lets be happy the havent cut payroll yet and are giving the team a chance to win.

      • Cut payroll? As the Yanks and Red Sox take on 500 or 600M thanks to all the TV money? Cut payroll after attendance and ratings were up? Cut payroll when sports media is being valued higher than ever? Cut payroll when we have several highly paid veterans that will be gone in a year or two regardless? Cut payroll when draft money and international signing money is capped and way lower than it was in previous years?

        Cut payroll because you’re sad your team didn’t just “try harder” and “be healthier” and “win more”?


  22. I am glad I’m not the only one thinking 10 seconds is a good amount of time in which you need to launch the challenge even if the other pitcher is quick to the rubber.

    One other thought would be to have three challenges to use maximum. That way a manager can gamble with the first one and still have one if needed and one more in case of extra innings. Again, ten seconds max to launch challenge.

    • I like it. It’d save that phoney chat crap before the thumbs up or down signal. That sucks the big one.

  23. Idiots.

    Lawrie will come around, you can see it’s purely a timing issue.
    If you have any knowledge of ball.
    If you don’t then you’re the same fuckheads who thought Chris Carpenter sucked.

    When Melky was barrelling any pitch that came across the plate last year but doing it with only arms I listened to the same fuckheads who said Melky was done, could only hit with roids. Anyone who knows the game could see his eye-hand was still first world he just wasn’t transferring his weight. We find out later it’s nothing, just has a grapefruit growing on his spine.

    But go ahead, write him off. You’re the same fucking idiots that make it so that no hockey player can play in Toronto without a shrink and a restraining order.

    Lawrie is a star that’s stuggeling, if you fucking meat sacks can’t see it then

    • eat my ass.

      Really tired of the shit.

      • And you know what, I get how every fan is entitled to their opinion.
        Just realize that being in the toronto media mecca that hasn’t had a hockey title since 67, and a pennant since 93, some of it can be attributed to the filth that gets funnelled from the fans.

        Especially talking to you shit bags that were tweeting the wife of James Reimer.

        Fucking Dissapointing.

    • I’m not worried about Lawrie. I think he’ll be great. Ground balls are better than strike outs or pop-ups. At least he is making some contact. Ground balls become line drives pretty easily.

    • I think Lawrie is getting screwed a bit by developmental problems with the Jays. They have totally calmed down his movement and his swing and surprise his timing is way off. These adjustments should not be happening in the MLB, if they felt the need to change his swing it should have been done before he was called up.

      When does he adjust and get timing back (potentially never??) At what point do you say Lawrie go back to head bobbing excessive movement red bull maniac? Everyone saying Lawrie looking great with lack of movement while the guy cant hit the ball hard anymore so the reality is he is not looking great at all with these adjustments he isnt looking great at all now – it is all about the result .

      • Yeah, changing your swing while already at the Major League Level never works out well. It totally ruined Jose Bautista.

        • It’s not just a baseball thing (btw they do it quite often.) Golfers change their swing (need I mention Tiger?) on a regular basis.

        • Its not the same as Bautista or Encarnacion. They were alraedy mature players when they revamped their swings. Lawrie is now getting things changed at a basic level with the remaining still stuff. If the organization thought he needs to be calmer at the palte to have long term success they should have developed that before he is in MLB – not to mention learning a new position in rookie year in MLB.

      • This is fucking stupid. He is 24 years old. Believe it or not, all of seven months older than Anthony Gose.

        Every damn hitter in the bigs tinkers with his swing at some point. They’re not robots.

        • OK so then by happy with Lawrie hitting groundballs and batting under 200 for who knows how long into the year and say its all good because players always tinker with their swings

          • Yes, I’m sure Lawrie will hit for a -15 wRC+ for the rest of the season.

          • They’ve played 7 games. SEVEN.

            FWIW, Lawrie looked awesome in spring training.

          • For FFS, ick, he has proven he can hit the ball, unlike say, Goins. If this was the week of Jne 17-24th or whatever, people would just say he is in a slump. Guess what: they all get slumps

  24. Before I didn’t pay much mind to what Scott Boras had to say about Jays’ ownership a few weeks ago. It’s Scott Boras, and he simply seemed to only want his clients to have a contract. Perhaps that’s still true. But now, I think he was actually right on another level that ownership is a bunch of cheap fucks.

  25. Hey Stoet where do you get your line drive/ ground ball data from? I’m curious as to what Lawries single in the 9th off Robertson was classified as

  26. Not baseball related directly.. but Toronto and advance stats related for sure:


  27. It’s clear now that Beeston and Rogers are lying and AA will be the fall guy. I think baseball people know this and AA will fall on his feet somewhere. Perhaps be the next GM of the Yankees? The Jays will never be competitive on an annual basis with Rogers owning the team. Rogers needs to fund them to the luxury tax and beyond if necessary or sell. Since they never will, sell. It’s apparent that half assing it will not make them winners. I felt so strong about this I called earlier and cancelled my home and cell phone and gave the above as the reasons. I hope others do the same.

    • Rogers gave Beeston and AA a budget to work with. I would think they knew all offseason what the magic number was and chose not to free up money until too late. Trading two relievers and Colby almost gets you there financially but I don’t know if the team is better with Ervin minus Colby and two back end pitchers. I think they are in a wait and see mode until the all star break and then they will sell off players like Happ, Rasmus, Melky, Jansen etc. if they aren’t in the hunt. If they are in within reach of a playoff spot, I think money will become available. In fairness to Rogers. Money was given last year, it didn’t work. I don’t think they wanted to see more prospect and money tossed away unless this team is legit. If this team is a playoff team with Ervin Santana then they sure as hell will be close half way through the season without him.

    • Unfortunately I feel that Rogers has become the fall guy. Ownership has ponied up the required resources to be competitive. The quality of the team is enitirely on the baseball operations group.

      AA become the GM of Yankees!! Why in the world do you think the Yankees would want AA as a GM. His track record is very bad when looked at objectively.

      • If AA was given a budget like the Dodgers and then the team stunk, then your argument has merit. But the fact is that the Blue Jays have a market covering 33+ million people, which makes it one of the richest in all of baseball. Their payroll is only 10th or 11th.

        The Blue Jays are a cash cow and Rogers are gratefully sucking it dry to pay for their other sports properties, which now includes broadcasting NHL games.

        • But population does not reflect fanbase, there simply are not nearly as many baseball fans per capita in Canada and USA. Ontario maybe somewhat close.

          More than half the teams in the league have operated under similar payroll restrictions as the Jays. The Jays lack of performance on the field has more to do with FO not putting players on the field that win than ownership.

          This FO had a direction to build from within, were seemingly doing a great job of it then totally abondoned ship, acquired highly paid players with substantial risk and are now in a sort of no man’s land.

          Roger’s has a shit tonne of incentive for the Jays to win from a financial perspective because of the potential revenue gains (which are proven in the market). There is no reason that they wouldn’t pursue that which they did last offseason as well as in 200s with JP. Let’s hope it works out this time and payroll can increase

          • To realistically have a shot at winning 95 games, the Jays would have to bump payroll by 60-75 million. ( 30 mil for 2 starters, another 10-15 for a decent 2b). Or in ROI terms, 1.76 million for every win.

            Now consider the alternative. Spend just enough to field a winning team (130 mil for 88 wins), and now the salary/win ratio is 1.48.

            If you were a senior Rogers manager would you want to be the one to ask Nadir Mohammed for an extra 60-75 million, knowing that there is no guarantee that the extra cash would even result in a playoff spot? And would you make that ask knowing your job is on the line?

            The only shit-tonne incentive that exists is for the corporate shirts to protect their bonus and arses at all costs. Vive le Toronto Expos!

            • They dont need to spend that much to win. If they had continued along the plan they started on developing homegrown talent they could have supplemented that cheap talent once in MLB FAs. Instead they bailed on the plan, traded in house talent for expensive veterans and are now caught in between with the fan base saying it isnt their fault you need to spend more money to win. Total BS, the FO dropped the ball after getting a hard on for Johnson, Reyes and what bautista and EE were unexpectedly doing. Everyone to this day ridicules the Marlins and feels sorry for their fans. Well after their firesale they are already looking to be competitive and are set to win a third world series again in the near future whilst the Jays have not made the playoffs in that stretch. And they basically got everything the Jays gave them for less than Johonson & Bonafacio since they signed Reyes and Buehrle to back loaded deals and severly under paid them for the one year they did play there.

  28. I’m really interested to see how the Jays will fair against a non premium LH starter tonight in Oberholtzer. I’m cautiously optimistic that bats could have a good night.

    .500ish type ball against the better competition and beating up on the rest is one way to get to the playoffs.

    See you at Rogers Centre.

  29. Who’s yearning for the good old days, before replay?

  30. E-Rex, Nick. Good points. Regarding the Yankees reference in my post, AA is well thought of in baseball, not that he’s taking over the Yankees anytime soon. It’s true that 130 million should make a team competitive, even in the ALE, so does Rogers turf AA and go for someone with a proven track record in building a winning team? Do they look for someone who can build a better development system for the team as well? If someone said to Rogers, look, I can get you, as did Houston, a guy from a winning organization, such as the Cardinals, and put him in place to build your system for sustainable, cost effective (if Rogers insist) competitiveness? Are the BJs there yet?

    • If they don’t compete this year, you can bet Rogers will be looking to make changes in the front office. Hopefully from another org and not promoting from within again. This team has the base to compete. Full rotation will be back next year and add in the youth to challenge for pitching. The base of the lineup could be back with Reyes, Lawrie, Bautista, EE, Lind, Navarro. If this year goes south, they can sell off several pieces and still have the ability to reload for next year.

  31. Replay isn’t optimal at the moment, what with the banter as the manager waits for the thumbs up….but fuck those arguments…and their respective couches.

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