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The window of time left in the season to make up for mounting losses is closing quickly for the Jays.

I’ll talk about what was said to Arash Madani in a separate post, and so, other than that first sentence, what more is there even to say?

Woof.

Comments (225)

  1. If anyone said that they are a bunch of whiners and need to run out of town asap. Whiners are losers.

    • I highly doubt they “gave up”.

      More likely, they just aren’t that good, and the guys on the team (the ones who would know) realized this. It’s called being realistic.

      I guess that makes this anonymous player a garbage clown. Bautista and Casey are also both garbage clowns

      • Wouldn’t shock me if that unnamed player was Colby

      • They def didn’t give up. That’s ridiculous. They just aren’t very good. Ignoring their outlier May, they are 43-52. They are a mediocre team that got hot for a 3-4 week stretch. That stretch is long gone.

        Whomever said that to Arash is just looking for excuses.

    • Because I’m certain if you boss promised you a huge raise, and then backed out when you really needed it, your work wouldn’t suffer in the slightest, right?

  2. Obviously, the Jays haven’t actually quit and are still trying their best to win these games. What this player meant was that this team clearly needed reinforcements at the deadline and the clubhouse was very let down to see nothing done. There’s a vast difference between “not believing in your teammates” and “recognizing some big holes on the roster that weren’t addressed.” It gets even worse if the story about Rogers management promising the Jays during the preseason meetings that money would be available for in-season improvements is true — some players may feel that Rogers lied to their faces.

    As frustrating as it is for fans to handle this team’s inactivity, it must be infinitely worse for Gibbons and the players. Other than the switch at catcher, the Jays have gone 20 full months (since the Dickey trade) without making any notable roster moves. The Orioles made several moves, the Yankees made a ton of moves even when they seemingly had no chance due to their injuries, and even the Rays and Red Sox are going ahead and making moves with an eye to 2015. The Jays, meanwhile, are doing absolutely nothing and the players have to be as confused as we are about what the hell this organization is planning.

    • Rasmus didn’t appear to be giving much effort to catching balls last night, and Reyes didn’t look good when he made his error.

      Really though, what could AA have done to help this team? 1 player isn’t going to turn 4-12 into 12-4.

      The entire team looked pathetic at the plate last night, and assuming you can believe Buck accurately reported what the hitting coaches game plan was not 1 player went up there following the plan, instead all just swinging away trying to pad their personal stats.

      Until the plate discipline that they all demonstrated so well in May returns (and presumably then the home runs return), this team isn’t going to win.

      • Oh please pride alone makes them try hard. Not to mention thousands of hours of training and playing.

        You look bad when you lose. And they are losing.

        The rotation was doing better than expected and has tired/regressed. The offence is still missing some bats and has tapered off. It’s miserable to watch but it isn’t some deep conspiracy. They are playing against another group of elite players every day. If you could just will yourself to win, there wouldn’t be a need for any games at all.

      • “Rasmus didn’t appear to be giving much effort to catching balls last night…”

        Uh, what? The guy was running his ass off.

  3. Didn’t see the game as I’m in Prague and just woke up. What happened? Or do I want to know?

    • Lol im in prague as well, strange coincidence

      Fuck prague though

      • You’re in Prague and complaining about it? You’re a total fuckin’ idiiot. Wow. I didn’t think your kind existed — but there you are! In Prague, no less!

        • Hey, maybe Loup there it is just got his heart broken in Prague? Maybe he fell in love with a girl in Prague, but she left him for someone else? Maybe he’s sitting on some bench some where with a bottle of wine, bitterly raising it to the stars and cursing Prague. Cursing it to the heavens. Prague ruined him. Forever.

          Or maybe he just doesn’t like the weather, I dunno.

  4. Still back 4.5 games, so there’s still hope of turning the ship around…the losses mounting are disheartening but still considered to be contending until they are at least 8 games out, imo.

    • The GB in and of itself is not the most important factor. The other teams involved are.

      4.5 gb if you have no one to pass is not too daunting. 4.5 gb with 4 teams ahead of you is almost impossible.

      We need to get really hot (an ability we haven’t shown since May) while 4 other teams get cold.

      • Exactly. It isn’t how many games back a team is, it’s how many teams are ahead of them.

        Cleveland has now passed them in the wildcard race as well. Obviously not impossible, but highly unlikely. Put a fork in it.

  5. Could conceivably be behind Seattle, Detroit, Yankees, Cleveland and the Rays for the 2nd wildcard after this weekend.

  6. I thought it was crazy a couple of months ago but it’s not unfathomable to think Bautista asks for a trade this offseason.
    Though of you trade him you essentially punting on 2015 though and should trade EE too if you do that

    • I think it’s more likely then not that he does. He doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy who appreciates being lied to his face by ownership. Considering he’s playing below market value, he prob feels like he’s owed more of a commitment from management.

      That said, he could still bring back a helluva package and as long as it were MLB ready talent, trading him doesn’t have to be a “punt 2015″ move.

  7. I don’t mind players piping up and having strong opinions. This is ridiculous though. Barry Bonds in his prime would at best have this team at .500 ball since the deadline. Not even. This level of suckiness is well beyond any one or two roster spots to turn around.

  8. I just realised that I have little motivation to watch these guys now. They’re playing poorly. They don’t even like themselves or believe in themselves (or some of them don’t). AA isn’t doing much or saying much. Rogers is Rogers. They’re behind multiple teams to even get a WC game. Damn… and I’m a fan and generally want to stick up for these guys.

  9. Pompey promoted to Buffalo.

  10. Could be several reasons for promoting Norris and Pompey to Buffalo.
    Neither is on the 40 man roster.
    We won’t see Pompey in Sept. and maybe not Norris either.

    Could be selling hope, giving the fans something positive to talk about.
    Could be showcasing them as MLB ready prospects (for trade purposes)
    Could be simply a case of their deserving it.
    We shall see.

  11. Even though the finish has been disappointing, this has been my favourite Jays season since I became a fan in the late 90s. I can’t remember the last time they really played meaningful baseball in August, even if that chance is being squandered. Normally they’re out of it by July and I’m just watching to fill the time.

    It’s awesome to care, actually care, this late in the season.

    • They had 3 games that I count as “meaningfull”. That series vs. Baltimore a few weeks ago.

      All the games before that were a little too early to feel “meaningful” and all the games after it never really felt like we were “in the hunt” anymore.

      • They are still in the hunt. It’s hard to see it, because they’ve been losing recently, but if they won 80% of their games, they would stand an excellent chance at being in.

        Think of the 80s: a lot of disappointments, and a lot of good process. As hard as it is to see at the moment, not selling our best prospects for a few months of Lester/Price/etc was good process. Not that the passing-of-the-hat debacle wasn’t, mind you. But I feel so much better about “maybe next year” than in the past, partially because instead of, “Well, we’ve got some good pitchers in the pipeline!”, it’s “we’ve got so many good pitchers that we don’t know what happens when Morrow comes back.”

        Then again, I’m also a Canucks fan, so I’m pretty good at handling annual, crushing disappointments.

      • No all games in a playoff hunt are meaningful man. Cmon.

        I had so much hope this year and they let me down so hard. I don’t know if I prefer that or just having no expectations. It’s hard to decide. Both suck.

    • They finished 2nd 5 or 6 years ago. I thought they were still in it pretty deep that year.

  12. With regard to player attitudes/comments/trade demands etc:
    Winning solves everything.
    Losing breeds discontent, back biting and finger pointing.
    It is a situation that is hardly unique to the Blue Jays.

    But nothing that has happened from last November to today
    is going to help when it comes to attracting free agents this off season.

    • Is it this coming offseason for the new turf they promised? The grass in Milwaukee
      sure looks great btw.

  13. As they continue to lose, the garbage clowns are winning the day. Turns out you can’t go on prolonged losing streaks against beatable opponents and expect to make the playoffs. Who knew!?

  14. I think we can safely assume that Edwin and Adam coming back wasn’t the tonic we were hoping for.

    I also wonder if Lawrie getting injured like he did had an effect on the clubhouse, too. You’re down because you’re in a playoff spot and management added very little at the deadline. Then, the first of the calvary comes back and lasts all of one at bat.

    Then you have the longest game in team history, and you have to fly to the west coast. You’d hope the Jays would be able to play through it, but they’re human and I could see them getting down. I don’t think for a second they’re mailing it in, but they certainly look discouraged.

    • I agree these things could all have some relevance and effect.

      • Also I think people overlooked the timing issue. For guys to get accustomed to MLB pitching, they need to hit against MLB pitching. Sometimes that takes awhile.

        • Karl – yeah, but to be fair I think a lot of people (including a lot of people here) were aware that it could take a while.

          Hell, Edwin was a poo-poo platter in April. It sometimes takes a while. Unfortunately for the team, the games are ticking down.

    • The long game and west coast stuff yeah. The team going into a deep depression because of brett lawrie’s injury to the point where they collapse the season…no.

      • The Lawrie thing could be the cherry on the shit sundae. Not enough to cause a problem on its own, but on the back of a bad stretch…

        You know how that last little thing at the end of a crappy day can really put you over the edge? I can easily see losing Red Bull when you were hoping he’d solidify the lineup and the D would be a huge downer.

  15. The Oakland A’s have had a marvellous August so far.

    • What does that mean though? That adding a LHP ace has hurt the team?

      This logic just dent wash because you just don’t know how they would have done. Baseball has ups and downs. Maybe they lose MORE if they don’t make the trade.

      The process is more important then the result, because the process is the only thing you can control.

      Baseball is a weighted random number generator. The more “weight” (I.e. talent) you can add to the equation the more likely you are to have a favorable outcome. Doesn’t mean you ALWAYS will.

      The logic your using is the exact same as someone playing blackjack and feels that hitting on 20 is a good move. Then he gets a 20, hits, and draws an ace. Yes, the result was good. The process was still inherently flawed.

      Oakland and Detroit added some of the best pitchers in the game. That’s the correct process for a team in a pennant race. Doesn’t mean it will always work out but it gives you the beat chance to win. More often then not, you’ll come out on top

      • I do think that what’s happening to Detroit and Oakland shows that there isn’t a magic bullet at the trade deadline. It’s not like the team that makes the splashiest trades ends up winning it all.

        I know it’s a cliche, but baseball is frickin’ hard, and while Rob is right about always wanting the best talent, it’s not always the team with the best talent that wins. There is luck and chemistry and matchups.

        I mean, Baltimore added one left handed reliever to a pretty solid bullpen at the deadline and they’re going gonzo. Baseball’s weird that way.

      • Wow Rob. You read a lot of “my” logic into that. Tell me more about the logic in a single sarcastic sentence.

        Anyway, the point being that a team’s record over a few weeks is highly random and can’t be pinned to given events like a trade, or multiple trades, as the sole source of variation in the record. The As have a better record in July than August and made trades. The Jays have a better record in July than August and didn’t make trades. Baseball players aren’t always particularly bright people, and if they want to blame someone for their play, I guess some of them will come up with something.

        But the logic of “B is happening because of A” is extremely flawed in this case because there are clearly contradictory cases. Other factors probably play a larger role.

        • You guys are fucked in the head.

          One guy.

          Brad Mills.

        • But it’s not random. And comparing any team to the Jays isn’t a valid comparison because the teams are all made up of different individuals with different personalities, expectations etc.
          The Jays were clearly hoping (expecting?) for reinforcements and the deadline and were clearly disappointed to not get any.
          It’s fair to contemplate a link their state of mind to their absolute shit performance since then.

          • What isn’t random – the W-L record over a few weeks? Sure, not completely, but highly. To paraphrase Dave Cameron from his recent chat, (1) don’t make much of a few weeks of games as evidence that a team is better or worse, and (2) you’re almost certainly underestimating randomness.

            The Blue Jays are not actually a notably worse team than they were in July, so you’d have to believe that the difference between (1) a trade for a player that, at best, would have made a marginal difference, and (2) no trade, is that basically the same group of guys are now a much worse ball team than they were a few weeks ago. I don’t believe that – I can see why people would, but if that’s the debate, it’s really not worth having.

            I think it’s far more likely the excuse follows the stream of events rather than that the excuse is the reason for that stream of events.

  16. A Rolling Stone song keeps popping into my head….

    I dreamt of playoffs,
    But its all over now…..

  17. Almost time to start following NFL and let the Jays’ off-season begin early.

  18. heard JP Morosi this morning…jays have the WORST record since the trade deadline…you think it is coincidence? Or is there some perception that the team feels AA lied about when the time is right they would make a trade…this from the same group of guys who were willing to defer money to get Santana to be a better team…shows you how much they want to win..regardless if AA wanted to make a move or not this looks bad on him from a perception stand point and it could impact Jose asking for a trade and Melky not signing..i refuse to believe the Jays will outbid other teams for Melky…they will probably tell him the same thing they told jose…take the home town discount..we’ll build a contender…

    as much as i want the jays to win…if they can’t win with this group they have to make some changes…but man another rebuild will be taxing as a fan

    • stop…doing…this…fer chrissakes

      • stop what? my opinion? i could have sworn i was entitled to it…did i speak of anything that wasn’t absurd?

        • Your opinion? No idea — didn’t read the post because…of…this…get…it?

    • JB didn’t give the Jays a hometown discount.After one spectacular year both he and the Jays took a risk and signed what turned out to be a steal for the Jays.Same can be said for EE,it worked out great for the Jays.
      It didn’t work in the Jays favor with Romero for example.
      It’s business.
      As for AA,yeah he’s the contact point for the players but Rogers exec’s were the ones who broke the promises after the big speach in Spring Training.
      I find it interesting, the flipping and flopping damage control done by the media types employed by Sportsnet and Rogers.
      The fan backlash at the news that” the Jays couldn’t take on salary in a trade” before the trade deadline. Then after the deadline,”here’s 10 Mil, if you can use it”.For what? A waiver claim?Where was this before the deadline?

    • So the players want to win so desperately that not adding at the deadline made them emotional basket cases to the point where they can no longer win ?

      Seems to me they were winning just fine up to deadline day (10 over) and had lind /EE coming around the corner .

      Why would their ability to win suddenly crash .

      • It’s more of an accumulation….if in fact you’re inclined that way.
        And it started back in the off season with the laundry list of AA’s 2014 needs.
        He announced that he was looking for 1 perhaps 2 SPs; Then a 2B; Then
        (I believe) a catcher. We waited and waited (and waited ) for the announcements
        which didn’t come. Then when ST was about to start and every other reason
        for AA to not sign 1 pitcher was gone, Santana signed with the Braves and the news about the salary deferral came out..
        Leads one to wonder where they’d be today if Santana had signed.

    • This is stupid. Why do you say this bullshit?

  19. I just have to comment on the “bautista will want out” shit.
    First of all, as I have said, they have good players not a good team. Bautsista is a core player on a good contract and I personally would not move him or EE before next July at the absolute earliest. I would move one of Dickey or Buerhle if at all possibe to free up money, keep the other as a inning eater and no 4 guy.
    Finally, Bautista can ask for a trade all he wants, AA doesn’t have to do anything, or maybe, JB gets traded to a place that is worse like CHC or sdomething. It’s not like JB can dictate where he is traded to. The Grass is always greener and all that

  20. So when can we expect the Guy Lawrence statue to be erected beside ol’ Teddy?

  21. When does the person saying the season is over stop being viewed as a ‘garbage clown’ and start being right?

    I’d say any day now

    • Shaddup, garbage clown!

    • What makes an asshole a ‘Garbage Clown’ is not claiming that the deficit may be to large. It’s the stupidity in claiming that our team has gone 4-12 in August because of the lack of a deadline move. Detroit made a ‘deadline move’. They were in first place when they did it. Now they’ve given up years of Smyly, Adames and Austin Jackson for one year and two months of David Price. So far with Price and that deal they have fallen out of first place in their division, and perhaps fallen out of the wild card, to the very team they gave Austin Jackson to.

      Similarly, Oakland made a ‘deadline deal’ too. They were solidly in first place and no longer are. They could fall out of the playoffs entirely.

      Fortunately, AA is not stupid like the Garbage Clowns on this forum. He’s not going to trade Hutchison, Stroman, Sanchez etc for a short rental of a player who isn’t going to sign long terms with the Jays, and end up worse off in both the short term and the long term.

      • Well said JB.

      • Not just about the deadline, though. There were big holes in the roster that were apparent last year.

        As much as I’d like to blame Rogers alone, ultimately this is on AA. He has $130M this year, more than other teams that will make the playoffs. He’s made some poor bets and his reluctance to part with assets – marginal and otherwise – has hurt the team’s chances this year.

        • Pretty much every team has holes though, otherwise every team would be playing .500

          It’s easy to say AA should have done something, entirely something else to actually come up with something that improves the team.

          Just consider that that both the Yankees and Boston, teams considered to have unlimited funds, fielded mediocre to terrible teams this year.

      • JB with the SMACKDOWN!

      • I contend there is value both in incremental improvements AND in showing the fanbase/players that your committed.

        You make a move if it improves your team and won’t cost too much. If it works, it works. If it doesn’t, at least everyone knows you did what needed.to be done to try to win.

        What’s happening now is the fanbase is incredibly frustrated, the players sound like they could be in open revolt, and who knows what’s going to happen with Bautista/Jansen in the off season?

        • Lots of people are “frustrated” RobA. Lots are disappointed. They don’t go acting like dicks on the internet posting stupidity about ‘deadline deals’ making a difference to a team that’s gone 4-12. .

          Get over yourself. You’re not that important. You’re certainly not interesting.

      • I think attributing to the lack of a deadline move is stupid too. I agree with you.

        Where I disagree is this whole fucking thing that someone losing hope on the season is a “garbage clown”.

        I’m going to go ahead and continue to watch and support the Jays but in my heart I know this shit is over. Hyper overdrive turbo over.

        Lucky I have these 3 pairs of Pittsburgh Pirates VS Milwaukee Brewers tickets for Sept 19th weekend sitting here on my desk. PNC Park, here I come.

      • well said JB

    • When Stoeten gives you permission.
      And that’ll be when the Jays are mathematically eliminated.

      You gotta know the “garbage clown” rules,if you’re gonna play the game.
      Jeesh

    • The only garbage clown around here is the one that bans everyone who rationally disagrees with him.

      Yep, he hates rational disagreements much more than the ones that make his dissenters look foolish.

      Go on ridiculous rants and you’re less likely to be banned here. I was banned a long time ago for saying I wasn’t sure AA made the right trades at the time of his trades. I backed this up with logic – banned.

      Then I was banned again for saying that I wasn’t sure Rasmus’ numbers would be sustainable last year because of peripherals.

      Most recently I just noticed that I’ve been banned again but I can’t think of for what. I’ve never posted enough here to become recogninzable…….unless a certain garbage clown takes these comments far too seriously

      • Methinks there might be more to these stories than suggested…

        • Yeah, there are different opinions on here all the time. Sometimes they’re ridiculous and backed up by nothing at all or even backed up by things that are completely made up. And those people still don’t get banned.

        • Really I wish there was. I’ve barely even intercated with the guy. We were having a baseball disagreement one time. No foul language, no personal attacks on any player, manager or anyone. Just a disagreement on baseball. I was banned about 3 responses in.

          Didn’t post anything for a long time, eventhough I clearly know how to. Next time I did I was banned again.

          I think I figured out the last ban. I made some comments about not liking the second WC format and that I want the Jays to make the playoffs by winning the division.

          There really isn’t anything more to the story. I have posted some negative things simply because there hasn’t been a ton to be positive about with this team over the last……20 years.

          Still, nothing that would get someone banned on a normal baseball discussion forum. I have never trolled the site and never spammed the site. Literally barely post here but have still somehow been banned from multiple places.

          It’s his blog and I’m not going to keep posting. But I thought some might be interested in the way it’s moderated and the level of control the moderater takes in the discussion.

      • Banned from a blog! The horror!!!

        • The problem is Stoeten doesn’t have a ‘User Agreement’ where it says ‘do X and you’ll find yourself banned’. Stoeten is judge, juror, and executioner….which is fine as it’s his blog, but he should still have the courtesy not to disrespect the people who’ve allowed him to get his beloved press-credentials and be in the inner-circle.

          I was once banned for pointing out that Stoeten himself did not play the game at a high level. That is a fact. But he didn’t like it, so I was arbitrarily banned. I was also banned for pointing out that Stoeten could be reporting club-house type stuff (Rasmus being habitually late) prior to mainstream media, but he doesn’t.

          • Him not playing the game at a high level is a check mark in my books. You know who played the game at a high level? Joe Morgan. You know who else? Greg Zaun.

            I’d take a million sniveling Stoetens over one smiling, borderline retarded Joe Morgan.

    • As was discussed yesterday, there are four examples over the last three years of teams coming back to make the playoffs after having deficits as big as or larger than what the Jays are facing on August 20.

      The chances are slim and dwindling with every loss, but they still exist, and we know this team has the talent to put a run together and get right back into the race.

      If I had said on June 6, when the Jays had a 6 game lead in the division, that the season was over, it would have been dumb. If the Jays miss the playoffs, it doesn’t make me right.

      • agree completely, I not endorsing anyone who ‘predicted’ this fall in the standings. Just wondering how many of us that were optimists for playoffs over the last couple weeks have now pretty much given up on this year. I pretty much have. now instead of watching every pitch I basically watch every other inning until they are 2-3 runs down, and then get depressed and just check the score later. I was really hoping for meaningful September baseball for the Jays, not complaining, not throwing any insults, and definitely not any ‘I predicted this’ as this is the last thing I wanted. I like this team, I like AA, no one could’ve predicted after the moves of before last season that this team would under perform like this, and if they did, they were lucky not knowledgeable. I’m just sad about how things are turning out, and was wondering if this is a place to sulk yet, or if that isn’t allowed till things are further out of reach.

        All that being said, a 6 game winning streak would have me watching every pitch again

      • Meh – horrible and wonderful things happen to people who don’t deserve it all the time. I’m not really into cheering for a spinning roulette wheel. I want to LIKE my team. I want to LIKE ownership. I want to LIKE going to the ballpark. That doesn’t mean we have to be favorites every year but it would be nice to know everybody is putting their best foot forward and I’m just not feeling that in 2014.

        • Agreed.
          The ballpark sucks, and so does the ownership.
          My next trip to Toronto will certain involve a side-trip to the Rogers statue to drape a “I was a shitty owner when I was alive too!” sign over it.

      • This team is simply not that good .

        Did you see rasmus in cf and Reyes at shortstop ? Kawasakis arm on that throw home ?

        Juxtapose that to the plays the brewers were making

        This teams biggest problem is overall team defense . Reyes is becoming insufferable with his lack of range / effort . He needs to be moved off it next year .

        Rasmus gives you nothing on either side of the ball save for running into a fastball once every 10 games

      • Firstly, I think people will probably think Still Here is me, but he’s not. Just for the record.

        Secondly, Phillbert this argument is so flawed man. You’re pointing to an exception and trying to make it the rule. How about all the teams over all the recent years who were in a similar position, or a better position, as the Jays right now and didn’t overcome the deficit? There are far more examples of that then whatever crap examples you’re pulling out.

        Furthermore, citing some example where one team overcame a 5 game deficit to beat ONE OTHER team is a totally useless comparison. The Jays need to overcome a 4.5 deficit with MULTIPLE teams in their way. Do you not realize how fucking different those two situations are?

    • We’re approaching that point. It’s hard to say the season is over when you’re only 4 1/2 games back of the second wild card in mid-August, but if the Jays players keep on playing the way they’re playing, we might find ourselves quite a bit further back.

  22. I didn’t know the Orioles have announced they’re moving Ubaldo to the bullpen.

    Talk about buyer’s remorse.

  23. Sure, Anthopoulos could have traded for David Price. But the other 24 guys would still have the contribute more than nothing. The players have a right to be upset, but they’re just the players. They have their head in the sand for a reason, and that’s why it always sounds like they’re talking out of their ass.

  24. Anthopolous outlined why the team didn’t make moves at the deadline in that they weren’t willing to move the most promising prospects to do so in Norris, Sanchez, etc. Other teams (Oakland, NYY) were willing to do so. Clearly, Anthopolous is in a payroll freeze situation which is why he is picking up pieces of waiver and not making big moves.

    The reasoning I think is that the core team in May that went 21-4 is still here, save Lawrie. The only people to blame for their losing record is the people sitting on that bench not performing: Reyes for his defensive blunders, Bautista for his lack of hitting with RISP and lack of HR production, Rasmus, Tolleson and Francisco for their general uselessness and underperformance. And then the latest pitching hiccups in tough starts for most of the rotation save Dickie who has been his usual mediocre self.

    Baltimore, Seattle and Oakland got better, but getting swept by Seattle had nothing to do with not making moves. Toronto couldn’t score runs. Losing the ChiSox series 2-1 had nothing to do with the White Sox improving themselves, it had to do with very poor starts by Stromann and Hutch. And Happ is not pitching particularly well either.

    The players could whine all they want. The only thing you can pin on Anthopolous and the Jays management is not finding a mid-season replacement for Hutch if indeed he needs the rest. My suspicion is that Hutch’s next start will be his last for 2014 if he has another crap start.

    The team should just hold up a mirror for the rest of it. We saw them go 9-1 after the all-star break without a move being made and without Lind and Edwin. If players are going to whine about going 4-12 in August because Anthopolous did nothing, the players need to be reminded of the 9-1 stretch when Anthopolous did othing and the 18-4 run in May when Anthopolous did nothing.

    The team can win. They just have to perform.

    • How does Bautista get this reputation? 2014 line with RISP:

      .300/.432/.509, wOBA of .387

      • He sucked with RISP in that Baltimore series, and hasn’t done a whole lot (That I remember) since. I’d guess that’s where the recent perception comes from.

      • Take apart Bautista’s RiSP numbers a bit further:

        2 outs: 4 for 36 (.111 / .347 / .250) and 13 walks.
        1 out: 17 for 39 (..436/ .536 / .743) and 13 walks.
        0 out: 12 for 35 (.343 / .357 / .514) and 3 walks.

        It’s the 2 out RISP numbers that are somewhat appalling.

    • The lack of position player depth is killing this team just like last year.

      • Lack of position depth??? Are you fucking joking???

        Dan Johnson (DL), Nolan Reimold, Danny Valencia, Gose, Kawasaki, Thole, Kratz, Nickeas, Who the fuck do you think they’re going to have as depth? Dustin Pedroia??

        Best depth they’ve had in 15 years.

    • Consider who some of the complainers were at the trade deadline, and then look at the stats for the last 7 days.

      Bautista – .167
      Melky – .227

      They should be embarrassed that that are both being out hit be Rasmus.

      Meanwhile, the “nothing” “don’t count” “invisible” players that AA acquired prior to the deadline – Reimold has hit .400 and Valencia .333

      Which of course begs the question why aren’t these players playing more and the poor performers – Bautista and Francisco, benched?

      • Bautista benched?

        Are you fucking mad?

        • I think it was just to prove a point, the regulars havent been doing very well in our losing streak, where as the bench is doing ok. So really the team has no one to blame but themselves at this point.

      • Valencia and Reimold can’t hit right handed pitching.

        Bautista is the MLB leader in OBP. Yeah, bench him!

      • I’m not a bean counter, but holy hell cherry picking stats from 7 days compared to years of amazing production is ridiculous.

    • @ Tim

      But the 9-1 was against Boston,Texas and NY.
      Losing to Houston was rough.

  25. Nobody seems to be addressing some more underlying reasons they are struggling.

    For one, Juan doesnt hit when he plays 1b. For his career he hits .210/.289 and this year he has hit .189/.271. He has played 8 games in August at frist and the preceding 7 in July at first. His avg and OBP dropped around 30 % points for each. It’s clear Juan struggles to hit when he plays 1b, why, nobody knows, but we saw similar things with EE when he moved from 3b to 1b/DH so it could be a mental preparedness issue. Juan’s #’s are much better as a DH and 3b however.

    Another thing regarding Juan is he has struggled enormously with runners on especially with RISP, so I question why he wasn’t slotted lower in the lineup. I understand he’s got game changing HR power but both his 2014 and career stats suggest he is terrible when it comes to cashing in those runners, he’s significantly better in low leverage situations.

    • Juan Francisco is just not a good player. Defensively-challenged, slow running power hitters with poor plate discipline and a massive platoon split just isn’t a model for sustained success in this league.

      it was fun while he was mashing and drawing enough walks to make us believe he’d taken a step forward, but i think we’re past that now.

      • Yeah. I don’t understand why he wasn’t DFA’d a while ago. It’s not like no-glove, high strikeout guys with power are rare, precious flowers in MLB.

    • This entire paragraph is more accurate if you just use the lead on sentence:

      “Juan Francisco doesn’t hit when he plays”

  26. This team is just not that good. They’ll snap out of this funk eventually, but probably only to finish at or slightly above .500. In a different year where Baltimore doesn’t overperform, it might have been enough. Unfortunately, in baseball a decent proportion of teams always over- and underperform their true talent level in a given year.

    We all knew the weaknesses of this team were on the run prevention side, and that’s exactly where they are now. They’ve been shutdown recently by good pitching, but I’d wager their putrid August record has more to do with having only 6 quality starts than the quiet bats. Hutch has hit the wall, Stroman may be hitting it, and Buerhle is getting hit hard by the regression demons. With all of those guys slumping at the same time, going on a decent run is near impossible. Also not helping their cause is a very mediocre pen (it stopped being a strength when Delabar and Santos could no longer hit the plate), and an everyday lineup that gives up defense at every position. It was a pipe dream for this team to make the playoffs, but a hot month blew expectations out of proportion. That they are slightly out of .500 and slowly falling out of contention should not be a surprise – this is the team we had from the beginning.

  27. It seems many are looking at the lack of trade deadline activity purely from a statstical standpoint, of course, how much WAR would headley and a bp arm really add anyway?

    But what about the psychological effect it has on the rest of the players? Don’t you think it bands everybody together, knowing the whole organization is aiming to win, and will bring in a name like Headley to compete? Rather then having the Jays doing nothing (after close to nothing in the off season), as Bautista’s complaint obviously shows the team is not happy.

    I’m not saying it’s right and I agree with them, I think the team is good enough to compete talent-wise, but for anyone of any level of any game, your mental viewpoint has an enormous effect on your performance. Maybe just 1 or 2 guys get on the plate with a more positive outlook, and that could spark a huge inning. We’ve seen the thin lines between winning and losing in baseball.

    • Yup

    • In reality the players are putting a scapegoat on their losing streak an its the lack of activity by AA, (even though the valencia aquisition was like 2 weeks before the deadline).

      Realistically Headley might have been the most beneficial to the team, but I think the Jays figured Lawrie would be back soon anyway.

      They other pitching aquisitions cost way to much capital, and if some of the rumours are correct, getting either lester or price just wouldnt be feasible.

    • Yeah that’s more or less what I was getting at above.

      It’s easy to think “these guys are pros, they should never let off the field stuff affect their play”. But they’re also human too. Just like any other human, morale (or lack thereof) can seriously affect performance. To think otherwise is just ignoring reality.

      I think there’s value in showing the players that if they do what’s expected of them (be in contention at the deadline) than they will be supported by committed ownership. Even if the move doesn’t work.

    • I agree. I’m sure we’ve all been there in our work situations. If the powers that be upgrade, say, the kitchen, does it make a real difference to your work skills? Of course it doesn’t. But a little thing like that can have a psychological effect, make you that bit happier coming to work. Which can lead to incremental better performance.

      That Bautista and Janssen went public – and by all accounts were speaking for the room – indicate that the players were hoping for a sign that management was committed to them, didn’t get it, and that took some air out of them. I’m sure that the “hat passing” with Santana was an earlier kick in the shins, and the quiet deadline just added to the frustration.

      • I wonder if Valencia was traded for a week after his aquisition if he would count as “trade deadline”

        • Hey, nothing against Valencia, but it’s not like anyone would consider him a “wow! we’re really going for it this year!” kinda pickup.

          That’s not a hit on his value or lack thereof. He’s a useful piece when it’s clear the team was hoping for something more impactful. It doesn’t mean that they’re right, but if that was there perception than picking up Valencia when they did or one week later wouldn’t have made much of a difference to their mindset.

  28. I now think it’s time for the Jays to start making moves to improve the 2015 team and would consider dealing any of the following guys:
    1. Colby Rasmus – he’s not going to be back next year and now it doesn’t even look like he’s worth giving a qualifying offer.
    2. Jose Reyes – he’s got a lot of money coming to him over the next few years that could probably be better spent.
    3. Mark Buehrle – I like him, but he just makes too much, and I also worry that his production could fall off the map given his age.
    4. Adam Lind – Yes he’s had a good year and I would only deal him if I got something I liked in return, however this guy is a major injury concern.
    5. Melky Cabrera – He could bring a nice return and he’s not signed past this season
    6. Dionner Navarro – He’s a nice piece, but if you can get something for him he should be dealt. It would also make me happy never having to see him hitting 4th for the Jays again.
    7. J. Happ – With Norris and Sanchez on the cust of joining the Jays rotation, I just don’t see him as part of this teams long term plans. Again, I preface this by saying he shouldn’t be traded just to be traded, but if you can get something decent for him, or if he’s that extra piece to make a team give up a player the Jays really want, then do it.
    8. Cecil, Loup, McGowan and Redman – see the last sentence in #7.
    9. Janssen – he’s about to become expensive, and do the Jays really want to spend a lot on a closer? However if the Jays deal Reyes and/or Buehrle it might make more sense to hang on to him.

    It seems to me the Jays have a lot of nice pieces that could potentially bring back some good cost controlled players for the 2015 season. I’d rather they try that than bet on a long shot and go all in this season.

    • Anyone traded now would have to clear waivers. Guys loke Reyes and Buerhle prob would, but casey/Lind prob doesn’t get through.

      Not to mention any player we get also has to clear waivers. Despite what AA said about “August being a great time to get pieces” it just takes a lot to match up in August.

      • Yes, you are 100% right.

        I would put all of these guys on waivers (if they haven’t already) and those that didn’t get through waivers I would probably pull back. Though if Reyes or Buehrle got claimed I would think long and hard about letting them go.

        Also, as I said, I wouldn’t trade anyone just for the sake of making a deal. I only make a deal if I get a player back that I really like, or makes this team better next season.

      • Also, in reality we’re going to get bupkiss back for any free agent to be. Melky absolutely would not get a great return – he’s essentially a one month rental now.

        • Does this mean you don’t inquire about dealing him?

          You never know, some team may think he’s the missing piece for their World Series championship and don’t really care about the last month of the season, they want him for the playoffs.

          • Hell, Jeff Bagwell was traded for Larry Anderson on August 30th, certainly Melky Cabrera is worth more than Larry Anderson.

            • Well, maybe…but the Bagwell deal is notorious for being one of the worst in baseball history, and it occured 24 years ago. That’s paleothic time in how front offices operate.

              • Plus, I bet if you trade Melky Joey Bats is asking to get the fuck out within 10 minutes of it being announced.

                • So you don’t try to improve this team for next year? I forgot that Jose Bautista’s feelings were more important than winning.

                  • Well duh. But if you tick off your best player for what will likely be no better than a B level prospect, do you consider that good asset management?

                    I mean, if you can get a once in a lifetime, Bagwell for Andersen trade, go for it. But I’ll betcha a box of doughnuts that you’ll be disappointed at what the return for Melky would be – and that’s IF you get him to clear waivers.

                    Like Cabrera says, I understand that you want to make the Jays better, but I don’t see how any of your suggestions make the Jays better either in the short or long term.

                    • You wouldn’t trade Cabrera for any less than the draft pick compensation you would get if you offered him a qualifying offer and he signed elsewhere. So no a B level prospect probably doesn’t cut it.

                      As for ticking Bautista off, I would keep him included in the dialogue if an offer comes up that I’m considering making and make sure he understands and is on board. Ultimately if I thought that a deal was good for the team, I might make it regardless of what Bautista thought.

        • Much more than that if you’re headed to the playoffs.
          He might look good in an Oakland uniform.
          I’d prefer to extend him, but if that’s not going to happen,
          might as well explore the alternatives.

          • Or how about the following scenarios:

            - KC is in a dog fight with the Tigers, I bet they would be very interested in upgrading from Lorenzo Cain to Cabrera
            - Maybe Baltimore wants to upgrade from Delmon Young?
            - Brennan Boesch and his .345 OPS is currently in LAA’s regular line-up
            - I’m not sure how comfortable St. Louis is about playing Oscar Taveras in a playoff run with his .555 OPS

    • If there was a time to sellers, that was at the trade deadline and we were still in second place. Now we just have to suck it up and hope for the best.

    • Problem is, your ideas do not improve the team in the short or long term.

      • Maybe I didn’t explain myself enough.

        YOU DON”T MAKE A DEAL IF IT DOESN”T MAKE THE TEAM BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        If there are no deals to be made then you don’t make any deals. But if you don’t explore your options, you shouldn’t be a GM for a major league team.

  29. Guys I would not trade include:

    1. Bautista
    2. Encarnacion
    3. Dickey – yes I said Dickey, he has a nice contract and still puts up decent numbers
    4. They young arms – Stroman, Hutchison, Sanchez, Norris, etc.

    That is all.

    • Of the two middle infield spots, the Jays have a huge hole at 2B and one of the best SS in league. Yes, he makes a lot of money, but that also means his trade value would be suppressed. The return would be minimal at best, and he currently provides a ton of on-field value to the Jays.

      • Reyes will make $70 million over the next three years, also the Jays have $100 million tied up in 9 players for next season, therefore, if they don’t deal him (or Buehrle), be prepared for this team to look very similar next season.

        • The problem is, who do you replace at short? Goins? Getting rid of Reyes ala Wells just isnt smart. And if we wanted a a good return we would have to eat salary. Which doesnt solve the payroll.

          Buehrle I can get behind dealing. Just cause our pitching depth in prospects is finally coming to fruition. Doesnt matter if we get close to nothing, that salary payroll shedding is huge.

          • I wouldn’t trade Reyes if it involved eating salary, it just doesn’t make sense, so then if that’s the only option, I agree that you don’t trade him.

            As for who would replace him if you did trade him? Obviously you would have to go outside the organization to get a player, but with an extra $22 million you would have a lot more flexibility to do that.

            • Yeah I get the concept, replace the 3-4 WAR player with 2 players at other holes to cover the loss.

              Reyes is very much like a catch 22. The problem is that his value isnt better or worse than his contract. If he was a shortstop like Tulo with that kind of contract, it would be a no brainer to stay. If he was more like Andrus, we could deal him ala Wells.

        • Peter a great comment and I agree 100 percent. of three guys id consider trading Buehrle, Reyes and Dickey to lower salary. Reyes is only one that may get you a high shelf return. The other two get you a B prospect based on age and dollars owed. Trading Reyes would get a return and free up some cash to add to roster. Im a huge Reyes fan with what he can do on offense but he just makes two many mistakes at key times for me to think of him as a guy i wouldn’t move

          • And who fills the hole at shortstop and the 400 solid innings out of the rotation? Who do you spend that saved money on that actually makes the team better than it is today?

        • As long as the turf stays, Reyes will be a mirage defensively.

    • A GM has to explore all options. Seattle traded Ken Griffey Jr in 1999 and won 116 games 2 years later. No one player makes or breaks a baseball team. It’s knowing when to make trades and to maximize the return. Lots of examples of this over time.

  30. I feel like the Jays are an emotional team. When things are going well they’re happy and they play well. When things go badly they get depressed and you can see it in their play. Might be part of the reason why they’re so streaky.

    I won’t suggest the Jays are deliberately sabotaging their season. No, they just disappointed about the trade deadline and the current losing streak, and can’t help themselves.

  31. The only way any of it changes, is to stop spending money on this team. Stop going to games, stop buying merchandise, in fact stop watching it on your Rogers owned cable.

    Otherwise it’ll be the same for many more years.

    • I want to blame Rogers, too, but the Jays are in the top 10 in MLB in terms of salary. The front office is ultimately accountable.

  32. Tao said it best, if players really felt demotivated after the deadline non deals, then they were always losers and no trade was going to change that.

    Look, i get it, i wish the jays made a good trade to bring in an arm. but its one arm.. What would the jays record have been if they added Price? maybe 1 extra win? maybe 2?

  33. 288 = 138-150
    27-5 + 11 game win streak = 33 games over .500

    That means for The rest of the time this team plays 45 games under .500

    Maybe this just isnt a very good team?

    • of all the arguements to make this is by far one of the dumbest. While I may agree with you conclusion, why the fuck would you discount their win streak and hot month? Did those games not count or anything?

      Discount their major losing streaks and worst month and whats their record?

      • I didn’t discount anything. Their record is 12 games below .500. They had two really good streaks. That’s it that’s all. The rest is losing streaks and bad months. Their current record since the trades before last season speaks for it self.

        The normal is under .500 the astrix is 43 games out 245

  34. Jays are in a good position waiver-wire wise right now, so if they are going to make any deals it should be this week, while their record is lower than most other serious playoff contenders.

    • It’s all rigged!

      AA has been telling the team to lose so he can get in on better waiver trades!

  35. I literally turned this game on for 15 minutes, watched Happ get the last out of the 1st inning and the bluejays bat in the 2nd, so I saw the only 2 hits the Jays got….sorry about that guys.

  36. Someone post what Arash tweeted, for those of us unable to access twitter.

    plzthx

    • Amidst a 1-4 road trip/4-11 August, a #Bluejays player told me: “Now you know what (Bautista) meant about not doing (crap) at the deadline.”

      • Hey I’m going to be a piece of shit for a sec:

        AA: Listen, Brotista. I know you’re making a fuckton less than market value. But this allows us to add to payroll. We’ll build a goddamn shit-ruining champion around you. TRUST ME.

        AA: Listen, Brotista. Hey, uh, haha, I need a solid. Can you defer some of your salary so that we can sign a pitcher? Oh you can? Aces. Hey, get some of the other dudes to do the same and we’ll lock this fucker up.

        AA: Listen, Brotista. My brother from a different mother! The trade deadline. That’s where we’ll load up. #2014 AMIRITE?

        AA: Listen, Brotista. …Brotista? You there?

        • Yeah. I don’t think the inactivity by itself is what’s got Joey B and the guys upset…it’s a straw. Placed on the back. Of a camel. Whose back proceeds to break.

          I’m pretty sure that’s how the analogy goes.

  37. Morosi was on the fan this morning. Im not a fan of the guy, but he made a great point stating that this was the perfect year to make a deadline move. On the other hand, maybe this team just wanst good enough to begin with.

  38. offseason is where the moves to be made should have been made – or early in the season as soon as Izturis was injured they lost their most valuable backup IF’er because there was a very high possiblility they’d lose Reyes and LAwrie to some injury at some point

    in hindsight they probably should have dealt Rasmus in offseason at his peak value – they could have packaged him with other pieces for a middle rotation pitcher or maybe tried to something like the Twins did with Span and send out for a pitching prospect, maybe one who would be available to pitch at some point in 2014

    the Jays had enough OF depth they could have rolled with Gose and Pillar in CF or at worst moved Melky over there and added some waiver depth a la Reimold at some point

    I think the Jays were enamored with Rasmus’ yr last year but he’s basically putting up Chris Young type numbers and Young is DFA’d so that about says it all

    • Would you bring back Colby on a two year 20 million deal?

      • I have a feeling he’ll take discounted 1 year deal with us to rebuild his value

      • I wouldn’ t even do 2/20 or 3/36

        Chris Young has made 23 mil the last 3 yrs in his age 28 to 30 seasons, put up 2 WAR, slash line of .220/.300 with 32 HRs and 110 RBI in 288 games played

        Rasmus is better than Young but I could see him put up similar #s to that. No thanks.

        Only way I’d take Rasmus back is on a 1 year deal for like 7-8 mil, otherwise I’m more than willing to let him walk. The risk of him having a great year next year would be offset by his offensive inconsistencies. So even on a 2 yr deal like 2/20 I’m not willing to pay that much just for one good year then an awful year. Rasmus has not shown the ability to string together consecutive good seasons.

        There are many players making far less than him at similar rate of productivity.

  39. wow Howarth just blasted rasmus and juan on baseball central. I do see his point as the jays starters are flyball pitchers and you do need great defense if your offense isn’t coming through

    • What did he say about them? Too many terrible ABs resulting in k’s.

    • thats why it was imperative they kept Gose up – his CF defense was offset the avg defense of Melk and Bau (whose bats you need) – Jays were losing tons of low scoring and 1-3 run games where having a guy like Gose in CF could have made a massive difference

      Rasmus has had some great catches in C no doubt but Gose has got to virtually every ball hit his way while Rasmus has had a pile of bad routes and I cant recall a single good relay from him in the last months . . . awful throws from field

      • Great points Dildo. I like Colby but his defence has been sub par IMO and his bat from last year has disappeared.

        • could be a confidence thing, I’ve never got the impression that Colby is firing on all cylinders other than that brief streak last year when he was mashing (May), some days he has got it and other days he looks like a lost puppy

          i dont really like putting stock in inatngibles but confidence is one area where it can have a big impact on your performance and Colby reminds a lot of Snider, both guys seem like they never could have enough self-confidence to push through their troubled development cycles

  40. Wow, Sid is crazy

  41. watching Sid on tv when they air the fan on sportsnet or the score is pretty funny . . . he has so much anger in his eyes

    • Sid is also sounding off on Fat Juan. Calling him the most selfish player on the Jays. So mush anger. I am surprised Wilner can look at him with a straight face.

  42. <3 Sid

  43. ugh… Barker is even worse than Zaun

  44. Desperation swing by Bau . . . gotta be better than that Jose

  45. Game threat up

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