Kansas City Royals v Toronto Blue Jays

You might not agree with the way that he got himself tossed in a crucial game Sunday against the Rays, or his continued insistence that it was an unjust ejection (though Shi Davidi of Sportsnet has a piece that sure makes it seem like he’s right). You may not have liked the way he essentially threw teammates at the bottom of the roster under the bus when he griped about the fact that the Blue Jays were unable to make any moves at the July 31st trade deadline, while teams around them in the race did what they could to make additions. Perhaps you think that all of this stuff — rather than an athlete daring to actually answer questions honestly and not through his P.R. training — should be kept behind closed doors — that Jose Bautista should just shut up and play.

But you can’t deny that the Jays slugger speaks for a lot of people when he vents his frustrations the way he has lately, and I suspect that we got a little closer to the nut of what this is all about in a quote from him today, as passed along by the Toronto Star’s Richard Griffin:

OK, so maybe the comment isn’t entirely devoid of the P.R. filter, but his non-denial denial about thinking this way really tells us all we need. And as conflicted as we might be about the fact that he’s saying it, the fact that Bautista is the club’s best player, most marketable player, and a player with a immensely team-friendly contract, means that he can engage in this kind of talk and not have to worry about the consequences. He’s too valuable to the club and the company, and he knows it.

Or maybe he’s simply at the point where he doesn’t care if saying such things brings down petty consequences from an ownership dumbly willing to cut off its nose to spite its face, but I suspect there’s a deeper frustration at work as he says the things that Alex Anthopoulos, Paul Beeston, and essentially no other member of the organization (save the much quieter Edwin Encarnacion) can say for themselves without fear of burning bridges. Some fans and media will get bent out of shape about Jose being a prima donna and regurgitate a bunch of hockey jargon about leadership and whatever else the can find to spin a narrative that paints him in the light they want to paint him in, but I love it. At least somebody is saying it.

Rogers, of course, isn’t the only problem with this organization or the only reason they were left paralysed at the trade deadline. We all know that in the past two years Alex Anthopoulos has traded away many of the better chips not found on his club’s big league roster — crucial pieces when it comes making deadline moves, unless a club is able to take on lots of money without concern about it hampering them in the future *COUGH* — but that really only just exacerbated a problem that goes back as far as J.P Ricciardi’s terrible drafting. Ricciardi’s failures left the Jays upper minors bereft of talent, and AA’s immediate switch to focus on far-away high school players with big upsides has yet to close the gap.

If the aim was to build a pipeline and take the extreme long view, that all made sense, but somewhere along the line Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion got great, Rogers agreed to put up a tonne of money, and the equation for Anthopoulos changed. But then, almost as quickly as it had begun, the money stopped flowing and the Jays found themselves in a position where they could neither fill in gaps with cash, nor could they trade a Nicolino because they still had a Syndergaard and Sanchez, and then trade a Syndergaard because they still had a Stroman and Hutchison.

The young talent that was wanted by other clubs was needed by this one, not only for this year, but — and this is where Rogers really comes into it — because they are under team control for so long, and so cheaply, and the front office seems rightly terrified of giving away such valuable pieces when it has been so clearly demonstrated to them that “Can we please have just a little bit more investment here, just to make entirely certain that the whole thing doesn’t go down the tubes?” is an unreasonable question to ask.

Anthopoulos appears to have been left to his own devices this season — he’s been given a budget, and the Ervin Santana mess suggests that the onus was on him to get creative if he wanted to add salary (i.e. increases to payroll were non-negotiable) and that’s certainly how he’s operated throughout the year. I’d suggest that the shift seems odd from a GM who spoke so often in his first few years about preserving his flexibility, but it doesn’t seem odd at all when you look who resides upstairs.

Maybe Anthopoulos went wide-eyed into the dramatic payroll increase of November and Decemeber 2012 and thought the deals in front of him were too good to pass up, even if it meant destroying what was left of his flexibility both monetarily and with respect to his ability to make trades (though the latter might be a stretch, given that with Josh Johnson, Brandon Morrow, and the then-hope for a bounceback from Ricky Romero, he may simply have been overconfident in his starting depth). But it isn’t outlandish at all to think the other thing: that Rogers tied the hands of its own organization in a cynical attempt to save as many pennies as could be saved once it became clear that the much ballyhooed roster Anthopoulos had bought for himself wasn’t working out.

That doesn’t sound like an organization dedicated to winning to me, but is that really the way that it is?

I don’t have enough information to answer that question. Neither does Jose. And so why the fuck shouldn’t he say it?

Comments (147)

  1. Good.

  2. I don’t have enough information either buuuuuuut fuck Rogers anyways.

  3. Yeah, I can’t reallly fault Bautista at all for what he said, and I think you’re 100% spot on in your analysis of the situation.

    I think the team looks to be in a jam with the offseason approaching.

    The obvious solution to their problems – not being a good enough team and having little depth to trade from – is spending in free agency, but it doesn’t appear feasible (or likely) based on the past 12 months.

    • I dunno. I think they’re going to have a lot of pitching depth to trade from. I mean, I think the rapid promotion of some of their better prospects and their success at those levels would have to have substantially increased their value from where it was at tbe deadline. Stroman, Sanchez, Norris, Pompey, Castro, even Tellez. Pretty much all of their values has gone up quite a bit, you’d think, over the last month.

      • Not saying they don’t have intriguing prospects, but besides the top 100 guys (Sanchez, Norris, Pompey) who I doubt they wanna move, none of the other prospects will get you anything significant.

  4. If I had to guess, despite the negative press (which I don’t think they really care about), Rogers is THRILLED with this development, because now they have a good excuse to trade him .. And since you can’t really get equivalent MLB talent back, that pretty much means you have to trade EE, dump Reyes etc and rebuild. $60M payroll here we come!

    • If they go rebuild they can get back a shit tone of good prospects for Jose and ee

      • It’s the right thing to do as a baseball move. The team clearly isn’t good enough and there are too many holes to fill even if they were willing to spend. Way too much money locked up in guys producing little to nothing. But I don’t think rogers would be doing it as a baseball move, they’d be doing it strictly to save money.

        The proof will be in how much money they eat if/when they dump the negative value guys like Buehrle and Reyes. If they absorb a good chunk to get better prospects back, that’s very positive. If they go with the Rios approach and just dump the salaries, that will be pretty egregious and should get them smacked around by fans and media .. Though I’m not sure the fans especially will be looking for the fine details, they’ll just be focused on “they traded everyone!”

    • Stoeten nailed it with this: “I suspect there’s a deeper frustration at work as he says the things that Alex Anthopoulos, Paul Beeston, or essentially any other member of the organization (save the much quieter Edwin Encarnacion) cannot say for themselves….”

      Rogers sees the Blue Jays as an advertising opportunity, so they sure as hell don’t want to be getting negative publicity out of the whole deal, which Bautista is kind of doing right now. So good on him. He’s the only one who can put the kind of public pressure on ownership that’ll make them feel like they need to spend more money.

      • So I meant to say, Cynical, I don’t think Rogers is going to be too thrilled with all this. I hope not anyway. I hope this scares them a little.

        • Rogers doesn’t care about bad publicity surrounding the team’s budget, regardless of whether it comes from Jose Bautista or the bat boy. AA will say the right thing because it’s his job to say the right thing, and he’s proven very good at it, and will deflect any negative attention directed towards Rogers.

          As for what Cynical wrote above, I don’t see how a $60MM payroll is remotely possible. Anthopoulos has got to be on the final stretch of his time here if he can’t build a winner, and it would be pretty nasty for Rogers to instruct him to cut the payroll in half now, and then fire him next offseason, or even two or three years later. That’s the sort of thing that makes it tough to hire a President and a GM (see: Peter Angelos and the Baltimore Orioles’ search for a GM from a couple of years ago), and Rogers doesn’t want to have to deal with that.

          And frankly, if you’re trying to show the Rios waiver claim as an example of the team being cheap, you don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. That contract was a terrible one, and the Jays were right to get out from under it when they could.

          • I wasn’t trying to show anything in particular by bringing up Rios, other than that that’s an option for the Jays — put Buehrle or Reyes on waivers, and if anyone claims just let them go. Alternatively they could choose to eat some money and perhaps get a better return (at least one decent prospect, maybe, depending on how much salary they eat).

            Although it is worth noting that at the time, the white sox gave JPR some options for getting a prospect or two back, which would have required eating some of Rios’ contract, and the Jays said no. Getting a prospect back would have been better for the team and from a PR perspective, so even though dumping the contract made sense it’s still yet another example of rogers being cheap.

      • @mean mustard


        It looks like we are headed for another payroll parameters year in 2015.

        Jeff Blair &Mike Wilner were talking about Melky being gone in 2015 since the Jays would be outbid by other teams.

        Janssen will almost surely follow.

        Bautista is fed up, so he would be more amenable to a trade.

        Let the rebuild begin!.

        The new lie about Rogers letting AA have 10 million after the trade deadline is ridiculous.

        I dobt AA will be allowed to claim anyone. Now that they are out by 6 games, AA can say it wasn’t worth it.

        very frustrating to be a fan.

  5. This is gonna blow up…but what the fuck is he supposed to say?

  6. Great piece; agree all around. If I was Jose, right or wrong, I’d be tough not to spout off just a little. How many years will Boston and NY be so vulnerable?

  7. Seems to me like he’s just sick as fuck of losing. He was one of the guys willing to divert money from this year in order to sign Big Erv. It has to suck to know (or reasonably think) ownership is more or less indifferent to winning. Maybe at this point he’s not afraid to say whatever he wants because the consequences might just be getting traded to an organization with a clearer desire to win.

  8. If you’re Melky Cabrera right now – why would you ever want to resign with this team?

  9. I think this will be a very interesting off season.

  10. This team is fucked for the foreseeable future in my opinion.

    • The funny thing about that statement, is that I think the Jays are in the best shape they’ve been for years.

      • Q:
        What will it take for Rogers to actually spend?
        Years of awful attendance and declining tv numbers?

        Cause I’m afraid the team would move to Portland

        • They’re 10th in payroll.

          • That’s not something to brag about. A lot of that money is going to Romero and Morrow or 20 million each for 2-3 WAR guys that we had cheap options for (Alvarez and Escobar match up nicely against Buehrle and Reyes and leave the flexibility in place). The team got assrammed? Heads need to roll.

          • Big fucking deal.

            They may be # 10 in payroll this year, but every indication is that next year they will resume being in the bottom 50%.

            All this in the third largest market in baseball and from a team that controls the largest broadcast territory.

            If run properly they should constantly be in the top 5 payroll wise.

    • No bats in the lineup, no up and coming pitching, no 100mil payroll

      Yup, looks fucked.

  11. Just like Delgado and Halladay before him, it seems this organization is about to run another of its best players out of town. At least Bautista’s exposing a few uncomfortable truths and taking a few shots at the establishment on the way out.

  12. @2cops1drunk: With jays fans its always the realists vs the supposed upscale knowledgable die hards. Mediocre for 21 years.

  13. Rogers screwed over AA this year by not letting him make any medium-big payroll additions. No way Goins/izturis should have been the 2nd baseman, and another starter would have been nice.

    I think AA is a decent GM, it looks like the SP will be like the Rays and each year having a new good arm coming up.

    Also if the players are gonna bitch about not making improvements at the deadline you better deliver results.

    • When AA gets fired it would be something for him to spill the beans on cheap Rogers

      • They’re 10th in payroll.

        • So what? The team had clear needs and Rogers refused to give AA the money to fill them. Then there is a meeting with the team and Rogers tells the players that if they’re in contention at the trade deadline, the money will be there. Guess what? They lied since MLB executives said that the Jays could not take on any additional salary. Fuck Rogers. The Jays are just cheap content and nothing else.

          • They’re a business. Not a charity. Personally, I believe Anthoupolis didn’t like any of the deals that were available.

            • Personally, I think you’re a cunt who works for Rogers.

              • The funny thing is, as a company, I fucking hate Rogers, and Bell, and our fucking banks. But I do think Rogers has given enough money to field a good baseball team. In this regard, they’re being fair.

                • And for the record, you’re the one whining like an wntitled little bitch right now. Not me. So if you’re gonna call someone a cunt…..

                • Then why did they lie to the players that the money will be there if they’re in contention at the deadline?

                • Is Pete the biggest kool-aid slugging clown ever to grace this board? Holy fuck dude get Rogers cock out of your mouth.

                • Yup. AA fucked it up. Rogers gave him the money, he blew it on the Miami trade and it blew up in his face. Now JB wants out, Reyes and Burhele are due huge raises and the window is closed.
                  Hindsight is 20/20 but you take your shot and miss, you get out of the way for the next guy.

                  • AA didn’t fuck it up. He had horrible luck as far as: Bonnifacio, Izturis, Reyes injured within a week, Lawrie keeps getting different injuries, Morrow same, now EE and Lind, Josh Johnson was worse than Josh Towers (who the hell could have predicted that) and Dickey we knew would not always win Cy Young’s but he has been way more human than most expected.

                    Morrow and Izturis, healthy and producing may be all that we would have needed to be in a WC spot right now and get a little more funds.

                    Nothing is on any ONE person. If a regular gets hurt you want a bench player to step in. If he gets hurt you want a minor leaguer to step in. If injuries derail a team that was 10th in payroll and 1st in Vegas, then you want the ownership to step in.

              • HA! Pete you cunt!!! fuckin blew jays

            • Yes , a very poorly run business.

          • @King

            That’s the problem. They lied to the players twice this year. No money for Santana & no money at the trade deadline.

        • @pete, so what? Payroll is just one dimension. And tenth is about the best position we had hope for a week ago and all it would have meant is one definite playoff game.

          I’d rather be 4th in payroll for a few years and win and then return to 18th in payroll for a few years while rebuilding.

      • I kinda feel sorry for him when he has gets interviewed, cause it’s not like he is gonna throw Rogers under the bus.

    • Izturis would have been a fine 2B if he hadn’t gotten hurt 5 minutes into the season. Goins…not so much.

  14. I’m glad he’s bringing up these issues in the media. The baseball world needs to see that Rogers isn’t doing this franchise any favours. If anything, it might prevent corporate ownership in sports in general.

  15. Corporate ownership never works in sports
    Come on Rogers sell the team

    • The problem is likely more that Rogers is a cable company and the Jays are just cheap content. The TV deal this team could get on an open market would be something else since the entire country is pretty much their market. At least Interbrew had the decency to say they were bean counters.

  16. First Lieweke wanting out and now Bautista, got to love how Toronto sports teams shit on anything that is good in the past 15 years

    • Nope
      Lieweke was a fucking blowhard

      • Then you are a fucking idiot. He was the best thing to happen to Toronto sports teams

        • Again nope
          He declared all three mlse teams fixed! Really?
          The raptors had a excellent year in a shitty conference and lost to the old nets in round 1 (by one shot)
          TFC was a joke before but is just a fringe playoff team now
          He planed parade routes for the leafs who came off a tough first round loss. The leafs were a bad team year and only after their predictable collapse due to their shots against being way too high on a nightly basis
          Only after that did they fire dumb idiots and hire smart analytics people like aa should do

  17. Whether true or not, the legitimate questions about Rogers’ seriousness about winning, in and of themselves, are doing damage to this team’s brand vis-a-vis the fans and players.

    Somehow this organization has managed to squander the massive amount of goodwill among fans that was engendered by last year’s moves.

  18. Sure. Why not say something?

    After all, what are they going to do, cut his salary to below market and trade him to a non contender?

  19. Nothing is fucked here, Dude

  20. 100 per cent behind Jose on this one. nice analysis, Stoeten.

  21. Reminds me of the early 80′s when we were just waiting (hoping?) for Harold Ballard to die. If only there was a George Steinbrenneresqe owner waiting to buy this team. Until then, keep on supporting mediocrity.

    • Again have people protest Rogers by not showing up to games/not attending them

      Though the team could relocate in 10 years

    • Big Stein had his moments in the 80′s with the Yankees. He changed his ways after being kicked out of the game from the Dave Winfield incident.

      As for Rogers selling? Not going to happen in the near future

      • Only way I see it happening is if they go for a rebuild and attendance is rays like in 15k a night. That plus declining tv numbers too.

    • King George is/was a convict and never should have been allowed back into mlb. He isn’t some crazy spender, he just has unlimited funds with mlb set up to support big markets and a huge payroll divide. That team was set before he got back due to his pos pal Bud Selig. He had little to do with their rings, outside of making a fortune and buying anything he could. Easy to throw caution to the wind when u shouldn’t even be there in the first place.

  22. It’s so easy to make things sound provocate on twitter.

  23. I have no love for Rogers but a tonne of money has been thrown at this club, more than most of the teams it’s now chasing for the wild card. In the last two months,this team has given no indication that a trade or two would make a difference. (And don’t tell me they needed an energy injection at the trade date. Tampa is kicking ass after trading their Ace).

    No the Jays aren’t losing because of Rogers. They’re losing because they’re playing like shit.

    • Absolutely right on every point.

    • They are losing because they weren’t good enough to begin with and sustain the hot play early on in the year. There is a good reason why almost everyone picked the Blue Jays to be a last place team going into this year.

    • The Rays also have a great coach and have rallied before…this team, not so much.

      So as stoets says, there’s that. Yet tell me again how great gibby is for this team to fail again and again.

      • You must be new here. Nobody is to blame for the Jays not showing 1 fucking ounce of want to. It’s just that baseball is hard man, and like; randomness, wrc+! and garbage trolls. Wins don’t matter, it’s early and there’s that.

        • Thank you….for every sarcastic perfectly true word. Rogers gave the money, maybe they didn’t keep the taps open as long as I would have liked but they added to payroll in a way that makes Tampa look like a dime store. The a jays didn’t show up. Either AA pays..as he put this team together and hired the manager, or the players deserve it. I want to see accountability for this abortion. No double talk. No “I didn’t like the value”…no “we should have added at the deadline”. We are here, we fucking blew a really good chance to win….so dump the people responsible and move on. Shocked if a Dickey and Buehrle are not waived at by Aug 30.

  24. >> “But it isn’t outlandish at all to think the other thing: that Rogers tied the hands of its own organization in a cynical attempt to save as many pennies as could be saved once it became clear that the much ballyhooed roster Anthopoulos had bought for himself wasn’t working out.”

    Seriously Stoeten? You were torching people who expressed this view less than two weeks ago. I remember you telling one commenter he “didn’t know what the fuck” he was talking about.

    • /your argument as a strawman.jpg

    • congratulations, champ. had they won 8 out of the last ten you’d probably be less smug.

      maybe you can help me: why does seemingly everyone in this stupid fanbase want so bad to be the first to ‘know’ that the team is doomed? why when i go down to the damn park does no one cheer when the team is down until the tying run is in scoring position?

      ffs, as much as i hate rogers, the army of chicken littles is just about as bad…maybe worse.

      • Agreed.

        It is easiest to predict that one’s team will fail: should you be proven right, you may claim the highest prognosticator’s award. If you’re wrong, you can jump on the bandwagon and no one will be the wiser.

      • It’s not that we want to, it’s that smug suckers like you prop up this bullshit operation with your polyanna stupidity and were trying to speak some truth to power.
        But you dolts just lap up the fucking coolaid and make it possible for Rogers to keep recycling the same fucking program over and fucking over again for the past 20 goddamned years for fucks sake, fuck.

        • Maybe the clown who is pretending he can see “want” through his TV should think twice before lecturing other people about how to use their brains.

          By the way, no, I didn’t at all say what you’re trying to suggest I did, but considering the bent of all your ridiculous comments on here, I’m not surprised you choose to read things to fit the view you’ve already decided you want, rather than actually trying to comprehend what you’re reading.

          • Absolutely you can see ‘want’ through the tv. You see it when Reyes doesn’t dive, when he gets caught daydreaming and runs the jays out of an inning, when pitchers are used as pinch hitters, sluggers getting tossed for arguing pitches, leaving armies of runners on base, losing to shitty teams when you need to win.
            The proof is in the losing, shit ain’t that random and there’s a reason why the Jays folded like a cheap suit post break. I choose to call that reason ‘want’. Sue me.

      • soupman you nailed it

    • Dare i say it, why such a garbage clown heal turn stoets? Oh wait, it’s ok NOW? Ok, sure thing.

    • @switchboard.

      At the trade deadline, the jays had the wildcard spot locked up & were only 1.5 games behind first.

      Rogers probably thought they could get away with not allowing any improvements to the team that cost money

  25. PS- note to the 2/3rd’s of teams with budgets lower than the Jays (all of which save KC have been in the playoffs more recently):

    Should you choose to increase your salary budget by 50% like the Jays, do not spend it all at the beginning of a season when you have 162 games to play. Hold back some for a year and a half so you can buy some goodwil from the fans with 60 games left to go at the trade deadline. I know it makes no business sense, but hey keeping fans happy is all that counts. And remember, most canadians and americans have no clue how to balance their own household accounts, so don’t expect the concept of a budget will mean anything to them.

  26. Whether or not AA is committed to winning or not is irrelevant. Rogers isn’t. The Jays were in a wildcard spot at the deadline. If they don’t make the playoffs this year, it’s because Rogers to was too cheap to let AA look for that last piece to help out. It’s all on them… and eventually Jose wins, I just don’t think it’s going to be with us the way Rogers and AA are handling things.

  27. I agree with Bautista and Jansen (and, presumably, the rest of the locker room): they should have made a move towards the deadline to make the team better and to show an ostensible push for the playoffs to the fans and to the players.

    I agree that Bautista and Jansen should have vocalized their displeasure, as I think they have the soapbox to do so, and can’t see negative repercussions for doing so.

    I disagree with the notion that it shows poor leadership: if Ryan Goins (and the rest of the end-of-the-benchers that Bautista supposedly let down) has his feelings hurt by Jose Bautista when the latter implies that they could be a stronger team, then the former is both an egomaniac who overvalues his own contribution to the team, and is incredibly insecure – professional baseball players ought to know how close they are to disappearing into obscurity (http://bit.ly/1qdxeZt), and don’t need anyone else to tell it to them.

    I also agree with Anthopoulos: I didn’t see any trades made at the deadline that push this team into the next tier of talent, or else any players who were indeed ‘difference makers’ and were moved at the deadline were far too costly for the Jays to acquire, given where their farm systems are relative to those of their competitors.

    I agree with the bean counters at Rogers who haven’t seen the big investment they made translate into wins on the field and are reluctant to open the purse strings and throw good money after bad.

    But I agree with fans who think that a little more money spent by the team would make a difference and would make them compete; I recently cancelled my internet with Rogers and told the rep that it was, in part, because of financial decisions by the baseball operations division.

    The problem with my viewpoint is that it makes it tough for me to blame anyone for the frustration that I feel that the team just can’t win more. It’s a shitty situation that looks unlikely to improve over the next six months, but I can’t point my finger at anyone for it. AA took a risk that I’m glad he took by going for the Marlins and Mets deals. It backfired. These are the consequences, and I am unhappy to be living in them.

    But I’m still a fan of this team, and Jose Bautista is still the best member of that team.

  28. Brat written thing I read today.

  29. Of course rogers is a terrible owner. Why is that a revelation all of a sudden?? Jbats has a right to be damn pissed. Im saying this right now: As long as rogers or ANY corporation (MLSE etc) is the owner of this team, they will never win anything. The team needs to be sold to an individual or a group dedicated to bulding a winner and spending what it takes. I know rogers needs jays for its “content” but what they have done already this season is good enough for them or else they would have allowed more $ to be spent. They look for profits and shareholders first and foremost, not the fans.

    • @afdg

      Rogers might be happy with their beginning of year investment but it was clear that they needed help at the deadline. They needed an infielder & a starting pitcher to give stroman & hutch a rest. Those two have not pitched well since the all star break. Next year , the rest of the al could rebuild & the jays will be stuck fighting for fourth place

  30. #thismotherfuckingteam

  31. So many thoughts on this. Such a shitty touchscreen on my shitty blackberry to share.

    Winfield mostly nailed it above about how i feel too. Kind of dumbfounded, really. But fuck, all in all, this season has been fucking fun as a fan. To me, any way.

    Fullmer also nails it, Delgado and Halladay, yada yada.

    I dont disagree with Bautista. Say it man.

    I just hope he doesnt ask for a departure. Although likely imminent now.

  32. They may be 10th in payroll in the league… but they’re only 6th in the AL, in a league where only the top 5 teams make the playoffs… and the second wild-card spot doesn’t really count.

  33. If Bautista asks to leave, would that be considered a betrayal by his latin clique? How would Edwing and Reyes take it?

    • I’m sure if he feels that way then they do too. And if they deal Bautista they really need to deal EE as well, and do whatever is required to dump Reyes. Likely they’re thinking he did them a huge favour, because none of them want to be here, and you can’t really blame them with the turf, shitty ownership and team going nowhere.

  34. Bisons lost tonight. Mills was pitching.

    Tomorrow is last home game for them and they need a win to tie the Sox for the wildcard. Norris will be pitching.

  35. I think there is plenty of blame to go around. The jays must be c 5 to 10 in the league in revenue and are c 10 in payroll. Not a crazy discrepancy.

    Paying Reyes 20m/ season in decline phase. Romero, Morrow 18m and Buehrle 18m were all AA decisions.

    All had significant red flags and some came at prospect cost as well. Take out the 50m owed Buerle, Reyes and Dickey next year and take back the prospects and things look a lot more promising this offseason.

    It was the wrong move to pay superstar prospects (synd, d’arnaud, marisnick) for these guys and that’s on AA

    • Well… do all that and their middle infield is Escobar (-0.1 WAR) and nobody, and their catcher has an OBP of below .295 (in both halves of the season — and .309 since his recall on June 24). They don’t sign Melky, and they’re potentially looking at a rotation with four guys who started the season at Double-A or below. Sure, they’d have more money, but it’s still not an ideal roster in the near term, or in the intervening two seasons. Wouldn’t you probably be thinking even more about trading Bautista and EE in that scenario? The timeline for success doesn’t change much from where it’s currently at and you miss out on these last two years, in which they could have had a lot more success if things had broken more favourably for them.

      I don’t know… obviously the last two years haven’t worked out ideally (to put it kindly), but I don’t agree that it’s so bleak or it was so wrong — or that those are “superstar prospects,” necessarily.

      • Agree – but I think we can talk about at the time prospect value of Synd and D’Arn being star level and the risks of the Florida deal were the volume of guys that could work out.

        Synd star has risen – D’arnaud has fallen and it’s a wash

        I just think they were very high risk moves at the time given the backloaded salaries – there was very little wiggle room there

        And given the jays injury problems, Reyes seemed a huge gamble.

        I think choosing 50m to spend on those 3 guys – maybe not the right guys – and there have been other options, including the guys in the intt’l market…

  36. [Dumb]

  37. Here’s my problem with the whole “Rogers threw a ton of money at this team. We are 10th in payroll” stance.

    Both of these statements are true. But in context to Andrew’s column and Bautista’s comments (specifically that). The year that they did decide to drop that money was last year. As I understand every team in baseball received 25 million extra dollars from the new TV deal. So by my in accurate / quick math Rogers really only threw an extra 10-15 million into payroll (when adding in the additional 25 million). So when considering the financial resources that they have and the market they can tap I to. Boosting payroll (last year) by 10-15 of their actual money and 25 million of an MLB negotiated bonus pool of cash for each team, implies they really could give a flying fuck less about wins and losses (not that this was really in question), and really Alex went for a collection of the wrong horses all around.

    • I don’t think it’s so simple to equate the increased payroll and the degree of giving flying fucks about things. The assumption, from a business point of view, is that you are prioritizing profitability — so if you assume the 25 million increase goes entirely to the roster salaries then that is awfully gracious considering none of it goes anywhere else in the organization and no profit is seen from it for the owners or investors. How many teams boosted payrolls by 25 million, let alone an additional 10-15 when that happened? Seems to me if Rogers doesn’t give a flying fuck, then an awful lot of ownership groups are well below them on that score — if that’s how we use payroll to figure it out.

      I’m not saying I like Rogers, or that it’s clear they did anything right/wrong (I don’t have enough information) — I just think people come up with explanations when they are upset where 1+anything = 2, just so they can say so.

      At the very least, doesn’t it seem weird that so many people on the outside have so much more evidence than Jose Bautista does that Rogers doesn’t want to win?

  38. What is really sad is – Bautista & EE became stars out of nowhere (Vegas would have given great odds against when Blue Jays acquired them) & are on extremely team friendly deals, but we still don’t have enough to make one playoff game and don’t have any flexibility in the payroll…

    • The first part of the last paragraph is what seems to most likely be happening. Ownership did commit to winning in 2012 (& 2005) and the players that the team assembled haven’t won. Hopefully the team hasnt missed the boat and can win next year or failing that jump ship, trade the vets to supplement the young pitching core into the future and assemble a collection of players that do win in a few years when/if ownership commits to winning again

  39. That was a clutch post Stoeten. You really nailed it. When an important issue is at hand it’s nice to know we can count on you for some wonderful writing-unlike when things are mundane and you just decide to mail in a post. I still think you’re a professional blogger.
    I realize it’s human nature to not be at your best for every at-bat, sorry I meant for every post! Have you ever felt adrenaline coursing through your veins-some people flourish then.
    Some “fight” some “take flight.”

  40. this organization has been spinning its wheels for close to 2 seasons now without any significant additions. Even Navarro was a bargain-basement signing using money that was already going to be spent on JPA anyways.

    Trying to add major league talent in the short term without any ability to take on salary is near impossible, and so AA has been stuck mining the waiver wire for guys like Francisco and Reimold hoping for diamonds in the rough.

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