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Uggggggggghhhh…

Comments (300)

  1. I wish Frank Francisco were still around to serve up that HR to Napoli. Just to highlight that for every really good move current management has made, they’ve made an equally boneheaded one and that’s why this team is in the exact same place they were five years ago.

    Fuck everything.

    • Idiot.

    • Super base but:

      2011 Napoli WAR = 5.4
      2011 Blue Jays without Napoli = 81 – 81 (4th place)
      2011 Blue Jays with 2011 Napoli = 87 – 75 (ie still not making the playoffs, still prob in 4th place, I even rounded up)

      2012 Napoli WAR = 1.8
      2012 Blue Jays without Napoli = 73 -89 (4th Place)
      2012 Blue Jays with 2012 Napoli 75 -87 (definitely still in 4th place)

      100% chance 2012 Napoli does not sign a contract extension to stay in Toronto (blame Rogers for that).

      • You dont know how WAR works. Clearly.

      • WAR=useless stat

        • WAR = something you don’t understand and therefore choose to declare it useless.

          • @ IMW
            And it’s not as valuable nor accurate nor practical as some would make it seem.
            It’s for fantasy league debates.
            As shown above,it’s misused constantly.

            • I’ll admit that it is misused and misunderstood. But I certainly don’t agree that it’s only value is in fantasy baseball.

              • In a recent informal survey,2/3 of players asked didn’t know what the letters WAR stood for.Of the 1/3 who did know of the stat,less than half knew what their own WAR rating was.
                If the players and FO evaluators don’t regard WAR as a major evaluation statistic,why should the rest of us?
                I have a feeling that not a lot of people have analyzed the formula used to determine WAR value ( either the BR or FG type).But my cynical side questions the validity when it uses UZR/150 to measure the defensive component .Some players see wide swings in their value based upon this alone
                Until something better comes along,I’ll live with it but take the results with a grain of salt.

                • You mention a player poll but then include FO evaluators in your list of people who disregard WAR….

                  Also, I’m not saying WAR is perfect, nor is it even the best tool out there for decision making. But it does serve some purpose. Fangraphs recently had a piece on Alex Gordon and mention that you can’t just use WAR to create some kind of definitive rankings, but that it certainly helps you to quickly group players and/or identify certain facts (like when someone is having a fantastic season)

                  “WAR is context, league, and park neutral. This means you can use WAR to compare players between years, leagues, and teams” – Fangraphs

                  It’s a tool for making comparisons and starting a conversation. I don’t think you should use it at the exclusion of all other data.

                  Grain of Salt. Sure no problem with that. Outright dismissal. Nope, I don’t accept that.

                  • I have yet to hear any GM mention WAR value in describing a player’s worth.
                    Maybe it’s happened ( Billy Beane?) but I don’t remember it happening.

                    “Player X has had a down year but we expect him to rebound because he’s shown consistant WAR value over the previous 4 years” isn’t a quote i’ve read anywhere.

                    UZR needs a 3 year sample size to be accurate, according to most sabermetricians.Yet UZR/150 is used to calculate yearly WAR values.UZR/150 extrapolates from a smaller sample size to arrive at it’s number.

                    Again, we’ll agree to respectfully disagree.

                    • Can we disrespectfully disagree instead? It seems more fun.

                      …. Poopy-face….

                    • I’m sure most teams have their own WAR type stat with much more advanced information that we have available to us.

                      Here’s a link that shows the correlation of WAR and team wins over a 30 year period:

                      http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/9/18/1035183/team-war-vs-actual-wins

                      Keep in mind this is from 5 years ago and there have been a ton of advancements in player evaluation since then. Obviously some things can’t be quantified (luck, random variance, run distribution, etc.) but just because a stat isn’t perfect doesn’t mean we should discount it entirely. It’s a remarkably accurate stat when it comes to evaluating what happened on the field. It’s not meant to predict what WILL happen in the future.

                    • @ IMW

                      poopy-face?
                      Now that hurts.

                    • The truth hurts…. poopyface.

                • There was a time when most players couldn’t tell you their on base %. Most probably still don’t know their own slugging % or how to figure it out, or why. Doesn’t mean they’re stupid stats.

                  There was a time slavery was accepted as a good idea. Games and how we analyze them evolve like anything else; adapt or fall behind.

          • @IMW, the only stat I care about is wins and number of championships

            • and since that’s all you care about then anyone who’s interested in digging deeper and trying to answer the whys and hows of baseball is…. wrong?

  2. Tough to keep the faith in moments like this.

  3. Ouch,this one got ugly.

  4. There was a bright spot though!!!!! Steve t with the strikeout and then a hit.

  5. Jays dropped to .500 for the first time since May 15.

  6. So, thinking about next year, since this season is over, I think these here are the two most important questions:

    1) Who gets knocked out of the rotation to let Norris in? Four starters are already under team control for next season, with a $6.7 million on Happ looking like an obvious pickup, and a $10 million option on Morrow looking like a possible decline. If you pick up Happ’s option, you have six starters next season, including Happ.

    Of course, there wasn’t space for Stroman at the start of this season, and Stroman eventually got in because of Morrow’s injury. So maybe you keep all six.

    2) Who gets knocked out of the outfield to let Pompey in?

    What it really comes down to is, which one out of Rasmus or Melky would you keep? Or do you let both go, throw Pompey in LF, and platoon Gose and Pillar in CF?

    Dumping both and going with the platoon would make sense if you were planning on using the money to shore up some other part of the club. But what other part of the club needs shoring up? We’ve already discussed how the rotation is full; the only obvious gap on the club is 2B, and there isn’t any obvious 2B candidate on the free agent market–We already did Bonifacio once, we already did Kelly Johnson once, and Stephen Drew has been worth negative WAR this season.

    Catcher? Navarro has been okay this season, but pitch framing-wise he’s left quite a bit to be desired; it’s possible our pitchers don’t look so bad with a better framer behind the plate. But then Navarro is under contract for $5 mil next season, so any upgrade there would mean finding a taker for him. And speaking of upgrades, we’d be pretty much talking about Russell Martin, and that’s about it.

    In other words, would you rather have Gose/Pillar + Martin, or would you rather have Melky + Navarro? I’d hate to see Navarro pitch framing for another season, but I think the second option is the better one.

    • Norris and Pompey should be in Buffalo next year developing and getting better.

      • At least to start. We’re not going to be able to keep both Colby and Melky (and really… would we even want to keep Colby?) So if (major if) we can keep Melky then the outfield would likely be Melky, Gose/Pillar Platoon, and Bautista… if Pompey keeps hitting at AAA then I could see a call-up once the super-two deadline passes making him the everyday guy and Gose the back-up.

        Norris is a more difficult projection… Super-two plus injury or super-two-bullpen would be my guess.

    • Nobody. Someone will play their way out or be dealt.

    • You also need to fix 3B and DH – the current players spend far too much time on the DL every year.

      And you possible need to deal with Reyes, who is hitting nicely but his defense is becoming a problem, particularly given his significant pay increase next season. As a DH he would be very nice, but I don’t think he would be willing.

      • Just this past season we were wondering if Bautista was injury prone, after missing significant time the past two seasons. Instead, we’re getting a full season of Bautista, and Jose’s best season since 2011, assuming nothing happens between now and the end of the season.

    • Yeah, I’m going to say that Norris and Pompeii should be left down in AAA this year, and that next year’s rotation looks like Dickey / Buehrle and three question marks.

      Spring Training always features a competition for starting pitching, so I see Morrow / Hutchison / Happ / Stromann / Drabek / Redmond / Jenkins / Mills / Sanchez all fighting it out for the last three rotation spots, with the best three performers getting it, the #4 and #5 spots getting the long relief roles, and the 6/7/8 spots getting AAA starting roles or another relief role if longevity is the issue. I don’t see Sanchez in the bullpen next year unless required as he is a starter and see him tuning up in AAA as a mid-season replacement. Morrow will probably be gone.

      Pompeii also gets the start in AAA next year. Expect to see Gose / Pillar as the FT CFs with Rasmus and / or Cabrera gone. If Cabrera goes then I would expect to see an off-season acquisition.

  7. Jenkins recalled.

  8. Stoeten,

    The Story of the Boggs Head’ article is right fucked. I went for a read for old times sakes, and found all the links broken and comments section bombarded by spam bots. Its a real shame.

    Just thought you should know, you may want to fix or unpublish.

  9. The Jays were a season best 38-24 after 62 games. They are now 66-66, which not only means they are a .500 team, but over the last 70 games they’ve been as bad as they were good. Seattle currently holds the second wild card and they are on a pace to win 91 games. The Blue jays would have to go 25-5 over the last 30 games to equal them. This winter will be very interesting as sitting by and doing nothing is clearly not the solution. AA might keep his job, but he clearly is going to have to show better organizational progress if he is to be in Toronto long term.

  10. Still been a damn good year, though.

    I think Wilner raised a great point.. Everything that can go wrong, already has. Variation alone has the Jays trending way up in every luck-based category, so expect an absolute tear. It’s gonna be a wild ride.

    I actually thought in every respect the Jays looked good tonight. Sometimes a minor thing doesn’t go your way and you lose. It happens.

    #sports

    • Thing is, though, wilner is an idiot

    • When you say “every respect” did you include pitching? And fielding? Hitting and base running?

    • Meh, a lot went right too. It was the combination of going into the season with glaring holes and not being able to offset the few things (namely Lawrie, Rasmus bullpen) that went wrong.

    • Saying all that, if relying on luck becomes a greater portion of your success formula, you are screwed.

      The BJ’s have to position themselves for success through player development and informed player acquisition.

      Luck is often a byproduct of good organizational structure and positioning….in other words, you can increase the chances of the team being “lucky” by creating the conditions for that to happen, more so then just happenstance.

    • That’s not how luck or variation works.

  11. On an up note The Jays didn’t trade Norris for 3 months of Andrew Miller.

  12. Idiots on the fan now gibbons has to go
    Fuck you hacks

    • Right, because Gibbons is such a blue-chip, established major league manager thus always deserving the benefit of the doubt….The team has not come close to meeting expectations for two years so the notion of replacing the manager isn’t exactly insane.

      • While not insane, it is kind of pointless. Would you rather the GM focuses his off season on roster contraction, or on replacing a position wih little to no affect on most wins and losses? If he’s not awful and costing games (he’s not) then replacing hi,misnamed set of time and resources imo

        • *roster construction. Fucking auto-correct

        • I think good managing over 162 games is worth more than you’re giving it credit for. Gibbons may not be losing games on his own; however, the team has struggled to play consistent, fundamentally sound baseball for nearly two seasons. I am tired of watching the organization award mediocrity and then claim to be competing with Boston and New York. Would Gibbons be retained if his teams performed like this (for consecutive seasons) in the aforementioned markets? The answer is no.

          • As usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle. John Farrell’s magic wand couldn’t make us competitive, but his pixie dust won the sox a series. Then it wore off I guess this year. My point is/was more that I’d much rather have the FO focus on the roster and improving the guys on the field than wasting time and resources on a mostly negligible position.

          • You’re seriously pining for Bobby Fucking Valentine to manage the Jays?

  13. 14 years I remember being a jays fan
    I don’t know when it will get better. And for those who say suck it up I’ve been a fan for 30+ years boo hoo, you’ve seen the team play in the playoffs, I haven’t

    • I am sorry to hear you have never seen this team in a playoff series. Those were amazing years (85, 89, 91, 92, 93)

      Now we have excuses

    • I’ve been a fan for 16 years, since ’99.

      Thought I’d finally received the chance to watch playoff ball this year.

      Hurts, not going to lie.

  14. 6-15 for the month of August. Holy fuck.

    This is more than the team being disheartened about management not adding pieces. This is about every flaw in the roster construction for the Jays popping loose at the seams at the same time.

    They’re certainly still giving effort. You can see they want it. They wouldn’t be coming back to force extra innings if they weren’t. They’re getting a lot of guys on. I don’t know what the stats are, but fuck me it seems like they’re just missing the big hit, the big inning.

    The guy I’ve feel most sorry for is Janssen. He’s been so solid and such a good soldier, and in the home stretch towards his last chance to cash in as a major leaguer he’s driving into the ditch. I know last night was mostly down to fielding, but the way the numbers are trending he’s costing himself millions.

    • Well someone has to be held accountable and aa should be

      • My god what is AA gonna do, trade for Lester or price? fat good thats done for detroit/A’s

        • 2013 was a total shitshow. There were huge holes in the roster that have been known since last year that weren’t filled. It’s not just about what was done just before the trade deadline.

          That the rotation and middle infield needed upgrading is not news. AA is accountable for the roster as constructed.

      • Why the fug is AA being held responsible in your books?
        Because Player A didn’t hit? Because Player B booted a ball?
        They needed some backup infielders – he got guys like Kawasaki and Valencia and Tolleson….who, despite everything, ARE MLB players. They cost shit, and the Jays didn’t give up anything. They needed some power – he got Francisco…who in the early going was hot shit and AA looked like a genius.
        What he couldn’t do was prevent Lawrie, EE and Lind going on the DL for over a month at the same time. What he couldn’t do was prevent was the cycle of hot-bats, cold pitching (and vice versa)..from repeating. What he couldn’t do was magically repopulate the farm system with MLB-quality players, capable of filling in at the big-league level for extended periods. He couldn’t magically sprinkle age and experience dust over all of his draft picks, who are just starting to make their AAA mark this season.
        Gibbons has been given the task of making chicken Kiev – when all he’s had for ingredients this season has been chicken shit.

        • And he hasn’t – despite the urgent bleatings of the fan-base – gone out and sold off all the young assets for some rent-a-player, He hasn’t gone out and handcuffed the team with yet ANOTHER long-term, back-loaded contract.
          Sure, there are the usual calls to break up the Jays and sell off Bautista or EE or Lawrie, etc….but who is there to fill their shoes? Yup, let’s let Muni hit cleanup. Or keep Francisco at third.
          That’s an even quicker way to circle the drain.

          • Who I feel should be held accountable is Rogers. To increase payroll to an acceptable level (after running the team as small market for over a decade) and then nickle and diming when the Jays were on the cusp is an enormous pisser. Every insider heard that the Jays were saying they couldn’t take on payroll at the deadline. That’s on ownership.

            AA isn’t without blame, but I still think his good outweighs his bad – plus I think he deserves two more years to see if his draft classes (way better than the disasters under JPR that we’re still paying for) pan out. If they don’t, and the Jays don’t improve, then you make the cut with full information.

          • Yup. And that why he should be fired.
            For all the things he couldn’t, wouldn’t and didn’t do. Getting a proven bat, a 2b, a starter, bench depth, whatever.
            For all the things he did do, acquiring an injury prone SS with a horribly back loaded contract, a mid-rotation starter with a horrible back loaded contract, trading decent pieces for garbage relievers, failing to sign 1st round draft picks…
            At what point do you decide that his lack of success equates to failure?
            I think 5 years is a fucking long time to tread water.

            • Considering it takes more than 5 years to see whether a draft class has paid off, I do think AA deserves a couple more years to see if the talent he’s accumulated – and according to the prospect blogs, he’s done well – is the real deal. Seeing how the cupboard was very thin when he took over, and his mandate was to draft, I think that’s only fair.

              I mean, if we fire him, who do we replace him with? And can we expect a new GM to be able to do anything different other than long term development if, as it keeps getting clearer, that Rogers is gonna hogtie anyone in that chair with bean counter bullshit?

              • Exactly. Sanchez was AA’s first draft pick, just came up, and was youngest in the majors at the time. It’s too often forgotten baseball team-building is an extremely long term project if you’re building the farm from scratch and need that farm to supplement the major league roster.

            • The unsigned picks complaint is the dumbest argument I’ve ever heard. Would you rather have Beede and Bickford or Stroman and Pentecost? They lost nothing by not signing those picks.

              • yeah because you can totally be sure beede and bickford aren’t going to outperform stroman and pentecost. pass me your crystal ball pal, i want to short some stock

              • Whether you think it had an impact or not is irrelevant.
                They picked guys in the first because they wanted them (I presume) so, not signing them is failure.
                That’s my point really, there are so far, few or no successes with which I can justify keeping AA at the helm.

          • Nicely said.

        • If the goal here is to maintain a top 10 MLB salary and a slightly above average team, then yes, he’s done a successful job of that. .

          Relying on Morrow to provide a near full season in the rotation looked dumb at the time and still does in retrospect. x2 for Dustin McGowan. They needed a solid #1 or #2 guy. Hutch was not it coming off of surgery, either.

          Losing Santana to the Braves was a 3 ring circus and must have been hugely embarrassing for the organization.

          Chase Headley would have been a bet worth taking, IMO.

          The Rogers spin machine has been great at selling the whole David Price story as a smokescreen. There are surely many other smaller deals that could have been done outside of the AL East.

          Again, there were known weaknesses in the roster and only the one behind the plate was addressed. He’s not responsible for the team’s under performance but he is accountable for it.

          • I had decided not to comment on here because it is so hard to follow along, but your discourse is just too interesting to sit out.

            I think if what you feel you need to do is “pin” the disappointment of being 14 under over the last 70 games on one person, then AA is your guy. You can blame Rogers for not opening the purse strings further, but had they added McCarthy, who would have been bumped from the rotation? Lawrie was due back shortly after the deadline, so why add Headley?

            And pre-season, did you want them to open the purse strings for Infante, assuming Cano was out of the question? If you were in ownership’s position, after seeing the Marlins deal completely blow up, would you not say to the management that the team will have to prove itself worthy of further investment on the field?

            I agree that Anthopoulos has done about as well as anyone could under those circumstances to patch the holes that have come up. If his head must roll, it shouldn’t be based on the final record this year, it should be for the Marlins deal, which, if he’s smart, he’ll have to try to somewhat undo this offseason by moving Reyes and perhaps Buehrle too.

            The problem with firing Anthopoulos is the unknown alternative is quite likely going to make some bad mistakes. What I mean by that is, I am pretty sure Anthopoulos won’t deal any more of the bluer chip young capital he has accumulated, but I fear a new GM would be under orders to do whatever it takes to get the team closer in September 2015.

            I’d rather Anthopoulos get one more year to try to make this work.

            It’s easy to blame him, since he’s a single, concrete target. My own take is the biggest issue has been from the right arm side of the bullpen, with the injury to Janssen and injuries and/or complete ineffectiveness of Santos, Delabar, Wagner and Stilson. The offense, even with the meagre production from a few spots, has been good enough to carry an OK rotation.

            • @G-Man

              Moving Reyes and Buehrle isn’t something you do if there’s a chance that you can’t re-allocate the salary – Rogers may just claw it back.

              Plus, Buehrle would be hard to replace in the rotation and you could move Reyes to 2nd.

          • @okbj, maybe the goal is to thoughtfully and systematically improve the team and win some games in the post season. We’re in year two of a three year plan. Last year at this time we were 17.5 games back of the wild card and 23 back from first place. I’d say the team is improving and I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t expect them to improve next year, too.

  15. Interesting article on Fangraphs about Rasmus
    where they compare him to a variety of players
    including Granderson, CarGo, Saunders & Chris Young.
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/colby-rasmus-enigma/

    • I don’t see the Jays shelling out 2 dollars for Rasmus and I don’t think he wants them to.

      • *sniff* I’m going to miss that big dope.

        • Yeah, he was my favorite Jay; but he’s been really hard to watch this year.

          The other night when he bunted, stole second and had the “all bets are off” slide into home, there was a glimpse of what’s in there.

          Farewell chicken dog boy.

          • I will love Cletus until the day I die. Sad on a number of levels he’s made the Jays’ decision for them.

            • he could be back, no? or is it assumed he wants out / TO doesn’t want him?

              • Can’t see where he would fit. He ain’t a kid anymore, so the potential argument gets less compelling. Maybe on a really cheap deal, but if the Jays think they can get someone as good or better, he won’t be back no matter how much they might hope there’s still a superstar inside of him.

                Still was a good deal for AA, but I wish he could have been that guy.

  16. So glad my cable was out last night.

  17. Wilner is a crazy homer no doubt.

    But I’ll be honest, I am not clear how this team is faring this poorly. At face value they really do seem fairly solid.

    I have friends who are fans of the Orioles, Yankees and Red Sox, they all say to me on a somewhat regular basis, “the thing is, Toronto has a good team, why don’t they win?”. I just can’t answer them anymore.

    • After two years of saying that about the Jays, and about two years of saying the exact opposite about the Orioles… My conclusion is that I don’t know shit about how to win at baseball :)

    • It can be baffling when you see the top 5 hitters in this lineup and look at a lineup like the one the A’s have which has produced the most runs in baseball.

      Defense is a problem, feels like hitting with RISP is all the time too although the numbers might not back that up. There were certainly glaring holes that went unaddressed, but may not have been easily addressable. The young minor league depth was absent when needed with a few exceptions, and the older guys they find were available for a reason.

      I just hope they’ve learned from the past year and can do something about it. I’m not expecting anything, but who the hell knows?

      • Also, I don’t think an abundance of streaky hitters is what you want either. And offense cannot carry your team if that’s what your offense is made of. We hear pitching and defense all the time, but sell to ourselves that the offense can do that too. I’m not sure an offense can carry a team like pitching and defense can, especially a streaky one like we’ve seen.

        Also, we’ve seen with teams like KC, Baltimore, A’s, etc what a good bullpen can do.

        We could go on for days about this…

      • I would make an argument that outside the top 5 guys in the batting lineup, the team is garbage.

        SP should have been a priority last winter, and it still is. I wouldn’t be surprised if Anthopoulos was banking hard on Josh Johnson to not shit the bed from that trade.

      • They arent winning because the rotation is inconsistent, bullpen overused/inconsistent and not great defense. Also, not only is the offense not scoring runs with risp, the quality of ABs in the lineup is not there. Playoff teams are able to put up good ABs(foul off good pitches, advance runners). The guys in this lineup dont do that. Tons of guys strikeout in 3 pitches a lot and are just easy outs. Cant have that.

      • Absolutely AJ. It’s not just the top 5 batters, the bullpen had a bunch of recently successful arms and the rotation -while lacking a true ace- consisted of five guys who can be expected to keep their team close enough -honestly, I much prefer that over previous years of guaranteed win night with Halladay, followed by four consecutive days of praying for everything to break right (yes, I know this is an exaggeration)-

        This team is a phenomenal example of “the sum of the individual parts being worth well more than the team as a whole”. AA has options:
        1.) Assume that the luck has been bad and will eventually become even or good. In this case, try to bring everyone back with a few changes coming from promotion through the farm.
        2.) Assume that the team is just broken, and blow the whole thing up. Considering talent and contracts, phenomenal prospects could be picked up with trades of Bautista and EE, while Dickey would bring a nice return. If willing to eat salary Buehrle and Reyes could fetch some relatively nice pieces, and with all of the young controllable parts that would now be populating the team it would be easier for Rogers to accept eating the salaries to accommodate trades that provide good player value in return.

        3.) Reload on the fly: Every team is flawed, but it seems like the Jays have some very flawed players who hamstring the roster construction.
        -Keep Bautista and EE. These guys are once in a generation offensive talents, with great heads for the game, capable base running, and perfectly competent fielding.
        -Keep Hutch, Stroman, Happ (effective and cost efficient).
        -Keep Navarro since he’s under contract, hits well enough for a catcher, and even though he can’t frame or block pitches in the dirt to save his life, he seems to call a good game and the pitching staff likes throwing to him.

        -The next group of players are good to great in certain ways but are flawed in other ways that negatively impact the team:
        -Reyes: obviously his bat and base running are very valuable, but a shortstop must field better than this. My suspicion is that he has so many wonky muscles and ligaments in his body that he’s not ranging after balls at max effort to protect against injury. He cannot continue to play short unless the team provides players with ungodly range at 2nd, 3rd, LF and CF. The other option is to try him in another position which will wear less on his body. I think 3rd base, might be the best fit considering that when he’s not suffering through shoulder issues, his arm is a cannon. Giving him one or two games a week in the DH spot would also be great as it would save his body, resulting in -I think- much better defense when he does play short.

        -Brett Lawrie: His tools don’t do us any good on the DL. Cutting bait with him would get us someone less spectacular, but perhaps more valuable over the course of a full season. This would also allow Reyes to move to 3rd.

        -R.A. Dickey has really been solid lately. He’s a valuable member of any rotation, but his need for a personal catcher requires two roster spots. This would be fine for a team that had Yan Gomes starting, but we don’t. Navarro doesn’t have the stamina to play 4 of every 5 games, and Thole doesn’t do enough behind and at the plate to justify being with the team.

        -Mark Buehrle: Obviously, he is what he is, but if the Jays think they have enough young cost controlled arms, then he becomes expendable. Trading him to a team that would be willing to take on his contract (for very little in return) allows for a lot more economic flexibility and perhaps makes space in the budget for two useful players rather than just one.

        -Adam Lind: He’s dominant vs. righties, but he also requires an extra roster spot for his LHP hitting caddy. Moving Lind out, for a Kendry Morales who runs about as poorly but hits both sides could again increase flexibility. The other option is to keep claiming Steve Pearce until he finally agrees to come. If not him, then a great fielder and baserunner who mashes lefties. This fielder would not only solidfy the offense and defense on days when he plays, but he’d also allow the veterans to get some rest by DHing against LHP. This increases the value of each of the players on the team, as better rested players are more effective. Consider for example how hot Melky came out of the all star break.

        We don’t need to remove all of these players but moving out some of them could make for a more complete team with fewer shining stars but more overall effectiveness. I really would like to see AA go with option #3 as it would allow the team to stay competitive for the stars nearing the end of their windows, while allowing for developing the youth on the team. Some of the trades might also net some prospects that will help stock the farm even further.

    • Why don’t they win?

      The bottom of the lineup, as a whole, in Valencia / Reimold / Francisco / Goins / Gose / Pillar / Tolleson / Thole / Rasmus have been performing terribly offensively.

      The top of the lineup in Reyes / Cabrera / Bautista / Lind / Edwin have been pushing it too much and have not been performing well in RISP as a result. Plenty of examples from the last two games where all three have gotten out in RISP situations but manage base hits in non-RISP situations (lately).

      The play at third / 2nd with 4-5 players (Kawasaki, Goins, Francisco, Valencia, Tolleson) there in place of a steady Lawrie has been detrimental to the team. I would prefer that it was the same every day, as the players probably do too. Infield defense has been poor as a result with missed plays and errors because Lawrie is not there and no one is given enough straight time at a position to play exceptionally well.

      The bullpen and starting rotation both have not been reliable across the board. Gibbons is playing with a bit too much desperation and making moves too early. And yeah, a tiny bit of blame goes to AA, not for the mid-season replacement, but for the inability to land a solid 2B and a middle of the line starter in the off-season.

      That’s why the Jays aren’t winning in August.

  18. This team isn’t nearly as bad as they have been playing recently. May proved this team can win a lot of games when it’s firing on all cylinders.

    This season has proved that standing pat doesn’t work. The wait and see approach after last year’s disaster proved futile. They did nothing this winter and payed the price. Then they did nothing at the deadline and it got worse.

    Players got hurt, and a lack of depth buried the team. Sometimes you need to hit bottom before you can crawl back to the top. Exposing the problems leaves the organization with nothing to hide behind.

    All this says to me is that we will find out if this organization really wants to win by what happens this off-season. There can be no more reasonable excuses to calm the fan-base down anymore.

    Shitting the bed may be a blessing in disguise to shake up Rogers enough to actually fix the holes this team has, and become a real contender. Fans will stop coming out to games, and their precious TV ratings will go in to the toilet.

    Wishful thinking, but it’s not outside the realm of possibility.

    • You’re absolutely right that this offseason will be when we discover whether Rogers wants to be a big boy owner, or thinks the 10 years of treating the Toronto market as if it’s the Kansas City market with regards to payroll is the way to go.

      If the Jays add, you’ll know that ownership is listening. If not, then as a fanbase we are going to be fucked.

      • Have you looked at our historical payroll???? That is NOT the problem. It’s management, poor trades, and not having the payroll when they need it. We have traditionally been around 10th in payroll for a while now, that’s not Kansas territory my friend.

        • Jays are #10 in salary. Can’t bitch too much about that, really.

          • The big ticket trade with Miami put the Jays into top ten in payroll.

            Before that, since the Jays were bought by Rogers the Jays have, with one or two blips, been at best the middle of the pack in payroll. In 2012 we were 23 out of 30.

            http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm

            This from an ownership that fully owns the team, the stadium, the television networks and the radio networks. The teams that have that kind of portfolio tend not to put a cap on salary at the trade deadline when the team is in a playoff position. AA had his hands tied at the deadline according what every other GM was telling their media connections, never mind what AA says publicly. He’s just being a good solider.

        • “…and not having the payroll when they need it.”

          This is what I was referring to.

          You can make a big splash and increase payroll for one year, but when you suddenly turn off the tap before you were finished improving the team, then you are still being too cheap to field a contender.

          They keep saying the money is there, so what’s the problem? That’s the question that needs to be answered.

          • How would their problems have been solved by money alone.

            • Other than signing Cano.

            • Sign a free agent pitcher last off-season like they said they needed to.

              Sign a free agent infielder last off-season like they said they needed to.

              Resign Melky this off-season like they absolutely need to.

              This is done with money.

  19. I used to be AA’s biggest fan… I seemed to like most every trade / transaction he made and could see what his ultimate plan was.

    It feels like as soon as the Dickey/Reyes deals didn’t show improvement on the field – he has given up hope and is just throwing crap on the wall hoping something sticks.

    I hate to say this, but this change in attitude make me feel that ownership has pulled in the money reins and AA is tired of dealing with it.

  20. This slide before the end August is a good thing. At least now the Jays management can focus on making changes for next season rather than trying to go for it, still missing out, and getting nothing in return for several player in the off-season.

    ‘Hello Mr. Dombrowski, are you still looking for a closer?’

    ‘Hello Mr. Bean, your teams offense has struggled a bit since the Cespedes deal. I bet Colby Rasmus is just the guy that would re-ignite your team!’

    ‘Hello Mr. Huntington, are you still intereste in Adam Lind?’

    ‘Hello Mr. Moore, it will cost you a bit, but remember how good Melky Cabrera was for your team in 2011, well he’s still that good’

    etc.

    • might as well get something for, say, Cleetus — although, if he goes on to become the player AA hoped he’d be, i’m gonna beat my gerbil.

      hear that, Yum Yum? cross yer wee fingers, ya bastard.

    • Wouldn’t trade Lind, he’s useful and under a good contract.

      Wouldn’t trade Melky, because you reduce the odds of resigning him after that point to zero, potentially piss off your two best players, and you miss out on the QO draft pick.

      I’d trade Colby, but the return is gonna be negligible as the fact he’s sucking I’m sure has gotten around.

      I’d definitely listen on bullpen offers, but again all this is dependent on waivers, and it’s much harder to make a deal under those circumstances.

      • I think trading Melky is unlikely as well because it’s worth at least giving him a qualifying offer in hopes of getting a 1st round draft pick if/when he signs elsewhere, therefore I doubt you’d get a better return for him right now.

        As for Lind, he’s probably unlikely to get dealt as well, however with his history of injuries, if you could get a nice return for him now, I’m ready to move on.

        • Well yeah…I don’t think a big return for anyone on the roster is likely before the end of the season, but if another GM goes all stupid, trade away.

  21. I wonder who’s going to be this years fall guy? Gibbons unfairly?

  22. What a frustrating season….I would gladly welcome the disaster that was 2013 back. That one did not sting nearly as much as this one, so very frustrating to watch. I now get mad at my television on a daily basis, I am filled with sarcasm, I expect the Jays to be behind and lose even when they catch up. Not good times to be a ball fan….fuck me.

  23. I liked the path that AA was on a couple of years ago. Seemed to be “winning” a lot of trades and developing young talent.

    Then the Marlins opportunity came by and it changed his timeline – He followed that up with the Mets deal and focussed on winning now.

    I still think it was a good gamble – just didn’t work out.

    With any payroll restrictions for next year I can’t see this team filling the holes and rebounding. I’m ok with trading our current assets for future assets.

  24. Jays got about 0.7 fWAR from 2B this year, with Tolleson being worth 0.1, Kawasaki being worth 0.2, and Lawrie was worth 1.6, but Lawrie spent only about a quarter of his time at 2B, so we’ll call that 0.4.

    Second basemen that weren’t downright awful this year:

    Cano
    Zobrist
    Kinsler
    Pedroia
    Dozier
    Utley
    Altuve
    Gordon
    Murphy
    Kendrick
    Gennett
    Walker

    Twelve players. That’s the entire list.

    Out of that entire list, the only ones who aren’t on a contender, and therefore might be available, are Dozier, who isn’t arb-eligible until 2016, which means the Twins have no reason to get rid of him, which means they probably wouldn’t trade him; same goes for Gennett, except not until 2017; Utley, who, let’s be honest, we’re probably looking at his last good season right here; Altuve, who is so terrible at fielding 2B that he’ll probably have to be moved off at some point; same thing goes for Walker;

    …which basically leaves Daniel Murphy. The Mets may have been unwilling to trade him up to this point, because he was still arb-eligible. This upcoming season is his last season of arbitration, meaning this winter he’s one year away from free agency, which has been prime trade territory of late. The Mets will no doubt want Norris. What do you think?

    Oh there’s other names too. Bonifacio–who OBP’d .314. And this was a good year for him. Wong, who OBP’d .289. Phillips, who OBP’d .305. These are players we’d be pissed at if they were on the Jays this year, because they’ve been offering the offensive value of Colby Rasmus, but with a little bit more glove.

    Panik and Alcantara have looked good in their first 40 MLB games. A lot of rookies look good in their first 40 games. And the fact that they’re rookies makes it unlikely they’ll be moved.

    Going further down the list brings us to sub-1.0 WAR players. I don’t see the point in going any further, because anyone that low is either a “hope for a lucky bounce-back” candidate, or is not a solution.

    So. You’re AA. How do you fix 2B?

    • Maybe the Tigers would do a Devon Travis for Casey Janssen deal right now. Apparently they are considering offering him for Chad Qaulls?

      Another 2B that I would like include Josh Rutledge, but you are right, there are not too many decent options out there, and the good ones aren’t going anywhere or are on the decline side of their careers.

    • how about, move Reyes to 2B and fish for shortstops instead?

      • Or keep Lawrie at 2b and look for 3B’s

      • So I’m dumb and this is kind of not relevant to the conversation, but if Lawrie’s strengths at 3B are his range and his arm, and he’s capable enough at 2B, why can’t he play short?

        • Something about him not liking the all the defensive responsibilities of having to play the middle infield; he feels better when he doesn’t have to think as much about defense.

          And he is right, playing 2B probably requires the most defensive responsibility of all the infield positions that doesn’t involve being apart of the battery. You’re the most involved for turning DP’s whether it be throwing to the SS, or taking throws from SS/3B, and are responsible for covering one of the biggest holes in the infield if the 1B has to hold someone on.

          But I agree with your point about possibly moving him to SS, he has the range and arm, and would have +power at that position as opposed to Reyes (y’know provided he’s not on the DL).

    • Shit, you have to though, don’t you?

    • Make Reyes live at Roberto Alomar’s house all winter

    • How dare you use logic and research!

  25. According to Fangraphs:

    RA Dickey: 1.6 WAR

    Travis D’Arnaud: 1 WAR

    Mark Buehrle: 2.6 WAR

    Henderson Alvarez: 2.1 WAR

    Jose Reyes: 2.8 WAR

    When you consider we also gave up Marisnick, Nicolino and Syndergaard, and also consider that Buehrle is due $19m next year and Reyes is due $22m for the next 3 years, hindsight is 20/20, AA gambled hard on two trades that have hamstrung this team without sufficient improvement. He shies away from free agency because it’s too expensive, but then he went out and traded cheap and controllable talent for the backloaded ends of contracts that he never would have signed himself.

    Great to get out under the Wells contract, Rasmus was a good steal at the time, and locking up Bautista and EE were both strokes of genius. But the rest of the roster construction leaves a lot to be desired.

    I like AA for the most part, and I’m happy to have him ride it out another year to see if this roster can bounce back. I think there’s a good chance that it can to some degree, as I don’t believe it’s a .500 ball club.

    But he will live and die by those two trades, and there isn’t much rope left for AA to play with as far as I’m concerned. Rogers is not the problem either – they opened the wallets when he asked them to.

    • No they are the problem, cause they aren’t flexible.

    • The Florida trade was fine, the Dickey trade was not.

      • I think it’s the exact opposite. I wish Dickey were better, but he’s not getting paid all that much. The Marlins deal, on the other hand. Pretty much every asset the Jays moved to Florida had value; the 2 the Jays still have are overpaid and the 2 that were not overpaid had to be let go for nothing.

        If Johnson, gamble that he was, was the centrepiece of that, they should have acquired just Johnson. Or if Anthopoulos felt he really needed an innings-eater and and a lead off hitter, he should have acquired just Reyes and Buehrle and held onto more prospect capital. Instead, he totally backed himself into a corner on payroll and lack of surplus assets.

        • Reading comments from bottom to top, I now realize I just kind of restated what Nes wrote.

        • Nicolino’s lookin’ good in AA; Marisnick’s hitting .277 / 0.8 WAR in a couple dozen games in Houston. those two might sting most, when all is said and done.

        • It was a big swing. If he connected and Johnson had been the guy everyone in baseball was expecting the Jays would have landed the a recent MVP, a Cy Young candidate and a damn fine innings eater for a bunch of unproven commodities. It didn’t work out but who at the time could have predicted Johnson would have been that bad?

          • Lot’s of people.

            • Johnson was a pre-season Cy Young candidate for a lot of publications. There was some injury risk, but it was still thought of as a good trade, and Johnson and Reyes were the talent centrepieces.

              I thought he was a great target, but I was surprised when the deal got as big as it did. Turns out we ended up with a Mike Sirotka for the new millennium.

              • the florida deal was ridiculously good at the time considering that they acquired a host of former all-stars in their prime without having to part with even one of their top three prospects. the guys who they traded, although reasonable prospects, all had some question marks. i don’t think that nicolino is a top 100 prospect anymore and marsinick has been traded again since being dealt to florida. the only downside to that deal was the assumption of the back-loaded contracts. but that is the price you pay. are you really upset that you have jose reyes playing in the middle of your infield? i still think that the dickey deal was the one which was out of character for AA and which is capable of criticism- and not just with the benefit of hindsight.

                • @ upshaw and doboaso – I think to go to the place of saying Nicolino has not advanced, Marisnick has been moved again, and Alvarez’s improvement being unpredictable is to miss the point, which is that all the pieces they moved in the trade still have trade value today, which would benefit the Jays and give them flexibility, and they acquired guys who make more than they’re worth and tie up flexibility on the budget side.

                  Johnson alone would have been an OK gamble – if he walks, hopefully you recoup some of what you gave up to get him in a comp 1st round pick. Reyes and Buehrle are both good players, but not worth what they make.

                • I’m ok with the Dickey deal. He’s been solid and a relative bargain $wise. Reyes at $20M, no thanks.

            • Such as? 2008 to 2012 he was worth 1.9, 5.5, 6.1, 1.6, 3.5 WAR according to fangraphs.

              Nobody questioned his talent. Lots of people questioned whether he could stay healthy and teams were all lining up for his free agency expecting him to be in the $100M club.

    • He went all in with a pair of jacks preflop and got burned, he should hang for that.

    • Can any of us say with a straight face we saw this from Henderson Alvarez though?

      • Yes. I thought he was pretty good and was a little shocked when they traded him. He had poise and an unusual capacity to succeed.
        I also thought Romero sucked and couldn’t understand the derision I’d receive from my friends on that opinion

        • Anything statistically back that up, or just gut feelings? Those are things that were said about Gustavo Chacin too; Alvarez had a 5.18 FIP in his 30 starts in 2012, and never did anything in the minors that would scream success at the major league level.

          • Alvarez also had a career low (and ridiculously impossible to repeat/sustain) 2.6% home run/fly ball rate last season, and 10% (2nd lowest) this year. 2011-12 Jays he was 15 and 18%. Part of that is Rogers Centre to Marlins Field (or whatever the hell its called) but mostly I’d say its a lot of luck that he’s enjoyed.

  26. A question for you all to about AA.

    I want to keep AA. I think he’s made some really good moves – but he’s also made some mistakes. But mistakes are to be expected from anyone in any job. So the question I have isn’t about whether he can pick talent and make smart moves….

    the real question is…

    do you trust AA is someone who can learn from his mistakes?

    • I do. If I didn’t, I’d be more inclined to want a change.

      I think he deserves more time. I also think that no other GM is going to be able to do any better with the caps Rogers has put on all divisions since they realized they won’t be able to turn a profit on their insane hockey contract.

    • I think he’s already shown an ability to learn on the job and make adjustments as needed. And as much as the trades haven’t worked out in turning the team into a contender, I would rather have a GM who’s willing to take those risks to try to build around a core than someone who plays it safe all the time. They were calculated risks and they’ve backfired, but pretty much everyone around baseball thought they were moves that immediately put the Jays into contention. There’s no way I would take him out of the job right now.

      • Yeah, I l like he took the risk and built around the existing core to make it stronger, as opposed to waiting around and letting them rot ie Bats and EE. Honestly I am truly surprised rogers decided to turn off the tap, it’s clear they were not very flexible with payroll when they would even allow a $14.5 million signing of Santana. Which would have been a very nice upgrade, with and without hindsight. Like you’re so close, and yet when you try and plug holes, you just shut off the easiest avenue to upgrade, AA is forced to try and be creative, but it’s obviously a lot harder to pull off without depleting your farm.

        • It would be interesting if AA had gone the cubs route and sold off Bautista and EE 2 years ago, we would be like the Cubs but heavy on the pitching, and who knows what we would have gotten in return.

    • I agree with Philbert here.
      I’ll add that it’s obvious to me that AA thought he’d have tinkering room,in regards to payroll, to add the neccesary pieces.
      All the signs were there that’s what he was expecting.IMO.
      He filled the holes that needed filling along the way and was hoping to complete the job but the tap was turned off.Rightly or wrongly,we can debate.
      If he knew at the time, that 130 mil was the absolute upper limit, do you think he would’ve still taken on the salary dump from the Marlins?I doubt it.

  27. Just a thought, any chance Washington would move Bryce Harper? It seems they’ve been unhappy with him lately. That would seem to solve the CF issues for the next few years.

    • Injuries.

      Also

      Dalton Pompey.

    • He would certainly be ridiculously expensive.

      • Likely the cost would be prohibitive.

        Though, you never no if they want to load up for a playoff run this year maybe they would be interested in a package of Pompey, Melky Cabrera, Dickey or Buehrle and say Norris?

        I expect they’d probably want either Bautista or Encarnacion in return though.

        Also, Pompey has done well, but he’s stil a prospect and may never be a good major leaguer. With Bautista and Encarnacion on the team, nows the time to add a bat like Harpers. Then try to improve the starting pitching in the off-season.

      • What would you give up for him, though?

        Huge upside if he puts it all together, which is still pretty likely given his age. He’d be even better if his manager wasn’t a moron.

    • That’s a clown question, bro.

  28. The team’s offence is poorly constructed in that , against RHP, our top 6 are usually fine ( when Lawrie plays) ,but the bottom 3 have been weak most of the year (only 5 against LHP , however as Lind is no good). I mentioned that when Lind and Encarnacion came back, that a caveat was we had them available in June when the hitting stopped so why should it change when they came back and it basically hasn’t.
    While JB and EE get on a lot, it is then often incumbent on the 6-8 hitters in the lineup to “move em over, get em in”. When they are hittings homers it doesn’t matter as much that the 6-8 guys hit 225 with no power or abilty to move runners over. But, when the HRs dry up like they have ( Lind with fucking 4-he’s like KAWA, almost FFS) then the 6-8 guys gotta do more than just take a few pitches.
    So many times , maybe we score a run and have 2 on because JB and EE do their thing, or is happening now, Pitchers pitch around EE, knowing they can easily dispose of the Rasmus’ and Valencia;s and Tholes of the group. It’s a third world fucking lineup 6-9 almost every night-how can you win 12 of 14 or whatever with that shitpile?
    And, against LHP. it’s a shitpile 5-9
    So, on days when Reyes and/or Melky don’t go 2-5 or better they don’t score at all FFS.
    Couple allof this, with the fact they are near the bottom in SBs, near the bottom in executed hit and runs, near the bottom in squeezes, safety squeezes, bunt and runs, and bunt base hits, and they cannot manufacture many runs either. it is what I mean by they have a set of good players but not a good team. The bottom of that batting order is bad, has been bad now for 3 years and must be addressed or these variations will continue.
    An infielder with a half decent stick that plays e’day and is not a plattoon player is a must, 1 SP is a must, and if Gose can replace Rasmus and at least have a high OBP, it will present some opportunities for others in the line-up
    Forward Soviet, FFS
    So it goes

    • I don’t know about the small ball stuff, just want to say that Encarnacion and Lind have only just come back and I imagine it will take a bit of time for their production to also come back.

  29. But, understand, they were in full health in June when the stink began, and we still have it. Those collectible smurfs we have at 2B, for starters, Izturis, Getz, Kawa, Tolleson,Goins have all got to go. Collectivley 0 WAR and 1HR from the bunch ( Tollesons was as a 3B I believe). Fuk, makes me pine for KJ

    • 2B is a wasteland pretty much across MLB. So very impact guys.

      • Very few impact guys. Makes me wonder if D first is the way to go.

        • The best thing would be to take a flier on a veteran I guess. Urgh, doesnt help that all of the free agent 2nd baseman sans Cano were garbarge this year.

          • Muni at second, sign Lowrie to play short with Goins spelling them. Trade Reyes.

            • I like Muni, but he shouldn’t be playing everyday on a team that wants to contend.

              • I agree but I like his moxie and think he deserves some more opportunity. If the jays could sign Lowrie (someone commented on the garbage FAs this summer, it’s true) they could conceivably rotate 5 guys through 2nd,SS and 3rd an use the savings from moving Reyes to keep Melky.
                I realize Reyes is probably better than any other option at SS but $20M is ugly and I’m a sucker for effort, it’s contagious. So is dogging it and Reyes is a fucking dog if you ask me.

  30. Wayyyy too negative around here. If you can’t see that unprecedented injuries to core players messed this season up, I don’t know what to tell you. Look at May. You have to be excited for this group to come back hungry for next season.

    Get your heads out of your asses. This is the best Jays roster possibly ever, top to bottom including high end prospects. Alex has done a great job. He can only control what he can control.

    So ridiculous reading this crap.. I feel for Stoeten hard..

    • LMFAO

    • You’re a moron if you think this is the best Jays team ever.

      • I think this is the best Jays team since 1993.

        But he said best Jays team ever. Really? Better than Alomar/Olerud/Molitor/Carter/Henderson? That team just destroys the 2014 Jays at offense, and that’s what the 2014 Jays are good at.

        • Really? I would say that the 2011, 2010, or 2008 teams would have all run away with this division this year.

          Maybe if you go by the “on paper” this is a great Jays team, but we all know that on papeer doesn’t mean anything. Results matter.

          for example, they won 86 games like they in 2008 when the ALE was an absolute meat grinder (TB – 97 wins, Bos – 96 wins, NY – 89 wins). They probably won’t win 86 games THIS year when the ALE is dogshit.

          • The 2011 team looks good now, but let’s not forget Edwin wasn’t Edwin yet, we only had Lawrie for 1/4 of the season, and before Lawrie got called up Thames was our fourth-best offensive player with a .313 OBP. That’s not a good offense. And then every starting pitcher other than Romero had a 4.72 ERA or worse. The 1/3rd of a season by Villanueva, Alvarez, and Litsch ended up around the ~4.00 mark, which was good, but that’s only two good starters. Recall, Alvarez wasn’t Alvarez yet. Our worst starter this season out of our five regulars is 4.68, which is better than our second-best regular starter that season. That’s not a good team–they pythag’d 79 wins.

            The 2008 and 2010 teams are arguable. That 2008 team was an OBP machine with a great rotation, but had one player with 20 HRs–exactly 20 HRs.

    • agree: way too much negative — fanatically negative, more precisely
      disagree: best Jays roster ever — it’s a good team, but the best ever it ain’t

      • The 1983-1993 Jays would like to have a word with you.

        And for what its worth, I find the discussion above to be pretty damned good by internet standards. No one should be happy where the Jays are, but it’s mostly “what next?” talk rather than “FIRE EVERYBODY!”

        • Hear hear!

        • last night’s “game threat” got ugly, though, eh? yeeesh.

          they’re like cockroaches, the crazies, showing up when the lights go dim and posters like you and the bean weasel and so on aren’t around.

    • @Anthopolized….Wilner is that you?

    • WAMCO called. They think you’re a fucking idiot.

  31. Looking at the free agent list for next year…great Caesar’s ghost, is it a bunch of crap for the most part.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/02/2015-mlb-free-agents.html

    I feel less bad for Colby…the CF market is fucking dire.

  32. I love how everybody is pointing the finger at the bottom of the order when the team has a top 5 offence in baseball.

    You know what would help the offence the most? Not having to score 6 runs every game!

    You know what would help the bullpen the most? Not having to pitch 4 innings every game!

    The problem with the 2014 Jays (and 2013…and 2012…and 2011…and 2010…) is the starting pitching!!!

    If Clayton Kershaw was on the Jays, thereby moving every starter down a peg and some into the bullpen, the Jays would be a 90 win team. Period, end of story.

  33. Santos DFA’d again

  34. Morosi has a pretty scathing piece on the Jays that just went up, won’t let me link to it here though.

    Huge garbage clown, that guy.

    • “The August collapse will prompt a number of difficult questions for Blue Jays ownership and management this offseason. The Jays have a franchise record payroll, yet are on pace to finish with a tie for their ninth-best record in the 21 seasons since winning the ’93 World Series.

      Again: This is an average team.

      Two seasons after the acquisitions of Jose Reyes, Mark Buehrle, and R.A. Dickey, how much progress have the Jays truly made? This could have been the year Toronto won the division, particularly with the Yankees and Red Sox experiencing downturns. Instead, the Jays wasted another prime year of power-hitting lineup cornerstones Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion. Now the team will enter this offseason needing to fill two outfield spots, with Melky Cabrera (.830 OPS this year) and Colby Rasmus set to enter free agency.”

  35. This team, full of it’s veteran core completely shit the bed this month and have taken themselves out of any playoff conversation. 2014 is over for the Jays.

    This season and this month are proof that this core simply cannot compete. IF they could get Melky to sign a team friendly contract, which he would have to do because the Jays won’t pay any player fair market value, then maybe you try for another year. But I highly doubt it.. move Reyes and Behurle to start, cash in on EE and Bautista and start rebuilding

    The Jays are just good enough to fuck with their fanbase and piss us off.

    Go jays go!

    • One month does not prove anything.

      This is all nonsense, by the way.

      • Well… somewhat.
        I do think it’s fair to say that what happens with Melky will be (and should be) a good indicator for how this offseason will/should play out.

        If you don’t bring Melky back, do you continue with the core or do you ‘start over’? I think it’s a valid question…. If you do bring him back, then i think you’re declaring that you want to go for it at least one more time.

        • I agree entirely.

        • EE/Bats/Reyes/Melky have more than one more year in them…. 2-3 at least in my estimation. Any order that starts with those 4 can’t be all that bad. It’s all about the pitching.

          • that’s where a lot of folks are being fooled. The bottom of our lineup, even when healthy has produced basically 0 WAR. This has resulted in a lot of LOB despite our thunder. Look at that clusterfuck called 2B and all the smurfs we used. Jeezus Louise.
            So it goes

        • Do you honestly think the Jays will pay market value for Melky? Not a chance, their two best players are on two of the best contracts for a vet in the league.

          The big boys of the league will come knocking and he will get a contract double of what the Jays will offer.

      • Why do you need proof when the facts are right in front of you. You can’t ignore the facts bud… A good GM would figure out pretty quickly that this is a team of some good to very good players that simply are not winners.

        The Jays will be dumb about it though and ride out the EE and Bautista contracts, they’ll walk, the jays will get zip and in 2017 the team will be a steaming pile of dog shit.

        • Or, you know, you could look at those amazing players and realize the core of an excellent, competitive team is already in place for a very reasonable sum…and then plug the remaining holes.

          Easier said than done, I realize.

          • There are some very good players on this team, not winners… I can’t honestly say they’re competitive though.

            • The whole “they aren’t winners” thing is completely absurd though.

              • Bautista
                Edwin
                Reyes
                Melky

                All have won nothing and I wonder how many post season games played between the 4 of them?

                • Yeah, you’re right–we don’t need actual good baseball players. We need players with that magical winning pixie dust in their back pockets.

                  • Never said we didn’t need them, said they aren’t winners.

                    If Rogers is willing to up the payroll and bring is some help then go for it, they won’t and these 4 can’t make the team a winner and they have proven over their careers they can’t win.

                    • Because obviously it has nothing to do with those guys having been on teams that weren’t that good.

                      Enlighten us; tell us all what Jose Bautista should be doing besides getting on base, hitting homeruns, and driving in runs (all on a riduculously team-friendly contract)…

                    • So let me get this straight, Batsbird, if we traded for Carlos Beltran at the deadline would our team be suddenly led by a borderline halll of famer and we would magically start to win alot more games because he’s won the worlds series?

                      Ignoring that he’s kind of garbage this year. I can name you hundreds of scrubs who were on worlds series teams, but were compeltly garbage for their careers, and plenty of players who were fantastic but never sniffed the finals.

                    • /slow clap

                • How much post-season and world series experience did Roy Halladay have before he was traded? Did he suddenly become a “winner’ after that trade?

                  • Bautista should be moved because of the return he can bring and the fact that the team isn’t good enough, not because he is a bad player..lol

                • Melky helped the giants win it all with his regular season contributions despite the suspension, and Reyes has at least been in the playoffs.

  36. Santos DFA’d again.

  37. Is it now clear now that the super hot streak in May/June was the anomaly that tricked us into thinking this was a competitive team? If not, how do we explain the sub .500 record across the rest of the 4 months so far – injuries!? The pitching has been relatively healthy and EE and Lind have been back for a few losing series now….

    • It is not so simple.

      • The top of the rotation starters are journeyman 4+ ERA guys who accomplish not much else but eating innings. That’s not going to cut it for any team that wants to rise above mediocrity.

        • In case you forgot, our offence died while EE and Lind were gone and pretty much the entire pitching rotation were pitching really well. Now both teh offence and pitching left somewhere, though yesterday’s loss was really unlucky.

          • The offence died before they left. It just got worse. They went 6 weeks with virtually no offense, when most everyone was healthy.

          • I haven’t forgotten. I also haven’t forgotten that the team ERA is 11th in the AL. Yes, they play in a hitter’s park and face tough AL East squads (which haven’t been half as dangerous as years past). It’s all about the pitching.

    • the Jays were 15-11 in July….

      the pitching and defense has to be better though….

      • Posted this yesterday night.

        This is the Jay’s August:

        Runs scored: 30th in MLB
        HR’s: 30th in MLB
        OPS: 29th in MLB
        RBIs: 30th in MLB
        ERA: 27th in MLB
        WHIP: 27th in MLB

  38. My fav memory of the 2014 season is definitely listening to Wilner scoreboard watching and boasting about how big of a lead the Jays had over the Yanks/O’s during Jays Talk in May.

    Oh, & also when Gobbons commented on how the win streak the team went on this year was totally different than the one it went on last year.

    • Please fuck off

      • A convincing argument, now tell everyone that didn’t think this team was good enough after last year’s performance and without significant changes made, that the only reason the blue jays are hot garbage is some people were just too darn negative.

    • Great having a manager with a career record under .500… they really know what they’re doing eh

      • Apparently people in the know know that managers don’t matter. As long as they’re capable of filling out lineup cards and managing bullpens that’s all that you can ask for. Pay no attention to the Orioles before and after switching to Buck Showalter mid-season or what Maddon’s done in TB – they have no affect on the outcome of games apart from not blowing it.

        Seriously – Gibbons lost his job here, couldn’t catch on anywhere outside of his hometown Double A team, then got re-hired to coach a team thought to be a WS contender and led them to two straight horrible seasons. It’s time to hire someone with a proven track record, at the very least to shut up the idiots who think managers can be capable of motivating players.

  39. As disappointing as 2014 has been, it’s hard to see where the team goes. AA has made a bunch of bad moves, but also some good ones (and, at least on paper, he’s drafted fairly well.) If the issue is money, he does need to better construct a roster to live within those parameters, though.

    Re-signing Melky needs to happen. Happ’s option should be exercised. I’m not sure what to make of Casey’s second-half collapse: is the magic gone? Lind isn’t a bad player, but his platoon requirements and positional inflexibility suggest to me that he’s not the best fit for the team. Colby and Morrow should go.

    If money is indeed a problem, AA needs to seriously consider trading Buerhle and Reyes. They are both good players, but they have terrible contracts. Keeping them and not adding anyone new is another recipe for a .500ish 2015. I hope, of course, that money isn’t the problem it seems to be, as I like both of those guys on the team (although Reyes should be moved off ss).

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