Andrew McCutchen is pretty awesome, and so is Gerrit Cole, and you could do worse than liking the Pirates as your second team, but… let’s bury these fuckers in an early-May shallow grave somewhere off the I-70 way southeast of dahntahn.



sn1logosmallTV: Sportsnet One

Next game(s): Tomorrow, 7:05 PM ET, and Saturday, 1:35 PM ET, @ Pittsburgh

For those of you who’ll be out and about, be sure to follow all the action on your phone with theScore app.

And now, the lineups… 

Toronto Blue Jays

SS Jose Reyes (S)
LF Melky Cabrera (S)
RF Jose Bautista (R)
1B Edwin Encarnacion (R)
3B Juan Francisco (L)
2B Brett Lawrie (R)
CF Colby Rasmus (L)
C Josh Thole (L)
RHP Brandon Morrow (R)

Pittsburgh Pirates

RF Jose Tabata (R)
2B Neil Walker (S)
CF Andrew McCutchen (R)
3B Pedro Alvarez (L)
1B Gaby Sanchez (R)
LF Starling Marte (R)
C Tony Sanchez (R)
SS Jordy Mercer (R)
RHP Gerrit Cole (R)

Comments (628)

  1. We are totally not going to get playoffs this year, are we?

  2. Goddamned bullpen has blown, what? Five games in the last 10 days/2 weeks?
    Zaun is retarded. You shitcan Santos IMMEDIATELY. Useless bag of dogshit asshole fuck

  3. Shit-tastic MLB TV saved me the misery. Replayed the top of the 9th instead. Then closed out the game. Brilliant.

    Santos? Bleh.

  4. I mean.. people are going to lose their shit over this.. fair enough.. this has happened way too often. Santos as closer is finished. He has either list his ability or confidence. This team is bleeding wins from the bullpen. Have to fix it soon. Shitty loss after losing another series in KC.

  5. Ya, silence the idiots. Those in support of santos are the only ones that get. Guy is a piece of shit. Go ahead. Defend him.

  6. join me listeners for excuse talk when I will tell you that it’s not santos’ fault. they were all just bloop homers and 3 blown saves in 8 attempts is normal for small sample sizes, it will all even out after 100 attempts. It’s all just your perception that santos sucks, he’s real good. call lines are open.

  7. According to the Bucs’ post game guy, Santos had been nearly perfect before tonight.

    That’s news to DJF nation.

  8. J.A.

    You ain’t starting Monday.

    You are the closer now.

  9. The entertaining part will be in how the bearded hipster rationalizes


  10. Why is their closer the worst pitcher in the pen? I would have preferred Happ or Redmond in there.

    • B. J. Ryan was fucking fantastic in 2006. Unreal. One of the most dominant seasons of any reliever in the team’s history. One of the most dominant seasons of any reliever in the past 10 years.

      Even so, from July 16 to July 30, he blew three saves and gave up a walk-off homer. 7 IP, 9 H, 5 ER, 5 BB, 7 SO, 2 HR. Awful.

      Sergio Santos has blown three saves in the last two weeks after striking out 11 in his first 5.1 innings.

      Get a fucking grip.

  11. Stoeten – 

    look, i’m ticked about the loss – but is there any way to permanently bar the disgusting commenters from this site? saying baseball players are ‘pieces of shit’ or that they should ‘die’ is not an expression of exasperation, it’s an expression of hatred towards people they’ve never met. these commenters need to grow the fuck up, and do that growing up elsewhere.

    • And fucking piece of shit Santos needs to learn to pitch elsewhere. So…there’s that.

    • you are a piece of shit and must die. call lines are open.

    • What a pussy!

    • I’m with you on this.

    • Saying someone should die is way harsh, Tai – but if you can’t handle the big, bad s-word perhaps it is you that is in need of some growing up.

    • They should die. In fact, so should every baseball player. And human.

      If they didn’t, something would be very wrong.

    • @burning books
      You know what, you’re right. It’s okay to express frustration. I think that we can all relate to disappointment with the ending of the game.

      But how we choose to express that frustration is a reflection on your character, plus moulds the environment to which you are in.

      Let’s be a bit more civilized. Otherwise, we might as well go to the Toronto Sun comment threads.

    • I’m with burningbooks – the vitriol is a little hard to take sometimes.

  12. Oh dear.

  13. The scary thing is none of us are surprised. How bad is that? Now go into the locker room santos and look all the teammates in the eyes.

  14. AA, please trade Santos for a bag of peanuts.

  15. Hats off to anyone who has the stomach to keep watching this team.

  16. so now we have another useless reliever who we can’t send down, can’t release and can’t use in any leverage situation. rest of season looks promising. no lead is safe

  17. pirates had 0 HR in 96 ip???? and now get 2 hr in 1 inning??? that how much you suck santos.

  18. I’d rather have Rogers close until Janssen is back.

    I’m serious

  19. AA should have tried harder to trade Sergei “chunk of detritus” Santos last off season.

  20. Seriously though, I hope this puts paid to the notion of Santos ever closing a game again, ever.

  21. Looks like we found our volunteer for getting demoted when Jansen is back.

  22. Since we’re all in on 2014, it sure would be nice if we could get Stroman up to the bigs and move Mcgowan to the pen. The control is going to play up in short stints. Come on AA.

    • why would the control play up in short stints? velocity i could see. offspeed nastiness i could see. but why would someone with iffy control all of a sudden start picking corners in the pen?

  23. Holy shit everyone. Grow up. You sound like a bunch of whiny 15 year olds struggling to control your hormones.

    • Really, yeah this blows, I’m only in denial a little… But if you’re going to go away or not watch anymore or until they win a few, good. Be gone, and stay gone, you were never a fan in the first place and you probably shouldn’t be here. Honestly

      • Wrong. Been a fan since 1985. Thick and thin. I’m just tired of the WAY they are just (literally) throwing these games away. Need a fucking break from this team…they are fucking so maddening.

    • Ohmigod mom, you’re the worst person everrrrrrr! I can’t wait till I’m old enough to to live on my own.

  24. Did AA insult some old man and his goat last time he was in Greece?

  25. i just… i want to think the Jays are a decent team, and they may be, but their hopes of contention die a little more with every gut-wrenching, soul-crushing, mind-numbing would-be-win-turned-loss. and we just finished freaking April.

    they have struggled to get acceptable performances from all parts of the team collectively on a nightly basis, and a part of that is luck, but where that ends and the team’s lack of talent begins i can’t tell.

    when is it just baseball, and when do you accept that they just aren’t very good?

    these stretches make you long for the times when we had no expectations and could just watch individual performances minor league performances and dream on the future.

    • There is plenty of talent but for some reason the parts never work together. Good hitting, shit pitching. Good pitching, shit defense.

      Whether it’s some kind of epic bad luck with injuries or sequencing or just some intangible that they lack this team just can’t get it done.

      Anyway, just another frustrating Blue Jays season. Still early I suppose and things can change but man what a long climb they’ve got.

      Shades of the winter of 2008 when Rogers clamped down on payroll and a horrible 2009 followed.

      • yep that’s the biggest fear. Rogers sees shit returns on their investment in round 2 of contending window and cuts the payroll off at the ankles. if they have a poor year a rebuild is probably the right move, but that doesn’t mean is has to be Astros-style with a $40mill payroll. I’d like future incarnations of the front office to have to ability to make good baseball moves whenever they like, even if it means venturing into free agency.

        • I dont think it would be torn down to that extent if it even does get torn down but the result will be the same, we’ll just get another shit team for a few years followed by more years of corporate promises of spending when the time is right. #bluejays 2020

          • yep, more “win this year or your not getting any more money”

            sadly that’s the aspect of the organization that’s least likely to change. the next front office has to keep in mind the previous two regimes and stick to the slow rebuild plan, cause unfortunately you can’t go all in on a couple expensive moves and expect to be given more money should it blow up.

            it’s funny cause i write those sentences and feel like i’m the idiot – what else would i expect of a logical, fiscally responsible company? the Jays can absolutely still have success in the future, but the next front office must know the game before they start playing with Rogers money.

    • For me, it’s the fact that I wasn’t a fan in the glory years – just a kid in grade seven and eight, growing up in a non-sports household, so I never watched the Jays. It wasn’t until I got to university that baseball became my way of relaxing – watching Delgado, Halladay, etc. So I got to watch season after mediocre season, where we were told that if everything broke right, if everyone played to their abilities, the team should have it in them to contend.

      I watched through Roy’s broken leg, B.J.’s busted arm, Gibby’s fisticuffs. I watched the ship sink, watched a trade for some guy named Bautista, mourned the loss of Rolen (who the hell is Encarnacion, anyway?). I was sad when Vernon was traded, but understood the necessity. I died a little when Halladay was traded, but it was okay – Drabek and Gose were the future. Or they would be if they played to their abilities, and everything broke right.

      Things didn’t break right. They never do. Things aren’t as outright bad as when we were trotting out guys like Scott Service, Victor Zambrano, or Jojo Reyes; but it’s close, and it’s worse, because parts of this team are so undeniably good. Melky is having a career season; Bautista is having an MVP-calibre season. Lawrie’s starting to heat up. There’s a sense that if the starting pitching and the bullpen were just major-league average, things would be okay. But we’re not, because they’re not. And so in this dog-fight of divisional mediocrity, we’re still barely out of it, and that hurts, because if this team was just a little bit better, we could maybe finally find ourselves a playoff spot.

      That’s what really hurts. Twenty one years, and counting.

  26. Query….
    What would Moises Sierra’s slash line be if he had 600 AB against Santos?

  27. Jays suck. Fuck this team. The jig is up and we are what we thought we were; the fifth-best team in our five team division. Ownership isn’t committed enough, Gibbons (great guy, good manager in some ways) flaws are exacerbated with our roster, and our pitching JUST ISN’T GOOD ENOUGH.
    I’ll pay attention again when and if we put out a respectable team.
    Call me a fair-weather fan if you want, fine. I just think it’s more ridiculous that so many of us put in the effort when the team itself doesn’t (ownership, front office, management, players, everyone).
    (BTW, no one should die.)

  28. So i think it’s time they took Santos out of high leverage games for a bit, the stuff seems great some nights but he’s really not performing well so far.

    • I’ve calmed down and now feel a bit bad for guy. He just looked soooooo dejected after giving up that first home run.

      • His Mojo is gone, ripped out, shit and pissed on.

        He can’t stay on the roster.

      • Yeah I’m not going to say he can never be useful but with the way he’s performed they can’t keep running him out with the game on the line right now. I don’t know what it is with him because some nights he’s just lights out. I’m fine with letting him work out the kinks in low leverage situations but not in important spots, he’s just had so many games where he’s been horrendous. I didn’t think the Jansen injury was a big deal in spring training but I can’t wait for him to be back.

  29. I know Santos is out of options, but theoretically could a player be optioned to Double A, if the city where the Triple A team is located didn’t want anymore arsonists?

  30. Quote from Gibbons

    “We are going to rearrange some things down there”

    Ya think?

  31. He’s sort of a cheaper version of BJ Ryan’s last year.

  32. Fuck that was fucking awful. Shouldn’t care this much this early but holy fuck.

    • Just one game, but this one really stings. They’d played a great game up to that point, and the Pirates haven’t been able to buy a win recently.

      • It’s not one game.

        The bullpen has imploded a bunch of times with Santos the worst offender. They should be right there with the Yankees right now. Not just blown leads but blown comfortable leads.

        • I get that, but this is especially bad since the Pirates have been terrible this season. Gotta win these games.

    • I can’t decide if I’m more pissed about that loss of the fact that it’s fucking snowing.

    • It may be early but losing games like this does matter, win’s won’t be easy to come by against the AL East teams and if they lose games like this now it means they have to win more games against better teams.

  33. I bet Santos to DL and another AAA guy back up.

  34. My guess is McGowan goes back to the pen and will be put in a high leverage short role.

    Happ and maybe Stroman to the rotation.

    This bullpen is killing this team.

  35. I’ve never understood the “Save” stat. Everyone should get an H for a hold. That should be the only relief stat.

  36. will you finally admit santos is a failed shortstop rather than a mustacheless “we are the north” second coming of dennis eckersley? 4 blown saves in a month? the guy is a joke.. and no its not about this years sample size.. the sample size of his success is much smaller than failure…grooving fastballs all year and shaking off signs from catchers endlessly..lights out slider.. great.. but i don’t understand the entitlement based on one year with the chi sox when no one knew shit about him. sit on the fastball or take the slider in the dirt.. tough…

    • You actually nailed it. Teams have figured out that the slider is rarely a strike so they all sit fastball. He has no third pitch so when he is not hitting his spots with the heater, well, you get tonight’s outcome.

      • ugh exactly.. casey can just stick the fastball anywhere and thats why he’s successful.. all over the plate for strikes..

        • Hitters will figure out what you’ve got even if it’s good. They can’t hit it if they don’t know when and where it’s going and you can put it there.

  37. Santos is a good pitcher, has awesome stuff, but it isn’t working right now and he shouldn’t be closing.

    Janssen ought to be closing, but he’s injured, unfortunately.

    • agreed.. incredible stuff.. no argument here.. but if you have the balls of richard simmons under pressure who gives a fuck…being a closer is about having some getting it done.

  38. Worst thing about this team and what makes them so insufferable is they ARE good enough to win. They are more than talented enough to be a contender. But bad roster construction + injuries + letting the same players fail in the same way almost every night = a quickly evaporating season. Bad teams that everyone knows will suck but play hard anyway are fun to watch. This team is fucking nauseating.

  39. Can we call the Santos-Molina trade a draw?

  40. And yet, thru all of this bullpen BS,sits Wagner in Buffalo who has 97MPH gas, and pretty good fucking CONTROL! He doesn’t walk many guys AA or fall behind too many batters. He’ll get lit up here and there due to his straight fastball, he’s CHEAP, and can pitch two innings easily. And, they cannot bring him back til next tuesday unless there is an injury, like perhaps Santos with right arm shittiness or something. Fukin Gibbons,,man, mangaging for the allmight save and all we got was another fuckin loss. Can’t even drink properly with this anymore FFS.
    Spent most of the night seeing the Raptors stink it up and now this
    Forward Soviet!
    They continue to lose ugly. Won’t take too much more of this horsehit, I don’t think , and someone(s) will be moved out. I really fear some trades I think they may get forced into becaue I don’t wnat to go down that road and some of their stars don’t either. Te only solution us to win a few fuin games FFs

    • No, we can’t have a good reliver up here closing games, because we might lose a bad reliver to waivers

      • Exactly. The stupidity of keeping some of the sad sacks ( Jeffress was a good example) meant they never did bring the best 25 guys north. But nonethelss, farming out Wagner to keep the likes of Jeffress, Jenkins et al has cost them games and not improved the asset worth of the dreck one bit.Maybe we’ll call up Dreck Mcguire next, so AA can get some publicityout of a former no 1 choice. Yokes

  41. Why can’t Cecil be the closer? Would it be too radical to have a lefty closer?

    He’s too good an overall pitcher to be a loogy, it’s wasted. Let Loup be the loogy.

    • Can’t even come up with an argument against that. Loup and Cecil are our best pitchers in the pen.

    • +1

    • More I think about it? The more I wanna see it. Cant be any more than watching this dogshit.

    • Because John Gibbons is a dinosaur.

      • Seriously though. Fuck it. Why not? I mean for fuck sake, try something vs following motherfucking right handed tradition.

    • it’s not that lefties can’t close, it’s just that Cecil has a career .363 wOBA against righties, which make up roughly 2/3 of the league and probably more than that in a late inning situation where a manager will pinch hit.

      and he doesn’t exactly have dynamite command either. filthy movement sure, but he leaves a lot of pitches up.

      sounds like a lefty Santos with added platoon issues huh?

    • The 9th was a low leverage situation. Cecil pitched in just about the highest leverage spot which is exactly what you want.

  42. I always wondered why the sox gave up on santos so easily. now you see why. they sold waaaaaay high on him although they got nothing in return. teams are schooling lil alex getting him to take on all their bad contracts.

    • How you write off an elite arm after a month is so over the top boneheaded that I’m genuinely confused as to how you enjoy watching a game that’s played without a time clock over the course of a six month season. The guy’s been shitting the bed lately, granted, and it needs to be addressed, but Sergio Sanos career is far from over after only a few blown saves. You reactionaries of the fan base obviously need the blow ups to justify your lunacy. Just stop it.

  43. starting to see the reason why santos and morrow suck so much. their fastballs are flat and they only have 2 pitches so if they don’t have pinpoint control they get bombed.

    • bang on… and they are both always injured.. coincidence? i know injuries happen, i get it.. but growing up playing sports it was the same cats on my teams getting hurt all the time, every year.. whatever it is.. it is an attribute.. i know stoeten goes on about fuck intangibles and loves numbers numbers numbers with fairservice and guys who have never played, but i have mates i go to bars with, way uglier than me who are pulling birds cause they have the balls to go talk to them and i’d rather lean on the bar like an asshole.. intangibles exist.

  44. We still got the Raptors right?

  45. maybe the total confidence in the current bullpen was misplaced.

    when you look at it, with no Janssen, this pen was down to 3 “reliable” late inning arms. the problem is relievers, even good ones, are known to be volatile year-to-year, and this was hardly the most consistent cast of characters in that regard.

    Santos – major injury risk, relatively short track record of success. his dominant performances the last couple seasons have been in microsamples, so more than likely he’s the same guy who pitched for the White Sox years ago – filthy, but inconsistent.
    Delabar – bionic pitcher, short track record, faded down the stretch last year

    and Janssen, particularly if he comes back chucking it 86mph, may not be a saviour.

    Wagner and McGowan are missed in this bullpen. they don’t prevent tonight’s fiasco, but they give Gibby more options early in the game and could help take in the innings load off of Delabar and Cecil.

    • I still think the rest of the pen will be fine over the long run, but Santos looks broken. Teams have clearly figured out how to hit him. He should be put in some low-leverage situations, see if he can put together a string of shutout innings before they even consider using him as a closer again.

  46. let’s also not forget morrow was way way shittier tonight than the numbers show.. fuck the loss.. the fact a guy we have all hoped would be an ace by now is seemingly getting worse.
    that can shape a franchise. nevermind he’s not our ace.. he’s been the worst on the staff

    • I got shit on by some for saying they should explore trading him over the winter. Just so tired about hearing about his “electric arm” when he can’t even lite up the oppostions pitcher in the batters box. Like I said he is they type that has one great game out of 5 but mostly meh otherwise. There is still time as others may be fooled by his arm.
      If they don’t get him going or send him going,take your pick. they have to decide on a 10m option this offseason. At themoment, I think they would still exercise it, but if he finishes the year with a declining IP ratio, low K/BB%, and an ERA of 5+ I think they walk away from him

      • Zero chance they pick up the option. Why pay Morrow $10 mil to do what Jenkins or McGuire could do for free? The only thing Morrow can do better than those guys is get injured.

        The problem with trading him last winter was that he was coming off an injury that has been pretty much career-ending for other pitchers, and even before he got hurt he was inconsistent and mostly garbage (in 2013). They would have been lucky to get even salary relief. Unfortunately that’s still the case.

        Right now the Jays have to go into asset maximization mode — ownership and the FO clearly don’t see them as a contender — so the best thing to do is keep running him out there, hope he catches lightning in a bottle, and maybe get something for him at the deadline if he does. Otherwise, you cut him loose at the end of the year.

      • you are right and its about having some fucking pride in your work.. again not claiming i have any idea of the inner workings of the clubhouse, but fuck it seems like some guys are just happy to pick up the cheque.. smoke = fire and last year “certain people” in the rotation were getting called out for not battling through injuries when they could have. dont get me wrong.. i think robert allen is no where near a number 1 starter on a world series team, but fuck you can tell he gives a shit. brandon morrow has the personality of the joint i just furiously smoked sitting in my ash tray

    • two ways to look at it. either he didn’t have his best stuff and gutted out 5 innings, similar to what Cole did, or he stunk and got lucky. at this point 5 innings of 3 run ball ain’t bad. certainly in the “gave his team a chance” category.

      • Been his M.O. all season that he can’t seem to finish guys off. Throwing 100ish pitches in 5 innings is too many. How many guys did he get to 2 strikes and gave up hits or start out 0-2 and end up full count?

  47. This mason jar of scotch is tasty.

    All is well.

  48. Agree w/Cunty – Another gutless performance from a guy counted on to do far more than eat 4 to 5 innings per start. I guess we should all know better at this point. As far as Santos goes — he’s probably just injured again. We got maybe 3 good appearances out of him before he went to shit this time?!? Would not be blaming Gibbons though — not his fault the org has shown zero commitment to excellence – he is just working with what he was given. Let’s see what kind of return they get from their impending fire sale and whether they bother to sign both their 1st rounders this summer.

  49. Just don’t overreact and bring up Stroman. Contending this year is absolutely out of the question and come July, it’s time to start the rebuild. The last thing they need to do is to start burning options and risking a Super Two situation. Stroman shouldn’t be seen in a Jays uniform in 2014, and preferably not in 2015 — though they may not have much of a choice if Dickey, Buehrle, Happ and Morrow are all gone after the year. Still, they’d be better just picking up some cannon fodder off the waiver wire if they need people to eat innings. Leave the prospects you have now down as long as you can, get some additional prospects for your current core, and bring them all up together in 2-3 years when they’re ready.

    • 2015? you are a complete idiot.

      • I love this trolls logic. Save Stroman for when the team sucks next year.

        • I guess you’re not too good at reading, huh?

          To be accurate, I said “preferably not in 2015.” Unfortunately, that kind of glosses over the problem that Rogers is going to have in terms of trying to sell tickets as the team goes through a rebuild.

          While I think most of the more knowledgeable fans understand that a full-on Astros-style teardown is necessary, and would welcome it over the perpetual mediocrity we’ve seen throughout the past decade, the casuals may not quite get it. As in the past, some degree of prospect porn will need to be trotted out to appease the masses, and that will likely lead to Stroman and Sanchez coming up before they’re ready, or more accurately before the team is ready to make use of their talent.

          I just don’t want to see them waste a year of Stroman’s valuable pre-arb service time, and possibly end up with him being a Super Two, for the near-negligible marginal value improvement of having him start a few games instead of Happ or McGowan. On Jays Talk tonight Wilner suggested that the original plan, had McGowan sucked as expected a few days ago, would be to bring Stroman up for one start and then send him back down regardless of how well he did. That’s absolutely insane when there are a dozen other guys who could be a warm body.

          Bottom line — prospects should stay in the minors until the team is ready to make use of them AND they’re dominating to such a degree that they effectively force the team’s hand. If we’re going to play the asset management game — and as long as the team is owned by Rogers, we’re going to have to — then effectively managing service time for your best prospects is FAR more important than the kind of roster gyrations we’ve been going through to try to hang on to shitbags like Jeffress and Sierra.

    • I don’t think contending is out of the question this year. Way too early to say that. If the bullpen was anywhere near performing where they were expected to, I would say that they would be on top of the division right now. They’re playing some pretty good ball.

      Too early to start talking about a fire sale or writing off the season.

  50. This is flukey shit.

    Santos had a 0.58 WHIP last year and 1.11 the last year he wasn’t injured. I wouldn’t exactly fucking release him yet.

  51. missed the game BUT I went 3-3 (2B, Singlex2, 1 SB)

    I had a passed ball as catcher and ump blew a play at home but dont worry we still lost.

  52. Similar to last year, a two game winning streak is cause for celebration. So far we have had 2 of them I believe. Is it possible for this team to go once thru the rotation and win (5)?
    Lord knows we have some tremendous talent, some ASs even, but aslo some unbelievable dreck which acts as a headwind to keep the club down to the point where getting to .500 always seems to be the objective. WOOHOO, can we reach the mediocrity level??
    Regreattably, I have a hard time convincing myself that this team can win much more than 2 in a row. I keep hoping they can contain the errors, the stupid plays, the lack of efficient execution by a multitude of players, and overcome an up til recently a 7-9 portion of a batting order that effectively had 3 “pitchers” batting and posing as MLB hitters.
    They llok like they are dejected and seeing another year start to slip away. Don’t know what it might be but this team needs something to jumpstart them and get them going, because again, like last year, they continue to lose to teams they should beat in a soft spot in the scgedule and then whine later about a ton of games against the Al east

    • Main problem has been the bullpen giving away games. Otherwise they would be in pretty decent shape right now. The team does not at all resemble last year’s team that played some pretty sloppy baseball.

      This is not the same as last year’s team.

      • You could argue that the pen has been so shit of late is because that it’s been overworked to start the season just as it was all of last season.

        Amazing what a shitty rotation and little depth does to an overworked pen eh Rogers? Cheap ownership = Shitty starts = overworked pen = blown leads = losses that should have been wins = fans wanting to hurt themselves in the early hours of the morning.

    • The Jays have had four two-game winning streaks this season.

  53. As of today Batista is walking almost 25% more often then Joey Votto.

    Dayum son, who knows of his walk rate is sustainable. I’ll take it

    • That’s the galling thing.

      The offense is borderline elite at the moment, scary lineup.

      Then the gas cans come in…

  54. i chirp zaun cherry as much as the next guy but him saying gose should only be allowed to bunt in the cage and be the best bunter in the league kind of makes sense.. fuck he is fast…just sit him on the bench as pinch runner/fielding sub guy.. the fact he cant hit for shit doesn’t meant he is disposable.. like a higher ceiling rajai

    • No, Zaun is talking out of his whore fucking ass here. Worst ex athlete in TO since Tie Domi, BTW.

      Gose needs to use the threat of the bunt to mess with the infield D. They will come in just like they did for guys like Lofton and Otis Nixon. Then he will get hits past them.

      Aside from that, I think Gose needs to be here. Third season in AAA is not helping his confidence any. A taste of the show will do him a world of good, remind him why he’s been riding those buses to Scranton.

      • I agree but essentially your opinion was verbatim zaun’s…confusing

        • No, Zaun said he could hit 300 by bunting.

          It isn’t that. It’s the threat of the bunt that will give Gose hits through a drawn in field.

  55. the jays need to move mcgowan back to the bullpen, make him the closer and happ the starter. then you know you have a guy who WILL get guys out, not hope. I’d rather lose 80% of happs starts knowing that I’ll win 90% of the games I have the lead rather than the shit show that’s going on now.

    • How do you “know” McGowan will get guys out as a closer?

      • Personally I would be all for Stroman as the closer or 8th inning guy. He’s got 4 pitches like Janssen and a wipeout slider as an out pitch when he really needs it.

        It’s obvious Delabar, like Santos isn’t the same guy as last year either.

        Leave Cecil and Loup as your lefties.

        Nothing wrong with starting guys like Stroman or Sanchez as relievers. Teams, good teams, used to do it all the time. All this shit about learning in the minors and playing everyday might be fine for position players but I see nothing wrong in young arms working from the pen. Besides if the the shit train that is the 2014 blue jays continues to roll into the abyss then you can move him into rotation as a starter when the breakup happens.

  56. I no longer have an opinion due to the fact every opinion above mine is more fucking tragic!

  57. Tom W’s Wife: You seem bitchy is it the Jays again?

    Tom W: No! I’m just happy to see you.


  58. By not getting the two starters everyone knew we needed, the bullpen is overworked, and gives up leads the few times the starters actually do their jobs.

    This team is done, not just for this year, but for the future, unless and until Rogers decides to spend the necessary money to win in this division. That means signing every first round draft pick, and not passing around the hat asking players for cash when free agents are needed.

  59. Two things:

    1) The bullpen has been costing this team games. Bullpen stats are prone to SSS and is also one of the easiest parts of a club to fix. Offense has been elite and starting pitching has felt like it’s turned a bit of a corner lately. While you can’t ignore wins and losses, these are positive signs.

    2) You can’t ignore wins and losses. And watching this bullpen implode what feels like every third game is hastening my death. I don’t understand why Neil Wagner isn’t on this team. We’re hanging on to pitchers that might have value in the future but are costing the teams wins now in a year where the AL East has been wide open so far. With average starting pitching and an average bullpen we’d have a shot at this thing…

  60. Remember when Jose had that 1+ WPA game where he basically won the game by himself? Well, Santos did the opposite last night:

  61. You know what, you’re right. It’s okay to express frustration. I think that we can all relate to disappointment with the ending of the game.

    But how we choose to express that frustration is a reflection on your character, plus moulds the environment to which you are in.

    Let’s be a bit more civilized. Otherwise, we might as well go to the Toronto Sun comment threads.

    • Bullshit.
      How you express disappointment is a reflection of character and moulds the environment?
      It’s sports and we’re fans.
      It maybe DJFLite but it ain’t BBB either.
      I could debate this for days, in a civilized way, but I have a feeling it would be a wasted exercise.

      • Okay,i just debated this with someone else and they convinced me that you have a point.
        I still fundamentally disagree with the statement but there is an element of truth in what you say.

  62. The Jays had an amazing start to the season. They were hovering just above .500, even with alternating good and bad starts from the rotation and with Encarnacion, Rasmus, Lawrie, and fill in name of 2nd baseman/short stop Du Jours here, barely hitting. At that point they seemed like winners, and now they seem like losers. This team has, for the last number of years (2010 the first year without Halladay excluded) seemed like losers. By “losers” I don’t mean that they necessarily lost a lot of games, but that the won-lost record seemed to be much lower than the sum of all the valuable team parts would predict.

    What was the difference? I’m wondering if it was the infield defence. After each game that the Jays won, it seemed like hard hit ball after hard hit ball by a Jays opponent landed in the glove of a Jays infielder. Bloopers never fell to the grass, and double plays were turned with great efficiency. The outfield defence actually seemed a bit weak at times with a revolving door of AL hitters powdering the ball over Rasmus’ head for critical doubles. But the team kept winning.

    Obviously during this early stretch the bullpen was much better, and yes the defence couldn’t really come into play during the Minnesota walk-fest, and some of the others that followed, but in the KC series I was noticing a different kind of bullpen implosion. This had more to do with near misses. Defensive plays that weren’t made, rather than just good old walks.

    I get the commentary of how baseball is a game of individuals, and the team with the best individuals will have the chance to win the most games. I can see how that would make sense if you just look at it from an offensive perspective, but I don’t believe it when you take defense into account. Defensive play helps save hits, runs, pitches and pitcher morale. Obviously, based on the acronym, FIP, doesn’t look at a pitchers’ actual results, as much as it considers the quality with which the pitcher threw the ball, but fielding obviously matters. I don’t want to know that my team’s pitchers have a really low FIP relative to their ERA, I want to know that my team won the game. Right now my team keeps losing the game and it needs to change.

    I propose we trade Jose Reyes. There’s rarely a game played where I don’t see a play involving Reyes giving up on a ball, showing poor range, seeming poorly positioned or slowly transferring the ball from glove to hand on failed double play attempts. I get that he’s fast, I get that he’s got a rocket arm, but most of all, I get that he can’t play shortstop very well. I think Brett Lawrie knows that, so he cheats a bit to his left…suddenly we’re seeing balls scorched down the line get past him instead of seeing him stab the ball and start unthinkable double plays. Trading Reyes will do the following:
    1.) Useful players come back in return (preferably some major league utility i.e. Lind platoon partner 4th outfield, and some prospects) for his elite bat and great reputation
    2.) Some degree of salary relief depending on the sucker who takes him (Tigers I’m looking in your direction)
    3.) Significantly improve the infield D.

    The perception would be that this is the start of the firesale. Well, so was the Rudy Gay trade that propelled the Raptors to their best season of all time.

    Let’s see how the Jays do without Reyes. If they start to compete again, then we sign Drew after the draft, with the money saved on moving Reyes out. If not, we can begin the firesale with top drawer prospects coming for Bautista, Encarnacion, Beuhrle(with inflation his salary’s not so bad), Cabrera, Rasmus, Dickey (if anyone gives up something valuable) and Janssen. We then build a team that works well together, with Hutchison, Stroman, Sanchez, Nolin, Osuna among others all set to come of age within the next couple of years. This could be quite a quick rebuild.

    I’m comfortable with that. I’m not comfortable with how few wins the team has when Reyes plays shortstop for them.

    • Most people here will condemn you for such a heretic thought. While I enjoy Reyes, I agree that if the team continues to struggle, they will have to shop him, I agree his defense is below average despite his other attributes, Escobar at 5m/year doesn’t seem so bad now, considering the Rogers financial lockdown now does it?.
      Anyway , I’m not sure if they would get a whole lot for him , given he has a 22m contract in 2016! However, I think it w/b prudent , if we continue with poor play, to not let this turn into a VW situation where we have an ungodly contract that can’t be moved. Reyes is nowhere near wort the money unless he hits .300+
      If the finacial horseshit at cheapo Rogers persists, I can see them unloading both Buerhle and Reyes before the end of the year freeing up an anuualized amount of 40m!
      Of course,rather than reinvesting in the team, hey will likely buy tresury bills at .5%.
      Under no ciccumstance should Bautista be moved as he is still allworld.but I think the rumours of that will increase as well if the shit cntinues. Man, they got some seriously tuff decisions to make in July if we don’t contend

    • Yeah, with Reyes… the point where his less-than-elite offense is no longer enough to mitigate his pylon-like range at short might be closer than people think.

      If a good trade possibility comes up I hope they listen closely.

  63. This overworked bullpen theory is bullshit. Last year the bullpen worked just as many innings in April, 47, as they did this year. Individually Loup and Delabar have thrown fewer innings this year as opposed to last year. Cecil’s thrown more, but he’s also rocking a 2.26 FIP
    The bullpen has just been shitty. It sucks, but it happens. It’s too bad they all seem to be struggling at the same time, but hopefully they can figure it out or the team can bring someone in to stabilize the pen. Janssen returning and being strong would sure help.

  64. It is so frustrating when the AL East is so up for grabs this year.

    How many wins to take the division this year? 90?

    It is still not out of the question for the Jays to hit that number, if they have a bullpen that is at least average that is.

  65. John Lott article says Gibbons is considering moving McGowan back to the bullpen.

  66. Call me a pessimist or dumb or whatever, but I’m now starting to think this bullpen implosion shit is now actually a thing and not just a blip.

    Yes they’ve been overworked over the season as a whole, but they had a day off before KC, and the rotation was pretty solid in that series. The bullpen should be more or less rested right now.

    The only game the team deserved to lose was Wednesday where the offense couldn’t get anything going against a very tough pitcher – not a knock against Hutch or the bullpen in any way that game.

    The team really could benefit from Janssen returning.

  67. Well, the Jays are 3 games out of first place with 5 months of baseball left. Two ways to look at it:

    Glass half-empty: They’ve missed out on a great opportunity to establish an early lead in the division.
    Glass half-full: They’re lucky that everyone else in the division has struggled at the same time they have.

    In the immortal words of Billy Beane (paraphrased): you’ve got two months to see what you’ve got, two months to fix it, and two months to win.

    We’ve seen that the offense is borderline elite even with Reyes, Lawrie and Rasmus still finding form. The starting pitching is, probably, at worst serviceable and at best quite good — Buehrle and Hutch have been among the most valuable pitchers in the league and Dickey looks to be turning the corner. They can fix a big problem with the pen right now by moving McGowan back in there. The defense which was so good early on has been a bit questionable recently — whether Reyes’ presence has anything to do with it, I don’t know, but it’s something I hope they’re thinking about.

    This season is very much up for grabs as long as they don’t keep repeating the same mistakes. All the pieces are there.

  68. I don’t think enough people are paying attention to just how shitty the division has been this year.

    The apocalypse that is currently underway, if you listen to the voices, still has them sitting just three games out of the division lead.

    I’ve said this plenty of times, but baseball is weird, so who the fuck knows?

  69. I think there’s a difference between having a really good arm and having really good stuff. Santos has a really good arm but where are the high caliber pitches that go with that good arm? I don’t like him learning how to be a closer on the biggest stage of professional baseball. It’s not positive because it leaves a ton of room for mistakes that contribute to losses. I’m not seeing the wipe-out from him either. Fastball command is one thing but where is the slider?

    It’s debilitating to a team from both sides of the equation when you lose series because of the closer. #1 The Birds get down four of five runs after a few innings because the starter has a rough night. The bats pick up the starter, get back the lead, set up the 9th perfectly only for the closer only to blow it. #2 The Birds lead early in the game, carry it through the middle innings and sometimes have a 4 or 5 run sizeable cushion going into the 7th or 8th. Middle relievers give up a run or two but still leave enough room for the closer, who blows the inning and loses the game.

    • Hitters have figured him out. How often have we seen anyone offer at his slider lately? Then he grooves a fastball to get back in the count, and game over. We already saw this play out in one of his “successful” saves against Cleveland but EE saved him with a great play at first.

      He needs to make some adjustments. Throw more sliders for strikes maybe, dunno.

      • I’m trying to figure out when they’ve had the chance to see him. He’s pitched all of like 30 innings in the last two years.

        The book can’t be a very difficult one to read if they have really “figured him out”.

        • It’s just harder for me to envision him being so consistently bad (12 hits, 3 HR and 9 walks in 9.1 IP), after being so consistently good in 2013, than hitters really having a plan against him.

          I think I read that the Pirates hadn’t hit a homer in like 10 games or something. Then they suddenly get two in one inning. This seems more serious than Santos simply going through a rough patch.

          • There really hasn’t been enough time in either season to use the word “consistently”.

            Bullpen pitchers have small samples on entire seasons. Santos hasn’t even had half a season of work in any season wearing a Jays hat.

            The truth is that there probably isn’t as much to take from his outings as people are making it. There also wasn’t enough to get excited about in previous seasons.

            In all likelyhood with his entire body of work (Sox included) he’s probably an extremely average bullpen arm. That is a guy with a low 3 ERA and a FIPP to match. They are a dime a dozen, just look up relief pitchers and take your pick.

      • last night was two hitters pounding mistake fastballs. that’s not figuring him out.

        and yes, plenty of hitters offer at his slider. former MVP Andrew McCutchen whiffed on two such examples last night alone.

        his command has been shit so far this year, and it’s not a strength of his to begin with, but he will be fine long term.

        • You’re probably right. Shit, this one just really annoyed me with how the team ground it out in the 8 prior innings only to have everything to evaporate so quickly. Oh well.

  70. I wonder if Santos gets another chance if a save opportunity presents itself? How many more series does Gibbons keep him as the closing pitcher? Pete Walker can’t teach experience. You can’t buy time in the major leagues without making the pitches. Santos had a couple of bright spots but nothing consistent.

    Somebody tell me what fastball he throws please besides the slider he’s trying to establish. 2-seam? 4-seam? Cutter? Sinker? Splitter?

    If Santos has got such a power arm with all this closing potential, why not get him throwing the forkball or another type of breaking pitch?

    • 4 seam fastball in the mid-90′s to go with one of the best sliders in the business (see the strikeout of McCutchen) and he has added a changeup recently that also looks like a plus pitch.

      the issue is not the quality or the depth of his repertoire, just his command of it.

  71. Isn’t this year three of “We’ll make the playoffs three of the next five years”?

  72. Bye bye Sierra… Chisox claimed him off of waivers.

  73. Why is the game at 7pm?

    • They had to push the game back or half of the commentators on this forum would have died from alcohol poisoning from drinking so soon after last night’s debacle. The extra six hours is what’s needed to burn off the leftover alcohol.

  74. Speaking of Snider… I can’t believe they didn’t have him in the starting lineup for yesterday’s game with a righty on the mound and his old team in town.

    You left me in Toronto, Snider… your old lunchbox!

  75. When Lind and Jannsen come back, I don’t know why it can’t be:

    vs RHP
    Reyes, Melky, Bautista, EE, Lind, Rasmus, Lawrie, Navarro, Getz

    vs LHP
    Reyes, Melky, Bautista, EE, Lawrie, Rasmus, Navarro, Lind, Getz

    Bench: Francisco, Kawasaki, Gose, Thole

    Buehrle, Hutch, Dickey, Morrow, Stroman

    McGowan, Janssen, Santos, Cecil, Wagner, Loup, Delabar

    Everyone has a role, everyone can contribute, everyone in the bullpen is trustworthy, it’s the best team possible.

  76. Morrow to the DL

    • Jenkins up. So it’s now Dickey, Buehrle, Hutch, McG, and Happ.


    • Well fuckity fuck fuck. so it begins.

      strikes me as being a nagging type injury, which may explain why he hasn’t come out with his good stuff in a couple weeks.

      i guess he wasn’t pitching well anyways (averaging less than 5 innings per start, >5 BB/9), so they probably won’t miss him too much in the short term.

      so does Happ now get a regular turn, or does Stroman get the call?

  77. The Jays official website is claiming the whole Lawrie to 2B thing is about “optimizing the lineup for NL parks.” So perhaps this is only temporary. Might also mean Goins’ demotion is only temporary.

  78. Soooo…where are all the clowns that were calling people fools for calling Morrow injury riddled? Did we not know he couldn’t make it until June without a DL stint? Lol! AA has made a real fucking mess of this rotation. I’m usually not about calling for heads, but nothing this guy has done has made any sense in a long time.

  79. Seriously, I’m beginning to wonder if this club has any FUKIN clue what they are doing at all. Ifthis optimizing the team for NL parks, wouldn’t logic suggest it must also be the optimum for AL parks? When we play in the AL we would simply add a dh
    We already know that Lawrie does not like nor is he that good at 2B so how is this optimal anything?
    Last year we put EE at 3b ( so why not now?) and he made some o/s defensive plays including 3 or 4 in Texas during the 11 game streak. Franscisco is a pylon and should be nowher near 3B and has arguably already cost us a game there.
    Finally, why is fukin Morrow off now? I suggest we trade the cunt-had it with him, his electric arm, and his tepid performances but likely his trade value is diminishing rapidly..
    I dunno, the management team , which seems good on the surface, keeps leading me to believe they have trouble evalauting the talent to keep and which to carve off and THAT is a big difference between our team and others like Tampa, I think.
    I keep hoping we can overcome all this but christ now we get a regular dose of Happ too? Surrealistic Pillow! ( Potatoes-Jefferson Airplane said it all here)

    • They have no idea what theyre doing as the same issues plague this team every year (except bullpen). Injuries, obp, starter innings are constant themes. But you cant lay all the blame with management when you have a horrible owner like rogers that is unwilling to build a winner and is only concerned about profits and shareholders.

    • They are making millions off of the team. They know what they’re doing.

    • We live but once
      But good things can be found around
      In spite of all the sorrow

      If you see black
      You can’t look back
      You can’t look front
      You cannot face tomorrow

      • Yep- “funny cars” says it all. I am definitely having trouble looking for tomorrow in the Jays case. They have to get going today

  80. Wait, so now loup is the closer?? You have a fucking loogy as your closer. This team just gets more and more incompetent.

    • Loup has never been used strictly as a LOOGY, where do you get off thinking like that? He’ll throw strikes, which is what we need right now in the closer role.

    • Do you have to complain about everything? Do you even know what LOOGY means? He just pitched 3 straight innings two games ago!

      He’s probably the best choice after Cecil.

      • Thats my point. Cecil is clearly a better option

        • Pretty sure your point was that Loup is a LOOGY, which is pretty much false. Loup’s definitely been better against righties this year than Cecil has.

          So is your point that the jays shouldn’t use Loup as closer or is it that they shouldn’t have a lefty as closer? Or as Bob suggests, are you just complaining for the sake of it?

  81. Jays should consider putting Happ in the rotation, calling up Stroman for the bullpen to ease him in the MLB and limit his innings, and when Morrow comes back you DFA Rogers. Or something along these lines.

  82. Shi Davidi:
    Morrow felt his index finger pop at the base of his right hand. Happ starts Monday, everyone else follows suit.

    He’s out with finger pop? That happens? I can’t imagine he’d be out for long, but then again I have no idea what a popped finger does to a person.

  83. I’d ask why they didn’t go to closer-by-committee weeks ago, but whatever. Better late than never.

  84. if we have to go with one closer, it’s gotta be Delabar. has tools to neutralize both right and left handed bats (slider and split).

  85. If it wasn’t for shitty luck the Jays would have no luck at all.

  86. I don’t hear too many admiring comments about our soon-to-be-not-a-ninja GM and his boss. Carrying two injure-prone starters with great stuff but little staying-power is not a bright move in my opinion. But, hey. The team starts to win, we will all be thrilled. They carry on like this, and we may well be rid of a front office that I’m beginning to believe is as second-rate as they come. So it’s all good. The Jays’ woes aren’t necessarily down to miserly owners. Other teams have done a lot more with a lot less. I think this particular clusterfuck is created by bad decisions made over a long period of time.

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